Woman's Hour - Climate Change Policy, Girlhood, Feminisation of the workplace

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

The BBC has revealed that the Prime Minister is considering a major shift on key climate action policies. These changes include pushing back a ban on sales of new petrol and diesel cars to 2035 and delaying the 2026 ban on off-grid oil boilers to 2035. The economist Kate Raworth joins Emma to discuss her reaction to this news. If you’re on TikTok, “girl”-based trends are everywhere you look these days. From girl dinner to girl math, lazy girl job to hot girl walk, the list goes on. Girl math is the latest trend, with a hashtag with over 360 million views. Is it about reclaiming girlhood - or is it sexist and infantilizing? Behavioural scientist and author Professor Pragya Argawal and host of the “Adulting” podcast Oenone Forbat join Emma to discussThe Met Police have announced that they aim to change the demographic of the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Unit – where both Wayne Couzens and David Carrick worked - to have 20% women in the next two years. But why should it fall to women to improve workplace behaviours? To discuss, Emma is joined by Police and Crime Commissioner Katy Bourne and workplace commentator Julia Hobsbawm.Artist and author Fleur Pierets embarked on a performance art project with her wife, Julian, in 2017, aiming to get married in all the countries where same sex marriage was legal at the time. But their dream was cut short when Julian was diagnosed with late stage brain cancer in early 2018 and died six weeks later. It’s a story Fleur has put down on paper in her book “Julian”, which has just been translated into English and released in the UK.TikTok clips uses: samcity and VIDA GLOWPresenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. A shot of anger kicks off this programme today with a top environment economist responding to the potential of the Prime Minister weakening some of the government's key green commitments. I know from you and from polls that the environment is an important issue with female voters in particular. You'll be hearing shortly from Kate Raworth, the author of the best-selling Donut Economics book. But feel free

to have your voices heard too on this issue. She'll lay out her take on it, but I'd like to hear yours. I should say we invited a member of the government onto Women's Hour this morning, but no one was available. You can text the programme 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. What is your response to this potential watering down of the Green commitments? There's talk of we cannot afford this at this time. It has to be proportionate.

The Home Secretary said to my colleagues on the Today programme that they were arbitrary targets. We'll get into all of that shortly. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or email us through our website. You can send a WhatsApp message or voice note on 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply, so do just watch that. And all terms are on our website.

Also, how do you feel about the idea of Girls' Hour? No, I'm not just casually announcing a rebrand of Women's Hour. I'm asking because some women online are loving describing themselves, often in a whimsical context, as girls when they're on various social media channels or just making videos to publish and for people to talk about. Let me know how you feel about being referred to as a girl on those same numbers. I'll also be joined today by the artist and author Fleur Perrette, who's going to talk about trying to get married in every country in the world where same-sex weddings are legal. Do you know how many

it is at at the moment? I'd be interested to hear if you do know. Of course, that's a discussion in itself. And finally, another question for you if you'll humour me. Do you think more women working in an organisation typically improves it? Let's say it has been a male dominated culture, a male dominated business or company, more women in there. Does it make it better? Is that the way forward? Or is that an outdated sexist idea? The Metropolitan Police, the leadership of that force, think that it will improve things, certainly in their area of work, but broadening it out, and we'll explore the police, and if it could, as well as broadening it out, I'd like your view. What's your view and your experience? Do more women improve companies or organisations' cultures, or have you experienced otherwise?

Let it out. I'm here to hear it. 84844, the number to text, or social media, at BBC Women's Hour. And for some of those longer stories, I know you often prefer to email, and you can do that via the Women's Hour website. But first, the BBC has revealed that Rishi Sunak is considering weakening some of the government's key green commitments in a major policy shift. It could include moving the 2030 ban on new petrol and diesel car sales to 2035, five years later, phasing out 80% of new gas boilers by 2035,

and not introducing new taxes to discourage flying, to name but a few. The Prime Minister was expected to make a speech on a new approach to net zero this week, but the BBC understands it could come as soon as today. Home Secretary Suella Braverman told my colleagues at the Today programme early this morning that the net zero target could potentially bankrupt the British people. The costs of achieving some of these arbitrary targets has to be taken into account. These goals are just that goals, not straight jackets. And we need to ensure that we do it and we work towards those goals in a sustainable way, in a mature way, in a pragmatic way. And I applaud the Prime Minister for taking difficult decisions, but which are fundamentally in the national interest,

in the interest of economic growth, and in the interest of household budgets. So what does this mean for you? I was joined just before coming on air by Kate Raworth, economist, senior associate at Oxford University's Environmental Change Institute, and author of the best-selling book, Donut Economics, which describes a system that strives to balance between essential human needs and the protection of the bestselling book Donut Economics, which describes a system that strives to balance between essential human needs and the protection of the planet.

I started by asking her what her response was to the suggestion that Rishi Sunak is considering weakening some of the government's key green commitments. It's an appalling own goal. It's just such a shockingly bad move to even be considering at this moment in time when we need to give very, very clear direction to the country we want to be and the future of health that we want for ourselves. You sound quite angry.

I'm shocked. I'm appalled. And the idea that this in some way positions the Conservative Party differently from the Labour Party in the run up to elect. Well, position yourself as retrograde and confused and shilly shallying around without any clear leadership. It's it's insane. But it's it's. Yeah, I am angry. I'm angry because it is a shocking, I haven't even got the words, Emma. I'm angry because we as the generation who have control over policy today have a huge obligation to the future, to the young generation of young adults and children in this country and to people worldwide to actually do what is obviously the right thing to do.

