Woman's Hour - Claudia Winkleman, Nurses' strike, Baroness Kidron and Online Safety Bill, Iran diaries, Actor Naomi Ackie, Medieval women

Episode Date: December 17, 2022

How to hang the loo roll to where to store the mustard - TV presenter Claudia Winkleman on the domestic tasks that need to done a certain way in the home.The Health Minister Helen Whately on what the government is doing to resolve the row over nurses' pay. The latest on the online harms bill with Baroness Beeban Kidron, the founder of the 5Rights Foundation which campaigns to make the digital world safer for children and young people.British actor Naomi Ackie on playing Whitney Houston in new film Whitney Houston: I Wanna Dance.Following the death in custody of 22 year old Mahsa Amini who had been detained by the Iranian morality police for not wearing her headscarf correctly, we hear the anonymous diaries of female protestors in the country. The discovery of an ancient female burial site in Northamptonshire has been described as one of the most important finds ever discovered in Britain. This woman is thought to be a Christian leader of significant wealth and her jewellery is considered an outstanding example of craftsmanship for this early medieval period. Lyn Blackmore, from the Museum of London and Irina Dumitrescu, Professor for Medieval English Literature at the University of Bonn discuss.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. A few highlights from a week of excellent interviews and discussions. So put the kettle on, grab a biscuit or two and settle in. Coming up, the actor Naomi Aki on playing Whitney Houston in a new biopic of her life. The voices of Iranian women recorded in secret and shared with the BBC. We'll hear about the most important female burial site ever discovered in Britain.

Baroness Beeban Kidron on the online safety bill and keeping children safe. And the most important topic of the week, how do you put the loo roll on the holder? Over or under Claudia Winkerman and her domestic gripes? But first, thousands of nurses in England, Wales and Northern Ireland went on the first of a two-day long strike over pay. Talks with the government earlier this week dramatically collapsed between the head of the Royal College of Nursing, Pat Cullen, and the Health Secretary, Steve Barclay. She accused him of using bully boy tactics and he said the government will not meet the nurses' pay demands as money would have to be taken from the front line of the NHS. The Royal College of Nursing wants a 19% pay rise and says below inflation increases are compromising care by making it hard to attract and retain nurses.

The government argues this proposed salary hike is unaffordable and wants nurses to make do with what was offered to them under the independent pay review. With the Conservatives in government for 12 years, Emma asked the Health Minister Helen Whateley on the morning of the strike day how she could let it get to the point where enough nurses felt it was safer for patients in the long run to go on strike rather than go to work. I'm really disappointed at their decision to strike. I think a backdrop to this, of course, if you take the national position and look where we are, is we know that we have got a high level of inflation. Why have we got that? Well, firstly, it going off that coming out of the pandemic as we saw demand exceed supply and then as you'll know but let's give the context it's important

the war in ukraine which has driven up energy prices which has driven up costs which has led into that inflation so that's why we have the big challenge for us as a country and for the economy of inflation and the government knows we have to keep inflation under control. Sorry, the nurses have been asking... Sorry, if you're going to talk about context and you're going to go back and you're going to bring the war in Ukraine into it, the nurses have been asking about pay since the beginning of this year, before Russia invaded Ukraine.

It's this government's decision, and inaction you could argue, that has led to a situation where there's been no meeting of minds about pay this year. Yeah, but the led to a situation where there's been no meeting of minds about pay this year. Yeah, but the vote to strike specifically. So, yes, the nurses' position goes back a long time to earlier in the year, but they've much more recently voted specifically. What did you think was going to happen? If you don't engage with people, what do you think is going to happen?

These people, these nurses that you clapped for, that stood on the steps, all these ministers who had to work through the pandemic, what do you think they were going to go and do? Just make a cup of tea and say, OK, then, well, they won't pay us anymore. You keep interrupting me, which is making it really hard to answer your question, but I will do my best.

No, but you brought the war in Ukraine. Sorry, it was you, Minister, that brought the war in Ukraine into a question about how you could have let it over 12 years get to this point. And I'm making the point, it's a much bigger, longer crisis. Yes, the process for arriving at pay goes back several months. And you'll know, I'm sure your listeners will know

because it's been talked about, that the way it's worked out is with the independent pay review body, that the Royal College of Nurses and Unions have an input into that process. So they're listened to in that process. But that process tries to take the politics out of pay and it tries to make it a fair pay settlement. And it looks at, for instance, it looks at inflation, it looks at private sector pay rates and the change to private sector pay,

which in the period is approximately 4% to 6% increase. It looks at what people in the period is approximately four to six percent increase it looks at what people in the workforce with similar levels of qualifications are being paid in other sectors it looks at things like recruitment and retention it takes a picture in the round and then comes up with a recommendation on pay for nurses that was on average around four to five percent with those on the lower bands getting up to 9%, so those with the lowest pay getting a higher pay rise. That is the fair proposal which the independent pay body came to. As I said, taking on board the input from the Royal College of Nursing,

that the government has supported, supported putting in place that recommendation. I heard your answer there, but I do also have to be able to come back at different points while you're making several. What if the independent pay body, no one's doubting the independence on this programme, what if it's wrong or out of date? The gentleman who used to run it told my colleagues on the Today programme, we're living in extraordinary circumstances. And ministers could, having had that report filed in February, since when you will know inflation has changed dramatically, you could, ministers and Steve Barclay could,

invite that independent pay body to look at it again. But ministers have not, will you? Well, the independent pay review body is already looking at pay for next year. So what we're talking about is pay for this year, actually. And those pay rises have already gone into nurses' pay. So this is about this year. The inflation that we've got right now will be played into the... But they can't wait. ...polls on recommendations... They're on strike now. And they're going to go on strike next Tuesday.

