Woman's Hour - Co-parenting, Homelessness and women, Dr Jessica Taylor

Episode Date: May 1, 2024

Being evicted from your home is an incredibly distressing time for anyone. Something 56-year-old Heidi Dodson is about to experience, she's being evicted by her private landlord from her home. She approached her local council for priority housing but was declined. In a letter from Thurrock Council, she was told she should be able to function 'reasonably well' if she ends up on the streets. Thurrock Council say they are 'truly sorry for the language used in this letter and the distress it has caused. Heidi speaks to Clare McDonnell along with Polly Neate, Chief Executive of housing charity Shelter. What is it really like to be a co-parent? Hayley Allen’s son spends the weekdays with his dad and she takes care of him at the weekends. Carly Harris’ two children spend 80% of their time with her and are looked after by their dad every other weekend. Clare talks to Hayley and Carly about the difficulties and benefits of co-parenting.Dr Jessica Taylor is a best-selling author and chartered psychologist who runs the research consultancy VictimFocus. Her new book, Underclass, is a memoir, detailing her childhood on a council estate in Stoke, the trauma and abuse she suffered and her journey to becoming a professional campaigning on behalf of other victims. Jessica joins Clare to talk about why she wanted to write it.As the second wife of Henry VIII Anne Boleyn’s life and death have been well-documented but what about her sister Mary? A new play, The Other Boleyn Girl, has opened at Chichester Festival Theatre based on Philippa Gregory's best-selling novel. Lucy Phelps plays Mary and Freya Mavor is Anne – they join Philippa Gregory in a conversation with Clare. Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Emma Pearce

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Claire Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Today, a 56-year-old woman about to be evicted from her privately rented accommodation, she approached her local authority for help. Her priority housing application was declined and then she received a letter telling her she should be able to function reasonably well if she ends up on the streets. Thurrock Council in Essex has apologised for the wording of the letter,

but with housing charity shelters saying women have been disproportionately affected by the housing crisis and rising rents, why are women in situations like this tumbling down that priority list? We're going to hear from Shelter on the programme this morning and speak to the woman at the centre of it all, Heidi Dodson. Here's another question for you. When is a woman a great dad? Answer, according to one of our guests today,

is when she co-parents at the weekends. It's what many fathers do, of course, after a couple's split. The problem Hayley Allen has is that she says she gets judged and called un-motherly for being perfectly happy with the situation. Today, we'll look at the prejudices

and challenges women face when co-parenting. Hayley will join me and we'll also hear from Carly Harris, who co-parents her two young children for the majority of the week and has an entirely different story to tell. And I'd love to hear your experiences of co-parenting

and whether you have felt the BDI of judgment if you've gone against gender norms. You can text the programme. The number is 84444. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. We're on social media at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through the website. As memoirs go, the story of Dr Jessica Taylor's early life and teen years is quite simply a jaw-dropping story of survival against the odds. Brought up on a council estate in Stoke,

the eldest of seven children, Jessica describes her early childhood as a normal working class upbringing. But that unravelled in her teen years, culminating in her rape at the hands of her violent boyfriend. Jessica is now a best-selling author and chartered psychologist. She will walk us through her memoir and tell us how that early trauma has helped her in her life's work to better understand and help victims. And great tomes have been written, films made, dramas serialised about Anne Boleyn. But what if her, some might say, more interesting sister, Mary, forced at a very young age into a sexual relationship with Henry VIII, who her sister would go on to marry, of course, she became a pawn in her family's lust for power. Philippa Gregory wrote the best-selling novel The Other Bowling Girl about Mary, and that has now been made into a play. It's on now at the

Chichester Festival Theatre. Delighted to say Philippa will join me live, along with actors Lucy Phelps, who plays Mary, and Fre Freya Mavour who portrays Anne. All of that on the way here on Woman's Hour. But let's start this morning with this. Being evicted from your home is an incredibly distressing time for anyone, something my next guest is about to experience. The number of people being made homeless in England jumped by 16% in the final three months of last year, according to the latest government figures. Something we'll discuss shortly with Polly Neate, Chief Executive of the housing charity Shelter. But first, let's hear from Heidi Dodson, a 56-year-old woman who is going to be evicted today by her private landlord from her home. She approached

her local council for priority housing but her application was declined and that letter from Thurrock Council she was told she should be able to function reasonably well if she ends up on the streets and even if being homeless led her to having to sleep rough occasionally or in the longer term she should not be more vulnerable than any other ordinary person in the same situation. Well, the council has apologised for the wording of the letter. Heidi joined me early this morning and told me more about her situation. At 11 o'clock, I will be evicted from my property, me and my son and I will be heading to Farwick Council in hope that they will put me in temporary

or something. And you feel that you have to do this because you have no other options at this stage? This is it. To rent privately is astronomical out there absolutely insane the the prices that they're asking each month and the upfront rent that you have to put down sometimes you have to put down two maybe three months rent so you're looking at six eight thousand who realistically has that kind of money just to pull out from anywhere let's go back a bit you approach the council thorough council to ask for help and you were turned down your housing application was turned down but tell us a little bit more about the letter you received from them i put forward 38 documents and she came back and said to me I don't meet the four criterias so therefore

the council does not have priority to house me and remain homeless and sleep in roughly on the streets, that she feels that I would cope quite well. And how did you feel when you read those words? I couldn't speak for the moment. I was so shocked. I had to read it over and over and over again because I thought to myself, this is someone saying to me that I would be okay. I'm 56 due to be 57, but I would be okay sleeping roughly. It is quite hard to take that in. I'm reading the section myself. It says, looking at the facts, I believe that you are resilient enough to manage with a reasonable level of functionality. I am not satisfied that your ability to manage being homeless, even if that homelessness were to result in you having to sleep rough occasionally or in the longer term, would deteriorate to a level where the harm you are likely to experience would be outside the range of vulnerability that an ordinary person would experience. Why do you think they wrote that?

