Woman's Hour - Contraception & Covid-19; Caroline Nokes MP; Deborah Feldman; Asma Khan

Episode Date: April 30, 2020

Caroline Nokes was elected chairman of the House of Commons Women and Equalities Select Committee earlier this year. However, her committee had met just once before the lockdown began. She has since launched an inquiry into the unequal impact of Covid 19. Last week, her committee of MPs sat for the first time online. Today is the deadline for anyone wishing to submit written evidence to that inquiry. With one of the world’s leading condom manufacturers temporarily stopping production due to coronavirus lockdowns, there are fears over shortages of contraceptives. Jenni talks to Dr Sarah Jarvis about the availability of contraceptives, how to access them and make sure you stay protected.We’re hearing from women around the world who are making face masks at home for family, friends and, in this case, health workers to wear during the Covid 19 pandemic. Humpheretta is from Liberia; she campaigns for a charity supporting women and girls when she’s not at work in a designer clothes shop. British Indian cook Asma Khan has only ever employed women in her restaurant kitchen since she founded Darjeeling Express in 2015. Forced to close in March, she tells Jenni how she is looking after her staff now, and what she’s been cooking at home during Ramadan.The Netflix series Unorthodox tells the story of a teenager who flees her ultra Orthodox Hasidic Jewish community and an arranged marriage in New York, for a new life in Berlin. The four part drama series is inspired by Deborah Feldman’s 2012 autobiography Unorthodox: The Scandalous Rejection of My Hasidic Roots. Presenter - Jenni Murray Producer – Sarah Crawley Guest – Caroline Nokes MP Guest - Dr Sarah Jarvis Guest – Humpheretta Reid Guest – Asma Khan Guest – Deborah FeldmanAsma's Lockdown recipe - Aloo Bharta - Spicy potato mash Bengal is the land of bhortas – the Bengali pronunciation of the Hindi word ‘bharta’, which means mashed. There are many variations on this dish. Here I am giving the recipe for two of my favourite versions. One is a mix of fresh, raw ingredients while the other requires a bit of cooking. Either way, Aloo Bharta goes perfectly with dal and rice. If you want to make this dish for more than two people, multiply the quantities given below. Serves 2 2 large baking potatoes (approximately 500 g/1 lb 2 oz) For the fresh, raw version 2 tbsp mustard oil, olive oil or argan oil 1⁄2 tsp salt 1 green chilli, finely chopped 1 small shallot or red onion, finely chopped 1 tbsp finely chopped coriander (cilantro) leaves For the cooked version 2 tbsp mustard oil, olive oil or argan oil 1⁄2 tsp salt 1 dried red chilli, broken into small pieces 2 garlic cloves, thinly sliced 1 small shallot or red onion, finely chopped Small handful of coriander (cilantro) leaves, to garnish Cook the potatoes by either baking or boiling them using your preferred method. While the potatoes are still warm but cool enough to handle, remove their skins. In a bowl, mash the potatoes until smooth, using a masher or fork. To make the fresh, raw version, simply add all the other ingredients to the mashed potato and mix. Serve at room temperature. To make the cooked version, in a frying pan (skillet), heat the oil, add all the other ingredients, except the coriander leaves, and fry until brown. Add the warm fried onion mixture to the mashed potatoes and mix. Serve at room temperature with a few fresh coriander leaves scattered over the top. (Recipe originally printed in Asma's Indian Kitchen)

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Thursday the 30th of April. Unorthodox is one of the most watched series on Netflix. This morning we're joined by Deborah Feldman. It was her book about her flight from her Hasidic Jewish community in New York that formed the basis of the television drama. One of the world's leading manufacturers of condoms is ceasing production because of lockdown. How difficult will it be to find contraception?

