Woman's Hour - Commonwealth Games, Body image and mental health report, Lizzo and Beyonce lyrics, Personality disorders

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

The Commonwealth Games in Birmingham are underway and for the first time in a major multi-sport event, more medals will be awarded to women than men, with the medal programme confirming a total of 136 events for women compared to 134 for men. Jessica speaks to BBC Sports presenter Clare Balding as well as the first ever female Chef de Mission for Team Scotland, who for the first time have more women competing in their team than men.Six weeks after pop star Lizzo changed the lyrics of her song because it contained an ableist slur, Beyonce has been criticised for using the same term. In her new song ‘Heated’, which is co-written by hiphop star Drake, the slur is used twice. In a statement, Beyonce said the term wasn't used intentionally in a harmful way, and will be replaced. Hannah Diviney is a writer and Disability Activist from Sydney, who went viral for calling out both Lizzo and Beyonce.The impact of body image on mental and physical health is "wide-reaching" according to a new wide-ranging report out today by the Health and Social Care Committee which calls for e.g. for the Government to introduce a law so "commercial images" which feature bodies which have been doctored in any way - including changing body proportions or skin tone - are legally required to carry a logo to let viewers know they have been digitally altered. And the Government to speed up the introduction of a promised licensing regime for non-surgical cosmetic procedures to prevent vulnerable people being exploited. Jessica hears from Jeremy Hunt is Chair of the Committee, and Dawn Steele, a patient trustee to the board of the Joint Council For Cosmetic Practitioners.Penelope Campling is a psychiatrist and psychotherapist. Over the course of her 40-year career, she has seen many changes in the way we treat serious mental illness. She spent twenty years running the NHS personality disorder unit in Leicester. She has now retired from the NHS, still practising as a psychotherapist, and has just published her second book, Don’t Turn Away: Stories of Troubled Minds in Fractured Times.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Great to be with you today. Now, we're already into day five of the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and there are 37 gold medals up for grabs today. We'll have much more on that in a moment because it comes on the day where some people have been questioning whether the celebrations for the lionesses were on par with those thrown for previous men's sporting

successes but one thing that's undisputed of course is the incredible team spirit that's been on display between the England players I don't know if you've seen any of their post-match interviews but the players spoke about wanting to run through brick walls to help their teammates. You might have seen the match winner, Chloe Kelly, so eager to join in the post-match sing-along with her teammates that she ran off mid-interview with the mic in her hand to go and join her fellow lionesses. And if you saw the celebrations in Trafalgar Square yesterday, you would have seen the overwhelming sense of togetherness in the squad. So it got me thinking,

and I want to ask you if you've experienced something similar with your women's sporting team or in any women's team for that matter. Has it impacted your life? What did you learn about yourself? What did you enjoy most? Get in touch with us.

You can text WOMEN'S HOUR on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. And on social media, it's at BBC WOMEN'S HOUR or you can email us through our website as always as well. I think I might ask this question to Claire Bording, sports broadcaster who's going to be joining us in a few minutes as well. Now also on the programme, pop star Beyonce says she will change the lyrics of her new song Heated after it contained

aimless language. We'll be speaking to the disability activists who called her out and looking at why this offensive language is still being used. Plus a new report has highlighted the big impact body image has on our physical and mental health. The Health and Social Care Committee are calling for the government to introduce a law where commercial images carry a logo when they've been digitally altered. They also want the government to speed up their promise of a licensing regime for non-surgical cosmetic procedures such as Botox, chemical pills and dermal fillers. We'll be hearing from a woman whose botched cosmetic surgery still affects her 10 years later. And it was first, we'll also be speaking to the chair of the committee, Jeremy Hunt, as well. We'll also be talking about mental health this morning and how our

relationship with this topic has changed over the years. Psychotherapist Penelope Campling, who's just released her second book, will be here to chat to us about her experiences during her 40-year career. But first this morning, as I mentioned, who's just released her second book, will be here to chat to us about her experiences during her 40 year career. But first this morning, as I mentioned, let's talk about the Commonwealth Games. And after that monumental success of the England women's football team, this summer's games will also provide sportswomen with an historic moment. For the first time in a major multi-sport competition, There are more medals for women than men. Incredible, isn't it? Of course, as I said, we're already into the fifth day of

competition. Many sportswomen have already picked up medals, so who better to give us an overview of that than Claire Bording, who is hosting the BBC's Commonwealth Games Highlights programme, and joining us this morning is Eleanor Middlemiss, who is the first ever

female chef de mission for Team Scotland. Good morning to you both. Morning Jess. Good morning. Now just before we get to the games there are some as I mentioned including the former sports minister Tracey Crouch and the former head of the football association Greg Dyke who were saying that there's been a discrepancy, Claire, between the accolades given to the Lionesses after their historic win and those offered to the men's teams who have had similar sporting successes. Do you think there's been a comparison? I don't. To be honest, I'm not sure that focusing on that

is necessarily a good thing right now, mainly because, OK, there wasn't a Downing Street reception. Those have only ever been for the benefit of the person in Downing Street. And there's technically there isn't one at the moment, as it were, as Prime Minister.