I honestly don't know. To be quite honest with you, I had to get my son to read it out to me so that I wasn't skipping words as I'm reading it. You have been homeless in the past, haven't you? Do you think they had prior knowledge of this? No, they would never have had knowledge of that. That's, you know, something in my teen years. We have this from Thorough Council.

They've told us in a statement that we have agreed a personalised housing plan. We are supporting Heidi to find a suitable home. We've offered advice about her rights and the financial support available. This support is ongoing as we continue to work to help her secure a suitable new home. And they've also apologised

for the wording of the letter. So what do you say to that? Well, that's the first time I'm hearing about it. You haven't had a personal apology for the wording of that letter? No. I mean, clearly with you going to the council later this morning uh because you have nowhere else to go what do you think has been lacking communication since my housing advisor that once she put the no priority for me to me. She phoned me I think it was a week

afterwards and she went well I wish you all the best and I hope you find somewhere. You are in private rented housing just to put people in the picture, the council pay the majority of your rent, the council pay the majority you have to pay the top up but you're not working at the moment because it isn't

you say it's not financially viable to work can you explain that? Well well i was working i was working in lakeside and i was only i was bringing home 606 pound a month the rent is 900 a month which is really cheap and then it's um the council said not to worry because i could apply for discretion or housing payment to help with top up. So the issue for you and many people listening to this is the rising rent crisis and what you're given to help with that is just simply not enough. No, it's not enough. There really needs to be more housing for people on benefits you know because the thing is is that you're working but you're not even having a little bit of money to save the stress is still more overwhelming because you're working the hours and then it's like i'm still not meeting my rent. And I've got council tax and water rates and gas, electric, food and so forth.

And you can't even have any of that. Heidi, are you all packed up now? It sounds like I'm talking to you in quite an echoey room. Yes, it is. It's just very echoey now. So you go to the council this morning. What is next for you? Just to sit at the council, isn't it? Just to see what happens.

Do you have anywhere you can go? Is there anyone who can help you? I have my daughter, but she's ill herself. She's got my grandchildren. So yes, I could possibly go there, but that's not a long-term thing. does it leave you feeling as a 56 year old woman in this position effectively homeless at your age i never ever thought that i would be in this situation at this age never it is so disheartening degrading it really is through all the things that i've been through in my lifetime today is the most overwhelming i don't even know how i'm still standing up and coping to be quite honest with you heidi dodson who is on her way to the council offices in this hour. We know the cost of renting privately in the UK rose by 9.2% in the year to March 2024, the biggest jump since records began in 2015.

And it is five years since the government in England first pledged to ban Section 21 evictions, whereby landlords can evict tenants with two months notice without giving a reason. Well, to discuss Heidi's situation and the situation more broadly, I'm joined now by Polly Neate, Chief Executive of Housing Charity Shelter. Polly, welcome. Hi, thanks for having me. I could see you shaking your head during that interview. What do you think to her situation? Honestly, I don't know what to say, because Heidi has so eloquently expressed the depths of the housing emergency that we're now in in this country and its impact on women. I mean, there's plenty of context to that, but that the impact on her is replicated in our daily caseload, our hourly caseload at Shelter. We've got 220 women being served a Section 21 no-fault eviction a day, right?

And they are still not being effectively ended by the government. But I think another important bit of context is the total lack of available social housing now. So we're actually going backwards every year in delivery of social housing, which means that there literally are no, as Heidi very adequately explained herself there are literally no homes that people on low incomes can afford to live in um and what that means is councils are rationing more and more social homes um and that's what the very unfortunately worded letter that Heidi received it was trying to inadequately to explain. What do you think to the wording of that letter? Well, I mean, it's obviously an incredibly upsetting letter to receive. Nobody can deal

properly, properly is not the word, nobody can deal with having to be homeless in a way that any of us would want to have to live through. You know, this is a highly traumatic and particularly for women, very dangerous experience, particularly if you end up sleeping rough. And obviously, it's ridiculous to expect any normal, ordinary person to cope with it. But the way councils have to ration social housing, and I also might add, it's actually rationing a waiting list of well over a million people. It's not rationing an actual, you know, here you go tomorrow, here's your keys situation um the way councils have to ration that is by putting very very um hard to meet criteria on that waiting list and even as i say even with that the waiting list is completely unmanageable even though it was clumsy wording do you have sympathy with the

council um i mean i i don't have sympathy with the word the way it was worded, but I understand the position that the council are in because all local authorities are in that situation where we simply got, and this again is disproportionately affecting women, we have got huge numbers of people, well over 309,000 people at the moment in temporary accommodation. And it's, you know, it's come to something when someone like Heidi is hoping she'll get into temporary accommodation. Temporary accommodation is not a great place to be. It's not temporary by any normal definition of the word. I want to put to you what the government says. The Department for Leveling Up and Housing Communities gave us this statement. We want everyone to have a safe place to call home, which is why we're giving councils 1.2 billion so that they can give

financial support to those who need it, helping them to find a new home and move out of temporary accommodation. The renters reform bill will deliver our manifesto commitment to abolish section 21 no-fault evictions and ensure a fairer private rented sector for both tenants and landlords. And these are the biggest changes in 30 years. And I appreciate there has been a delay on no-fault evictions, which may not happen before the next government or the next election.

