Woman's Hour - Claudia Winkleman, Yvette Cooper, Heidi Carter, Lillie Harris

Episode Date: July 5, 2021

Studies have found that men are more reluctant than women to wear face covers. So, in a couple of weeks when restrictions are likely to be lifted, making it a personal choice, what are we likely to see happen. Emma talks to Christina Gravert, behavioural economist from the University of Copenhagen.Labour’s Yvette Cooper tells Emma about an amendment she's tabling today to the Police Courts Crime and Sentencing Bill to try to change the law on common assault. Critics of the law are concerned that cases need to be filed within six months otherwise they’re “timed out” meaning vulnerable women can fail to get justice.Strictly Come Dancing co-host and BBC presenter Claudia Winkleman has released her first book, Quite. She joins Emma to talk about Strictly, parenthood and how being perfect is boring.A woman who has Down's Syndrome is taking the government to Court this week. Heidi Carter is fighting for a change in the law around termination and Down's Syndrome. Currently, the time limit to terminate a pregnancy is 24 weeks. But if the foetus has Down Syndrome, then that shifts right up to birth. Heidi wants the time limit to be set at 24 weeks for all pregnancies. She's supported by Maire Lea Wilson whose son, Aidan, has Down's Syndrome.Lillie Harris is a successful young composer who graduated with a First Class degree from the Royal College of Music in 2016, after winning the Elgar Memorial Prize for her final portfolio. Tonight two of her works will be premiered at this year’s Cheltenham Music Festival. She joins Emma to explain the inspirations behind her choral piece and her trumpet fanfare.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme and it's good to be back from my holidays, a damp and rather cold week in beautiful Norfolk, of which our three-year-old son wisely said, I think the sunshine went on another holiday. Quite. And quite is one of those brilliant words that does a lot of heavy lifting. Incidentally, the name of Claudia Winkleman's

first book, who's on the programme today. I shall also be talking to the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee, Labour MP Yvette Cooper, about changes she seeks to make to the controversial police courts crime and sentencing Bill that would disproportionately help women. And we'll have some music from the highly successful composer, 27-year-old Lily Harris, ahead of two of her works premiering this evening at the Cheltenham Music Festival. But my question for you today, what we want to discuss is this. Whether you think mask wearing is a gender issue.

As we expect the Prime Minister to announce later today that more Covid restrictions are to be lifted on July 19th, the laws surrounding face masks are expected to go. The public, we, are going to be told to exercise our own judgment instead about when or if to wear these face coverings at all. Already people have taken to social media to declare which side they're on, with some commentators comparing it to the new Brexit in our society. For instance, I don't know if you saw this,

Matthew Lynn has written in The Telegraph today, he's declared pro and anti-maskers are the new remainers and leavers with the same tribes. But does it split along gender lines? Studies have shown that women have tended to wear face masks more than men during the pandemic. And I want to know if that's been true in your life.

Have you perhaps had to remind more men in your life or women, tell us how it's been, to put them on or put them on properly? Or has it split out evenly? As we head into a world using our discretion again about masks, what do you expect to happen? You can text Women's Hour on 84844 or you can get in touch with me on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. We've already had some messages on this. One from Chloe who says,

I had four estate agents come to my house recently, three men, one woman. The only one wearing a mask was, you guessed it, the woman. The chaps didn't even offer to put one on. Usher says, I think I would prefer to wear masks to work, mainly to avoid eye contact and the need to make small talk with people I don't know and don't particularly like. Being anonymous can be quite liberating sometimes. That is a bit of a theme. Another one here from Alice, who says, late train back from Manchester on Friday night, at least three visibly drunk men in my carriage with no masks.

All women present had them on. This isn't surprising behaviour. We'll get into the psychology of that in just a moment. But do tell us your experiences and whether you think there is something in this, there being a gender split and why. Of course, we have many male listeners. If you want to get in touch, please do so.

And let us know why you think either you or others around you and some of your male friends have not been wearing them. I was thinking anecdotally over the last 15 months or so, the only times I've been told off in shops, if I've accidentally stood too close to someone or not quite got my mask on. I remember one, I was heading into a very small coffee shop. I was trying to sanitise my hands, hadn't got my mask on quite quick enough. The only times I've been told off has been by, you know, fellow women. So are we also the enforcers? Let me know your views on this. I'm joined now by Christina Gravett, a behavioural economist from the University of Copenhagen. And as I mentioned, Christina, studies have found that men are more

reluctant than women to wear personal protective equipment and face masks, a trend seen in previous epidemics. In fact, one survey done last year shows women were almost twice as likely as men to say they intended to wear a mask outside of the home. That was when the rules, I should say, hadn't yet been made mandatory. So, Christina, how do you think this is going to play out when it's not as we expect to be the law anymore in a couple of weeks in this country? Well, maybe we can glimpse a little bit into the future since I'm calling in from Denmark,

as you said. And here we have just had the restrictions taken away. So they're still there in public transport and some situations, but they're less than they were before. And we already see that people are using them less and less everywhere around us. And we also see there's been a nice study that has been done for every single week through the last year, asking people about their behavior. And there we see really a strong drop from about 70% of people who said still last week that they used the mask at least seven times per week, while now only to around 20% of people who say that now that the restrictions have

been lifted. So we still see that there's still about 20% of people who do still wear them at most occasions. But we also see that there was a huge drop after the restrictions were lifted. And speaking to us from the future, then how do we know how this changes between men and women? So I think first of all, we should consider that even though there are gender effects, the main effects of this big 50% edge point drop probably does not come from gender effects. So I don't have the data for men and women split up, but I'm pretty sure, and also from just personal observation here, it is that most people are stopping to use masks, but there might of course be some gender differences as we've also seen prior during the pandemic and also when it was allowed to wear the mask, that there might be some people who are less likely to wear them than others.