What are you doing in advance of that? You can't just say, yeah, yeah, this independent body's going to look at it next year. Are ministers going to ask the independent pay body to look at it now? So the independent pay body has given their recommendation. It's out of date. Well, really not, because it applies to this last year. It can't. It was published in February. People can go and read it. The inflation rates have changed. So that's why the inflation for this year gets looked into pay for next year as is the case

for most people's pay so of course the health secretary's door is completely open and we've heard from nurses i've spoken to many nurses and and their unhappiness is not just about pay we know that working conditions that hours that making sure that you've got a full number of staff on the shift these things are really important that's one reason for instance why we're increasing the number of nurses in the nhs we've got over 30 000 more nurses working in the nhs than in 2009 you've still got nearly fit you've still got sorry on that i have to come in you still nearly got 50 000 vacancies yes of course there are still vacancies but we are addressing that problem by recruiting more people. You can't boast about having more people with nearly 50,000 vacancies. I can see on my screen you're laughing at this.

I'm not laughing. I'm not laughing at that. I'm laughing at the lunacy of potentially boasting about more nurses. When you're right, it's not just about pay. People are talking to us. We've heard from nurses this week. Many of them listen to Woman's Hour. I'm laughing at the idea that you think that's a defence when there are nearly 50,000 vacancies. I really care about the conditions for nurses working.

I've spoken to so many nurses. Every single one of those conversations, I can recall, has been primarily about, well, I wish there were more of us on the job. I wish we didn't have to rely on so many agents. And to that point, Helen, I know you care about this. You were the Minister for Patient Safety. You've worked in health for a long time. It's something you're deeply connected to.

At one point, I believe you were tipped as a future health secretary. Maybe that'll still be the case. I'm not doubting that you care. What I'm trying to understand is, what do you think attracts somebody to a job? Why there are nearly 50,000 vacancies will be that they can get a higher salary, some of these individuals, in supermarkets. So pay may not be the only thing that you're

hearing about, but it is a cornerstone of people's ability to live and, as the Conservatives talk about, get on in life. Well, that's one reason why we've actually increased the starting pay for nurses and brought that up over the years. And as I mentioned a moment ago, made sure that those who are on the lowest paid bands in the NHS are getting up to a 9% pay increase. We want people to be well paid, we want people to be able to afford to pay the bills. But of course, you have to make sure as independent pay everybody does that you have to look more broadly at all the levels of pay. And as government, you have to take a step back and remember that we want to make sure that our public services are affordable. The government commissioned a report out this week by the King's Fund, which said, this is a government commissioned report,

that the NHS is paying the price of a decade of neglect and underinvestment by successive conservative governments. This is a government commissioned report. I'm sure you will have seen it. Quote, a dearth of long term investment. I mentioned 47,000 vacancies in nursing alone. There is no one left to blame but the conservative government for the conditions that you describe, never mind the pay. I don't accept that we have not been investing in the NHS. We're putting record amounts of money into the NHS. We continue to fund the NHS when other areas of the public sector have been squeezed.

I mean, specifically on nurses. Last year year there was a wider public sector pay freeze, but 3% more funding went into the NHS. In the autumn statement... So you don't accept this independent report? You don't accept it? The NHS and social care got more money while other areas of the public service are facing really tough times.

So actually we are continuing to fund the NHS. As a health minister, this report was ordered by the Department of Health and Social Care. You're the minister for social care. You don't accept the findings of it. Well, actually, on social care, something that has been recognised is that we need to put more money into social care. That's why in the autumn statement, social care is getting an extra £75 billion pounds over the next two years which is particularly to increase the amount of social care that we're giving partly because we know we've got people in hospital who'll be better off at home and we can do that better by having more social

but you you don't accept the other part about the nhs a dearth of investment by the conservatives and the only i don't accept that at all no we have been steadily investing in the nhs we've increased the number of doctors in training 25 percent more medical school why are seven million on a on a waiting list well we know that the pandemic has had a big hit not just the pandemic this report says it exacerbated it but it is not just the pandemic. Ministers constantly are blaming that, but this was already there before the pandemic. So it's true. So demand for NHS care was already going up for the pandemic, but that has made it much, much harder. We know that that's created the backlogs, that people didn't come in to be diagnosed and treatments couldn't happen. That's why we're working so hard to get those back drugs down with the NHS. That's why they're even more frustrating. And I just say to nurses,

please don't strike because we really... Well, they are. So can I just read you a message? They are. They are on strike now. There's a message here to you. I am a nurse. The government right now through you, Helen, is portraying pay completely incorrectly. Morale is the lowest I have ever known it. We're doing the job of multiple nurses. It is dangerous. And most people I know are looking for jobs elsewhere. I love being a nurse, but I will not work like this anymore.

What are you doing between now and next Tuesday to stop this individual, if they are able to, if they want to, going on strike? The Secretary of State, his door is open for the RCN to come and speak to him and speak to him about some of the things that are affecting morale. They went. As he said, morale is really, is indeed low. It's been low for too many years. I know from the conversations, because I've heard what you've read out just then. What's that mean, the door is open?

I actually heard that a few years ago. I heard the same thing. Helen, sorry, I just again have to pick you up. I know you've had those conversations and with respect, you've said that and you've said how much they mean to you

and that you remember them. That is important. I've heard that. But just saying the health secretary's door is open and I should say we've invited him on this programme every day this week.

