Woman's Hour - Climate justice activist Mikaela Loach, DJ kavita Varu, 'Stevenage Woman'

Episode Date: April 8, 2023

The climate justice activist Mikaela Loach, who took the UK government to court for giving tax breaks to fossil fuels companies, discusses her new book It's Not That Radical: Climate Activism To Transform Our World. Who is 'Stevenage Woman'? The Labour Party leader Sir Keir Starmer is being urged to focus on this female swing voter group in a new report by left-leaning think tank Labour Together. But how useful are these profiles and why are they used? With Rosie Campbell, professor of politics and Patrick English, associate director at YouGov.The lawyer turned DJ Kavita Varu, who won the Inspiring Indian Women 'She inspires Rising Star' award. It's 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement was signed - Aoife Smith, the programme manager for Community Dialogue, an organisation which aims to build trust amongst people who hold opposing political, social and religious views and Hilary Copeland who is the Director of Fighting Words NI, an arts and education charity for children and young people discuss their work to ensure that peace continues in Northern Ireland.Are you afraid of the big, bad wolf? Where does this fear come from? Author Erica Berry was determined to find out after researching wild wolves in her home state of Oregon. In her book Wolfish she searches through folklore and literature to see how wolves have become the symbol of predatory men and how that has shaped our fear.The popular 1980s trend of ‘getting your colours done’ is back. The hashtag #colouranalysis has had over 800 million views on TikTok. The journalist Kat Brown who is a big believer in the power of colour, and Nisha Hunjan, founder of Style ME UK, who uses colour analysis discuss. Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Coming up, the young climate activist Michaela Loach. Who is Stevenage Woman? She's the woman that political parties want to attract ahead of the next general election. Apparently, we'll be finding out more. Also, marking the 25th anniversary of the next general election, apparently, we'll be finding out more.

Also, marking the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement, we hear from two women who are now at the forefront of ensuring peace continues in Northern Ireland. And the lawyer turned DJ, Kavita Varu, who recently won an Inspiring Indian Women Rising Star Award. I felt that my wings were clipped whilst I was married but now this is the true me. My wings have unclipped. This is me. This is what I do. I want to give a positive inspiration through music. I feel the music and the public feel the music that I play and it's just fantastic. It's a win-win. Such an inspirational story. We'll also be discussing the popular 1980s trend of getting your colours done. So what season are you? All of that to come.

But first, Michaela Loach is a climate justice campaigner who featured on the Woman's Hour Our Planet power list back in 2020. You may also know her for taking the government to court over fossil fuel tax breaks. In her new book, It's Not That Radical, she says we can't tackle the climate crisis without also addressing social injustice. Her book is a guide for climate action that she says can benefit us all. Nuala asked her what first prompted her to get involved in climate activism. I became quite passionate at first about migrant rights and migrant justice.

So I think many people will remember, I think it was back in 2016, when the absolutely heartbreaking photo of Alan Kurdi, a three-year-old Syrian boy, his body washed up on a beach in Greece, as his family just tried to seek safety. And when I saw that photograph, it really moved me. And I realised as well that I was also only three years old when I moved to the UK from Jamaica. But I was able to make that journey safely and easily because of the privilege of having a British father. So it's literally just luck of what we're born with and what privilege that is. And I realised that it was just, yeah, random luck

that meant that I was able to move easily, whereas other people end up, their bodies literally washing up on beaches. And all of that happens because of systems that are put in place in particular in the UK, our immigration system and in Europe, our immigration system. And I think I felt so moved that I wanted to do something to try and change this issue. So at first I went to Calais and volunteered on the border with France and the UK and just gave like material help, like chopping up vegetables and cooking food for people who were displaced there. And it was in Calais that I realised that changing the world is not actually this dramatically huge thing. It's lots of small actions that very ordinary people do every day.

Yeah, because I read that you're putting like a lifestyle perspective onto your climate activism. I mean, what does that mean? What are you calling for people to do in their everyday lives? When it comes to climate, it's this huge, huge issue. And I think that so many of us feel confused about it, because it's such a big issue that's impacting all of us in some way. But then we're told that what we should do is like, change very, very small things in our lives to tackle it, which just feels like this huge disconnect. And I think that that leads us

to this kind of anxiety or powerlessnesslessness because there's obviously like a mismatch that's happening there and so I think that when I talk about what we should do I think it's about how can we actually change the systems that kind of have created a world where we have this kind of climate injustice where we have this climate crisis where people are insecure lives and a way that we do that is by joining together in movements and in groups. And we do these things together and in greater campaigns. So it's not just about blaming ourselves. It's about how can we work together to create change. So you're talking, though, about another book called It's Not That Radical.

But you are talking about radical reform, if I've understood properly. Maybe you'd like to set out your stall for our listeners of how you would see the world functioning ideally with institutions what that would look like or capitalism well so the the title is kind of this like duality of the fact that in the mainstream media we get told that climate action or the having a world where everyone gets to live in dignity is this like radical ask in the definition kind of meaning ridiculous or really out there or or impossible and i think that we need to reframe what is really ridiculous. Like, I think it's ridiculous that currently we live in a world

where the majority of people in this entire world are living in very insecure lives. And whereas there are literally a very, very, very small percentage of the world who are profiting off creating very insecure lives from the majority of people. And we should be outraged at those things and not at trying to create a world

where we all live in safety and dignity. And also that this world where, when I say say safety and dignity I think the reason I say dignity is because I think that that kind of encompasses so much so many things if you're living in dignity you're able to have secure housing you're able to have water and access to food but also you're able to have joy and and love in your life and I think that that requires us to move away from our current economic system which literally exists to just make as much profit as possible and therefore it's kind of a race to the bottom and almost a competition of who can exploit more in order to make more profit. And that's what's prioritised. And I think instead, we should have a world in which the lives that we're able to live is what we're prioritising,

rather than just profit being held in the hands of a few. So it is sounding incredibly idealistic. Do you really think that a society could transform to that vision that you have within your lifetime? Now, I know you're young, I believe you're 25 years of age. But still, I mean, these are structures that are so ingrained. Do you expect to change capitalism on its head? Yeah, that's what we're doing. What am I doing if I don't believe that? And also, I think it's really important for us to challenge what we believe doing what am i doing if i don't believe that and and also i think it's really important um for us to challenge what we believe is possible because i think that us believing these things are not possible is hold is what's holding us back and that there is actually

a huge benefit of the status quo and making us believe that these things are impossible that these are ridiculous demands or these are not possible at all when it actually we look at the past how much has changed in in our lifet? How much has changed in our grandparents' lifetimes? So many transformations have happened in society and in our world. And we must just continue to push for more and demand more. And I mean, I looked to,