And the psychology of that, for instance, we already got straight away. One of the messages in was women being more risk averse. Is that potentially why the studies that have been done for those who are familiar with the data that show women tend to wear them more than men? Is that your reading of that? Or what can you tell us about our psychology? So we've seen quite a lot of different studies that women tend to be slightly more risk averse than men when it comes to investment decisions, when it comes to other health decisions, when it comes to driving. So all these situations that put our risk or the risk of others, our lives at risk. But so this is also something that could happen in a situation. I think what's a little bit different now that more and more people are vaccinated is that it's not so much

more about protecting ourselves necessarily with a mask, but it's actually more about protecting others in case we do show some asymptotic symptoms that we might not be aware of, especially because we ourselves think we are vaccinated and don't so much think the risk. So I think maybe now in this after phase, it's actually a bit more about being altruistic and caring about the public good and maybe also caring about the opinion of others and how we interact with them rather than actually their own personal risk preferences. So that's interesting, the idea that potentially women care more about what others think of what they're doing and how they might be judged. I think the altruism point is also very important,

but that's an interesting one to ponder for a moment. So we see in a few studies, for example, when it comes to donation decisions, right, when people are asked to donate to a charity, we see that women are slightly more affected by these direct asks and are more willing to even just give a small amount and men are more likely to say, no, I don't want to give anything. When it comes to giving large amounts, they kind of give the same. So there we don't see the differences. But the interesting difference is that somebody asks you, then women are a bit more likely to actually then give to charity. So that could be an indication that we're a bit more influenced about people around us and these

requests that we have or feel a bit less comfortable defying the norm in that situation. We know women aren't nicer than men. I'm just going to put it out there. And the idea of that being the case has been roundly discussed and dismissed in many different ways over the generations. But the idea of altruism being a part here, to flip it on its head, of how to get men to wear masks and to think about their own health, there has been discussion about that. That's true. And I do think, I mean, again, in most studies, we see that there's more variation within the gender. So there's more men who are not altruistic at all and very strong men who are strongly altruistic and then within the women. So if we talk about these gender differences, we really have to think about it's just a small shift in the average. And it's not that men in general or women in general are different to each other.

It's more that within that group, we might see some people who are more at the top and more at the bottom, and that shifts our averages. So I think in general, we want to be careful about not saying that it's men or women who behave differently, but maybe within that gender group, we might sometimes find some women who are more affected by what other people think of them in that content. But it can also be the same for men. And if we look at different age groups, we might see that younger men care quite a lot about how they're seen by their peers. And we see that there's quite strong peer effects. So that could then also decrease mask wearing. But with health campaigns and awareness drives, it has been said also, and I wonder your take on this, to get men to wear them. And we're also getting some messages saying men need to up their game in terms of wearing them properly, not just having them hang out below their nose and lots of ruder

connotations that have also come out of that. But in order to get men to do it properly, you need to tell men it's about protecting themselves, not necessarily others. What do you make of that? There are some studies that suggest that men might be more selfish in some situations. So that would then help with these types of health campaigns and remind them more that they are actually at a higher risk of contracting COVID and then also having worse health outcomes. So that could be a benefit for them to wear it themselves. But again, I think it has been shifting a bit with the higher vaccination rates now that maybe this risk for yourself just isn't the main driver anymore. And it is more about protecting the other. So maybe using that now, this kind of selfish component in a health campaign isn't going to have such a strong effect. Because once you're vaccinated twice, I think most people will feel quite confident that they will not get Corona.

So this is more something that they do for others rather than for themselves. Are you going to ditch the mask? Have you ditched the mask? So I'm still wearing it. My vaccination appointment is on Wednesday, the first one. So I'm still very careful. And also this idea that I don't want to get it now two days before I'm getting my vaccination. So I'm still quite strict on that, but I see other people around it. But then I should also say in my personal situation, so my partner, he's much better at wearing the mask all the time, even though he's already been vaccinated several weeks ago. So I think from a personal perspective, it's more the other way around.

I like the fact you've done a bit of personal assurance at the end of this interview where you've been sat in your room in the house saying, yeah, I think that we tend to see that women are a bit better at this, but in my own life, that is not the case. Christina Graffert, thank you very much for talking to us. Building on one of your last points there around the risks, a message here from someone who calls himself the mask crone. I've noticed in supermarkets, it's middle-aged men who either don't wear the masks or wear them below their nose, but most women do, but not all. But also the message is not the vaccination doesn't stop you getting COVID. That message isn't getting out to people.

People assume that they are safe. Another message here. Women are more compliant. This is from Jackie. We're brought up in a patriarchal society where men tell us what to do. Although we heard from two members of the cabinet in the last few days, Robert Jenrick, the community secretary, and the Chancellor, Rishi Sunak, both have suggested certainly that they will not be continuing to wear their masks,

whereas Priti Patel, the Home Secretary, will make of that what you will. We'll be speaking to the Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee shortly. Yvette Cooper will see what she's planning on doing. But keep your messages coming in. Do you think it's going to become a gender issue when masks go back to being more about our personal discretion? That's what some of the studies certainly seem to say. What's it like in your life? 84844. Get in touch with us or on social media at BBC Women's Hour. Now, many of you will know our next guest, a fixture on our screens on Saturday nights. She guides us through the highs and lows of Strictly Come Dancing when it's on, along with fellow host Tess Daly.

You can also now hear her on Saturday mornings on Radio 2. It is, of course, Claudia Winkleman, who's also found time to pen her first book as she calls it a love letter to life. It's called Quite. In it, she gives her thoughts on all sorts of things from card games like bridge being the sexiest thing she says you can do on a night out to going on the underground in London being like a spa break. She even includes a section on squirrel etiquette on the request of her son Claudia Winkleman. Good morning. Good morning thank you so much for having me on. I'm just going to flag this up now I don't know how long you've allocated for this chat. I can't remember anything about the book. So it might just be much, it might just be lovely to see you, Emma. Night, night.