In our series about women making masks, we talked to Humphretta, who's busily stitching in Liberia, and Asma Khan, whose restaurant Darjeeling Express employed only women, has had to close down. How is she looking after her staff and what's she cooking at home during Ramadan? Caroline Noakes, Conservative MP for Rumsey and Southampton North, was elected chairman of the House of Commons Women and Equality Select Committee earlier this year. They met only once before emergency legislation to deal with the coronavirus pandemic was passed and we all went into lockdown. Well, last week her committee sat for the first time online to hear from the Minister for Women, Liz Truss. And today is the deadline for anyone who

wants to submit written evidence to the inquiry she launched into the unequal impact of COVID-19. She joins us from her constituency. Caroline, what sort of evidence have you had so far on the unequal impact COVID-19 is having on women? We have had a massive range of evidence, people raising concerns about the increase that we've seen in domestic abuse. We've had representatives of charities working with the disabled, talking about the different impacts that disabled people have found accessing personal care at these really challenging times. But we've also had a lot of information about employment prospects, about the economic impact, particularly

on women. And of course, the horrific statistics that we've seen about the way BAME communities are impacted disproportionately by COVID-19. So a huge range. And as I keep emphasising to people, the end of the consultation period, so the opportunity that people have to submit evidence, does fall today. But that's really not the end of the conversation. And I'm very conscious that particularly when you look at the economic impacts, we may be reviewing this many months, perhaps many years from now. On the question of the black, Asian and minority ethnic background stuff, we've read this morning that there may be proposals for the NHS to take them from the front line. What did you make of that? Well, I think it's very worrying that particularly when you looked at the first 10 doctors who died, they were all from Black Asian minority ethnic backgrounds.

And I think it's critical that we do the investigations to find out why. But more importantly, we look at what can be done now to better protect those individuals. And we know that there are very high numbers of BAME employees on the front line. We know that some health trusts have already taken action to make sure that they are not necessarily assigned roles that are not medical roles, but they are put in the less high risk wards. And I think it's really important that the Department of Health and Social Care works hand in glove with Public Health England to find out why this is happening and to make sure that the advice is there for the individual trusts to put in place to protect people.

Now as I said you took evidence from Liz's trust last week. What did she have to say about the priority the government is giving to equality considerations? I think there were some interesting discussions we had with Liz. I was particularly concerned at her reluctance for the equality impact assessment that was done ahead of the emergency legislation we saw at the end of March. She was very reluctant to publish that. Now, I am the first to acknowledge that that work was probably done at great pace, and it may be incomplete, it may need reviewing. But I do think when it comes to transparency, the government should be prepared to share that information with us so that there is a clear picture of what the understanding was of

the equalities impacts at the beginning of the crisis, mid-crisis, and indeed as we move towards the recovery phase, because it is crucial that the voice of women is heard during the recovery, that we understand the needs of the disabled, of people from LGBTQ backgrounds, so that we get a complete picture. And it's not just about looking to see what people thought back in March. I want to know what the government's thinking now. You joked on Twitter that the senior figures who decided it may be months before hairdressers were open were probably men without hair. But to what extent do you share the concerns of the previous Women's Minister, Amber Rudd, who said on this programme that there just weren't enough women in the room making decisions, if there were any at all?

Well, I think Amber made an absolutely excellent point. And it's not just about the forward face of government. So it's not just about having women at press conferences, it's about making sure that women's voices are being heard around the table in the SAGE meetings, in cabinet meetings, and that people are reflecting that this crisis is impacting different people differently. And there is the absolute recognition that women are on the front line of the care, both in the NHS and in the social care sector, that women are bearing the brunt of the burden of both childcare at home and looking after elderly relatives. So it's crucial that women's voices are heard. Now, you know, I made a comment about hairdressers, which was a joke, but the reality is that that sector will play a crucial role in the recovery of the economy. And don't forget the very high proportion of women

that are employed in hairdressing, in the beauty industry, and what will happen to them if they continue in lockdown for, as we were hearing last week, a further six months? The NHS workforce, as we know, is more than three quarters female. How shocked were you to discover so many couldn't get PPE to fit them? It gives the impression that governmentpe generally and the lack of ppe that is designed purchase procured for women in particular as you say it's three quarters of the workforce are women we know that they are physically smaller than men yet many of the face masks are designed upon a standard American, I gather, male face. Well, that's obviously ridiculous, isn't it? When you know that those masks need to be tight fitting,

that women have smaller and finer facial bone structures. And so it's incredibly shocking. But the PPE issue is one that the government looks like they are getting a grip on at last we need at last absolutely at last and we needed that equipment right at the outset which sadly was very badly lacking. What evidence are you hoping to see that the government does have plans to include all women in the economic recovery. You mentioned you were concerned about it, but is there evidence that that message is getting through? Well, I think we've not yet seen the plans for the lifting of lockdown.

