Woman's Hour - Coleen Rooney, Shadow Chancellor, Rachel Reeves MP, Poet Becky Hemsley.

Episode Date: October 18, 2023

If the current polls are to be believed the next chancellor of the exchequer could be a woman. That woman would be Rachel Reeves, the current shadow chancellor and the MP for Leeds West. Originally from Lewisham, South London, she attended a state school, made it to Oxford University then into the world of finance working as an economist for the Bank of England. Labour have yet to announce their manifesto and detailed costed policies to put to the electorate, but we can examine the philosophy behind Labour’s economic thinking because Rachel has just published her latest book, The Women Who made Modern Economics, and hear how they have influenced her own thinking. In October 2019, Coleen Rooney posted on social media that she had been concerned by articles appearing in newspapers that could only have come from stories on her private Instagram account. So she laid a trap for the account she suspected of the leak, and then told the world ‘It was…Rebekah Vardy’s account’. Immediately dubbed ‘Wagatha Christie’ - Rebekah Vardy, who continues to deny she was the source of those stories, sued Coleen for libel. A High Court judge ruled in Coleen Rooney’s favour last year and she is now putting her side of the story in a documentary series on Disney Plus called Coleen Rooney: The Real Wagatha Story. She speaks to Emma Barnett in a radio exclusive interview. British poet Becky Hemsley has self-published four collections of her work and has been top of the Amazon poetry chart twice now - most recently around International Women's Day last March. Originally a primary school teacher, she now focuses solely on her poetry. She joins Emma to explain why and to perform some of her poetry live.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engineer: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. With the news that hundreds of Palestinians are dead, according to health officials in Gaza, after a huge blast at a hospital in Gaza City, I'll be joined by one of the most senior women in the Labour Party and hoping to be this country's first female chancellor, Rachel Reeves, to understand political reaction closer to home. She'll also be making her

case about the specific influence women can have on a country's political and, crucially for her role, economic decision-making. Also on today's programme, we hear from a woman who has been described in many ways, including as a wag, and also most recently, Wagatha Christie. But we rarely hear from the woman herself in her own words. In a radio interview exclusive, Colleen Rooney is on Woman's Hour today and opens up about how she really found being taken to court by Rebecca Vardy in that libel trial. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to drop out of the legal battle so many times. You do?

Yeah, it got to a point where I was just, I would cry and cry and I just didn't want it to get, and that's not me. I would like to say I am quite a strong-willed, strong woman. However, it was just mentally just draining. And I've got four boys, even though I was physically there looking after them, mentally I just wasn't there. I was just constantly thinking about this court case. Colleen Rooney also shares the surprising job she would have done if she'd finished her education and not found herself on the path

she was on with Wayne Rooney, with paparazzi following her every move from the age of 16. And there's also a confession about her true feelings on football. All that to come. Plus, I can promise you some poetry towards the end of the programme today to think about the world

perhaps in a slightly different way and certainly from the view of someone who gave up their day job to now make their living from the power of words. But first, hundreds of Palestinians have been killed after an explosion at a hospital in Gaza, according to health officials there. Hamas has blamed it on an Israeli airstrike, but the Israeli military say the blast was caused by rockets misfired by another group, Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The hospital had been filled with civilians who were seeking shelter, as well as patients. The huge blast has been met with global condemnation, including from politicians here at home.

The Foreign Secretary, James Cleverley, has tweeted, The destruction of Al-Ahli Hospital is a devastating loss of human life. The UK has been clear, the protection of civilian life must come first. The UK will work with our allies to find out what has happened and protect innocent civilians in Gaza. And last night, the Labour leader, Sakhir Starmer, tweeted, the scenes of hundreds killed at Al-Akhli Hospital in Gaza are absolutely devastating and cannot be justified.

International law must be upheld. Hospitals and civilian lives must be protected. International law must be upheld. But the Labour leadership is under increasing pressure over its position on the conflict, which so far has been aligned to the government. I'm now joined in the studio by Sir Keir Starmer's right-hand woman, the Shadow Chancellor, Rachel Reeves. And good morning, Rachel. I should just say, it is your new book in the study of female economists and thinkers that originally had you coming here on the programme today. And we will get to that. But in light of one of Labour's councillors, in fact, the first Arab Muslim woman to be elected to the Manchester City Council resigning this week over Labour's

position on Israel, and a meeting that's now been reported quite widely in the press between many of your council leaders and the shadow foreign secretary this week. Has Labour's position changed in light of the explosion last night? Well all of us have seen pictures of what happened at that hospital in Gaza City can't help but be moved by heartbreaking pictures of children, families losing their lives. As a parent myself, you know, the one place you would feel you should be safe is in a hospital. And of course, the people there last night were not safe and many, many lost their lives. And there was clearly a humanitarian crisis unfolding with a lack of food and fuel and water in Gaza, because this conflict was caused by Hamas terrorists butchering and murdering Israeli citizens, men, women and children.

But the people of Palestine, the people of Gaza are not Hamas and they should not be suffering the way they are now. What are the issues that you understand then from those I've outlined who aren't happy with the Labour leadership to the point of resigning? It's not just the individual woman I mentioned there. There are others too this week. What is it that they're unhappy about from what you have just said? Well, you'd have to ask them that question. Obviously, there's feedback coming to you.