I was living in Colombia during the last election there. And Colombia is a country that had 200 years of elite rules. They had 200 years of uber-capitalist, like Western kind of controlled governments that only kind of existed to for the profits of a few and not for the many people in colombia and through the power of the people so through like the people who are most marginalized in society through the black community in colombia through the indigenous community in colombia and the working classes in colombia they came together and they said we are going to transform this

country we are going to change everything and now they managed to elect after 200 years of elite rule they now have a government which represents the people where the vice president is francia marquez she is an incredible afro-colombian woman she's been an activist since she was 13 years old she's the vice president of colombia now gustavo petro who was an organizer and activist for his whole life those two people are now a part of a bigger movement that is leading that country. And that's only because of people coming together and ordinary people as well. And I suppose that is through democracy, right? That is through their voting system. Is that the path that you see for change? I think that if we want to make these changes, they have to be democratic in the sense that people have to be behind them. That's my perspective. But I think

the way that we do that is to actually try and like really build power so that we can influence that system. So in Colombia, for example, they weren't waiting around or hoping for the existing kind of parties or existing systems to work for them. Instead, they were building power in their communities so they could put pressure on so that there would be popular support of a new Colombia and a new world. Interesting. You did take the government to court over subsidies paid to oil and gas companies, but lost. And I was more wondering with that aspect, what made you keep going or kind of where do you find your inspiration?

Well, I think in that case in particular, it was the fact that the government give like huge tax breaks to oil and gas companies and have given many public payments of our public money that should be being used for public good to these companies. And whilst we lost on the legal argument that it was unlawful for them to do that, the judge said that it was lawful for them to give tons of our public money to oil and gas companies, which I think we should be kind of outraged about. We were actually able to put this on public record by talking about it and having it in a legal case. Because beforehand, the government had denied that there were these negative tax years. But in a court of law, they're forced to actually admit the truth. And so I think that we have to see everything as like it's a longer game

than just like a longer struggle than just what's happening right now. I think of, for example, with the Cambod oil field, that was an oil field that we managed to stop being approved. And that was only in six months we managed to make that happen. And that might seem like this like huge, sudden win. But I see all these kind of movements as like mycelium, like mushrooms. So mycelium... I know you have a thing for mushrooms.

Yeah, I do. It's amazing because mycelium is like millions of it is under the ground everywhere wherever we're walking around we might not see it but those connections are growing constantly and they're building and then one day a mushroom will pop up somewhere and we'll think that was a miracle that came out of nowhere oh my gosh i've just found this amazing mushroom um but we don't see the mycelium that we're growing underground and i think that that's how change happens really it's like so many ordinary wonderful people are growing those mycelium networks underground we might not see them and one day that we're growing underground. And I think that that's how change happens, really. It's like so many ordinary, wonderful people are growing those mycelium networks underground.

We might not see them. And one day there'll be a wind that is like this amazing mushroom. But we have to be like willing to build the mycelium networks as well and not just be like focusing on the mushrooms. And hopefully not get poisoned. Yeah, exactly.

Keeping the mushroom analogy going. But you know, I know with some of your actions, you took the direct action, right? Which can really bug some people. Some people are really in favour of it. But whether it's, you know, tying yourself to a particular structure or getting in the way or,

and some people would say, stopping them getting to work or stopping emergency vehicles. And, you know, you do run the risk of alienating a substantial portion of the population that you're trying to convince to your way. So the actions that I was involved with were always very targeted at the government and the oil and gas industry. So I was involved with blocking outside of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategies outside of Westminster Abbey. And that was to raise awareness of these kind of fossil fuel subsidies that we then later on took the government's court around and in that

instance it was very focused and I think that direct action has a place and I think the place is it being focused on causing disruption to the right people and to the right targets I think that if we look at past movements like direct action has been a huge part of it I'm a Jamaican British woman my like right to vote in the UK was won by direct action by women. And I'm going to see Sylvia the musical soon. Very excited to learn more about that. And also my rights to be able to be free

were fought by people in Jamaica who by enslaved people who fought back. I think we get taught as if like the emancipation was handed down from above and that did not happen. Like people had to fight for it. And so I think that it's important that we remember that direct action is an important tactic within that. That was climate activist Michaela Loach there speaking to Nula. Now, is Stevenage Woman

the new Mondeo man? From Boris Johnson's Workington man to Tony Blair's Worcester woman, you may have heard of these terms used by political parties to describe the key groups they need to win over at a general election. In a new report by centre-left think tank Labour Together, the Labour Party leader, Sir Keir Starmer, is being urged to focus on Stevenage Woman. But how useful are these profiles to any party, and why are they used? Nuala spoke to Rosie Campbell,

Professor of Politics and Director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's College London, and Dr Patrick English, Associate Director at YouGov, which carried out the polling in England and Wales for that report. So why Stevenage and who is Stevenage Woman? If you look at Stevenage in the way it's voted over the last many, many, many election cycles, you'll tend to find that the constituency as a whole votes the same or picks the same winner as the winner of the election. So it's a really important seat. There are others available, of course, like Dartmouth or Lubbera, Portsmouth North and West, Worcester. But Stevenage is one that has been sort of selected in this report as the archetype of this of this voter. Now, who is Stevenage Woman? Well, Stevenage Woman is a personification, I guess,

a visualisation of a really important swing voter group currently in British politics. And that group are sort of a little bit socially conservative and sort of a little bit in favour of redistribution. Generally are not hugely politically engaged, a sort of disillusioned, a little bit in favour of redistribution, generally are not hugely politically engaged, are sort of disillusioned, a little bit disenfranchised, don't do too much politics, think there's a bit too much politics in their life, but want politicians to make them an offer that will help them get through their day-to-day lives.

