Woman's Hour - Comfort: A Woman's Hour Christmas Day special

Episode Date: December 25, 2024

As this is the season of Comfort & Joy, today’s programme is devoted to the theme of ‘Comfort’. At this time of year when many women are frazzled and craving a bit of comfort, Nuala McGovern and Anita Rani explore why it so important with their guests. Fiona Murden is an organisational psychologist, award winning author of the books Defining You and Mirror Thinking and host of the podcast Dot to Dot – Life Connected. She explains what comfort is, why we crave it and why it’s necessary, but she also discusses the importance of sometimes pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone. Molly Case is a former cardiac care nurse and now works in palliative and end of life care. She works out what matters most to the people she cares for and how she can provide a level of comfort for them.The Reverend Bryony Taylor is a priest in the Church of England and works as Rector of Barlborough and Clowne in the Derby Diocese. She is also the author of More TV Vicar? a book about Christians on the television. She describes how faith can be a source of comfort for many people, especially at this time of year.The food writer Grace Dent, and chef and restauranteur Dipna Anand, recall the favourite foods from childhood that bring them emotional comfort and bring back happy and nostalgic memories, as well as what they will be having for Christmas. Hygge took the world by storm when Meik Wiking published The Little Book of Hygge – The Danish Way to Live Well in 2016. Hygge has been described as a quality of cosiness and comfortable conviviality that engenders a feeling of contentment or wellbeing. Anita and Nuala are joined by Becci Coombes, whose father is Danish. She grew up with a love of all things Hygge and runs an online business - Hygge Style.  The band The Unthanks are known for combining traditional English folk, particularly Northumbrian folk music, with other musical genres. They have just finished a UK tour, and they have a new album out – The Unthanks In Winter. They perform two songs live in the studio: Bleary Winter and The Cherry Tree Carol.Presented by Nuala McGovern and Anita Rani. Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and a very Merry Christmas from us all here at Woman's Hour. Welcome to our Christmas Day edition of the programme with me, Nuala McGovern. And me, Anita Rani. Isn't this exciting? This is very exciting. Both of us together. And as this is the season of comfort and joy, today's programme is devoted to the theme of comfort. At this time of year, especially when

many women are frazzled and craving a bit of comfort, over the next hour, along with our guests, we'll explore why it's so important socially, physically and mentally. And as well as that, we have incredible music from The Unthanks. And we'll discuss how comfort can be found through music as it bolsters us and lifts your mood. We're also going to take a look at how nursing care can relieve discomfort and have a positive effect on our well-being. Molly Case will be here. Also, the Reverend Bryony Taylor to explain how faith can provide comfort for some.

The food writer Grace Dent and chef and restauranteur Dipna Anand are here to discuss their favourite foods that bring emotional comfort and those happy memories and nostalgic memories that are here to discuss their favourite foods that bring emotional comfort and those happy memories and nostalgic memories that are brought back through food. We also want to talk about hygge.

Did you say that right? I'm trying my best. I think you did. Becky Coombs may correct me. She will be talking about that. We're also joined by psychologist Fiona Murden who will explain why it's important

but also discuss the importance of pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone. Yes, we are not live today, but you can join the conversation on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, you can email us through our website and check our Instagram for videos of us in the studio. So as we get started, make sure, OK, everything in the oven, ready to go. Get comfortable, settle down, a cup of, well, whatever your favourite tipple might be. It is Christmas after all. Now, to start, what is comfort? How do we define it?

Why do we crave it? And maybe most importantly, how can we achieve it? Anita, if I say comfort to you, what is it? What comes to mind? I've actually brought some bits and pieces in that make me think of comfort. I've brought this little jar in from my own kitchen cabinet. Smell that. So in there is fennel and I've put some cardamom pods in because I have a little ritual every Thursday and Friday morning when I come to do Woman's Hour. I have my own mug that I bring from home. It's a China mug.

It's beautiful. It's a teal color, like kind of a bluey teal. Yeah, it's got elephants on it. I bought this in India because tea tastes better in China. And when I'm at home, I put a cardamom pod in my tea because there's something about cardamom in tea and makes me think of chai that I find incredibly soothing. And the older I'm getting, as it turns out, I'm turning into my mum. That's another program for another day. I find that incredibly comforting.

So the tea, and I've also brought in a little jar of oil because I love a massage, a bit of self-care, me time and also touch. There's something very comforting in touch. I love everything that you've brought in. I totally would buy into all of those. But mine, I have something that I said I would never wear and they have become, what would I say, a daily habit, which are, you know, those Birkenstocks with the fur? Oh, yeah. Birks with the fur. I have them on my feet right now for our Christmas programme. So that brings a little bit of comfort. How comfy are your feet right now?

They're very comfortable. They're grounded. They're on and ready to go for an hour of programming. I also brought in with me a wrap that I have that is of cashmere, albeit with a couple of little moth holes living in London that's what happens but I was given it about for my 40th so we're talking 13 years ago by two of my best pals and it has come with me to so many places around the world if you're like on a grotty flight or a room somewhere you wrap yourself up in it and all of a sudden it feels very luxurious.

