Woman's Hour - Composer Gabriela Ortiz, North Devon Maternity suspension, Children reading

Episode Date: August 11, 2026

Mexican composer Gabriela Ortiz won three Grammys for her 2024 album Revolución diamantina, and this week sees the work's UK premiere at the BBC Proms, when conductor Gustavo Dudamel leads the second of two LA Philharmonic Proms on Wednesday. Gabriela joins Nuala in the studio to discuss her career and how this work was inspired by Mexico’s 2019 Glitter Revolution, the nationwide feminist protests sparked after the rape of a teenage girl by four police officers, during which activists famously covered Mexico City’s security chief in pink glitter. A hospital in a rural area of England has suspended its maternity services from today because of unsafe levels of staffing. Instead of going to the North Devon District hospital in Barnstaple, women in labour will have to travel more than 50 miles to Exeter. More than 15,000 people have signed a petition against the plans that was initiated by the Liberal Democrat MP for North Devon, Ian Roome. He joins presenter Nuala McGovern along with Jemima Knight who is currently pregnant with her third baby and lives in the area.Imprisonment for Public Protection sentences – or IPPs - were brought in by the Labour government in 2005, resulting in many prisoners not being given a fixed release date. One woman given a two year sentence spent sixteen years behind bars, with no idea of when she would eventually be released. They were abolished in 2012, but figures show more than 2,000 people are still impacted. As Prime Minister Andy Burnham looks into how they will play a part in his plan to reduce the prison population, we hear from Dr Muin Boase, the barrister who led the recent complaint to the UN on the continued use of this sentencing and how it's impacted women. How can we get children to read more over the summer? It's officially the National Year of Reading and evidence suggests that reading more over the holidays can help children hit the ground running in September when schools go back. But for many busy parents, getting children engaged in books and actively choosing reading over the lure of a tablet, TV or anything else can be a challenge. Liberty Venn, founder of the Children’s Book Project, and award-winning author and former primary school teacher Luan Goldie join us to discuss the benefits and share their tips for getting children reading more. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Growing businesses deal with the same problem, too many tools, too much back and forth, and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service, Odu gives you one place, to manage your business. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's O'Dbolo.com.

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Babies are going to be born in laybys. So says the MP, in room, following a hospital in Barnstable, suspending birthing services. Well, we're going to hear from him and also from a pregnant woman concerned about a long journey to hospital while in labour. Also today, the woman who has been called one of the most talented composers in the world. Gabrielle Ortiz will be with me in the Woman's Hour studio as she gets ready for her music to be performed at the BBC proms. And also this hour will hear from Ronnie, a woman who was sentenced to two years but ended up serving 16 due to an IPP.

That's a type of sentence that the Prime Minister wants to review urgently. The twist is they were abolished 14 years ago, we'll explain. Also, are your children reading this summer, or is it a bit of a chore to try and get them to pick up a book? Well, we'll have some tips for you from our guest today. And maybe you have some tips to share with your fellow listeners, what helped your reluctant reader get started? There are many ways to get a touch with us on most smart,

speakers. You can say Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text the program, that number 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. And if that's not enough, you could also send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 0-3-700-100-44. Looking forward to hearing your tips. But first, a hospital in a rural area of England has suspended its maternity services from today because of unsafe levels of staffing. This means instead of going to the North Devon District Hospital in Barnstable, women in Labour will have to travel more than 50 miles to Exeter. Now more than 15,000 people have signed a petition against the plans that petition was initiated by the Liberal Democrat, the MP for

North Devon. That's Ian Room. Who's with me. Good morning. Good morning. Great to have you with us. we also have with us, Jamima Knight, who is pregnant and lives in the area, and we'll hear from Jamima in just a moment. But let me begin with you, Ian. You said that women will be giving birth in laybys because they won't be able to get to hospital in time. Tell me a little bit about that statement and you're thinking. Right. So we are the more remote acute hospital on mainland England.

So to get in a normal car, not an ambulance, but a normal car, from one side of my constituency, say Yilfrakum, to Exeter, will take about an hour and 45 minutes, up to two hours. Now, in an ambulance, that's much longer because an ambulance travels a lot slower, without the blue lights on, obviously, but they're limited. And for me, it's too far of a distance

because every birth is high risk until the delivery of that baby. I've only recently heard of complications last week where people were giving a normal delivery, but unfortunately it turned into an high-risk delivery. And I'm told that if they'd have had to wait over an hour, then it would have been different outcomes. So I'm really, really concerned about stopping the births here

at the maternity unit in North Devon until they can get the staffing issues, which I quite understand. You do understand because we did get a statement from the Royal Devin University Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust. This is Carolyn Mills, Royal Devin, Chief Nursing Officer, who said, we carefully considered the risks involved. While we recognised the additional travel,

this will mean for some families, we believe that concentrating services where safe medical staffing can be guaranteed is the safest option for everyone who relies on our maternity services. Your response? Yeah, well, for me, that's all well and good now. I mean, we were told as a community

only last Tuesday that this was going to happen. And I think that is not on at all. I think the hospital most probably hospital management took the eye off the ball because only this week in one week giving my public appeals, I've had calls from Obs and Guine consultants who said that they wouldn't mind coming to North Devon because North Devon is absolutely a beautiful place to come and live. You know, for someone in the profession, you could not ask for a better place to live for you and your children. So if they are, and I just put this play out, if there are any Obs and Guiney consultants out there,

please get in touch with my office, EM Room MP, because we do want to be. to solve this issue and the solution is to get people to come here and live in North Devon. Beautiful part of the. Is that the solution? Is it literally getting medical staff from one area and moving them to where you are? I think for where we are, I think that's one of the solutions, but obviously it's a much more interconnected system than that because it's just the way the geography is of our hospital. You know, the population's increasing here in rural North Devon. And obviously, during August we have the influx of tourists who come on holiday while they're pregnant and give birth locally and you know the main issue is I I'm thinking of North Devon