We don't know whether it will be a phased release of lockdown and indeed over what sort of time scale. I think it's crucial that the government is transparent about how that is going to happen. And of course, the committee will want to comment and scrutinise on that at the time. But of course, it's vital that all parts of the community are considered, that the voices of BAME people, of women, of the LGBTQ community, of disabled people are all heard. And that's why I think it's important that the government should publish the Equalities Impact Assessment that they have done, but keep reviewing it and keep publishing it. Because we'll want to know, when it comes to letting people out of lockdown, what consideration exactly has been

given to the disabled or to the elderly or to be quite frank to the young you you spoke in in the reading of the domestic abuse bill on tuesday why as a former immigration minister are you particularly concerned about migrant women i think being an immigration minister gives you a phenomenal insight into the challenges and the difficulties of framing an immigration policy that is fair and treats people as individuals and not as numbers. I enjoyed my time in the Home Office. I was there for 18 months and I found it absolutely enlightening. In five minutes in a virtual House of Commons chamber, you don't get time to expand upon what you have seen and heard. I will always remember a meeting that we held in the House of Commons with me, with Vicky Atkins

as the safeguarding minister, Baroness Williams, who was the, I believe, the victims minister at the time with Ed Argoff, who was at the Ministry of Justice and organisations like Southall Black Sisters. And hearing the simple unfairness of if you are here on some classes of visa, you're entitled to support and the domestic violence concessions that the government put in place. And if you're here on different types of visas, you're just not. And the thing that struck me was particularly younger women who might be here on a tier four visa were not entitled to the support. To be quite frank, when somebody is a victim of domestic abuse, they are a victim first and should

not be looked at through the prism of their immigration status. And there are many, many who seek to criticise the Home Office. And I have to say, in the 18 months I spent there, one of our biggest missions was to make it a more human-facing place, to think about people as individuals to try and respond in a more humane manner to some of the challenges and an immigration brief is incredibly difficult but at the same time I very much enjoyed it. One final question how relieved are you in the current crisis that the Prime Minister has said he won't take paternity leave yet but will be changing nappies well i think it's good for all men to have the experience of

changing nappies um i do think that paternity leave is important i'm pleased that the pm will take it uh when he has the opportunity but i think the thing that has struck me in this crisis is the number of contacts I've had from constituents who are new mothers, whose partners are out at work all day, who aren't getting support from health visitors new baby. That comes along with the struggle of having a new baby. And I'm sure the PM will be there to support her as much as he can. And I hope he gets the chance to take that paternity leave and enjoy his new baby. Caroline Noakes, thank you very much. Now, we received an email earlier this week from Sarah, who said, I'm a 43-year-old woman and I've just started my last pill package. I now don't want to bother my GP with this issue, but at the same time, I don't want an unwanted pregnancy just because I'm too British to ask.

Well, at the same time as there were worries about getting access to contraceptives, we learned the Malaysian company that produces one in five of the world's condoms has shut down operations during the pandemic. So what is the position on contraception? Dr. Sarah Jarvis is a GP and clinical director of patient.com. Sarah, what should Sarah do? So she certainly should speak to her GP.