I'm not sure the players would have wanted that. I thought the reception in Trafalgar Square was absolutely wonderful. But more important to me was the number of people who went to Wembley,

record crowd for a European Championship final, the number of people who watched on television and were watching on iPlayer. So a combined total of 23 million. It's the biggest television event of the year so far. It's the most engagement, and actually it was a record figure in Germany as well, and they had a really great homecoming for their runners-up. I think this has been the first time that women's football, and we've had high standard players before and as the players say that they have you know their success has been built on the shoulders

of others and I love the way that they've continued to pay tribute to those who went before as well as to their own teamwork as you were talking about but this tournament this team has connected with fans in a way that is so different so therefore I don't think the traditional ways of measuring, is it this, is it that, is it the same? I don't think that applies because this is so different. And frankly, in many ways, it's so much better. They've used social media in a really effective way to tell their stories, show their characters all the way through.

They've stayed on the pitch for up to an hour after matches. The men's team never do that. There's so much about this team, I think, that they are driving and they want to be themselves. And I actually genuinely think that women's football has a huge chance and opportunity to show what football should be like. So comparing it with the men's game is not a helpful thing because the men's game might have tons of money in it,

but we're not holding up something like this is the best sporting event and the best, you know, the best behaved audiences and the best experience you'll ever have. Because frankly, the men's game is not. Yeah. But I think the women's game has a chance of being. I think they've been phenomenal. I'm so thrilled for them. And I have so much admiration for the way they've conducted themselves.

But it's that connection with all age groups that I think makes them entirely unique and special. Yeah, an inspiration to the country. So history made in terms of women's football, but history made as well, Claire, at these Commonwealth Games, because as I said, for the first time, there'll be more medal events for women than men. 136 for women, 134 for men.

How has this come about? Well, partly because women's T20 cricket is in the games for the first time and the men were invited and they wanted it to be a men's and women's t20 competition but because of internationals this summer and various other commitments and i think the men's calendar is overloaded and plenty of male players will tell you that they couldn't make it work whereas whereas the women absolutely wanted to make it work. And obviously with cricket, all of the leading nations are Commonwealth nations. It's very much a Commonwealth sport. So that will be phenomenal.

So obviously there are only medals there for women. And I guess the other one where it's women and men don't play it is netball. And England in that, as that as you know the reigning Commonwealth champions having beaten Australia four years ago I think the aim is always to keep things equal to be honest you know that that would always be my aim in in life generally but this has happened this year and it's interesting and I think it just gives there's so many opportunities for girls and for women so many different sports they play. I watched a bit of the weightlifting yesterday and actually Emily Campbell was a flag bearer

at the opening ceremony for England, jointly with Jack Law, and she won a silver medal at the Olympics and her competition is coming up. And she talked really powerfully, I thought, after the Olympics about body shape and how there is this defined shape of femininity. And she wanted to challenge that and say, look, we can be strong and powerful.

And that is not, we don't have to be tiny and thin. You know, we can be strong, we can be powerful. And that is still a positive body image. So I think there's loads going on. It's just great. The gymnastics is still on today and that's been phenomenally successful and again you get to see you know men and women just doing things that i think are impossible the gymnastics is certainly remarkable to watch some of the things that they're they're able to do and the strength that you see uh in their bodies i want to bring eleanor into this

as well because history has been made for Team Scotland, hasn't it, Eleanor? For the first time, there's more women competing than men. How has that happened? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. I mean, obviously, we're really supportive of the Commonwealth Games Federation in Birmingham for really showcasing female sport.

You know, you can't underestimate the inspirational factor of the next generation seeing a great female athletes competing at the games and from a Team Scotland point of view there's a few firsts for us as well so it's the first time we've qualified in the women's rugby sevens it's the first time we've qualified in the women's basketball three by three and also fantastically the first time in the women's three by three wheelchair basketball. So with that and also qualifying in the netball, that just gave us the opportunity to strengthen our female representation. And we do have more females on the team than we have males.

That's an incredible list of achievements before any medals have even been won. How much do you think that's down to the legacy and the impact of hosting the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow back in 2014? I just want to go back because I don't want to miss out on our lovely Louise, our rhythmic gymnast, who's called the first time we've had a female rhythmic gymnast in 20 years as well.

So lots of great, great news from the female side from Scotland. But regarding the legacy from glasgow i mean obviously the people really made glasgow and i really feel the city of birmingham's doing the same thing the games is really being made by the people our athletes are extremely are loving the city they're loving their games experience and they're walking about with them big smiles on their faces so that's really really good. The legacy from Glasgow, we're sitting there with obviously the venue and the infrastructure's there and that's allowing Glasgow to embrace large sporting events. And they've done numerous shoe sporting events since Glasgow. But on a more sort of athlete side, you know,

the inspiration from people being in the crowd and being inspired from the performances and in Glasgow you know we've just then Shannon Archer's just won our first ever artistic medal in the vault and she was in the crowd watching the gymnastics team win medals in Glasgow and that really inspired her to push on I mean we've got a lovely story in our badminton team where Kirst Kirsty Gilmore picked up a silver and now our coach, Robert Blair, picked up bronze. And three of the girls that are currently in the badminton team were all in the crowd.