District Hospital they're telling me that the solution is is that they haven't got many people doing Hobbs and Geiner I'm saying well we need to attract these people who are qualified to come to North Devon and then looking at this more of a longer term integrated service And I mean what they are saying as well is that it's temporary but I'll come to that in a moment. I do want to bring in Jemima. Good morning, Jemima. Hi, good morning.

Good to have you with us. I understand you're currently 18 weeks pregnant. Have I got that right? Yeah, yeah. So I'm 18 weeks pregnant so I have a little bit more time to plan than some women. My younger sister who lives in Le Bay out of no Ilfrakum is 34 weeks pregnant. So it's much more pressing for her and she is really one of those more remote areas where it's at least a two hour drive for her to get to hospital really.

and it'll be around two hours for me as well. And for me, this is my third baby. My last baby was born in two hours. There are no options for me to get to hospital in time from where I live. So the home birth services have also been cancelled. So that's not an option for me. So my entire family, we're planning to relocate to Bristol because we have family there that we can stay with.

That's the only way that we can see we can get to have a safe birth. So how do you do that, whether for you or for your sister? I mean, when do you relocate? because babies don't always come on a very strict timetable. Exactly. And I mean, it's really dependent on an individual woman's situation. I know people who are having to pay for Airbnb's in Exeter. So then they have a financial constraint as well.

They're choosing to maybe just go a week before the birth, book an Airbnb for a two-week period. And that's costing them like two grand. In my family, my younger sister gave birth 11 days early. So being able to predict that is really scary. So I think it's individual depending on the same. circumstances. Everyone I know is either planning to try and relocate to family all over the country so that they can find somewhere safe to give birth or is considering options like C-sections

and inductions that they weren't planning before so that they can know where and when they're going to give birth. And there are also women who are thinking, I'll just go for a free birth at home with no medical attention and go to A&E in North Devon if things go wrong. And that's obviously none of those options are safe options for women. What about you? I know you mentioned Bristol and family there but what are your plans so so I have two children and one of them will be in school and one in nursery will have to take them out of those childcare settings

and we're going to relocate one to two weeks before my due date and stay in Bristol and use the services there because we'll be 15 minutes away from a hospital which we are appropriate for us I mean I'm talking about this from a perspective as somebody who's had quick labours in the past so I know there's no way I could get to Exeter

from where I live but also for any woman who has that journey no matter how long your labour is, what we know about physiological birth is that spending two hours strapped into a car seat in holiday traffic, in blistering heat,

is not conducive to a positive birth. We need to be able to move, we need to be able to have access to pain relief if we need it, and we need to be in a safe and calm environment. So for no woman, this is going to be an acceptable situation.

I want to play a little of Dr. Vanessa Purdei, the chief medical officer of the trust we're discussing. She told BBC Southwest, health correspondent who's Jen Smith, that the change would just be temporary. Our priority is to make sure that we reopen in North Devon in as soon as time as we can,

but that that reopening is safe and sustainable for the women and birthing people in North Devon. Obviously this is a really emotive topic, isn't it? And women, particularly in the latter stages of pregnancy, are extremely emotional and feeling anxious anyway. So there has been a lot of criticism of the decision. Can you understand that? I completely understand that.

I'm a mum myself. I've had three children born in Devon and so for me and my colleagues here at our absolute commitment is to get this service reopened, recognising the needs of women and birthing people in North Devon. It's a decision we've taken a huge amount of consideration and reaching and on balance of risks, the absolute priorities to make sure that women and birthing people who present have the right level of safe staffing from our specialist obstetricians when they arrive and that's why we've been had to take this decision. on that, Jemima, and I'll come back to you, Ian, in a moment. I mean, I understand that they feel that they don't have the right levels of safe staff.

But the answer to take away all birth options, which is how I feel it has been for me, it doesn't make sense to me to completely remove that. I don't really understand why they couldn't have maintained like a midway fled unit at North Devon for low risk that could then be transferred to Exeter. I also don't understand why this has happened so suddenly. I found out on social media, as many women did, two weeks before the closure. Why wasn't there preparation for putting staff in place before this? Yeah, that's what I feel about that.

Okay. Ian, your thoughts? Does that reassure you at all? Do you have any, you know, been deep into it as Jemima is as well on this issue? Have any idea what that temporary timeline might be? I've no idea to them. It's when they've got the sufficient level of Obs and Guiney, consultant cover, but for me, exactly what Jim Ima says, we've got enough midwives here in

North Devon. We've closed the special care baby unit and I think to myself, actually, we've got enough pediatrician doctors here. Why couldn't have they looked at any alternatives to continue births here? And anybody who did present high risk, we could stabilize the condition and then move them on, as they do now in these neonatal special care ambulance to to the nearest facility, which is either Plymouth or Exeter. But I think it's been a traumatic time for everybody in the community and raised a lot of anxiety for those who are pregnant, and I think it could have been handled in a different way.