And for them, a lot of that's about financial insecurity, it's about childcare, it's about other issues that affect them day to day. And they want politicians to speak to them on those levels and engage with them on those terms. You know, we'll get into whether people find that reductive or not. But Rosie, I want to turn to you. Stevenage Woman, as Patrick has outlined. What about Paisley Woman? I started hearing about her.

Well, I mean, Paisley Woman, I only heard about her yesterday, so I can't call myself an expert. But I think that the report that Patrick's produced the data for was really focused on Labour Party target seats. So not so relevant if you're the SNP in Scotland. And I think that the point of the articles that are talking about Paisley Woman is actually, there's a very similar voter who's voted SNP in the past, but might not do so next time, who perhaps, you know, that the women are more likely to be undecided voters, more often swing voters. And so actually in Scotland, maybe we're better off talking about Paisley women, but actually it's a very similar demographic. Is that fair, Patrick? Yeah, I think that's totally fair. And I think I think the point is very good that this sort of the model, the Stevenage woman, the Paisley woman,

I think really speaks to a wider look now at British politics where women are among the most volatile voters. Of course, we have the gender gap in 2015, pre-2015, where women tend to be more likely to vote Conservative. That's now reversed and reversed very, very quickly indeed. So there's lots of volatility among women as a whole as a group. I think Stevenage woman and Paisley women kind of play into that and are part of that broader narrative. But I wonder, why is the woman voter more volatile? Women tend to be less strongly partisan.

So if you look at the extremes of political opinion, the further left, the further right, you tend to see more men. Now, the exception to that is in support for the Green Party, if you might think of that as a kind of more radical view, where you tend to get more women. And so women tend to be slightly on average less interested in politics. And those who are very interested in politics are those who I know which party I'm going to vote for every time, because I'm very passionate. And women less often do that. And I think it's because historically, there've been fewer women involved in politics. If you look at the global research, when there are more women involved, women tend to get more interested.

It's also about the kinds of issues on the agenda. When the key issues are the NHS or education, women are more interested. And, of course, we keep coming back to childcare here on Women's Hour, which is expected for both parties really to be one of those issues that perhaps people will be galvanised behind. But I'm wondering, Patrick, I mean, is this an American import? Well, certainly, I think it is true that in modern politics, that we are increasingly borrowing strategies, terms, models of the way that we look at voter populations from different countries, and that includes America, but also includes Australia, France, other countries from all around the world.

We're kind of sharing this knowledge across. And I think, perhaps to speak to the broader point, I think it is a useful tool that we are bringing into British politics discourse right now because it helps party strategists, it helps commentators, it helps anybody interested really kind of visualise and personify who are the swing voters? Who is it who Jeremy Hunt is talking to when he stands up in the Commons and says this isn't a new childcare policy? Well, we might say it's probably Stevenage Woman that they've got a very close eye on in that. So I think it helps us to understand and narrate what's going on and who the swing voters, who the volatility is among right now. But do you not think that that is just for the people that are inside politics, for example, to try and narrow it down for them? And instead,

you probably will have seen that lots of reporters went to Stevenage and asked the women what they made of the label, some finding it reductive or unrepresentative. And they're kind of profiling often in an age where many don't want to be identified with a certain class or gender, basically putting people in a box. I think that's totally fair. Yes, I think it's not the case that what the report or what the data or what we would suggest is that you could go to Stevenage and talk to any woman there and say, this is how you how you will be or what you will look like, or indeed that the vast majority of women there would fit into that box. But it gives flesh, I think it gives life to this group of voters who are sort of not hugely politically interested, who really sort of want issues dealt with that they care about,

who aren't sort of on the extremes that Rosie's talked about in terms of, I know who I'm going to vote for, I know sort of where I'm going to go, they're there to be made an offer to. And I think it personifies when we look demographically at that group based on their values and their volatility, who the sort of the most common or who the most, the modal person is in that group. And for this group, it's a woman who's in her 40s, who lives in these sort of semi-urban, urban areas, who lives in a lot of swing seats, a lot of seats that are important to both Labour and the Conservatives if they're going to hold on to their majority in the next election. they're going to hold on to their majority in the next election. But Rosie, I mean, what about that? You know, the criticism,

basically, if you do have these groups, then you just have political parties pandering to a certain demographic. It's an enormous demographic. I mean, I have to say, of course, it's a simplification and no individual kind of ticks all these boxes. But to me, I'm enormously relieved. The last couple of elections where we, for the first time in the whole period that we've had data, a greater proportion of women voted Labour than men, which seemed to be almost ignored by most of the media. And the last couple of elections, the target voter, I think, was very much described as a kind of left behind man. It was as if women had just dropped out of the debate. So as far as I'm concerned, the fact that we're remembering the average voter is actually a woman.

Fifty two percent of the electorate are women. And actually, if you look among swing voters, undecided voters, they're disproportionately women. I think it's an error correction that we needed to see. Do they, Patrick, the crucial question, do they actually help win elections? Absolutely. This goes in tandem, I think. The left behind working to man is crucial to Labour and the Conservatives' winning path right now,

but so is Stephen's women. So are all of these women who don't know who their phones fall for, who want these concrete policy offers, who otherwise aren't on the extremes of politics. And these two groups, I think, can constitute the real key groups now in British politics, who those two big parties will be wanting to appeal to to win the next election. That was Dr Patrick English and Professor Rosie Campbell there speaking to Nuala.

Now, in an occasional series, we've been speaking to women for whom things haven't gone to plan, but who've turned their lives around. Kavita Varu is a lawyer from Sheffield who found herself needing to move on from an acrimonious divorce at the start of lockdown three years ago. Kavita decided to learn how to DJ. Yep, she brought some decks and even taught herself. She started doing live sessions on social media and has since played in venues from Ibiza to Amsterdam. She recently won the Inspiring Indian Women, She Inspires Rising Star Award. She told Anita about her big life change. I found myself just before lockdown being a single parent with two children, having to manage a career, raising two children on my own, financially crippled.