But they have made big commitments to change the rental sector. They are committed to giving greater protections to people who find themselves in this situation. That is true, isn't it? Well, so there's a difference between being committed to doing something and actually doing it.

It's not only the case that we may not see an end to no-fault evictions before the election. Actually, there's no timetable on it. What's happened is it's been completely kicked into the long grass after pressure from backbench Conservative MPs, many of whom are landlords themselves. And actually, there are provisions in the bill as it stands that will undermine the ending of no-fault evictions, undermine tenants' rights, even if we actually ever do see an end to them. And, you know, at Shelter, we, my colleagues, have worked tirelessly with the government on this bill for years. And it is not, you know, withdrawing our support for the bill is not something that we would do lightly.

But we need to see people like Heidi properly protected from being evicted for absolutely no reason. And just briefly then, your advice for people listening to this who are in the same situation as Heidi? You can get help from Shelter, either look at our website. There may sometimes be ways that we can support you in this situation. But what Heidi is doing is right. You know, she does need to present herself as homeless to the council and they do still have some duties towards her. But I would also say, you know, we have lots of ways that you can join with us to push for change in this really awful housing emergency that we're in.

So look at our website because it's time for people to campaign on this. Polly, thank you so much for joining us. Polly Neate there, Chief Executive of the Housing Charity Shelter. Text us 84848. If you have experienced this or have a view on it, you would like to share. We would love to hear from you.

Now, what is it really like to co-parent? How do you share the parental load once you've separated from your partner? Well, my next guests are here to tell us about their experiences.ley allen is a fitness instructor she has a nine-year-old son and he spends the weekdays with his dad and she takes care of him at the weekends and carly harris is also a fitness instructor and has two children aged four and two and cares for them 80 of the time hello both of you. Hi. Hiya. Hello.

Two very different experiences. And Hayley, you got a lot of attention recently because you posted on TikTok to say that you are a great dad. Indeed. Explain that to everyone listening. Well, whenever I talk about my son living primarily with his dad, you obviously get a lot of criticism from both sides, men and women. And I didn't really think this

was a thing until I started talking about it and the double standard just really struck me that if I was a man a dad I would absolutely by any one standard be called an incredible parent I I do all the things you know I take him out the weekend we have fun I buy him extra stuff I pay job maintenance all those things I would be an incredible dad. Women would find me incredibly attractive. What happens now then? What kind of judgment do you get? Oh, that I'm selfish. That's the main one, that I'm selfish.

And I think it's more, someone commented something recently that, oh, I don't mind the setup that you've got. It's the fact that you seem to enjoy your time when he's not with you. And I was like, well, excuse me, ma'am, what would you like me to do? Just sit at home crying? that you've got is the fact that you seem to enjoy your time when he's not with you and I said well excuse me ma'am what would you like me to do just sit at home crying like I have free time that I didn't have before why do I have to be this suffering woman for you to be happy there's an expectation that you should be miserable miserable separated from your children missing him endlessly well no I've got work and hobbies and a life and I very much look forward to our weekends together

and I plan fun stuff. But I'm not going to sometimes pretend that I'm suffering and missing him and there's this hole in my life. You know, he's 10 now. Times change. This wouldn't have happened when he was two years old because, yeah, I was very much attached to him

as most mothers are, most and all. But times change, things change. children's needs change we change tell us how your situation came to be because as you say you did start off with him living with you yeah so what what developed what happened a mixture of things um his father ended up having a bit more free time I um decided I want to do a bit more with my life post-covid like most people have a life change in post-covid so I decided to do a little more and he started to spend a little bit more time here and there his dad's a couple of nights here a couple of nights a couple of nights here and it just progressed to him messaging can I stay at dad's another night and then his dad

after about a year of that his dad messaging said he's talking about living over here more how do you feel about that I was. How do you feel about that? I was like, hmm, how do I feel about that? Yeah, actually. I think I'm ready for this. A bit more free time. I can do more things in my life. And it happened slowly, but quickly all at once.

And it didn't feel like a wrench? No, it didn't. And I'm very unapologetic in saying that. And I think it would be easy for me to pretend because that's what people want to hear. They want to hear that, yes, I'm sad and I miss him every day. And I'm when I'm away doing this and that and the other that I miss him. And the truth is, I'm busy. I have a lot of things in my life. And being a parent is a huge thing. And I do it's the most incredible child. There's nothing, you know, he's not a hardship. That's for sure. He's the most incredible child there's nothing you know he's not a hardship that's for sure he's the most incredible child but no um i'm really enjoying this free time and i'll be honest i always say this doing the weekend parenting is an easy gig i will no longer have sympathy for people who have

their children two nights a week so easy do you think you you said the unsayable but actually a lot of people maybe a lot of people listening to this will a lot of women listening to this will think i wish i could say that well this is what it's hard it's very very hard i get so many messages from women in my situation who don't tell anyone that they are not the primary carer because of the shame they feel and the criticism they are going to get and they cannot face being called a terrible mother being called um selfish and and I'm such a shame because men would again they just do not get the same criticism let's bring in Carly Harris now uh Carly you have two children age four and two and you look after them 80% of the time you're a single parent and this was it wasn't your choice to be in this situation was it no it wasn't um I've been a single parent

for about a year now that's just over um. And for me, the biggest struggle I had was time apart from my kids. I never planned on having children to not be with them all the time. I'd never even, you don't consider it until you're in that situation. And for me, when everything happened, my biggest fear was was oh my god like I'm going to have to spend time apart for my children and that's not my choice um so that's something I've struggled with um even particularly at the start having those weekends away from my kids I used to spend crying and I think it does take time to adapt to it. I think particularly like my eldest, he was a COVID baby. I was very, we were very much spent all our time with each other.

