Woman's Hour - Codebreaking Sisters, Food and Climate Change, How to Handle Conflict

Episode Date: August 14, 2020

To mark VJ Day 75 we’ll be speaking to two sisters, Patricia and Jean Owtram whose father was a prisoner of war in the Far East. At the time both sisters were serving their country. They are the last two living sisters to have signed the official secrets act in WW2. Patricia received a Legion of Honour for her interception of enigma code for Bletchley park as a WREN tapping into German shipping radio while Jean was a code & cipher officer in Egypt and Italy supporting secret agents and partisans fighting the Nazis. Now aged 97 & 94 they have collaborated on a book, Codebreaking Sisters, Our Secret War. They acknowledge that the war changed their lives “instead of just marrying, I went to university and then journalism before being a BBC TV producer” remembers Pat. And Jean says: “Girls from our class were destined to live a very narrow existence, focused on husband and children. The war gave us broader horizons and bigger adventures. I believe we have both been more useful to the world because of it.” How can you choose a planet-friendly sandwich? And how bad is it for an apple to travel from the other side of the world to get to your fruit bowl? Professor Sarah Bridle is part astrophysicist, part food-enthusiast, who wanted to know the environmental cost of her lunch. Much of the data was complex – so she’s simplified it in her book Food and Climate Change: Without the Hot Air which includes the greenhouse gases created by growing, harvesting, transporting and cooking what we eat, as well as the food itself. She’d like to see labelling of air-freighted foods in supermarkets to give consumers a better understanding of the impact of our diet on the planet. Throughout the summer, Woman’s Hour is offering ‘How To’ guides for some of life’s biggest questions. Today, we explore the best way to handle conflict and tension – whether it’s at home, with friends and family, at work or in public. What’s the best way to get your point across without letting your emotions overwhelm you? Ama Afrifa-Tchie is the Head of Culture & Wellbeing at Mental Health First Aid England. Charly Lester is a dating expert and freelance journalist. Jessamy Hibberd is a chartered clinical psychologist.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to The Woman's Hour podcast for Friday the 14th of August. Good morning. Throughout the summer we've featured a series of how-to guides and today it's how to handle conflict and tension. What's the best way to get to your point across with family, colleagues or in the queue at the supermarket without losing your cool? It can take two hours to bake a potato in an oven and 10 minutes in a microwave. Which method does most damage to the planet? Professor Sally Bridle's book analyzes food and its contribution to climate

change. And the serial, the final episode of Bird in the Hand. Tomorrow is the 75th anniversary of VJ Day. The 15th of August 1945 saw the surrender of Japan and the final end of the Second World War. It was a very significant day for two sisters from Lancashire whose father had been a prisoner of war for three years in the Japanese camp at Junkai. Prisoners there were forced into the building of the infamous Burma Railway. He was somewhat surprised when he came home to find his two daughters had been serving their country during the war.

They are Patricia and Jean Outram, and the book about their wartime exploits is Code-Breaking Sisters, Our Secret War. Patricia and Jean, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Jean, let me start with you. How was your father when he got home? Well, as you can imagine, we were all a bit nervous about

any change that might have taken place with him and how he would be reacting to it. And he came back at the end of the war. We took care that my sister and I were with our mother at the family home when he came. And I think we were all pretty tense but in fact when he arrived he was so much himself it was just just getting our father back again and we laughed and we talked and it was such a happy day. What was his of course, when he left, Jean was at boarding school. I was doing a sort of junior secretarial job. And he had no idea while he was a prisoner that we had gone into the women's services. Jean went into the Fanny's and I went into the Wren's. So I think we changed a good deal.

And he perhaps had to get used to the idea that we were young women rather than schoolgirls. Jean, it's slightly surprising to read in the book that you both seemed ever so slightly excited when war broke out. You were, of course, both very young teenagers when it happened. Why did it give you a sense of excitement? Well, I hesitate to say it now, but I was very worried it was going to finish and all be over before I could actually get into it. And I was going to miss this wonderful opportunity of being an adult and doing something for my country.