I don't think it will be, Claudia, because as ever, I've prepared. So it's going to be okay. I shall remind you what's in your own book. But I think we need to start with the most important thing of all, which is you don't like water. Well, I've never had it. In fact, I did have a sip once and it was a shock. I don't believe in it. By the way, I'd always thought that there were loads of us, that there was a whole army of people who like water. Disgusting. I mean, fine for a brief shower. If you go to a restaurant, not even fancy, somebody lovely will say, would you like water for the table? I mean, take that jug away.

Don't even think. But this doesn't make any sense. When I found this out about you and I've had the joy of having lunch with you. So I know it's true. You were mainlining the tea and the chips throughout. But you obviously you've had a bit of water through tea, but you've never had it neat. Is that what we're saying? Neat neat straight up

clear arrogant if you like they're just the just the absolute check me out I'm so good for you I don't like it and I said this I went on a podcast and a brilliant podcast hosted by Ed Campbell and James Acaster and they said and you go and you're in your dream restaurant. And they said, what water would you like? I was like, that's a disgrace. And then they wanted to discuss it with me for literally 62 minutes. Well, I promise I've not allocated the whole hour to you, Claudia Winkleman. But we had to start. It's a bit like I did have this just before I went away. I was talking on a podcast where you know exactly what you just said. I thought I was in the majority. And I actually need to tell there's been a there's been a poll on this since and I'm not in the

majority I'm going to ask Claudia Winkleman I thought I was in the majority firmly so about wearing knickers under pajama bottoms I always have and always will and apparently most women in this country do not I I've got quite a lot to say about this so buckle up it's a solid no Emma it's a solid no why would you wear do you also wear a sock do you wear a lederhosen no you're snuggling up

maybe you're going to read a book to your little baby I know he's not a baby anymore and you put on a comfy bottom no do you wear wellies in bed I often wear a sock I know he's not a baby anymore. Or, you know, you're going to be, and you put on a comfy bottom. No, do you wear wellies in bed? I often wear a sock. It's not the same. OK, well, I'm sorry to say you're wrong on this and you're wrong on water, Claudia. I think it's clear. But you're going to be on safer ground with the pants. That's what I can assure you. The water, less so.

I did say it's called quite, just to remind you, that's what it's called, your book. Why quite? It is a brilliant word. It's my favourite word because it means an awful lot and also not much. So, and I only wrote it because, this is not a good thing to admit, but I was a terrible homeschooler. And I'm just going to say out loud now that teachers are extraordinary. We've always known that. I've always known that.

I've got an 18-year-old who's just done just done his A levels. But what they do is unbelievable. A class of 30. And I only had one. My other two are big. And I couldn't get past five minutes. And I'd start off with Vim. Let us find out about Darwin. I've got no idea. I can't remember anything.'m 49 this will be fun um cut to four minutes later going the beagle was not a dog how have you not worked this out anyway so I had to put my house and I thought maybe I'd write something important and I ended up really not doing that and I wrote about melted cheese and pirate boots and the importance of napping and why I've only worked because I've got a fringe and I did tell Harper Collins I was, you don't have to go ahead with this. I mean, this is just embarrassing. But there is actually a lot of good advice in there. It's bottled.

And I thought we could go through it. I mean, not least because we actually covered this the week before last, because there's a new film on it. You say to women in particular, channel your inner Jackie Collins. And there is a new film about her life. And I've been channeling her ever since you interviewed her. I interviewed her and she blew me away. I have a very lucky job. Both of us meet fascinating, brilliant women. And I just want to sit opposite them. And I sort of drank her in. And I tell you what she was. She was she was raw power, but kind.

So you can be both. So she was charming and adorable, knew everybody's names and offered us pistachios, which I've never got over. So glamorous. Also a specific nut. You come to my house, you get to wiggle it. Very, very bad for broadcasting a pistachio, but carry on. Very salty. There you go. you might need water which will never do and she what but she was top to toe leopard i mean i think at one point she even threw on a beret and anyway and when it's a nonsense chapter the whole thing is a nonsense obviously but it was just hang on claudia you're doing exactly what jackie collins would never do because i've just watched lots of footage of her. She would never say, my book is a nonsense. This is a nonsense.

It's her job. But the point is, do you think you need to or we need to do better at self-deprecation, not always being the default of women? It's not always the default. I've just mentioned Jackie Collins. There'll be plenty of other women who've had to teach themselves not to be like that. Or do you think it's actually a tool in our armory to be funny and get people on side because you are very funny well you're very kind i also i think the most important thing is to lower lower expectations on everything when i used to watch five films a week or when i studied history of art i had the most extraordinary teacher there is a theme here called mrs dale who said look we'll meet at the back of the Santa Maria Ferrari. It was a church in Venice. We were all like just girls who

wanted to smoke fags and flirt with boys and put pizza on our chests. I mean, that isn't code. We actually wanted to eat pizza. And she said, look, just meet us at the back of this church. Anyway, my mind, well, it exploded and I fell in love. I saw the greatest painting that has ever been painted in the history of the world. And it's Sissons of Sunta or Assumption of the Virgin. That was low expectation. So what I don't want to hear, I'm so grateful to be on your show to go quite, I think you'll quite enjoy it. I can't do that. So instead I say, if you find it in a skip and you have nothing else on, have a look at it.

Don't do any more than that but I think that's part of your charm isn't it I mean that's the thing you can use humor you also talk about imposter syndrome being a good thing and having friends who make you raise your game there's quite there's quite a lot about how to to get yourself you know propel yourself forward but without perhaps losing yourself yes I think the key is don't try and be perfect. I think we're bombarded now with pictures of, you know, a woman, I don't know, or a man doing a star jump in front of a sandbank and the children are all, you know,

mummy, more broccoli, please. And I think we all put too much pressure on ourselves. So be ramshackle, be useless, not fully useless, but sort of do the best you can. But mainly don't feel all that. That's why I think imposter syndrome is quite useful. You and I have both met people who I imagine all of us, everybody who's listening, have gone, guys, I'll take this. And they feel I deserve to be here. I was born to be here. Don't worry. worry oh this presentation

or this nappy change leave this to me babe you don't you don't want to be with that person I don't think or the perfect person let's talk about the pressure in terms of your working life because I was very struck and a lot of people were very struck by one of my colleagues here on radio for Amal Rajan when he started on the Today programme. He, the night before, said he had a full on panic attack and talked about, you know, not sleeping away and basically having a bit. I think he had a bit of rum before he got up to do it at four o'clock in the morning. We did something, didn't we? And then he was brilliant. Well, I was going to say, you took over from Graham Norton not long ago on Radio 2.