And they quote, Eleanor O'Donnell quotes Kirsty's inspiration in Glasgow with her sort of pushing her on. And Keira Torrance talks about Robert's bronze medal then moving into the coaching as her inspiration. And then the other one is Julie McPherson, who was on our Achieve programme in 2014, which is our development programme for aspiring athletes. So we're sitting here with a badminton team of four girls

and they all have a huge legacy story from Glasgow. You just wonder about the knock-on effects that that success is going to have for future generations. Absolutely incredible. Claire, there's been so many highlights for the women competing for the home nations. You've mentioned a few. Tell us about Alice Tai, who won gold in the women'sic swimmer and she won seven gold medals in the 2019 World Championships. But since she was 13, she's had issues with her legs and the lower part of her right leg was giving her an awful lot of pain and wasn't functional. So she had asked surgeons whether she could have it amputated. As young as 13, she'd wanted this to happen. And they said, look, wait until you're're fully grown because otherwise it will cause more issues so she had the amputation just uh below the knee in January now I worked with Alice on the Paralympics last year she'd had elbow surgery at that time and hadn't been able to compete at the Paralympic Games so I talked to her a lot she's I think she

she was looking forward to what she could then achieve because it would mean she could have a prosthetic leg and that would give her so much more movement out of the pool. But she was concerned about how it would affect her balance and how it would change her backstroke in the pool. Well, my word. I mean, she stormed through, took a gold medal, was so thrilled afterwards. That's been a real triumph.

The other one in the pool, in the para-sport events, because that's what makes the Commonwealth Games so special. We have integrated events and more power events here than there ever have been before. Maisie Summers-Newton, who as a 10-year-old went and watched Ellie Simmons win gold medals in London, has followed Ellie Simmons' example. And she won a gold yesterday in breaststroke and in the SP6. And she is is a teacher primary school teacher as well and she said it's more nerve-wracking facing a class of 30 than it is on being on the start blocks but she absolutely stormed it for me though the you know going back to that thing i was talking about connection and how you speak to fans and supporters and what actually matters to people and gets in

their heart makes them want to follow what you do. For me, Laura Kenney, winning the gold medal for England in the scratch race, having really questioned, and she gave such a brilliant interview, I'd recommend anyone to look it up on the BBC Sport website. She said so much about how she had to come back after feeling like she was done and she was ready to retire and she didn't think she had it in her,

but she had inspiration, didn't she, from her coach? But even more than that, Jess, she'd had a miscarriage after the Olympics and then an ectopic pregnancy. She talked about this very openly, which I thought was really brave. And various other people, I mean, her own mother then said to her, talked about her miscarriage. And I know from one of the team here, his mother talked to him about a miscarriage she'd had, which he never knew.

So she's opened up a conversation, I think, that's really positive and will help a lot of people, but also her example of being able to push through it. And Jason, her husband, Jason Kenny, most successful Olympian Britain's ever produced, now coach, said, you know, get back on your bike to see if it helps. And she was having a very bad week she said she said she was the worst link of the team and all of this and she was on the start line for the scratch race and some guy in

the crowd shouted out come on Laura you've got this and she's like all right then and off she went and it's just the way she talks about it is so engaging. And I think this is the power of sport generally, but I think women are particularly good at it. And going back to the Lionesses, I think that... They would have inspired some of these female athletes, wouldn't they? They would have watched what the Lionesses did against all the odds and thought, you know, maybe I could do that. Maybe I could emulate that success.

Everyone is talking about it and I think particularly for the teams it's it's really strong to watch that bond and you I know you're asking that question about people who've played in teams I think back to the hockey team that won gold in Rio or the netball team that that one of the Commonwealth Games cricket team that won the World Cup all of those you want to be in their gang. And that's such a, you know, it's such a powerful pull that, and when you work with people who are genuinely collaborative and supportive and who you want to be their friend, right? And you want to work like they work. I think that for all of us in all the different businesses that people work in or school teachers

or within families, you look and you aspire to a behaviour pattern and you go, I want to be like that. And that to me is where teamwork across women is not just about being in one room together. It's about what we can all do for each other and with each other right across the board. Have you found that as well, Eleanor, when you're working in sport, that sense of togetherness, how has that impacted you? Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely huge when you're bringing a team down to the Commonwealth Games, you know,

Team Scotland, we work quite hard on the ethos and the teamwork within the team. But do you know what? It's quite natural now, you know, the athletes come in, they know the stories of the athletes before, they've set the ethos and the teamwork and the athletes just come in and learn from their predecessors

and then they make their own history and their own stories and then that generates the next lot coming through as well. So it's perpetuating and it's fantastic to watch. Honestly, the atmosphere within the team, the village environment, the home from home, fantastically put on by Birmingham and the atmosphere within the team the village environments a home from home fantastically put on by by birmingham and the athletes within their groups and within their teams it's just a a great place to be it's a relaxing place to be because obviously the pressure of competition but when they come back to the village that that unity is is just fantastic to see yeah i've definitely experienced that as well having played football all of my life. Eleanor and Claire,

thank you so much for joining us. Eleanor, of course, the first ever female chef at the Mission for Team Scotland. Good luck for the rest of the games, and Claire Bording, as I mentioned, hosts BBC's Evening Highlights programme. Now, some of you have got in touch about

this idea of being in a women's sports team that camaraderie that collective togetherness as someone has tweeted in to say i was part of a women's basketball team in london called the trojans which was the most amazing mix of backgrounds and ages and experience we had a blast and everyone supported each other through all kinds of life events beautiful thing they said as someone else has said i was captain of my university women's rugby club. It was the best three years of my life. Camaraderie, team spirit, winning, losing, training,

working as a core in what was seen as a man's game. It was a thrill. And they say, I really miss it. The benefits of team sport are palpable and golden. Yeah, thanks for getting in touch. Carry on. We're on social media at BBC Woman's Hour. You can also text and email us as well. Now, six weeks after pop star