Don't forget that GP surgeries, the doors may be closed, but the practices themselves are very much open. And quite frankly, the last thing we want is somebody to have an unwanted pregnancy and either to proceed with the pregnancy that wasn't planned and maybe they're not entirely happy with, or then to have to come in and request the termination. Now, sexual health clinics, family planning clinics, their doors are also closed but again they are also carrying out video consultations or telephone consultations and if she's taking the combined pill for instance which might mean that she would need to have her blood pressure checked the good news is that you don't need blood tests as a routine for

contraception but it may be that they would offer her an alternative for instance such as the progesterone only pill why are there shortages of contraceptive pills, or is that something that is being resolved now? It actually pretty much has been resolved, and it's not just been pills. For instance, Cyanopress, which was the only self-administered contraceptive injection, there were real problems with that as recently as March, and we've also had problems with several contraceptive injection. There were real problems with that as recently as March. And we've also had problems with several contraceptive pills following on. I know you and I have spoken before, of course, Jenny, about the ongoing issues with supplies of HRT. So a similar issue, I think, caused problems

with the contraceptive pills. But there were problems with Noramin, Noraday, Synphase, several others. But they do seem to have been resolved just in the last month. The problem is that women, of course, were told just before lockdown that they couldn't get their contraceptive pill and they may well now have run out and not realise that they are available. What impact will the shutting down of the Malaysian condom company have? In the UK, we're not huge ones for using condoms. I have to say I'm a great fan of condoms because, of course, unlike other forms of contraception, it protects against sexually transmitted infections. At the moment, women and men are not socialising, perhaps one would hope,

as much as they were, and therefore the risk of sexually transmitted infections may be lower. But there are many people who do rely on condoms even in a regular long-term relationship and for them I do think it's going to be a significant issue because they may well be the sort of people who don't know where they could access other forms of contraception. So where could they access other forms of contraception? So your GP can absolutely sort you out with contraception and you don't need to see them in the vast majority of cases. The Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Health Care has issued very clear guidelines on what can be done.

And in many cases, this will involve giving a bridging form of contraception if you were to need, for instance, a change, an injection, a contraception injection. You mustn't leave those for more than 14 weeks or if you needed a contraceptive pill and they couldn't check up on you in terms of your blood pressure. But it is important to remember that actually they've also issued guidance that a lot of women, for instance, will use copper coils. And there are some of those, such as the T-safe. They're licensed for 10 years. But again, the FSRH has said, actually, you can use those for up to 12 years. There is good evidence they'll be effective. Likewise, the IUS, which is the hormone-releasing coil, so Mirena, Levosert, that's licensed for up to five years. But they're saying, actually, there's good evidence from

studies that it should be OK for up to six years and implants probably up to four years rather than three. So they can't give a 100% guarantee, but they can give a reasonable reassurance. How available is emergency contraception? Emergency contraception should be available from your sexual health clinic, your family planning clinic, or your GP surgery with a telephone call. But interestingly, a lot of pharmacies are also now offering contraception available by phone consultation or telephone consultation or video or by going in. So you may well find that you can get it from your pharmacy. And most pharmacies, of course, are open on patient access.

We've just launched the service, which means that people can have a phone or telephone or video consultation. And there are some other ones going out across the country, too. Dr. Sarah Jarvis, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. Now still to come in today's programme, Deborah Feldman, whose book about her rejection of her Hasidic roots in New York formed the basis of the Netflix series Unorthodox, and also Asma Khan, whose restaurant Darjeeling Express only employed women, but has had to close down. How is she looking after her staff and cooking at home during Ramadan?

The debate continues here about whether or not we should all be wearing face masks when we're out in the shops or on public transport. All over the world, there are women who are spending their time in lockdown making masks for family, friends and, in this case, health workers to wear during the COVID-19 pandemic. Humphretta is from Liberia. She campaigns for a charity supporting women and girls when she's not at work in a designer clothes shop. Maria Margaronis talked to her and asked her to choose a track to which she listens while she sews. I'm Humphrey from Liberia.

I've worked with Liberia Initiative for Empowerment Life. We are working with young women trying to help them get justice. We stand against domestic violence, rape and try to create a gender balance. My dad passed a few years back, but my mom is still alive. I have my sisters, I have brothers, uncles, aunties. I have a large family. Wow, the place is so quiet. Everyone indoors. You hardly see people on the streets right now. I actually work with a designer store in Liberia.