It works as a blanket on your bed, no matter what that bed is like. And for me, it's always a little bit of comfort. Cozy. Yeah, look, I've brought my cashmere cardigan that's sitting behind me. I thought when I got that, I thought that's it, I've become a grown up. That's it. When you discover a bit of cashmere. Just before we move on to our show, you come into the studio, you have tea ready to go. That kind of makes you feel more comfortable. Yes. How about you?

Lippy? I do the red lipstick. Is it true you dance around the studio when I'm not here? I do. And it's true, but people can see it because what I do is I do this thing

because obviously Instagram, social media and Women's Hour are two separate things. And people don't really know that who I am on Instagram is also a Women's Hour presenter. So I do, I dance in the studio. There's something about music and movement in my body that grounds me because this is, you know, we're going to be talking about stepping out of our comfort zones. Yes. Presenting Women's Hour makes you step out of your comfort zone to some extent and that makes me feel quite ready in my body, releases some energy and sort of focuses my mind.

Also, it makes me feel a bit silly and I like play and silliness. That is all very good things. Let us get going and let's begin with one of our studio guests. Yes, we are joined in the studio by psychologist Fiona Murden. Fiona, welcome. Thank goodness you're here to explain what comfort is. How do you define it? I think it's really interesting

because it's all the things you've said. It's all of the elements that you've talked about are to do with your senses. So you've talked about touch, you've talked about smell, you've talked about familiarity as well. And these things are what give us that sense of calm and security. And from a psychological standpoint, that's really what it's all about.

It's that base level of safety and security and the place that we feel we're OK and we can relax into ourselves. So anything like that. And that can be through movement. It can be through ritual. And everyone has different ways of getting to that place. But that's really what it's about from a psychological standpoint. If we're someone who, for example, lives in a high stress environment, so you, Molly, you work in a high stress environment where you're dealing with palliative care. And in that environment, you're constantly actually outside of your comfort zone. You're pushing against the limits of what's feasible for your brain a lot of the time. And we need that to be able, our comfort to be able to revive, to relax, to regenerate. And if we don't do that, we burn out. I'm thinking about today in particular,

because it's Christmas Day. And we have people up and down the country listening to us, probably in two extreme states. They're in a high stress environment, probably right now, it's just after 10am, there'll be all sorts of shenanigans going on in the kitchen. But also it's the day of comfort and joy. It's the day where the whole family's around. There'll be lots of relaxing. So what is happening? You've got the sort of push and pull of the two things together.

Is it a comfortable day or is it a high stress day? Well, I think it is both. And I think there's also to some people there's that feeling of guilt because I should be enjoying this. I should feel like it's comfort. I should feel it's wonderful. But oh, my goodness, I've got to get the potatoes in the oven. I've got to make sure everyone's all right. Auntie June is arguing with Uncle Fred.

And you don't like Auntie June anyway. Exactly. So it's hard because it also brings in many of the elements that are comfort to us. So, well well we'll talk about food there's family there's familiarity there's ritual there's wonderful smells there's lots that is comfort but you're right we have this sort of antagonistic position where we have both elements existing at the same time i feel like we need to lean in and talk directly to whoever is in the kitchen who's in that high stress environment right now.

What's the best way of achieving comfort today? For that person? Yeah, that person. I'd say run away and hide. Down tools, down tools, grab the bottle and let anybody else take over. Okay, but not just for that person then. What are the best ways of achieving comfort?

You've explained some of the things and Nuala and I have talked about what makes us feel comfort. But if people aren't used to it, how should they find it for themselves? It's a really good question. And it's actually can be more tricky than you think, because I would say, well, firstly, notice what makes you feel that way. But for some people, particularly in caring roles like nursing or those sorts of roles, they're so wrapped up with what they're doing that they don't actually know what makes them feel OK or relaxed. So it can be trickier than you think.

And when that's the case, it's really saying to other people, when do you notice me relax most? When do you notice me just kind of go, what is it that I'm doing? The people that care about you, because the likelihood is that if you're not sure yourself, they will have noticed and then start piecing the things together and almost create your own little library of things that you can go to. When I was working with frontliners actually in ICU during the pandemic that was one of the things we did we'd say what is it what are your go-tos so when things are really really bad and you know sometimes they'd look at me because we'd be between waves

and like why are we doing this but actually it's when we're okay that we need to fill up our library of things yeah so that they're ready for us when we're not okay when you're okay that we need to fill up our library of things so that they're ready for us when we're not okay. When you're not in action mode. So what makes you feel comfort? Me? Yeah. Well, my family, friends, snowboarding. Oh, yeah.

I find it really calming and soothing in a very peculiar way because I like doing stuff that's really scary, but it makes me feel better. Yeah, I can relate to that. And then the English accent, because I'm spending a lot of time in the States, if I hear an English accent, I'm like, hello. So how comfortable are you right now?

Oh, it's great. Wonderful. Well, stay with us, Fiona, because later on in the programme, we're going to be discussing getting out of your comfort zone with you. And we did have one listener, Elizabeth, who got in touch about getting out

of the comfort zone. If you want to get in touch, we are not live, but we would love to hear your thoughts. This was Elizabeth. She says, last year I had both hips replaced. I'm horse riding again. I never thought I'd be able to. Yesterday was my 73rd birthday. Three weeks ago on holiday, I passed my open water scuba certificate. The instructor said that after he passed me that he didn't think I'd be able to finish the course and I was the oldest person he'd taken through from scratch. Next year,

I want to get my full motorbike licence. In my head, I'm 35. So comfort zones, getting out of them. We'll talk about that a little later too. Love Elizabeth.

