Woman's Hour - Comedian Sophie Willan, Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert, Emma Raducanu, the Unofficial Bridgerton the Musical Afghanistan update

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

In May this this year, the comedian Sophie Willan won a BAFTA for best comedy writing, for the pilot episode of her BBC 2 comedy Alma’s Not Normal. She now has a six part series on BBC2 which begins on Monday night. Drawn from her own experiences, she plays the central character Alma who grew up in an out of the care system in Bolton. We find her eternally optimistic with no job or qualifications trying to get her life on track and follow her dreams.British teenager Emma Raducanu has reached the US Open final She is the first qualifier to reach a Grand Slam final and will play another teenager Leylah Fernandez on Saturday. Chloe discusses her achievement with Rebecca Rodgers who was Emma's teacher at primary school, and Anna Kessel, the Women's Sports Editor at the Telegraph. Sarah Gilbert the scientist who led the team that developed the Oxford Vaccine joins us to talk about her latest award. In recognition of her achievements she’s been made a dame, had a barbie made in her likeness, won GQs “Heroes of the Year” award and last night was named as the 49th winner of the “Bold Woman” award which honours inspirational women with a track record of success. Sarah talks to Chloe Tilley about the ups and downs of the vaccine journey over the last 18 months and booster vaccines.Bridgerton, the smash hit Netflix tv show was binge-watched by millions over Christmas in 2020 - in fact Netflix estimates that by January of 2021, more than 80 million households had watched it. Two young songwriters were so captivated by the series that they decided to write an unofficial Bridgerton musical - over TikTok. 22-year-old singer-songwriter Abigail Barlow and 20-year-old composer and pianist Emily Bear have now composed an entire concept album - The Unofficial Bridgerton Musical - based on the songs they featured in their TikTok videos. The Taliban in Afghanistan unveiled their interim government earlier this week with an all-male cabinet, including an interior minister who is on the FBI’s most wanted list. This came weeks after saying they would welcome women in government positions. And on social media, footage appeared showing women protesting those announcements being whipped by a Taliban fighter. Since then the Taliban’s new interior ministry have issued their first decree, banning any protests that do not have official approval. Another senior Taliban official has said that Afghan women will be banned from playing sport. BBC Pashtu Correspondent Sana Safi gives an update.Presented by Chloe Tilley Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to Woman's Air from BBC Radio 4. Hello, welcome to the programme. Chloe Tilley with you here on this Friday morning. It's good to have your company. Now, she's 18. A month ago today, she received her A-level results. But now Emma Raducanu is the first qualifier ever to reach a Grand Slam final by playing her way into the US Open final. Raducanu is the first British woman in a major singles final in 44 years. That is my entire lifetime.

We're going to be speaking to her former primary school teacher who spotted her talent early. Now, Emma's face isn't on the front pages as she wrapped up her match just before 5am but one woman who is splashed across the front pages of the Daily Telegraph this morning is Dame Sarah Gilbert, the lead scientist behind the Oxford AstraZeneca Covid jab. She says we don't need a mass booster programme in this country as immunity from two doses of the vaccine is lasting well. Well the government is keen on a mass programme. The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation has approved a booster for people with a weakened immune system,

but it's still deciding on whether to go further. And that's left many of us wondering, what should we do? As a responsible citizen, should we be taking up the offer of a booster jab to protect ourselves and others? Or, if it is unnecessary, as Dame Sarah suggests, should that vaccine be going to people in countries around the world where few people have had that first jab? We're going to be speaking to Dame Sarah in the next few minutes.

I want to hear your thoughts on that this morning. You can text Womans Hour on 84844. You can get in touch via social media. It's at BBC Womans Hour. Or, of course, you can email us through our website. We're also going to get into the issue of vaccinating 12 to 15 year olds. The JCVI has advised against it,

but it's being looked at by the chief medical officers of the four nations. They're going to report soon. We'll ask Dame Sarah what she thinks about it, because she has quoted as saying, what is the benefit of vaccinating children if they still pass on the virus once jabbed? And the risk of severe disease for them, for most of them, is low.

Let me know your thoughts this morning. Also, it's the biggest hit for Netflix. And that is saying something. 82 million households have tuned into Bridgerton. Now there is the unofficial musical via TikTok. We're going to hear from its creators. Plus, Sophie Willan on her BAFTA win for the best comedy writing that led to her, and if you haven't seen this on Instagram or TikTok,

I urge you to seek this out because it is very funny. It led her to running around a farm in a red sequined dress, swearing with joy. Well, that comedy writing for the pilot episode of Alma's Not Normal led it to being commissioned as a series for BBC Two, and that starts next week. But first, let's talk about this remarkable young woman. To be here in New York for three weeks is just absolutely mind blowing for me. I never thought it would come this early to be in a Grand Slam final. But yeah, what can I say? I'm really enjoying my time in New York and that showing in my tennis. I love playing on court and tonight being under the lights on Arthur Ashe Stadium. That's so iconic and I think I was just thriving in the moment.