We're grateful you're here. Thank you for your time. It's an important day to talk to you. But you say his door is open. And yet Pat Cullen said to me on this programme 48 hours ago that when she went for a meeting with him, not only did he keep her waiting, she talked about his belligerence. And she actually said that bully boy tactics were deployed by the health secretary and his manner in that way in dealing with her as the leader of a majority female workforce. So the door was open, she went into it, and that's what she found. Does your health secretary have a woman problem?

No, not at all. I mean, I know Pat, I've spoken to Pat, and I was really surprised to hear her use some of that language. Clearly that's not my experience at all of working with the Health Secretary. I know how much he respects nurses. I know how much he cares about the NHS workforce, nurses and many others. And I know actually how determined he is to try and make sure that we give people the care they need. We bring down some of the backlogs, that people are waiting for care, that we make sure that people can get ambulances, get into hospital if they need to be in hospital and discharged if they shouldn't be in hospital.

I know how much he cares about all of these things and the workforce that we need to do that. And I do know that his door is open. He's ready and willing to talk. And I do hope that Pat will return to him and have a conversation with him. So it's Pat's fault now. It's the nursing side fault. They've got to go in. No, no, sorry. But to what you've just said, I've asked, I think twice now, I'll ask a third time. Between now and next Tuesday to avoid a larger nursing strike, your response isn't to call the independent pay review body again. It doesn't seem to be around anything else that I could sort of glean. I've tried to write it down what you've said.

It is to know that the health secretary's door is open and for Pat Cullen to walk back through it. That's the only thing that's going to happen between now and next Tuesday. Even when we heard the prime minister say yesterday that there are of this strike today, that there are millions of people across this country who will have their health care disrupted because of the strike. That's it. The door is open. That's the only action. I just want to pick up one. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I'm not blaming anyone for this. I don't think that's a helpful way to go about this. And I felt you tried to do that with what I said. So one thing that has been happening over the last few days and weeks and will continue to happen is all the conversations about making sure that as much service as possible continues to go on in the NHS as many patients are seen and looked after as can possibly be yes but my answer to your first

question is not going to change it's the same as it was the first time you asked asked me because because it's the same question which is of course the Secretary of State's door is open for conversation but is he going to do anything differently because he won't talk about pay who asked me, because it's the same question, which is, of course, the Secretary of State's door is open for conversation. But is he going to do anything differently because he won't talk about pay? Will he talk about pay? He's asking me the same question. So is the answer no? I'm going to give you the same answer,

which is absolutely his door is open for conversation. And I would encourage all those involved to have conversations. The Health Minister talking to Emma on Thursday's programme. Now from Walthamstow to Hollywood, British actor Naomi Ackie takes centre stage in the new biopic Whitney Houston, I Wanna Dance, which comes out on the 26th of December. She spent a year learning to talk, sing and move like Whitney

for the blockbuster film which documents the life and career of the woman who became known as The Voice. I started by asking her how she got the part. My agents called with just, you know, normal, like, would you like to audition for this thing? I think there was a bit more excitement than other jobs before. They were kind of like, yeah, this is a big one. I was very reluctant at first to audition.

Really? Why? Yeah, it was too big for me. That's what it felt like. I was kind of like, I'm very aware of my limitations. And I was like, I don't know if I can do that. And after a lot of phone calls from my team, you know, I thought, okay, well, at least I'll just try. I'll send in a self-tape and we'll see what happens.

Did you sing in the self-tape? I did, yes. Can I just say at this point, I cried from beginning to end. Oh, goodness. Because It's Whitney and, you know, woman of my generation. She is just the soundtrack to my life. Her whole life. And also we know the ending.

Exactly. So the minute I see you on screen singing, it was just floods. I think a lot of people are getting that reaction. And to me, like, that's so lovely because it's the love of Whitney. Yeah. And I think it's like reminding people like, oh, my gosh, she was like so much a part of all of our lives. This is exactly why it's such a huge role to step into. But you sing in the movie, you dance in the movie,

so you're a bit of a triple threat. Triple threat. I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't know. The singing, luckily, Whitney does sing the majority of the film, but there is a little bit of singing from me too to fill in some of the dramatic beats that were needed. And then during filming for the film, but there is a little bit of singing from me too to fill in some of the dramatic beats that were needed. And then during filming for the performances, I would just sing along with Whitney.

But even that, you know, having to lip sync with Whitney, she has such a... Powerful. Distinct, I mean, the ultimate voice. I mean, it's the best voice in the world. The world. It's still to this day, I like, but yeah, it was about singing as loud as I could,

really engaging with when she took her breaths in the live performances too. And just making sure that at least it looked like her voice was coming out of my mouth. It looked like it. You were absolutely amazing, amazing performance. Did you enjoy performing? I absolutely loved it.

It was my favourite thing to do. And I think you're right, it is two different worlds that she was living in and sometimes they overlapped. This is a global icon. The pressure that must give you, you know, it's something really hard to negotiate even if you are super grounded and have all the best people around you. And she had some great people around her amazing people around her um one of them being the relationship with her producer Clive Davis who's played by the amazing oh my god he's incredible can we just have

a moment to talk about Stanley Tucci yes we yes we can can we just anything just tell us all we all want to know he's charming he's He's clever. He's very funny. And, you know, I actually wrote him a letter. I wonder whether he remembers this, but I wrote him a letter to be like, can you please play Mr. Clive Davis? Oh, did you? I did. Did you want...

