Woman's Hour - Consent, Top Fuel drag racing, Grey hair

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

To mark our 80th anniversary, Woman's Hour commissioned a survey of 2,000 women across the UK to explore how women feel about using their voice in different areas of their lives, from the most public to the most private spaces. One of the questions we asked was: How many times, if any, have you felt unable to say no in a sexual encounter? More than one in three women surveyed said this had happened to them, and over a quarter said it had happened more than once. The figures were even higher among younger women. Anita Rani is joined by Faustine Petron, who founded the Make It Mandatory campaign five years ago and has been campaigning for the government to extend Relationships and Sex Education (RSE) to all 16 to 18-year-olds; Ellie Softley, a founding member of the charity Everyone's Invited, she created the organisation's education programme and has discussed consent with young people in schools across the UK; and Dr Paula Hall, founder of Pivotal Recovery and a psychotherapist with more than 30 years' experience specialising in porn addiction.At the peak of her fame, Julianna Glasse had a successful career as a Christian pop singer, a high-profile marriage and a respected place within the evangelical community in which she was raised. She even sang at President Trump's first National Prayer Breakfast. Then she started reading certain books that opened her eyes and changed the course of her life. She left her church, her marriage and eventually became CEO of This Is What Happens When Women Read, a global movement supporting four million women in 67 countries as they seek greater autonomy. She joins Anita to discuss the movement and her memoir of the same name.There aren't many sports in which men and women compete directly against each other, but drag racing is one of them. In Europe, women aren't just competing in the world's fastest motorsport, they're dominating it. Top Fuel drag racing sees two vehicles race from a standing start over 1,000 feet, reaching speeds of up to 300mph in just three to four seconds. Sweden's Susanne Callin is a two-time European Top Fuel Champion and joins Anita. Susanne's story is available to watch on BBC iPlayer by searching Global Women, or on the BBC World Service YouTube channel.Olivia Colman has joined the growing ranks of women embracing grey hair and ditching the dye. Freelance journalist Kate Spicer discusses the appeal.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Part of why I blew the whistle was I didn't want to lay in bed in 20 years. Having seen another million people die, I know that I could have done something when I had a chance. This week on the Interface, we're talking to Francis Howigan. The Facebook whistleblower who leaked the documents that changed how the world saw social media. And now she is the subject of Aaron Sorkin's latest movie, The Social Reckoning. So join me, Thomas Germain.

And me, Jess Maddox, for The Interfx. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the program. Woman's Hour turned 80 yesterday and if you missed our special broadcast, Noola was in front of a live audience at the Glasgow Women's Library. You can listen back to that on BBC Sounds. Well, to mark the landmark birthday, we commissioned a survey of 2,000 women across the UK

to get a sense of how women use their voice in different parts of their life. Today we'll be looking into one of the questions asked. How many times, if any, have you felt unable to say no in a sexual encounter? More than one in three of all women surveyed said this had happened to them and over a quarter of all the women surveyed said it had happened more than once. While this morning we'll be delving into this further and of course we want to hear from you. So do get in touch.

You can remain anonymous. The text number is 84844. I'll also be speaking to Juliana Glass about her memoir. This is what happens when women read. Juliana was a successful Christian pop singer with a highly respected place in the evangelical community until she began questioning the beliefs she'd been brought up to believe, which led her to splitting up with her husband and the church. Juliana will be here. And how about being in a race that lasts three to four seconds?

Suzanne Callin is a drag race champion. Her nitro-meatine-fueled vehicle can reach well over 300 miles an hour. The speed demon will be taking us into her world of the fastest sport on earth. And going grey, are you? Well, Paris Fashion Week revealed that natural locks of plenty of A-listers, Sarah Jessica Parker, Lisa Bonnet, Andy McDowell, and Olivia Coleman, who looked incredible at the Mewo Show with natural long curly grey hair. Men have been allowed to go grey gracefully for a long time.

Are women finally doing the same? Your thoughts and opinions, welcome on everything and anything we're talking about today. Get in touch in the usual way on most smart speakers. It's Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can WhatsApp the programme, 0700-100-444. You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Send us an email through our website and the text number once again 84844.

But first, woman's hour, we are going to be discussing the issue of consent. To mark our 80th anniversary, we commissioned a survey of 2,000 women, as I just mentioned, across the UK, to get a sense of how women feel about using their voice in different parts of their life, from the most public to the most private spaces. And one of the questions we asked, how many times, if any, have you felt unable to say no in a sexual encounter? More than one in three of all women surveyed said this had happened to them, and over a quarter of all the women said it's happened more than once. The numbers are even higher for younger women.

44% of women aged 18 to 29 and 45% of women who are between 30 and 45, said they felt unable to say no at least once. So today we're going to talk about consent in all its complexity. We have a group of brilliant women in the studio who have really driven change and knowledge in this area, helping other women and men find their voices, and some of whom have had their own journeys in speaking out. Forstein Petron founded the Make It Mandatory Campaign five years ago, fighting to get the government to extend relationship and sex education

to all 16 to 18-year-olds after realizing the difference it would have made to her own teenage years. Ellie Softly is a founding member of Everyone's Invited, a charity dedicated to exposing and eradicating rape culture. She created their education program and has discussed consent with young, people in schools across the UK and Dr Paula Hall Paula is the founder of pivotal recovery she has been a psychotherapist for over 30 years who specialises in porn addiction and has seen firsthand the impact that the digital world has had on multiple generations welcome all of you thank you for taking the time to

come and talk to us about this I think we should start by looking at those figures Ellie let's come to you first because you work in sex and relationships in education what do you make of them I mean, look, all of us, everyone's invited, and I'm sure across the sector, and I'm sure for a lot of women as well, don't find those numbers surprising in the slightest. We live in a world in which the most common demographic to report rape is 14-year-old girls. And when we go into schools and we talk to young people about consent, there is still this confusion over what it looks like, what it means,

how it feels. And so with our everyone's invited program, what we're really trying to do is empower young people to have those conversations and to ground those experiences in their reality because a lot of the time

young people, they view rape and sexual violence is something that happens by a stranger down a dark alleyway, which, you know, it does happen. But for the majority of women, you know, six and seven women, They know the person that has hurt them.