We did just receive a statement from the Department for Health and Social Care. They say, while these decisions for the local NHS Trust, we expect clear plans to be in place to ensure mothers, and babies are supported during this temporary closure and for services to be back up and running as soon as possible. This year we've seen record numbers of doctors working in the NHS with 12,000 recruited since July 2024 and 2,000 more midwives.

But the trust says that the suspension is due to staffing shortages as you mentioned in as opposed to funding issues specifically. Let me turn to others that you mentioned briefly in. staff, how do they feel about it? Well, I went out on a 12-hour shift on the call face on Friday with my local ambulance service swast, and it was absolutely eye-opening. We had to now divert patients from the X-36 area

because of medical cover to our DNA from South Malton. Now, that's already 20 minutes on its way from Barnstable to Exeter. It took an hour and 10 minutes to relay a gentleman to get to our D&E. And that is, you know, as I say, on the way to Exeter. So if you're going from Ilfracom, where you've even got to get to, you know, you're 45 minutes away in traffic from Ilfrakum, even to get to South Malden. So you are talking over two hours.

The ambulance service said to me, it's absolutely crazy. You know, the trust will say that they've given the ambulance service some extra money to cover an extra ambulance. But, you know, it takes out. And how the ambulance service works is, that when that ambulance gets to Exeter, it clears, and then it answers jobs in Exeter. So it's also taking ambulance cover away from a remote area, which I don't agree. I've written to the CEO of SWAST, and I've also written to the trust, because we cannot allow

this to happen. Otherwise, we're just going to be creating a deficit. Already, you know, we've heard from Jemima, you know, there's lots of people in my constituency who can't even afford a public transport. So, you know, it's really, yard for people who haven't got money. The ICB promised me that they would put people in accommodation in Exeter and they would also pay for taxes for transport to for appointments. All I've received so far is the usual one where if you're on these benefits, you can claim these sort of costs. But it's not like living in a rural area, you either need a car to get anywhere or if it's public transport, you're at the Beckencore of Public Transport, but a lot of my villages

don't even have a bus service. So with this, Jemima, they talk about. about it being temporary that they're working hard to restore services, would you feel comfortable going to that hospital if it reopened after this talk of staffing shortages? I think it really depends how that reopening looks. Like if we genuinely have enough staff, if we generally have our community, even if we just had our community midwives who are amazing, if they were there, I would feel confident going to that space. But that space is completely closed to us now. And we don't know what temporary means at the moment. So there's a lot of fear surrounding that.

I just wanted to say about the community midwives as well is they've been completely shocked by this as well. My midwife was basically in tears at my last appointment. Apparently they found out about an hour before the press relief went onto social media. They were all called into a room completely blindsided, had no idea this was going on. And they've been given no real tools of ways to support women or additional options to suggest to women. So it's devastating for them as well.

Well, thank you for taking some time out, Jamima. I wish you and also your sister, the best of luck, in the coming weeks. I also want to thank Ian Room, the MP, on that story who initiated the petition against the closures that we've been speaking about this morning. Here's one actually related in some ways. Ray, patients booking Airbnb is to be near hospitals in North Devon. This problem is much broader in the NHS. I've just spent three weeks living in my van in Swansea so I could have daily radiotherapy treatment for breast cancer. Otherwise, it was a three-hour return journey every day.

Thanks for your messages 8.4.8. 4-4 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, joining me in the studio is the award-winning Mexican composer Gabriella Ortiz. She won three Grammys for her 2024 album, Revolution Diamantina, and this week sees the work's UK premiere at the BBC proms, when the conductor, Gustavo Dudamel, will lead the LA Philharmonic prom at the London's, of course, Royal Albert Hall. That is tomorrow night. The work was inspired by Mexico's 2019 Glitter Revolution. This was a nationwide feminist protest that was sparked after the rape of a teenage girl by four police officers. And during this time, activists famously covered Mexico City's security chief in pink glitter.

What an image. Gabriela, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you very much for the invitation. Lovely to have you with us. Mexico City, so glitter as a symbol of protest. Tell me a little bit about how that event affected you and your creativity. Well, you know, I always wanted to write a ballet. So when this opportunity just arose, you know, I wrote this piece for the LA Philharmonic and Gustavo Doudamel, then obviously I started thinking about an important subject. And in 2019, you know, this, you know, young girl was raped by a police officer.

And all these, you know, collective women, you know, groups went to the streets and threw glitter everywhere. But they didn't do only that. I mean, they threw glitter and then became very violent and they grow graffiti in all, you know, these important monuments. And, you know, these protests became very controversial. So

since that day, you know, all these, you know, academics called the day of the glitter revolution because of that. So immediately when I decided to write a ballet, I thought about, you know, I mean, I think I need to speak about, you know, all these, you know,

differences of violins against women. And this is an exploration about that. And what does it take to write for a ballet? It must be somewhat different from some of the other works that you've done. Well, in the case of the ballet, you have to tell story. I mean, you can do something very abstract in terms of music. But I wanted to talk about an important subject. So in this case, I decided to talk about, you know,

the violence against women in Mexico because every single day, 11 women are killed in my country. And he said it, well, I'm an artist. I need to speak about that. Yes, I went to Mexico City with BBC's 100 women 10 years ago. It was 2016 and it was to explore that issue of femicide and which they believed was a crisis point at then 10 years ago, a decade ago. But I did look up some of the figures since then and it has actually gotten worse,

which was very sad news really to read about how those figures have. increased instead of decreased. And of course, your work comes through this time as well. I want to play a clip from, this is Act 6, Speaking the Unspeakable, from Revolution Diamantina. So much energy there. Tell me a little bit about your thinking behind that, now that we've listened to a little. Well, when I decided to explore all the different kinds of violence against women,

I did this collaboration with a Mexican writer, Christina Rivera-Garza, she just recently won the surprise in U.S. For a book, you know, Christina's sister was killed by by her boyfriend a long time ago in the 90s. And so, and this, you know,

the cases still remains there. I mean, you know, the killer is still out there. And so Christina knows this object very well. So what we did is an exploration of all the different kinds of domestic, I mean, domestic violence or physical violence or psychological violence.