To be clear, we don't yet know if this is going to come to pass. This has been a leak that has made its way to my colleagues here at the BBC. Some have said this is also a way when these leaks happen of testing the response. There is still a chance then, perhaps, that this will not come to pass. So I do need to say that at this point. But even floating this has angered a lot of people who work in this space. And it's safe to say I can line that has been predicted to maybe be part of the election strategy if this does come to pass. We are not going to save the country by bankrupting the British people. What do you say to those who talk about the cost of living crisis now and the fact that some of the things, and I want to get into them with you, are not available or sustainable, to use that word differently, right now to the British people.

We are bankrupting our health. We are bankrupting the planet by destroying Earth's life support systems. And if this government wants to talk about the economy, we need an economy in this country that actually wants to invest in future industries. And this message would send the exact opposite signal to all the kinds of companies that we want to see invest in the UK, bringing green jobs, clean technologies, creating the future of industry here. Rishi Sunak has said the government is committing to reaching that zero still by 2050, but in a more proportionate way. Can you do it in a more proportionate way, in your view? I find this an utterly absurd use of language. This government likes to claim that they have leadership on climate change, but their own committee that they set up called the Climate Change Committee, an independent group of top advisors, have told them, have reported, they're missing almost every target. The UK has lost any

leadership it ever had. They've insulated fewer homes, cut fewer transport emissions, created fewer jobs, less solar and wind investment than should have happened. There's nothing proportionate about failing in leading in transforming the world out of fossil fuels towards clean energy. Look, people who don't know you, I was going to say, people who don't know you or your work, I just wanted to ask at this point, who might be thinking you're not a Conservative voter. Is this in any way about party politics for you? This is not about party politics for me. The Labour Party and the Conservative Party and all other parties in the UK need to recognise that to protect life on this planet, we need to get out of fossil fuels and invest in the energy that

actually will fuel our future, that will create jobs here, that will give us clean air to breathe and a stable climate. That comes before any left-right politics for me. That is the future and every party should be oriented towards that. So we've moved, though, in the last few years, certainly, to a place, not for everyone, but I meant, certainly on the BBC I can say this, where it's not a debate if this is urgent or not. You may say we've not got to that place,

but that's certainly the direction of travel. It's not a debate whether you accept that this is a huge issue, what's going on with the environment. How we get there is the debate now. And what I wanted to ask you on that is for those who are listening, who perhaps are thinking they need to keep their petrol car, if we could bring it to something that is in people's households, is in people's lives right now, rather than our very important role as a leading economy and how we project ourselves and commitments we make on the global stage to bring it down to individuals. What would you say to those individuals who are worried about that? Let's be really clear about the UK's plans on phasing out fossil fuel cars.

Some countries have a ban on the use of those cars at all. So in Amsterdam, in Oslo, in Norway, they are going to end the use of fossil fuel cars and they will have clean air. The UK has decided to go a different route anyway and say we will ban the sale of new fossil fuel cars. So that's not saying if you own a fossil fuel car, you can't drive it anymore. It means from 2030, you won't be able to buy a new fossil fuel car. Now what this possibility that Sumac is considering would be to say, oh, let's kick the cab further down the road. Let's push back that

date let's keep selling fossil fuel cars not just till 2030 let's keep selling fossil fuel cars till 2035 here's the impact that this will have in our lives anybody walking on the streets of the uk kids going to school families out people going, people walking to work or having a nice time, we will be breathing in the petrol fumes for another five years. So anyone with a toddler at home or a baby in your belly, your child, if this policy is delayed, your child will spend probably their entire childhood breathing in the fumes of fossil fuels. I say that as a parent with 15-year-old kids, realising that my kids have grown up just walking to school, breathing in the fumes of fossil fuels. I say that as a parent with 15-year-old kids, realizing that my kids have grown up just walking to school breathing in fossil fuel fumes. We will then find ourselves visiting other cities in Europe, like Amsterdam, like Oslo in 2030, and we'll say, why does the air seem so clean here? And then we'll come back to Britain and remember that heavy acid in the back of your

throat and in your lungs. Oh, yes. Back in 2023, a government made a decision that the rest of Europe could dump its unwanted fossil fuel cars on us and keep selling them here. That's how it'll look. And I don't want another generation of kids to be raised on fossil fuel fumes when they walk to school. That's the first direct impact on our health and our lungs. And it'll cost the health service and it'll cost each one of us in our lives. Secondly, just let's step back from the UK. The UK has really high rates of fossil fuel emissions and carbon emissions compared to the rest of the world compared to all the lower income countries. Even if you're not buying a new car is your point. Just now, just right already, we are one of the countries with a really high rate of carbon emissions per person.

And no one can have missed in the news the devastation of fires in Hawaii, the floods in Libya, the devastation of floods across Europe and around the world, the wildfires. This is climate change in action. And we know unequivocally it is caused by carbon emissions. So every time we delay transforming, we are choosing to keep contributing to this crisis that is becoming more and more tangible in our lives here. But it's extremely tangible and devastating for people around the world. So that's a huge global responsibility to act. But thirdly, as we raise our kids and as we all think about our futures, we want an economy in this country that actually doesn't keep harking back to the

industries of the past and drilling for the last drops of oil and digging for the last bit of coal and spewing fossil fuels into our lungs because that seemed to be good for business. We want a country where we have companies bringing in clean energy, new technologies. This needs to be a country where companies actually want to invest. And, you know, companies have choices. They need a message from government that is a long, loud legal message. We'll give you a long warning. In 2030, we'll stop selling fossil fuel cars.