And I think we have to be honest about that and then give them the tools to be able to communicate, not just physically, but verbally, about how they want to engage sexually. I like this, I don't like this, this feels good, this doesn't feel good. And it's no surprise, really, when we talk to young women, that they don't feel like they can speak up because, you know, you know, society's telling them to be quiet a lot of the time. And in pornography, they are also silent a lot of the time.

Paula, you've been working as a sex therapist for over 30 years. What's your reaction to those? And do you think our experiences of understanding consent have changed? Yes, absolutely. I mean, like Kelly, completely agree that unfortunately it's not surprising to see that change. It's something that was here all the time and hearing also from men's experience of not knowing how to not knowing what to say. But yes, reflecting on over 30 years of working as a sex therapist, it's really interesting

thinking of how consent has changed. So, for example, 70 years ago, a long, long time ago, consent was saying, I do at the altar. That was it. That was consent. And sex was very much something that was men's prerogative and was women's duty. And then, of course, we hit the 60s, 70s, 80s, things really change. revolutionary book by Nancy Friday called My Secret Garden

actually started talking about women having sexual fantasies, women had desires, women had fantasies, and this was all seen as something very, you know, very, very kind of revolutionary at the time. But since then, the internet has really changed the way in which we understand consent. And I think as something we'll almost certainly talk about more later in the programme,

there is a difference between consent and having a voice. And I think that's the challenge really now. is that even if you do say yes, do you know what you're saying yes too? And I think that's very different from how it was perhaps in the grandparents' day when they were saying yes at the altar. 844. We've had a message straight in from Rosa, who's 82, and she says, in the 60s, we did not even know that no was an option. Forstein, the numbers are even higher for younger women.

44% of women aged 18 to 29. 45% of women between 30 and 45 said they couldn't say no. What are young women saying to you about consent? So I think for us at Make It Mandatory, we're seeing that consent is not only an education issue, whilst education does have a role to play, it is also an attitude issue. There are people who do know what consent is, but they choose to ignore a woman or girl's voice when she expresses that. So there is a lot of cultural work yet to be done, I think, alongside education in changing. misogynistic and patriarchal attitudes. But I think that as Paula mentioned, the internet, the rise of AI, and all of these different

platforms, I get young girls, girls as young as 14, 15, reaching out to me saying, my brother's been watching Andrew Tate. And Andrew Tate has many times, you know, all these influences have said that being in a relationship is almost consent in and of itself. And then these are the kind of attitudes that boys in these girls' class have. And it makes it really, really hard to go from there. And we will get to how you counteract those. But before we do, I'd like to talk a bit about your own experience

of finding your voice in this area and as a campaigner. So my journey to where I am today has been, yeah, quite a tumultuous one. I think, so I met this boy in my college when I was 16 years old. It was my first ever relationship. So I had no kind of benchmark. I had nothing to compare it to. And the relationship started off quite normally, I'd say. I think this is a really important point to make

because so many people ask survivors things like, why on earth did you get with him if he was so awful? No woman or girl would actively choose to get with someone horrible. All abusive men seem lovely at first. So I met this boy at my college, and I was in a relationship with him. And I think a few months down the line, it started to get now what I recognize as controlling, but at the time being so young

and not having had any education on this at school, I genuinely perceived this as loving and caring behaviour rather than something that was sort of abusive. And it's only when the police later became involved a few years down the line that I realised actually everything that's happened to me is a form of domestic abuse and my ex-partner was actually sent to prison

whilst I was still a teenager and I think that experience of being out of that relationship and having the space to process what happened to me and unpack it made me realise that I was at such a vulnerable age and I had no education from this at school and that made me kind of delve into make it mandatory and it all started with a petition at university

it all started with a petition at university so it was a very difficult time I needed to because whilst I was going through the court case against my ex-partner, I was also applying to read undergraduate degree at Cambridge. So stressful in and of itself, but this was really, really hard time. You know, I look back now, I was just saying this the other day to my mom and I was like, how did I do that? When I was reading about you, I thought the same thing. I just, I can't, I'm like, was that me? I just can't believe how much I was going through and that I've come out the other side. So I kind of research

online, what provision exists for education. I didn't know anything about it. I was like, let me get clued up on education and what exists out there. And I saw that relationships and sex education is only compulsory in primary school all the way up to year 11, so 16. Once you turn 16 and you do sixth form or college, there's no mandatory education on these topics whatsoever. And that loophole in the law and me kind of connecting that to my experience, being 16, not having access to this,

made me think I have to do something about this so someone else doesn't go through it. At what point in the relationship did you realise that you were being controlled? I think, to be completely honest with you, I think I only properly realised that once the police got involved. I just, I couldn't see it. I think it's very easy to be kind of blurred, especially if you're in a manipulative or coercive situation and they'll be telling you, for example, in my situation,

I would go to work and he would physically show up to my workplace to ensure that I was actually at work. And he would say things like, it's caring, it's loving, it's because I just want to make sure that you're okay, you know, how it is for women and girls nowadays, the world doesn't say, he would kind of flip it back onto me. So I think it took me a very long time to come to terms with that.