I was alone and I was feeling rock bottom. It's not a pleasant thing to go through and I had to do something about it. And on top of that, it's lockdown. So you've gone through this horrendous experience and then the world shuts down. And music has always been part of your life. I read that you used to sing at the temple. That was quite a big, important part of your life? I read that you used to sing at the temple. That was quite a big, important part of your life. Absolutely. So I spent most of my life singing Indian songs and hymns and prayers. I was brought up by my father, who's an Indian classical music teacher. So basically, when I was growing up, I listened to and played Indian instruments and sang at the temple, family bands. And when it came to special religious occasions at the temple, I used to sing

all the folk songs like for Navratri, which is a dance festival that takes place in autumn. So I did all of that. And then suddenly after getting divorced and being isolated, I was cut off from my community, from the temple. I was isolated with my children. And that was because of lockdown that you were isolated, not because of the divorce? No, no. Lockdown had completely cut everything off. My family are based in Leicester, so I had no form of communication other than telephone or Zoom. And then basically, you know, I was trying to find something that would fill that void up. And of all the things in the world that you could have picked to do, you decided to become a DJ.

Where did that come from I mean as a fellow music lover and DJ I mean I'm so into this but yeah what happened so basically most people in lockdown bought dogs I bought decks and I thought right and my 50th birthday party got cancelled in April lockdown had just started in March 2020 Boris just didn't announce that and I said to my dad dad with your blessings please can I just leave Indian music and do like a house and disco set you know for my birthday and do a live stream he goes beta do that you've got my blessings I love how you have to ask get your dad's permission to do it I love

that so he was full swing that you know, in front of all this. And he said to me, do it, Mita, and do a live stream. We'll watch you from Facebook. And I did an invitation to my family, but I did it on a public setting on Facebook. And I invited everybody to bring a bottle and rejoice this fantastic milestone that I was going to hit and and I tuned in uh and and did a live broadcast with some DJ decks that I bought literally months before and I said I'm going to play some Ibiza anthems and will you watch me and and just be part of my party how did you know what records play obviously this is your vibe is that these are this is the music you grew up

listening to or you just wanted to try something different uh no uh so at university in nottingham i was a bit of a sort of a dance club fanatic and i used to love listening to k class and things like that the music in the 90s i already had that inside me yeah and i just thought right these are the tracks i'm going to play uh and ibiza was on my bucket list of things to do on my 50th birthday. And I just played some nostalgic songs, you know. Shall we have a burst of a song that's quite meaningful for you? Let's do it. That song, I played so much over lockdown when I was streaming.

It means a lot, basically. The lyrics in this track really resonate with me. It basically means that I was in a situation where I didn't want to be in, but I turned my life around. I did something. I bought something that I found soul-affirming, the music. It also resonates with other people when I played it to the community because I ended up having a global following

in terms of people who watch my live streams, and it brought happiness and joy to everybody else. Which is what we were all searching for and we still are. So it started with your family, started on your 50th birthday. How did people catch on to this? I think what happened is that people had just tuned in to watch what I was doing. I was probably making a, you know, a little gimmick of it at the time, but then suddenly it just blew up because the kids were watching it on the other laptop and then suddenly it just blew up because the kids were watching it on the other laptop and said, mum, you've got about 10 people watching. Half an hour later, there was 50, then 90 people ended up watching me. And then the audience grew and grew and grew.

And then I loved it so much. I streamed every Friday called Funky Fridays on all platforms. And then the community just grew from not only Sheffield, UK, and then worldwide. And then you've gone on to actually play venues. Tell me about that. Yes, it's just mind blowing. I never thought in a million years that this would happen to me. So I ended up going to Ibiza. And then I made some connections there. And then that went on to lead to gigs at the Paradiso Art Hotel, the Beach Bay Bar, 528. I played with the Balearic legend Alfredo and Paco Fernandez,

which was fantastic. Kavita, was this your first time in Ibiza after your divorce at the age of 50? I feel like you've been, like the way you're talking about all of this now, it's like you were destined to do this. So Ibiza was always on your list of things to do it was on my list to do but it made it more realistic because I'd started DJing and I thought I need to find myself I need to go to this island which is like haunting me at the back of my mind so I went literally without insurance one-way ticket didn't even book a return

flight and I said to mum I've got to go and do this. Toured around the island, discovered it, made some fantastic connections. And it was just brilliant. And that would never have happened if you were still married. Never in a million years. Never, never, never. I felt that my wings were clipped whilst I was married. But now this is the true me. My wings have unclipped. This is me. This is what I do. I want to give a positive inspiration through music I feel the music and the public feel the music that I play and it's just fantastic it's a win-win I'm looking at you and there's absolute joy radiating from you and I know everyone can hear it in your voice and I can see it in your eyes how different were you before

to who you are now like just how much have changed? Because I can't imagine that this person didn't exist before. My personality was a bit more conservative. You know, I toed the line because I was an Indian woman. I was respectful because both my parents are Indian and my in-laws were Indian too. So, you know, it wasn't the dumb thing to be gallivanting in and out of clubs and DJing, you know. So the religious aspect was the line that I took whilst I was married, you know, and I felt that that was the right thing to do at the right moment in that part of my life. But now that I'm single, I'm divorced, you know, I don't have those commitments to, you know, the religious side.

I feel that now I can be me. This is me. 100% me. And what about the day job? Oh, the day job is going so well, too. What about all your fellow colleagues, the lawyers? What do they think about all of this? Oh, my God. It was just amazing to tell them the good news. And they were absolutely 100% so delighted and proud of me. And they couldn't believe it. They thought that, you know, is this Kavita from Legal doing this? I really enjoyed that. And so many of you appreciated that interview with Kavita too. We had this tweet come in from Ai who says, so joyful. She has the energy of a teenager i can barely shuffle to the kettle love her a dj mystery wrote this inspirational on every level someone else said

love that she found a groove so uplifting if you have a story to tell or anything that you want us to cover on the program you can get in touch via the website or on social media we're at bbc woman's hour well if you've been enjoying our series about narcissistic mothers, you can read an article all about Charlotte and Louise's story on the Woman's Hour website. How can two sisters have two very different views of the same parent? It's a fascinating read. Remember that you can also enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, you can just go to BBC Sounds and search for Woman's Hour. Now, it's been 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement was signed.