And it was all very exciting. But in fact, of course, it went on much longer than we had thought from that first year. Pat, as you said, you both managed to join the war effort. But interestingly, you spoke German, which was obviously very useful. How had that come about, fluency in German? Well, that happened because we were quite a big family and we lived with our grandfather in his house in the countryside in Lancashire. In the late 1930s, he could not get a cook or a housemaid and he discovered an agency that would find jobs for refugee Jewish women from Austria who would take jobs as cooks or housemates,

even if they'd never done it before. So we had an Austrian cook when we were growing up. And as they didn't speak much English when they came, I did quite a lot of talking with them in the evenings at home. There was nothing else really to do in wartime in the country. So by the time I joined the Wrens, I was able to put down conversational German. And that was exactly what they happened to be looking for because they wanted to train girls from reliable families

as interceptors of German naval radio traffic. Now, as you say, eventually you did join the Wrens, but you had turned down the offer of a job at Bletchley Park. Why did you turn that down? Yes, well, I had a godmother married to somebody in the Foreign Office who wrote to my mother at the beginning of the war with a crowd of jolly girls. Well, I had decided I was going to join the Wrens and, if anything, be with a crowd of jolly sailors and no way stuck in the countryside with lots of foreign office secretaries. So I got my mother to send a telegram to my aunt, and I was away from home, sent a telegraph as soon as possible to my mother

to say, hate crowds, jolly girls. And the nice man in the telegraph office said he also hated crowds, jolly girls. So that was the end of Bletchley Park. Jean, obviously you were that little bit younger. How did you come to join the Fannies, the first aid nursing yeomanry? Well, of course, I thought Pat was doing an interesting job, which she was at the time. But when I applied, they only wanted to do cooks.

And my skills as a cook have never been very great and besides I didn't want to be a cook so I had to explore around and find out what else was going on and somebody introduced me to the Fanny's and I found that not only did they do interesting secret work but they also went overseas and at at the age of 18, and I'd never been out of England apart from Scotland in my life. And I said, no, this is the one I'm going to join and did. Now, crosswords turned out to be rather significant at the interview. What happened there? To me? Yes. Crosswords. Yes. Well, because I was doing doing crossword puzzles and I was quite good at doing them, but I had no idea that of course this would be a skill that you could use in secret work. And

as a result of that, I was given a very much more interesting job than I would otherwise have had, working with the underground movements, messages being sent to us from Europe. Now, Pat, you both obviously had to sign the Official Secrets Act. How was that for both of you, that you realised you could never speak to anybody about what you were up to? Well, of course, we took the Official Secrets Act as

seriously as everybody else does. I finished the General Wren training and before I started a short special course in intercepting German ships radio, we all had to sign the Official Secrets Act and realise that probably for the rest of our lives we would never be able to tell anybody, including our families, what we actually did. So it was years and years after the war, I think the 1970s, when all those books started coming out like ultra, that I finally said, by the way gene what were you actually doing in cairo and she told me what were you actually doing in cairo gene

yes you might well ask because i was rather surprised myself but i could although i was 18 I still had to have parental permission to go overseas and so as my father was a POW in the Far East my mother had to give it to me which she did which was great help and the Fennies then put me aboard a ship

we sailed out of Liverpool I had no idea where we were going we turned left went towards America turned left went south and next thing we were in the Mediterranean.

And I worked in Cairo and then in Italy, southern Italy, for the rest of the war. But it was very exciting, 18. But how would you describe the work that you were actually doing there? Well, we were doing our correspondence with our underground movements in Southern Europe, where we had agents working in Greece and other parts of Southern Europe. And we were decoding the material they were sending us and passing it on to the Foreign Office in London. And so we were very much involved with the war in Southern Europe. Pat, I know at one stage you learned to use a Sten gun.

Why? Well, this was when I was stationed at a station called Abbotscliff, which was a very isolated house on a cliff about three miles west of Dover. And there was always a bit of a chance that the Germans might try some sort of coastal raid. And we had armed police guarding this station. We were the only station that did have an armed guard. And they had these lightweight stem guns. And some of us thought, well, suppose the Germans did land,

it would be rather nice to know how you used a stem gun. So we persuaded them to show us how to, you had to take it apart and put it together again and then we allowed to fire at a little target in a field across the road. So we got quite good at stem gun practice. So I think maybe I could still remember. I'm not quite sure I'd remember how to take a stem gun apart.