So you'd already got the part and... I had already got the part and we were trying to find Clive. And when I heard that Stanley Tucci was in a conversation, I was like, is there anything I can do? So I wrote him a letter being like I think you're incredible and this is the dynamic that I see and why it's special and like I would love for us to try that out together I don't think it was just that but

like you know I hoped it helped I'm sure it did a very beautiful thing to do to write someone personally yeah I think it's nice you see this very um tender and nurturing relationship she has with him in fact Clive Davis the actual producer was produced the film yeah yeah he was involved so it was quite lovely because when I you know when I got the part and then finally went out to the US I met up with Clive and you know he he took me to his theatre room he has a cinema room and we watched Whitney's live performances and I got to sit with him and it was like, it was really lovely to kind of get a feeling of what Whitney must have felt like being around him,

which is research in itself really is like figuring out that dynamic because what I realised during the making of the film is that even though we're from extremely different places, we have similarities too. And that was also just a beautiful thing to know. Like what? I have some things in common. What did he say?

You know, I think the conversation was that, like, our vibe was the same. Our essence is the same in some contexts. We're both Leos. And that says it all. I mean, you totally inhabit her. It's such a brilliant performance. And also just inhabit her throughout her years as well from when she's a teenager pre getting her

record deal yeah right through to her untimely death in 2012 she was only 48 now the film also portrays um whitney's romantic relationship with another woman yeah robin who's her best friend best friend who's played by nefessa williams um and then robin later then actually worked with whitney maintained a lifelong um relationship um how important was it to for you to get the that portrayal of that friendship and that relationship right extremely important you know i think we know so much about other areas of whitney's life but to me this is one of her first most significant relationships is in her formative years in her young adulthood and sharing that part of her I

think adds to the dimensions of Whitney that we haven't seen before and for me knowing her journey knowing the things that she went through to know that for a big part of her life she had someone that she was so close to and had such a deep connection with that was with her you know helps because I think as much you know such a balance between all the successes that she had but also the the difficulties that she had in her life too and and such an interesting life to investigate and look at exactly and such a difficulty having to, you know, portray a certain type of perfect pop princess. The first black woman to be a pop princess.

I mean, the pressure on her. The pressure. And how much do you have to change, especially back then? Like, how much do you have to change to become somebody who belongs to the nation as a black woman, as a woman of colour? You know, and what do you have to change to become somebody who belongs to the nation as a black woman as a woman of color you know and and what do you have to sacrifice and so looking at Whitney I

see all the sacrifices that she made and actually even when I think about myself and my career I wouldn't be here without the sacrifices that she and so many other women of color have made in the entertainment industry and so it's very like meaningful yeah the layers that you must have gone through preparing for that thinking about that just being like oh my goodness like yeah how difficult was it portraying her slide into drug use yeah it was really hard because it was about creating a balance you know I think that what I really love about the film is that it doesn't show too much of it. We don't need to see it all. But I think the kind of implying of drugs in her life was important. So finding that balance performance-wise was challenging.

And then just going there. I mean, you know, when I finished, I had to take six months off to get back to a feeling of, oh, it's just me and A, you know, and having a routine again because so much of my life for so long was Whitney and a lot of that is if not all at all not all painful but complicated and high intensity it's what it seems like her life was. The brilliant Naomi Aki there I highly recommend it as a Christmas watch you'll be in floods. Now, protests have been taking place across Iran since mid-September after the death in custody of a 22-year-old woman, Masa Amini, who'd been

detained by Iranian morality police for not wearing her headscarf correctly. Women living in Iran have been sending their thoughts and diaries in secret to the BBC's Sabah Zaveri. They come in the form of voice notes, writings, videos and drawings, which the women then destroy on their phones in case they're searched. These diaries show the everyday risks and dangers that women face as they continue to protest in Iran. And we've got some excerpts for you to listen to. The journalist's voice you will hear is Saba Zaveri's

and the names of the women have been changed for their safety. Their comments are voiced by BBC producers. Every time I go out, I have my back searched. Any evidence of protest could give the security forces another excuse to arrest me. Some of my friends who have been arrested have disappeared. I have to go, but please, keep all my messages and videos for me, will you? When freedom comes, I want to remember what hell we had to go through. Protests in Iran have raged for months, since 22-year-old Mahsa Amini was killed after she

was detained by morality police. I have been in secret contact with female protesters since the start. They create their diaries, send them to me, then they destroy them as they can't keep them. We identify each other discreetly by asking a simple question like, what's the weather like today? It's 9th of October, more than three weeks since the start of the protests. A photograph of a rubber bullet wound. It's 5am in Iran, She must have been up all night.

They shot me. I was just walking past a line of riot police. Some of them stared at me. I asked if there was anything wrong. Then suddenly, one of them pointed the gun at me and fired. Can you actually believe it? There is no logic. You feel like they're zombies. pointed the gun at me and fired. Can you actually believe it? There is no logic. You feel like they're zombies.

They grabbed my hair and pushed me to the ground. Every time I turned my head, I saw many guns pointing at me. Over days, her mom nursed her bruised body. More messages came in. What did you have for dinner? I had soup. We know it's safe to speak now. Tonight, for the first time ever,

I saw my mum confronting the authorities. She used to tell me to observe the hijab rules to protect me from the morality police. But now, she's actually gone to challenge them. It's mid-October. Now 11 women across Iran are sending me their diaries, including Neda, who is texting me from Mahshad, a very religious city in northeast of Iran.