So any company that wants to sell clean energy transport would want to invest here. If the government now changes its mind, completely underlines the project, the clarity of investment. I was going to say... Just say, let's go somewhere else. Just while we're talking, the carmaker Ford has warned the Prime Minister that pushing back a ban on sales of new petrol and diesel cars to 2035 would undermine business certainty.

That's not even about new businesses, but it's from a heritage brand, as it were, of cars to say that. We are also potentially going to expect the weakening of plans to phase out gas boilers could be among announcements that could come as soon as today. So that's another element in terms of the politics and the schedule of it. I can tell you what to say on that. Yes, go on. Yes, on that one. So cost of living crisis, one of the biggest drivers of the cost of living crisis over the last year was the massive rise in the cost of gas. Well, if we keep installing gas boilers in new homes, it means you're hooking households onto the international price of gas, which the UK has no control over because it's an international market. It's driven by international wars and geopolitics. I would like to be able to heat my

home using an energy source that isn't driven by international geopolitical wars and the price of gas. And the way to do that is not to install gas boilers. It's to put in air source heat pumps, which just mean you're using electricity generated by the air around your house. So if we really care about the cost of living, let's free ourselves up from being hit into crises by international gas politics. There's much to sort of say on that point, and I suppose around cars, but if I could just bring you to something else,

because I'm sure many of our listeners will also be in touch with their views on this, as this opens up for some a debate about what is the best way forward. But they want to hear what you have to say, having looked at this and the economic side of it. I'm always very struck, and this has been a theme on this programme before, we've seen that amongst the issues that women care about in the run up to elections, but also generally, the environment is key amongst what is on a list of, if you like, what they're looking for, what they care about.

That's not just because women are mothers and linked to children, as you've mentioned in this conversation. There's a whole host of perhaps other reasons. I wondered what your view is on that and how perhaps this news may be received by some of these key women you know in this space today? I don't know why it is that women particularly care about this. I can speculate. I think there is something to do with being aware of the importance of raising another generation, aware that the fundamental metric and the fundamental well-being of life is health.

We focus on the health of our kids, the health of the air that we breathe and going into our lungs. And if we can focus on the health of our own bodies, then we must also understand our bodies depend upon the health of the living planet. It's all connected. It's life. And if women are more attuned to that, maybe that's why their message is coming clear that we must take a long term view of protecting life on this planet. And this kind of decision would be an absolute backward move. So if Rishi Sunak is considering changing these policies, Rishi, consider again and think about the future of children, of this country, of the planet, of the economy. It's all aligned with getting off fossil fuels. The economist Kate Raworth there. We did contact Number 10 for a response. We invited a member of

the government onto the programme today. No one was available. Instead, we were referred to the Prime Minister's statement, which was issued last night. Rishi Sunak said, I am proud that Britain is leading the world on climate change. We are committed to net zero by 2050 and the agreements we have made internationally. But doing so in a better,

more proportionate way. Our politics must again put the long-term interests of our country before the short-term political needs of the moment. No leak, talking about this information

coming to light to the BBC, will stop me beginning the process of telling the country how and why we need to change. As a first step, I'll be giving a speech this week to set out an important long-term decision we need to make so our country becomes the place I know we all want for it to be for our children. Well, that speech that he's talking about, or certainly elements of that, it is potentially expected as soon as today. So there you go in terms of the latest position from the Prime Minister. Now, you've been getting in touch, I have to say. This seems to have sparked something, and I know you might about that conversation, and I should say if you want to. If you're angry, if you're relieved, however you feel about the potential weakening of those Green commitments,

please do get in touch. But a lot of you have been taking the opportunity to get in touch about the word girl i did say if it went to girls hour instead of women's hour how would you feel or far worse let me put this out no chance don't worry ladies hour but that's not what we're talking about if you are on tiktok or other media sites, whimsical girl-based trends are rather ubiquitous at the moment. From girl dinner to girl math, lazy girl job to hot girl walks. That's just a walk from all I can gather. Hot girl summer and cousin sad girl autumn. It goes on and on.

Have a listen to this. Girl dinner is the amalgamation of random foods from your pantry or fridge that have no business being on the same plate together and likely don't involve any cooking. Think 17 cubes of cheese, a cucumber and a breadstick. Come with me on a hot girl walk from Camden all the way to Stratford. I have a lazy girl job. That's why I'm on my way to Target at 11am on a Monday morning. If I buy a top, it's $50. Return it. I make $50. Yeah. Girl math. Girl math. Girl math. Quite a lot of American voices in there. We'll see how you're faring with this.

Girl math is one of the latest iterations of this, attaching, for instance, to a hashtag garnering over 360 million views. It's all about people explaining their rules for spending money, that one, most of them being deliberately silly. And I do want to stress the majority of those, certainly that we can see using this trend, are 18 and are in fact women. So what is going on? The behavioural scientist and author we've had on the programme before, welcome back to Professor Pragya Agarwal. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. And we've got the host of the Adulting podcast,

Unoni Forbat here. Hello. Hello. Let me read you just a couple of messages that are coming in about the response to girls versus women or ladies or anything else. Hello, I'm 66 and worked in a hospital for 22 years. We all called each other girls. It was about being part of a team. Now retired, I still like to be called a girl, says Helen, who's listening in Devon. Good morning. Hello, Emma.

I'm quite happy being called a girl and often use terms girls' night out or girlies. What I don't like is the title Miss. I'm engaged happy being called a girl and often use terms girls night out or girlies. What I don't like is the title miss. I'm engaged but not married and it annoys me that people know a woman's marital status when a man is always a mister. But another one. Being called girl? Absolutely not. Do we ever call men boys in any context?