That's all we kind of knew. So separating things like nursery and stuff were very, very challenging anyway. But I think I didn't realise how much, how close I was until I had this time apart. And don't get me wrong, like over the last year, I've certainly started to adapt to it. And I've started to make the most of my child-free weekends. And even then, I feel like I'm judged on that small period of child-free time. I feel like I'm judged if I go away or go on a city break or something like that.

I feel like people are very quick to judge any time away from your children, even if it's something that's not particularly your choice and how you're spending that free time. So I do agree in terms of what Hayley was saying, that I think people are very quick to judge how you're spending your free time and think you should be spending that whole child free time like morning. Who judges you? Who's judging you? So I share a lot on my social

media media platform I'm on Instagram um I host um a podcast where we talk all about kind of being a single parent it's called motherhood not as we planned um and you a lot of people put their kind of opinions on you you know you get all sorts of where are the kids they're with their dad like you feel like you have to justify a lot of it and like even if I've got it's really hard. Yeah so you've got common ground here different life experiences but common ground you get that too Hayley? Oh everyone where where's your child? Yeah with his dad well where do you think he is? Left in a cupboard under the stairs. It astonishes me that it doesn't even occur to a lot of people that the child is with their father. It's not even a thought.

You have to tell them. That's wild. So do we get to the nub of this, which is there's an expectation that if you split up and you're co-parenting, it's fine if you're a mother and you're miserable, but not if you're, you know what, I'm fine with that. I'm okay with that.

I've got some time back and I'm living my life, which makes me a better mother when I'm with my child. Well, being a woman is, guilt is ingrained in part of being a woman. Unless we're suffering and feeling guilty, people are just not very happy with you. And when you're doing something for yourself, when I go away, a lot of people go away, they go away with their husband for a little romantic break.

But that's fine because she's serving her husband or she's going away for her sister's hen do. that's so fine because she's doing it for someone else the minute I go no I'm going to Venice with a book and they're like whoa that's incredibly selfish not taking your son not taking my son no he's 10 and doesn't want to walk around Venice Carly have you moved beyond this now you say you're in a more comfortable place I know you had a very difficult time and it's only been a year or so but you were um on Mother's Day because of the child care arrangements you weren't with your son and those kind of days or your children that's going to be a wrench isn't it but where are you on that journey to kind of saying I'm all right with

this arrangement now I'm not quite there yet I'll be honest um I'm still experiencing quite a lot of firsts um still I think well I'm in the divorce process so things aren't finalized yet and I think for me it's still adapting I'm not gonna lie I am one of those mums that even when I go I went on like a slightly longer trip last month and there was a banquet it was school holidays so my ex-husband had the kids slightly longer I think it was three nights or four nights and I'm only used to two nights max and that kind of tipped me over the edge a bit like I had a cry and I'm still adapting to that and I do struggle with that and I kind of I think that's okay I think it's okay from both ends like I've always been an incredibly maternal person for me like the one thing growing up I knew I 100% wanted to be was a mum I gave up my teaching career

um to create a job for myself at home a self-employed um situation so I could spend more time with my kids um so yeah I mean I'm making the most of my kid-free weekends that doesn't mean I'm not struggling I try and distract myself a lot and I am enjoying life again. But I still do have those days, particularly like Mother's Day, not waking up with my kids. You know, this I'm already thinking about Christmas this year. It's not going to be my year to have the kids on Christmas Day. That gives me the worst anxiety. Like I'm already dreading it. It's nowhere near December yet. But they're all things I find really hard. And I think a lot of mothers in particular,

but I also know fathers who struggle with that change. Yeah, it's a big change. Excuse me, Hayley, what would be your advice to Carly as somebody who had a kind of slower build up to the situation you're in? And clearly you're much more comfortable with it now. I think it changes depending on the age of the children as well. I mean, I couldn't imagine a situation when my son was, let's say, two or three years old.

So I absolutely understand. It depends on the age. She sounds like she's got loads of hobbies anyway. So it's having a life. It's having hobbies. It's having interests outside of being a mother. It depends on the age of the children. I think that is important.

I can't imagine this. I was, you know, I did breastfeeding to 18 months old we co-slept the thought of him being taken from me at two or three would yeah that that seemed impossible to me but times change we change we grow our children grow and their needs change and so it's about adapting to that and taking your ego out sometimes losing your ego you know sometimes we're not the best primary carer at that time and they are having a great time with our father who is looking after them, who is caring for them, who is meeting for their needs just as well as we can. Whereas we love to think that we are the best parent and we are the most suited carer.

I love that line I read that you said that it's great in this situation because your child has more people to love him. Absolutely. And I grew up not in a family. I don't have a very close family, a very big family. And that's one thing I really want for him. You know, he's now got, his dad's got a partner. And the more people that love my child, the better. And that's, and people call me selfish for not having him so much.