Hello, what's the weather like? There is so much happening, Sabah. I'm drawing and writing what is happening, but you know it's not safe for me to keep a diary. Even my very conservative mother is changing because of these protests. Her and her friends study Quran in a religious group. They are horrified by seeing videos of police killing young people on social media. It's the first time she has ever openly criticised the

regime. But still, I have to keep my protest a secret. It's the 27th of October. The crackdown on the school protests continues. Children are outraged at the killing of a 16-year-old school girl. My niece is protesting in her high school and she told me how the militia and headmistress have searched them and threatened them. Less than a month later, eyewitnesses in the Kurdish regions of Iran describe an ongoing massacre against protesters.

I get a message from Rojine in Salandaj. I've seen such horrendous scenes. They shot a protester right in front of my eyes. I've been filming what I can. I want to make a documentary, but I have to delete all my videos for now in case my phone is searched. Please keep the videos for me. Today I smuggled medical supplies into a safe house where they are treating wounded protesters.

They can't go to hospital. The police tried to search my bag. I screamed, get out! I have my underwear here. It was night, so by torchlight I managed to show them my clothes and not the bandages and saline underneath. I got away, but it was so scary. The Iranian government claims that the protests are being organized by terrorists rather than citizens. They have intensified the crackdown

across the country. Things are getting even worse where Rojin lives. In Kurdish cities of Iran, nothing is normal. In a taxi today, we drove past the body lying on the street. But at least I feel like I'm actually doing something, and I feel alive. Across Iran, more and more women refuse to observe the Islamic dress code, risking imprisonment, even death. After being shot, Par had told me, I can see the dawn of freedom, so I will keep fighting in one way or another. I try to contact her. Hi, what did you have for dinner?

Hello? Hello? My messages are not delivered. I have heard nothing from her since. And you can see a video of those diary excerpts with illustrations on the BBC 100 Women website alongside articles and videos of other noteworthy women. And if there's anything you want to get in touch with us about, you can email us via the BBC Women's Hour website or contact us on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. We welcome your input into the programme. And remember, you can enjoy Women welcome your inputs into the program and remember you can

enjoy woman's hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m during the week just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the woman's hour website you can also listen back to any of our content on bbc sounds such as my interview with sarah de la guard who was run over by two trains losing her right leg and arm as a result. An astonishing story of survival. It really is an amazing interview to listen to, so do head to BBC Sounds. Now to the actor Kate Winslet, who was on the programme last week, talking about social media and young people.

So many of you responded to her views that children should not be given smartphones. It's clear that keeping children safe online is a huge concern for many of you responded to her views that children should not be given smartphones. It's clear that keeping children safe online is a huge concern for many of you. Baroness Beeban Kidron hopes to help. She directed the film Bridget Jones The Edge of Reason, but it was her documentary In Real Life that encouraged her to change career and dedicate her life to protecting the rights of children online. Beeban spent hours with young people to gain insight into how the internet influences their lives. A member of the House of Lords since 2012, she pushed through the world's first age-appropriate design code into UK law. She's also the founder of Five Rights Foundation, a charity that works to create policy and practical

solutions to build the digital world children and young people deserve. The interview with Kate struck a chord with lots of you because people are unsure about what to do. So what does Beban say to parents grappling with the issue? I think it's really hard to have responsibility for something you don't really have power over. I think what I would say to parents is don't think about individual companies or apps. Think about features. Think about whether it live streams. Think about whether you can direct message by an adult. Think about how your child is. Think about the notifications. Does it go on through the night? Think about those things and make rules around

those things rather than actually around a specific app. Yes. I also think, and I really do want to say this at the outset, you can't parent blame. This is something that we have a technology that is front and center of young people's lives, that is inadequately regulated, is unsafe for use. And it's a bit like saying to a parent, OK, put your car at the wheel, the driving wheel. Yeah. No brakes. It's on a hill. No airbag. And off they go. Good luck. Good luck. Good luck, yeah. So I think that when it comes to parents, there are things you can do.

You absolutely shouldn't try and take the phone away. You should absolutely try and stick to the age limits and observe them. Absolutely try and be prepared to be unpopular with your children and say, no, there are certain things you can't do. Absolutely go and play some of those games and do some of those things and understand what is happening to them. Right. But ultimately,

what I'd say to parents is, please write to your MP right now and tell them that you care about the online safety bill and you care about the provisions for children in that bill, because we want something to happen at a systemic level. We actually want it to have safety rules embedded by default so that we are not left with a responsibility for these huge companies that are taking over our children's lives. I mean, it's just returned that bill, much beleaguered in some ways to Parliament last Monday. You're rolling your eyes after the delay. You've said what you want part of that. It's obviously quite complicated. But why is it being stymied?

What's the difficulty? I think there's two reasons. One is actually just the endless change of government. I mean, I have been working on this bill since the get-go. I can't remember whether I'm on my fifth or sixth secretary of state. But every time there's someone new, yeah, and every time the minister, they have another look at it, they hear all the lobbying all over again, and they make some changes. Yeah. So some

of it is just sort of, you know, a victim of what's happened in politics over the last few years. I think the other thing is that there is a sort of, you know, a body of people who constantly have said, you know, this is an affront to freedom of speech. Now, actually, they have won the day and recently the government have taken out whole swathes of the bill. And I think that there is perhaps for another day, an argument to be had about that. But I think that the point of the bill and why I think those people were largely wrong, not entirely wrong, largely wrong, is that it's supposed to be looking at the systems and processes. It's supposed to be looking at the way that it pushes you, pushes your behavior, pushes these loops of disordered material, recommends things to you that really you shouldn't be recommending. It's supposed to be looking at that. And somehow a lot of the debate seems to be about the content itself rather than about the power of the machine.