Being called a girl at the age of 33 makes me feel diminished and not respected as the adult woman I am. And another one here. Hello, Women's Hour. Great to hear Emma back. Thank you. I hate the use of the word girls for grown women. It infantilises us and maintains an inferior relationship with men, says Viv. Anoni, let me come to you.

This is the trend that we're seeing. Talk us through the trend. So the idea, idea I guess is just labeling very inane things as girly or girl dinner and I actually think it's kind of a retaliation to the stereotypes especially girl dinner it's quite funny it's sort of like we're brought up to believe that women are going to be incredible domestic goddesses who whip up like shepherd's pies and lasagnas whereas actually most women when they're on their own all of me and my girlfriends talk about this you just shove loads of stuff on a plate and it's actually a massive relief to think, oh, I actually have to get out loads of pots and pans and I can just use my time how I want and make something easy.

And so I think that there's it's very tongue in cheek. And I also think like one of the people writing in said, oh, I'd hate to be called a girl. It's not calling other people a girl. It's being part of this silly sort of like buy-in if you want to and join again like the other person said part of a team so calling yourself a girl and and as a girl calling other women girls so I think the girl it's kind of an idea you don't have to be a woman you could be a man you could be anyone it's just buying into this concept of sort of being less stressed about the world I think women are so hyper vigilant it does seem to be girls

doing this or am I wrong the other part of it is kind of the girl. I think women are so hypervigilant. It does seem to be girls doing this, or am I wrong? The other part of it is kind of the girlies, the gays and the theys. So people of marginalised genders and identities as buying into this thing of when you're out in the world as a woman, you do tend to have your awareness about you and you have to feel very vigilant. You're constantly feeling like you're being looked at or could be attacked at any moment.

And I think part of this girlhood idea or kind of succumbing to this infantilising term is letting yourself have a bit of freedom to play and not be so hypervigilant about the world, I would say. That could be a very generous read, according to some. Let's see what Pragya has to say. It is key to say with this, a lot of it's quite whimsical, Pragya. What do you think? Yeah, I think so. I think it depends on the context entirely, a lot of it's quite whimsical, Pragya. What do you think? Yeah, I think so. I think it depends on the context entirely, who's using it and when they're using it and why they're using it.

And I think, yes, obviously there is a certain sort of reclaiming of the label and a struggle to be seen and to define ourselves as the way we are as women. And obviously, there is a notion of womanhood about being adults and about, as Gloria Steinem said, there's a loss of power as we grow older. So maybe there is a sense of that if we attach ourselves to the label girls, we are holding on to our power. But I suppose what my concern is how infantilizing this term is. And lots of experiments have shown that when people use girl in a context,

they have certain stereotypes in mind because language evokes certain stereotypes and our culture is shaped by it. So girl is associated with young and mature and naive and submissive and pliable, while woman is an adult and is more empowering term. So I suppose we have to look at the societal norms and stereotypes about why we assume that being a woman is conforming to the societal norms and expectations that we need to

be domestic goddesses or we need to whip up fancy meals. That's definitely not coming up on a video about going for a hot girl walk, I can tell you. Maybe it's the subtext, maybe it's the caption that should be. But Pragya, if somebody said to you, hey girl, one of my friends always says that to me. I mean, I've just come off maternity leave with her and whenever we met in the park, she'd be like, hey girl, did you sleep? What's up? What would you do to that? how do you feel about that no I think it's perfectly fine when women call each other girls and a lot of women do that in ironically or whimsically or as a fun thing um it's when I'm it's the way that sometimes it's used as just a girl or um if it's being used by a man in a way, then perhaps I would often feel very offended by it because that's diminishing my power.

That's assuming that a girl is inferior to men in some ways. And it's enabling and maintaining those hierarchies or petrarchies that exist in our society. On that, let me come back to you, Inoni, because we've got a message here, an anonymous one saying, and we did play a bit of music at the beginning of the program as part of that who runs the world girls by Beyonce of course this message says I hate being referred to as a girl it riles me when athletes are referred to as girls I think Beyonce is wrong I think that everyone is entitled to it the thing is with this movement specifically and I agree with everything that Prague has said, it's about sort of entering into this domain, this ideology, it's sort of a concept, it's not, you are the girl, you're playing into these tropes. And I would hate it again, the same

if a man calls me a girl, I will correct them and say no, I'm a woman. But I also find it very funny just to be a bit flippant and use terminology like going on a hot girl walk it's just a bit of sorry is it because the walk is hot I mean genuinely what is a hot girl walk because I'm very hot a lot of the time right now um in in natural temperatures it's just a silly thing that came from hot girl summer which is a song that everyone loved and I think it's also about getting like people getting out to exercise it's just like go on your silly hot girl walk there's all these sort of actually lots of colloquialisms that have come up online there's a lot of women just very sweaty and really thinking i've i've qualified for this for a long

time i can see you're laughing i'm going to give you a chance to laugh for once because you you're providing us the very serious social context but have you been warm on a walk this summer yeah i'm always warm on the walk um i i don't know if a hot girl walk really tempts me in any way or the other, but there are some harmful connotations to it as well, like girl math. It really, really angers me when I see the term girl math. Yeah, go on. Because there is so much resistance and also pushback on women and girls entering maths and science.