But on Christmas, he went to his dad's because his dad can provide a more family-based Christmas. And that's more important than my feelings absolutely. Carly just final comment from you on that just are we sometimes a bit egotistic when it comes to our children? Maybe but I don't know I think where I've always been like the default parent I feel like I've always been the one to think of like the extra thing the wash this that they whether they need the next clothes up like I do feel like I've always been the one to think of like the extra thing the wash this that they whether they need the next close up like I do feel like I've always been that parent who can maybe do things the best for my kids because I feel like I've spent the most time with them and I know them and obviously that might not be correct but that's just how I feel at the moment you're both

brilliant mothers I can tell and it's been fantastic having you on. Thank you so much for dropping by the Woman's Hour studio. That is Hayley Allen and Carly Harris. If you have a view on this, do text the programme if you're going through it right now, 84844. This texter, my ex-partner and father of my children, insisted on having our children equally on alternate weeks. As a mother, I was horrified, but it actually worked out quite well.

And our children get lots of love and attention from us both. But I struggle to tell people I don't have my children half the time. It makes me feel like a bad mother. Exactly what Hayley was talking about there. 8-4-8-4-8 on the text, if you'd like to get in.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

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Dr Jessica Taylor is a best-selling author and also a chartered psychologist who runs the research consultancy Victim Focus. Her new book, Underclass, is a memoir detailing her childhood on a council estate in Stoke and the trauma and abuse she suffered and her journey to becoming a professional campaigning on behalf of other victims. Delighted to say Dr. Jessica Taylor joins me in the studio now. Good morning. Morning. This is quite a read, I have to say. It's jaw-dropping really

to see you sitting in front of me now, to know that you survived that. There's this quote that says, my estate terrified me, it stripped me down to nothing, it humiliated me, mocked me, exploited and abused me, it destroyed me, it stripped me down to nothing, it humiliated me, mocked me, exploited and abused me, it destroyed me, it rebuilt me. It was brutal, very much of your teenage years. Why did you feel the need

to record it in the way that you have? I don't think I ever planned on doing that. I think that it has come about because of the judgment I have had as a working class academic and as a psychologist that I have felt several times that I've been criticized and judged for my background you know that yes I am a victim yes I did come from a counselor state yes all these horrible things did happen to me but I am still a competent professional and a psychologist. And there was this part of me, I guess, that was just hidden. Like there's an expectation in academia that you're not supposed to admit if you're from, you know, working class, underclass, council estate background, because you've now moved into these upper echelons of society

and you're supposed to be smart and you know move into these middle classes and I just didn't fit in at all. You would have thought in the field of work that you've got into in your area of expertise that that would be something to be celebrated there'd be a queue of people out the door saying we've got all of these vulnerable people and we need to know how best to help them oh let's call up Dr Taylor you're saying that's not been your experience no not at all and I think that that for me was also a shock it was I guess I thought that there would be some recognition in some way that if I've lived all this stuff and also I've gone out and got all these qualifications that I would be in a great place to sort of relate to people and know what I was doing but actually

what happened was that I was repeatedly and I talk about in underclass, I was repeatedly given advice, stop talking about your council estate, stop talking about being abused as a child, stop talking about being raped, stop talking about being a teenage mom, because people are not going to take you seriously if you carry on. Wow. Let's talk then about the detail of your teenage years. You say, you you know your early life was pretty happy and then it massively unraveled how and why I had and I think this is I think it's been quite important I think I have a really solid like young childhood foundation so mom and dad were together I had a really active family um you know it you know dad was a really active family. You know, it, you know, dad was a really active dad, really friendly, really great guy.

Mum was a really active mum and like everything was all sort of together until I was about 11. And then they divorced and it was pretty tense, pretty messy. And I was the eldest. I'm the eldest of seven children. And it just imploded. You know, dad didn't cope. Mum didn't cope. And we had to move away. We had to sell the house. We ended up at the council estate. Then we'd up in the rough end of the council estate. Dad moved away and it just spiralled. And, you know, it was around that time, like the early noughties, where in our particular council estate, where I grew up in Stoke, there is no resource, there is

nothing good going on, you know, it was a dangerous place to be. Everybody that I grew up with, I still talk to, we still talk about, you know, some of our friends are dead, some of our friends are in prison, most of our, you know, female friends have been sexually assaulted, raped, trafficked, you know, all the things that happened to us all and actually I would say a lot of the women that I speak to now who are now my age early 30s you know I'll sit with them and they'll go yeah to be honest Jess I've blocked a lot of that out yeah well you did too didn't you I mean we're going to get into some of the detail now so just to just warn people I mean there's another quote here to survive you had to learn another form of intelligence one that can't be taught at school

or university you have to learn about people you have to learn quickly in other words you learn new words new codes new body language that was your kind of uh ticket to survival in many cases you had an extremely violent boyfriend didn't you called jace tell us about him he was only like i think a year and a half two years older than me we met at school and you know teen violence teen abuse is rampant I know that now as a professional but I was living that as well when I was younger and I think it started off really slow it started off like him saying I don't like your friends you know they don't like me like you should hang around with me and my friends and then it was comments about my appearance and then it got really violent really quickly. And I was totally trapped

in it. I didn't know how to get out. I thought it was completely normal. Lots of my friends were in abusive situations. I had friends that were, you know, alongside me being given drugs and alcohol and, you know, being raped and being sexually abused. And we were all sort of moving in these big groups where it was completely normal. But I think you're absolutely right. It's like, I think for me as a psychologist, there is an edge to me that you can't get if you've not lived that stuff. I have been in situations that other people have only read about. I've been in situations and with people that they might read a case study about at university or they might meet one for half an hour in an interview, but they've not lived any of it.