Well, that is British teenager Emma Raducanu who has reached the US Open final. She's the first qualifier to reach Grand Slam final and she's going to play another teenager,ila fernandez on saturday night uk time radhikanu is the first woman in a major singles final in 44 years let's speak to rebecca rogers who was emma's teacher at primary school also with us is anna kessel who is the women's sports editor at the daily telegraph hello to both of you good morning good morning Rebecca let's start with you because you when you saw Emma from what reception age sort of four or five years old yeah she was four when she joined us at Bickley in reception and I mean I don't know how much you can tell about someone at four or five whether they're going to go on to greatness in the sporting arena but what what did you witness

well I mean when she first arrived we weren't really aware of them obviously how good she was at tennis not until sort of towards the end of her first year with us um and then we had a tennis coach who came in and provide lessons for children across the school and um it became very apparent um on first glance really that she was head and shoulders above her peers uh she was able to rally um with the coach whereas they were all sort of still just trying to hit the ball that's amazing so at four or five she could rally at tennis that hand-eye coordination that sounds incredible it was it was just fantastic to watch and i have to confess you know at that point i did think goodness she's going to go places with this. And so you saw her develop. Obviously, she moved on.

She's moved on to greatness at the very tender age of 18. But she still came back and visited the primary school this summer, didn't she? That's right. Yes, we were really fortunate because she came to our sports day back in July. And she presented some medals to some of the winners of different races across the school and we're all able to meet her and to hear a little bit about her journey at Wimbledon and not that she really spoke too much about that but it was just a fantastic experience for all of us. And it is incredible because of course she did retire didn't she she did really well at Wimbledon but she got anxious it's fair enough she's 18 and she did retire, didn't she? She did really well at Wimbledon, but she got anxious. It's fair enough.

She's 18 and now she's learnt from that. She's moved on and she's now in the final of the US Open. Do stay with us, Rebecca, because I want to bring in Anna Kessel because, Anna, we can't really underestimate what this means, not only for Emma Raducanu, but for women's tennis in this country. It's not just for women's tennis in this country, for women's tennis in this country? It's not just for women's tennis in this country, for women's tennis all over the world. I mean, this is a real,

I'm getting spine tingles just thinking about it. I'm very bleary-eyed because I was up all night watching it. This is absolutely phenomenal. We've never seen anything like it. She's the first qualified male or female to reach a major Grand Slam final in 150 years history.

She didn't drop a single set along the way the tennis that she has played has been it's reduced people like martin and avratilova to sort of you know they don't know what how to describe it it's it's been called immaculate it's it's just stunning we've never seen anything like it before and i think for a sport that is constantly denigrated and constantly told, you know, women's tennis is just not as good as men's. And people still bang on about whether women should even earn as much as men because they play three sets. And yet here we are. All anybody is talking about is the women's game in this tournament, not just because of Emma Raducani, but also because of Leila Fernandez, the 19-year-old in the final. This is a watershed moment. And what's also nice, well, in fact, about both of these women, but also Emma, tennis is so often associated with being a white middle-class sport. And you look at Emma's

background, her mum's Chinese, her dad's Romanian. She epitomises Britain today, doesn't she? She does. And, you know, we've talked over the years about how inaccessible tennis is. It's about privilege. It's having the money to travel the world. Also very removed from normal life for many young people. You know, they don't normally go to a normal school in the way that Emma has done. And I think obviously we had the breakthrough of the Williams sisters and that was incredibly important for Black and Asian women around the world to be able to see that. And then Naomi Osaka, you know, and Coco Gauff. But these are women still very, very few and far between. And you can see what it means to have young women of different heritage

and talking about their heritage too, because I know Emma has spoken about, you know, her Chinese culture through her mum and that kind of self-belief that she feels she's inherited from her mum and that positivity that's been very important for her. We talked, I mentioned that to her teacher, to Rebecca Rogers, of course, she withdrew from Wimbledon, didn't she? With, I mean, we don't quite know what it was,

but essentially a kind of panic attack. It all got a bit too much for her which is absolutely understandable when she's 18 and not to mention the 18 months we've all lived through with Covid and challenges with training and stuff she has clearly grown a huge amount since then to be able to go and apply what she's learned so soon after at the US Open? I think this is the thing, you know, in the sports media, we're used to building up our British heroes and then seeing them crumple. And we always talk about the weight of the media and the weight of expectation and pressure.

And we're so awful to them in many instances that, you know, people just, it's a pressure pop that is difficult to withstand. And I think what is quite extraordinary about Emma and we saw it on the call overnight and we've seen it throughout this competition the way that she responds to pressure and the way she is able to stay in the moment is very unique but what happened at Wimbledon it was not only that she retired from that game after a lot of hype around her appearance as a wildcard at the tournament which in itself was extraordinary but the commentary the the amplification of that commentary afterwards

the likes of Piers Morgan being quite critical of her and then the subsequent public debate about whether she'd done the right thing whether she you know had the metal to be able to survive in the tennis world which is hugely pressured. I mean, it was it was really uncomfortable for me personally to hear that kind of discussion taking place about a teenager, for goodness sake. But what was cheering was that, A, people rallied round her. So Andy Murray and Marcus Rashford immediately hit back and said, no, we've got your back, Emma. You know, keep doing what you're doing. You're fantastic. And then the fact that I think she felt able to come out, speak to Sue Barker, appear on camera and talk through what had happened.