How did you eventually manage to leave? So what happened was it was lockdown. Lockdown was announced. And I know for most people, lockdown being announced was horrible, a horrible experience, very isolating experience. For me, it was once in a lifetime opportunity to break up with him. when that lockdown was announced something twigged

and I thought I actually have to get out of this because it was getting worse. It went from coercive and controlling to violent and that's when I thought if I want a chance at another life I really have to split up with him. So the lockdown came and that's when I took those steps

to kind of exit the relationship. And what difference do you think that a relationship and sex education could have made for you? I think fundamentally it would have given me language. I'm 25. I didn't know what coercive control was at that time. I didn't even know it was a thing. If I had had lessons on this in school, a safe space with a teacher talking about the subtle signs of abuse and how coercive control starts, I think I could have left that relationship before

it turned violent and before I stayed in it for four years. Ellie, you are out in schools delivering sex and relationship education. How do you build that kind of awareness that can help people spot unhealthy relationships. And then where does that, where does consent fit into that? So we work across primary schools and secondary schools. And we have quite a different approach to both of those different settings. As I said previously, for us, it's really about giving young people autonomy in a conversation. And that really goes down to empowering them with the language.

you know, for, you know, I have these memories of when I go into schools and I talk to young people about cyber flashing or about, you know, upskirting. And you see this realization on these 13, 14 year old girls' faces that, oh my God, what happened to me has a name. It has a name. And you see them holding each other's hands in an assembly. And that's what we want to do. We want to give them the opportunity to label what's. happened to them. But more than that, we want to genuinely be preventative. And right now, we're being reactive. And so that's where our primary school program comes in. And what we're doing is we're working with students in year five who are about nine and ten years old. And we're introducing consent through emotional literacy. So we're teaching them, how does something make me feel?

And what does that mean? How do you do that with someone so young? What do you say to them? Yeah. So it's actually interesting because they know, they understand. So like if you go into a room of 10 year olds and you say, does everybody know what consent is? They all go, yeah, it means giving permission to do something? And you say, do you understand what happiness feels like? And they'll explain. Yeah, it feels, I have it in my chest and my stomach and I feel like I want to jump. And so they understand these emotions and they can read each other's emotions. So we're helping them label them. Then we're helping them regulate. emotions that might be negative for them. So if you experience anger or frustration, how does that make you feel? And how can we respond in a way that is healthy? So we teach them breathing exercises, counting around their fingers. And then we talk about consent. And we do this through a multitude of different ways, but one of them is through an ice cream game where we asked the whole class, like, would anybody like some ice cream? And the crowd goes wild. Everybody's like, me, me, me. And then you say, well, what if the ice cream was baked bean flavoured?

And they all go, oh, no. And you say, okay, so you were happy with ice cream. But when I gave you more details about what was going to happen, you weren't so sure about that. It's what, to your point, Paula, you know, knowing what you're even consenting to. Can we bring porn into the conversation as well? And how does that impact the expectation of sex and the understanding of consent? Some research I was involved in a couple of years ago with Ladd Bible showed that 80% of Gen Z were getting sex education from pornography.

80%. That's a huge percentage. It's a huge amount. And of course what porn is teaching is not just sex, but actually a sexual script. It's actually teaching that men know what they want, know what to do, no conversation is happening. There's no consent on porn. Of course, that doesn't mean it's not happening off screen beforehand. But there's no consent shown. But men are in charge.

They know what they want. Women will go along with that script, sometimes seemingly quite reluctantly, but in the end we'll enjoy it. And I think, again, this is where it's really important to differentiate between consent and women having a voice. Because simply saying yes at the beginning of a sexual encounter, which may have happened with pornography,

doesn't mean that the way in which that encounter, evolves, you're still saying yes to. And I think what is really being lost with modern pornography is, well, one, the shock factor, and that's frankly all about the attention economy and the digitalisation of pornography. So that's partly to do with that, but it's also that women have lost their voice in saying what they enjoy. And I think also the expectations, if that is what sex is, if that's the script, and that's what's meant to happen, then that's what I'm expected to want and expected to do. It's just as damaging for men. Absolutely. Absolutely. There are, yeah, boys, I should say. Yeah, absolutely. And for a lot of young men, and it's predominantly

young men that I'm working with, a lot of young men, what they're learning from pornography, they're not particularly comfortable with. And they're not sure. The message they're getting is that you don't need to ask. So if they don't ask, though, then they can be accused of being aggressive, being misogynistic. If they do ask, then actually, where's your sexual confidence? You're being a bit of a wuss, you're being a bit of a wim. So they return to porn instead. It's easier than actually having a relationship.

Faustine, do you think what children being taught in schools is keeping up with the challenges? No, I think that, you know, everyone's invited, recently had an amazing new campaign about the harms of AI. And I think that the relationships and sex ed, we know it works. We know it's a proven way to help children understand healthy relationships and so on. But the problem is it needs to keep up to date with the times. Everything is fast evolving with technology. And I think the curriculum must stay up to kind of speed with that. I'm going to read.

I've got lots of messages coming in. 84844 is the text number. One here saying I'm a police officer working in public protection for many years. These debates are so important brought up by a strong and independent woman. I felt women should be empowered to say no to push back and be intolerant of misogyny. However, my journey has seen me understand that the issue is not women, the issue is male culture and how some men interpret it. This is a debate that needs to be heard many, many times. In 2023, the office of the Children's Commissioner said that the average age at which children

first see pornography is 13, meaning some of course see it much younger. How do you start conversations about consent? I know we've picked up on this, but where do you begin? And I'm saying this to there might be people, there will be parents. who really are leaning in to listen and probably quite scared of what their children may or may not be looking at or what's ahead of them. Where do you begin? It's totally understandable to feel that fear

and also maybe to not really know how to start that conversation because we live in a society where we don't really talk about sex and I think that's fundamentally part of the problem why young people go towards porn because they don't know where else to go. But I think if you're wanting to start having these conversations I mean, you cannot start soon enough. And I truly believe that.