But it must be rather unusual acquisition for old ladies in Chiswick to know how to use a stem gun. And you never fired it in anger, I presume? Not in anger, but I was allowed to shoot at little targets. Jean, did your parents ever know what you'd been up to in the war? I don't think so. But to be quite honest about this, we kept a secret all right. But by the end of the war, we were horrified to find people were talking about what they'd done. We kept our secret very carefully.

But by that time, of course, we were all moving on at peacetime. And it was no longer so interesting. I don't think my parents were interested enough. But they've got other things to think over this time. Pat, how come you managed to go to university when you'd been told before the war it was really not for girls? Yes, our parents explained to Jean and me before the war that because our younger brother was going to Oxford to

an expensive college, there wouldn't be any spare cash for us to go to university, so we could choose between domestic science or secretarial work. And we both chose secretarial work. But if you'd been in the forces and it had interrupted your education and by a bit of a stretch they decided this applied to me because although I'd left school I wasn't able to sort of carry on with the training I would have been doing that the state would then pay for you to go to university but I wasn't quite sure this grant was going to come through, but I discovered St Andrews University only charged £9 a term, or £21 a year, for tuition.

And I thought even if it came to the worst, the family could rate this up. So after the war, I did go to St Andrews. They gave me a research grant to Oxford, and the English-speaking union gave me an exchange scholarship for a year at Harvard Graduate School. So having been told I couldn't go to any university, I actually went to three top universities. Jean, what about you after the war? What did you decide to do?

Well, during the war, I'd been with the Fannys, and they went overseas, and I had been with them when we were in North Africa, and then in Italy for the last part of the war, and we could go over there again. And I'd got wanderlust, and I wanted to travel. So I was looking for jobs. I would be a secretary to anybody who would take me overseas. I'd do any job. And in fact, that's what I did. I was secretary to Fitzroy McLean, who was our local MP. But he was going back to Italy, working out there. I rang him up on Saturday morning and said, I hear you're going to Italy. Do you want a secretary? Yes, he said, meet me at Lancaster Station on Monday. And so then I went abroad with him and been going off and on pretty well ever since.

So, Pat, what would your lives have been if it hadn't been for the war? Well, what we understood was planned for us was that we would do either domestic science or secretarial course, and we chose secretarial. We'd do some little job as somebody's secretary for a year or two until we had met a suitable young man, and we would then get married and become wives and mothers and we would be supported by our husband for the rest of our lives. There wasn't really any prospect of a career. You did, Jean, both marry but much later in life?

Why did you leave it so late? Well, I met quite a lot of people, of course, as a result of going abroad and travelling with various people. And it wasn't until I think I was 30, I can't remember exactly, that I met somebody who I really did want to marry. And we duly got married and continued to travel quite a lot. But the University at Lancaster was just opening and I got a job there and my husband was also on the staff of the university and so we continued to live up in the north of England as I had come before.

Jean Outram and Patricia Outram, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you both. Thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning and I hope you don't have too busy a rest of the day. Thank you both very much. Now still to come in today's programme, the next in our summer series of how-to guides. Today is how to handle conflict and tension at home, at work or in public.

And the serial, the final episode of Bird in the Hand. Now, I was not thinking about climate change when I barbecued a steak last night, baked a potato in the oven and tossed a green salad in a wooden salad bowl. Maybe I should have because Professor Sarah Bridle's book, Food and Climate Change, says a quarter of greenhouse gas emissions come from food and beef is the worst offender. The two hours the potato spent in the oven was far worse for the climate than if I'd given it 10 minutes in the microwave and I should have been asking myself why a tree had to be chopped down to make me a fancy salad bowl. Professor Bridle is an astrophysicist. What inspired her to focus on food?