Lizzo changed the lyrics of her song because it contained an ableist slur, Beyonce has been criticised for using the same term in her new song Heated, which is co-written by hip hop star Drake. The slur is used twice. Now, in a statement, Beyonce said the term wasn't used intentionally in a harmful way and it will be replaced. Hannah Deviney is a writer and disability activist from Sydney who went viral for calling out both Lizzo and Beyonce and joins us now from Sydney. So good morning slash good evening to you, Hannah. Can you hear me OK?

Hi from the future. It's like it's Tuesday evening over here. So OK, good evening to you. Now, some people, Hannah, will be they'll be listening along to this and they'll have no idea whatsoever what offensive word we're talking about. So just explain what did Beyonce's lyrics say and just explain kind of what impact they had on you when you heard them yeah both Beyonce and Lizzo's uh lyrics contained the word spaz which is obviously short for spastic and in kind of colloquial cultural terms,

generally refers to someone who's having like an emotional outburst or about to lose it, or maybe someone with a lack of intelligence. But in disabled spaces, spastic actually refers to like a tightness or kind of constant tension in the muscles so for me i have cerebral palsy and my the full name of my specific cerebral palsy is spastic diplegic cerebral palsy which basically means that i have that constant um unending tension kind of always activated in my legs and most of my body which makes my life um difficult sometimes and kind of always activated in my legs and most of my body, which makes my life difficult sometimes and kind of tends to flare up in colder weather and can be there whether I'm doing something strenuous or not, and it's just constant.

It never goes away. So I don't necessarily like that those colloquial cultural things are associated with something that is a part of my life and it's definitely been a schoolyard insult that was used against me as a kid and against other disabled people that I know and love and I just felt like even though Lizzo and Beyonce didn't intend it in that way having that word be popularized once again um through the examples of obviously two of the biggest names in music just wasn't a great um example to be setting and why do you think these terms are being used is this ignorance or is it is it intentional

um no i don't think it's intentional i I think there seems to be, based on my Twitter mentions, a lot of cultural kind of disconnect, and it's important that I recognize that obviously a number of the people who have spoken to me use African-American vernacular English, and for them the term spaz apparently means something else. And I obviously can't speak to that as a white Anglo-Saxon person. But I think if the term you're using is causing harm to another marginalized group kind of en masse, then it's probably not the right word to be using.

And there probably should be more creative ways for you to kind of get the same intention across. Are you happy with the way that Lizzo and Beyonce reacted? And are you happy with the fact that they changed the lyrics? I wasn't expecting them to react at all. I thought, I hoped they would, but I wasn't really expecting it because obviously both of them operate in the sphere of celebrity and for Beyonce in particular, she curates this very like enigmatic, mysterious, kind of untouchable persona. So I figured getting it to her might be a little more difficult

than getting it to Lizzo. And I'm just really happy that they've both kind of learned and done so in a way that avoided like the ongoing pain that might have been caused had they doubled down or tried to defend the use of the term or tried to turn it back on the disabled community. And instead, they've learned, apologized and basically given us all a masterclass in how to be effective allies. The thing is about the Beyonce song, it was co-written by Drake, as I said, but there was also, was it up to 11 writers involved in writing that song, Heated? Are you surprised that none of them called it out? Does this mean that we need maybe more education about disabled issues? Well, I think more education about disabled issues is always going to be a good thing I'm always going to advocate for that no matter the circumstances because I think disabled people historically and culturally no matter where you are in the world

are some of the most kind of unexplored marginalized groups there is but I think um I'm more surprised that no one picked it up after the Lizzo situation because I know obviously the song would have been mastered and produced months ago. But I was a bit confused as to how, like, given that we just had this conversation like six weeks ago, no one in her team managed to point out that they would probably run into the same issue if they kept the lyric in there. So Lizzo's statement when she, you know, when it came to her attention that she'd use an offensive word, she said, let me make one thing clear. I never want to promote derogatory language. As a fat black woman in America, I've had many hurtful words used against me.

So I overstand the powerful words can have, whether intentionally, or in my case, unintentionally. As an influential artist, I'm dedicated to being part of the change I've been waiting to see in the world. Do you think there should be a call, Hannah, perhaps for when an offensive word is used like this, and when an offensive slur is used in a song, that it shouldn't be released? Well, I don't want to ever stand in the way of someone's artistic expression. I would just want them to think kind of very long and hard about the ways they've possibly communicated that.