They don't know how to hold their own in a situation. They don't know what to do when you're at knife point. They don't know what to do if someone's starting on you and you don't know how to get out of a fight. They don't know how to survive in poverty. I think, you know, it's different. And this happened to you. I mean, tell me if you mind talking I think you know it's it's different and this happened to you I mean tell me if you mind talking about it but it's in the book when when he violently raped

you I think that was probably one of the hardest parts to write about there was two really difficult parts of the book and that was one of them and it was because there is a scene in the book where he holds a pair of scissors to my neck and rapes me and then he stands he flips the bed over and stands on the bed frame and the bed frame is on my skull and he's standing on it and I remember and I think it was that was one of the hardest bits to write because I I had to really sort of reconnect back to that moment where I wanted to die because the pain was so indescribable and I thought my skull was going to crack that I just thought I would rather be dead than this um and then he just like I don't know what happened I don't know whether he just thought I'd had enough or he'd changed his mind and he just got off,

walked out and left. And the pain, and I was doing my GCSEs at the time because I'm a child, aren't I? So this was around the time I was doing my GCSE exams. So it was hard, I think, really thinking back to a moment where I was late. I still I can actually feel it like I like I can that I'm in my face is like in this scrubby nasty disgusting old carpet and I'm trapped under all these things I can see all the things under the bed with me and I'm just like

waiting to die and just thinking that it's got to be better like in a few more minutes it'll be over in a few more minutes I'll be unconscious in a few more minutes I'll be dead it it was you know that was hard to write about because I've not really thought about that I sometimes feel like I'm living a totally different life now you say in the book that you buried it but you knew it would come back and tap you on the shoulder one day when did it I think it really came up at when I was my PhD. I think that, you know, I'd gone off and I'd got this degree and I was proud of myself and I was bringing up two little kids. I was working full time. I was studying for the degree.

And then I got onto a PhD at a top university and I was like, oh, my God, I've made it, you know, like I've done it. And then I'd been doing the PhD. It was going really, really well for about two years. I was getting all these opportunities, all these research contracts, everything was going really well. And then a psychologist basically sent a load of emails around all the other professors and psychologists in my department saying, did you know she's from a council estate? Did you know she's been raped? Did you know she was a teenage mom? You know, if someone like her ever becomes a psychologist

she will bring the entire field into disrepute that is word for word in those emails that I saw when I did an SDR to have a look at them when I took action against the university and I just couldn't believe my eyes I was just thinking I thought I was here because I was smart you know like I thought I was here because I was capable and then all of a sudden I was getting everything flipped over on me that actually they didn't want me there anymore once they'd figured out that I wasn't one of them I was and I say this in in underclass say this in the book that the duality was you can't be a victim and also be a successful psychologist these two things can't go together Jess. Well you certainly proved them wrong and just to go back to that situation what is jaw-dropping is that you were in the middle of your GCSEs and after that you went and took your GCSEs didn't

you? Yeah I did I still don't know how I did that and I say that in the book there's some things that I did as a teenager that I don't think I'd have the strength to do now. If this was going on in my life, there's absolutely no way I'd be taking GCSE exams. So yeah, I did. I went and took the GCSEs and I was, oh my gosh, I was absolutely mortified that I didn't get an A or an A star because I was a top student at school, even though I had everything going on. I was drinking a lot and taking a lot of drugs I was still like performing really well somehow um and I never considered that I wouldn't get straight A's at GCSE and I was horrified that I got B's and then I got like two C's but you lost it in myself with everything else going on Jessica it's incredible it's such an incredible achievement but but it's what's interesting to me when I read it was um you go to school A you're turning up and taking your GCSEs with all of this chaos in your life and this violence, sexual violence as well. Teachers were perturbed that you weren't wearing a school uniform. Did anybody ever ask you why you weren't wearing a school uniform? Can you tell us that story now. Yes. So I turned up to it. So what had happened was I'd been kicked out and I wasn't living at home.

And so and also, if I remember rightly, Jase had bleached all of my clothes. He'd put everything I owned in a bath of bleach as a way of keeping me in the house. So I'd like nothing. So I turned up to GCSE and very often I either had all of my uniform, I was in jeans and a T-shirt or a hoodie or something, or sometimes I had had all of my uniform, I was in like jeans and a t-shirt or a hoodie or something or sometimes I had like part of my uniform or maybe trainers on or something like that and it did very much feel to me, I was like you know teachers were getting all het up about the fact that I turned up in skinny jeans and a t-shirt and I was just

thinking what is your problem, you are lucky I'm even here you know that I was and I used to argue with them all the time and sort of say to them how does me turning up to exams in jeans impact anybody else or impact my capability for example but I think that schools I do think they've just become and they and they become over time sort of more and more regimental and the uniform is a way of controlling us you know it always has been it's And the uniform is a way of controlling us. You know, it always has been. It's a way of keeping everybody in line, keeping everyone the same. So there was all this drama around me not wearing school uniform. But nobody actually asked me if anything was going on in my life at all.