The agreement played a major part in bringing an end to 30 years of conflict known as the Troubles. Ahead of the Easter weekend, the police warned of the potential of public disorder. The chief constable of the Northern Ireland Police has said that there could be an attempt to draw officers into gun or bomb attacks. So clearly with tensions so high and no functioning government for over a year now, what are the prospects for lasting peace in Northern Ireland today? On Friday's programme, I spoke to two women who were children when the Good Friday Agreement happened, and they are now working to ensure peace continues in their local communities. Aoife Smith is the Programme Manager for Community Dialogue, an organisation which aims to build trust amongst people who hold opposing political, social and religious views. Aoife is based in Derry. And Hilary Copeland, who is director of Fighting Words Northern Ireland, an arts and education charity for children and young people. Hilary is based in East Belfast

and is also a campaigner for integrated education. First, Hilary. I went in integrated school in 1997. And the important thing was that it is deliberately inclusive of people from Protestant backgrounds, Catholic backgrounds, no religion or other religions. And we also see that not just within the school body, but across the staff and the board of governors. Integrated education is a grassroots parent-led movement. And it's amazing to see how far we've come in the past 25 years since it was enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement. But a lot of that progress has been led by people and parents themselves. Yeah, we'll come on to that and the people now driving the movement forward. But

Aoife, I think you went to an integrated school, didn't you? What was that experience like for you? That was the whole experience I had of schooling. So when I came across people who hadn't experienced that, that was sort of the unusual version for me. But really, I think even now, Hilary will know specifically, I think even now it's only 7%, is it, of children in Northern Ireland who are educated in the integrated system. So still the vast majority of children and young people are not in that system. Yeah, so it's still quite rare then.

Hilary, would you like to see more of those types of schools incorporating integrated education in Northern Ireland? Yeah, there is an amazing movement which we're seeing at the minute, which is that some schools who would be single identity are going through a process called transformation, where they are voting within their school body, with the parents, the staff, to transform their school to integrated status and there's amazing support by the integrated education fund and the council for integrated education to help them be fully informed about what that means and to have access fully to resources that will help the community understand what that can do for their school. Segregation is incredibly expensive to maintain in Northern Ireland by having single identity schools. Our education system is incredibly under pressure and integrated education is not only would be one way of solving that

economic challenge but we're seeing the benefits today of what it brings to society too. Let's talk about the Good Friday Agreement. It's 25 years since that was signed and Hilary you were obviously very young when that happened but what do you remember about that time, about the political climate and what you experienced at a young age? I was nine when the IRA ceasefire was called. And I had just started at an integrated post-primary school. And I was in my first year when the Good Friday Agreement was signed. And I remember how weighty that felt. I think the significance for us all. There's nobody who hasn't been touched in some way by the challenge and the trauma and the pain from the conflict. And what it meant was hope. It offered us something different. so many people made very difficult personal decisions when on the island, both north and

south of the border, there was a vote that people could decide to implement the Good Friday Agreement and people really took that very seriously. So I hope that our politicians still remember and can sort of honour that, that there was a lot of difficult decisions made at the time. And 25 years is a long time and at the same time it feels like yesterday in some ways to think about that we've come a long way but we've a long way to go yeah that's very much the message I'm hearing from you and and for you ether I think you were involved because your mum was very involved um as part of the women's coalition is that right what do you remember of that time and how

momentous did it feel to you? Well, so I was six when the agreement was signed and my mum was involved with the Women's Coalition, Barbara McCabe, and she would have been busy with all of these things and I would have been too young to really understand what was happening. But I do have a sense of being in those spaces.

The people involved, the the women involved the families involved um had huge responsibility and in what they were trying to contribute to and they were there to ensure that there was representation in that process that there otherwise would not have been and they came from all sorts of um perspectives and backgrounds and had families that came along with them so I think there was an incredible incredible juggling act for everybody involved at that time. I know that we and I'm sure all the other children of that sort of movement were out on the day of the referendum handing out vote yes stickers and this kind of thing so I have a very strong memory of that day and you know the odd thing being in spaces where you saw these people that you usually

saw on tv and being so young that really being able to connect up all those dots but I think there was a a really powerful sense on that day and I suppose like a huge relief that probably rippled out for everybody afterwards yeah even for children Yeah for people yeah exactly for people of all ages. Hilary I'd like to bring it to today to modern times when we reflect on Northern Ireland now and of course as you know the Stormont Assembly hasn't been sitting for over a year now what impact is that having on the country? Does it still feel like a peaceful country Hilary? So a privilege I have is we get to work with a lot of children and young people who we, through our work at Fighting Words and I, encourage to express what they, I suppose, the issues that they hold most dearly. And a lot of

the young people are telling us that they are really concerned about the climate crisis. They want to see equality, equal rights, gender identity, bodily autonomy. They are frustrated with the lack of the NI executive sitting and feel that this is something that is holding them back, that there is a disconnect with this generation who are younger than me and Aoife. They don't remember what it would have been like because they weren't born before the Good Friday Agreement.

So this is history in some ways to them and they are feeling a disconnect. What the politicians are most concerned about and their arguments for why they are not going back into the executive and what they are really passionate about. And I feel that that is really letting down all of us who are working incredibly hard to improve, to make progress. There are people who have been involved in peace building long before Aoife and I were around and will be a long time after us. And we just all have to keep going. We all have to make the best of that. And it's very, very challenging, particularly operating in the charity and voluntary sector at the minute, without having a functioning government in place. Yeah. And of course, the younger generations, Aoife, will be, I suppose, pivotal to this

movement in ensuring that peace continues. Do you find that the younger generation are asking different questions to perhaps your generation are asking and perhaps the generation before you were asking? Yeah, I think so. And I think exactly what Hilary said, like that also leads to a real sense of like disillusionment and, you know, lack of hope in that sort of system. I think there's huge hope and questions around other things, but I think that the disillusionment is very real.