And I think that that's been actually, to be honest, a bit of a failure of media. To communicate that difference. To communicate that difference. And a little bit of laziness in politics, because it's much more easy to cry for freedom of speech than it is to say, actually, do we want Elon Musk or Meta or so on determining what we see and determining what we feel? And actually, I would like the freedom from that.

What would you say to those who, you know, because you have changed career, you have made this your focus, who perhaps don't quite understand how serious this is as a problem? I think that the evidence is piling up. So at one level, no one who is in the courtroom at the inquest of Molly Russell can think it is non-trivial yeah 1400 pieces of material not one of which you would want to see and not many of which she actually searched for they were recommended they were offered if you like this you can have that and I've seen it all and it is literally you know gaping wrists and things too ugly to say on the radio. I also did an interview on this programme, people couldn't look it back up, the solicitor looking after the family, and she was extremely affected by what she saw as an adult.

As an adult, and indeed, everybody around that court case. But I think what's important about that, and in fact, I have an amendment on the bill in relation to that. But what's important is that we got transparency, a radical transparency where we first saw in court, in public, what was going on for one child. Now, that is what's going on at varying degrees for all children. And if you look today in the papers, there is a whole thing about, you know, it takes three seconds for TikTok to give you self-harm material. You know, we at Five Rights have done absolutely groundbreaking research, which shows, you know, the sort of extreme diets that children are offered, 400 calories a day in a minute. These sorts of things are not about what the children are doing. This is actually about what the company is promoting.

And it's that kind of ranking and promoting and recommending that my mission is against. But you sound like you believe you can do it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, listen. It's taking, I mean, you know, but things like the bill and obviously what you've talked about, Molly Russell and what the coroner had said about the schoolgirl and her family, what they've presented. It's of now, isn't it? The speed is of essence.

Oh, it absolutely is. And you mentioned in your introduction the age appropriate design code. That's that's the first standalone sort of safety by design regime for kids. It's around data. I won't explain it here. But what I will say is that after we passed it here, they passed it in Ireland, they passed it in California, we expect it to pass all around the world over the next couple of years. And that begins to say, okay, the flaw has been risen that that made significant changes. If we can do it again, in the online safety bill, if they can do it in Europe, in the Digital Services Act, if they can do it, you know, in Australia and Canada, and so on, which they are

doing, then we actually start to say, do you know what, these robber barons, which is what they are, you know, we've seen it before in industrialization, in the trains coming, and, you know what? These robber barons, which is what they are, you know, we've seen it before in industrialization, in the trains coming and, you know, and the coming of technologies. Yeah, it will change. It will be a regulated area. And like everything else, it will be imperfect. And like everything else, it won't be 100 percent safe. But right now it is a travesty. And so I do want to say it's important this bill passes. It will not do everything. And I am, myself and my colleagues in the House of Lords, are putting the government under a great deal of pressure on four or five issues that are absolutely essential in order to make it fit for purpose. Baroness Kidron talking to Emma. Now, archaeologists have discovered an ancient burial ground in Harpole in Northamptonshire,

which they claim is the most important female burial site ever discovered in Britain. Dating from around 650 AD, the site contained the teeth of a woman who was buried upon a bed with a 30-piece necklace of intricately wrought gold and garnets and semi-precious stones. This woman is thought to be a Christian leader of significant wealth. Well, Emma spoke to Lynn Blackmore, Senior Fine Specialist at the Museum of London Archaeology, and Irina Dmitrescu, Professor of Medieval English Literature at the University of Bonn and host of the podcast miniseries Close Readings, Encounters with Medieval Women. So why was Irina so excited about the discovery? I'm excited because it reminds me of a lot of 7th century writing about noble women and their

jewellery. So there's this really long standing prejudice in the church against ornamentation, women doing their hair, putting on makeup, wearing silks or linens or bright colors. And yet it's clear that Anglo-Saxon abbesses were often royal or had royal connections, and they had the taste to go with it. So, you know, we see in Bede, for example, he tells this great story about Saint Ethelthrith or Audrey. She dies of the plague, but before she example, he tells this great story about St. Ethelthrith or Audrey. She dies of the plague, but before she dies, she has this tumor underneath her jaw. And she tells people that the tumor is because she used to wear fine necklaces when she was a young woman.

So even as a very holy woman who's managed to stay a virgin in two royal marriages or noble marriages, she still has the sense that this was a vain and sinful thing to do for which she has to make up. So the jewellery becomes quite a key part of this, a way of understanding and also placing people. Yes, I mean, it's a sign of nobility. It's a little bit, depends what kind of woman this was, right? If it was a royal woman, then I think it just wouldn't be surprising. But some people have suggested that it might be an abbess, in which case we would get a glimpse into the way a powerful Christian woman would maintain

these signs of rank and power and authority. Lynn, hello Lynn. Hello. You were saying why this find is so significant. Coming back to the necklace, it is something that would have defined a woman, a woman, a member of the aristocracy and also a member of the church, because there is quite a lot of documentary evidence in Bede and other sources who refer to these wealthy women who were at the forefront of Christianisation wearing their necklaces. And as we've just been told about the sometimes the problems they have in correlating,

yes, I want to wear this necklace, and oh, it's actually not the right thing to do. In this case, it is possible that she wasn't actually wearing the necklace that she was buried with, that it was hidden under another garment on the burial. But these women seem to be carrying on doing, you know, being quite ostentatious with their jewellery until about 680 or so. And then the church bead and other members of the church were, male members, were sort of coming down on it not being appropriate anymore.