So I did this with Christina. And just the little clip that we just heard is it's about, you know, all the different stages of domestic violence. Now there's a, there's a documentation, fortunately, you know, the Mexican government printed a documentation of all these different stages. When you are in a toxic relationship, you can really realize where you are. So that movement exactly talks about that. So at the beginning, the music, it's not so violent,

but as soon as, you know, the music develops becomes more violent. And what about that being performed at the BBC proms? It's a dream. It's fantastic. I mean, you know, I started here. I read that, yeah. Yes, I live in the 90s. You know, I started at the School of Music and Rom and then at City University.

live here for five years and I went to the proms. That was my first time I went to the proms and I remember listening to great music and so as a student for me was like a huge thing. So now the idea that I'm having this, you know, big piece at the proms is really a dream come true. It's, I'm lucky enough to go tonight actually, but I think I need to go back tomorrow night. I should go from tomorrow. I should totally. But for people who haven't been there to try and get across the majesty of the sound, wherever you are sitting or standing within that institution

is something to behold. I can't imagine if you're the person that's creating that, which you have done. Let's talk about, you work with the Venezuelan conductor, Gustavud de Mel, as you mentioned. He has called you a natural genius. It is also the LA Philharmonic

that will be playing. But I understand they came knocking probably 20 years ago now for the first time and you were afraid at that time that you blew it. Can you tell me a little bit more about that story? Yeah, well, you know, my first commission came in 2004, I guess, you know, when I wrote my first piece to the Eleph Harmonic. And years later, you know, it was again, you know,

my second opportunity to write a piece for the Eleph Philharmonic and I remember perfectly well, you know, when the people came to Mexico City and we have this dinner, and then they asked me, well, would you like to write another piece for the early Philharmonic? And I said, of course, yes. And then he told me, well, I asked them.

I mean, who's going to be the conductor? And they said, Gustavo Duda Mel and Del. Oh, my God. So I wrote this piece for Gustavo. And I don't know, we have a very strong connection from the day one. I mean, Gustavo is, I mean, it's a genius. He is the one that is a natural genius.

I mean, he's a fantastic musician. and he understands by this point my music so well. So we have a very strong connection and also the LA Philharmonic. I mean, I wrote eight pieces already for them. So they know my music extremely well by heart. And it's amazing. I mean, every collaboration that I have done with them has been incredible. Gustavus Venezuelan, for those that are not familiar with him.

But let's talk about you as a Mexican woman coming into the world, of classical music. How was that? Hard. Very hard. Well, I mean, yes. I mean, in Mexico, you know, I started, you know, studying and I did my, you know, I went to the university and everything. But then, then for me, you know, to get an international recognition that was hard because as a Latin American composer, you know, it was very difficult. I have to confess that normally, you know, the future of music for so many years has been detected by Europe. And so the fact that I came from

Latin America, the fact that, you know, it's a totally different culture, is a totally different continent. Well, my aesthetic was totally different as well. So it took me a lot of time to, you know, to really... But you didn't have to pair it back. Like, I read that some critics called your music too exotic, for example. And I know rhythm was so important to you and aspects that perhaps were missing in some European classical music. I'm just wondering how you stayed the course to be able to remain yourself and not be, I suppose, reduced to what perhaps they wanted you to be.

Well, you know, everybody thinks about, you know, Latin America, you know, with different kinds of stereotypes or labels. And I'm totally against that because it's really a lack of knowledge about, you know, what Latin America is and about Mexico. It's a huge country and it's a multicultural country. So, I mean, we have so many different things happening. And so the fact that, okay, you know, Latin American music has to be really enjoyable and like fiesta kind of thing.

And yeah, we have that. But we have other things and we can be profound and we can be, you know, I mean, yeah, different. So this idea that, you know, okay, Latin American, so you have to write really, Edansson or a mariachi piece. I mean, it's actually completely unfair. You know, we have the right to do so many things. And when you think about all these European composers, you don't think that, you know, Mozart is exotic composer

or you're not, you know, putting all these labels into these composers. Why, you know, we have to have those labels. I mean, we come from Latin American. So can we get back to little Gabriela for a moment? you had a piano teacher who I believe was the catalyst for your career. Can you tell me about the moment when you decided to become a composer? You know, I decided, I mean, obviously I played the piano and I play the normal. Your parents were musicians as well, folk musicians.

Yeah, they belong to this, you know, a group very important in the 60s, Los Folkloreistas. So I grew up and listened to all this folk music and I love it, by the way. But then I decided to play the piano. My mother, you know, knew that I love music and she was. was the one that, you know, I offered me to play the piano and to get me a piano teacher. And then, you know, when I start playing Bartok's music, you know, Bartok comes from Hungary. And his music is different from Mozart's or Beethoven. And then, you know, it's very rhythmic in certain ways.

