Woman's Hour - Clemency Burton-Hill, V&A African fashion exhibition, Liverpool Mayor Wendy Simon, Presidential Inauguration.

Episode Date: January 20, 2021

Emma Barnett with Clemency Burton-Hill's first interview since she suffered a brain haemorrhage a year ago today. She talks about how music has helped her ongoing recovery, and how she has learnt to speak again. Sindiso Khumalo & Dr Christine Checinska on the V&A museum's African fashion exhibition, the new interim mayor of Liverpool Wendy Simon talks about being thrust into the role last month as Covid 19 cases were rising exponentially and as Joe Biden assumes the US Presidency we hear from Sarah Elliot from Republicans Overseas UK and Joan Walsh, the National Affairs Correspondent for The Nation and a CNN political contributor. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma here with today's episode of the Woman's Hour podcast. I hope you get a lot from it. Good morning. There's a lot of dark in the world at the moment, not least the UK recording its highest daily COVID death toll yesterday and people still being separated from their nearest and dearest, unable to see them, let alone hug or kiss. But today we bring you a remarkable story of hope,

recovery and love. Clemency Burton-Hill may be a name you're familiar with. She was formerly of this parish, making documentaries for Radio 4, a Radio 3 presenter and host of the BBC Sounds podcast, Classical Fix. The world was at her feet when suddenly her world went dark. She suffered a serious brain bleed, some more details on that shortly, and fell into a 17-day coma. When she awoke, she couldn't move or speak, despite being able to understand everything everyone around her was saying. It was agony. Today she

joins us for her first broadcast interview. She only relearned to talk in a way others could understand more coherently a mere eight weeks ago and it is a remarkable conversation. Truly you'll hear it next. But what I want to ask you today is this. How have you overcome adversity or perhaps how has someone you've loved and been close to during a period of adversity for them? What have you overcome and how? Do share with us because that is the power of radio. We can share these stories. We never know who's listening or who we're helping by doing so. And that's something I know Clemmie feels very strongly about. Music for her has been a huge source of strength.

It's helped her enormously, but it's also been painful and bittersweet, which she explains. What about you? Regardless of what it's been, perhaps it's just been the experience of this year. Tell us what has got you through tough times and on the road to some form of recovery. Text WOMENZOUR on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Check with network provider for those exact costs. Or if you prefer on social media, it's BBC WOMEN'S HOUR, or email us through our website. Also on today's programme, we'll be considering the Trump legacy with two women on opposite sides of that deeply entrenched political divide in America. Of course, more than 70 million people voted for Donald Trump in the election. But as Joe Biden is sworn in later today,

how might women's lives change? And Africa fashion at the V&A Museum. The curators need you. They need your help. We shall explain all. Still to come in the programme, so stay with us for that. But a year ago to the day, Clemency Burton-Hill, an ex-BBC presenter now living in New programme, so stay with us for that. But a year ago to the day, Clemency Burton-Hill, an ex-BBC presenter now living in New York, was at work when suddenly her speech started slurring and she collapsed. She was rushed to the Brooklyn Hospital Centre, where an emergency scan revealed a bleed in her left frontal lobe. Aged 39, seemingly fighting fit, a busy, successful mum to two young boys, a devoted wife to James, her husband.

She was having a massive brain haemorrhage caused by arteriovenous malformation, AVM. That's a tangle of abnormal blood vessels connecting arteries and veins. An AVM, which is rare, it's something that you're born with. Most people are oblivious to the condition and Clemmie certainly was. A bleed is even rarer, fewer than two to four percent hemorrhage. In most cases an AVM is only discovered through a severe rupture that can often be fatal. Luckily for her she came out of her coma after 17 days but as you'll hear next what Clemmie vividly recalls just before coming out of that coma is extraordinary. She was presented with a clear choice. This is Clemmie's first broadcast interview a year to the day since she collapsed.

It's only in the last few weeks she has been able to put sentences back together as she relearns to talk. I couldn't really speak at all in sentences for like a long time. At the beginning, I had no speech, really no speech. My mum and my friends who had come to New York before the pandemic in sort of early March, you know, they remember and talk about like, you know, I could only make sounds. So, you know, as unbelievably frustrated I might be now, like it's sort of a miracle that I can even have a conversation. So thank you. I'm so grateful to you that you're talking to us and taking the effort and making the time to do so.