And then a matter of weeks later to come out and take this tournament by storm. I mean, for goodness sake, you know, don't we all want to be Emma Raducanu? Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about a piece which was written by Judy Murray, which was really interesting, talking about the idea of having to control almost how much tennis she plays right now and not being overwhelmed,

a bit like you've just said, with offers of getting a wild card here and a wild card there and just keeping focused. Would you agree with what judy murray is saying yeah i mean judy she's a columnist of ours at telegraph women's sport and she always speaks so well about the experiences of women in tennis in particular you know she was the fed cup captain and she's really nurtured young british tennis women players um and and campaigned and um

really for for their elevation and and a greater awareness of their rights. Because to be a woman in tennis is not easy. To be a tennis player full stop is very difficult. You know, it's a year round sport traveling for the vast majority of the year. And for a young person to do that away from family and friends is a huge amount of pressure. But as a woman to do it in a sport that okay it might look like 50 50 on court but actually the people running tennis the people coaching tennis the medics everybody behind the scenes are overwhelmingly male so for a young teenage girl to be surrounded by adult males advising her um it is very difficult for any young girl to be in that situation. And also being overwhelmingly written about and commentated on by men because the sports media is overwhelmingly male and white as well.

So those are very challenging dynamics. And I think what Judy picked up on with Emma is that she's she's got a very rounded upbringing. And, you know, the fact that she carried on her mainstream schooling, she was lucky enough that the Bromley Tennis Centre was next door to her her secondary school so she could easily switch between both worlds without having to kind of be isolated which I think is very mentally destabilizing it's important to stay grounded and she's got these amazing rounded interests architecture and jazz she's really interested in. She speaks three languages. So, you know, I mean, she's, yeah, she's got all the tools that you could possibly have. She has. She got an A and an A star in her A levels.

And I think from memory, it was in maths and economics. She's kind of these annoying people who's just brilliant at everything. But by goodness, we're behind her. Listen, thank you so much for speaking to us. That's Anna Kessel, who is the Women's Sports Editor at the Daily Telegraph. We also heard from Rebecca Rogers, who was Emma Raducanu's teacher at primary school

and saw her pick up a racket at four or five years old and have a rally with a coach. Quite incredible stuff. She is playing her final in the US Open tomorrow night. I think it's about nine o'clock UK time. Now, should all adults have a COVID booster or not? Well, the government certainly thinks so, with the Health Secretary Sajid Javid saying he was confident a booster programme would start later this month. Now, it's something the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation is grappling with, and we're turning to scientists to give us the answers. Well, this morning,

the face of Dame Sarah Gilbert, the scientist who led the team that developed the Oxford vaccine, is splashed across the front of the Daily Telegraph, saying there shouldn't be a mass booster programme, but she backs advice to give boosters to vulnerable people. Well, Dame Sarah Gilbert is with us on Woman's Hour this morning to talk about her latest award, being named the 49th winner of the Bold Woman Award, which honours inspirational women with a track record of success. We'll, of course, talk to her about that achievement in a moment. But first, Dame Sarah, thank you for joining us. Thank you. We're being inundated with messages this morning. I'll get through some of these from our listeners

about whether we should be having a booster programme or not, or whether the vaccines should be going to people in other countries around the world. You very clearly say in this article in Daily Telegraph today that there's no need for mass boosters. So if people are listening to this and they're confused, should they be having a booster if they're offered one? It's a very complicated situation. And newspaper headlines try to get the whole situation encapsulated in a few words, which are going to excite people's interest. And that's not actually a good way to be putting across the message here. We need to think about the different people in the population. It's really clear that people with compromised

immune systems benefit from having a third dose of the vaccine. That doesn't mean that that is going to apply to everybody. And we also need to be thinking about when boosters will be given. Because if we give them to everybody very early, then we may face a situation of seeing that the effect of that booster dose has declined before we actually see more cases coming in the winter season, which is when we would expect to see cases of a coronavirus like this. So it's not something that you can put across really in a newspaper headline. It's a lot more complicated than that. What I like to think about, though, is where we're using vaccine doses in the world.

And the problem is that we simply don't have enough of them. If we had enough doses to vaccinate everybody in the world with two doses, we wouldn't be having to have the discussions about should we use them in one country or another. And that's also very complicated because we have to think about which vaccines are available, where they are, what the expiry date for them is for those particular batches that we have now, whether it's feasible to transport them. And again, it's not a simple decision between use them here or use them there. If we had more vaccines that were being manufactured in many parts of the world, we wouldn't have the shortage of supply and we wouldn't be facing these decisions. So people who are immunocompromised, just to be clear, if people are listening to this at home and we want to give clear messages out to people,

if people are immunocompromised, you do think it's a good idea for them to have a booster jab. But for people who've had their two vaccines, they have sufficient immunity to not require one right now? It's not my role to give advice on this. This is what the JCVI does. But do you, I mean, that's what you're quoted as saying in the Daily Telegraph. That's not your view? My view is it's a very complex situation. It changes with time. It changes with increasing information. And we should allow the experts to fully assess all of the data and make the decision based on that.

Of course, one of the issues as well that people are talking about is whether 12 to 15-year-olds should be vaccinated. What are your views on that? Again, it's not a simple decision to make because it's not black and white. It's not true. Unfortunately, it's not true that the vaccine will not completely prevent infection or even transmission now that we have the Delta variant circulating. And so that makes it a much more complex picture. And all of that has to be taken into account. And again, not a simple yes, no answer. People often raise the issue of long COVID.

I mean, I don't know whether you're even able to get into this, but people say one of the reasons children should be vaccinated is because of long COVID. I mean, what are the dangers of that? What are your views on that? Well, we need to go back to the data that is there on long COVID in adults. And what we're seeing is that vaccination is roughly reducing by half the incidence of long COVID in adults. So again, it's not all or nothing. And that has to be factored into any other decisions. I'm interested in what you said a moment ago about we have to be careful when we do administer a booster jab because you don't want to do it too early so then people aren't protected for a expected winter

spike. So in that case I've seen reports of people suggesting that maybe it should be around October time that people should receive a booster because that would give them optimum immunity during that difficult period. Does that sound about right to you? Certainly the timing of booster doses has to be considered very carefully and it's not something that we want to rush into. We're thinking about the potential for new variants to arise as well. So far we're seeing good results with effectiveness against the variants that we have. It's possible that the Delta variant in future will be superseded by yet another variant that we aren't yet looking at. And again, that will be another factor that needs to be taken into account.