I understand there were a number of elite male burial sites in the 7th century, but they declined after that and women's burial sites increased. What do we know about that? That's right. There was a big study published in 2013 which has sample finds from about 600 burials and from that with radiocarbon dating and from that we've been able to build a fairly good solid chronology for burials of both men and women from the late 6th from the 6th into 7th century that shows that the number of objects buried with people generally was declining from

the mid 6th century but around the end of that century you get a sort of wave of very wealthy men buried with very lavishly in chambers with loads of artefacts. And that continues, there's not many of them, but it continues to about 6.30. The first one that we've dated is at Prittlewell, which Moeller excavated. And the last one, the latest one we know of, is at Sutton Hoo. And then after that, women seem to become more prominent.

Again, the normal person is having less artefacts, but women seem to be becoming more obvious with the objects that are being buried with them. That doesn't mean that men are becoming less powerful. They're just not buried in the same way. And maybe swords are seen to be not culturally appropriate to be putting in your barrel anymore. But women are becoming more obvious

with the more sort of luxurious grave goods they have with them, which were whatever was put in the grave was to symbolise the wealth and status and other roles of the deceased in their community. And this is sort of demonstrating that women were becoming more important in various ways. Irina, you think we're having a bit of a medieval moment, especially for women. Why? Well, I see a lot of writers turning to medieval figures, either real ones or imagined ones,

and trying to tell stories about women's voices, about women's empowerment, sometimes about women's marginalisation. So, you know, just in the past few years, we've had Lauren Groff. Her novel Matrix is nominally about Marie de France, but is actually about an abbess sort of modern, slightly hip-hoppy translation, and another one sets Beowulf in a Stepford Wife utopia, or dystopia, I should say, and explores the female characters and their desires and their fears through that. Yeah, well, it does seem to be the interest. I know you're also talking about this in a podcast,

and some of the lists of the subjects for your podcast, nuns letters, women's laments caught my eye. Tell us a bit more about that. Yes. You know, one of the stories that's told about Anglo-Saxon England especially is that there's no women's writing. And scholars have changed that in the past few decades. And part of the problem is women who are writing in early medieval England were writing in Latin, not in English. So they tend not to be in the story of English literature. But we have these fantastic letters in Latin from English nuns in the eighth century who were active in Germany. They were out there to do missionary work, I should say here because I am in Germany. And they write about very practical things, you know, letters of reference, asking for gifts, making all kinds of arrangements, you know, they're copying books and that sort of thing. But they also have this very emotional, passionate language describing their sense of exile, their loneliness, how they miss their

siblings, or, you know, these letters are to Boniface, the Archbishop Boniface, or how they miss their siblings or, you know, these letters are to Boniface, the Archbishop Boniface, or how they miss him as well. So, you know, it's an attempt to kind of touch a woman's voice from 1300 years later. From a long time ago. From a long time ago. Irina Dimitrescu and Lynn Blackmore speaking to Emma there. Now, as Emma goes off on maternity leave and prepares to re-enter the domestic sphere, what are the tasks that need to be done in a certain way in the home? The small things you can't bear to be wrong. Well,

Strictly Come Dancing's Claudia Winkleman has a thing about loo rolls, in particular, the way you put the loo roll on the holder, which was news to Emma, who in her words, just bungs the loo roll on. So the toilet roll, this is not casual. I love the fact that you think, I don't know, it just goes on. No, it does. You're in a rush. Get it on. No. Well, you're in a rush, but like define rush. There is always time to make sure that it goes over. It doesn't go under. But why? I mean, and this is the thing. I actually know I'm wrong now, which is a good place to start this conversation. I'm happy to admit. Apparently, some people call it the beard versus the mullet. There's different ways of describing this.

I was not aware of this. Can we start a WhatsApp chat with those people? Yeah, I know. And even the person behind the patent for the original loo roll and how it was meant to be hung, the diagrams show you're right. But what's the harm having it the other way? Because I have had it like that for years, I think. The idea that you even say, I think Emma makes me petrified. Well, it's not that it's wrong the other way. It's just so right the other way because it's hanging. It's welcoming. What it's saying is good morning or good afternoon here I am and I can be incredibly useful under is a little bit scratchy

you just pull it out by the way do you know what I could argue with the same vehemence either way oh is that well no because of impartiality rules at the BBC there you go you want you know how it is. No, but like, as I said it, I suddenly went, do you know what? Under might be quite cosy. I might try that. It might stroke the wall as it comes out.

It's all snuggled in. It's all snuggled in. It's more hide and seek rather than da-da. Yes, but what's also a thing about this is when I briefly spoke to you about coming on to talk about this and you've been very game and here you are, is that you did mention you couldn't be in a relationship with someone or live with people who didn't understand this. And I've obviously survived so far in my relationship, but this is a big bugbear. They've got studies about it, that it's on lists of therapists, relationship therapists, that you have to be on the same page about this. You know what? If he suddenly went under, as it were, I can stick with him. It's been 24 years. You know, I just sort of feel like, but there are other things.

There are sort of alarm bells. I don't think I could sleep with somebody who had a system for loading the dishwasher. Oh, that's a whole other area. If we're going broader now on the domestic, go on. I don't know if I could be with somebody who said quite seriously, you know that's not where the colander goes, love. But that is a thing. People have to have to have battles quite regularly on this. By the way, lots of my friends love the fact that their partners do have a system. Forks, that way. I'm like, chuck it all in, hope for the best. So yes, domestic world, people do feel very strongly about some things. They do. Mustard in the fridge. Do you keep your mustard in the fridge?