And it is an extraordinary journey you've been on and you continue to be on. If I could keep just going with your speech, because it is miraculous from not being able to talk, you could understand everything that people were saying. Everything. How did that feel that you couldn't reply? There's no words, Emma. There's no words. I mean, I had come out of the coma for, I think, 17 days. And at that point, I just thought I was in a dream or a nightmare.

Like, what? What? What? And I just thought I was about to speak. And I mean, in a way, I'm still making sense of that. But, of course, now it's my reality. But, like, I might be processing of that for, like, my whole life because, as you know, you know, speeches was my thing. Yes. No, of course. But I think the thought of being able to understand, but not being able to speak, but now being able to speak again,

because some people never can again. You were in this very rare position of being able to articulate how that feels. I mean, is it despair? Is it anger? Is it frustration when you can't reply? It's all of those things. And it's something nameless, which is beyond language, because it's so instinctive and then you can't do it. The doctors think that your history as a speech broadcaster, as someone who communicates for a living, may have helped.

Is that right, in terms of getting back on the road to doing what we're doing now, which, again, I want to say how happy we are doing, talking? We don't really know. I suppose the brain is so, like, mysterious. I mean, but various of my doctors have said, like, you had a really amazing recovery with your speech. Maybe it is the fact that, like, you're such an instinctive muscle. Like if you think about an athlete or a football player

or like a tennis player, sort of if this happens to them, maybe they might recover more and quickly as the muscle memory of their thing. I hate to say, like, speech with my tennis racket, but, like, you know, I suppose it was. I felt very, very comfortable in a studio and a live studio, sometimes more than the normal life. Oh, I can relate to that.

And I'm sitting actually in a studio you have used here at the BBC. So that's quite a meta thing to say to a fellow speech radio presenter sitting where you have sat on the microphone. How do you relearn to speak, Clemmie? What do you actually do? You, you just start at the beginning. For example, it's really interesting that you don't just get it back. Obviously, there are things that you do get back quickly, but say in the first sort of few months, it's just made me so, so unbelievably frustrated. Like one day or even one hour, I could pour my word.

And then like the next minute, I couldn't. So it's not a linear progression my younger son is he was just one when it happened but he's now a top two so he is learning to speak and there are parallels in my language, but of course, it's completely different as well, because in my head, there's no problem with my speech. It's getting to the words, my speech impaired. And I hate the fact that that's how people describe it, like deficits and impaired. I mean, I know that people understand the word and the sort of language. Surely there's a better word like, you know, than... I love that as someone who is battling with words, you're still wanting the very best word for your situation.

You are nothing but consistently ambitious, which I've always respected about you, Clemmie. I have to ask you, this is somebody who has a great love and knowledge of music. Has music helped in your healing generally? I think there's two answers to that, if not many more. In a way, music has been, like my love of language, I guess, like the most amazing and motivating factor in my recovery so yes of course I think this is sort of like physical um benefit of music in my brain in my healing but it's actually sometimes just too painful and too raw, I've been someone who my whole life have relied on music

and not just classical music, all music, you know, as a teenager, like in my bedroom, like weeping over a boy. Like, of course, I, you know, I'm so grateful that music has always been there more than anything else, consistently my whole life. And- So in a way, is that bittersweet? There's a painfulness to it because you don't have what you had. You're so right. That's the word, bittersweet. There's a there's a painfulness to it because you don't have what you had. You're so right. That's the that's the word. Bittersweet. Sometimes it was too raw. I don't know why. I suppose it was like my my former life. this new reality and they weren't computing.

There was no pop song or like soul ballad or classical, you know, Bach or whatever, there was nothing that could be more than this new reality. You talk there about the rawness and I just wondered if you, and I know a lot of what you want to and you're already doing it in your answers and the way that you're being so honest with us, and a lot of what you want to do is about the positivity the luck the the fortune that you have and still be here and be with your sons and be with your husband and have your family and friends but it is also an incredibly dark thing that you have been through I mean the literally the world went dark for for 17 days year ago. And I just wonder if you

could take us as far as you would into the depths of that. I mean, how has it felt when it hasn't felt lucky or something you could find the positives? Because you are someone who was racing around New York, million miles an, with your family, with your friends, and the whole world to play for. It's been, of course, unbelievably sad sometimes and definitely difficult from a recovery point of view because it's recovery is not linear with a brain injury and I'm so used to and I think most people are like you know if I do this then that that'll happen like this doesn't work like that some days I literally had no words and I thought yesterday I could do this. And I am someone who doesn't have faith in terms of like religious faith. of my coma, I had the most extraordinary experience. I mean, to make it easier to sort of

explain, because I can't really explain, but I know absolutely that at that point I was given a choice this way it's going to be very hard are you sure you want to go this way or if you go this one it's going to be very easy and it's going to be fine and I don't want it to sound like some people might like choose not to live and like I don't know no no I don't think it does sound like that but what you're saying is you remember strongly there were two options open to you before you came out of your coma somewhere in your subconscious yeah and the way that could be just pain-free almost, and that would have been death, the end, or there's the other way, which is waking up and facing recovery. And it's going to be hard, but it's your choice.