I did about 20 years of research in astrophysics and after that I finished a big project and my kids started at school. And I started to think about the next 20 years and I imagined them saying to me when they were grown ups, what did you do about climate change, mummy? And me saying, I looked at the stars and I kind of felt like I probably needed to do a bit more than that. So what sort of things did you start taking into account when you were thinking about food and climate change? and so we really need to change that number but at the same time that number includes as you say things like transport packaging but also fertilizers used on the farm and emissions from animals burping for example or manure and all these pieces including and how it gets to our houses and how we use it at home. So you came up with a goal of halving the emissions of our food from

six kilograms of carbon dioxide to three kilograms. How achievable is that for all of us? Well, I think for me, the really good news is that because different foods cause really different amounts of greenhouse gas emissions, there's a lot we can do about it. So, I mean, if all foods caused about the same greenhouse gas emissions, we'd be a bit stuck because we all need to eat. So, for example, if we take an eight ounce steak and chips, compare that to a jacket potato with beans, then it's more than a factor of 20 different in terms of the amount of greenhouse gas emissions. So, there's a lot we can do by changing what we eat and also how food is produced.

In the book, I tried to put together an example, low emissions day of food. I managed to get it down to two kilos of greenhouse gas emissions per person. So that was a factor of three reduction. I'm not a chef, so I'm not proposing that that exact menu is what everyone eats. But what I hope is that with these sorts of tools, then, you know, chefs, for example, and people writing recipe books, maybe could start

to do some of these calculations. And those people who are great at putting together new recipes and new menus could help us out here. What was in that day's food that had such low emissions? Well, there was quite a bit of beans and pulses. There was a chickpea tikka masala instead of a chicken tikka masala there for a curry. And then there was reducing the amounts of animal products in the diet and also looking out for air freighted food and trying to make sure that it was not coming by air. What does this mean then for meat eaters says one well yeah so really when I started going into this about four years ago then I was looking online to find out what to eat and finding you know this advice of vegetarian vegan and for me the whole point of the book and my sort of geekiness was to go a bit

beyond that and to really say well you know you know, what is it specifically that I, you know, different emissions from different foods. And it is true that for most people, the biggest climate impacts will come from the animal products they're eating. So reducing the amount of those and eating more plant-based foods like veggies and beans will reduce the climate impact. But this is not about telling people what to do. It's really providing information so people can then pick and choose which things they want to do. It's really providing information so people can then pick and choose which things they want to do, taking into account a whole load of other things like cost and convenience and taste that are going to fit in with their lives. What better use could land be put to if less of it was used by animals?

Yeah, so this is really, I think, really exciting. It turns out that the foods that cause the most greenhouse gas emissions also tend to use the most land. And yet, most of the climate solutions, for example, forests, are the things that use the most land. So if we can actually reduce the greenhouse gas emissions of our foods, we'll also free up a whole load of land. I mean, just to take a really extreme example, if the whole world went vegan, then we'd actually free up three quarters of the land currently used for producing food. And we could use that, for example, to grow forests, which would then compensate for the greenhouse gas emissions of the food that we do eat. What were the biggest surprises you found when you started to look at this topic? I think bringing apples from New Zealand rather surprised you. Yeah, I mean, I spent a lot of time in the supermarket, you know, choosing which things to eat.

And when you see the country of origin, you're kind of like panicking if it's a long way away. But actually, if you think about an apple, say you compare an apple brought by truck from the other side of a small country like the UK, and compare that to apples that are shipped from the other side of a small country like the UK and compare that to apples that are shipped from the other side of the world like New Zealand to the UK. Turns out that the climate change impact of either of those is pretty small. For the apple that comes by boat, the impact on the climate from the transport is actually still less or about the same, slightly less than the impact of producing the apple itself. So that itself isn't something to get particularly worried about. It's when things come by air that the emissions really start to add up. And I think that's really tough for us as consumers,

because when I go to the supermarket, I can't tell which things came by air and which things came by boat. So should there be a sticker on an apple that says flown or not flown? I'd love to see that. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, I'd love to see stickers on all food saying the climate impacts. That's quite hard work. We need to give a lot of support and financial support to food producers to achieve that. But just putting a sticker saying whether something came by air or not, that should be doable. So how useful to your aim is the local vegetable box, which I suspect a lot of people have been using during lockdown? Well, there's been a huge surge in demand for veg boxes. And veg boxes are great for a lot of reasons, not all of them related to the climate. But as you know, in a veg box, you get what's available at the time often, and that's less