There's this misconception and myth that girls are not as good at maths and young girls absorb this message from a very young age. And so we see that there are not as many women entering STEM, especially maths domain. And so I feel like it's kind of playing into those stereotypes and enabling and enforcing those stereotypes that girls are just bad or women are bad at maths

and numbers and women can't they make bad financial decisions which is not really what a message we need to give our young women. Anoni? I think the thing with girl math is it's like we're in on the joke a lot of the women using this terminology are really intellectual might be really good at maths girl math isn't. Why don't they show that as well? Because it's not literally about the maths it's about the way that you're making excuses for silly behaviour. The whole point is we're kind of undermining these silly things that we do and we're wrapping them up in a bow and we're joking about them.

It's almost like pushing back. It's like, if you think we're dumb, here's all the silly things we've done today. While we sweat. But whilst we sweat on our walk. Sorry, I'm going to get those messages, aren't I? Horses perspire, women... Do we glow? I can't remember. I was told that awful right. Oh, really?

There you go. That's something for the girlfriend. none of that's actually true but carry on so I just think that there I understand where it can get complicated and where it might create more of this idea that you know girlishness is something that is a negative thing I actually think that the people using the terminology it's very much tongue-in-cheek and everyone's kind of in on the joke and a lot of the women talking about it are women in their like late 20s 30s 40s 50s however old also usually very intellectual people that have like lots of feminist interests I think there's a freedom in engaging in something which feels so inane especially if you are someone that engages a lot in news and culture and politics and feminism it's quite fun just to act a bit silly well just on the boys point girls are surely a

fun and friendly term, reads this message from one of our listeners. After all, my friends and I refer to our 60 plus husbands as the boys. So, you know, that's also happening at times, not necessarily as a new trend. Get the boys round, you know, get together, all of that. And, you know, that is common parlance for some. Call me girl anytime.

I'm 80 and two months old, says Gwenda. Hello. I play tennis, though, says this, and I cannot bear that women are called ladies while men are called men. Ladies is a particular... We're not going to do a hot lady walk, are we? Oh, ladies are the worst. No.

Lady mass? All right, we're not starting anything here. There you go. Some views on that. Professor Praguar Agarwal, lovely to talk to you. It was good to have you on the programme. Same to you. And only four back.

Hope you'll come back. Host of the Adulting podcast and still the messages roll in on this front do keep them coming in on what you make of being called a girl versus a woman

84844 is the number you need to text or email us or get in touch on social media at the age of 50 another one here feels like every walk

is a hot girl walk but perhaps not for the right reasons I was expecting that message about temperatures from some of you and I'm feeling it too one here feels like every walk is a hot girl walk but perhaps not for the right reasons i was expecting that message about temperatures uh for from some of you and i'm feeling it too right now i cannot get this right this weather this september so far uh you've also been getting in touch this morning in answer to my question around do women make organizations better let's get into that because what is the proof is it a lazy sexist assumption or something

to live by? The leadership of the Metropolitan Police is certainly placing its bets on the premise that more women means a better culture. It's also more diversity across other lines too. The force has announced that as part of the reform of the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Unit, it's aiming to have 20% women in that department over the next two years. That department, of course, is where officers Wayne Cousins and David Carrick both worked. I want to remind you of that. Cousins was earlier this year found guilty of the kidnapping, rape and murder of Sarah Everard. Carrick also this year pleaded guilty to 85 serious offences, including rapes, sexual assaults, false imprisonment and coercive and controlling behaviour. This comes as the Met has revealed that more than a thousand of its officers

are currently suspended or on restricted duties, with some facing criminal charges or gross misconduct hearings. Details have also emerged of an officer who allegedly tasered a 10-year-old girl. He's facing a hearing later this year. Is hiring more women the solution? To look at the police, we've got the Police and Crime Commissioner for Sussex, Katie Bourne, and to think perhaps more broadly across all organisations, the Bloomberg commentator and host of the podcast, The Nowhere Office,

Julia Hobsbawm, who's just walked into the studio. Good morning to both of you. Just because this story starts with the police, let's start with you, Katie Bourne. 20% women in this particular department. Do you think it will make a difference? Morning, Emma. Yes, I do, genuinely. And it's got to be an improvement on what's gone before.

And certainly from my own experience in Sussex, we now have a female chief constable. And in fact, a couple of years ago, the whole senior top team were all women. I've definitely seen changes and for the better as well. But we do have women who don't always, Julia, make good changes across the board. And I have plenty of examples. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, structurally, it's the case that men in positions of seniority vastly outnumber women.

For example, the ONS data shows that 63% of men are in positions of seniority compared to 36% of women. Quite a lot of psychological research and neuroscience shows that there are tendencies and traits that make women quote-unquote better in the workplace for empathy and so on. There's quite a lot of studies there. But power can corrupt and corrupt absolutely. And it can corrupt women as well as men. What I would say is that I'm optimistic that there is a great rebalancing happening in the workplace generally.

That women were at the forefront of calling for not only greater flexibility, but greater equality. And there's just heaps of data that shows that true diversity, differences of opinion, counterbalancing is better for the workplace, and that at the moment, it's still very imbalanced. So it's not necessarily women, it's about having a mix of people within an organisation or it is women? I think it is women with the caveat, and you've said it yourself, that just because you're a woman doesn't mean you're great. I mean, I was very struck yesterday by your interview with Susan Gilbey about the Lucy Letby case. Lucy Letby herself is a woman. She behaved monstrously.