So obviously like the intention behind the song heated and the intention behind the song girls, uh, obviously to communicate like emotions that Lizzo or Beyonce felt or like send a message to their, to their audience, which I would never want to police. Um, but I think definitely there should be a pause in terms of making sure that like when you communicate an experience you're not doing so in a way that's going to harm other people and where can listeners listeners go now to to find out more about the issues that we've been talking about because it's not something that's probably spoken about much in the mainstream is it

yeah definitely not i think um if you just start looking on twitter and instagram for disability advocates who are doing amazing work and make sure that when you do that um they are also people with disabilities who sit at the intersection of other marginalized groups so for example like if you start following disabled people if they're all white then you probably need to like reframe that um but yeah i would start with just a kind of quick instagram twitter search and go from. There's plenty of resources and plenty of great people in the UK and abroad who do excellent advocacy work. Hannah, it's been great to talk to you. Thank you for sharing your experiences and coming on to Women's Hour today. Thank you so much for having me. I really, really appreciate it.

Speak to you soon. Now, starting on the 22nd of August, we'll be running our annual Listener Week where all the items are chosen by you. So if there's a strong personal story you want to share, an issue you'd like us to explore, maybe an unusual hobby you've taken up or even an historical woman who you think has been overlooked, let us know via the Woman's Hour website. Of course, you can text us as well. 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. We're on social media as well, as you know, at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website as well. And now, how many of you have had a moment where you've looked in the mirror and been unhappy at what you've seen? Well, a new report has looked at the impact of

body image on mental and physical health. It's wide ranging and says the government is not doing enough to understand the scale of the risks. The report from the Health and Social Care Committee calls for the government to introduce a law where commercial images carry a logo when they've been digitally altered. They also want the government to speed up their promise of a licensing regime for non-surgical cosmetic procedures such as Botox, chemical pills and dermal fillers. Earlier, I spoke to Jeremy Hunt, who is chair of the committee, and he explained what their wide-ranging report found. Parents of young children and particularly parents of young daughters, as I have, are worried about up and down the country. And what we're seeing now, according to figures

that came out last year, is that over 60% of 17 to 19 year olds may have an eating disorder. So this is a huge, huge issue. And it really needs a radical change in our thinking. And we have been in the past in the committee very worried about childhood obesity. And what we're saying is we need to focus as much on children who are underweight as children who are overweight. Both are equally dangerous. And there are lots of things that we can actually do about this. We don't just have to accept it. There are lots of things that we could do that would really make a difference. And that's what we focus on this morning. What are those things? What would you like to see?

Well, three things in particular. The first thing is on social media, we would like to see when commercial companies digitally alter an image using Photoshop, for example, to make a woman's image more thin than she would be in real life, we think that should be labelled. So people looking at that image know this is not a real body. And we think that would make a difference. I mean, hopefully, rather than having lots of labelled images, it would just mean that commercial companies didn't alter images in the first place. But that's a very simple, straightforward thing that we think should happen. Then secondly, we are very concerned about some of the backstreet cowboys who do instant cosmetic procedures, what are called non-surgical cosmetic procedures,

changing the shape of someone's nose or their lips. We think that whole industry should be properly regulated. And the thing that really worries us is that people who can just go in, get an operation done, we think there should be a 48-hour cooling off period. And in particular, people should properly look into your mental health, your physical health, because we heard some very troubling evidence on the committee of people who had a mental health issue, wanted the size or the shape of their nose changed. And then, of course, after the operation, they found it hadn't solved anything at all. And they actually wish they hadn't done the operation in the first place. And so a proper holistic approach before something as big as changing the look of your face is absolutely essential.

You would like to see the introduction of a licensing regime. That's something that the government has already committed to, but you want to see it happen faster. Is that the case? Yes. They've given themselves the power to do this in the new Health and Care Act, which is excellent. And my colleague, Laura Trott, did a lot of work in order to make this happen. And she deserves a lot of credit for that. But we're saying it's not just having the power to do it. We actually want to see it implemented. And we said we'd like it to be implemented by next July. And we've talked about having a two-day cooling off period. We'd also like to see dermal fillers be treated as prescription items. So you have to go to a doctor

and get a doctor to sign off on getting dermal fillers. We just think it's an area which has got out of control. And we heard people giving evidence to our committee who said that they go to backstreet places, absolutely filthy, where really the practitioner just wanted to get their money and was willing to do anything at all to their face. And when you're talking about changing the look on someone's face, we found it really heartbreaking to hear people say that they changed the look of their face and they wish they hadn't. And it wasn't reversible. And that's why we just think this is an industry which we're not saying there shouldn't be an industry at all. But there needs to be some sensible controls to stop these tragedies happening. And so one of the other things that we talk about is the need for research, because this is a new area.

We're going to have to learn to live with social media. We're going to have to learn to swim in the deep end on this one. But let's do the research so that we properly understand what's something that's dangerous and we could do something about and what's something that we're just going to have to become better educated about. So when you mention licensing regime, you want better qualified doctors, you want more research. Is that what you're calling for exactly? Well, we'd like more medical involvement, actually, because the medical profession is very evidence driven. And we'd like doctors to be looking holistically so that if, if someone says, you know, I want to change the shape of my nose or my lips or whatever, um, a doctor

says, okay, well, there are procedures where you could do this, but let me try and understand why. Is there a mental health issue? Is there an anxiety issue? Is there a depression issue? And are you thinking that you're going to be able to solve a mental health problem with a physical change? Now, sometimes that can happen. I mean, sometimes, for example, you know, to give a completely different example,