So I found a connection with Bartok. And I was playing, you know, these little pieces by this book that it's called Microcosmos. And then I decided, well, if Bartok is writing little pieces for piano, I want to try to do that. So I did. That's what I did. And then I love it. I simply love it. And I decided, well, I don't think I have a future as a pianist, but I think maybe I could have a future as a composer. I should let people know as well that last year, Dudamel performed your work, Etienneic with the Berlin Philharmonic. And it was the first time the ensemble had played a work of a Latin American woman in its 141 year history. Let's just put that out there. So you have this passion, which is incredible for the music that we can hear come through.

But your second passion, I understand, is dancing. And have I got this right that you and Gustavo do the well have gone dancing in Mexico City together? That's right. Well, I mean, Gustavo's father, he's a trombone player and he plays in a salsa band. And I always like to dance. What sort of dancing? Well, you know, flamenco was my passion. At some point when I was 14 years old, I decided, well, I want to become a flamenco dancer.

And I remember having this conversation with my father. And I said, you know, I don't want to keep, you know, doing my high school. I want to move to Spain and dance flamenco. And my father said, okay, I guess you have to finish your high school. And then we can have this conversation again. That was the end of the conversation. But yeah, I love flamenco. I think it's, yeah, at some point, I really.

really, really wanted to be a flamenco dancer. But I also like to dance Mambo, cha-c-cha-cha-cha, salsa, whatever. It's just there. I really like to dance, yeah, that's for sure. And also Gustavo, I mean, Gustavo plays a violin, and he can really improvise. And he says, he's a good musician in terms of, you know, also playing salsa music. So when the event happens tomorrow night, where are you in the Royal Albert Hall when this is taking place? Well, tomorrow?

Yes. I don't know where I'm, I mean, where I'm going to be sitting? I don't know. I mean, normally, you know, because, you know, the alberhole is so huge. Yes. I don't know exactly where I'm going to sit. You know, normally I sit in the aisle so that you, you know, for when you are a composer, you're listening to your piece and at the end of the piece, you have to go on stage and take a bow.

Take a bow, yeah. Exactly. But this time, really I don't know where I'm going to be sitting, but anyway, I'm very excited. Very excited about it. I'm sure it would be a wonderful seat. Have a wonderful night. Thank you so much effort for coming into us this morning.

Yeah, thank you. I'm sure it will be so well received. I need to let people know that the Los Angeles Philharmonic and Gustavo Doudemel will give the UK premiere of Gabriella Ortiz's Revolution the Diamantina

on tomorrow night at the BBC proms. Also, it will be available live on BBC Radio 3 and BBC Sounds. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thanks for all you. messages that are coming in. A lot of the maternity, actually.

Here's one. 90% of women in the north of Scotland have a 110 mile journey can take up to four hours by car to the maternity unit in Inverness. The A9 is one of the busiest roads in the summer. It's another. I feel the concern of affected mothers.

However, you can't have it both ways. If the professionals say that it's unsafe, then we must trust them. There have been too many tragedies because of the lack of staff on maternity war. Now, let me turn to something we're looking forward to doing and that's about women and water. So even if you've managed to avoid heat waves,

wherever you've been this summer, for many of us, the season, summer season, is not complete without a trip to the seaside or to the lake or a swim in a river, to some body of water. Our August bank holiday programme is going to be a celebration of women and water and we'd love to hear from you about your relationship to it. it. Perhaps swimming changed your life. Maybe you work on or beside the water or maybe you've had to overcome a fear of it. Maybe you still have a fear of it. Whatever water means to you,

freedom, work, escape, grief, joy or something else entirely, we would love to hear from you. So on Bank Holiday Monday to give you a flavour, I'm going to speak to the woman aiming to swim in 1,000 Scottish locks. How cool is that? Tell us your story. and also about what the water means to you. Usually ways to get in touch. You can text us 84844 on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Or, of course, you can also email us through our website.

Now, last week, I'm best looking forward. Let us look back for a moment. To Listener Week, which was here on Women's Hour, and we had this huge response to some of the stories we covered. Each and every one of them suggested by you, the listener. From the job market to boat building, celebrating the single life or becoming an adult orphan, you can find all of those discussions on BBC Sounds. Now, the listener Leslie got in touch about her experience of lipidema.

This is a medical condition that causes a build-up of fat, mostly on the hips, buttocks and legs, and almost exclusively affects women. She told us that some medical professionals had never heard of it. Along with Leslie, we were joined by presenter Emily Blake, who documents her experiences of lipidema, on social media. You just know that you're a bit different, but you don't really,

you think it's your fault because that's what you're told. Lipetema, for me, it was painful to begin with before I knew what it was. And I've always had problems of my knees, but I never really thought much of it. I was always just told I'm overweight

every time I went to the doctors. So it was definitely developing. My thighs were getting larger. They sort of had a D-shaped appearance, so sort of curving out. and my arms were getting bigger, and you can sort of see on the upper arm, it's almost like an overhang at the elbow, which is a bit of a classic sign for lipidema. I have had two surgeries, which I've paid for privately, to remove some of that lipidema sort of bulk and the nodules, and it's helped the pain remarkably. And it's just a shame that it's not offered as a treatment officially, because I paid $8,000 for one.