And everyone's invited is always saying, you know, our work is so reactive and we just have to be more preventative. So being able to start those conversations early and also giving the message that communication is going to be the groundwork for good and happy sex. And all people and all young people deserve to have. And pleasurable sex. Pleasurable sex and deserve to have that. And so actually,

it's not this awkward, you know, weird, boring thing that your teacher wants you to kind of talk about consent all the time. It is something that is fundamentally the beginning of a good and pleasurable sexual experience. And that it is a responsibility of both parties to be ongoing and specific and to know what they're consenting to, but also to check in and to make sure, you know, it's not just on girls and boys to say, this makes me feel uncomfortable. It's on the other party to also say, How do you feel? Is this okay? Yeah. Paula, we've had a message come in that I want to read out because I'm very aware that we're talking about something and we know from our survey that lots of women have experienced it. And it might be bringing things up and a lot of women listening. I'm going to read this out and see what you have to say.

It says, hello, this happened to me multiple times as a young girl and woman. The one that stands out the most in my mind was in a French exchange trip where I was heavily pressured into a sexual act until I relinquished. I turned 50 this year and I still live with a shame. I cry and tremble as I type this message and it makes me so sad for my younger self and scared for my two teenage daughters and that's from Anonymous in Hampshire. And actually I was really struck full steam

when you were talking about your story earlier on in the programme how actually what you were also demonstrating is how this can happen to strong, independent, intelligent, highly attractive women as well. And I think so often there is shame around these issues. And that obviously happens for women, but the shame also for men who do not know

what they're meant to do or fear that they may have crossed a line. And I think being able to recognise that actually these, it is not your fault, it is not something actually about you. We are at the moment the victims of culture. And both men and women, both straight and gay, we are victims of what we are particularly, culture at the moment. And I think that's what we need to begin to address.

And whilst I wholeheartedly think education is important, what we also know is a lot of young people actually need a resource, or want a resource that they can turn to anonymously for advice rather than waiting for the right thing to come up in school or at home, somewhere that they can with confidence turn to to actually find out, is this normal, is this okay? How am I meant to feel about this? has this happened to anybody else?

So I think that's something that the government really needs to begin to look at. And finally, Fulstein, even though we can talk a lot longer for this, but we'll continue the conversation on our socials. You're driving real change, but consent feels like a conversation that we've only just started. So what advice or message do you have for survivors? I actually think Paula made such an important point. I think abuse thrives in shame.

I think spaces that feel shameful just help to silence us further. I have really found my voice with my story and I really hope that that will not be in vain and it will be of use to other women who might relate to things I've said today about being checked up on and might make them think that actually this is not caring but it might be a sign of something deeper

and something more worrying. I would encourage them to speak to a loved one, speak to anyone that they feel comfortable to and fundamentally remember that shame does have to switch sides. It's nothing you've done wrong and it's everything to do with the person who is being abusive towards.

you. Thank you. And I want to finish with a message from a listener that was sent in saying, I encourage my daughters to have scripts for what they could say and do in situations where they felt under pressure. In my thinking, this meant that they had responses that they could draw on in those moments. And so a stronger chance of standing their ground in pressured situations. For me, it also made clear to them that they have a voice and agency in what happens in their lives. And talk to your sons too. Absolutely. 8444 is the text number. I want to thank my guests, Faustine Petron, Ellie Softly and Dr Paula Hall. And we're going to be digging into more of the findings of our commissioned poll in future programmes

where we'll be discussing issues such as women not prioritising themselves and putting the needs of others before their own. So a lot more to come. And I must add that if you've been affected by anything you've heard in the programme today, you can find links for support on the BBC's Action Line website. And we have a statement from the Department of Education, a spokesperson said, at a time when many young people are navigating harmful content and damaging influences online, it's never been more important to help them build positive relationships based on kindness, respect and consent. That is why this government is making relationships and sex education

mandatory for all further education students under 18, ensuring every young person has access to this vital learning and supported by a new expert advisory group that will help teachers tackle the most sensitive topics with confidence. The Education Secretary has taken this further, with a new whole-setting approach to tackling misogyny head-on, giving schools and colleges the practical tools, training and support they need to challenge harmful attitudes earlier. And as I said, we will be carrying on discussing more of the findings of our poll, which was conducted by the research company Opinium. And there is a link to the full results on today's episode.

Part of why I blew the whistle was I didn't want to lay in bed in 20 years, having seen another million people die, and know that I could have done something when I had a show. chance. This week on The Interface, we're talking to Francis Howigan. The Facebook whistleblower who leaked the documents that changed how the world saw social media. And now she is the subject of Aaron Sorkin's latest movie, The Social Reckoning. So join me, Thomas Germain. And me, Jess Maddox, for the interface. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

Load page. Now, there aren't many sports where men and women compete directly against each other, but drag racing is one of them. And in Europe, women aren't just competing in the world's fastest motorsports, they're dominating it. Top fuel drag racing sees two vehicles compete from a standing start to cross a finish line just a thousand feet away. They reach an incredible 300 miles per hour, but the race only lasts three to four seconds. So in the time it's taken me to read this sentence, it's done. Well, Sweden's Suzanne Callin is a two-time European top fuel champion and has made a film about her life in the fast lane for the BBC's World Service. And I'm delighted to say, Suzanne joins me now in the studio.

Congratulations on retaining your title for a second year. Thank you very much. Take us into your world, Suzanne. What is top fuel drag racing? I think you explained it so well there. You really got it all in. We literally tried to go as fast as we can on a very short distance on a straight track. What are these vehicles like?