And the amazing thing was that I was given that choice. And you can remember that clearly? More clearly than anything I've ever had. Wow. It wasn't even like a normal memory. It's like on another... I know I sound crazy, I sound like a kind of lunatic, but it's just absolutely what it was.

And is that why I've seen on some of your social media posts, the few that you've done, you say I choose life? Yeah. That's just given me tingles though that you can remember that and that happened. I know. It gonna it sounds wild doesn't it it sounds so weird and crazy but it is what happened and when you woke up what was your first memory I was sort of like this can't be like I just had a crazy dream or like a crazy nightmare like I can't wait to tell my husband about that because

it's so crazy and I'd be like oh my god there's a hospital there's beeping and I can't move anything and where am I who am I what's what's going on and of course then the point that I'm going to speak and I I can't speak anything I can't even make a noise at that point you went in on the the 20th of January we're talking a year to the day and 10th of April. I mean, what a remarkable journey on many levels and a huge thanks, as you have said to the remarkable staff, you did walk out of hospital unaided and you've written, it was Good Friday outside on East 17th Street. I remember hearing a taxi honk. It was the most miraculous thing I'd ever heard. It was an incredible moment. It was like starting again. You are now further along in this journey.

You are able to speak, and beautifully so, if I may say. I'm not, but thank you. You look a bit different also, just to describe on radio. Yeah, no, in the sense of still wonderful, wonderful smile, all those things, but you had to have your head shaved, didn't you, to have... Yes. Still wonderful, wonderful smile, all those things. But you had to have your head shaved, didn't you, to have... Yes, I had no half of my skull removed at the emergency brain surgery. So I've got a, it's sort of like a plastic skull. And there's a kind of operation called cranioplasty which is about two months later once the swelling came

a little bit down my amazing heroic brain surgeon Dr Christopher Kellner. He basically put my new half of a skull back. How are your boys doing? How are your two sons doing? Well, my boys are kind of amazing because my husband is very good at like make it like not normal because again there's a pandemic raging outside and they know something happened I mean especially the older one it's such a balance for everything I have to work out like a brain injury like this is incredibly stressful um obviously I'm so lucky I have a wonderful friend and family sort of support my my boys and James are like you know a team um they are the primary reason that I keep going if I'm honest but they're also sources of tremendous anxiety and it's not their fault they're little boys in the playground but um like every parent has this happen your radar is like always where where where are they is there obviously danger you don't even know that you're doing it you're just sort of like scanning the horizon but my brain can't sort of

sort it or filter so like threats is like all the time like everything's at the same level so sometimes it can be too much at the same time as they're the whole reason for you yeah they also introduce a whole level of hormonal anxiety loads of cortisol all those sorts of things that you can normally calibrate in a healthy space exactly beautifully put thank you i do i do have to ask you've mentioned him a couple of times, how is your husband? Because he has had to carry the fort and then some because of course, because of a pandemic, then the trips from family and friends also had to have a hiatus as many people have around the world. How's he doing? He's an extraordinary human. I always know that, but now it's on another level of his selflessness.

Is that right? It is. Again, I've had almost no language to describe. The clichés don't do it justice i mean it says it brings a whole other meaning to um in sickness and in health i'm sure into your household it really does clemency burton hill who i spoke to yesterday from new york a major reaction and response to what she had to say your own stories of resilience and overcoming adversity coming in i'll come back to those but just to say die got in touch to say i wanted to say, your own stories of resilience and overcoming adversity coming in. I'll come back to those, but just to say,

Di got in touch to say, I wanted to say I'm finding this interview absolutely incredible. My eyes are filled with tears listening to Clemmie and how she's describing her experience. An astonishing woman. Thank you for that. Another one here. Everyone should listen to Clemency on Woman's Hour.