That's what I meant. And what do you understand about Labour's position that perhaps some would like to change? I'm not going to put words into the mouths of anybody else. I'm sorry that any councillor feels that they don't want to be in the Labour Party anymore. But our position is clear. Israel has been the victim of terrorist attacks, and Israel has the right to defend itself, to get its hostages home and to protect its citizens after these unprovoked terrorist attacks. and across the country, across the world, are incredibly concerned about the situation in Gaza with the lack of essentials, basics getting in. The Rafah crossing still being closed means that humanitarian assistance is not getting into Gaza.

And we would encourage the global community to come together to ensure, as President Biden is doing, we hope today, that that assistance can get in. But at the same time, this hostage crisis being resolved and innocent Israelis getting home to their families too. I know you don't want to put words into people's mouths, but one of the things that is being called for as a position, it's just useful to get clarity from you today, if there has been any change or there's movement on this in light of the news last night, is a question for what will it take for Labour to call for a ceasefire? Well, look, Israel has got a right to defend itself and to

get its hostages home and to take out the Hamas terrorists who are responsible for all of this. But that must be done in a proportionate way in accordance with international law. That is incredibly important because innocent children, women, men in Gaza should not be the collateral damage in this conflict. So do you think it's being done in a proportionate way right now? Because since he's first said that there there have been many, many developments. Yes, but a lot of them are still not verified who the perpetrator is. You're talking about this particular explosion last night? I'm talking about this explosion last night, but others as well. And there will be an investigation

into exactly what happened at this hospital. Whoever is responsible, it is an unacceptable act to target a hospital where innocent people are taking shelter. So just to be clear, as it stands at the moment, what is Labour's position about the two narratives, as it were, about who is responsible? Have you got a position on that yet? Are you able to take one or are you aligned with the British government on this? Of course we can't take a position because that yet? Are you able to take one or are you aligned with the British government on this? Of course we can't take a position because we don't know the facts. No, no, I know. But what have you talked about this morning?

What information have you been given? You're the most senior person that some of our listeners might be hearing this morning. And you will be, I'm sure, or certainly Sir Keir Starmer will be privy to information that could give an insight. At the moment, nobody knows who is responsible for this appalling attack on the hospital. There will be an investigation. There must be an investigation to find out who is culpable for this evil, heinous attack. And whether it is a life lost of an Israeli

or of a Palestinian, a Muslim or a Jew, it is one life too many. Too many innocent people are losing their lives because of this conflict. Well, you can, I should say to our listeners, I'm sure you do know, but I'll say it as well. You can get the latest on what's happening in the Israel-Gaza war on the BBC website. You can get the latest as that changes. And as Rachel Reeves, who you're listening to, the Labour MP, the shadow chancellor, the woman who'd like to be the first woman chancellor, I should say, of this country.

She just mentioned that the US President Joe Biden has just arrived in Israel and we'll see how that visit pans out. I mentioned that you will be, if there is what you want to happen, the first woman to potentially be the chancellor of this country. That would be quite a moment in itself. But I suppose you don't want to get ahead of yourself. In the meantime, people are saying what you've done with a book that I have in front of me that you've just published, the women who made modern economics. Some have said it's a brilliant job application. How would you respond to that in terms of your study of some of these women? Well, the thing about being a shadow minister, Emma, it feels like the longest job application process ever. I've been shadow chancellor for two and a half years now

and maybe another year, maybe even more. It's quite a long time in the shadow cabinet as well. Maybe getting this interview shows that I'm in the final set of candidates for the job. But yeah, look, being a shadow minister is like auditioning for the role that I want to do. And as you say, if Labour does win the election, I'll be the first female chancellor. 800 years the position of chancellor of the Exchequer has existed, and never one woman has done the role. Now, that's not the same around the world. There are other countries around the world where there are women now as chancellors and treasury secretaries,

including in the US, where Janet Yellen is the first ever female treasury secretary. Christine Lagarde, who's head of the European Central Bank, was the French finance minister for many years. So Britain needs to catch up. And I hope to have the chance to do that if Labour win the election. I mean, I think what you're speaking to there is interesting. I mean, I could at this point, and perhaps I just should, to make sure that, you know, the obvious has been stated, Labour has failed to have a leader who is a woman, apart from a few moments of caretaking positions. And, you know, the Conservative Party, albeit the last one was extremely short, have had three female prime

ministers. But I think what's really interesting having read your book and look through the women you've chosen to focus on here is women's relationship with the economy, women's relationship with maths, and perhaps women even putting themselves forward or being considered to be the ones in charge of our money. What do you have to say about that kind of taking a step back with the women you've chosen to focus on and actually the texts that you are taught and exposed to in this world? Yeah. So I was an economist before I became a politician. And all of the jobs that I've done since I've become a politician have been in this sort of economics field. So, you know, some people want to be leader of their political party.

I'm honest. I've always wanted to be chancellor of the Exchequer. That for me is the perfect job. And when I became Shadow Chancellor, one of the things I reflected on is how few women I studied as an economist and how few women I worked with when I was an economist, both at the Bank of England

and then in the private sector as well. And I've always felt, whether it's in politics or economics, that every generation of women stand on the Bank of England and then in the private sector as well. And I've always felt, whether it's in politics or economics, that every generation of women stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us. And I wanted to understand a little bit about some of the women over the period of history have influenced modern economics. And some of the women in this book I knew a lot about. Some, when I started writing this book, I knew very little, I'm ashamed to say, about. And I wanted to write back these remarkable women back into our economic history and also to explain how my economic thinking has been informed by these women and many others as well if I become Chancellor.