And how were you the night before and how were those nerves? Horrific, because Graham is extraordinary at what he does. And I'd listen to him every single morning, wherever I was in the world. I'd be like, Mummy, let's go and meet the actual real life unicorn. All well and good. He's just played the Pogues. He's about to do an interview. We never actually met a unicorn. I also can't bear holidays, but that's another story. It is. It's in the book.

But so taking over from Graham felt enormous. When the boss of Radio 2 phoned me and offered me the job, I assumed she was joking. So I just put the phone down. I viewed it as a prank. I was like, very funny, put the phone down. She called back. She's called Helen, the boss of Radio 2.

She was like, no, Claude, that was a question. I was like, interesting. So I was terrified just because I didn't want to let everybody down. We don't know if anybody's listening yet. And if they're not, then I will quietly back away. But how, you know, hang on, because I've listened and it's a lot of fun already. And you know, people listen because they're getting in touch with you as they are, by the way, right now with me, with a few people. I can't quite believe this, saying you're bang on about water. Vicky says, I don't like water either. I thought I was odd. Hello, Claudia.

And Kyle's joining in. Claudia's bang on about water. Finally, someone's able to speak up. You've got a group here. I would love to meet Kyle and the the lovely girl maybe in trafalgar square and we can just look with utter disdain at the fountains but but i suppose how did you deal with the nerves because you've got to go out on that stage you've got to do it on radio too you've got to do it on strictly and people always want to hear how others and in your case a high

profile woman like yourself how you bring it how it. How did you cope the night before? I think I didn't cope very well the night before. There are two things to say. One, I'm not in an operating theatre holding a scalpel. Two, I am not giving a really important talk on Romeo and Juliet to GCSE kids a week before their exam. I realise what I do is not important on any level. So you also have to, I have to have some

perspective. So even though I'm terrified and I can't sleep and I think I'm going to mess it all up and I'll never work again, is that so bad? You know, that somebody comes in and goes, you're right, you're absolutely awful. Please walk home and take your strange cheese sandwiches and lack of water with you. So perspective is important. And also, that's my job. I mean, I know it's also to orange up and wear too much eyeliner. And I always really liked exams. And I try to instill this in my kids.

Can you imagine how annoying they find me? But I liked being tested. If you said to me now, Claude, I'm involved in this charity. I can't get to the lunch. Can you go? It's three hours away and you'll be sitting with people you don't know and you have to give a...

I mean, I'd be scared, but of course I would do it for you. Not that you would ever want me to do that. It's ridiculous. Don't worry, Emma, I've got it. I think it would be a massive upgrade for the audience. I'll suggest it at another point. But you like being able to bring it.

And then I think perspective is a great piece of advice because you can always say it's just this and remember the reality of it. And I wanted to ask though, another thing that's very unique about you, I think in the way that certainly it's not just women, but it can be more women on television to be a certain way.

And I think you've always managed to retain your edge and be yourself, even on a very big vehicle, very big programme like Strictly. Is that hard to do? You're so sweet. No, I have a brilliant boss. Brilliant. I've always had wonderful bosses and nothing against men. Strict strictly is predominantly run by women so sarah is our leader and they let us be us i think people will i i don't know where who you've worked with but i'm sure people have said no emma you've absolutely got to be you so i think in the world of telly and also with a book with publishing they were what, a whole chapter on squirrel etiquette. Which we do need to explain. And we've mentioned it twice now.

But OK, so that's the point. You have to have people who obviously want that and facilitate that. And has it been amazing doing it with Tess, you know, being a sisterhood on air? Absolutely amazing. And I was really uncomfortable at the beginning. There was a lot of two women. I was like, no, no, but two women already present the most successful show on television. And that was Mel and Sue on Bake Off. So I was like, let's not make this a biggie. But Tess is the kindest, sweetest. I mean, she's so adorable doing it this year without an audience. She'd literally be going, babe, if you try adorable doing it this year without an audience. She'd literally be going, babe, if you try, I know Jake loves a toasty. If you try chopping in some fried onions

and they'd go in five, four. And you go, welcome. But she's wonderful. And it's a great friend. And as I said, our director is a BAFTA award-winning woman. We are surrounded by fantastic women. Are you a decent dancer? We've heard a lot about lockdown kitchen discos. Chronic, I'm going. Absolutely, I'm terrible. Really? Yeah, because also I'm not very good at drinking,

but if I have one margarita, I'm like, guys, I'm not being funny, but Beyonce's just called and she's going to want me to do some moves right here in this little pizza express so guys just everyone get ready so I'm under the impression that I'm in some sort of music video but no I'm not very good at dancing I mean I don't I've now got probably two massive they're not massive they're normal sized teenagers and New Year's Eve obviously you couldn't see anyone so it was just us and i was like let's put on some music and dance and i tried to sort of dance in front of them and they they still feel

nauseous about they do that's that's squirrel etiquette can we just briefly run me through that very briefly yes so uh in lockdown i discovered outdoors so i don't have a garden i've never really been outdoors. And it was that- You're just a dehydrated woman at home. Yes, carry on. Small, parched, bright orange prune ember. That's the truth. But it was a gift.