So it's a multifactorial situation and it's down to the JCVI to look at all of these points and decide what their recommendations are. Are you worried about the possibility of new variants that are even more challenging than the ones we have right now emerging because so many parts of the world are not even having a single vaccine right now? Yes, I mean, what we've seen is as the virus transmits between people, each time that happens, it has the opportunity to mutate and for new

variants to be selected. And if a virus has characteristics that make it better able to survive than the original, then that's what we end up with. And that's bad news for us. So we really need to be controlling the spread of this virus worldwide. And when we have countries where only 2% of the population has been vaccinated clearly we're not doing anything like enough to control the spread of the virus in those countries and it makes the whole world vulnerable. I mean it's been said many times where no one is safe until we're all safe. We have to think about this as a global issue and not just as a local issue. I want to talk about your award that you got last night, because I think it's really important to recognise that. You were named as the 49th winner of the Bold Woman Award.

I mean, you're a bold woman. Do you feel a bold woman this morning? Well, we have to think about what it means to be bold. And to me, what that means is to be confident, to go ahead and do something, to take action when we know that it's the right thing to do. And I've been working in vaccine development for about 25 years now. And for the last 10 or so years, been working on the development of vaccines against viruses that can cause outbreaks. So I had the right experience to respond at the beginning of 2020. And I'm lucky to work with a really talented team in Oxford that were then able to tap into expertise around the UK and other countries in the world to get this vaccine

development underway. So I think the bold aspect of that was saying, yes, we need to make this vaccine. We need to start now. We need to go as quickly as possible. And we need to make sure that we don't have any barriers put in the way of the progress. When you reflect on your work from starting to work and develop a vaccine through to where we are now, I mean, you must feel immense pride. But do you remember the moment when you realised we've done this? The best part of it for me was actually when somebody else

started to generate data on the use of our vaccine and it came from Scotland and I was present at a press conference where the effectiveness data so is the vaccine actually working to protect people in the general population who've been vaccinated that information was provided to us and it was really high effectiveness in adults over the age of 80 years. And they're a difficult population to protect with vaccines and we were seeing really great results. So that was the best moment when we saw that what we'd made, what we tested had been taken on by the NHS, used to vaccinate large numbers of very vulnerable people and it was working.

We'll talk about vaccine hesitancy in a moment, but I know one of the things people often bring up is how is it that scientists were able to create this vaccine so quickly? Just explain to us how you were able and your team were able to do that. Well, there are two reasons for that, really. One of them is the way we now make vaccines. And with the vaccine that we made and with the messenger RNA vaccines, which are in widespread use, those are what we call platform technologies. You don't have to wait to find out what virus is causing a disease, and then use the virus itself to start to develop a vaccine. You develop a technology that can be applied to develop vaccines against many different diseases. And we've been doing that in Oxford for many years. So we already knew how to manufacture the vaccines based on the adenovirus technology that we use. We know how to test them in the lab.

We know what dose we want to use in clinical trials. And we know what side effects we expect to see after vaccination. So a lot of the work had already been done before we even heard of SARS-CoV-2. And that was one reason we were able to move very quickly. And the other reason was because this was obviously such an important thing to do and get a licensed vaccine as quickly as possible, we were able to overlap procedures that we would normally do one after another. And the main reason for that was that money was made available more quickly. So we did manufacturing work at risk. We were manufacturing a vaccine, AstraZeneca was manufacturing a vaccine before they knew that it was going to be effective. Now, that's not a safety risk. That's a financial risk. If the vaccine had not been effective, all that work and all that

money they'd put into manufacturing the vaccine ready for supply would have been wasted. But we had to do that because when we found out that the vaccine was effective and it was licensed, we needed to have large supply ready so that we could start to vaccinate people. And that's a very unusual approach to take. If it had gone wrong, the company would have lost a lot of money. So for people who are listening, who are vaccine hesitant or people listening, knowing people who are like that, and they maybe have concerns over the speed with which it was developed or the possible long-term side effects that we don't yet know about, what would you say to them to convince them that actually it is the right thing to go and get a COVID vaccine? I would say that you should understand the reasons for the speed of development, as I've just explained, and no steps were missed. All of the normal regulatory processes were gone through.

The MHRA were very flexible in reviewing all of the data as soon as it became available, rather than waiting for all of the information in one go and then having to take time to review the whole data package. So that really helped us with getting approvals for trials and then the emergency use licensure as quickly as possible. That was the most time efficient way to do it. In terms of vaccine hesitancy, it's normal for people to worry. But I think if you understand why we were able to go so quickly, you'll see that actually in these clinical trials, we tested the vaccine in tens of thousands of people, and that's far more than normally included in vaccine trials. But so many of the vaccines that we're using now didn't have clinical trials tested in nearly so many people. And finally, and briefly, before I let you go,

it's so important for people to see women like you achieving greatness within the fields of science. Do you think enough is being done to attract young women and young girls into your area? Well, actually, in my area, we are predominantly female in the team that I work in. And it's an area of crossover between science and medicine that does seem to be a good area for women. I'm more concerned about areas such as engineering, other areas of technology, where we don't see as many women coming into the profession and more needs to be done in those fields to get women, first of all, training in those subjects, being employed in those subjects,

and then remove any barriers to advancement that there may be. Thank you so much for your time today. That is Dame Sarah Gilbert, the scientist who led the team that developed the oxford vaccine lots of you getting in touch with us this morning with your views on whether we should be having a mass booster program julie from pool says we shouldn't have booster jabs except for high risk individuals and groups i rarely contact radio stations but i feel so strongly that we have an obligation to pass the jabs to the rest of the world to help immunize people in countries where the vaccine is in short supply no matter what the reasons for the shortage.