She's an amazing woman who has fought back from a life-threatening brain bleed and an inspiration to us all in these very dark times. Bravo. Well, thank you to Clemmie for finding the energy to talk to us and being able to do so today. We all appreciate it. And those messages coming in of adversity,

I will come back to some incredible things that you have overcome and the ways that you have done it, we will share. Now, later today in the American capital, Washington, D.C., Joe Biden will assume the U.S. presidency in a ceremony on the Capitol grounds. The inaugural parade is scheduled for soon after, though its surrounding areas remain on high alert as the FBI confirmed there are still threats of attacks against federal institutions across the country. Some 25,000 troops will guard the inauguration ceremony

after a deadly riot at the Capitol earlier this month. President Trump has confirmed he won't be attending the inauguration. That would make him the first president in more than 150 years and just the fourth in American history to miss the event. But in a farewell address last night, he called on Americans to pray for the incoming administration, though he did not mention his successor by name. What has the Trump presidency meant to and for women across America? What is his legacy? America seems more divided than ever since the country's

election. Can the incoming Joe Biden pull this nation, battered by the pandemic and civil unrest, back together again? To explore this, we're speaking to two women from different sides of that political divide. Joan Walsh is the national affairs correspondent for The Nation and a CNN political contributor. She is the author of What's the Matter with White People? Finding Our Way in the Next America. She talked to me from California and I put it to her

that more than 70 million Americans still voted for President Trump. Many of those were women. How does she explain that? I know that that is true. And I think that, you know, we've had a rebellion against women's rights for the last 40 or 50 years in this country, as well as against black people, mainly civil rights. And I think that the women who joined it felt like they were offered more protection under the old rules that men were going to provide for them. They were going to provide for their children and their homes.

And I think that there's some element of that that is still going on. And we have to figure out what drew them. But I think some of it is this promise that patriarchy protects you. And you gamble in this case that this this leader is going to protect that way of life. What do you think Trump's legacy is to women? Well, it's a horrible legacy. I mean, from the moment he was elected, he was accused by two dozen or more women of sexual harassment or assault. He confessed it on

tape, saying he could grab women by the you know what, whenever he wanted, because he was a star. And that really created a kind of trauma for a lot of American women. And then when he got in office, I mean, let's remember, he didn't get a lot accomplished in terms of legislation, but someone in his office, and it wasn't him because I don't think he has either the smarts or the wherewithal to do it, examined all the regulations and the codes and figured out how to restrict abortion through the Affordable Care Act and other regulations. They restricted birth control access through the Affordable Care Act. One of the first things President Obama did was sign the Lilly Ledbetter Equal Pay Act. And one of the first things Trump did was not revoke it, but make sure that you couldn't collect the data

that led to enforcement. And that was a recurrent theme. And I do want to add, I was not someone who supported Joe Biden in the beginning of the primaries. I voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016, and I truly wanted a woman to be elected. Do you think your country's still not ready for that? I worry that our country is not ready for that. And I worry and I agonize over how much we needed Joe Biden to be the great white father to come back and save us.

But because he didn't have that amazing, stunning victory that people were hoping, that landslide, it has been said he's going to probably be not good enough for the left. And there is a concern he's just going to be a bit of a caretaker. So on that point, do you think women's rights, do you think he can reverse what Trump did? Has he got the power to do that? He has a lot of power. Trump used executive action more, even more than Obama did. And Biden was pledging to use it even more and to rescind what he can. And what shocks me, Emma, as someone who's followed him for most of his career, because we're both Irish Catholic working class people, and he was

a semi-liberal who was anti-abortion, anti-choice. And he has come around because he has had to. And one of his first policy promises is to rescind everything he can do to restore abortion rights, reproductive rights to where they were. And that, to me, is a resounding victory for women. Just finally, if I can, do you think Biden can unite America? Because that's the biggest question here around the concerns of more than 70 million having voted for Donald Trump. I don't think he can. And I'm very sorry to say that. I think he can peel off enough voters, and perhaps enough Republicans, but I'm not sure about that, to support some of his policies. But Donald Trump is not the cause of our fracture. He is a symptom. He is a result of our fracture.

And our fracture in this country happened after we passed a lot of civil rights legislation in the 1960s and began at the end of the 60s and continued until today, honestly. And I don't think Joe Biden in one or two terms can solve that. I think it's going to be the job of the next 20 years. Joan Walsh there. Let's speak to Sarah Elliott, Chair of Republicans Overseas UK. She's here in London. Thank you for joining us, Sarah. Can I start by asking, how are you feeling, wounds of the past couple of weeks. But also I'm a bit sad as well because the Republicans lost the majority of the U.S. Senate. And so we cannot be a bulwark against some very liberal policies that might come down the pike. What do you think the legacy has been for women under President Trump? We heard Joan's take on it. Yeah, I think it's been quite historic, actually, and surprise, surprise, the opposite of what Joan says.