Interesting as well, Fiona, getting out of your comfort zone and away snowboarding is a thing that brought you comfort, which I also find interesting. But I want to talk about faith next because that, of course, particularly on this day, people can be thinking about it. It can be a great source of comfort for many people. The Reverend Bryony Taylor is a priest in the Church of England, works as rector of Balbara and Clown in the Derby Diocese.

She's also the author of More TV, Vicar. A book about Christians on the television, which does happen around Christmas too. She joins us on the line. Good to see you, Reverend. What about faith? Also at other times of the year for you, for your parishioners? How can it be a source of comfort?

Good to have you with us. How can it be a source of comfort? I think particularly at Christmas time, it tends to be often the time that people come to church and there's something comforting about being around your family, being with the familiar carols. I learnt very early on in my career as a priest that you don't mess around with your carol services. You don't try and introduce anything modern or new.

People want the comfort of the stuff that they remember from their childhood. So faith really comes to the fore around Christmastime. It's one of the few times that we actually sort of get talked to by the wider culture, which is really fun. Isn't that interesting, though, because it's nostalgia that is bringing comfort, I think, as you describe it there. But nostalgia, I often think of as a somewhat slightly melancholic emotion as well. It can be, yeah. But I think nostalgia is actually good for us as well. I think we might be talking a bit about music,

but I read something that was saying that if you're feeling a bit down, it's a good idea to listen to the music that you loved when you were a teenager, because something happens, there's some research being done, and it's called neural nostalgia. And the music you listen to while your brain is developing binds to your brain in a different way from music that you hear as an adult. So there's a reason why when you listen to a song from your teenage years, it gives you this massive boost of energy. And in lockdown, I listened to a lot of 90s music for that exact reason,

and it brought me a tremendous amount of comfort. So I think nostalgia, it can be melancholic, but it can also really give you a bit of a boost and a boost of comfort i'd actually like to know what you were listening to brianie what was the album lots of brit pop but you know tv can bring comfort you're known as as a tv vicar i think i was watching reruns of the vicar of dibbley which i find incredibly uh comforting tv anything that comes across to you about Christians on television

or what might bring comfort in that respect to your parishioners? Certainly, Vicar of Dibley has definitely become a kind of standard thing I have to watch at Christmas time. And my life often reflects the character of Geraldine Granger.

But the way that the Vicar of Dibley was made, it was made to be a comforting programme. If you look at the way that they filmed it, it's this kind of fantasy little village that's never really existed and it's a sort of fantasy little church. And it's full of the ideas of comfort, really, and of being with other people and a kind of nostalgia

for a different time, really, in a lot of ways. You're going to stay with us, which is terrific. But I'm just wondering now, what would you say is your number one go-to comfort on Christmas, around Christmas? I think it's listening to Christmas music, singing the Christmas carols. That's just something that you just immediately, when I'm putting up my Christmas tree, I always watch Muppets Christmas Carol, the movie.

I love the songs in that as well. Definitely Christmas carols. That brings me to run a sense of comfort around Christmas time and the words of them are so special as well. Thank you for that. Yeah, that's coming up. Completely agree. Completely agree.

I love a carol. I've been singing carols all month since the beginning of December. We have a little treat coming up for our listeners in the not too distant-distant future. Stay with us here on Women's Hour as we talk about music and that can comfort us. The Reverend Bryony Taylor is going to stay with us for the rest of the programme, but we do have other guests to introduce you to. Now, one of the times we most crave comfort is, of course, when we are ill and at our most vulnerable.

Well, Molly Case is a former cardiac care nurse and now works in palliative and end-of-life care at a hospice and provides care in the community. In her current role Molly looks after five London boroughs with people from a diverse range of backgrounds and spirituality. In April 2013 Molly achieved national recognition after performing her poem Nursing the Nation at the Royal College of Nursing, gaining over 350,000 views on YouTube. And she's also the author of the book, How to Treat People. Molly, welcome. Happy Christmas.

Lovely. Are you comfortable? I'm so comfortable. I've got my shoes on. Lovely. And my new dog socks on. I'm very comfortable. Very good.

That's important to know. We hear the phrase to make someone comfortable a lot. What does that actually mean? Absolutely. So as you said, my role is working in the community to make people comfortable in their own homes. Most people want to die and be comfortable in their own homes at the end of their life. I want to also just clarify that palliative and end-of-life care do mean different things. A person can have palliative needs but not be dying, just have a condition that

may be life-limiting. It may end their life or, you know, as my dad often says, he might get hit by the 208 bus and that will do it instead. But I think to provide comfort in my role as a clinical nurse specialist for palliative and end-of-life care it's about seeing the person as a whole so holistically um seeing them entirely as a as a spiritual person as a person who has financial worries physical symptoms kind of psychological self um and actually this is really what palliative care is built on um you know what matters most to you now and and at the end of your life. It doesn't really change, I think, if we asked around the table, which is kind of what we're doing.