Libby in Brighton says, as one of the main concerns about Covid is the way that it produces variants, surely the best way to ultimately protect everybody is to ensure as many people on the planet are vaccinated. That way, the risk of new variants are lowered. Also, it should be a moral obligation to support the developing countries with their vaccination programme. Thank you for your thoughts. Do get in touch with us with yours. You can text us on 84844 or you can get in touch via social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Now, Bridgerton, the Netflix smash hit TV show, was binge watched by millions over Christmas last year. In fact, Netflix estimates that by January 2021, more than 80 million households had watched it. Well, two young songwriters were so inspired by the series, they decided to write an unofficial Bridgerton musical over TikTok.

22-year-old singer-songwriter Abigail Barlow and 20-year-old pianist and composer Emily Baer have now composed an entire concept album, the unofficial Bridgerton musical, based on the songs they featured in their TikTok videos. It's coming out today and they're here with us. Good morning. Hi, good morning. Good morning. It's a very early morning for you because I know that you're in the US, so I'm incredibly grateful to you for getting up very, very early. Tell me, first of all, I mean, Abigail, you start. What is it about Bridgerton that inspired you to go down

this road? You know, I think there's so many elements of the TV show that lends itself to a stage. There's incredible drama, masterful storytelling, a character for everyone to relate to. And I think that's really important when you translate something to stage. And, you know, when I started writing the music, it just sort of was inspired by the dialogue that sounded like poetry. There were so many elements already in place in the TV show that made it just so ripe for musical creation. And Emily, how did you two come together in this collaboration? Well, Abigail and I met a couple years ago, actually. And we both grown up around a lot

of musical theater, but we had never actually ventured into writing it until we met. And as soon as we started writing together, we were like, oh, yeah, like, there's definitely something here, a partnership to be had. And so when I got a text from Abigail in like the middle of winter, like what if Bridgerton was a musical with the start of a song? I mean, it was incredible. And I had the same reaction as the rest of the world, which was a resounding absolute yes. And then we got in a room like two days later and everything kind of took off from there. Many people will listen saying, why on TikTok? It doesn't seem to be sort of the obvious place to create a musical, Abigail. Yeah, you'd be surprised. I mean, I think that TikTok is so ripe with talent, not just with musical talent, but talent of all kinds.

And the algorithm is so specific and so clear that even if you only have 50 followers, if you have good content and an idea that people like, there's a chance that the algorithm will show your video to millions of people. And that in and of itself is such like a great, I guess, creator of a space that's really safe for talent, where they can kind of grow their own organic audience. And I feel like that's what we did with this project. You know, it was very based in passion and just a love for the work. And I think it translated so much that our audience saw that as well and wanted to sort of be a part of it with us. And I mean that was like sorry go ahead no go ahead um that was the most incredible part to watch kind of unfold is that I mean we started this because we were inspired from a show and then from that there were like thousands and thousands of people that share their voices and talents and like

created entire choreographed dance numbers and like stage designs and playbills and shared their voices and started writing their own I mean like it was incredible to watch like I think TikTok was the absolute perfect place to do it because it's the most creative app by far well let's have a listen I've listened to so many of these but I'm sure people listening not everyone will have done so we're going to play one now it's called alone together and before we do Abigail just explain a little bit about the song if people haven't heard it yes totally so there's a moment in the tv show where the two main characters are alone together in an art gallery and they pretended to be in love for Outward's

appearances for a while now and they're just now realizing that they feel a little different about each other now and it's very it's a very intense moment that's not really expressed on the tv show but we sort of took the idea and really told what they were thinking in that moment. Let's have a listen. Alone together Alone together In the gallery And she's just out of reach Alone together And just for a moment Feels like I'll never be alone again

Abigail, you've got such a beautiful voice. It's made me all gasp impolite to listen to that. Have you had any reaction? I mean, Emily, has Netflix got in touch and said, this is great, we're backing you? I mean, they have given us the blessing to put out the album which was really so lovely of them um and then whether or not this kind of turns into a musical we'll see i mean if you'd ever want to close the door because i think both of us would

absolutely die to see this on stage like it would just be so perfect and there's so much interest in bridgerton and also i mean as well it's the classical versions of the pop songs, isn the boundaries of what pop could be in musical theatre. And it was a really exciting project to begin and finish. So we're just excited to have it out now. And Emily, for you, how much of an inspiration was that? Because it is very clever the way they take the pop song and give it like the classical twist. Yeah, I mean, I feel like that influenced our writing and my orchestration. And that crossing of the genre is what I think attracted so many people to Bridgerton in the first place. And we definitely wanted to carry that voice through in our music and kind of just step it up a notch.