you could have someone who's clinically obese, who has gastric band surgery, and it transforms their mental as well as their physical health to do that. So we're not saying there is never a connection, but sometimes you get someone who does some really dramatic surgery and they find that actually the issue was a self-esteem issue and the surgery isn't going to do anything to solve that. Further regulation sometimes means a big hike in prices, Jeremy, which can price people out of the market, which can make these procedures inaccessible to certain people, which in turn could impact their body confidence. So how do you safeguard against restricting access in that way? Is there anything that you can do to put measures in place? Well, it's a reasonable question. But I think at the moment, the greater of the two evils we have

is that access is not too hard, it's too easy. And we're getting too many people who are doing non-surgical cosmetic procedures that they regret later. And I think sensible regulation doesn't mean that you are going to have a big hike in prices. It just means you can avoid some of those terrible tragedies of which we heard very many examples as a committee. Now, Jeremy, this isn't the first time that people have called for greater regulation in this area. In 2013, Sir Bruce Keoghh when he was medical director of the NHS

led a review into the regulation of the surgical and non-surgical cosmetic intervention sector and he actually highlighted that these procedures carry no more protection than buying a toothbrush so why has so little changed from 2013 to now when these problems have been known about? Yes, and I was actually Health Secretary when Sir Bruce made that report and I welcomed it. And I think that's why I've always been aware of this issue. The truth is that we needed legislation to change it and we weren't able to have a big Health and Care Act until this year for lots of reasons. But without wanting to make any excuses, Jess, when I was health secretary, we just had a very big health and care act, the Andrew Lansley Act.

There was a very strong feeling in government and indeed across the political spectrum that they didn't want another big health act. Now we've had one and it has become the law and the government has got the power to do this. So we are really keen for the government to implement it quickly. The government has now got 60 days to respond to our report, which we're publishing this morning. So by the time they make that response, we will have a new prime minister in Downing Street. And we really hope that they will respond sympathetically. And I'm confident they will because this is an issue that is of massive concern to parents up and down the country. Prishi Sunak has got two young daughters. Liz Truss has got children as well. So I think

they will listen sympathetically. But it's not just sympathy. We want action as well. That was Jeremy Hunt, the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee who I spoke to earlier. We have had a statement as well from a government spokesperson. They said, we know the devastating impact issues around body image can have on a person's mental and physical health. And we are continuing to take steps to support those affected. As part of our ongoing efforts, we will be introducing a national licensing scheme to help prevent exploitation, improve safety and ensure individuals are making informed and safe choices about non-surgical cosmetic procedures. This will build on the existing support we have put in place from expanding mental health services. Now, also listening to that was Dawn Knight. Now Dawn had cosmetic surgery

that went wrong back in 2012. She's now a patient trustee to the board of the Joint Council for Cosmetic Practitioners and campaigns for better safety and care in the cosmetic and aesthetic sectors across the UK. Good morning to you Dawn. What did you make of that report and what Jeremy Hunt had to say there? Yeah, good morning and thanks so much for giving me the opportunity to join the conversation this morning. I actually contributed written evidence to the report and in my position within the JCCP I've been quite active in the call for licensing, including briefing MPs, cross-party and peers, because obviously we need the support through the House of Lords as well. I absolutely welcome the report this morning. It is calling for an awful lot of things that we've been calling for for a long time.

As Jeremy Hunt mentioned, you know, the fact that we need to make dermal fillers prescription only is something that we desperately need to see a change in. Premises standards, again, were mentioned. And of course, the risk logo and, you know, a disclaimer to say that an image has been digitally altered. But recommendation 26 is the one that I was calling for, which is a risk logo to be visible on all non-surgical and cosmetic adverts wherever we see them. There is very little talk when these procedures are being marketed around risk. It's all about, you know, it's no problem, it's really easy to do, you know, pop in, you can have it done now. And a lot of these procedures are high risk. They do sit at the very top of a risk matrix and the fact that there is little to no reference to the risk associated really gives a misconception to the

general public so yeah this I really really hope the government read and take this on board it follows the all-party parliamentary group report 17 recommendations two years ago, I think that came out. The JCCP did a 10-point plan. The government have now got this. We've got the licensing in law. It needs implementing. Jeremy Hunt is very optimistic

in us getting it done by July next year, but I really don't think we've got time to sit and wait anymore. Yeah, it's clearly something that's close to your heart because you've been through this yourself. You had a cosmetic procedure yourself, didn't you, that went wrong, which means you can't close your eyes. Tell us about that.

Yeah, so I had two procedures. In 2010, I had bariatric surgery, which is weight loss surgery. And I'll be honest, I don't tend to talk about that that much because of the weight bias and, you know, all done in the UK, all with the UK company and a GMC registered surgeon. Unfortunately, you know, fast forward to now, both procedures didn't go well. I've been in the care of the NHS for my eyes since 2014 and because of the complications with the gastric band since 2017 and honestly the complications with the band were life-threatening so I genuinely probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the action of the NHS so I'm eternally grateful and it's

because of those experiences whether you're a cosmetic surgery patient or a non-surgical patient when it goes wrong the impact of that is is very similar there are a lot of emotions and yeah as you say your yours was surgical we're talking about non-surgical but what would you say then to someone who's who's thinking about having a non-surgical procedure what safety advice do you have for them so because as we as we've been very well documented the sector is largely unregulated and it's that saying you know the public don't know what they don't know we have a big issue around illegal what are called predatory coercive adverts on social media that simply no one should be seeing, in particular those linked to prescription-only medicines, which cannot be marketed direct to the public, but we see thousands of them online