We live quite near a park and we would go for our allocated hour and it felt magical. And I took my nine-year-old. We named every squirrel. You have to be quite wary of Giles. He's cocky and when I was writing but he was like well mummy you've got to include squirrel etiquette which he takes quite seriously. Oh sweet I have to say and I wanted to come back to your children and you've obviously brought them up during our chat and

throughout the book and you know in terms of what you what you talk about and what you share I know you're very careful about their privacy as well, but there's a lot of fun and joy, like my three-year-old saying the sun had gone on a different holiday for our last week. And, you know, very briefly on that, you always love getting home, which I can also relate to after a holiday. But the bit of the book that really did make me tear up was where you talk about at the end them leaving home.

And this is about to happen, isn't it? Start happening. I don't want to cry on your show because I feel like it's the beginning of the week and let's be upbeat. But I don't know what I genuinely don't know what I'm going to do. I mean, we all have to do it. And we all I can't. There aren't any words. He goes September 13th. I phoned the boss of Strictly quite dramatically and said, through tears, Sarah, I love you and I never want to leave Strictly. Or Tess and I have agreed we'll leave together when they're done with us. That's fine. But if the first show is September 13, I'm out and you have to go with somebody else.

And there was a beat and she went, quite dramatic. We don't start that week. But because it's a rite of passage, I have to go and hang up his posters and I don't know I mean it's not because I love him more than other people love their kids I think this is something that parents have to go through um and I I don't know how it's going to work exactly. You'll have to come back and talk to us. September 14th, we'll get you in. We'll make you a cup of tea with limited water and we'll look after you. But please put some pants on with your pyjamas,

Claudia Winkleman. And thank you very much for taking us through some of those squirrels in your local park. And the book, she doesn't want to remember it, but if you want to know what it's called, it's called Quite. Claudia Winkleman, thank you for talking to us. Thank you so much. Lovely to have you on uh many messages coming in on this

uh i just want to read this one from case i know claudia is saying she doesn't do an important job but genuinely strictly and her radio 2 show has been a huge comfort to me through covid and long covid her attitude humor and way of being has really cheered me up and made me feel like something normal is happening. And a few others not necessarily agreeing with the water point, but we'll come back to that very soon indeed. Now, later today, the Labour MP Yvette Cooper, who is chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee and has just joined me in the studio, is tabling an amendment to the controversial police crime sentencing and courts bill to try to change the law on common assault. This offence may include acts such as kicking, slapping or spitting, all of which are classed as a summary offence of lower severity

as they're tried in a magistrate's court. But she and others are concerned that many cases are going unheard altogether unless the offence is reported and brought within six months because it effectively gets timed out, meaning domestic abuse survivors who are often in difficult, vulnerable situations are not getting justice. There is cross-party support for this amendment and she joins us now to explain more.

Good morning, Yvette Cooper. Good morning, Emma. Do you think this is definitely on? It has to get called, doesn't it, by the Speaker? It does and we'll wait to see what happens later today. I'm very keen for it too, though, because this is a time limit that applies to so many domestic abuse cases that I think most people aren't aware of

and certainly most victims are not aware of as well. And it can mean that people don't get justice for awful crimes and abuse and also that perpetrators are let off the hook, that there's no action against them and they can go on to then abuse or commit further crimes again. So I think that this time limit needs to be increased. It's different for domestic abuse cases. You know, you've got the law seems to be designed around the kinds of cases that might be a fight in the street or an altercation in the pub, but not domestic abuse, where there can be so many reasons why someone might not be able to report the crime straight away.

But that clock starts ticking and it's six months from the point at which the crime happens to prosecution charges being laid. And if they're not, then the crime falls. What was the reason for that? happens to prosecution charges being laid. And if they're not, then the crime falls. What was the reason for that? Is it an oversight? Or was it for a reason that now has become obsolete as we have learned more? So I think there's two things. You can see why the legal system is designed to try and get cases quickly through the magistrates courts, for things to not get stuck, not get held up for years and years, and for straightforward or recent offences to go quickly through the magistrates' courts, for things to not get stuck, not get held up for years and years, and for straightforward or recent offences

to go quickly through the magistrates' courts. So that's why they've got this six-month limit on common assault. But domestic abuse is different, and I think it goes back to that heart of the way the legal system has been designed without taking seriously violence against women, without understanding the experiences of so many victims of domestic abuse. If you're still in an abusive relationship, if you're afraid for your safety, if you've tried to leave but you're still trying to get the kids settled,

you're still trying to sort out so many different things in your life, you need sometimes to get the courage together to be able to talk to the police. There are so many different reasons why it might take domestic abuse victims more than six months in order to be able to report a crime that's happened. And yet for those victims, they're ending up not getting justice at all. And also they might not even know there is a time limit when they first are in this situation, this awful situation. If it does get picked, are you confident about its success? I mean, who's supporting you? I mentioned there's cross-party support. We do have cross-party support. I'm hoping that the government will

recognise the importance of this and will decide to act. Because to me, it seems like a common sense measure. And all that we're saying is that it should be six months from the point of reporting, not six months from the point of the offence actually taking place. Give victims the time to be able to come forward and talk to the police. And I think there is cross-party support for that. So my hope is that actually ministers will recognise, do you know what, this is the right thing to do. We should do this. We've already seen prosecutions for domestic abuse have dropped by over 30% in the

last few years. Convictions have dropped, police referrals have dropped. The government has to take some responsibility and do something about this. So I'm hoping if we get cross-party support today, that will put the pressure on the government to say, yep, this needs to be sorted because victims need justice and perpetrators need to be stopped. You talk about people not getting justice and how important that is. I wonder if I could just ask you for an update on something else as the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee. In March earlier this year, your committee took evidence from Lady Diana Britton, widow of the former Home Secretary,

Leon Britton, about Operation Midland, of course, the disastrous Met Police VIP abuse inquiry, which saw her husband falsely accused by the now jailed fantasist Carl Beach. She said there has not been much justice, quote, for the public figures investigated and accused. Many, including six former Home Secretaries, have demanded an independent investigation into the police's actions. Considering you want people to have faith in the police and you talk about justice for people, do you support that? Will you? Well, we are really concerned about what happened. Operation Midland was clearly a very serious failure. There has obviously been the Henriquez investigation into what happened, but there are still considerable concerns.