But yeah, I mean, we were truly just so inspired by the show. It was an escape for so many people during a really, really dark time. And it truly saved our COVID heads. I can understand that. Listen, best of luck. And thank you so much for getting up incredibly early in the US to come and speak to us here on Woman's Hour. And of course, if it does become a Broadway musical, please do come back and speak to us about it.

Oh, absolutely. We will. Take care now. Thank you so much. That's Abigail Barlow, who's a singer-songwriter, and Emily Bear, who's 20, and they have come up with the unofficial Bridgerton musical. If you want to get in touch with us here this morning on Woman's Hour, asking you whether you think there should be a mass booster programme, do you think it's the right thing to do? Dame Sarah Gilbert speaking to us earlier on from the oxford astrazeneca um jab she was talking to us she's the lead scientist on that and she was

talking about she doesn't necessarily think that that is necessary if everyone has had two jabs your thoughts welcome 84844 on the text or you can get in touch on social media it's at bbc woman's hour now the tal Taliban promised to have an inclusive government when it came to power in Afghanistan just over three weeks ago. But earlier this week, it unveiled its interim government with an all-male cabinet, including an interior minister who is on the FBI's most wanted list. On social media, footage appeared showing women protesting

those announcements being whipped by a Taliban fighter. Well, since then, the Taliban's new interior ministry have issued their first decree banning any protests that do not have official approval. Another senior Taliban official has said that Afghan women will be banned from playing sport. Well, I spoke to BBC Persian correspondent Sana Safi and I began by asking her about the women who've been protesting on the streets of Afghanistan and the price they paid for it. Ever since the Taliban announced some restrictions on female segregations, for example, in schools and universities, the resistance in pensure and the blockade there, people were struggling with food, with internet and everything else. And the banks were shut. Women were told not to come into the offices because their fighters are not trained or Taliban fighters are not trained to deal with civilians. So everything just came together and sparked this anger that was brewing in the society anyway. And that forced people to come on the streets. And most of them were women. Yes, they were directed by different groups because there is

this thinking that strike while the iron is hot because the Taliban are doing all these horrible things and you need to come out and voice your concerns. But there's also a group who say, give the Taliban some time because it's still early days. Let's see what they're doing. But I think for most women, it's pretty clear what they're doing. They are going to be imposing sort of restrictions that many Afghan women are not used to and simply they're not prepared to put up with. Are you getting a sense from speaking to your friends, your colleagues, your family in Afghanistan, that women are prepared to listen and stop these protests?

Or do you get a sense they'll continue despite this ban? I think some of them will continue. There is a group that is ready to go onto the streets and demand their rights at any cost whatsoever. Then you have these slightly pockets of resistance, but they're quiet. The goal is the same. It's just how much violence can you take? So some women are saying, hang on a minute, we cannot face days and nights in jail. We cannot be tortured.

We cannot allow ourselves to be enforced, disappeared, because that is the tactic that has been used. So people are taken from the streets and then you don't know where they are for days and even weeks. It hasn't happened to women yet, but given how things were in the past, I think they can envision the sort of scenario that their mothers and grandmothers may have dealt with under the communists. So there are both groups, and I think the ones who are ready to go onto the streets will continue to go onto the streets and demand what they think they deserve and what, frankly, they do deserve. And what we mustn't forget, of course, is that many Afghans have grown up under a Western-style government. Girls have been allowed to have an education. Women have had jobs, a degree of independence. Do you feel that women

and girls will suddenly accept after 20 years being told, no, you can no longer do this? Or do you get a sense there will be a growing uprising and discontentment and a will to have their voices heard? You're right to say that the last 20 years have been very free for afghans in the entire region but afghans by nature have never ruled under authoritarian dictatorial regimes like you see in the region in the neighboring countries so they by nature are very free spirited yes their economy was weak and yes the political systems were weak but they're just not used to the sort of restrictions that people experience in other countries, for example. So especially the last 20 years, women have been living like women in the West for most

parts, especially in bigger provincial capitals. And I don't think they will easily just accept what the Taliban demand. And if you look at the Taliban, if you look at their cabinet, it's all male, it's all mullah or religious. They're not even scholars, but they have this title that associates them with religion. Most of them have not had high education. So some of the women on the streets of Kabul are probably far more qualified than the people currently running the ministries

or even the government. And it's a minority. They come from one ethnic group. Just for clarity's sake, I belong to that ethnic group, the Pashtuns. 33 of the Taliban members are Pashtuns. And Afghanistan is a very diverse country. You've got the Tajiks, the Whizbeks, the Hazaras,

and different other ethnic groups there. And we all have our own little cultural variations that bring us together under the umbrella that's Afghanistan. So I think women will find it really hard to accept the rule of a very homogenous male, middle-aged, sometimes old and less educated group. And they would just put up with it. You talk about that cabinet being entirely male.