convenient in some ways. But it's also fantastic for reducing food waste because everything that's picked on the farm ends up in your homes. And it also reduces transport and packaging. But for me, the best thing is to learn what grows in my area at this time of year. I don't have to worry that it might come by air. I'm eating more vegetables, which, you know which is healthier. And also we're helping to support local food production, which is also good for the longer term if we think about adapting to climate change. So what's in your box this week? Well, the most challenging thing I think this week is the fennel. We've not had that for a while. So I'm going to try dipping it in some hummus for lunch actually today. So we're going to see how

that goes. I'm not sure if it's going to work. I know it's nice with olive oil and some vinegar and dressing. So we might do that instead. Now cheese doesn't do too well in your book. Why? Well, I was a bit disappointed. Yeah, to see that cheese doesn't do so well. It actually causes more emissions than some meats. So you know, that's often a bit of a surprise to people. For example, if you were a meat eater that only ate chicken and you substituted all that chicken with cheese, you'd actually be increasing your climate impact. Depends obviously on how it's produced, but on average, those are the numbers. So what can we do about that? Well, we can not only just replace one food with another food, but we can

also look at the quantity. For example, in the book, I show a calculation for a cheese sandwich where the amount of cheese is reduced, say from two medium slices to one thin slice, look at the quantity. For example, in the book, I show a calculation for a cheese sandwich, where the amount of cheese is reduced, say from two medium slices to one thin slice. And because the bread doesn't really cause a lot of climate impact and adding pickle, for example, doesn't really add a lot of climate impact, then you can halve the emissions of your sandwich, even though it's still a cheese sandwich. So for some people, that might be a better approach than giving up foods entirely how much has your knowledge as a result of your research had an impact on how you and your family prepare food as well as choose what to eat well i have to admit i i got a bit obsessive about food

waste you know if you get food on your plate then you've got to eat it up or at least remember to take a bit less next time. So that definitely has been a thing in our family. And I love experimenting with new foods. So I have to admit, if there's a recipe now, which the kids haven't had before, they'll be like, where's the lentils in this, mummy? My latest thing is chickpea and oat and chocolate chip biscuits.

But I think the chocolate chips have distracted anyone from asking too much about what else is in them so far. But also things like tin cans. So I used to be worried about eating stuff from cans because of all the packaging. But actually, it's fully recyclable. And if we can use clean energy to do that processing, then that's actually relatively good and it reduces waste. Really convenient way to eat more beans and pulses, like chickpeas and lentils as well. And even things like grapefruits, really great with some lentils and a bit of olive oil as a store-covered way of really getting some great nutrition in there.

And you don't switch your oven on to warm it up, do you? I was shocked actually about how much an oven uses. I give this story in the book of, you know, when I was first heard about this, I was very proud. I went vegan, I put the oven on for two hours to cook my jacket potato, feeling very smug. But actually putting that oven on to cook one jacket potato for two hours

causes a whole lot more emissions than other things that would have been, you know, non-vegan. So definitely reducing oven usage and trying to cook things, for example, in the microwave or at least partially in the microwave and only putting the oven on for the last bit definitely makes a big difference if you don't have clean energy in your electricity supply what are you having for lunch today well we're going to try this fennel with hummus and we've got some carrots for the veg box and a courgette from the veg box and that always goes down well with a bit of hummus so yeah looking forward to that. I was talking to

Professor Sarah Bridle and the book is called Food and Climate Change Without the Hot Air. Now we all know how difficult it can be to keep your hair on when conflict starts to raise its head. It might be around at home with the children or a partner. It might be at work when resentment and jealousy can build up, or it could even happen in a supermarket queue when these days someone fails to keep their distance. What's the best way to get your point across without becoming overwhelmed by anger and bad temper? Well, I'm joined by Amma Afrifa Chee, who's the Head of Culture and Wellbeing at Mental Health First Aid England, Charlie Lester, who's a journalist and specialises in dating,