And in fact, as I understand it, it was a woman in a position of seniority as the head of nursing care who preceded your guest yesterday. So being a woman inherently doesn't make you better if you're going into a system and following a rigid, bad workplace, what interests me is the role women and men can play in making a better workplace. On that particular point, of course, there's inquiries still to come on that with more evidence around the management of that particular hospital trust.

Talking about Lucy Letby, to come back to you, Katie Bourne, there is a specific example here of the police. It is, of course, very difficult reading for, I'm sure, those connected to the police, those within the police and us being police, that more than a thousand of the Metropolitan Police officers are currently suspended or on restricted duties. Tell us a bit more about why you think this aim of how to diversify who's in which bit could work. Well, listening to what Julia was saying, actually, I do agree. There's a lot of studies to show that diversity of thought is really important in any team. But what's interesting with policing and something that I've experienced as nearly 11 years in this job now, is that it's a structure,

a hierarchical command structure. And it does enable these sort of fiefdoms to flourish. Whether it's if you take it at the local level, for example, you know, in Sussex, we've got some police stations who are quite out on the borders and therefore feel isolated. And you get this sort of bunker mentality that can happen. And you need that diversity of thought within that structure to challenge. And it is really difficult for leaders, be they men or women, to change that structure from the top unless you get that diversity at the bottom as well. So certainly it's been just over three years now since I've had a female chief constable in Sussex. And we're now, this week's new intake of new recruits, more than 50% are women. Now we're seeing an increasing number of women joining, which is

really to be welcomed. But also we're trying to obviously make that more diverse and further extend into BAME communities as well. Julie, if I can, just while there was a point before it goes too far by, what did you want to say, Julie? Well, I just wanted to say that the smart money in organisational behaviour now is on teams and actually not on leadership with a capital L. And that's what interests me is that if women are forced into an out of date system of leadership as some kind of magic wand, that's not as interesting or as productive as saying, how do you have a group that works together to an outcome? That said, again, in a business context where I come from a business background,

the data does show that there are productivity gains and profit gains by having more women involved in the workplace at a senior level. How do you feel, Julie, looking across this, because you've covered this sort of space for a long time now, about the idea, and I heard the phrase yesterday, and I wonder what your physical reaction was to it, your mental reaction to it. It was a particular correspondent talking about the police's desire to feminise the workplace. Well, I was just talking in the green room to the other guests. I mean, language is all. Do you do a hot girl walk occasionally? I think I probably feel like a lazy girl some of the time. I mean, look, language gets very outdated very quickly. I'm not as interested in the labelling as I am in the behaviour and the reality and the structural underpinning.

The science shows that if you bring a sex brain of a woman as born into the equation with a lot of men better things are likely to happen but if that woman comes in and exerts power in a traditionally male way you're not going to get good outcomes it's really all about the behavior and not so much about the language and certainly not about a tick box exercise. What about the military? What do you mean, what about the military? So that has to remain, as many would argue, a hierarchical structure. We've covered the military and some of the very serious allegations and issues, for instance, in the Royal Navy.

And there was a lot made of the fact that the idea of a traditional male leadership now being denounced or not being respected as the way forward, however you want to call it. That's the sort of thing that in certain instances, certain fields of work can't change very hierarchical structures for command and ordering, like the military. Well, there's nothing wrong with structure and hierarchy, but there's everything wrong with not listening, not showing empathy, and actually a bullying toxic culture. I've written quite a lot about the fact that burnout is not only back in a big way, but it never went away. And a key driver of it is the toxic

workplace. I do note, by the way, Emma, that the latest incarnation of the office being made in Australia is going to star for the first time a woman. Oh, right. There you go. Did not know that. I mean, I'm just asking as well, though, because there will be others listening who think you've talked about science, you've talked about research. I'll bring you back in a moment, Katie. But why is it that women are associated with empathy? Why is it that because some some may bulk at that, why do we have to be seen in that caring way? And why is that necessarily a good thing for us

in the workplace as it is at the moment? Well, again, certainly I think you're right. All the science and research in the world, if it doesn't apply to a real world lived experience, isn't as valid. But the science and the research does show two things. One is that a workplace that has trust and empathy and teams in it is going to do better. And secondly, the neuroscience

shows slightly controversially that literally the grey matter of women's brains is different and the cortex lights up in areas of empathy and empathy to put yourself. It's called mirror neurons. If you put yourself in somebody else's shoes, then you are listening more to them. Now, again, it almost doesn't matter whether you say it's a woman who's doing that, a person. What matters is, is it happening? Is it happening? Katie Bourne, going back to the police, and I'm just thinking of this new group of women going into this part of the police force where, you know, I've mentioned it's where the officers Wayne Cousins and David Carrick both worked at some point in their careers, Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Unit. It's all very well hearing the ideal and also some of the science about how women are and can be, but how to navigate what is still a man's

world and those structures as they are. Any advice for those women going in? I think they need that reassurance that that support network is there around them. It's much harder as a woman, I think, to call out bad behaviour if you are a single woman in an environment that is all male. But it is easier when you have others around you. What if the bad behaviour, not just in the police, but is by women? If the bad behaviour is by women, it's knowing you've got that support network. So because your support network could be men as well, taking it away from the police. Absolutely. It could well be as well.

And I think it's also knowing that there are others out there that you can approach. But we definitely need a better balance in those two areas in the Met. But to Julia's point, it's all very well bringing people in, but it's got to actually change and they've got to be in an environment where change can happen. And the reason this is so crucial with the police, because of the specific needs of women and girls and the need for safety and the need to be able to trust our police forces in this country,

how confident can women be? Well, I mean, if they don't try, then I think they're not going to move forwards at all. So, you know, let's not let's not shoot them for trying. But I certainly know from experience in Sussex that it's made a real difference having more women there. It just brings in a different way of of doing things. It brings in that diversity of thought as well. And what we are really keen to do now, the Chief Constable and I, is see those new recruits coming through into more senior roles as well. So huge amount of work.