every day. I'm in almost daily contact with the Advertising Standards Agency and have reported to Facebook and raised this issue repeatedly. You do need to do your research. The recommendation is that you find a registered regulated health care professional if you choose to go with someone that falls outside of that then there is little to no redress and often if things do go wrong ultimately you'll end up in the hands of a health care professional to try and rectify these complications. And we are seeing an increase in plastic surgeons reporting, seeing an increase in patients where they actually have gone for lip fillers and now need facial reconstructive surgery. This is seriously dangerous stuff that's happening and I do worry about the legacy that we're leaving and storing up as far as

medical issues, psychological problems, the long-term effects so I welcome the change, the licensing must come into effect sooner rather than later. Dawn thank you very much for coming on the programme and sharing your experiences with us this morning, thank you. Thank you. Bit of a sporting theme this week on Women's Hour. Yesterday, we devoted the entire programme to England's women winning the Euros at Wembley and what the historic achievement means for the future of the game. We heard reaction from Dame Heather Rabbitts, the first woman to sit on the FA board. But let's hear now from the former Lioness legend Kelly Smith, who played against Germany the last time England faced them in a European final back in 2009.

We were singing, we were laughing, we were crying, we had goosebumps. I think we've worked so hard throughout our career to help develop and promote the women's game. And it was such a proud moment for myself I've had so many messages from friends afar saying how my generation of players have set this lioness lionesses up to be where they are and the generations before me we can't forget all those women that didn't have as much as investment or or quality or anything that these lionesses now have shown us that they've set an example for women and girls and they've inspired a nation.

It's just, I'm pinching myself because this is what I hoped for when I was playing. They're very humble women that know they have a responsibility and want this responsibility to help grow our national sport. I messaged Leah Williamson, she messaged me back saying,

we did it, we finally did it. I mean, it just speaks volumes of these players. They've gone out, they've delivered when it matters in high pressured situations. They could have crumbled with the pressure of a home tournament, but they just galvanised themselves and they really lived up to all their expectations. It speaks more broadly to an empowerment of all girls that not only can I play the game if I want to, but also I can succeed. And I think that underlying message of how women can feel and girls can feel empowered by watching last night and having that greater sense of I can do

anything. If I work hard enough, I can do anything. And if we continually try and strip away the barriers to equity, we can fundamentally make a difference. And that's why when it was said that actually this is about changing society, it actually is. It is about changing society. And I think the relatability of these women players and their individual stories and their own arc of redemption is what really chimes with audiences, both men, women, girls and boys. It's just normalised now. Women's football is normalised instead of comparing it to men's football, to sport in its own right. And I just want to see these fans now just keep the momentum coming keep supporting the women's program and for the FA and the other organizations to keep investing because once you invest you can see what what can happen. That was England legend Kelly Smith and also you heard

from Dame Heather Rabat there you can listen back to that program via BBC sounds now earlier in the program I asked you about the team spirit you might have experienced being part of a women's sports club and lots of you have got in touch. It's been brilliant. Someone has written in to say my 13-year-old daughter competes in a wonderful team called Team

Gym. She is a junior female team and in 2021 they became British champions. It's a joy to watch how these young girls support and champion each other, how they lift each other when they fall literally and figuratively. When they win, they win together. That is certainly something we're seeing both at the Commonwealth Games that are in day five now in Birmingham and also with England's women's lionesses after they became European champions. Absolutely incredible.

Keep coming in to us, text on social media and email as well via our website. Now, our next guest has worked in the mental health space for 40 years, working as a psychiatrist and psychotherapist. Penelope Camplin has seen many changes in the way we treat serious mental illness. She spent 20 years running the NHS Personality Disorder Unit in Leicester. Penelope Camplin has seen many changes in the way we treat serious mental illness. She spent 20 years running the NHS Personality Disorder Unit in Leicester. She is now retired from the NHS, but is still practising as a psychotherapist and just published her second book, Don't Turn Away, Stories of Troubled Minds in Fractured Times. Good morning to you, Penelope. Can you hear me OK?

Yes, I can. Brilliant. So many interesting topics in your book. But I particularly wanted to concentrate on the label of personality disorder. And it's a term that just seems to get thrown around, particularly in recent years. We've seen it very recently in the Amber Heard Johnny Depp trial. Do you feel as though women are more likely to be diagnosed with some type of personality disorder? Well, Amber Heard in the trial was diagnosed as having borderline personality disorder, which is an American term. We tend to use the term emotionally unstable personality disorder, meaning the same thing. And in that that group 75 percent of the people with that diagnosis um are women so yes why is that

well um we used i mean this is a a very basic generalization but there's a um we used to talk about men acting out and women acting in and there's a sense which to talk about men acting out and women acting in. And there's a sense which men kind of act out on society and their anger gets channeled. So they sometimes end up in prison or sometimes with a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder, whereas women turn all that rage and disturbance on themselves. So they end up feeling worthless. They have problems of self-esteem. They often self-harm and, yeah, become anorexic or whatever.