and Dr. Jessamy Hibbard is a Chartered Clinical Psychologist. Jessica, what would you say are the most common causes of conflict? I think there are three common causes. So number one, something that's happened. Two, poor communication. And three, it can be helpful to think about what's going on in your life. So with the first, it could be daily aggravations that build up, or a disagreement, or a clash of opinion, or some of the things that you just mentioned um but i think number two is what i most commonly see so a misunderstanding where there's been poor communication because when emotions are high it's easy to jump to the wrong conclusions about what's going on or to ascribe extreme emotions and motives to the other person that might not be there and i think then you end

up mentally rehearsing an argument in your head when you don't have all the facts. And so you have to be careful of the expectations you're putting on other people. And just because they don't do things the same way as you, it doesn't mean they're kind of intentionally meaning to annoy you or that it's a personal slight. And then for the third one, I think that if tension or conflict is arising a lot in your life, it's important to look at what's going on for you. Because when you're feeling good, these types of problems don't tend to happen so much whereas if you're more sleep deprived or stressed or you've got less capacity it's more likely to happen and I think often at these times we can slip into blaming others almost like a defense mechanism everyone else is wrong and if they just got it right it would all be okay. Emma, what would you say are the most common causes? I think actually it's a different perspective when you look at it in the workplace.

I think the most common cause is when we look at it in the workplace is you've got personality differences happening. You know, there might be some workplace behaviours regarded by some colleagues as irritable and some acceptable. You know, when we're looking at it from a workplace, it's very much from a lens of, well, unmet needs, you know, perceived inequities in resources, and that could pan out in terms of work allocation, you know, job duties, et cetera. Hello, Amma. Oh, dear.

I think we might have lost you. will endeavor to get you back and charlie are you there hi jenny yeah i'm here what would you say are the most common causes of conflict well so i think from sort of with a dating and relationship view on things i think something quite interesting is um often we put place far higher expectations on those closest to us um and also then respond in a different way to the ways that we might if that was someone you know that we were talking to at work for example um you know we've got these higher expectations and then we don't necessarily communicate them in the same way and so i think going back what to the what the earlier guest said about kind of not necessarily expecting someone else to respond in the same way that you do to something because we're all different and we do all respond in

different ways and I think it's it's learning to understand how your partner responds to things that there is something I know you're interested in called attachment theory which I really hadn't heard much about in the past how does that work in these kind of relationships with with people that you're really close to yeah so there's three types of attachment um avoidant anxious and secure and they reckon that about 50 people are secure and then the other 50 percent are divided between anxious and avoidant and it's it's meant to stem from your childhood experiences but it can also be affected by your previous relationships. One of the things that will quite often happen in a

relationship is that an avoidant person will pair up with an anxious person and they're almost like polar opposites so an anxious person, the way that they respond to stuff, they will seek more and more attention and affection. And in doing so, they quite often drive the avoidant person away. So kind of an example of that might be text messaging. And as an anxious person, you might expect your partner to respond immediately to text messages. And when they don't, you flood them with a series of text messages. And the avoidant person's reaction to that will be to back further and further away. So they actually end up aggravating each other and kind of causing issues where there really isn't an issue in the first place. I think you had an example of a husband and wife who had exactly that problem.

How did they resolve it? So I love this one. What they did was they, it was the husband who was avoidant and he acknowledged that while he thought about his wife during the day, his job was just so busy that he didn't have the time to properly respond to text messages she was sending. And when he didn't respond, she thought that that meant that he didn't love her and he wasn't thinking about her. So the compromise, when they finally talked about it, the compromise they came up with was that he had some pre-written text messages on his phone that when he thought of her he would just send them to her so that it you know became a far less of a burden on him during his work day but then she still felt loved and needed and and obviously the way that they came to that was by actually sitting down and saying look

you do this and it makes me feel this way and you know if you are if you have completely different attachment styles you might not understand how your behavior makes the other person feel until you have that really frank conversation. Amma I think we've got you back we're not going to get angry or lose lose our temper about the lines that don't work properly um when people are at work Ama, how can bosses and workers best approach conflict that might occur between them? if it's peer on peer conflict, you know, grab a coffee, have and have that conversation as to what the issues are you're both facing and try and resolve it that way. If that can't happen, then it's very much thinking about how can you form, have that conversations through either mediation. So someone else having that conversation on your behalf that is trusted on both parties, but also can articulate what

you're trying to say. Because I think sometimes you can get very much overwhelmed in the emotional part, which is okay, because we are all human and we are entitled to our emotions. But I think when you're wanting to have a conversation, there has to be an element of not just emotions, but also the logical perspective. I also think for bosses perspective, you have to build a good relationship and we know that in workplaces not everybody has a great relationship with their boss so again I think and it's also that kind of fear factor of if I say something this might jeopardize my opportunities for promotion or getting really good work and it does happen in the workplace because you have that hierarchical kind of level of power.