At the end of the day, you want to be the change you want to see, don't you? Katie Bourne, the Police and Crime Commissioner for Sussex. Thank you. Just a couple of messages, Julia. I'll let you have a final thought on but very briefly if you can There's a message here from Samantha Hi Emma, I think women in the workplace is great

I work in finance, I'm currently on maternity leave and most managers and long service employees are women I think this creates a more caring workplace everyone looks after each other, shares the workloads where necessary, I think there's more awareness of staff wellbeing which is the backbone to everything.

And Jill says, as one of the first Church of England women priests ordained in 1994, I believe that men and women working together give the very best sort of communities. My ministry was definitely nourished by working with teams of men and women priests. Which goes to your point about teams, Julia. It goes to my point about teams and it goes to the point about behaviour and actually what we want, whether you call it a more feminised workplace or not, is you want a better functioning workplace. So many women in particular are leaving the workplace

and that's what we want is we want an improvement and we want to stress test where that improvement comes from and where it doesn't. Julie Harbsbourne, the host of the podcast, The Nowhere Office. Thank you very much to you. Your messages will still keep coming in, I'm sure, on this. There's one here just in. I'm 65, now retired after 40 years of working in IT. I'm absolutely certain, this is from Andrew, that women in the workplace make things better.

If I was to rank all of the direct line managers I had over the years, the top five were women. Andrew, thank you for that message. A question, another one. You know I like them. How many countries do you think same-sex marriage is legal in at the moment? My next guest, the artist and author Fleur Peretz, knows that number all too well, especially because she made a decision six years ago to highlight it in a very personal way, My next guest, the artist and author Fleur Peretz, knows that number all too well, especially because she made a decision six years ago to highlight it in a very personal way with her wife, Julian.

It was a journey and a mission that cost them their life savings. It was also an adventure, but it was cut tragically short. The details of which are in a book called Julian, which has been newly translated into English and released in the UK. Fleur's just joined me in the studio. Good morning. Hi, good morning. Thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. Where are we? How many countries in the world? In January, there will be 35 countries where we can get married.

When we started in 2017, there were 22. So things get better. The right direction. Yes. But still, I think people may be surprised by that number. Yes, it is. People don't know. And that's kind of obvious because, yeah, of course, you know what's in your comfort zone.

But I did feel like in 2017 that we had to do something about it because I do believe that change comes with knowledge. And we wanted to do a project that highlighted those numbers and you came up with this project I believe you said it to your wife uh just before going to bed and then you woke up the next morning and she'd started planning what was the plan well um the plan was to get married in all the countries where same-sex marriage was legalized so 22 in 2017 um so not I mean i just for those who were like can you do that can you actually do that or you just you sort of stage it yes we stage it because otherwise we have to get divorced for 22 times so that takes off the romance excuse me i'm gonna get a quick

lawyer in this different country in a different language so So that was the plan. Yes, that was the plan. Obviously, we didn't have the money to take on this journey. Who does? But we figured that if we sold everything that we have, we would make it to five weddings. And after that, we hoped that there would be some bus company or airplane company who wanted to sponsor us and that we could sleep on people's couches. So we kind of took a leap of faith. We sold everything that we had and we ended up with each one suitcase. And this was from where were you living at the time? In Spain. You were living in the, yes, I'm from Belgium. Yes. We live in, we lived in the south of Spain. And the first stop on your journey was New York. New York. And it got a lot of attention, didn't it?

It was crazy. Yeah. That was also the reason why we wanted to get married in New York. Because, you know, in Belgium and Holland, people are like, oh, yeah, don't be so crazy, you know, just be normal. That's crazy enough. But we really needed to start this project off with a lot of energy. So New York is like crazy. They marry 175 people a day.

So everybody gets one minute. So we went there and we explained and we said like, yeah, but we need to document this because it's turning into a documentary and everything. And so after we talked, they said, oh, this is such an amazing project. You know, you get three minutes. Oh, wow. You really got promoted there. Because, you know, as you're saying here, the project was to highlight where it wasn't legal and how few countries in comparison to the total number it was legal in. Even if that number is going in the right direction, there's still a long way to go, something we may get a chance to return to.

But your wife started to feel a bit tired. Yes. And which was kind of normal because we were traveling for two months because we didn't have a house to go back to. We had to. Yeah. On the road. Keep moving. Yes. Keep moving. So we were both very tired. But at some point in Paris, after our wedding she felt dizzy she saw things backwards it was really strange she needed to sleep a lot so I really saw there was something wrong with her so I took her to the to the hospital and she had like multiple tumors in her in her whole body that came from her brain and since I'm I'm a really hands-on person, I was, I asked the doctor, what can I do about this? And he said like, honey, she has six more weeks

to go. So yeah, that was terrible. We were in Paris, in a hospital we had nowhere to go to. And she, yeah, everything went bad so really fast. You know, within a few days she lost control of her arms, then her legs. Then she didn't recognize me at night, only during the day. Lost her speech. And after six weeks she died. It was crazy. I'm so sorry. Oh, thank you. It was crazy. I'm so sorry.