I was also taught to make this reusable sanitary pad. I just followed the same pattern. I decided that in Africa we can make use of what we have especially when disposable mats were out of stock. I'm using this 100% cotton material with an American lining because for us in Liberia we don't have the filter. I searched everywhere and it was difficult for me to get the filter for the mat. Well, I'm using some colors because most of the times when people's attention are being joined to something, they will always want to use it. Strength of a woman.

It takes me like four to five minutes to do one mat. I got a young man that I'm working with. I create the patterns and then I tell write him or instruct him how to carry on the sewing. In making this mat we also got to take caution on the safety of the people that will be using the mat. So I decided for the two of us to sew. I don't want to get a lot of people involved in the production room because the safety of the people comes first in this whole production. I've made a lot of taximax. I feel so happy that I can give back to my people.

I feel so happy. This is what I have passion for. It is very important for everyone to wear masks because you never know when your brain is about to sneeze. I'm Ferreta from Liberia and there'll be more women around the world in their sewing machines over the next few days. Three years ago, Asma Khan opened her award-winning restaurant, Darjeeling Express, in central London. She made a point of only employing women in the kitchen who would cook the kind of food they would make at home. The restaurant had to close in March. So during Ramadan, Asma has responsibility only for cooking at home.

Asma, what was it like to close the doors of the restaurant when it was doing so well? Yes, we were booked till Valentine's next year. And so it was extremely painful, but I also felt a huge sense of relief that none of my team had got ill, that none of my guests had written back to me saying, you know, oh, I've just discovered that I have the virus after eating with us. And I just felt that this was a ticking bomb, that we were sitting in this packed restaurant, you know, so close to people. And I knew that, you know, I couldn't wait for the government to make a decision. I closed before the lockdown.

So the lockdown was declared a week after I closed. So I just realized that I could no longer do it. I couldn't risk my team coming in every day on public transport and serving, and for my front of house, serving people so close up. What's happened to the women you employed in the restaurant? Well, I mean, the thing is that, you know, of course, when we closed on the 17th of March, there was no announcement about the government scheme or furloughing staff or support, I called everybody in and I told them that, you know, I am going to pay for everyone till we open. And this includes, you know, part-time cleaners and people who come in late at night to clean the toilets in the restaurant, who I've never even met in these three years because they come in at such an absurd time.

And I just said, you let all these people know, I am going to look after all of you. Because for me, that was the greatest responsibility. Because these are not just 25 individuals, they're 25 families. How could I sit on my table with my children and eat in peace knowing that these people couldn't do it? But this could go on and on, Asma. How are you going to afford to do that? I was saving money to buy a flat, an investment, and I have this crazy Chinese friend who's this kind of,

you must save, you must save, and she kind of would tell me this all the time. And my mother, you know, if you have an Indian mother, you'll understand immediately this whole idea of a rainy day. You know, you never think a rainy day will ever come. And then it did. And all this money that I'd saved up over the years, I've put back into my business. The best investment for me, because, you know, it's not my greatest asset on my team.

And this is the best way to have spent it. No property, nothing that I could have bought would have given me the value that I have right now, knowing that my team are safe. How are you making the adjustment, though, to being at home? Because I know you were pretty busy when you were running the restaurant. I have to admit, I struggled. I would rather serve 200 people in my restaurant than my two teenage boys. They are never happy. They're eating up everything in the house. And all the options are offered them. Everything is rejected. Like, is there anything else? I was like, you know, I can't believe it. You know, they don't want to eat what I want to cook. So, yeah, two fussy teenagers is a real challenge. And there's very little thank yous.