You also include women you don't agree with, which is, I suppose, key when learning. I think that's really important because some people have said that, you know, you've included women like Anna Schwartz, who, along with Milton Friedman, she wrote The Monetarist History, the sort of seminal textbook for monetarism, which is, you know, the idea that the money supply is the most important thing in the economy, and very much influenced Margaret Thatcher, for example.

Now, I don't agree with Anna Schwartz or Milton Friedman, but it would be silly to say they have no influence on me because I don't agree. The fact that I disagree means I've engaged in that debate and I've come to a different conclusion. But the interesting thing about Anna Schwartz, when Milton Friedman won the Nobel Prize for economics, Anna Schwartz was not mentioned. And yet that textbook, that seminal book was written by both of them. Milton Friedman was once asked about their partnership. And he said it was an almost perfect partnership. Anna did most of the work and I got most of the credit. And that tells us a lot, actually, not just about that relationship,

but also about a lot of the women in this book. That's not you and Keir Starmer, is it? It's certainly not me and Keir Starmer. Sorry, you slightly teed that up for me. It's a really interesting story of women in economics. No, it is. Many of them have been written out of that history. And that is a story, I have to say,

we do hear time and time again on Women's Hour. And we also see now more women winning those prizes and finally getting those very big prizes, especially in STEM subjects, in science. Yes, and just a fortnight ago, I think it was, the third ever woman won the Nobel Prize for Economics. And actually, she's the first woman to win it on her own, not mentioned alongside another person, another man. So that's really exciting. Now three women have won the Nobel Prize, but obviously hugely

outnumbered by men. In case there is this question, and I think I sort of know the answer, but it's good to clarify. Are you, you're not saying in this or are you saying in this the idea that female economists and leaders think differently, do things differently and are better? No I'm certainly not making that point although some of the women in this book, Eleanor Ostrom and Esther Duflo, have approached economics in quite a different way to many of their contemporaries. Much more collaborative. So for example, Eleanor Ostrom, she looked at how we manage shared resources. And she did a lot of fieldwork, a lot of studies on the ground, looking at water basins in Southern California, looking at projects sharing a forest space about water pollution. And it was very much on the ground studies, very different from the economics that

I was exposed to at the bank and in other institutions, which become increasingly mathematical and big computer programmes collating huge amounts of data. So the work of Eleanor Ostrom and also Esther Duflo, who won the Nobel Prize for her work in development economics, is quite different. But the main argument that I'm making in this book is that a lot of women have influenced modern economics, and yet we don't know their names, and we don't know their contributions. And they should be part of the story of economics as well. And I know you're not making it totally, but you do make the point several times in the book about women's experiences, sometimes giving them a different lens on the society around them, perhaps the jobs that they've worked in, or those that they've been close to,

who've been able to have those jobs, and what's not there provision wise in the state. Yes, so I think it is interesting, whether it is economics or politics, it often takes having women in the room to have issues that affect women in the workplace or women in any environment to be brought to the table. So, for example, in economics, the first women to write about the gender pay gap were women like Mary Paley Marshall and Joan Robinson. There's no reason why men couldn't have been doing that work and those studies. But it took women in economics to bring those issues to the fore. Clinton's Council of Economic Advisers, she, as an economist policymaker, did a big study about why women in the US were still paid less than men and has made it a really important part

of her contribution today as US Treasury Secretary. Similarly, in politics, Barbara Castle was the person who legislated for equal pay in Britain. There's no reason why a man as Secretary of State for Employment couldn't have done that. But it took having a woman in the room to get that on the statute. I suppose because of the amount of roles men have had and how long they've had them, there'll be other examples. And on the Conservative side, not least, I was just thinking of

who brought in shared parental leave, which actually was during the coalition, if I remember correctly, with two men, Nick Clegg and David Cameron across that. Yes, I mean, that is true, but then it took the Conservative Party electing a large number of women in 2010 to put some of those issues on the political agenda. And then you also have women who ignore what are seen as women's subjects and women's politics as well. You know, on sometimes one side of the bench a bit more and then other side we can argue. But I wanted to get to your policies.

I mean, there aren't all costed. There isn't a manifesto yet. We aren't into the proper election moment. But you have described it. I hope I'm going to say this correctly. It's one of those words that looks perhaps easier to read than say, which is a problem in my job. But Securonomics, is that the name of Rachel Reeves's

vision? Securonomics is something that I spoke about in a speech in Washington earlier this year, and then in my party conference speech as well. The idea of Securonomics, and some of this comes from some of the things that Janet Yellen is doing in the US. She's a big influence on you. She's a big influence. And I had the opportunity to meet her in Washington earlier this year. The idea of Securenomics is building a more secure and more resilient national economy. We've been exposed as a global economy and here in Britain to a huge number of shocks over the last few years, whether it is austerity, whether it is the war in Ukraine, whether it is the pandemic. And the UK economy has shown a lack of resilience in the face of these shocks. Inflation in the UK, we have the latest figures

today that it's unchanged at 6.7% is higher in the UK than it is in most of our comparator countries. Growth is forecast to be weaker this year and next year than most of our comparator economies. And one of the problems in our economy is that we are too, we are over reliant on global international supply chains, and we are not a secure and strong enough economy. And the problem with that is that when we don't have a secure national economy, we don't have a resilient national economy, family finances become incredibly insecure. And I give the story, I think, in the introduction of the book of a family I met in Worthing last year. And it's a mum and dad with a young child. They work five jobs between them. And they told me that they

only have half a day a week together as a family, as they balance working and caring responsibilities to make sure they've got enough money to pay all the bills. And the mum said to me, you just worry that you're doing something wrong. And I thought that was just such a powerful thing because they're doing everything right. They are working hard. They're trying their best to bring up their young child. They can't get on the housing ladder. They struggle family holidays. I mean, these are huge issues. But there is something that is profoundly wrong with our economy when working people are struggling so much to get by. And Secure Anomics is about building more security into family finances by building a more resilient national economy.