And we heard, I think, very strong evidence from Lady Britain about the way not just the police investigation, but also the complaints procedure just didn't work. So we've taken evidence on that. We've also put questions to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner as well. And we are going to be following that up as part of our inquiry. And we're just drawing up the report on that. So very happy to come back to you when we've concluded our inquiry and to let you know

what our conclusions are at that point, if that's all right. When's it concluding? Well, I'll have to let you know because it's a committee process to conclude the report. So hopefully soon. May I ask though, not about the process of the committee though, but you yourself, would you support an independent inquiry? Would it be healthy for the Metropolitan Police to have that? So they have had the Henriquez inquiry already. I do think that further questions have to be answered. But again, I will need to conclude this as part of the committee's work. I can't preempt that. I also just wanted to ask with regards to your own party, the top woman in your party, the deputy leader of Labour, Angela Rayner, has been forced to deny a story that she'd been plotting to oust Keir Starmer if that Batley and Spen by-election hadn't gone Labour's way. Were you approached about an ousting of Keir or did you hear of any of this?

I certainly wasn't. I think the whole Labour Party needs to come together. I'm so pleased that Kim Ledbetter was elected. It's just about half an hour's drive down the road from my constituency as well. And she's amazing. And she's a fantastic candidate. And I think that means the whole of the Shadow Cabinet needs to pull together. The whole of the Labour Party needs to pull together, I think now. And I think there's a lot of work to do over the summer. So I do think that the Shadow know, the Shadow campaign needs to set out a series of strong campaigns over the summer. For me, the one I would like to see them

put at the heart of that actually is a campaign for children and a campaign for children's future. They've done some good work, but I think they need to go much further in putting everyone together. Maybe we'll talk about that. But the point is you're saying

they need to pull together. So there's still issues there and there's seemingly big, intractable issues that need to be surmounted are you why are you not in the shadow cabinet that's a matter for for kia he's got to choose his own shadow would you like to be that's a matter for him he's uh you could say if he's not asked he's not asked me to do so you know look there's loads of great jobs both in the shadow cabinet and also in select committees as well but it's a matter for him if i can would you would you say yes if he asked you

it's a matter for him to ask it's a matter for him well i just i'm minded you know annalise dodds was sat in that seat only a few weeks ago telling me she'd still be chancellor in the week later she wasn't things change quickly in politics i wanted to get a sense of whether you would like to i don't think i'm getting that answer. But one more, if I may. Very serious point, something that affects a lot of people, but also I know the listeners of Women's Hour will care greatly about. It was very striking a column in the Sunday Times yesterday from the former MP Anna Soubry, who talked about Kim Ledbetter needing police protection. Of course, the younger sister of the murdered MP, your friend Jo Cox, needing police protection during that campaign, which was brutal in so many ways. Where was the outrage, she wrote, about that and that we've seen the the harassment and and intimidation that

was you know clearly aimed at Kim and so distressing that it should happen as well in the very place that we lost Kim's sister and it has become I think too often normalized when you talk to MPs so many MPs will have stories now of court cases that have been taken against people who were either threatening them, trying to intimidate or harass them. It's happened to me, it's happened to countless MPs. I do worry that we're seeing really the undermining of democracy and that there does need to be something much stronger against this. But I think some of this is also about the way in which we have allowed social media abuse to also legitimise abuse that then takes place on the street. And also if people see a video of someone being shouted at in the street,

well, then they think, oh, well, that's OK then. This is how we now behave. And the kind of thing that we would all have been appalled about 20 years ago is somehow just, yeah, that's the kind of thing that happens. And it just shouldn't. But it requires all of us to say this is unacceptable and everyone to behave the way actually they want to be treated themselves. Not to think it's OK to just intimidate people. That's why I wanted to ask you this morning. final question that I've asked all of our listeners. We've been talking about if there's a gender dispute between men and women, now we're going to be moving, we believe, to a world where masks are not mandatory by law, but will be at your own discretion. Are you going to ditch the mask, Yvette Cooper? You know, I would so love to because, you know, when I wear glasses and it all steams up, it's a complete nightmare. But I think

as long as the scientists are saying that this is important, as long as this is a way of preventing other people getting long COVID or preventing other people having to miss work or lose their pay and children having to miss school, I think we've got a responsibility to keep on wearing them. So, yes, I will still be. Is Ed Balls, your husband, any better at wearing a mask than you? Oh, that is a good question. Actually, he probably does get more grumpy about wearing them than I do. But I think, yeah, most of the time he will still try. It's good to ask. We asked the economist at the top of the programme and she said her other half actually was better.

But it seems to be a variety out there. Thank you for talking to us on a variety of issues. Good to talk to you, Emma. We will hear about your amendment if it gets picked and then what happens with it. Already some messages saying that this has actually affected some of our listeners. Yvette Cooper, thank you. Thank you.

Your message is coming in on 84844 to do less snow about the mask issue and whether you think that is a potential gender issue. But to go to another battle, a woman who has Down syndrome is taking the government to court this week. Heidi Carter is fighting for a change in the law around termination and Down syndrome is taking the government to court this week. Heidi Carter is fighting for a change in the law around termination and Down syndrome. Currently, the time limit to terminate a pregnancy is 24 weeks. But if the foetus has Down syndrome, then that shifts right up to birth. Heidi feels that's wrong and wants the time limit to be set at 24 weeks for all pregnancies. Moya Lee Wilson, whose son Aidan has Down syndrome, is also one of the claimants in this civil case. Heidi and Moira are with me now. Heidi, I'll start with you. How do you feel about going to the High Court this week and why is this so important for you to do that?