He had over 300 political appointees, female political appointees in his administration. He had the first woman CIA director. His own campaign manager in 2016 was a woman and she's the first woman to be a presidential campaign manager and win. Two UN ambassadors have both been women. The Department of Transportation, Homeland Security, Department of Education, all women. And regular women's lives rather than those who get top powerful positions? I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. Regular women's lives, the legacy for them rather than those at the top of the tree? Yes. Well, yes. For regular women, ordinary women.

He created seven million new jobs in this country in the last four years, the majority of which went to women. And also we have more women on the Republican ticket in Congress now than there's ever been before. So I don't see how he's held back on the pro-life front. You know, the country is very divided over abortion rights, but many women feel that, you know, life begins in the womb. And so the life of women begin in the womb. And he's been the most pro-life president in our American history so for many women they support him there um you know I just don't I also two of the front runners um for possibly 2024 are women uh governor South Dakota governor Kristi Noem and former South

Carolina governor Nikki Haley. Joe Biden will seek to turn back some of those areas that you're talking about, not least what happened with abortion rights specifically in states like Alabama and across the US. Do you think women's lives will get better under Joe Biden or worse? Well, I mean, I think women are progressing overall in society very well. We are taking on more CEO positions at Fortune 100 companies. Also, you know, his VP is a woman. So I think we will progress on the issue of abortion rights. I mean, that will be a constant division in this country because there's two very different viewpoints on it. But I think that will play out in the courts. And I think that will play out at the state level. I don't think it will involve Joe Biden. And that's an important point to make. When you're looking back at the legacy of Trump

and the way he has spoken about women, so now not what he has done in terms of those positions you've outlined. But of course, the most famous quote that came to light before he became president was about grabbing women by their genitals. How did you feel about that, the personal views of the man? Well, to be honest with you, at that point in the campaign, which was a month before the election, I wasn't really surprised to hear that. That's the kind of persona I had seen of this macho man. So, you know, and I didn't vote for him in 2016. I ended up voting for him in 2020 because of his achievements of what he had done for the American people. But at the time, I was not supportive and I wasn't surprised. I also didn't vote for Hillary either.

I left it blank in 2016. And it was difficult for me to do as a lifelong Republican. But, you know, I just think I also have to point out, you know, there has been the accusation of Tara Reid to Joe Biden, and we're supposed to believe all women. Why wasn't Tara Reid believed? And I need to say at that point, you know, Joe Biden's not here to answer and has refuted all of those claims, and there's a lot more that can be read

and said about that sarah will hopefully talk again about the future of the republican party and where that's going to go after this because of course that's uh it's got a trump shaped hole in it so to speak sarah elliott thank you very much for your time ahead of the inauguration later today chair of republicans overseas uk on her take on all of this so many of you still getting in touch about our interview with Clemency Burton-Hill, her first time that she's been able to do a broadcast interview since starting to relearn to talk.

Listening to wonderful Clemmie speaking right now, it's bringing back so many memories. I suffered two bleeds in my frontal lobe, aged 27 back in 2007 due to an AVM, the same as Clemmie. I had a craniotomy at King's, a huge operation. I continued to work in publishing before doing an MA in fine art. I'm married with two little girls now, happily working as a fine

artist. And every day I'm grateful. Listening to Clemmie is bringing a tear to my eye. I have to say that seems to be a common theme. Keep your messages coming in. But we did say we'd tell you how you could help the V&A because today the V&A Museum announces the Africa Fashion Exhibition, which will take place in June next year. But the museum can't do it alone. The curators are asking for your help. The show will trace the history, diversity and vibrancy of modern African fashion

from the liberation and independence years of the mid-20th century to the present day. Visitors will be able to view over 250 objects and you can contribute from today. The V&A are asking you to submit your treasured items of clothing, photography, magazines, anything that you could be deemed relevant to the exhibition that should fit the bill.