So I would kind of recommend for people that if they don't have a good working relationship, again, it's actually finding out who can mediate on your behalf to get your point across or to bring you both into a room where you can have a conversation and have good, clear outcomes as to how you're going to progress

to see how you can resolve the conflict. I think the last resort you'd want to end up doing is having a grievance or going through it the you know the official channels but if that's needed then it's needed but i think resolving it or trying to resolve it as soon as possible is the optimal is the outcome you would want to achieve just me what what do you give as advice on the best way of just staying calm when there is a disagreement? How do you stop your heart pounding, your stomach churning, your head feeling as if it's going to blow up? I think it can be very hard in the moment. So often it's better to walk away for a bit and let things calm down.

Because when you're in that mood, it's almost to walk away for a bit and let things calm down because when you're in that mood it's almost like you're wearing blinkers you can only see your point of view any memories related to that emotional surface the feelings are amplified and also your thoughts are colored by it too but I think it's also trying to listen if you can and accepting that the other person's perspective is different but not wrong and that it's not about trying to attack or determine, you know, who's in the right, it's more about trying to resolve it and find common ground and build back trust again. And Charlie, a similar sort of question, when it's someone you're really, really close to, how do you recommend approaching an argument a disagreement you know

one of you hasn't done the washing up one of you hasn't taken the bins out and it keeps on happening what do you do about it i think one of the key things is to work out what the root of the problem is too and to try and do that in that unemotional state so you know when when you've taken a few steps away from it a little bit of time try and work that in that unemotional state. So, you know, when you've taken a few steps away from it in a little bit of time, try and work out actually what the problem is that you're arguing over, particularly if it comes up multiple times. I mean, I think in a relationship,

if the reason that you are arguing is related to something like values or beliefs or morals, then maybe that's something larger than, you know, that you do need to either overcome or maybe that will become a real problem. But if it is just tiny niggles and it's more a case of that person is the closest person to you and lots of other stuff is building up and you're venting at them then I think trying to take the time to appreciate that and sort of step away from it and you know really work out what you need to say to them and what you

don't because I think quite often um the nature of personal relationships is you end up having these arguments as of midnight or one in the morning when you're tired and all the nature of personal relationships is you end up having these arguments at midnight or one in the morning when you're tired and all the rest of the stress of your day is built up and actually you end up arguing you know about the tiniest thing but all of the motivations you know behind it are actually other things that aren't completely unrelated to the bin for example. What if it is about morals or politics and you know you develop a relationship with someone you're hopelessly in love when you first meet and then you live together for a long time and then you discover that there are things that you just can't agree about how do you resolve that I think you have to be realistic and realize that there's sometimes things that you can't resolve

and sometimes there are things where you just have to agree to disagree and sometimes maybe agreeing to disagree isn't isn't possible you know there's a reason that divorces happen there's a reason that people break up um and so i think it's it's understanding that yet conflict is a normal part of life but actually where you know where on that scale of conflict is the issue and how important is it to you? What about at work when there is such a disagreement about, I don't know, policy or politics or whatever that you can't resolve? Where do you go with that? That's a good question. And I think when you're talking about sort of office politics it is quite

an a difficult um i guess road to navigate i think that's when what is the next best solution because obviously if that is if there is no solution or resolution in that conflict what then needs to happen is to think about what is best for the team, the individual or individuals that are actually having that impact in the conflict. So I think it's very much looking at other options, maybe if that individual could work on a different project, probably be seconded to another team or a different team. But also, I think there's very much around how you support all the parties that are at play in terms of if it's a manager that's involved or a boss involved what kind of coaching do they need to acquire to actually handle conflict resolution better but um it's you know if it's an conflict is inevitable and if it can't be resolved it's what is the best solution for all parties involved so that they don't feel slighted or that they don't feel that their voices have not been heard or that they're not important. And it is really difficult depending on the size of the organization and how far the conflict has gone in terms of what the end result is.