I am nervous and I'm more excited than nervous because I've never been to the High Court before. And the reason why I'm so nervous is because the government are so anti my case. Yes. And you want to argue this because of what? Why do you want to make this point? Because I am someone who has Down syndrome. And I want to show them that I can live up from life yes well I should say congratulations you recently got married it's also just been your birthday I believe yeah my birthday and our first wedding anniversary oh there you go congratulations on all of those thank you I'm sure James will be happy to hear that uh Moya, let me bring you in. And we have talked about this on Woman's Hour at the end of last year. And last time you were on, you knew you had permission to go to the High Court, but didn't know, they're both really headstrong, independent, funny boys, you know, and they are different, different strengths, weaknesses and personalities.

And it just seems so strange and wrong to me that they should be differentiated in the eyes of the law. You know, Tom's life was protected from 24 weeks, whereas Aidan, you know, I was offered a termination three times in the sort of two weeks before he was born, which was very traumatic. And I do really worry about the way that, you know, the law allows language around Down syndrome, like, you know, women may not be able to cope or abnormality or it's a risk, that that really will affect Aidan's sort of mental health and self-esteem as he grows up so I really want the law to change because I really want him to be seen as equal and valued by society and I think if we are a society that does proclaim that we value disability and non-disability equally the law really should change to reflect that narrative. May I just play you and all of our listeners what Claire Murphy had to say the last time you and Heidi were on the programme. She's from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service.

I don't want the law to change. And I think it's really important that we recognise that this legal challenge isn't about protecting or refusing abortion just on the basis of Down syndrome. It basically looks to eliminate women's access to termination for any so-called non-fatal fetal anomalies, which sounds very neat and fits into a neat box. But unfortunately, medical diagnoses can be incredibly complex. And what we see with abortions after 24 weeks of which there are actually very few we're looking at less than fewer than 300 abortions over 24 weeks on the basis of ground d of which where down syndrome is is mentioned we're only looking at last year's statistics for

around 12 abortions so down syndrome doesn't actually feature very prominently in these small number of abortions. What this case looks to do is to eliminate women's access where the condition is deemed non-fatal. And that's incredibly difficult to do because what generally happens is a woman might find herself with multiple conditions and having to make a decision in conjunction with the medical professionals treating her. These are incredibly difficult decisions and they are decisions which absolutely need to be left to a woman in partnership with her family and the doctors and nurses who are caring for her. Moira, let me bring you back in on that. Taking away a woman's right to choose, putting women under pressure in difficult circumstances, surely not your intention from what you were just describing as the reasoning for this?

No, it's absolutely not. And I think actually what Claire said was quite inaccurate, actually, because we're not looking to eliminate access to abortion. We're only looking to repeal one section of the Abortion Act, which is Section 1.1d, which is about the characteristics of the fetus. There are other parts of the abortion act which allow for um abortion up to birth if the woman's um mental or physical well-being is at grave risk and we think that it would be a better assessment going forwards for that to be the basis for abortion um you know late term it puts the focus on to the woman and you know, late term, it puts the focus onto the woman and, you know, her rights, rather than putting the focus onto the fetus. And, you know, stating that these are lives of lesser value.

I also think it's interesting that Claire brings up the point about the small number of abortions, you know, we, you know, it makes sense that it's a small number because we're really talking about a minority group with protective characteristics, which are people with disabilities. So it would be a smaller number. But discrimination is no less unjust if it's against 1% of the population, 2% of the population, 10% of the population. So I think the question that we really need to be asking ourselves is actually as a society, do we really fully believe in the concepts in the Equality Act and the Disability Discrimination Act and do we really believe that people with disabilities are equal and valued in line with the rest of the population and I think if we have a law that singles out people with disabilities and perpetuates

negative stereotypes about those disabilities. Well, that's not compatible. We had a question come in about how much of your case is about Down Syndrome pregnancies or about protecting other disabilities, issues to do with club foot, cleft palate. What's the answer to that? So the case is about all non-fatal disabilities. So we want to get Section 11D of the Act removed. So at the moment, it's really at the discretion of a doctor to decide what a serious handicap is, which is the wording in the law, which is quite outdated. So it would kind of remove clubfoot and cleft palate.

And, you know, we think that that's right and that's fair. You know, Heidi is an amazing self-advocate and she feels really strongly about this case, which is why, you know, she wants to take it and why I'm taking it with her. But it is, it is broader than Down syndrome. When will you know the result? We're not really sure. So we're in court Tuesday and Wednesday. And then we've been told that it could take some time for the judges to reach a decision. Well, we will talk again. Thank you for coming on. Heidi, let me give the final word to you.

How are you going to cope with the pressure this week? What's your kind of feeling going into this? Are you hopeful? Well, I'm hoping that it'll win this case. And I won't be in the court for a long time because that would take the pressure off. Because my mum said it would be too upsetting for me to listen to all of this.

So it's going to happen in London. OK. Thank you for talking to us this morning. It's OK. It's lovely to have you on the programme again. And we will talk again, Heidi and Moya there, Heidi Carter and Moya Lee Wilson. Your message is coming in about the changes we're expecting from the prime minister later today. Just to read a couple more here. I did say, please, could some of our male listeners feel like they could get in touch and you have delivered in droves. And Tom says, on masks, I hate wearing them. Like Yvette Cooper,

you just heard, I wear glasses and they fog over, but will wear them to protect other people from whatever I have. I don't see it as a gender issue, more about caring about other people as an issue. But Alan has emailed to say this, as a man, I totally expect to wear masks less than women. From my own point of view, I do not like being told how to behave, particularly when the logic behind imposition is patchy. It's not to do with risks. It's to do with compliance, from his point of view. Alas, most antisocial behaviour is from men, not all, as generally they care less about how they're perceived by others, often to the point of being obnoxious, sadly. However, the positive point is that as a society, we need to rebel against COVID hysteria to get society on the right path to normality.