I mean, you see people in the most vulnerable state in their life. I just wonder if you see any patterns happen. What is it that people crave at that point? What is it? What does make them comfortable? That's a brilliant question. That's a really interesting question. And I think it does vary. comfortable that's a brilliant question um that's a really interesting question and i think it does vary um i think what you were saying fiona about being out of a comfort zone and that level

of kind of stress i think uncertainty is terribly terribly frightening for a lot of people of course um living with that level of uncertainty you know our lives are touchwood here in the uk relatively certain we wake up we have our jagged potato know, as I did this morning and those types of things. And I think for most people that I look after, it's simply knowing a really interesting thing to know that actually just being with someone yes we're providing very expert kind of symptom control and medication management but it's a bit like my sister who's a midwife you know the word midwife kind of being with the woman it's it's not about the the clinician being a woman it's being with them it's the same in in death it's it's about being there and letting that person know that you that they're there that they're seen that they're valued and yeah and you worked in covid care during the pandemic how much comfort were you able to provide in such a fraught

situation that was a very difficult time for for everybody um and a very strange concept as a nurse, really. So I think to provide comfort, the things that I think were helpful were sound, you know, the kind of hearing, so the iPad so that they could speak to their family, putting music under the pillows on the iPhone, because, you know, I'm a very kind of musical person and I know that would bring me comfort. And we know that you can hear to the very end of your life so I think I like to hope that that was helpful

and how did you find comfort yourself in that incredibly stressful situation camaraderie of colleagues yeah it's I mean it's there's nothing like being a nurse I love my job so much it's a very difficult job it's like I can only assume, you know, going through a kind of mutual trauma like a war or something like that. I've never experienced that. But the camaraderie of your colleagues just uplifts you. And yeah, it's helpful. I've got this thought in my mind that I would love to share with you, actually.

Maybe it's because we've just been speaking to Bryony and the conversation we're having. And it's making me think of my nan when she was breathing her last in hospital and what she wanted I mean she had a very it was a beautiful death in a if that's just not a strange thing to say she had all the family around her she just wanted to listen to seek prayers the chanting of her faith and in that moment everything I've ever questioned about faith just sort of made sense it was distilled in that moment that this is what it's all about that my nan in as she's breathing her last has this thing that's providing her extreme comfort just this beautiful chanting it's soothing her in her ears

and it kind of i don't know brianie what you think i'd like to bring you in on that as well as we as we have somebody as i'm trailing off on my thought it's not I didn't really have much more to say about it other than that you know just to share that experience that I had when I watched my nan feel immense comfort in probably the most terrifying time of her life it's absolutely the case I'm sure it's true with all people of faith really if you have prayers that are familiar to you I notice when I go to see somebody when they're at end of life and they might be completely out of it, really. But I'll say, should we say the Lord's Prayer? And I start to say it and I can see them trying to mouth the words. It just it's like muscle memory. It just kind of it comes out.

And it's just something that's kind of so ingrained in us. And actually, interestingly, C.S. Lewis said that the liturgy, which is the words that we pray in church, he said the liturgy is like a comfortable pair of slippers and you sort of slip your feet into them. And I think that must have been what happened with your grandmother. With those Sikh prayers, they were just part of who she was. So it was just, it gave her that comfort. So yeah, absolutely recognise that. Very, very moving to think about that and also the comfort that that can be there at the end of the line. Yeah. And of course, of course, you know, religion and faith isn't for everybody. But, you know, for my nan, it was always there.

And of course, if you have been affected by anything you've just heard now, there are support links on the BBC's Action Line website. You are listening to Woman's Hour on Christmas Day, all about comfort with me, Nuala McGovern. And me, Anita Rani. And we're joined by guests, the psychologist Fiona Murden, Reverend Bryony Taylor and palliative care nurse Molly Case. Still to come on the programme, we have music from The Unthanks. We'll be discussing comfort food with food writer Grace Dent and chef Dipta Anand and Becky Coombs on all things hygge. This programme is not live, but you can join in the conversation. You can email us through the website and you can also message us on Instagram.

It's at BBC Women's Hour where you can see a video of us in the studio. Now, I know you know your music, Anita. You get comfort from music? Immense. My whole life. That's it. It's been there through thick and thin. Music has never let me down. There's something for every emotion, every occasion. It's just, yeah, my first,

my true love. And I know you're a fan of what we're going to hear next as well. So we are joined in the Women's Hour studio by the band The Unthanks, known for their eclectic approach in combining traditional English folk, particularly Northumbrian folk music

with other musical genres. They've won the Mojo magazine Folk Album of the Year twice. They have a Mercury Music Prize nomination. So we have Rachel and Becky Unthank. They're joined in the studio by band leader, composer, pianist and producer Adrian McNally

and guitarist Chris Price. They have just finished a UK tour. They have a new album out, The Unthanks in Winter. Perfectly placed. It was recorded one wintry week on the North York moors and it's a time capsule of the season. So how much better could it be to have them for our Christmas Day programme? Now, when it comes to comfort, one of the most important things

we associate with it is food. We keep coming back to food. But I mean, Nuala, you and I, both very greedy, so this is very good for us. Lots of people preparing food in the kitchen. What brings you comfort? What makes you think of comfort

when it comes to food? I mean, I am a carb lady. A low carb diet is never going to work for me no you know so immediately I think like risottos I think lasagna I think actually my favorite food is like a protein wrapped in a carb empanadas burritos dumplings that's where I'm at. Yeah, carb on carb on carb. Bring it, bring it all. Well, the chef and author and entrepreneur Dipna Anand is from a family of restauranteurs. Her grandfather ran a restaurant in the 1950s in Nairobi in Kenya. And one of the dishes, barluck chicken, was a big one, big hitter out there.