There will be other times and other interviews and more detail to go into what you mean by that, because it's a big part of your job right now in this job application, this long road to judges' houses, as it were, the 10 Downing Street, 11 Downing Street, is that people can trust you to do it. And some of the critics on your own side, more left perhaps of you, if I could describe it,

have said you sound a lot, in some ways, like the Conservatives. You're not radical enough. And the word secure and on economics can i say it secure economics there you go i've done it you know if you're not going to be um you back you're backing being disciplined about spending you're not going to raise taxes it seems you tell me otherwise you know how are you going to pay for all of this is always a question to somebody in your position are you being radical enough and does that name do you a disservice? Well, for those people who say you've just got to borrow more and spend more,

I would say look at what Liz Truss and Quasi Quarting did just a year ago. They played fast and loose with the public finances. And as a result, our interest rates have gone up. We pay more for our borrowing on our mortgages and everything else. One and a half million people will come off fixed rate mortgage deals next year and will be paying more every single month because of that terrible experiment that they did with the UK economy. I would never play fast and loose with the public finances. I mean, some would argue, sorry if I just interject that. A strong and stable economy has got to come first and that iron discipline about enforcing fiscal rules,

that is not just a nice to have, it is the building block upon which all economic policy has to be built. But I suppose when you are in opposition, the luxury is of dreaming of what you can do until you actually get in number 10 and see what is possible. That's the issue. All I was going to say about Liz Truss,

some have argued in her favour, because her conference speech was quite the highlight for some of the Conservatives that she wasn't given long enough to do it. Oh my goodness. I mean, the damage she did in such a short space of time. Thank goodness she didn't have any longer to inflict damage upon us. But the damage has already been done. And one of the reasons why interest rates, borrowing costs for families are so high in the UK is because of the damage that was done. And I say

never again should a Chancellor or Prime Minister be able to behave like that. I just wonder if those, and critics, as I say, on your own side who want to see you grapple with those problems that you describe, whether you are radical enough, or this is too steady, too secure, too, you know, not what is needed at this time. Well, I sit out at conference, as did Kia, our plans to grow the economy, reform of the planning system, reform of the skill system, but also some targeted tax changes. So we've got a crisis in our NHS today. I've said that if you make Britain your home, you should pay your taxes here. And under Labour, you will. We'll get rid of

the non-dom tax status and use that to reduce the backlog in our NHS. We'll close the loophole whereby private schools don't pay VAT or business rates and plough that money into the 93 percent of children at our state schools. Well, they've got roofs. Rather than I mean, those are some of the differences that Labour would make. And I'd love to go through in more detail. will you come back and allow me to do that? I would be delighted to. Go through some of those policies. But today, obviously I had to talk about today's news as well to make sure we understood Labour's position as it stands,

but it was also an opportunity to talk about your research and work and some of the thinking that underpins the woman who would like to be the first female Chancellor of this country. Rachel Reeves, thank you very much. The book is called The Women Who Made Modern Economics. I look forward to having you back to go through some of those and what money will actually come in and might not. Who knows? We will get to it.

But my next guest is someone we read a lot about but rarely hear from. Colleen Rooney's life story in some ways reads like a fairy tale. A 16-year-old from a working-class part of Liverpool falls in love with the boy next door, also arguably the best footballer of his generation, Wayne Rooney. They get married, have four children and live in a mansion.

From another angle, it could also read a bit like a nightmare. After recurring stories of Wayne's infidelity and problematic drinking over the years, in 2019, Colleen herself became the story following an explosive social media post. Colleen wrote that she had been concerned about articles appearing in the press that could have only come from information on her private Instagram account. So she'd gone about laying a trap for the

account she suspected of the leak and then told the world it was dot dot... Rebecca Vardy's account. The whole episode and Colleen herself quickly became known as Wagatha Christie. And Rebecca Vardy, who continues to deny she was the source of those stories, sued Colleen Rooney for libel. That case was heard in the High Court last year and the judge ruled in Colleen Rooney's favour. Rebecca Vardy was ordered to pay Rooney's legal fees to the tune of one and a half million pounds. Colleen Rooney is now putting her side of the story in a documentary series out tonight on Disney Plus and she came into the Woman's Hour studio with me for a radio exclusive interview. I've got to say

this, it's weird to be sat with a woman named Wagatha Christie, dubbed that way. How do you feel about it? I just have to laugh about it now. But it was something very serious for me that it did get mocked a bit, you know, with the memes and the Wagatha Christie title. But it was a hard time for me to go through. Now that it's over, I can be a bit more lighthearted about it. But it was a really difficult time for me to go through. Now that it's over, I can be a bit more light-hearted about it, but it was a really difficult time for me and my family and loved ones around me as well. Of course, and I definitely want to get to that,

but I think just to kind of sort of signal what a moment it became, and, you know, it's your life, you're a real person, you've been a real person behind so many headlines since you were very young. There was even a theatre show, you know, the Wagatha Christie trial. Yeah, I know. I was just wondering, and obviously there was the drama, I was wondering

how it was going to get played out, but it was the transcripts from court so there was not an extra in there. They just used them transcripts which was clever and obviously they had to do it for legal reasons. Yes. Have you watched any of these? I did watch the drama and my friend messaged me

and was like, when did you start baking bread? Because she bakes bread. She was watering the plants with a watering can. She's like, that's not yours. I have nothing to do with this drama whatsoever. So TV Colleen bakes bread, but real Colleen, I can confirm in this exclusive, does not bake bread. All right, we've got that bit out of the way.