And, of course, no tip at the end of the service. Yeah, it's been difficult. It's also, I have to say, very humbling because I have not been a full-time mother for the last four years, you know, setting up my business. And I have huge respect for women who are doing this all the time. It is relentless. It is thankless. And, you know, it is so hard, you know, and I have been reminded again of how difficult it is to be at home and just have to look after all the housework. It's tough. I think you need to start asking your boys for tips, you know. Pretty typical, but ungrateful, obviously. What sort of recipes are

you making in the lockdown that they don't particularly like? No, because the thing is that one of them doesn't like, you know, indian food and you know they they want interesting stuff they eat a lot more chinese and italian food and then there's one my older son has just come back from university uh because of the lockdown it's a delight to have him but he's training uh he's a he's boxing and that means that everything that is protein in the house disappears and so it's all of these challenges so you know just trying to make means that everything that is protein in the house disappears. And so it's all of these challenges. So, you know, just trying to make sure that everything is fine and that they're happy. And I'm also, you know, and now that it's Ramadan, it's a bigger challenge because Ramadan for me has always been about, you know, interesting food. What do I yearn for?

What am I, what do I want to cook? All of that is gone because I just cook what I have in the house. And there is a problem getting a lot of stuff. And, you know, I don't want to go to the Asian area. I don't want to shop unnecessarily. I don't want to go out. So I'm pretty much limited, you know, with all the interesting things that I've always associated with Ramadan, I don't have in my house this year. But how different is the way you're celebrating the breaking of the fast in Ramadan from what it was last year when you were doing it in the restaurant? In the restaurant, it was an absolute delight because the thing is,

we used to have people who would fast and they would come in just before the time that they had to break their fast. And then not even look at the menu because I would tell them, I'm not going to let you order. I'll order for you. Do you eat this? Do you eat that? And I would order for them. And everybody in the restaurant, because it is so small, realized that they're the ones who are fasting.

And then like a kind of line of seven people, we were standing there waiting. The moment we, you know, I heard the call to prayer on my phone, we just started running out with food for this table. And what I loved was that people would applaud. So those who were eating their meal, I think they all felt a bit guilty. It was just so beautiful, that moment, that we served the people who had been fasting. And then, of course, we'd give dates to everyone who was halfway through their meal. In some ways, a solidarity, the whole restaurant was eating dates

and these people, of course, were breaking their fast. It was just magical and it's this kind of beautiful moment that I will carry with me forever. What's on the menu tonight for those ungrateful boys of yours? There's fish curry, which they're not impressed by because it's got a lot of bones in it. Too bad, how sad. This is what I really wanted to eat.

So there's fish curry and rice, but then I'm also making roast chicken. So this is what I'm ending up doing. I'm compromising. I'm doing something that they like, something that I like. And I'm so fortunate that in this entire lockdown, I don't have my husband at home. He got locked down somewhere else. So it's like a relief. Anyway, for him, social distance would have been brilliant because he's an academic and not very sociable and would not come out and help a lot in the kitchen. So not having it was no big loss, but it would have been another person with different dietary requirements. Oh, God. Let's have one recipe from you,

which we can put on the website that all of us could cook. Okay. So the thing is that, you know, I've seen one thing that there's a lot of potatoes everywhere. I'm half Bengali. I eat a lot of potatoes. And so the thing is that, you know, the recipe that works is there's two ways of using potatoes, making like a mashed potato, but it's a very traditional Bengali side dish.

So one has got lots of chopped onions and chilies and coriander. The second version is a smoky, but you make it with smoked chilies and garlic and it just lifts up anything. And I'm very, very bad. Two days ago, I ate this inside a toasted sandwich, carb on carb. But then, you know, when you're fasting, you're allowed to do these kinds of crazy things. Yeah. And I think at the moment, everybody's doing carbs on carbs. You know, the number of people who keep ringing me and saying how am I going to lose all this weight afterwards um you're probably not doing that because at least you can fast during the day and just eat at night yeah no but actually the thing is that I think at

this time it's bruising and I think that you need to be kind to yourself everybody has lost something big and you know those that are fortunate not to have lost a member of their family or friends are very lucky. But the sense of loss and, you know, it is hard to cope with. You know, be kind to yourself, you know, feed yourself, feed your soul. And, you know, when I left my restaurant, I was devastated. And I didn't, you know, I left a light on in my restaurant. My hope that I will return. I will return.