Describe, but they're not cars, are they? No, they are dragsters. So they're literally 10 metres long, have really small wheels at the front, really big ties at the back, massive wing, massive engine. And basically like an arrow. And there are different categories of drag racing, aren't there? Yeah, there's loads of classes. They literally range, like if you go to a drag racing event,

it's all classes. You literally see junior ones, little kids doing it from street cars and classes ranging all the way up. and then I then do the top one, top fuel. Anyone who's seen Greece will know, because there's a very famous, the drag race at the end, and I actually started a drag race in Moscow, but very different to you.

They were sort of street cars. You're at the top end, and is fuel something to do with the different category? Yeah, so therefore, sorry, so we run on nitramethane, so that's obviously very special. That's nothing you can get hold of or run on the streets. So everything with my cars are completely done

for just racing this, distance. All our parts literally last these four seconds. The whole engine have to be taken down every single run, regardless if we literally run, we've got two meters down the track or it's a record-breaking run. Everything's pushed so hard that everything has to be checked and the team has to work so hard. Tear it all down and put it back all together again. And your experience in the car? Like you're just, well, accelerate as soon as like, just take, you're in the car, you're, you're Kitted up? Oh yeah. Since nitrogen methane, it's very explosive and everything, things can happen. They very rarely do, but of course they do. So we have super thick fire suits, shoes, helmets,

so literally everything, your head can't move. You're basically strapped in. You cannot move at all. So you're in there. It's a standing start and the lights come down at a random interval and after that all cars are different. Some start, you know, but we do a standing start which is, and we floor, We absolutely just floor it. And then that's where just off we go. So 300 miles an hour? Yes. And so what does that do to the body?

It is quite intense and it can definitely hurt as well. So at the star, we have about four to five positive Gs, which is basically like fighter pilot things. But it's such a short distance, so it's okay. But the problem is then, like less than four seconds later, we actually need to break again and then we have these parachutes coming out and you then go from all that to negative 5 or 6gs

so that's a massive difference and that really hurts that really takes your breath away to put it mildly to put it mildly absolutely and it takes 3 to 4 seconds you're driving the fastest accelerating vehicles on earth for us it's over in a flash watching what about for you what's it doing to time

oh time is completely different for me I said if you came and asked me after a run, I can literally go through like, this happened, that happened. It was like that and this and that. So time is absolutely warped for sure. And you also get really weird sense of speed as well, even if I go on a 300 miles per hour and let go of the throttle, and for me, rolling through, let's say, 200 miles per hour,

that doesn't feel very quick to me. So everything is just, you're literally in your own little zone and your own bubble and it doesn't compare to anything else. No, I can only imagine what's it like driving a normal car after that? I mean, as I said, a normal car really has no comparison to me. A lot of people always ask me like, oh, are you, you know, are you sitting there revving at the red lights or whatever? That absolutely no, you know. It's a very specific thing.

Yeah. You know, even the vehicles. Everything. It doesn't even look, you know, it doesn't look the same. My steering wheel is not even around steering wheel, you know, like everything and you have to gear up and, you know, everything. So, no, no, it's very, very different. Why drag racing? I mean, my family has a grown up in it.

So I've always, I've grown up at the racetrack. I've always done it all my life. And I think even if you're not racing yourself, it's such a, you know, everyone, once you're in it, it's just everyone's friends, everyone's happy. You always stay a lot for the social bit. But if you actually start racing as well, it's just, I would say, the adrenaline rush is just nothing like it. So you think you get hooked on it pretty, pretty quickly. So how old were you when he start? So I started when I was 10 in this junior dragsters.

And it's basically like a go car. You only had five brake horsepowers. But for me, sitting, you know, it's that close to the ground. It looks exactly like mine. It's just a half-scale version of the car I drive now. But even though I went not very fast, to me, it felt so quickly. I mean, everyone who's been in a go-car know how quick that feels. And this is basically the same.

So it's just once you, but you just, you get this. no adrenaline rush you can, I can never get like ever again. And when people think of motorsports, they typically think of men behind the wheel. So am I right to say that at least four European Championship titles have been won by women? Oh, absolutely. And I think that's actually the last four previous years. So it's super current as well. And it's been women before that.

So that's definitely nothing unusual. And that goes for all around the world. It's like we do the European Championship. it's American Australia so yeah yeah absolutely all over I can only think of a few sports where women compete against men show jumping some sailing events so does competing against men change things I mean I guess maybe someone to say like oh we feel better beating a man or whatever but it's not like that I said just as much it's not a big deal like women doing it we don't see the same the opposite ha ha or you know a bit a man it's just it's completely we all all equal is the driver in the car up against another driver in a car and team. And you just want to beat the other car regardless of who that person is. Which makes perfect sense because you're behind the wheel of a car.

So what difference does it make? But how does this play out in the wider world of motorsports? So since when I started, when I started Toffield when I was 18, which was quite a big deal and had lots of attention, that everything. But at the time, I couldn't really understand why it was such a big deal. Like what was happening? Yeah, I was like, yeah, okay, you know, all good, you know, everything. But obviously, I've got older and now seeing more into other sports and how things is,

and there's more than equal research and everything. Now, and hear how other people, little girls have been treated in other sports, I've never had anything like that. I've, as I said, a grown up at the racetrack, I've never been treated, and wanted to start driving, never been treated badly, never had, you know, anything. You know, when I hear, you know, people, little girls being, you know, bullied and pushed away the track or I never heard anyone even say like oh I lost

to a girl or you know nothing so I think that's something Dragveston can be super proud of and you know you said it was a family affair you started when you were really young and there's a big family atmosphere at your sport and one of your daughters is she racing as well oh yeah absolutely

passed on to the next generation yeah so it is such a super common thing because once you're usually in the sport you are hooked one way or the other so I have my daughter Shacleen She's raised. I had another stepdaughter as well, Lara. So they started junior Drexters and now really gone up to bigger cars. And do you worry about their safety?