You are now in charge of a TV part of this, though, which is your multi-part documentary with Disney. Yes. Why did you want to do it? I took my time. Obviously, I needed to process the whole journey. And that's how I go about my life really and then the documentary is giving me time to explain from beginning to end what went on before the case and also now that it's come to an end and the verdict came out so it was it was the time I couldn't go on a radio

station and explain it all from beginning to end also on daytime tv I felt like the documentary was the right place to do it and tell my truth and put it all in one place because you just alluded to this about you know the nickname Wagatha Christie although funny for some was was far from funny for you and in the documentary I've seen a couple of episodes of it it's's really, really watchable. I think, you know, you tell your story really clearly. So congratulations on that, if I can say it like that. It's very clear you're not in a great place when this all begins.

And just to remind people, because this begins quite a while ago in 2017, your husband, Wayne Rooney, caught driving over the limit in another woman's car. You're pregnant at the time with your fourth baby and you're away with the boys when this starts to begin. Yeah, it was summer holidays and I was due to fly back to England the next day when the story broke out. And it was hard personally because a lot of my life it was all over the national newspapers.

Everyone had their say and was commenting on what was going on. But for me, I deal with my personal life behind closed doors, which is completely different to how the court case was played out because it was so public, because it was a legal matter. So people say, oh, you know, she's gone through all this with her marriage and things have been in the paper. However, we're husbands and wife. We can go into our house and lock ourselves away

and see if we can then deal with it and if we are going to go on in the future. Whereas the legal case was very different to that. It was. And I think what you've just started to talk to there is how you have learned since the age of 16, which is when you and Wayne got together and the paps started following you and trying to get a photo of you, is you've learned how to delineate what's public and what's private. And that extended to your Instagram accounts that you did have, which some people may still not know. You had a private one, which was for your friends and family and people you approved, and you had a public one. Yes. And it was from the private one that information started to appear

in the newspapers. Yes, and it all started from that story, from the car story. And I wasn't in a good place at that time, and it was really frustrating that someone was giving my private information to a national newspaper it's private for a reason you know it's something some of the stories I wasn't bothered that they were out there but it was the fact that it was wrong to leak someone's private information that was my whole like thought process behind it it shouldn't be getting done full stop but you know

you aren't a detective you're not working in the police what makes you think it's coming from Rebecca Vardy's account what was the first clue at the beginning I didn't have a clue I went through my followers and went through it time and time again and no one really stood out to me. And Wayne did say, delete your account. And that wasn't the answer for me. I enjoy being on Instagram, especially my private account. I get to keep in touch with friends and family that I don't pick up the phone to every day. And it's just nice to see family members and children and how they're getting on.

And I do enjoy that side of Instagram so to delete it wasn't the answer and again I took my time going through and the thinking behind why would someone do this was it for money was it you know to be relevant and I it all boiled down to this is someone who has a connection with this newspaper, the newspaper that it kept going to all the time. I was very struck by the newspaper it kept going to because anyone, you know, as a northerner, anyone who knows someone from Liverpool knows if something's going in the Sun newspaper,

you're probably not putting it there yourself because of the relationship that city has with that paper. Definitely not, which it struck a chord with a lot of people there. You know, it's something that, you know, Scousers wouldn't do. So obviously that eliminated a lot of other people from my followers that I probably wouldn't even have thought it was, but the fact that it wouldn't have been. We're talking, of course, about the Hillsborough tragedy and the way that paper covered that or didn't. Rebecca Vardy's account is the one that bubbles up to the surface as the one for you that could be doing it. And you decide that how you've looked through your list. I looked through the list. Obviously, there was a connection.

When I Googled, there was a lot of Sun exclusives. But also there was the WhatsApp messages from previous that Rebecca reached out to me a lot, whereas I never reached out. You know, we don't live by each other. We're only connected through our husbands playing for England together, which was every blue moon. You know, it's not like a week in, week out football club where, you know, you get to see each other.

So it was from time to time. And I read over the messages back as far as it went. And it became relevant that it could be an account because she wanted to keep in touch. And the messages just, I don't know, you just get that feeling with you just don't add up. And she wanted to keep in touch. And the message is just, I don't know, you just get that feeling with you, just don't add up. And she wanted to be friends and I was always friendly. I always answered back.

Because you do adopt, if I may say, quite a genius approach at both misleading who you thought was snitching on you to the press, as you called it, that you put a few posts out along those lines, and also the press, you know, seeing what you could place. As a journalist, I found that fascinating, what fake information you could leak about yourself. And you limited it to one person on your account, on your private Instagram account, who could see it, you didn't know about that function, you found that function. And it was to Rebecca Vardy. And you were able to, from your point of view, deduce,

you thought, you felt, and you still, I still I believe stand by this that it was her account that was putting out these stories that's quite a leap from thinking someone's there and perhaps you could block them you could unfollow them in fact you chose to trap them I did block beforehand and then Rebecca reached out and messaged and said, you know, have you blocked me? So I followed her back, said it must have been a mistake and then accepted her back onto my account. And then from there, I then done more and more fake posts, which some of them then did go on to be in the newspaper.