The Brilliant in Southall was started by her dad in 1975 she has a dip now and restaurants and bar in milton keynes and also does pop-ups venues including chelsea football club and is a personal chef for team india dipna welcome to woman's hour i have to say i'm so thank you i'm slightly starstruck the brilliant is brilliant it's an institution i'm sitting next to grace dent who's nodding away as well. You're amazing. We are delighted that we've got you on the programme. So tell us about your relationship with food growing up. Oh, I was very lucky to be born and brought up in and around a family of chefs and restaurateurs. Lots of people I meet say, Dipna, you have to have cooking in your blood.

I mean, you just had to. My grandfather started the first brilliant restaurant brilliant restaurant nightclub and hotel in Kenya Nairobi in the 1950s my dad then bought the brilliant name here because it was my grandfather's name he thought of it and the recipes being passed down from my grandfather to my dad and now to me so I think I was very lucky because I got the best of both worlds I learned my restaurant style cooking from my dad and now to me so I think I was very lucky because I got the best of both worlds I learned my restaurant style cooking from my dad yeah and my home style from my mum who's a super cook okay so we need to differentiate right so you've got the restaurant style cooking and then you say that your mum is the greatest cook so we obviously want to talk about some of these recipes I think we should tell my dad I said that. Sorry, dad.

Will he mind? It's okay. It's interesting, isn't it, how it's normally men who've set up all these, especially with Indian restaurants in Britain, and it's men. But actually, it's our mothers who are the greatest cooks at home. Well, this is it. I mean, when dad started the restaurant, it's crazy, but there was only female chefs at that time really in the kitchen yeah and now there's

mostly males yeah so at that time so it things that things have changed of course um like I said my mum is a super cook at home so I learned most of the homely dishes from mum let's talk about the homely dishes then talk to us about some of the ones that bring you the most comfort oh my mum makes a really nice dish called kichari which is a mix of lentils and rice infused with mustard seeds and some curry leaves and then you kind of pour the ghee on top a little bit of turmeric gives it the color but it's a really nice like winter warming dish we're all drooling and that actually became kedgeree so kichari which is like the soothing that's right the go-to when you're sick which is what then became kedgeree. So kedgeree, which is like the soothing, the go-to when you're sick, which is what then became kedgeree.

Well, that's right. And even like if we're sick at home, the first thing we say is, Mom, can you make kedgeree, please? Because it's supposed to, you know, soothe everything. aroma of the food being cooked in your home dipna tell me if you can relate to this as a teenager it would it was the worst thing because like like exiting the house on a friday night to get to the pubs without you know being engulfed in your mom's cooking but now nothing soothes me more than that smell recreating that smell in my home how do you feel about that dipna oh i think i'm just immune now to this tadka smell. So not many people like to sit next to me when I'm on the underground for sure. But it's just something I carry, obviously, as a curry chef, I carry it everywhere with me. And if my mum's doing a tadka at home with all her masalas, then it's just something I'm so used to. So what will be cooked at home for Christmas? So we do a traditional non-Indian Christmas dinner.

Finally, yeah. A lot of people I meet say, Dipna, your turkey must be masalified, you know, loads of spices. And I was like, no, it's not. I love the traditional, you know, English roast. I think that's, you know, one of the highlights. But what's comfort food for you though Dipna then what's oh I love it my my best thing is like a sundae roast saying that though my mum's

stuffed parathas are a highlight of my childhood she still makes the best masala lamb chops with plain parathas um but yeah I do I obviously likeian food but i prefer to have non-indian when i can because i'm around the stuff all the time but you were asking about christmas we do do at the restaurant on the specials menu a masala turkey and that's pretty good that's what i'm talking about okay dipna come on woman like punjabi to punjabi here you might do a sun a roast on christmas day tell me there's a bottle of chilli sauce on the table somewhere. There is. Of course there is. Of course there is.

Does it ever come off the table is my question. This is it. And you know, I always say to Dad, I was like, why do you need that? We need it. We need it all over the mashed potato and all over. That's just Dad's for you, I guess.

Yeah, I hear you. Well, having a chuckle at that is the writer, broadcaster and food critic, Grace Dent. She's also the author of the book Comfort Eating, What We Eat When Nobody's Looking. It's inspired by her podcast

of the same name where I love watching this. She talks with a variety of celebrities to discover their secret snacks and joins us in the studio now. I mean, comfort food. Hello. I am having the loveliest time.