I mean, I do, but I also don't. I said it's a super safe sport. I said accidents do happen and of course, you know, bad ones some as well. But I've had two really bad crashes and I just had little bruises, even though you could literally have to throw the cars on the, you know, just trash them completely. That's because of safety. So, yeah. So I would never do it if I thought I was risking my daughter's lives.

And if any of our listeners are thinking they'd like to have a go, what should they do? Oh my God. I think you should just come to an event, come to a racetrack. So there's lots and lots up here in England up at Santa Port. And just go out, these open pits, go and ask anyone. Just go in there, go to a car and team. This is one interested to. And I'm guarantee you that people will have.

help you. It's a very friendly, open atmosphere. So even if you want to start or just come and watch or do a think of you, you will be, people will help you. And what's next for you? So I said, I've done it back to back. So no one's ever done the F8 of fuel three times in a row. So that's definitely something that we're going for. And what's the fastest you've ever been? I've been 320 miles per hour in 1000 feet. She's fast. And thank you so much for taking the time to tell us your story. And you can watch Suzanne's story on BBC Eyeplayer by searching Global Women and it's on the BBC World Service YouTube channel.

Thank you. Thank you. I do fancy a bit. That quite like the sound of it. 84844 is the text number. Now, as you may have heard, just a few times, women's hour turned 80 yesterday and we celebrated with a special programme from Glasgow Women's Library in Scotland where we launched a theme of our birthday year use your voice, among other guests,

with a poet and writer and former maker, Jackie Kaye and social media influencer and campaigner, Fats Timbo, where did they find their confidence to use their voice? What people misunderstand about confidence is that people think you have to wait for it to happen to you. It suddenly comes out of nowhere. No, confidence has to take action. It could be through tiny habits of usually you'd love. look down, but maybe look at people's faces now and then and smile. Or taking that big leap of faith, taking that managerial role or something,

or doing a crazy excursion or something. It takes action to be able to reach some sort of confidence that you want to aspire to get. So one of the things that's changed is once you're actually in the moment of doing something, some of your fears just go because you realize that you must speak up. out and that you almost have a kind of a duty to speak out about things that matter to you. So I remember one time

having been attacked at Sterling University by a bunch of fascists that put up posters with my name on them and they were razor blaze behind the posters so as Nd tried to pull them down and get their hands ripped. I decided to kind of hold a public meeting and I was 17 to speak out

rather than, you know, I was offered police protection and all of these things but I thought that actually speaking out would be better for me and although it was scary it was the thing that I did and I felt you know much better for it and about 250 people came it's like yay Jackie Kay and fat's timbo and if you want to listen back to the program in fall go to BBC Sounds and Woman's Hour episode of the 7th of October now at the peak of her fame juliana glass had a successful career as a christian pop singer a high-profile marriage and a respected place in the evangelical community she was raised in she even sang at president

Trump's first national prayer breakfast. Then she started reading. Well, certain books that opened her eyes and changed her life. She left her church, her marriage, and became the CEO of this is what happens when women read, a global movement supporting 4 million women in 67 countries gaining their autonomy. I'm delighted to say Juliana is here. Welcome. Oh, thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. It's very powerful. But let's hear your story. before we get to where you are right now, I think we should start at the beginning. Give me a sense of your life growing up. Yeah, I would love to. So I was raised in a very deeply fundamental,

conservative Christian family. My dad was my pastor, my mom was my homeschool teacher for many years. And so my understanding of being a woman and being a Christian was that my proximity to God was really in direct correlation to my proximity to a man. So the idea of a woman's subservience was very normal in my family.

It also was the expectation of, myself and my five other siblings for women to be subservient to the men. So I got married very young and lived within this very binary kind of certain way of life and was happy to do so. It was all that I understood. It was ubiquitous to me. So became a Christian pop singer for 11 years. Very successful. Performed, love dressing up. Yes. And he had a level of, you know, had freedom within that. Yeah, for sure. I mean, freedom within the confines of the religion itself. But autonomy, no. An agency, no, because I knew nothing other than what I was being told. And it was a very loving, open upbringing. You were homeschooled. Yes. Read a lot. I read a lot,

yes. But all within, it's almost, you know, indoctrination is kind of like if you were born and then contact lenses were put on your eyes without your consent. That's what it's like to be raised within a fundamentalist Christian environment. So you were married with three children, and it was after the birth of your daughter that you began to question your faith. What happened? Yeah, I have three children,

and really, after having my infants, it was increasingly more difficult for me to imagine myself telling my son that he was born sinful, that he was born separate from God. I couldn't imagine telling my daughters that they would one day need to be, subservient to a man or that their husband would have to be the head of their house. It was incompatible to me with withholding my infant children and recognizing how unbelievably

holy they were and perfect they were. So to be raised with the doctrine of depravity is to believe that you are fundamentally born into sin and that is the need for this savior. And so to pass that belief down to my children was no longer an option for me. we should say at this point that there are some nearly 50 million evangelical Christians in the US. Many women find their faith enriching rather than limiting, just that some choose to live like that. And for them it is an experience that they are happy with. Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, women around the world, individuals around the world find, you know, solace and safety within religion. And everyone is entitled to their own spiritual experience for sure. it is, for me, it's when those beliefs and the systems of religion, when they begin to impede themselves upon the rights and liberties of other people, this is where I draw the line. So your book is called This Is What Happens When Women Read? Yes. What were you reading? And what happens? Oh, man.