for the other. You don't know you've got it until it's too late for most people. Emily's lucky that she found out when she was young. I was 63. I would like the NHS to recognise it. That is just one of the conversations that was taking place on Listener Week. Listener, Leslie and presenter, Emily Blake. You can find out all the episodes and many great conversations. Thanks so much to all of you that contributed or listened indeed last week and they're all on the woman's hour feed on BBC sounds. Thanks for your messages that are coming in as well. We're going to be talking about reading a little bit later, also particularly reluctant readers. My son is home educated, says one. Books have always been a big part of our lives and a source of connection and joy. Reading has never

been a chore, nor have we forced our child to sit down and practice it. Learning does not always have to be didactic or linear. Our son found reading and final. is difficult and suddenly age eight he could read just like that. It wasn't magic. We supported his learning, but in a child-centered way. But I'm also really interested in how you got the reluctant reader reading. Some tips on that would be, I think, very helpful for some of our listeners. Some say, are they just imitating their parents that are not reading enough?

I'll leave that out there. You can comment 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. But I want to turn next to IPPs. imprisonment for public protection sentences. They were brought in by the Labour government in 2005. It meant some prisoners were not given a fixed release date. Now, these prisoners include women, one woman who was given a two-year sentence

but sent 16 years behind bars with no idea of when she would eventually be released. The IPPs were actually abolished in 2012. After it found that they were meted out inconsistently, that the sentences were too broad. audit times and also could catch up less serious offenders in them. But according to the latest prison data, more than 2,000 people, including a number of women, are still impacted. The sentences are something that Prime Minister Andy Burnham is looking into as part of his plan to reduce the prison population.

He has ordered an urgent review. Let's talk about these with Dr. Mohan Bose, who's a barrister, an international lawyer who led a recent complaint about IPP sentences to the UN. Good to have you with us. Why were they initially introduced? Good morning, Noila. Good to have you. So they were initially introduced because they were designed for violent offenders, essentially.

And so this was under David Blunkett during the Labour era. So they came into force with the Criminal Justice Act 2003 and that entered into force in 2005. So tell me a little bit as well, because I mentioned that they were abolished, but there are still people that are caught up in them. Well, essentially, the way it worked is that there was an initial tariff, and that was a sort of punishment part of the sentence. And once you'd serve that, you would be eligible for release once, if you satisfied the parole board. The second part of the sentence was this preventative period of detention. And what's gone wrong here is that numerous people were swept into the system,

some of whom hadn't committed the most serious of offences. And that was because under the initial act, there was no discretion. And there was a presumption of dangerousness if he'd committed previous offenses. So the effect of that was to sweep a much broader number of people into the, you know, into the center that received prison sentences. And so when the sentences were not abolished, that was not applied retroactively in the sense that those that had those sentences remained having them. How many women were given the sentences? What sort of crimes had they committed? Well, of the, I understand that in terms of the number of women, there weren't as many as men that received those sentences.

So according to Ministry of Justice statistics, around 249 women received them. those sentences. Currently there are 19 women in prison, six are unreleased, and 13 that have been subject to recall. And so what stands in the way of them being released? Well, essentially a lot of people, the psychological effect, and that's the uncertainty of not having a release date, has sort of caused problems amongst the prison population. So the effect is it basically creates the behaviours which leads to kind of vicious cycle. And then often, you know, they're not considered to be safe release by the parole board. Well, talk me through that. How is it decide of who is dangerous and who is not? So it's the same test that is used for

everyone under the parole board test. So effectively, it's whether the test is that, whether it's no longer necessary for the protection of the public. But, The fundamental flaw in the sentence is that the parole board itself doesn't consider the psychological harm of the sentence itself. And the UN Working Group has examined, you know, five cases that we brought, they've examined each individual case, and they found that in all five cases that these people were subjected to arbitrary detention. And it also found that the parole board system itself was not an adequate mechanism for determining, whether they should be released. The reason for that is because the parole board is only looking at future risk,

it wasn't looking at the proportionality to the initial offence. Let me come back to the women as well. Could you give me some examples of women you know that have been given IPPs? What were their circumstances? Well, I know that Ronnie, for example, was involved in a drunken fight. And she broke a flower pot, destroyed some betting slips. And she was inside for 16 years, I understand. And, you know, that's the better part of your life being detained.

And so it's very, it's, the government needs to get a grip of this and essentially deal with these cases. Otherwise, these people will essentially die in jail. Well, a spokesperson for the Ministry of Justice has said it's right that these sentences were abolished and as the IPP annual report shows, support has significantly improved for these offenders with greater access to rehabilitation and mental health support. We're now looking at what more can be done. We do know as well the Prime Minister has announced that indeterminate sentences, IPPs that we're

speaking about, will be reviewed as part of his plan to reduce the prison population. I mean, do you feel hopeful in what you want to happen by listening to some of those statements? No, I don't, I mean, I feel hopeful, but the fact is that we can't have another review. You know, that were just delays matters. So the Justice Committee, and that's the committee that looked at this in 2020, I think it was about three, four years ago, and they found that the sentence was irredeemably flawed. Okay. So we can't keep waiting and waiting. the government needs to take action now.

If they don't take action... What is the action that you want to see happen? I mean, I saw that one group was looking for all prisoners to be resentenced. However, I would imagine that would be a timely and also costly measure at a time when the prisons are obviously on the frontline headlines about overcrowding. Well, so the Justice Committee in 2022 rejected... recommended resentencing and rejected this sentence. And the government has thus far refused to go with the suggestion of resentencing.