Yes, of course, once it's over. Okay, well, then you and I could live together. That's fine. Well, good. I'm happy. I'm looking forward to that commune when we're older. We just won't have loo roll holders. They'll be on the side. But my best friend, and I'm going to out her on this, has now admitted, and we did used to live together, that every time she comes to my house, if I have put the loo roll on the wrong way,

she changes it in the loo that she goes to surreptitiously. And apparently that's a thing. People just correcting stuff in your house. And also, she might not even need to use the bathroom. She'll be like, I'm just going to pop in here and I'm just leave it with me. I'll do an edit. By the way, she's your best friend and we love her, so we can't say anything. But what?

I know, because I then asked a few other people, not least some of the fine women I work with, what else they correct in people's homes. I don't know if you correct anything. Wonky pictures. Just moving a frame. With this fringe in my eyesight, I wouldn't even know if something was wonky. I'm being honest. Would you go near the sink area if you didn't like what was going on there, the way things were arranged?

The sink, around the sink. Yeah. It would wash up. Right. Around the sink. No, It would wash up. Right. Around the sink. No, I'm not a rearranger. I think what I love about me discovering that there is this protocol that I did not know about loo roll is that I'm 37 and I thought I was quite well read and I thought I knew a few things. And I am still learning how wrong I can be quite regularly or out of step with the majority.

I'm 50 and I step with the majority. I'm 50 and I learn all the time. That's the best thing, right? Just going, oh, I had no idea. By the way, another thing, I'm just flagging this up while we're here, milk in your cup or hot water. Where we go first with tea? Yeah. Obviously it's milk at the end. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. with tea yeah so it's milk at the end yeah thank you thank you thank you I have a tea timer on my oven I brew for four minutes take out the tea bag I go for now because I don't drink coffee I need it strong then add the milk but then where do you put the tea back because that's a whole other

thing do you go in a caddy do you go straight in the bin do you put it I mean some friends put it on the side next to them just just make it one mean, some friends put it on the side next to them, just naked. One of my best friends puts it on the side, but in a ramekin, which I respect. Yeah, I love a bit of a ramekin. Sometimes a little reuse. Oh, you don't reuse, do you? No, I don't.

I put it in, but remember, I'm going back to university here where everything was reused. I mean, I didn't mean everything. You can reuse if you're not a strong brewer or if you're using it to make old maps you know you're gonna use the tea bag or fake tan because I've done that Claudia Winkleman of course I had to come back to no you've not you've used a tea bag on your face of course I have and Bisto listen needs must needs must you know this. So all I was going to say is, yeah, I put a teabag in the sink and that drives my husband mad.

Oh, not in the sink. That's horrific. Well, he says that I'm... I agree with him. I agree with him. I love the fact that we've got to teabagging. So the final sort of thought around this is the domestic... Oh, fuck. We've gone back. The domestic, people editing, we don't seem to be doing that, either of us,

but people coming around to your house and doing things. I know on your lovely and wonderful Radio 2 programme that you do at the weekends, that this is the stuff of life for you, isn't it? Oh, my goodness. It's my favourite thing. I mean, there'll be people listening to this thinking, could it be any more trivial? And yet they will have a view on each bit of it.

Yeah. And also the extra trivial is perfect. We have a thing on the show, it's called News at 10, where people phone up and it's really lovely. And it could be, oh, I've just got engaged and that's divine. And I love all that. And I love new babies. And I love people going to pick up puppies and everything else. But my other favourite is a woman who had changed her marmalade from a fine cut to a coarse cut. We got 7,000 messages. Because I was like, because coarse cut, I find, could just be a bit of a shock.

It's sort of chaotic, isn't it? I don't eat marmalade, so this is lost on me. But I'm going with you. Go on. Coarse cut's a shock. I don't have a loss of marmalade, but it's that kind of thing. Do you know what? I've always, always had X on my toast, let's say jam,

or I always have marmalade. And they suddenly go, but I've tried lemon curd. And I hold on just a minute, and we all go, buckle up, continue. Is it too sweet? Anyway, she ended up making her own lemon curd and is now selling this delicious lemon so it's always the small it's go small um the same best friend i mentioned who corrects and edits my loo rolls uh also loves lemon curd in the morning on her toast and when we lived together i used to do it for her because she wouldn't make any breakfast otherwise and i

found it absolutely hideous i'm also a marmite, not a fan of the squeezy like the original jar. Of course not squeezy, that's not even a conversation. Oh by the way, there's subsections, extra hot. Guys, you've got the magic. Oh yes, they've done chilly ones or they've done all of these things. Stick in your lane because it's the most beautiful lane. You're the Champs-Élysées, you don't need to do anything else. I've said it before and I'll say it again. She's a wise woman, that Claudia Winkleman. Talking to Emma there. Well, Jackie wrote in to say, so agree that loo roll has to go over.

I regularly change loo rolls to over at friends' houses, in cafes, restaurants and at work. Hilary wrote in to say, but of course you must have the paper coming over the top. It is much easier to pull it and there is less danger of touching the next person's paper. I often turn it around in other people's houses. And Emma got in touch to say, I thought I could live with Claudia Winkleman in the commune until she said, tea bags go in the sink. No, no, no. That's it from me. Go and change your loo rolls. Have a

lovely weekend. I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.