You should just call this Grace's Hour. I feel as if you've just got this thing together. We've got people all around. A beautiful talk on palliative care, which is what I've been through. We've talked about faith. Somebody has laid a chocolate log here in front of me look at it and it looks this is the chocolate log

that I made at school this is the one that this is it's unbelievable surrounded by tiny mince pies oh my gosh oh my gosh it's just it just feels like do you know what I was going to say though when it comes to comfort I do want to comfort that

woman we were talking about uh who's currently got this is she's fictitious but she's also every woman she's got 11 pans on the go at the moment and 11 people on the way she's got 11 people on the way they don't get on with each other and I and we're good let's just call her Julie and I'm going to say Julie this is Grace Dent here. Hello. I understand you. I've written a lot about food. I've been to lots of restaurants. I'm that woman that walks onto MasterChef. I look a bit like Darth Vader.

I'm very nice. I'm nice, really. And what I'm going to say is this is just a big roast dinner, right? Calm down. You've clearly done all of the emotional labor so far. You've probably been planning this and you're tired. Just make the roast dinner and serve. If they don't like it, it's up to them. Those adults that are arguing in the living

room, they're adults. They're grown up. You can't control these people. So that's what I was going to say. I've been thinking about this fictitious lady. Julie needs to get out of the kitchen at some point. She needs to put a bit of wham on. Have a drink. Wham is a good idea. She needs to go outside of the kitchen at some point. She needs to put a bit of wham on. Have a drink. Wham is a good idea.

She needs to go outside on the outside, get some fresh air and have a little rum by herself. I was about to say rum. I was trying to think what might the tip will be for Jules. Rum's good. Yeah. Yeah. Look, this is the most wonderful time of the year, but it is also a time when you need comfort. Absolutely.

I mean, I think most women have been on the go since the end of November with a huge list of things to do. So, you know, give yourself some comfort. Treat yourself like you would treat a best friend. I always say this with comfort. Treat yourself like you would treat a best friend who was going through a breakup. What would you do?

You would put fresh sheets on your bed and you would have some carbohydrate. You wouldn't say, come over and I'll make you a delicious superfood nutty salad, would you? So that and that is comfort. So there you go. I love the people that you meet, what they reveal to you about what their comfort food is. I was trying to think for me, like I talked about all the Carby stuff, which I love. But if I was just at home by myself, and I was peckish, I think mine would be almost a box of saltines, like things that are really dry and salty is my bag.

Look, the whole point of the podcast comfort eating is getting to the absolute truth of what people eat. I'm not interested in celebrities talking about restaurants. What I like, we just went through this experience now. As we were about to go on air, somebody asked, what did we all have for breakfast? Yes. And you, Molly, you said half a jacket potato. Now, that to me is instantly fascinating.

When you're setting up a studio and a celebrity walks in and they say, here's all the things I don't want to talk about my relationship, my childhood, whatever. And then you say, OK, just setting up the mic. What did you have? And they say, I had four onion barges that I put in the microwave. That's the story. Absolutely. And the whole point, you know, is we've done Christmas editions of Comfort Eating. And suddenly, you know, you've got Craig David there. And he's got a slightly melted ice cream out of the freezer that he's put in the microwave. And it reminds him of being a child. It takes him back to be.

I just, you know, we've had Alfie, Alfie Bow. And who does Bow always come with? They come in a pair, don't they? Michael Bolt. Michael Bolt. You never see them apart. And they brought kind of massive cheese boards. It's that time of the year.

I think right now, though, more than any time of the year, I've written about this a lot in the past, the ghosts that are present in this food is just, you've got to be very careful around it, I think. You know, I was talking about this kind of bouche de Noël, as we would call it in France, this, you know, the chocolate log. Just looking at that, you know, the reason it's getting me is because alive in that is, it's 1986,

I'm making it for Christmas in Home Economics and my mum and dad are still alive and they're in the living room and my mother's arguing with me going, where are we going to get butter and cocoa powder from the night before? And I'm making it and I'm doing it with the fork and I'm 12 and I'm bringing it home and that's what I'm getting from just looking at that.

And that, it's the ghosts that are there. I've written a lot about that recently with, if you take these things away, if you, you know, I'm with a French guy now and, you know, he just said, well, thank you. And he stares at Paxo stuffing

and just is like, qu'est-ce que c'est? And I go, it's actually delicious because it's, but if we take it away, if we go, you know, have your expensive apricot bejeweled, well then what if the ghosts of my parents are passing like what if what if they don't get their dairy milk what if they don't

you know so what do you do grace do you do kind of a coexistence of i don't know yeah some i don't know new christmas creations with your partner and keeping some of what was so important of childhood memories when it comes to taste? Absolutely. What I do is more now I kind of go, look, you can have your fancy things. You can import these things. You can have your caviar.

You can have your oysters. You can have all these. But on the down low, I am bringing in a lot of supermarket chocolate and just dispensing it around the house. I brought some today. Look at that bag of chocolate points. Right, and just there you go. See, the child in me is coming out

as you shake that little net off. I'm thinking of the fight that there would be between me and my four siblings trying to get it off the Christmas tree. Never mind your four siblings, you've got a fight on your hands between the women around this table for one of those chocolate coins. Exactly and I think that you can become more sophisticated and pardon me and try to take all these ghosts out and go well who are we really buying this chocolate orange for and these chocolates this tin of whatever these aren't

as good now blah blah blah blah but then you take them away and you're like what what what what if these people are you know a communist spirits and suddenly it's all different and also who am i who am i if i take that away definitely i saw you were listening intently and nodding along with some of what grace was saying yeah and salivating at the same time at the chocolate because I love chocolate. Anything sweet, that chocolate log and the chocolate orange. Oh, my goodness. I do an amazing mandarin cheesecake, by the way, at this time of year. Yes, please.