So nobody asked that? No. I mean, I had one nice teacher who I'm friends with now, actually. We bumped into each other in Sainsbury's a few years ago. We've been friends ever since. And he was the only guy that paid any attention to me and was actually really kind to me and he was my graphics teacher um and you know he was the only person that would pay me any mind and he would you know whilst I was getting ready for my graphics GCSE he would open his room so I could

catch up on everything because I wasn't doing any work at home I wasn't doing the coursework so he would open up his room at breaks and lunches and after school and encourage me to get it done so I didn't fail. Listen, I could talk to you for ages. Just a couple more points I really want to get through just because obviously you've gone on to have this incredible career. And when you were studying your PhD, you became aware of films that were being shown to young girls

at risk of child sexual exploitation. You started a campaign. I did. Why? Because, actually, the reason that happened was because I spoke to a teenage girl who told me that she had gone home and self-harmed after being shown one of those films. In school, thousands and thousands of children have been shown these films. Some are still being shown these films, although it's not as common after I campaigned against it. And the films contain scenes of rape

and abuse. And they have this really victim blaming undertone of like, you know, if you put yourselves in these situations, these are the things that are going to happen to you. So don't speak to people online or don't go here, don't do this, don't go there. And I didn't see anybody else having a problem with it. You know know I felt like I was a real outsider I was the only person saying does this not seem wrong to you that we're going into schools and between maths and geography children are being shown a video of rape and that you know and they're being told don't get yourself in these situations right off to geography and I started saying to other professionals this seems wrong we shouldn't be doing this we're

traumatizing them and then we're blaming them and then we're just like shipping them off to a lesson and so I started campaigning against that and that got me in a whole host of trouble but they did change it they did and Barnardo's released a press statement about uh 18 months into my campaigning they released a statement to the Times saying that they would retract all use of films and they wouldn't use them again. And Barnardo's then led that change. And I'd worked trying to lobby Barnardo's as a big organisation. I was saying, look, if you take the first step, people won't use these films anymore. And then children won't be being traumatised and blamed for being abused. And they did.

You use the word intersectionalityality there was so much going on in your childhood not only in your life but in the sort of other characters you talk about like like your boyfriend as well uh jace all this week on radio 4 we're talking about uh and two teenage boys um you have one yourself i've got two you've got two um you know what what are the challenges do you think? Because clearly there's a lot of poverty, there's a lot of drug taking, there's a lot of family breakdown. But specifically with boys, what do we need to be addressing right now? I've found, so I've got one 15-year-old, one 13-year-old.

And me and my wife have found that it is about trying to counter the misogyny and the toxic masculinity narratives that they're being fed constantly. I mean, we had to, it was like a daily task in our house to almost counter the Andrew Tate narratives, the rise of incel culture. You know, the things that they just think

are totally normal, you know, that you have to constantly challenge like behaviour, their friends' behaviour, just little things that they might come out with with the way that they treat their friends or things that they think are normal. And we try to encourage them to talk about it all the time. Because, you know, I've been through a lot, right, at the hands of a lot of men, right? I don't want to raise two toxic, abusive men. And I know that I can do everything I can, ultimately, as men.

It is their choice to be who they become. But I want to do the best that I can to raise two safe guys that will go into the world and not do harm. I don't want them to do any harm. I just want to read this text from a listener. Dr. Jess, what an inspiration. We need more people like her in our world, let alone in the world of psychology. She is incredible. That's nice.

Thank you. Have that from the Woman's Hour audience. Brilliant to have you on the programme. The book is Underclass, a memoir. It's out tomorrow. And of course, if you've been affected by anything in this interview, you can find support links on the Woman's Hour website.

And just to tell you that on Friday's programme, Anita will be joined by Catherine Carr, the presenter of the Radio 4 series All About the Boys, and Richard Reeves, president for the American Institute for Boys and Men, in a phone-in on Friday about the realities of being a boy in 2024. Please do listen and get in touch with your experience of boys, bringing them up, and maybe even being one as well.

Jessica Taylor, thank you so much for joining us. Lots of you getting in touch on the programme, on all manner of subjects. We thank you from that on co-parenting. Great to hear from an amazing mum who is supporting her child in a way that works for their family. The other side of the prejudice against women taking this role is the assumption that

dads can't or won't step up they can and if they do everyone benefits thank you for that next guest um also my mother is in her 80s and has a range of medical conditions including heart failure this is about um the rent we were talking about earlier, the rental situation that our first guest Heidi was in. Since her retirement, has suffered coercive controlling mental abuse by her husband. The pressure has been so great for her. She has approached the council for accommodation. She's in a second year on the waiting list, but doesn't meet the council's criteria of tick box priority of one in need. So again, the text number, if you want to get in touch, 84844.

Thank you so much for everybody who has so far. Now let's move on. We all know something about Anne Boleyn, the second wife of Henry VIII, but how much do we know about her sister Mary? Based on Philippa Gregory's internationally bestselling novel, The Other Bowling Girl is a new play at the Chichester Festival Theatre, described as a racy and riveting drama of events that changed the course of English history. It follows Henry's mistress, Mary Boleyn, who is a pawn in her family's lust for power,

and her sister Anne, who, of course, we all know, takes the King's interest. I'm delighted to say I'm joined now by the author, Philippa Gregory, and two women portraying the sisters, Lucy Phelps playing Mary and Freya Mavour, who is playing Anne. Welcome all of you. Hello. Great to have you here.

Philippa Gregory, let's start with you. It's more than 20 years since you wrote the novel and you've been very involved, I understand, with Mike Poulton, who's adapted it for the stage. What fascinates you about this story and this period of history? I think the period is really the sort of the start of what we would recognise as modern England. So a lot of issues that we still struggle with are very much uppermost in the Tudor period. The centralisation of power and wealth in London as the Tudors stopped moving the courts around. The suspicion of foreigners, the anxiety about Europe and European influences, which we still seem to be struggling with today.