And I also think there's a bit of like maybe an intergenerational tension where many of the same questions are on the list, maybe at a different order of priority and so I think that can create a tension because there's maybe even a tension around what should we talk about first never mind once you get into those those themes that Hilary mentioned as well as the like legacy issues that we still have because I think one of the big um I would say like maybe successes is that the tolerance for violence in these 25 years is like massively you know from a time where it was normal to hear about acts of violence on a daily basis or

being near to it and be around it to a place now where like really the tolerance in society for that violence is dramatically lower I think there's so many things that remain yeah questions or issues are to be addressed and I also think it's important to note that for some people in some situations, some communities, the violence is actually still, there is still a violent dynamic to life. And I think that that has to also be part of the conversation when we think forwards. Yeah, of course.

Hilary, for you, how central are women to these movements that both you and Aoife are involved in? When you look to the future, what role can women play? Well, I know I have been so inspired by women like Aoife's mum, who was involved in the Good Friday Agreement and the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition. Baroness May Blood was a founder member of the coalition, and she's been a huge advocate for integrated education and sadly passed away last year. I'm surrounded by talented women who are so committed, so passionate to working in the art sector, the charity and voluntary sector. So much of the peace movement has happened because it happened at kitchen tables and in women's centres and community centres. It's not going to be a lot of women who you will see this week and next week

when we are commemorating this. It will be a lot of footage from men at the time. A lot of men who are head of state will be the focus of the media's attention. But the real work continues to happen away from the cameras. Aoife, should women be having a more prominent role, a more visible role in this? I think yes, because it is about prominence and visibility. I think it's exactly what Hilary said. I was actually at a peace summit recently, and it was organised by the Pat and John Human Foundation and Community Dialogue, our organisation. And there were action points and things came out of that. And there were statements made about this peace that we have, with all of its remaining questions, but the peace that we have 25 years on, and who's built that. And there were statements made about this piece that we have with all of its remaining questions, but the piece that we have 25 years on and who's built that.

And there were four groups mentioned or four sort of titles that struck me. And it was women, it was mothers, it was quiet peace builders, names we not know and never know and non-political peace builders and I just think that um that that really struck me out of that day that this is like when we talk about peace there is all of these structural things and policy level things and absolutely they're all um part of it but really this kitchen table thing and the people that are doing that daily grind and who are given of themselves and are acting selflessly and are community leaders and are you know really their way of life is to bring together, that is so often, not exclusively, but it's so often those people. And so I think there's an inherentness to that being less visible because it's not about being visible, it's about a way of life.

But equally, I think somehow that needs to be addressed and it needs to be talked about and given the weight and the value that it has. That was Eva Smith and Hilary Copeland. Now, are you afraid of the big bad wolf? Where does that fear actually come from? And what should you do with that fear? Author Erica Berry was determined to find out after researching wild wolves in her home state of Oregon. In her book, Wolfish, she searches through folklore and literature to find out how wolves have become the symbol of predatory men. So how did she come to

connect some of her fears with a so-called collective fear of wolves? I really didn't set out to do that. I thought I'm going to do this serious journalistic project where I just look at the wolves as sort of the real animal. And then while I was doing my reporting and studying it for an environmental studies thesis project at college, I had experiences with men where I would be reporting and I would feel afraid and I wasn't sure whether to trust that fear. I had an experience on a train where I was going to a cabin to do work and a man sat down next to me. And, you know, what came out was that he was writing me these letters that were threatening. And I didn't know in that moment to trust my fear. And so I started thinking about Little

Red Riding Hood in many of these instances. And it was a story that I'd never thought much about. I didn't want to dwell on it. And suddenly I couldn't quite shake it. And I felt like that story, I'd always felt like it trapped the wolf in a certain way. It trapped this big, bad wolf, but it also trapped a version of a girl that I didn't want to relate to. I didn't want to think of myself in that way. And I was uncomfortable with it.

So how do you see Red Riding Hood now? I'm really curious what my listeners think about that. And I know there's different versions and whatnot, but the wolf is always there. Yeah, I mean, I think so often it's a story about a girl who is going out to explore and that was the sort of girl I wanted to be. I was going to go out in the woods and I think very often girls are sort of told, if you're going out on an adventure, you're going to go fall in love or you're going to meet a wolf. Like those are the two options in a sort of stereotypical story. And as a young woman, I think I was uncomfortable with that idea.

And I did not want to relate to the piece of Little Red Riding Hood that was true, which is that sometimes you are going to go out and encounter this fear. And I think part of this project began to think about what other stories can we tell ourselves. In the most modern versions of Little Red Riding Hood, which start with Brothers Grimm and Charles Perrault, I mean, 1697, this kind of gets codified, she becomes responsible for the violence upon her. And I think that idea of sort of the female victim has brought this upon her is a dominant cultural sort of trope that is quite harmful when you embody that. And so what do you think people should do with their fears? Because you have a number of examples in your book, whether it's a man on a train that sat next to you or a group of boys on your college

campus, for example. What do you think is a way to try and deal with that fear of a predatory wolf, for want of a better term? Yeah, I mean, I think one thing when you talk about fears, it's often like, well, you better figure out how to grow out of them. But I think understanding that you have to figure out how you've grown into it, right? And who is trying to, Little Red Riding Hood is told to stay on the path as a way of keeping her in control, right?