It's like a spiced mandarin cheesecake with warming cardamom and a little bit of cassia through it. Really yummy. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's

Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. What I love is, Grace, your podcast and the way you talk about food and the way we are talking about it right now, and as it is Woman's Hour, and you brought in the joke about the kind of the nut salad or whatever but as women we punish ourselves you know it's like and it's like you not that we need it I definitely don't but the permission to say

just eat what brings you joy because it is nostalgia and it's sustenance and it's connected to our ancestry and we really punish ourselves by going no but i have to eat something that's healthy because but why i mean of course we need a balanced diet but for a thousand societal reasons yes but i mean i think maybe that's why we all enjoy sometimes as women i think we enjoy the run-up to the big day much more than the big day itself when we're actually on duty i always say that the most pleasurable mince pie is the 10th of December when you've bought a box for everyone else and you're going to keep them but then it's three o'clock in the afternoon and you think,

why not? Why can't I just have this mince pie? I had one in early December just after Woman's Hour and I do remember that mince pie. It was delicious. You're right. The first is always the best. Grace is also staying with us for the rest of the hour. Now, hygge. Hygge took the world by storm when Mike Viking published The Little Book of Hygge, the Danish way to live well in 2016.

Hygge has been described as a quality of coziness and comfortable conviviality that engenders a feeling of contentment or well-being. Well, to find out more, I'm joined by Becky Coombs, whose father is Danish, and she grew up with a love of all things hygge. She runs an online business, Hygge Style. She was nominated as Mumpreneur 100 and has won BT's Best Home Business of the Year award, and has also been a keynote speaker on the topic of hygge at various events. You're the perfect person to talk to us this morning. Happy Christmas. Lovely to see you, Beckycky so what is hugo what does it mean to you well i think in the uk we've got this kind of idea that it's it's socks and blankets and bubble baths

but actually it's it's much deeper than that it's all about connections with your family and there's a lot of food food's always involved so basically it's just making a nice environment for your loved ones and eating and drinking a lot and really focusing on people it's just making a nice environment for your loved ones and eating and drinking a lot and really focusing on people it's all about connections so a lot of what we've been talking about today so tell me about your childhood memories with your Danish father what are your hygge memories from your childhood oh well we used to spend all our Christmases and summers in Denmark and my Danish grandmother taught me how to make all folded paper stars and little Danish baskets and make lots of Christmassy treats and what have you so I've just grown up living that

kind of lifestyle and when I had my son obviously my head was full of all these traditions that I loved from when I was little and I wanted to you know pass them on to him. How do you bring hygge into your life here? I think we do it anyway I think you know roast dinners to him how do you bring hygge into your life here i think we do it anyway i think you know roast dinners and a walk and all those kind of things i think we've always done it it's a sort of way of surviving long cold winters but i think the um the scandinavian aspect of hygge has given everybody a label to hang it on to and and that's that's worked very well because everybody wants an excuse to you know snuggle up on the sofa with a board game and and a nice cup of cocoa on a wet sunday afternoon i mean i'm a huge fan of going out for a walk if that's my best example of who goes to go out from disgusting wet walk on a horrible cold

day uh with a fast hot chocolate because then he gets to come home again that's my that's exactly so that's the best bit so is this is this huger because this in my mind this is what it is this is this hygge? Because this in my mind, this is what it is. It is. And I spend a lot of time outdoors going for that wet, wintry, cold, freezing walk because you get to sit in front of a fire in a pub with maybe a stout or a red wine. With a mate that you love and you're chatting. I mean, some of the most hygge moments I've ever had have not been your traditional ones. I mean, I had a flask of tea in Iceland once and we were stuck in a blizzard and I accidentally jammed the sunroof open. So the snow was like roughly coming in, but I've got a really big puffy coat on and a flask of tea and my boyfriend.

And it was just, that was it. That was hygge. Yeah, having a lovely time. Wonderful. I just want to let people know as well, we have a wonderful special Woman's Hour programme coming up on New Year's Day about getting out and walking and the benefits that it brings. So I do hope people will tune in for that as well. Take a flask of hot chocolate. That's right. And maybe even a splash of rum in it. Why not? Becky,

thanks so much for staying with us as we talk about comfort and joy on Women's Hour. Now, earlier in the programme, we were speaking to the organisational psychologist Fiona Murden, who explained what comfort is, why we crave it, how important it is to us. And we've been talking about what brings us comfort, right? We've gone through a myriad of aspects. Then what about the flip side?

The idea of pushing oneself out of your comfort zone. Here's a listener, Dawn. She says, I have gone out of my comfort zone as I have been writing a book. You've been there, Anita. I am an outdoor learning provider and looking at the future when I may not be able to be as active as my job requires. I decided to future-proof my business, teaching teachers how to integrate outdoor learning into their teaching. I bit the bullet and enrolled on a six-week business writing course to write my first draft. I now have two chapters left before the end of the year.