They did talk, the Taliban, about having an inclusive government with female positions at a lower level. That clearly hasn't happened. Will anyone be speaking up for the rights of women? And will there be any chance in the future, in your view, for women to be included in that Taliban government? I don't think women will be allowed to occupy senior posts because for the Taliban, it's an ideological position. It's a theological position. It's not something that you can compromise over. Unless Saudi Arabia comes out and says, hey, the Taliban, what you're doing, according to religion, because Saudi is seen as, you know, the leaders of the Muslim world, especially the Sunni faith, what you're doing is wrong. You need to, I don't know,

moderate and whatever. If they're willing to come and force the Taliban to this reform, the Taliban will not allow women to occupy a senior position because for them, that's a deal breaker. That's what they feel they fought for the past 20 years. They want a pure Islamic system, a system that most Muslim countries do not exercise. When you're talking about a pure Islamic system, another thing the Taliban has said is doing is banning women playing sport. I mean, I read some reports of members of the women's Afghan football team actually burning their shirts, deleting their social media accounts as the Taliban were approaching Kabul for fear of reprisals. We know there's been a particular mention of cricket, that women are not going to be allowed to play cricket in Afghanistan. Are female cricketers and sportswomen in danger in the country? Absolutely. And that shouldn't be a surprise. If you look at the Taliban ideology,

they are opposed to women in public, full stop. And if you're coming out playing a sport that for them is very provocative, in their view, they have a very outdated view of women. They want women to be at home and to just have children because that's their job. And that's what most of their senior leaders have said. They have not evolved in their thinking when they talk about women. And frankly, they do not regard women as equal. So if you're putting them on a cricket field, you are giving women the same position as men. You're regarding them as equal. And for them, that shouldn't be the case. Women are not equal and therefore they should stay at home

and do what's required of them traditionally. So Sana, on the eve of the 20th anniversary of the attacks of 9-11, what is the sense on the ground from your contacts in Afghanistan? The sense on the ground is one of betrayal, one of disappointment, and one of heartbreak, to be honest. Because for those Afghans who remember 9-11, for those Afghans who remember what happened just after 9-11 and just two days before 9-11. So I'm talking about the killing of the resistant leader, Ahmad Shah Massoud. Then you have 9-11. Then after 9-11, you had the airstrikes in the killing of the resistant leader, Ahmad Shah Massoud. Then you have 9-11. Then after 9-11, you had the airstrikes in the east of Afghanistan.

Then it was full-on U.S. involvement. For those who remember all of that, they are very disappointed because we have come full circle. And for them, what was the last 20 years for? It was just a waste. Now you have an all-male cabinet. You have the same regime that after 9-11 they were toppled. You have the same people who will shelter,

the same elements who will probably carry out a similar attack should they be able to. So for them, it's one of, I think it's pretty dark times for most people who are old enough to remember 9-11. And that was BBC Persian correspondent Sana Safi speaking to me earlier on. Dame Sarah Gilbert, the lead scientist on the team who developed the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine, was speaking to us earlier on on Women's Hour, saying that she felt it was unnecessary for everybody to have a COVID booster.

Lots of you sharing your thoughts this morning. Penny from Thornbury says, I'm 73. I'm a volunteer in the Oxford AstraZeneca trial. I was vaccinated in September and October last year and now on a booster trial, vaccinated on the 18th of July, because I believe it's absolutely vital to have as much protection as we can. Catherine has also got in touch saying, speaking almost unanimously for my friends, we don't want or need a booster. Neither do we require our kids to be vaccinated. Rather, keep us safe by vaccinating the third world. No one is safe

until we are all safe. Thank you for your thoughts. You can carry on getting in touch 84844 on the text or at BBC Woman's Hour on social media. Now in May this year the comedian Sophie Willan won a BAFTA for best comedy writing for the pilot episode of her BBC2 comedy Alma's Not Normal. Now her reaction on social media to that win is really worth watching because she runs around a farm in a red sequined dress, swearing with joy, and it is just delightful. Well, she has now been commissioned for a six-part series on BBC Two. It begins on Monday night. It's drawn from her own experiences.

She plays the central character, Alma, who grew up in and out of the care system in Bolton. And we find her eternally optimistic with no job or qualifications, trying to get her life on track and follow her dreams here she is with her friend Leanne played by Jade Adams chatting and eating kebabs on the street after a drunken night out now I'm going to sort everything out now on my own I'm I'm I'm going to get some acting work and I'm going to sort my family out and then I'm going to get a real job.

And, you know, I want to learn Spanish. I think I want to start tap dancing. Maybe. Just start with a job first, eh? Yeah. Doing what? Well, what skills do you have? I can hold a three-litre bottle of cider under my left tip of the hands.

I don't think that's a transferable skill, babe. You'd be surprised. We can speak to Sophie now. Morning, Sophie. Morning. I can't believe we got that on at breakfast time. Well, you know, we like to push it a bit here on Woman's Hour. The question I've obviously got to ask you first of all is, is that true? Can you get the three litre of cider under your left

breast? It is a talent. It is a party trick party trick it can clear a room it's not an ideal party trick but uh it is one I do have I like the fact it's true tell us about Alma because I watched the first episode and really fell in love with Alma I I wanted to kind of protect her I didn't feel sorry for her you don't feel pity towards her but but I did kind of feel that I wanted to kind of protect her. I didn't feel sorry for her. You don't feel pity towards her. But I did kind of feel that I wanted to help her. Yeah, I think she's very optimistic slash deluded, depending on how you interpret her, really. She's full of life, full of joy, has an idea of herself

that is beyond her actual current situation. I mean, there's a line in it where she says she's eating a pot noodle and she says I feel I've been born in the wrong social bracket I should have been a baroness or a Kardashian which I relate to again I've had that same conversation with my auntie eating a pot noodle and just thought oh what we're doing here we should be I don't know where we should be in Miami or Hollywood so you know I do quite like that silliness of Alma you know um and she's got obviously a best mate she comes from an eccentric family of women complicated women and she kind of navigates that kind of the complexities really sometimes well and sometimes not so well and how much of it is drawn on your own personal experiences?