Did you tell Wayne you were doing this? No, and people are really shocked at this, and his reaction to it all when it came out was, what have you done? Because keeping things to myself has always been a coping mechanism of mine. I don't like to trouble anyone else with my worries until, you know, there is a problem there. And also it was, as you like to call it, an investigation.

I'm not going to tell anyone in case, you know, and I can trust people, but it was my problem. It was my investigation. So I didn't want to ruin it or I didn't want to tell anyone for them to then worry. So I just kept it all to myself until I knew which account it was. Were you angry? I was frustrated you know people going behind your back and delivering information which is my information to deliver if I wanted to do it then

it's down to me but not for anyone else. Did you tell Wayne the day you were going to post the big post that was the reveal of your detective work? No, again, he was in America at the time. He was playing for DC United and he was five hours behind. So I'd put the post up and he didn't ring till hours later because he was still in bed when the post went up so and that was the words he did say was what what have you done it was a very manic day I knew it would get some attention but not the amount it got I mean it was huge it was massive yeah and I just didn't you know I didn't expect that at all. That might have been sort of where it had ended.

I mean, it wasn't over. You probably had a lot still to deal with at that point. But it then goes, as you say, to the courtroom. Yeah. It becomes a legal case. I just wanted to put an end to it. And that was my thought process about putting the post out there. Because I had done one in post to say someone was doing it to me

and I even put one of them warning post public and said someone is leaking my private information to a national newspaper and I want it to stop. It didn't stop. It continued. So I just had enough and I thought I will answer the questions that people are asking me. Did you ever find out who was leaking that information? So I thought, you answer the questions that people are asking me did you ever find out who was leaking that information so I thought you know just put it out there put a stop to it little did I know there would be a court case I would never in a million years have thought

a court case could come from that and it was Rebecca Vardy who took you to court yeah which I again the documentary was a place for me to explain that because people think, oh, it was happening to Colleen. And then she took her to court, which it was never the case. I did not want to go to court. It was, you know, I was terrified about going to court because I've never been in a courtroom before. I've never been through that type of legal battle. It was tough and it was really hard. I would say I've been through some tough times in my life, but that was one of the toughest times I've had. If I can, I'll come back to that. But just to say on that, does it frustrate you? Or I don't know what your response is to this,

that still quite a lot of people, they'll know the name, perhaps, Wagatha Christie, they'll know maybe the broad brush of what happened, but they might not know who won the case. They might not have followed what actually played out. They saw you both going in. A lot was made of how you both looked, as always, for you and for Rebecca Vardy, for a lot of women in the public eye.

But it's kind of a strange thing that people may have just sort of tuned out of that bit of it. Yeah, it was a long time coming, the verdict. You know, the judge took a long time to get to that point. So maybe people did drop off. I don't know. But do you know what? At the end of the day, it was me that was happy, you know,

to get the verdict. And whether people knew about it or not, however, in the documentary, you will see, you know to to get the verdict and whether people knew about her or not however in the documentary you will see you know the whole case from beginning to end but just because i do have you here now and you can you can say as well do you feel like you won and how did that feel yeah of course you know the judgment was really detailed and i was surprised at how detailed it was and when the court case finished the last day of court I felt like a cloud had been lifted but when the verdict come out that was you know the the cherry on top of the cake it was it explained what I was saying from the beginning and my truth from the

beginning was the same truth at the end my story never changed throughout it was always the same story because I was telling the truth and that's something that you know has been with me from a young girl my dad's just always said to me as long as you tell the truth you'll be fine in life and that was what was playing over in my head time and time again don't get me wrong I wanted to drop out of the legal battle so many times. You do? Yeah. It got to a point where I was just, I would cry and cry

and I just didn't want it to get, and that's not me. I would like to say I am quite a strong-willed, strong woman. However, it was just mentally just draining. And I've got four boys, even though I was physically there looking after them, mentally I just wasn't there. I was just constantly thinking about this court case. Because you presented, I mean, obviously how you present and how you feel are two different things,

but it sounds like you were going home at night and just crying. Yeah, and it was, you know, the lawyer would get on the phone on a Friday evening and he'd say, you know, try and have a good weekend, but for Monday, can you try and, you know, look through your archive for this and can you get this up? And I have to do things then and then. So I would be on that call at tea time, six o'clock. I would still be on the computer at two o'clock in the morning

Wayne would just come in and roll his eyes at me and say come on just get to bed now he'd be waiting on the couch for me to come and watch some telly and it would never happen I mean the other reason people may be confused is Rebecca Vardy has continued to deny that she did that and that was her actions well that's obviously I can't comment on what she thinks has continued to deny that she did that and that was her actions.

Well, that's obviously, I can't comment on what she thinks, but I, at the end of the day, I'm happy with what I did. It turns up to court, I said my piece and the judge seeing that in the verdict and that's all that matters to me. Ever fancy a career in law or police? No, actually actually Wayne was quite interested in the whole the the court case and he actually said I might apply for law school after this. He's just got a new job at Birmingham hasn't he? Yeah yeah yeah he's we're just so happy to have him back in the UK. No but you know I joke aside I'm interested in you if I may because you

so much has been written about you and before this, you know, who you are. And I think what also came across in the documentary is your family's view of you and you as a little girl and talking about you being a straight A student and being nicknamed Piffy Longstocking. You did leave education a bit early. Your life completely changed when you met Wayne and you got on board that bus, as it were, as very young kids. I mean, did you ever think about what you would have been, what you may have been? Were you thinking along those lines? Actually, journalism was one of the roads I wanted to go down. I took English Lit, Media Studies and Performing Arts for A-Level.