And in particularly in the case of this play and this novel, the role of women whose power is always hidden. And what you see is what looks like two women getting their own way by sexual manipulation. But what you don't see is the motivation behind that, which is women's desire for agency and for independence and freedom. Right. So you think you needed to write a different version of that history, the one that we don't really understand? Well, I just published a book called Normal Women, 900 Years of Making History,

which is in a sense an alternative history of England to the ones that we learn in school, which is kings do this and inherit from kings and generals do this and they are, you know, professional soldiers and academics are all men and universities only admit men and everyone doing anything, entrepreneurs, businessmen, highwaymen, pirates, it's all male. And actually, when you look at the historical records, as opposed to looking at the way they're reported what you find is a you know 50 percent of the population are women and they are in positions of power and authority and agency and even in military uh expeditions and definitely in crime so there's a whole sort of untold history which goes underneath this play which is very much about two very

prominent women but one of them hardly known at all Mary Boleyn hardly known at all when I first wrote her. Why were you so fascinated by her? Oh because I think anyone who's in the shadows of great events and gets the inside take on it is always going to be a fascinating person. But Mary is an extraordinary character in her own right. As I say, when I came to research her, she wasn't even in the history books, except as a footnote to one of the reasons why it was difficult for Henry to marry Anne was the question if he had slept with her sister. And so I found her in that context, and I went, this is an extraordinary story of rivalry,

female rivalry for the attention of the king. And then I discovered that her story was not just as being a king's mistress, but that she's a character really seems quite anachronistic to us, but genuinely she turned her back on the court. She turned her back on the court. She turned her back on the high status of being the king's favorite mistress. And she married a man of literally no importance at all. And she made a life for herself as a very modest country woman, far away from the court and from her sister's really increasing destiny and tragedy.

And so when the crash came, Mary Boleyn was the only Boleyn to survive. Yes, she was the last one standing. Let's bring in Lucy. Lucy, you play Mary. What is it like to play this role? And how are you approaching it with everything we've just heard from Philippa? Well, good morning. Our director, Lucy Bailey, calls Mary a quiet radical, which I think is a description I absolutely love and support. I mean, I guess like her sister Anne, and indeed many of the characters in the play, particularly the women,

she's seeking agency and autonomy in a ruthless, deeply religious, superstitious, violent medieval world where ambition, money and power are king. And I guess we meet her at the beginning of the play, entrenched in court life. She's the mistress of Henry VIII, as we've discussed, despite being already married and bears two children by him. But slowly we start to see her questioning the world she finds herself in, pushing back against her family in an attempt to break away and seek a meaningful life and happiness for herself so um yeah it was amazing to sort of try to find the the facts about her but a biographer once said you could write the facts about mary boleyn on the back of a postcard and still have plenty of room left um so using philipa's rich text then coming to the play which mike has adapted from that and bringing all the ideas that the company have brought together in the room.

We were able to kind of create a world and bring new ideas and fresh life to these characters, which are both known and not known. Yes, it's a real education. It's absolutely fascinating. Freya, you play Anne, and of course, lots has been written and written about Anne Boleyn down the years. What is your take on her? She kept Henry waiting for her for seven years, refusing to have sex with him before they were married. It shows dogged determination and also the relationship between the sisters as well. What are you trying to portray through this play?

Yeah, well, I mean mean good morning as well um if if mary is described as a quiet radical and would have to be the loud radical um she's i suppose she's very yeah she's brutal and ruthless and like a politician she just she goes after what she wants um sort of shamelessly uh which for the time I think is very, yeah, it's very impressive and commendable. But the rivalry between the sisters is tough from my sort of modern feminist stance of sort of pitting women against each other.

But the reality of this time and that period, especially within like a privileged family, if you had girls. If you had girls, if you had daughters or women, they would be moved and played as chess pieces. So there's this kind of horrible reality that they live within where they are forced, they're sort of forced into being rivals despite themselves. Was she very impressed with herself? Was she a narcissist? Did she see herself as someone, you know, who should, who was entitled to have that ultimate power? I think she was an

absolute dreamer. And like that, I suppose that does come with a certain amount of narcissism or delusion. But I think she really, you know, she was, the thing that was incredibly impressive about her being so radical is she was reading, at this time, heretical texts, which was a crime back then. But not only was she reading them, she also introduced them to Henry VIII. She kind of, she planted new ideas in his head about politics, about religion, about love, about power. And I think in order to do that, you have to, yeah, you have to have a lot of belief in yourself. But I do think she was a bit of a fantasist, but it's also what drives her and what makes her such a compelling and unique character in history. Well, listen, it's a fascinating, I'd say retelling,

but it sounds like it's being told for the first time. We need more telling of this kind. Thank you so much for joining us. You heard the voices there of Philippa Gregory and the two women portraying Anne and Mary Boleyn, Lucy Phelps and Freya Mather and the other Boleyn girl is a new play

at the Chichester Festival Theatre. That's Woman's Hour. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Helen Lewis, and I have a question. What links family WhatsApp dramas? I flounced off after someone made a particularly ignorant comment. Russian state propaganda.

It's a very good platform for spreading all this pro-Putin position. And a woman who married an AI. 100% I would never go back to humans ever, ever again. No idea? Well, they're all examples of how instant messaging has changed the world. Find out more by joining me for my new BBC Radio 4 series, Helen Lewis Has Left the Chat. Subscribe to Helen Lewis Has Left the Chat on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.