Oh, thank you. It was terrible. Well, it is still terrible, obviously. How old was she? She was 40. Okay. Yeah. And you'd been together some time? For seven years and we worked as an artist couple for seven years. So we were like 24-7. All the time. All the time

working together. We had an online magazine about queer issues and queer artists. So we were like 24-7. All the time. All the time working together. We had an online magazine about queer issues and queer artists. And so we were working together. And yeah, after she died, it was like, yeah, now what, you know? And what was what? I mean, what happened? What did you do? Well, I was left with two suitcases and 125 euros on my bank account. So I have nothing left. So I slept on people's couches and I started working in kitchens to do the dishes because I'm an art historian and I could have easily gotten a job. But I did feel that I needed to write the story down because otherwise I would lose my memories.

Obviously, your memories change. And I was so scared that I would lose those memories, too. Then I would have literally nothing left. So I worked in kitchens at night doing dishes. And during the day I wrote this book. It got released five years ago in Belgium. And now it's translated in English. So it's this kind of time warp to talk about it all over again.

It must feel quite different these years on talking about it. I imagine it was very raw when it came out. Yes. And I did a lot. It became a bestseller in Holland and in Belgium. So I did a lot of television, but it was kind of in a blur. And I do feel that now there's so much changed. You know, there are five books in between,

in between the first one and now. But also it's a big lie that time heals all wounds. That's a really big lie. It does not. But it makes the sharp edges a bit more manageable. How are you now? It's weird. I'm here in London all by myself.

So I have nobody to reflect to. You know, when I come out here, I go and eat by myself with a book and things like that. But it's also good because I didn't have anything left five years ago. I went into the survival mode and I literally took every opportunity I had to earn money because I wanted to rent an apartment and live by myself. And be able to write as well. Yes. Yeah. And so now it's been five years since she died. And it's the first time I can actually financially say no to things. So it's so weird because I I'm 50 years old and it's like I'm in my 20s starting all over which is kind of weird you know yeah it must be and and I mean but a huge

achievement for you to get from there to here I imagine you know emotionally but also practically well it wasn't really a choice for me it wasn't really a choice. For me, it wasn't really a choice because how beautiful this story was about all the weddings, we did get a lot of negativity. People were talking about that we were promoting the homosexual lifestyle. We had a lot of death threats when we started to get married. And when Julian died, the males got even worse. It was a punishment of God. She deserved to die. They wished for her to have a very painful death. People wrote that to you.

It's amazing. Yeah. And so when she died, something really weird happened in my mind. I kind of got angry. And I did realize that people aren't necessarily bad people. They are just uninformed. So I kind of realized that my job is not done yet. So that's what kept me going all those years.

And after her death, because obviously it was devastating and very traumatic and everything. But it did feel like, oh, I've got so much more work to do yes so I kept on writing I'm a I'm a I'm a public speaker I speak at companies I speak everywhere where they want me to I speak about human rights because it's so important but with a lens to to what in particular to to what you're doing about equal marriage to what you're doing about how how people can live their lives yeah yeah so I kind of tell my story and and what else there's need to be there need to be done yeah do you think it was an amazing idea to have those what then you didn't know were going to be I was just really struck by this when I was reading your story what ended up being your last weeks together to do something something as unusual as this.

Was that a good thing, do you think? Do you feel you did something amazing together? Well, when she was still able to talk, I asked her, you know, are you happy with the life that we led? And she said, we did so many things. We changed so many things. It's so amazing and obviously it wasn't long enough because we needed to do so much more um but she she really said like keep going you

know don't don't stop because we did so much good yes um and i did feel that and i wrote two children's books um there was this guy from moma in in New York who asked me if I wanted to write two children's books about my marriage project. So the Museum of Modern Art. Yes. And in the books, obviously, she doesn't die. So it kind of gave me the opportunity to finish the project, even if it was only on paper. So you have two women, Fleur and Julien, who get married in every country,

where it's legalized. Where's the best place to get married, do you think? Oh, well, we only did four countries, but New York was pretty amazing. The three-minute situation. It was pretty amazing. It was like, oh my God, we're in New York getting married. And also, you know, it got picked up by Huffington Post.

So it went completely crazy after that. We were invited to Ellen DeGeneres. Yeah, it went crazy. I bet. Yeah. Well, as you say, it must be an unusual thing to be also talking about this again with the translation. It'll be interesting to see how it's received these years on and in the English translation yeah as well I'm sure lots of people listening will be thinking don't don't go and have lunch

on your own I'll come and talk to you it's been lovely to talk to you thank you very much thank you for coming on and it's a story of course which is I imagine still very hard to tell in part even though you're carrying on with the work that you started with your wife but very grateful for the English translation. The book is called Julian which is obviously translated into English as we've been talking about but dedicated to Julian your wife who began this journey with you. Thank you very much for all of your messages today. Another one here. I can't tell you how many have been in touch

about being called a girl or a woman. I love being called a girl. I'm 26. It feels I can stay playful and unserious. But another one here saying I'm part of a women's cycling club.

We're serious cyclists and I doubt many, if anything, girls infantilises or mocks. It carries on. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Who's in the news for all the wrong reasons? Step inside the world of crisis management and so-called spin doctors with me, David Yelland. And me, Simon Lewis. In our new podcast from BBC Radio 4, we tell you what's really going on behind the scenes as the week's biggest PR disasters unfold. Simon and I used to be on opposite sides of a story in the media when I was editor of The Sun and Simon was communications secretary to the late Queen. Now we've teamed up to share everything we know about what's keeping those big stories in and out of the press. As the great philosopher King Mike Tyson himself once said, everyone has a plan until they're punched in the mouth. And there's a lot of people punching people in the mouth in this town.

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