It has been a terrifying but liberating experience. Did you find it at all? Terrifying, absolutely. The day before, I I thought I am sick to my stomach. How do I pulp every copy of this book before it comes out? And then I asked somebody who and I said, you know, I'm sick to my stomach. And they said, well, what if you hadn't written this book where you've revealed so much? What if you'd just written something very basic, a very nice story? How would you feel? And I said, I think, what a waste of time.

So sometimes you have to lean into the terror, don't you? But don't ask me. We've got a professional here who might have some actual answers. Why do we push ourselves out of our comfort zones, Fiona? Or should we? We should. I work a lot with leaders. So when I'm working with leaders,

that's the sort of state they often choose to be in they want to to do that but everyday people don't necessarily want to because there's this feeling of let's hang on to what we know and I think women in particular are not as good at pushing ourselves out and the reason why yeah the reason why a we should is because a fundamental part of being human is a need to grow and a need to not become stagnant and by staying within our comfort zone we're not experiencing new things we're not learning new things and we're not actually fulfilling our potential and that doesn't mean we have to become a leader of an organization it doesn't mean we have to do something incredible it doesn't mean we have to become a leader of an organisation. It doesn't mean we have to do something incredible. It doesn't mean we have to write a book. But it does mean that what do we want to achieve and are we pushing ourselves in any way to get there?

Nuala, what have you done this year that's pushed you out of your comfort zone? about this before we came in. And I am a commitment phobe. I do not like committing to meetings, right? My nickname is lastminute.com. Me too. Me three. That's so weird. I know. And this year, I have actually committed to some things

weeks or even months in advance. And it makes me quite uncomfortable when I see a full schedule of when there won't be wiggle room or that I'm kind of hemmed in, in a way. It's funny on the flip side, I have said no to a lot more things this year at the same time as making these commitments.

So, but that, this is huge for me to actually be able to make a commitment. It took my husband seven years to get me down the aisle. I'll give you an idea that I'm never one that's in a hurry to go to that next level of commitment. But Grace, I'm going to throw it back over to you. Oh, no, no, no. Keep talking. Not a chance. You are a great woman for throwing

yourself out of your comfort zone. Tell us about it and why because when I was reading about this I'm just fascinated by you because you're doing things I think that might be kind of my ultimate. It's the word stupid that you're looking for. You're looking for the word stupid things. No, no, no. I'm in awe of you and I tip my hat

my Christmas hat to you. I just want to let people know you've done I'm a Celebrity. I'm a Celebrity is a big one. That is really stepping out. Well, I turned 50. My parents had both just died. I went through a point of looking after them for a long time. It's very long drawn out how we care as women often. And I think I was offered it and I thought, when will I ever of my own volition, you know, crawl off the side of a skyscraper and go over, you know, go down a flagpole? When will I ever lock myself in a box and let them fill it up to with bugs and cockroaches?

I know when. I will never, ever do that. I mean, I've got to say, do not recommend TripAdvisor one star. Like, do not go. But I would never. And I thought, thought look let's just go and do it you know it's funny that we're speaking to Dipnam because she's linked to another part of my life I have to go and eat by myself all the time and when I started being a restaurant critic I would go I'd bend over backwards to bring people with me to fit around their schedules and and now I just sit there and I think,

I have to go to this restaurant. And I went to Diffner's restaurant by myself. This is why we were both kind of laughing to meet each other here, because I remember getting up and thinking, I have to travel to another city. I have to walk in. And I think, you know,

this is so out of women's comfort zones. Often they can't do it. I like to push myself because I know that now I'm past 50 and I can see, and I'm not being morbid, I can see the home straight, right? And I've got to do this now.

I've got to, you know. It's now or never. Because you are in your prime. And I've got to say, when you, exactly, and I've got to say when you do these things, the thrill, the high

is better than anything that you could get in a bottle. It's incredible. Do you know what? You're making me feel like I want to go back because I used to always push myself massively out of my comfort zone. In what way, Fiona? I sang in a band at university because I was scared of standing up in front of people. I travel around the world on my own because it scared me. I've written two books. The first one was terrifying. The second one was just stupid.

But there have been a lot of things. I've started my own business. I've moved to a different country. But I don't feel I do it as much anymore. And so I can sit here and say what I would advise leaders, what I would advise other people. But that was more when I was a bit younger. But now's when you need it.

Just do it now. You're inspiring me. That's the point. When everybody's looking at you thinking that you should just be in the house in a nice cardi. Yeah. Julie, take off the cardi. Take off the cardi. Wear the dress.

Put on the sparkles. Wear the dress. Put on the sparkles. Wear the dress. Put the sparkly dress on. All those things you're saving for best. Just get them out of the cupboard. Absolutely. Put them on there and just whatever it is, get out of your own way. I want to thank all of our guests this morning.

How wonderful. Fiona Murden, the Reverend Bryony Taylor, Molly Case, Dipna Anand, Grace Dent and Becky Coombs. And I want to thank you for listening, including Julie, of course. We hope this past hour has brought some comfort to you and some joy. And we wish you all a very Merry Christmas. Yes, we do. Join me tomorrow when we have another festive treat for you. We'll be celebrating puzzles and games. Merry Christmas.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.