And there's always a form that these wolf stories, who is that wolf? It's not fair to the wolf, but it's also not fair very often how fear was in wolves and in their bodies that I started thinking about my own. So this idea that like fear in a wolf isn't always the closing of a door. It's also a sense of inquiry and curiosity. If a wolf hears something under a tree, it will go investigate. And that's scary, but that's also a bit exciting. And I started thinking about, you know, I wanted to keep going out into the forest and doing adventures, and I love camping and hiking. And so I was thinking, how can I do this? The other thing

was talking to a biologist who said, fear is not an emotion in my lab. It's a set of responses. Any plant, an animal, a human, you experience something scary, your body changes. And that was sort of helpful for me because I felt like I was really irrational when I was really hypervigilant. I was grabbed on the street one night by a strange man I didn't know. And after that, I found it really hard to walk anywhere by myself. And I thought, I've got to talk myself out of this. But of course, you can't really, like, you can't fix this patriarchal violence against women. So you can only change. I mean, I would like to. Don't get me wrong. But of course, you know, you're grappling with what is in your head, in your own control. And so understanding that my body had sort of changed

in these ways and thinking about myself as an animal, really, I think one of the things studying the wolf taught me was thinking about how wolves are afraid and how they move through the landscape. And I started, you know, feeling somewhat empowered thinking of myself as an animal, too. And were you able to get over that fear, perhaps? And I know you had fears in different areas of your life, but that particular one of sexual harassment, really? Yeah, I mean, I think women were so taught to be afraid. And then we're also taught to mistrust our fear, right? It's the fear of crying wolf and the fear of meeting the wolf. And I think I had a real hard time trusting my kind of gut instincts because I felt like they

were sort of ringing from a system that was wired with a lot of prejudice. And I do think that now I feel somewhat more comfortable sitting with it. I used to think, oh, if I grow up, I've got to learn how to minimize the fear. And now I just understand that it's learning to walk beside it and learning which things to discard, but to really live with that uncertainty. Even when you say discard, I'm thinking of a wolf in sheep's clothing. You know, there's so much language there. When I started reading your book, Hungry Like a Wolf, Wolfing Something Down, many of the things you talk about do induce fear. And, you know, there's even a question about whether to reintroduce wolves to the UK,

which is a whole other program. But you are in awe of these creatures, the real life creatures. There's one in particular, O'War, like Oregon 7, which has been tracked. Yes, exactly. What we forget is that the thing most likely to kill a wolf is another wolf. And, you know, people are more likely to die at the hands of cows or falling vending machines

or sharks or dogs. And, you know, there's this whole sort of list of things. And so the fear- Falling vending machines, we should come back to at another point as well, but continue. And that's my next book, The Real Fears of Vending Machines. But I think, you know, understanding that between that irrationality, there's a lot of storytelling, right? And to sort of sit beside that, having the chance to actually watch real wolves or to hear about the people who

really are watching them, you see that this is a creature that cares. They take care of their young collaboratively. A wolf pack will sometimes pass on territory that they're living on through the generations. And you think when we refer to someone as, say, a lone wolf shooter, what are we talking about? Because in wolf language, a lone wolf is a young wolf that's left his pack looking for family, looking for new

territory. It's a really vulnerable time in a wolf's life. And I think so many of the sort of animal metaphors we use, especially with wolves, are not tied to the scientific reality and there's a real harm there. And so I think I went into this project feeling upset about the ways that we animalize humans and also vilify the wolf. and how do we sort of like untangle those and how do we see the wolf as its own species somewhat untethered from our human projections. A lot to get into. I'm just thinking what do you think should we take away from your book Wolfish about wolves or indeed about fear? I think this idea that we're afraid when we're really in love. Fear and love are tied right. When I felt most afraid it afraid when we're really in love fear and love are tied right when I felt most

afraid it was when I was really in love with the world and I didn't want to leave it and I similarly think like the way we relate to other species has to come down to that sense of like loving this habitat under threat that we're all sharing and I think that comes down to it I have a lot of anxiety about what's happening with the world but ultimately it's about coexisting together. Erica Berry talking to Nuala there. Now, were you a spring, a summer, an autumn, maybe even a winter? The popular 1980s trend of getting your colours done is back. Did you ever flick through Carol Jackson's hit book, Colour Me Beautiful, to find your season? Being wrapped up in colourful drapes by a colour analyst was, until recently, seen as quite old-fashioned. through Carol Jackson's hit book, Color Me Beautiful, to find your season. Being wrapped up in colorful drapes by a color analyst was, until recently, seen as quite old-fashioned.

But now, the hashtag color analysis has over 850 million views on social media. You can even find a filter to help you figure out your colors on your own. Manuela spoke to journalist Kat Brown, who believes in the power of colour, and Nisha Hanjan, personal stylist and founder of Style Me. Let's hear first about what Nisha was wearing when she came into the studio earlier this week. I'm wearing a winter green, a pine green, and I'm matching it with a bright red lipstick because I'm a winter. Kat? I'm a bright spring, so I'm wearing some blacks that are suitable for my colour palette, but I'm a winter. Kat? I'm a bright spring, so I'm wearing some blacks that are suitable for my colour palette, but I'm also basically just wearing black today,

but I'm also quite premenstrual and not feeling like super glamorous. The black often comes out, I think, around periods. Not just for obvious reasons. It depends on your mood. Colour has such an impact on, if you're having a good mood, you might think, actually, I'll wear a brighter colour. If you just want to hide a little bit,

you'll think, I'll just wear black. Or you think it's slimming. And that's another thing. It's probably not slimming. The cut is what's slimming, but we would wear black, presuming it's going to make us hide a little bit. And maybe we should even go back to basics. Lots of people getting touch here. I was a warm winter in 1989. Two ladies from BBC Media Training did Colour Me Beautiful review along with the media training. I suspect as I am now greying, I will be a warm autumn. Used the colour scheme all my working life and was complimented on my turnout a lot. So it worked for me. And that's Simon.

Let's go back to basics. Where did it come from? The desire for colour has always been around. We've sort of seen this almost in reverse. It was so interesting that Simon just messaged in, because for centuries, men were the peacocks of fashion. And then in the 20th century, they just became the province of grey suits, navy suits, nothing else. And it really sort of exploded again in the 70s and 80s.