Quite a bit of it's drawn on my personal experiences, but there is a joy in doing something fictional. You know, it's quite a refreshing thing. She's a different age to me. She's a bit younger, obviously different names. And, you know, her experiences are slightly different, which again just opens things up a bit, doesn't it? You don't have to feel stuck with your own experiences.

You know, you can open it to include other experiences and fictional experiences. There was an amazing moment in the first episode where Alma gets expelled from school for turning up drunk wearing a bikini. And I need to know if this is truth or fiction. That was true. What happened? Well, actually, I i got the letter i've still got the letter actually from my headmaster he might be listening because he likes radio 4 don't you mr viggan if you're there and we get on really well now he sent me a letter from school just saying sophie uh arrives at school regularly arrives at school in non-uniform. And then it says in brackets, a bikini on one occasion.

So it's quite daft to read it, actually. I feel like he must have known when he was writing it. There's a sort of sense of humour in the writing. Tell me, you mentioned about the complicated relationship Alma has with her mother, who is a drug addict. She has mental health issues. Her grandmother, who's really quite eccentric and really tries to look after Alma.

I mean, this could have been a really dark, a bit miserable, depressing element of the story, but it's not. It kind of gives hope in a weird way. And I just wonder how important that was for you to portray that in that way. I think really important. I think, you know, with care leavers and with people, you know, with addiction and mental health problems,

they're always depicted in a very intense way. You know, it's always very harrowing and very dark and very sad. The reality is these are just real normal people and actually the full human beings, you know know and they have their good qualities and bad qualities I think for me I wanted to just present a very full human being that's very lovable as well you know Alma's mum is a very lovable person and I think that's really important to show I think people like Lynn get demonized a lot in society and I think I just wanted to show that actually there's more to her than the initial fear, you know.

And when you talk about demonisation, Alma also, I mean, she wants to be an actress, but she ends up escorting and getting into sex work. I mean, she's kind of, she's quite open. She's sort of happy about doing it. And once again, that is a decision some people make in life, which can often be demonised, but you're not portraying it in that way. No. And again, with the escorting storyline, I wanted to show a really nuanced perspective on that.

So Leanne and Alma get into an argument about escorting, whether it's empowering, whether it's not empowering. And I wanted to just present both sides of that discussion without giving a final conclusion, because I think everybody's got an opinion about sex workers and how they should work and whether it's feminist. It's a feminist issue and it never is actually given to the sex worker to decide whether they find it a feminist issue. So I wanted to present all sides of it, really. And I think often what happens with sex workers is, you know, they're pushed into being kind of defensively optimistic about it as well and be like you know I'm empowered I'm going to do a solo show about it or write a letter to the Guardian you know and actually it's like any job isn't it it has its ups and its downs you know it can be empowering and disempowering. I want to talk about your your route into the industry and how challenging it was because you got your BAFTA

for the pilot but it took quite a while to get this off the ground and I'm just wondering as a as a northern working class woman who was in care how hard is it I think I know the answer to break into comedy in the TV industry it's it's pretty tough yeah it's quite tough but I suppose the thing is I always knew I wanted to do it I was very lucky that I kind of got the bug for comedy really young you know I wanted to write and perform I used to sit on the step at my grandma's house and read Alan Bennett monologues and learn them as a child you know love Julie Walters love Victoria Wood so for me it was always going to happen eventually I just had to wait for the industry to catch up and be ready to have me.

So what are those barriers? Is it the gatekeepers? Is it the commissioners? Is it the people? I think it's not very diverse from the gatekeepers' perspective. You know, I think ultimately it's all nice having all these different kind of tokenistic approaches to getting things on the screen. But in reality, I think you need the gatekeepers to be more diverse themselves so that they authentically go out and find work that they relate and connect to because comedy is so subjective so I think you want just a wider stroke of people behind the scenes you know not just you know I had my first script commission in 2014 from a northern woman coincidentally or, but we couldn't get it past her. When it went to London, it was BBC Comedy North, then it bobbed down to London.

We couldn't get it past one eaten boy commissioner who just said, female heroin addicts are very frightening to see on screen. It will not be funny. That was his feedback. And obviously we were just completely different kettle of fish. So he didn't know me from adam he didn't relate to me so it just it died in the water there so i think again it's about having that diversity in her listen it's been really lovely to speak to you thank you so much and you really made me laugh out loud when i watched it yesterday i'm going to watch the rest of the series i know it is is on BBC Two. It's a six-part series. It starts on Monday night. It's called Alma's Not Normal. And that was Sophie Willan, who was speaking to me.

Good to speak to you. Now, the 21-year-old singer-songwriter Arlo Parks has won the 2021 Mercury Music Prize for her debut album, Collapsed in Sunbeams. The judges praised her singular voice. Well, Parks, who was left completely speechless by her victory, is the first Mercury Prize winner to be born in the 21st century. We spoke to her on Woman's Hour back in February when her album was released. And Arlo specially recorded a version of Green Eyes just for us. Here's a reminder of her wonderful voice.

Summer in my eyelids Here's a reminder of her wonderful voice. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. I hope you can join us again next time. Dragon fruit and peaches in the wine Kissing circles underneath you That's all from today's Woman's Hour. I hope you can join us again next time. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr Michael Moseley, and in my podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. From eating some dark chocolate.

Mmm, that was really good. ..to improve your heart. To playing video games to enhance your brain power. Oh, dear. I've been slaughtered, haven't I? Or singing your favourite songs to bolster your immune system. So, to benefit your brain and body in ways you might not expect, here's just one thing you can do right now. Subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.