Men are more likely to rebel against the constant negative messaging and to make a stand. Men are more likely to rebel. You don't know some of our listeners, Alan, but I take your wider points there and I thank you for sending them in and another one here from another one of our male listeners, Joe, says I always wear a mask and I will continue to do so after the regulations are lifted. Another one here, in a pat train carriage full of male rugby supporters

to Scotland last weekend, my daughter and I were the only ones in masks. There does seem to be a gender element to this and I'm sure we will come back to this. Keep your messages coming in. It's very useful and very helpful to get them, to receive them and to see what you think about this. But let's talk now and let's have a bit of music, shall we,

with Lily Harris, who at 27 is a highly successful young composer whose works have already been played by the London Philharmonic Orchestra, Fretwork and the Royal Scottish National Orchestra, as well as performed at venues such as the Southbank Centre and the Science Museum. Lily graduated with a first-class degree from the Royal College of Music in 2016 after winning the Elgar Memorial Prize for her final portfolio.

Tonight, two of her new works will premiere at this year's Cheltenham Music Festival, a trumpet fanfare and a choral piece. Let's hear it, Bette. I find as net the dreamer's head. I root, Sarata, out of heart. Lily, I'm not going to even try and describe what we were just listening to because I have you and I want to hear what you have to say. What was that, first of all? So that was an extract of my new choral piece it's called The Dusk of

Thee it's a setting of the second poem section in Tennyson's In Memoriam which is a really haunting poem that he wrote when he lost a dear dear friend aged only 22 so it's a really poignant reflection on loss and so the poem that I set is the second one and it's a sort of an address to a yew tree and it's he's kind of railing against the fact that yew trees are a very special kind of tree they're essentially immortal and obviously they live forever and they come back again and and when the spring comes life renews but his friend is gone and so it's a kind of reflection of both the beauty of the return of nature and life in the spring but also the sadness of loss

That will ring true for a lot of people this year in many ways and perhaps we'll come back to what inspires your compositions but just there's something else that's happened with this isn't it it's going to be performed by Merton College Choir, well that was performed I should say due to be premiered this evening but the choir

I understand have had to self-isolate? Yeah that's right, it's been a dramatic evening for poor Camilla King, head of programming of Cheltenham Music Festival but she's managed to get a replacement choir, the Caress Singers have very kindly stepped in to perform and I understand they're going to give it a go

with one day's notice which is absolutely incredible but I guess that's the times we're living in and that's what we have to be prepared to do, to put safety first. And that's what Cheltenham seemed to have done. When did you find that out? Yesterday evening. I love the way you say that so calmly.

Yesterday evening, I found out the choir that are meant to be performing my piece could not. Was that a stressful moment? It was a little bit stressful, yeah. But it's one of those things where there's nothing else you can do. You have to put safety first. So many people, we mentioned um what kind of gets them out of themselves and makes them feel still like everything's okay i remember a few weeks ago got in touch to say singing in their choir you know what that gives them and they haven't been able to

that's been a real great sadness obviously and i i actually rejoined a choir not long ago in sort of september 2019 and we haven't sort of met and performed since then. So that's been really sad. And obviously there's so many people up and down this country who haven't been able to sing because of the restrictions on amateur choirs, particularly, and obviously professional choirs, ideally rehearsing outdoors. And so it's been really difficult.

And it's such a strong and important part of particularly British musical life. The choral society tradition is really, really strong in this country. And it's an amazing outlet for people to be able to come together and sing because it just, it's really lovely. What does inspire you when you sit down and you've got the blank page? How do you begin? That's a tricky question. It's sort of different lots of times. And recently, I've been writing lots of choral music, which it's quite helpful because you have the text to set so you've already got that context of of the words and the emotional weight of them and the story that they're telling and so it's already giving you a direction of what it wants to say and therefore what you need to do as the composer to to bring out this text and

show it at its fullest and enhance all the emotion inside it. And I suppose when you play, I know you play how many instruments? A few, but not all that well. OK. Piano, flute? Guitar. Guitar. OK. Andy Singh, why composing? What drew you to that? I've always been sort of interested in telling stories and writing and expressing myself that way. I was convinced that I would be the first published author still in primary school um I think I was a bit ambitious based on what I was writing at the time um but then I like the fact you were convinced though

that's good I was I was absolutely convinced um and and as I was going through my teens and I was sort of trying to think of something a bit more stable a bit more of a career path it just nothing just quite stuck I was interested in various things, but nothing felt right. And eventually I just came back to, it was initially film music, because the way that it enhances the story. Oh, it's the other character, isn't it? Yeah, and it puts you right in it.

And if you listen to the soundtrack later, you sort of watch the film back and it puts you right in it. And I just think that's so powerful, the way it can move you and enhance the story. So I was like, I just said to my mum, no, I'm just going to have to do it. I'm just going to have to follow that road. And when composers get it really right or when the people picking the music for footage

get it really right, you almost want to keep watching that bit and hear the music again and again. I had that only last night watching Succession finally. Lily Harris, good luck for this evening. Thank you very much. I'm so happy they managed to find a replacement choir. Good luck to them.

Yes, well done. Indeed. That's the premiere this evening at the Cheltenham Music Festival. And that was Lily Harris you were listening to. Coming back to our masks debate, a few others have come in. In fact, so many messages.

Thank you for this. Sophie from West Sussex. Good morning to you. Me and my husband are 50. He forgets his mask a lot, but I think men are just less considerate for others. I'm not worried about catching it, having been through throughout and worn a mask

and so others felt comfortable around me. It's just courtesy, isn't it? Men have less courtesy. It's a fact, says Sophie. I'm just stressing that in case you're just joining me and thinking I'm saying that. Dreadful idea here to make masks voluntary, says another. Middle-aged men have bigger faces and noses. Working in a hospital,

it's clear the masks don't stay up as well for people with bigger shaped faces. So yes, a gender issue, but also anatomy. And Southern Man says to get men to wear masks, why don't we make them 1940s oxygen masks and tell them that they're Spitfire pilots? There's a thought. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.