So it's all, they act on their own bodies. Their disturbance is directed inward. So how would someone know know who hasn't got kind of your experience know the symptoms to look out for, do you think? Well, we're talking about a group of people with deep seated problems forming trusting attachments and not just most obviously to other people. So problems with intimate relationships, problems sustaining friendships, problems with intimate relationships problems sustaining friendships problems with trusting authority figures which can be a real problem at work but also

the problems in one's perception and attachment to oneself so feelings of profound worthlessness a poor sense of personal continuity, which can make identity difficult. It means people are confused about who they are from day to day and fluctuating emotions, which feel out of proportion and out of control. So it can almost feel like the emotions happen to you rather than something that you're kind of linked to and in control of. And that, I mean, it's that that can lead to the suicide attempts and self-harm. So you run the Personality Disorder Unit for 20 years, but you do say in your book that

it's not a term that you actually like. Why is that? and what would you use as an alternative well it's pretty damning isn't it um and certainly you know when i started psychiatry there were debates about whether someone suffered from a mental illness like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or whether they were personality disordered and if they were personality disordered psychiatrists would wash their hands of them so it was it carried this rather negative um prognosis which which actually isn't right and we now know there's lots of therapies and things that can help um from a psychiatry from the psychiatry world's point of view you obviously it's important to distinguish between different groups of patients so for example we can work out what treatments work best. But I think there are better terms. I prefer the term complex post-traumatic stress disorder because I think that's more empathic. It acknowledges

that most of the people who turn up with these symptoms have had really difficult lives and suffered a lot of neglect and in many cases abuse. Do you feel as though we are talking about mental health more often now? Are we talking about it in a more adult way? I think we are and that's really hopeful. I think people are more comfortable talking about their feelings. I think we're more curious about the irrational and I think people are more comfortable talking about their feelings. I think we're more curious about the irrational. And I think we're increasingly aware that mental health issues often arise out of social situations and are linked to poverty and abuse and violence. You write about one of your patients in your book. It's a young man called Moe. And you use it to kind of illustrate how overstretched the system is.

Just tell us about his experience. Yes. So Moe came to me fortuitously, really. I happen to know, be friends with his GP. So he's a young man. He as a child, he had a pretty miserable childhood. His father left a family home when he was about eight and had very little contact with him. His mother was very depressed and was depressed throughout his childhood. And Mo, from a very young age, became the uno wasn't able to trust teachers and other people that, adults that might have helped because he was very scared that if people found out how depressed his mother was, they might take him and his siblings into care. He suffered some bullying, some racist bullying, and from within his community, he was teased with a mother. His mother was described as mental. So pretty miserable childhood. And as a young adult, he eventually actually, last week, I was so overwhelmed that I threw my mobile phone at the wall and it broke and they used that to sort of tick the box that he was violent and told them told him he was too difficult for them to to take on so he very dejectedly went back to his GP who then referred him on to the secondary mental health services

which is a psychiatrist and a team of psychologists and social workers and psychiatric nurses. And they looked at the referral and said, actually, he wasn't complex enough. So there's a real danger that people are slipping through the net here. Absolutely. And I think in the worst cases, it's become a sort of system of exclusion, which is the very last thing you need if you've got a mental health problem. It's always difficult to ask for help, isn't it? But if you've got a mental health problem and you're depressed and anxious and mistrustful, it's even more difficult. And we need to have services that are welcoming and encouraging and reassuring. And I don't, I mean, if you're lucky, you find some good people.

There's plenty of good people working in the service. But generally, the service is so overstretched that I think we spend much too much time thinking about exclusion criteria and thinking how to keep people out of the service. So are things getting worse then for people that have mental health issues, even though we're talking about mental health more often? I think for people with severe mental illness it's pretty grim out there. I think the services are really stretched. I started 40 years ago in a Victorian asylum and was really shocked by what I saw particularly the back wards where you found these patients who'd languished for years and been forgotten. Their stories had been forgotten and they were being treated like children at the best, really, and really institutionalised. And we were so optimistic that when those asylums closed, we could offer something that was less stigmatising and less institutionalising. And for a few years, I think things did progress,

not as much and as fast as we'd have liked. But then, actually, the last 20 years or so, things have been gradually eroding. And that's got worse and worse. And then, of course, COVID came along and made things even more desperate. So, I mean, if you look at recruitment and retention think uh figures in mental health they're really worrying um and important then that you've shared your experiences so more and more people are aware of just what is going on in terms of the mental health service penelope thank you so much for coming on to Women's Hour this morning.

Thank you for sharing your experiences as well. Now, lots of our listeners have been getting in touch. I asked about the team spirit you felt whilst being part of a women's sports team. And Diane has said on text that team friendship and support abounds in netball. I played netball for 58 years in a team which started in 1958 and gave up when I was 70. Lifetime friends made. That's absolutely incredible. We've witnessed it at the Commonwealth Games, haven't we, in Birmingham? We've witnessed it with England's Lionesses winning the Euros as well. Continue to get in touch with us. Thank you for

listening to Woman's Hour. See you tomorrow. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Lucy Worsley, and I want to tell you about Lady Killers. It's a new series from BBC Radio 4. It's a programme that mixes true crime with history, but with a twist. With our all-female team of experts, I am re-examining the crimes of Victorian murderesses through the eyes of 21st century feminists. What can we learn from these women, and would it be any different today? Listen to Ladykillers on BBC Sounds.

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