I'd done AS, I continued into second year and then left but I did enjoy you know journalistic writing and probably that would have been something that I would have gone on to university to do. Do you ever think about that? I haven't got time to. A busy woman? Yeah maybe when my children you know are grown up and maybe something that I could visit again. But you've got your voice heard in a way in this. It's very authored by you, this particular documentary. And I think it's interesting. It comes at a time, I know not timed per se, as the Beckham documentary on Netflix.

And there's a lot being written at the moment about WAGs, and I put that in inverted commas, especially on a programme like Woman's Hour, Wives and Girlfriends Of, and about finally WAGs being taken seriously what do you make of that going back to the you know the people that matter to me that's always been in my head is as long as they take me seriously everyone else can have their say in comments and i don't know these people making the comments, so it doesn't matter to me. However, we are people, we are women, we do have our own lives and I think it is a nice thing that we do get taken seriously when we do,

but that's not my intention to set out to make people feel that way. When I meet people in person, then hopefully they will get you know that I am a serious person and you know I do have views on life and I am a mum of four boys who wants them to to know that I am a strong woman and I know the rights and wrongs of life. How do you feel about the term WAG? It's been going on for years now, so I just take it with a pinch of salt. But years ago, I used to think, you know,

we're all people, we all live different lives, we are all individuals. So to bring us all together in one term is unfair. But it's just, it's one of them things, you know, it's like the whole Wagatha Christie thing. It's a term and it's... Well, it's a media invention a lot of the time but it's good to give you the opportunity to speak and hear in your own voice. Yeah I think maybe

years ago it used to annoy me now I don't really care about it. Was there a kind of sisterhood because you women were all in this same group just thinking about you as women you weren't the same people but you were brought together I mean I don't, was there a good relationship between you and Victoria Beckham, for instance?

Yeah, we've always got on. And again, it was only through the England team. We used to see each other. So it was every now and again, or if there was tournaments. But yeah, Victoria is lovely. She's a great mum, great wife, and a great businesswoman. So, you know, we always got on. And the same with all the other girls that got brought together.

There was never any conflict or it was... And we were all with our families as well, which was a great thing. So we all got to know each other's families, which I absolutely loved. And that's one thing that I love in life is bringing people together. I've heard you throw a good party. I do throw a really good party which you could get back to perhaps now this is a bit more behind you but you do talk in the documentary about that that very difficult time that this all began in and I mentioned about Wayne and the driving and when when you were away and you talk about you know it's important for your children to see you as a strong woman you know that there will be people who say because they are a fan of you why have you stayed

why do you stay when there have been so many difficult stories and what do you say to that there's always been love there do you know if there wasn't maybe it would have been over a long time ago but if you've got something to to work at and to fight for then why would you throw it you know all away I have been hurt there's been really difficult times there's been times where I've just thought I am going to walk away but again I take time to process it that's the thing people jump on things too quick and say right that's it whereas I do like to weigh up the situation is the feelings there and can I go on and it's about me it's not about anyone else how do I feel how do I think I can you know continue this journey and let's take time to work at it if

it doesn't work then you know let's go down another road at it. If it doesn't work, then, you know, let's go down another road and see what happens. But, you know, between mine and Wayne's relationship, there's always been love there and it's a shame, you know, to let that go. Yeah, and a lot of women can also relate to that. Yeah. I'm sure.

There's a lot of football in your house, just as we bring our conversations close. I did read about three TV screens also being smashed during lockdown. Is that true? Yeah, well, two. Is this because of football? We were on our third TV. No, it's just rowdy boys.

And one was a football and one was a toy car. Someone was thrown at another one. So, yeah, it was, we were all contained in one space for too long. And it was, yeah, we were on our third TV in lockdown, which wasn't good. Helene Rooney, do you actually like football?

I don't mind it, I would say. I've got to like it more through my boys, not through Wayne. I used to just go and support and turn up, but I would probably chat more than I would watch, whereas now I do actually watch. And my boys, I can see them on the pitch looking at the sideline to make sure I'm watching.

My eldest, actually, when he was younger, he said, why are you always chatting to the mums on the side? I'm like, I am watching as well. And he came off one day and he was like, did you see me score that free kick? I was oh yeah it was amazing he was like well you didn't because he didn't even score a free kick because you were talking he's a clever one so the detective gene is running strong in the family no I mean I asked because obviously the other thing that's changed since you and I were growing up is women playing football as well you know I don't know if

you ever did kick a football about when you were younger, but the Lionesses. It's amazing. And we lived in America for a year and the young girls playing football over there, it was just as big as the boys. And now in England, I can see that so much more. And it's fantastic, you know, to see my boys are at Manchester United Academy,

two of them. And I see the women's team often training there. And the success they've had, and hopefully that continues, has been great. Well, I'm still hoping you're going to come and do a piece for us on Women's Hour as a journalist when you're a bit less busy. Colleen Rooney, thank you so much for talking to me. Thanks for having me. There you go.

You don't often hear her in her own words telling her own story and giving some insights into her life and what a life it's been of sorts in the terms of the coverage. Wanted to be a journalist. There 9th. Now, I did promise you some poetry. The British poet Becky Hemsley is on the line. She's published, self-published four collections of her work and topped the Amazon poetry chart twice. Originally a primary school teacher, in the last couple of years she's decided to focus solely on her poetry after one in particular went viral.