And the 80s, of course, was a real time of experimentation with colour. I mean, arguably all the colours. It was more like being part of Art Attack than necessarily a well put together tailored outfit. But what we're really seeing coming up now, particularly with Instagram, the longstanding success of Pinterest, is people wanting to understand how they can sort of dress to make themselves feel like happy and polished and put together but in a way that feels truly authentic to them definitely and where do you think it's back I honestly don't know because people would be saying to me how comes you've booked me and they were like oh I saw it on TikTok it's amazing and I think I don't know what's

happened but I think the great thing is with TikTok and Instagram you can actually see it visually you can see someone's wearing the wrong colour and instantly the next minute they're wearing the right colour. And you think, oh, my God, she looks amazing. And she hasn't had Botox or fillers or anything done. It's just the colour in that exact moment. So I think that's where Instagram and TikTok have really helped it. But it's good for us. Both of you mentioned the seasons.

Do you go with the seasons? Yeah. Autumn, winter, spring or summer. I know people do warm winter, cool spring. I don't know what how that really works I haven't trained that way but I just want to know what palette am I give me around 30 colors and the thing is whatever color palette you are you're that for life it doesn't change the reader was saying that you will become a warm autumn or even if your hair color changes even if your hair color changes so it's an investment you only did it once in your lifetime and the sooner you probably get it done is better, is what I would say. But if you look at somebody, Nisha, will you

immediately know what they are? No, that's the whole thing, right? They all say to me, what am I? What do you think I am? And I'll be like, it's a 50-50 guess because I don't know what your undertone is. You might be cool or you might be warm. And that's why we can charge for it, ultimately, because anyone can just say to you, oh, I'm a trained colour analyst and oh, I think you're an autumn, I think you're a spring. But the only way to really work it out is with specifically designed drapes. You need daylight.

You're going to get a 50-50 cent thing and a lot of people are being trained now that aren't actually that qualified for it. So you might be getting told you're a season and you're not that. So get it done by the right people. I'll come back to the cost in a minute. But Kat, you did get your colours done right

2017 is that correct? I did. You were ahead of the trend in there or behind the trend depending on where we're talking about the 80s right now but what was the experience like? It was really lovely because I'm like a lot of I'm 40 and like a lot of women my age I grew up with my mother's own colour me beautiful book in bedroom. And the only redhead in it in that entire book was automatically categorised as an autumn. And so I spent a long time being forced into horrible shades that didn't suit me at all, because I was a redhead. Oh, well, the 90s classic sort of brown skirts and sort of anything sort of sludgy and depressing because it goes with your hair, but it doesn't at all so having these drapes put around you which sounds a little bit like that bit in sound of music with the curtains but it's much more about sort of seeing which colours like make your skin look sort of alive and make you

look a bit more joyful and it was really lovely because it showed me that it showed me colours that I should go shopping for it's given me lots to look at on Instagram. Unfortunately, the reality is that there aren't always those sorts of colours and the shapes that suit you. And throw in the fact that whilst I'm a straight-sized woman, I'm also six foot one. So shopping is always a bit of a challenge anyway. But it does mean that I always know what colours to look out for. And if I see them, you'd better best I'm going to whip them off the shelf. So you're a light spring. So what does that mean? What are your colours? A bright spring. I know. A bright spring. So what does that mean? What are your colours? A bright spring.

I know. A bright spring, okay. It's really like the horoscopes. So actually, the Woman's Hour microphone fluffy thing here is a perfect shade of bright spring red. It's almost, it's very saturated. It's warm. I'm always attracted to that colour.

My colouring is quite similar to yours. But my mum said, I think I was a good five or six at the time, and somebody said to her, she hadn't noticed I was a redhead at this stage, and somebody said to her, she hadn't noticed I was a redhead at this stage. And somebody said to her, oh, you should never put a redhead in red. And she was like, oh, she's a redhead. But that was kind of the old saying that it used to be, right? But that's not correct.

We have to throw out some of the old, perhaps, stereotypes we have in our heads about certain colours. Yeah, definitely. There's certain colours that are going to bring out the best in you, certain colours that won't work for you. And once you know what they are, that's the key. And what is it? Is it the reflection against your skin or? It's the combination of your skin, eyes and hair colour. You put one colour on and it will drain you, put another colour on and instantly your eyes will get brighter, your jawline will look stronger. But let's talk about it though. It's not a science. It can cost upwards of £300. And people be like, you know, that's money for old rope. What would you say? I would say that £300 is too much to spend on it. I think you should be able to get your

colours down for around about £100, £150. But I would say this, you only need to get it down once in your lifetime. It's an investment. And once you know that, think about all the money you will save in the long run from not buying the wrong colours. And I think right now with sustainability, we're at that stage now. We don't just go into Zara and keep buying a top every week. If you buy a top, you want to make sure it's in your wardrobe because it suits you. It stays in your wardrobe so you can mix and match it from day to night. You know, build yourself a capsule wardrobe. I definitely need to find out what my season is.

Lots of you enjoyed that chat with Nisha Hunjan and Kat Brown. Bridget emailed in to say, I had my colours done in the early 90s and still have the colour swatches provided. I try to stick with the recommendations. I'm a warm autumn. Hmm, sounds nice. Loved my session. Money well spent. Geraldine said this, when my mum was in her final months of life, she couldn't get out of bed and struggled to speak. She did, however, find the energy to tell me not to wear orange. I was hoping for something a bit more profound, but as deathbed advice goes, it will have to do. I had my colours done when I won a voucher in a raffle. Orange wasn't in the palette, so I guess she was right.

Well, mums are always right, aren't they? That's all from Weekend Woman's Hour, but you can join Nudah on Easter Monday for a programme all about artificial intelligence. How will the progress of AI impact women? Well, Nudah will be speaking to experts in the field, as well as a real AI robot artist. That's on Monday at 10am. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Anita Arnand and over the next 10 episodes for BBC Radio 4, we're going to be exploring a somewhat tricky title, Princess. Join me as I speak to guests like the comedian Sharpa Korsandi and presenter Charlene White about their favourite princesses. We're going to be unpacking scandalous and

fabulous legacies, sharing the stories behind some of the most incredible princesses in history. Join me, Anita Arnand, for Princess on BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.