Well, I started reading philosophy. I fell in love with philosophy. I read Plato's Allegory of the Cave. And to borrow from Emily Dickinson, it blew the top of my head wide off. So I read philosophy that led into transcendentalism, led into poetry. I was reading roomy poetry. I was getting in trouble for that a lot. And so I very, you know, admittedly began hiding my books because these books were sort of contraband in the world that I was in.

So what happened when your husband found the books? So in my then-husband found my books, it was already very volatile in our marriage had been for a number of years because I was quite, questioning this system that was so perfectly contained for a woman's subordination. And so when a woman is challenging that, it's threatening not just your marriage or not just, you know, your immediate group. It's challenging the entire institution. And so when my husband found these books, he called me up to our bedroom and began mocking one of them through the book on the floor and said, you see, this is what happens when women read. And that was as if the runway of my life lit up.

And the irony that that is what now you're huge global. You're the CEO of this whole program that you set up that is helping support women's study around the world. So you left your marriage, you left the church. What was the reaction? You were this celebrity within your environment, right? You had the picture perfect life for a lot of people. Yeah, it was incredibly violent.

It was not anything that I expected. I had been raised being taught these beautiful ideas of grace and mercy and forgiveness. And then to leave an institution that is so, it exists to contain women for a woman to challenge that was threatening the entire entity. And so they had, I guess, really no other choice rather than to attempt to crush me. back into this confinement. And it was a horrific experience many, many years of my life that was very violent and scary. But a woman's decision to self-actualize to become the agent of her own life, to be autonomous,

to regain that autonomy in every single way, that is the power and that's the courage required. Yeah, very powerful. And you eventually went to the University of Oxford. She studied. And now you're running a program for women around the world to study an MBA. Tell us a bit about that. Yes, that's right.

So the organization is called This is What Happens When Women Read. And we have the profound pleasure of identifying emerging feminist leaders around the world who are either leaving extremist religions as I was or leaving extreme cultures and earning their MBA. And what message would you like finally for women to take away from your story? Oh my goodness, that they are worthy and that they, have the power to create their own lives that you are a thinking, feeling, moving being that deserves to change her mind and that deserves to reclaim her agency in every way. Oh, actually, you know, I would like to pick up actually because we were talking this morning,

we started the program talking about consent. Yes. And I just wondered what your, yeah, what your thoughts around that were because based on your own experience of the world that you were in. I think the world that I was in, it is a breeding ground rape. ripe for rape culture because a woman is taught that it is her it is her responsibility to give to the man so the yes is not the problem it is the actual saying no um is something that i was never taught a woman was never to deny her husband sex in any form um so i it's such an

important conversation it's hugely important and when you did eventually you know find your autonomy and you said it was very difficult and the abuse that you received when you were leaving the church, there must have been a very isolating, lonely time for you. You've made the decision to do it and then, you know, you're really suffering because of the choice you've made. Yes, I was. And that's where books came in for me. I felt so much solace and solidarity with people that have gone before me, women that have gone before me, writers that have gone before me, whose lives can be contained within the, you know, the pages of a book. So that became such a, it was so important for me to be reading,

and I was insatiable at that time, just absorbing into myself women's stories that have gone before. It's a fascinating story, and you can all read it for yourselves. Yes. Yes, because the book is coming out on the 15th of October. That's right. This is what happens when women read. Juliana Glass, thank you so much.

Of course. For taking the time to come and speak to us. 84844 is the text number. I'm going to just read a couple of your messages. One saying, thanks to Woman's Hour about 10 years ago. I remember rehearsing at home with a granddaughter in primary school, a sentence that she could say loud and clearly when a boy at school was annoying her. Stop doing that now.

I don't like it and I don't want you to do it. Juliana's nodding. We rehearsed actually saying it out loud with confidence so she could hear herself say it, problem solved. I'm going to repeat the sentence. Stop doing that now. I don't like it and I don't want you to do it. I think we could all learn a thing or two.

with that sentence, couldn't we? Now, to die or not to die, that is the decision many people, particularly women, face when their hair starts to grey. Well, earlier this week, Olivia Coleman joined the growing ranks of women embracing grey hair and ditching the dye, with Vogue describing her as our silver-haired muse. Well, she's in good company with Sarah Jessica Parker, Andy McDowell, Salma Hayek Pinot, and all rocking variations on pewter. Well, to discuss this further, I'm joined by freelance journalist Kate Spicer. Morning, Kate. Morning.

You actually interviewed Olivia Coleman recently. How did she look? How does her hair look? We'll start there. I sat next to her. We did the interview over dinner. She was such fun. And what she had is

what SJP has as well is that integrated look. So she had a little bit of her kind of original hair colour. There might have been a little bit of dye left in there even. But nowadays, hairdressers are really good at just pulling a few little bits of grey out and you slowly get used to it. And I think that is what Sarah Jessica Parker is doing.

That's what Olivia Colman's doing. That's what a lot of women are doing now. Yeah, they look great. What's fuelling this current embrace of grey hair? I was looking at Paris Fashion Week, admiring all the stunning older women and just, you know, doing the same as everybody else. Just going, oh, great hair, it's bad. Well, I think it's never just one thing.

but I do think that middle-aged women are, they have, a lot of them have a lot of money. And I think if you never, if the luxury brands never speak to women over the age of 24, they're not going to be able to sell them clothes. So I think it's partly that. I also think it looks very cool. I think, you know, if you look at a few years ago,

Celine did the ad with Joan Didion. He was then in her 80s or even 90s. So it just has a much more kind of considered and expanded mind view than just this idea of women as brunettes or blondes. I think it's semaphores, even for brands, I think it semaphors to a degree of intelligence and thoughtfulness and perhaps a moat of feminism. So why do some women continue to worry about letting their hair go grey?