Becky, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us. And I was going to say the one that went viral is Breathe. And I thought perhaps we could start our discussion by hearing Breathe from you. Absolutely. She sat at the back and they said she was shy. She led from the front and they hated her pride. They asked her advice and then questioned her guidance. They branded her loud then were shocked by her silence. When she shared no ambition they said it was sad so she told them her dreams and they said she was mad. They told her they'd listen then covered their ears and gave her a hug whilst they laughed at

her fears. And she listened to all of it thinking she should be the girl they told her to be best as she could. But one day, she asked what was best for herself, instead of trying to please everyone else. So she walked to the forest and stood with the trees. She heard the wind whisper and dance with the leaves. And she spoke to the willow, the elm and the pine and she told them what she'd been told, time after time. She told them she felt she was never enough. She was either too little or far, far too much. Too loud or too quiet. Too fierce or too weak. Too wise or too foolish. Too bold or too meek. Then she found a small clearing surrounded by firs and she stopped.

And she heard what the trees said to her. And she sat there for hours, not wanting to leave. For the forest said nothing. It just let her breathe. Oh, I don't think I want to say anything after that. I just want to breathe too Becky it's the poem that really has changed your life in some ways hasn't it it absolutely has yes I like you say I was a primary school teacher and then I became an educational consultant supporting early literacy in schools. And during the pandemic, during the lockdowns,

I was writing more and more. And I realised that actually this is what I wanted to do. It sort of felt like my purpose, I suppose. So I just was really brave and took a little leap in 2021 and started sharing my poetry. And yes, that was the poem that then changed everything really what do you think it was about it I think I think it's that it resonates with so many people um I think this idea that we're never

quite enough we can never really win I suppose is is how it was written as you know we're either too loud or we're too quiet or um and I think I think that's what it was I had quite a lot of people and still now will message me and say I felt like this my whole life but I never realized why and that's exactly it it's that I've always felt stuck in the middle trying to cram myself into these this really narrow these really narrow parameters of who people tell me I should be um and so I think I think that's why and also talking directly to women I imagine yes I mean I think lots of people can feel this but I wrote it from my kind of perspective and I think it I think it is that I think it resonates more with women I think because

it does feel quite often like we we're really struggling to have it all, I guess. And lots of lots of women that kind of, again, that I spoke to would say, I had, you know, I was in a meeting at work, and I spoke up and was told, well, no, you know, you need to wait next time. And then in the next meeting, they didn't say anything. And then afterwards, they were pulled aside and said, Why didn't you share your ideas? And it was that sort of, yeah, juxtaposition of what do you want me to do? And your latest collection, Letters from Life, includes a poem called Like a Girl, which has also had a big reach. And I know that you're going to read that for us.

So why don't we hear that again, and then we can hopefully squeeze in a few words about what inspired that before the end of the programme. Why don't you go for it? Okay, yes. This one is Like a Girl. She drives just like a girl, you know, and throws just like one too. She fights just like a girl as well. She's just no match for you.

She also runs just like a girl, and that's the way she plays. But when they say she's like a girl, I think they mean to say worse, somehow less, somehow slower, somehow weaker. They think that if she's like a girl, they'll easily defeat her. But girls will go to battle when they already are bleeding. And girls are great at throwing themselves upwards through glass ceilings. Girls are busy navigating progress, driving change, and girls are busy winning whilst you criticise their game. So tell her that she's like a girl. She might just prove you right. She may outplay, outlast you, win the race and win the fight, because she's a driving force,

fighting for her place in this world. And if you try to talk her her down she'll rise up like a girl Becky I could listen to you all day but as I just alluded to we're nearly at the end of our hour on woman's hour it is something that you are doing uh now full-time this is your your priority and you've chosen to keep doing it yourself in terms of self-publishing as well? I have, yes, at the moment, yes. I had an opportunity potentially to be traditionally published very, very soon into it. I think I had to weigh up a lot of, I had to weigh up everything really. And I knew that what I was going to have to do would creatively exhaust me really and I think I've discovered through doing this I think that my purpose as cheesy as it sounds is kind of to spread a little light shine a little light on things and you can't spread light if you burnt out

and I knew that's what would happen if I did it so I actually decided I would continue to do it myself for now and um I haven't regretted it and I haven't looked back so I know I made the right decision you should get that on a t-shirt you can't spread light if you're burned out I'm sure that's already in there somewhere but it's uh I'm sure it is somewhere if only you had enough energy which you're trying to conserve to remember all the words that you've you've put um becky thank you so much for talking to us this morning thank you for thank you for talking to me becky helmsley there the latest poetry collection is called letters from life thank you so much for your company today i'll be

back with you tomorrow at 10 and i I'll also be joined by Lisa Cameron to talk about her decision to leave the SNP and join the Conservatives. A very intriguing tale. All that to come tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Hello, I'm Melvin Bragg, and I'm back with a new series of BBC Radio 4's In Our Time. We're celebrating our 1,000th episode, so there's an extraordinary range of topics for you to get stuck into, from history, science and philosophy, to religion and the arts. This series we're discussing Albert Einstein, E. Mark Bergman, Plankton, the Versailles Treaty and much more.

In Our Time is like an audio encyclopedia, we're told, and you can hear it all on BBC Sounds. I hope you enjoy it. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.