But I think that there's always the best solution with that being. And that best solution is actually involving those in the conflict as well to say, OK, this has not been resolved. Where do we go from here? What is the best? What's the best next step for you or for the team to then have that move forward as opposed to just keep you know stay there and just kind of sweep it on the carpet because what will happen is if you have an individual that feels that they have not had a fair treatment in whatever the outcome of mediation or whatever it is they are it's going to impact their performance,

it's going to impact the way that they interact with the rest of the team, and then you have that rippling effect that carries on. So I think it's best place to think about what's the next best solution for the individuals involved, and actually how do you make sure that even though someone is removed from a team, that they're not necessarily isolated or segregated in any shape or form. I suspect increasingly there are arguments and uncomfortable discussions that occur on the Internet using text or email. How good an idea is that to have an argument online?

I suppose the trouble with it being online is that you're missing all of those kind of cues that you get from a face-to-face meeting and you're missing the tone. And it can be really easy to misunderstand or misinterpret what's being said. And I suppose the next level on from emails and texts is also on social media, where people are in a social vacuum with no mutual friends to avoid alienating, you know, kind of none of the social pressures to keep things in check. So with each level, you lose a bit more of the kind of personal interaction you'd get from being with somebody. And also the ability to kind of settle things down or calm them down that you get from being with somebody too. So I think it's always much better to avoid doing those kind of things online or texting and to speak it through where possible. I was talking to Dr. Jessamy Hibbard, Charlie Lester and Ama Afrifa Chi. We've had lots of response to the interview with the sisters, the Outram sisters.

And this one came from Elizabeth Moore, who said, What an inspiring and utterly delightful interview with the two highly intelligent, energetic, interesting and articulate Outroom Sisters. Such a treat to listen to two women who've led amazing and innovative lives, been such assets to our country in time of war, when it was unusual for women to work in such important posts, and still go on to marry, etc. They're an example to us all with their calm, bright, and polite attitude to life, a joy. Thank you for finding them. Let's hear from more

similar women. Brilliant. We've also had a lot of response to the discussion about how to handle conflict, including an anonymous email which was called Resolving Conflict, Small Steps. My brother and sister haven't spoken for more than two years. They fell out after a disagreement over a small thing, but very harsh words and loud voices were used. Since lockdown, I had to set up a WhatsApp group between the three of us as I care for our mother, who lives near me but has mild dementia.

They've actually started communicating with each other about their kids etc. It's a small step but it's lovely to see them chatting normally even if not face to face. Sarah had some advice to add on keeping your cool in an argument. She says a great mantra is biff. If you have something to express, then try to keep it brief, informative, factual and firm. And Jenny Cooper at the National Education Union said, as a trades union representative, I would like listeners to be informed that unions always seek to resolve conflict in the workplace. We agree with your guests that workers should always attempt to resolve the conflict informally first.

But where difficulties arise, the union gives you a place to go to to share your legitimate concerns, take action and have your voice heard. And then from Michael Rosen, with whom Radio 4 listeners are very familiar, who's now, of course, improving after his awful time with COVID-19. He says, my grandparents separated over politics. In Brockton, Massachusetts, grandfather stayed with two of the children. Grandmother came to England with the three others. Thank you for all your contributions this morning. Do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour at four o'clock

when you can hear about the elite British sportswomen's survey, Catholic guilt and teenage sexuality in Cara Maines' film Yes God Yes, the lead-up to the election in Belarus and the woman who challenged the president and Femtech products designed for women. Join me tomorrow. Until then. Bye bye. Hello, it's me, Greg Jenner, the bloke from that funny history podcast. You're dead to me. Big news. We are back once again, combining the talents of comedians and expert historians as we explore stuff like ancient Egyptian pyramids,

Genghis Khan and 19th century vampire literature. Search for You're Dead to Me on the BBC Sounds app. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.