Why does so many fail to escape what one journo referred to as the tyranny of the bottle? Yeah, it is a tyranny. I think that it's, I don't think you go grey. I mean, I went grey over COVID and there were a few different reasons. But I don't think you go grey and then just give up. I mean, you can. And I certainly do have my days when I walk around looking like, you know, the lady who lives in the words.

But I think you have to, you make a choice. You know, how am I? How am I going to age? And for some people losing that, the frame of colour and the semaphore of youth that colour gives, and also the personality that they're attached to, is really, really hard. And for me, I had to learn that it wasn't just a matter of glowing grey. Like, I was blessed. I hate wearing glasses, but I was blessed with having to wear glasses in my 50s

because they add a bit of structure and frame to your face. You have to dye your eyebrows. otherwise your face just recedes. I know I would never say have to. But you lose that framing and that structure and that kind of boldness of colour. So maybe you just add it in different ways or you stick to the bottle.

I remember once I was in the gym changing rooms years ago and I was on the phone to a friend saying, oh, I found a grey hair, I'm going to have to start dye my hair. And this woman turned around and went, darling, wait till your eyebrows and start going grey. Oh my God, yeah, or the other bit. down below. Yeah, exactly.

The moment you find your first grade pubic care is really, it's childbirth. It's so seismic. 844, if you want to share your experiences. We've had a message in from Deborah saying, I've been dying my long voluminous brunette curls since first grays appeared in my mid-20s. Regrowth after breast cancer, chemo hair loss was my let-it-go-grey moments. I feel liberated not having to diet. it, my friends all love it. I'm not quite so convinced, but I am easing into my new identity.

Is it the same for men? Do they dye their hair? I think increasingly men are dyeing their hair, and there's nothing worse than seeing a man with a bad dye job. I mean, I know very, I've encountered very, very, very rich men who should go to good hairdressers with the most appalling. Do you know the sort of man I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah, you can sort of see that it's grey and it's kind of red on top. Yeah. I think what's happened with women, I can't comment confidently about what's happening with men,

but I know men that have hair transplants because they're much more. I think men are less sensitive about the grey, but they're more sensitive about her loss. But I think there's just so many different ways to do grey now. I mean, I gave up because of COVID because I just couldn't. I couldn't be bothered to dye my own hair. And then I looked at the cost of it. And I just thought, this isn't liberating. This amount of money.

I could spend this on something else. But the, yeah, men, do they dye their hair more? I think they're more concerned about hair loss and go off and have their turkey, their sort of turkey transplants. And where, why have a generation of women learned to live in fear of those first grey hairs? I mean, it's, it's the first sign that you're. mortal, isn't it? Yeah, and it's a whole, well, there's a whole industry built around it, isn't there?

But it is about, you know, going back to, you know, kind of very basic feminist principles, is that we're taught to look fecund for as long as possible. And the fertile woman tends to have this, you know, men have this idea of her with big boobs and big lips and, you know, gigantic, lustrous hair and times. and tiny waist, big hips, you know, the kind of 50s pin-up, and we're still idolizing those sort of images of fertility that are driven to make men want to mate with us. But letting go of that is, I think it's more than just social conditioning.

It's also letting go of our more animal conditioning that we need a man around. And this kind of slow shift towards grey, but in a cool way, you know, I mean, 500 years ago, half of us would already be dead before we even had to worry about having grey hair. I'm going to. It's a new concern. How do you age when you feel alive and you want to be alive until you're 100? Yeah. Jessica, great.

I'm just going to name and shame a family wedding. And one of my cousins, who's a similar age to me, turned up and her hair was grey. And my mum and my aunties were so horrified. And they said to her, we are not even. grey yet. How have you gone grey? And she was... The next time I saw she wasn't grey anymore. So, you know, she was basically bullied by

the older women to get the hair die on. Well, my, I wanted... My mum still dies her hair. She's 82. I'm her daughter. Is there anything wrong with that, though? And I stand next to her with grey hair. And she's got blonde hair. I quite like an 82 year old with blonde hair, though.

I quite like the rebellion of that. Why not? Yeah. You know what? She has integrated her grey a little bit more. actually and I think she looks cooler. There's something a bit effortful about having dyed hair at 80. Everybody knows you don't have black hair, babe. Let her go. I'm going to end with a message

from somebody saying my brown hair started showing a grey streak at the side of my forehead when I was 21. The streak over the years has gradually got thicker and white. I've never dyed my hair or hidden it and just embraced this hair that I'd inherited. I'm now 61 and still have brown hair but I'm very white at both sides of the front and even more so with visiting my sons in Australia

and the sun has bleached it. I look a wee bit like a badger. Hairdressers tell me that clients are paying for streaks like mine to be put into their hair. It may make me look older, but I wouldn't change my grey for the world. Absolutely be you. I want to thank all of you for getting in touch

and all our guests as well. Tomorrow, as the debate around the impact of artificial intelligence rumbles on, we'll be looking at how gender biases seen in the workplace might also be replicated in our interactions with AI. Join me tomorrow for more Women's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Technology is changing our lives at a rapid pace.

But how might it be impacting what we value? I'm Ros Atkins and in a new series, I'm exploring how tech is shifting our ideas of worth in friendship, culture, finance and work. I'll look back at technological revolutions of the past as well as looking forward to a world centred around it. AI to test whether what really matters to us is changing. From BBC Radio 4, that's the value crisis with me, Ros Atkins.

Listen now on BBC Sounds. Part of why I blew the whistle was I didn't want to lay in bed in 20 years. Having seen another million people die, I know that I could have done something when I had a chance. This week on the interface, we're talking to Francis Howigan. The Facebook whistleblower who leaked the documents that changed how the world saw social media. And now she is the science. subject of Aaron Sorkin's latest movie, The Social Reckoning. So join me, Thomas Germain.

And me, Jess Maddox, or The Interface. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.