To tell us more about this and Africa fashion and the booming African fashion scene, we're joined by curator of African and African diaspora fashion, Dr. Christine Cieszynska, and South African fashion designer Cindy Sukumalo, who joins us from Cape Town. Christine, if I come to you first, what was the inspiration for this exhibition? Good morning, thanks so much. Well, the inspiration for the exhibition absolutely came from what we see as a vibrant, innovative, globally impactful scene today. And that really set our

hearts beating a little faster, certainly it did mine. And I wanted to dive a little deeper and look at the history. Where does this begin? And for me, it's with the independence and liberation years and that vanguard. I call them the big four, the vanguard of designers like Sade Thomas-Pharm, who's seen as Nigeria's first designer, fashion designer. So the inspiration comes from what we see, what we hear from conversations with designers like Sade Thomas-Pharm, the historical designers, but also contemporary designers like Sindiso. So it's very much rooted in this idea of wanting to foreground African voices, African perspectives, African culture and history. Let's bring Sindiso into this. Each of your collections, welcome, is inspired by a black female historical figure. The latest was based on Harriet Tubman. Tell us about that and why it's important to you. Well, essentially for me, I feel like it's really

important to speak about these women, especially in this time, because I don't want them to turn into myths or mythical figures. I think, you know, it's extraordinary the idea of a black woman who was five foot two, who was very petite, who saved 70 slaves in her lifetime, you know, and lived until she was 91. It sounds just, you know, like unreal. And I just think for me, it's really important to really tell these stories and make them, like put them onto like the fashion, like put them onto proper, like people can actually access them. And also, I think in a sense, it's like also paying tribute to women, because I think there's

been so much violence towards black women and black people. And I just think it's really just a way of actually paying tribute to that pain, you know, the pain of slavery, the pain of apartheid and bringing those stories out into like a contemporary setting. And educating people, I suppose, as well. And educating people, essentially. They don't know. I mean, what would you say are the most exciting trends, for instance, in the South African fashion scene at the moment? You have to paint a picture for us on radio of kind of what you're seeing. I mean, I think definitely at the moment,

it's difficult to see people because everyone's indoors. But no, I think at the moment, like, there's definitely, like, a very strong sense of heritage and people putting their identities first within their labels so whether you know whether your kosa zulu or whatever whatever your gender identity is you know people are very much like putting their identities into their clothing um and obviously there's a big like street culture but also like buying local designers has become a real trend at the moment so people are much more supportive of locally made clothing local designers and um yeah but i think that that's kind of the scene at the

moment although we don't really see anyone yeah the scene is limited the world over but thanks for doing your best there. Let me come back to you, Christine, from the V&A. You mentioned there Sade Thomas Farm, Nigeria's first designer. Could you describe a bit of her work for people who may not be familiar? Well, she's famous for looking back at traditional crafts, traditional ways of dressing, but repurposing them for this 1960s moment. So she was working in the 1960s. So if you think of that era in terms of women, this is a moment of women's empowerment, women's independence, as well as the independence of the African nations. And two of the things that she's most known for, which to our eyes and our ears might seem really, really simple, but at the

time, absolutely revolutionary. So for example, she put a zipper in the Nigerian Iro, which is a kind of a wrap skirt is the way that I describe it. And when we spoke to her, she said, well, it's just not using women's time appropriately. If you've got to, you're in an office and you've got to keep retying your Iro. So she put a zipper in the Iro and made it more wearable, more useful to women on the go. And similarly, the other thing she did, and it's just fantastic, simple ideas. The other thing she did was to create a pre-tied gele. So the gele is a Nigerian head wrap. And so I love this idea of in the 60s, rather like here in the UK, women on the go, jumping

on and off buses, working in offices for the first time, having these independent lives. You don't want to be fixing your guillet. You don't want to be fixing your iro. And so she just thought of these really quite simple, wonderful ideas to make life easier for women on the go. And her boutique, Sade's Boutique in Lagos, was the place to go to if you're a fashionable, empowered woman in the 60s. Oh, sounds wonderful. A woman talking our language long before we needed it. And also the idea, you know, just people who put pockets in women's clothing, also revolutionary. What do you want from our listeners today? We want people to search their attics, search their trunks, dig behind the sofa, even dig behind wherever you might find

garments by the big four particularly. So garments by Chris Seydoux for example, Kofi Ansah, Sade Thomas Farm and Al Fadi. Do you or your relatives still have garments by them? Do you have family portraits? Do you have home movies of you and your family during the 1950s to the 2000s that showcase these fashions of the day, these fashions that demonstrated the empowerment of men and women. But it was a real moment of agency. Indeed. And if you do, go to the V&A social media channels and see how to contribute. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us and taking us into that world and painting such a vivid picture. That's today's episode of Woman's Hour and what a powerful one it was. Thank you so much

for your messages of how you've got through difficult times and for all of your good wishes to Clemmie which we've passed along. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.