And we believe these people need to be released and they need to be released now, except for exceptional circumstances. And in those exceptional circumstances, you could have resentencing. But, you know, there's been about 96 IPP prisons have taken their own lives. And, you know, it makes you wonder, you know, if the government had taken action sooner, could it have prevented some of those people that took their own lives? And, of course, when it comes to people taking their own lives, we do not know their motivations, I will say, if you've been affected by some of the issues

we're talking about in this item, you can find help and support at the BBC Action Line online. But before I let you go, the impact that IPPs or these indeterminate sentences have on the families, whether it's partners, whether it's wives, whether it's children or the partners of the women that have them. How would you describe that? I mean, it's had a devastating impact on families. You know, the children that have been separated from their parents, the partners that have been separated for years and years. And that indeterminacy not only affects the prisoner themselves, but also their family members. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Moyen Bose. Dr. Moyne also mentioned Ronnie, Ronnie Sinclair, who wasn't able to join us. I did mention her at the top of the program who was given a sentence of two years, but ended up serving 16. And again, if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this discussion,

please go to the BBC Action Line online for links to help and support. I want to turn now to the subject of wonder. This is something, we devoted a whole program to earlier this year. How do we find it? How do we keep it? As part of our quest, I was joined by Natalie Fay, the award-winning environmental campaigner,

turned singer-songwriter, who found wonder in the simple act of sitting under a tree, every day for a whole year. Welcome. Thanks so much for having me. And the oak, I brought a sprig with me from the tree this morning. So the tree is with us. Okay, describe this particular tree, how you found it, how it was the chosen one. Well, yeah, it's not what you might imagine when you think of an oak tree as a majestic oak or a mighty oak,

but actually it's quite small and petite, quite low to the ground. And I moved to Clevedon just outside of Bristol. And lo and behold, there was this solitary, beautiful oak tree looking out over a local cricket pitch and off into the mendip, facing the east, and so facing the rising sun. And I just knew instantly that was my new oak friend. So how has it been to go under the oak tree and how long? Take me through the process of it, what you do. So I decided to just make it a regular commitment and I would regularly go and visit this particular oak tree and it was winter. And so this oak to me just looked like it was in a fairly boring field, you know, a nice hill, a little local patch of wild.

And throughout the year, the first year I was sitting with it, I became aware of the grass growing up higher and higher and then it started to explode. And then by summer it was an absolute riot of flowers and insects. And I was sitting in a meadow. And that was an incredible discovery. I'm fascinated by that trajectory and that change that must have come. So how was it for you?

It was an incredible. journey and it was that deepening of noticing the changes. It's like living with a child. You don't notice them shooting up because you see them every day. But with the seasons changing, it was so slow and winter was quite tough. I was buffeted by winds. It was... How long are you staying underneath the tree? Usually I'd be there for 20 minutes to half an hour, but if it was like really bad weather and I had to go and be somewhere that day. So I would have to go in the morning, whether it was raining or not. So winter was very much its own pace and it was hard and I was wrestling with, why am I doing

this? And sometimes I'd take a hot water bottle. But then I noticed the narcissus starting to grow beside me and the anticipation of the day that it would actually burst was great. And little moments like that became real markers of my year. And the whole point as well of my year with the tree was to connect with nature in a different way to really become in relationship with nature rather than just being an observer. Natalie Fay there. You can listen to the full program on Wonder. That was wonderful on BBC Sounds. Now, something I was talking about a little bit earlier that you began chiming in on, the subject of reading.

And specifically, how can we get children reading? more over the long summer holidays. This year is officially national year of reading. This is a campaign by the government and the National Literacy Trust hoping to inspire more people to make reading a regular part of their lives.

Reading over the summer holidays may help children a little bit more once they get back to school in September, but for many busy parents, the lure off the tablet, the TV or summer fun can make getting a kid to pick up a book easier said than done.

I'm joined by. by Liberty Venn, the founder of the children's book project, which is a charity which gifted more than a million books to children. Good morning, Liberty. Good morning. That is a great number, isn't it? And award-winning author and former primary school teacher Luann Goldie. Good morning.

Good morning. Great to have both of you with us. So, we have a lot of questions to ask. Let me start with you, Liberty. I mean, getting children to read, is it important still in the same respect? And what are we talking about with reading? This is a conversation we were having.

Does it have to be a hard copy book? It doesn't matter if it's a tablet that they're reading on? So reading fundamentally can bring us so much joy, can expose us to new worlds, it can teach us skills of empathy. So yes, it's important. I think the schools shoulder the burden of teaching children to read, but there's so much more that we can do around the edges

to help children experience the joy of losing themselves in words and pictures. But it doesn't need to be a physical book. National Year of Reading is encouraging children to read on all platforms, to read comics, listen to audiobooks, but also to be able to own your own book, to lose it down the side of the bed, find it again, see it as something that you might return to and have read to you night after night,

I think it's a fundamental part of identifying as a reader. I love this one, just talking about, it doesn't matter what the book is. My son was not interested in reading about the cat sat on the mat, etc., age two and three, but I had lots of recipe books, and he loved looking at the pictures. We talked through the recipes and what was in them,

so beef bourguignon, very fancy, And similar recipes were popular. And he learned to read the letters. He also developed a great love of cooking and now age 34 is very competent at reading and cooking. I love that story. Let me bring you in here. I mentioned you were a primary school teacher.

Does it make a difference if kids are reading over the summer? It makes a huge difference. If you think about yourself when you go off on holiday for a week or two and you don't do anything, then you get back to work on that Monday. It's tough, right? What's your password? Yeah, everything just goes.

So imagine for children, the rate. their learning when they're in school, then they go off for six weeks, sometimes over six weeks. They come back and as primary school teachers, you do notice that they go back a bit across all subjects, their maths, their literacy. So why not get them reading over the summer? So here's another one. My eight-year-old daughter got into reading when we agreed she could stay up for an additional 20 minutes in bed if she picked a book to read. Now she reads at bedtime and in the morning as well. That's a clever little tip. What would you suggest, Luan, for the reluctant Realtant Reader. For the reluctant reader, there are a lot of children, because I work with young people, and there are a lot of children that will say, I don't like reading. I'm not into books. Take that with a pinch of salt because you go into a library. There's a book for everyone. There is something, whatever your interest is, there is a book that you can find for that child or that child can find for themselves. Let them choose. Don't pick out the books that you read when you were a kid because you have that, you know, special connection with the famous five or whatever. Let them pick what they want to read. Let them search.

And so, for example, they might search one of the books on the 2026 summer reading Challenges, Skyler and K-pop head teacher and about 11-year-old girl that's obsessed with K-pop. Tell me more about that. Well, when I was a primary school teacher, lots of my kids were really, really into K-pop. There was also another group that hated K-pop, and that's also fine. I'm really into K-pop. During the lockdowns, I used to watch a lot of K-pop content with my daughter, and she got really good at reading because, obviously,

all in Korean, so she had to read the English subtitles. And I just had this idea that I wanted to write a series of books set in the K-pop fandom. So that's what they're about. There are plenty of children who spent all last summer holidays watching K-pop Demon Hunters. So now they've got a book they can read as well. What about the parents? Because I know when I speak to adults, many of them, I have a great joy in this job of reading many books for work.

And it's definitely, I feel, rewired my brain to be able to sit with that book longer, from when I've really immersed myself here. But a lot of adults say, I don't have the time or that the phone pulls them in and that they just, and we know the children imitate adults. Yeah. I think that for parents,

the first thing is not to feel an undue sense of responsibility over the summer, but to see it as something that can be fun, a pleasurable way to spend time with your child, there's no sort of golden kind of path of, you know, reading that one should take with ones, child. It's about having fun together and taking the pressure off. So it might be that as a parent, you could revisit the books that you enjoy together when they were younger. It might be that

perhaps if you're time poor, they could just sort of see you reading a physical book for the first time rather than perhaps reading on your phone. You can put books around the home. You can bring books into other parts of the day than just bedtime. So I think as a parent, there are lots of ways of making it a positive reading environment. Here's one. This summer we started Family Book Group. all sit reading the same book and talk about it. I thought we watch TV together and we talk about it, so why don't we do the same with the book? They used to read a lot as kids, but as teenagers, it's almost stopped.

So far, I'm the slowest reader, says Jane. That's a lovely idea, though. Great idea. I love the idea that you're making reading a fun occasion, a treat. It's not confined to bedtime. It's not homework. Completely removing the pressure and making it something that's shared and you're all in it together. Yeah, yeah.

And I suppose particularly... Talking about the books together. Yeah, I suppose when people are on... on screens as well, we never know what they're reading, do we? Like whether it's in your family or just, I don't know, on the tube, for example. What about audiobooks? What are your thoughts on that? I'll start with you, Luann. Is it the same? It is the same. Yeah, all of the books, my children and my adult books, they all have audio versions and they're fantastic. You know, it's not me reading a book out. It is a professional who comes in and they read it. And I've heard the Skyla ones and they made them really, really, really funny, you know. And of course it's reading. You're engaging with a story. You, it's perfectly valid. Here's some stats. This from the National Literacy Trust says almost half, 47.3% of children and young people now listen to audiobooks or podcasts. So perhaps a gateway for getting in. More tips. We bought my grandson a Beano subscription for his birthday in December of 2025. In his last school year,

he has not only caught up, but is now reading at the year above standard. Finding the right material to engage them is key, so says Ali. I think children during the school day, they're very conscious of where they are in the pecking order versus their peers in terms of their reading ability. And that can impact their confidence and their belief in what they like to read. But actually having an understanding of what you like is what makes you a reader. And if that's comics or its graphic novels, which can slightly more kind of adult version of that, or it's poetry, so be it.

And I think we should all, we should, you know, we should encourage children to pursue their interests. Liberty Venn, founder of the Children's Book Project, Luann Goldie, thank you both very much, some food for thought. Luan's new fiction for Adults between yesterday and tomorrow is out now. If you'd like to get involved in the Children's Book Project, they've nearly 700 points nationwide where you can drop a book off to them. Or you can visit the website, children's bookproject.com.uk. And find a drop off point near to you. I'll drop back in tomorrow. I'll see you at 10. That's all for today's woman's hour.

Join us again next time. Parenting a young child today means navigating a whirlwind of advice, opinions and relentless information. Tell me about it, Katie, but the good news is CBB's parenting download is here to take the edge off. Join me, Katie Thistleton, Radio One presenter and new mum. And me, Governor B, Mobo Award winning rapper and dad of two, as we discover and unpack what it really means to be a parent. From the art of negotiation to tips on dealing with parental anxiety. Each episode, we're joined by well-known parents and trusted professionals to share their own experiences. People say you never know until you have your own, but no one ever really gets into what that means.

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