And that's important to remember that. Asma Khan, I'm sure you will return. And we will put the details of that recipe on the Woman's Hour website. Thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Now, the most popular drama series on Netflix at the moment is Unorthodox. It tells the story of Esty Shapiro, a teenager who's raised in an ultra-Orthodox Hasidic Sakmar Jewish community in Williamsburg in Brooklyn in New York. She escapes her arranged marriage for a freer life in Berlin. Well, Esty's story is based on a memoir published in 2012. It's called Unorthodox, The Scandalous Rejection of My Hasidic Roots.

And the author is Deborah Feldman. Deborah, good morning. Welcome. Good morning. Thank you for having me. How would you describe the Satmar community in which you were raised? Well, I would describe them in the way that they see themselves as part of the Hasidic movement, which is a mystical Jewish movement that began in Eastern Europe in the 18th century, comparable to Luther's reform in Christianity, where the idea was that you no longer had to talk to God through intermediaries such as rabbis,

but that you as a Jewish person could speak directly to God and it didn't matter where or under what conditions. This movement, however, became sort of radical and more conventional over time at the same time because you had other movements in Europe competing with it, such as Zionism, the Emancipation, the Enlightenment, and so on. And by the time we hit the turn of the century, the 20th century, you had a rabbi, a Hasidic rabbi in the small town of Satmar at the border of Hungary and Romania, who was already preaching to his small group of followers that as a result of increasing assimilation and political emancipation, that Jewish people should expect a punishment from God coming very soon, because we had forgotten our pact to remain in exile until the Messiah would come and redeem us. So Deborah, just to go down to the way people had to behave, how different were the lives of boys and girls, men and women as you were growing up? Well, as I was going to explain, this sect believes that the only way to prevent

another Holocaust from happening again is to take all Jewish rituals and traditions and to interpret them in new and extreme ways. And so obviously you had gender segregation before, but gender segregation has become extremely interpreted in the community. And you have previous rules of modesty that are being reinterpreted. For example, before women had to just cover their hair, within the Satmar community, women have their heads shaved. And that is just one example of how traditions, you know, are interpreted in this is such an extreme way that they become distorted and unrecognizable. So for me as a woman growing up in the Satmar sect, being raised by Holocaust survivors, being raised by a community of survivors, we really believed that we had to follow all these rules the way that the rabbi had laid them out for us in order to save the Jewish people

and to prevent the worst from reoccurring. And there's just this tremendous feeling of responsibility and pressure. And every time something bad would happen, the rabbis would explain to us that the reason bad things were happening in the world is because our stockings were too thin or our skirts were too short. And when you have the coronavirus crisis happening right now, you can see placards hanging in these communities where women are being told because they are immodest, we have to deal with the crisis of the coronavirus. So there was always this direct connection between, you know, our day-to-day lives, things that felt trivial and almost, you know, insignificant. We were being told that as a result, you know, our whole future would be hanging in the balance based on whether we were putting on thick enough stockings.

Now, you were married at 17, as those of us who've seen in the series, a similar sort of age. What was expected of a young wife? Well, certainly it was expected that I get pregnant as soon as possible and that I continue to get pregnant. I had no access to birth control. I was listening to your previous conversation about birth control, and it brought that really home for me. I received birth control only one time in my life before my wedding. And the reason for that was we needed to control my cycle just long enough so that I would be pure on my wedding night to avoid menstruation on the wedding night because the wedding is planned so far in advance that it's just very risky. What if you're menstruating at the same time? So I received birth control once. I took it a month before my wedding, and then I went off it

as soon as I got married, and I wasn't allowed to use it again. I ended up getting access to birth control through my doctor in secret after the birth of my first child because I knew that my chances were slim anyway. I had already thought I wanted to leave and I was planning to leave. And I knew that my chances were slim with one child, but I knew they would go over to absolutely impossible with more than one. In the series, Deborah, we see Esty having terrible difficulties engaging in sex with her husband and another woman comes to offer advice. How true to your life is that part of the series?

Very true. I would say it's the essence of my book and it is the turning point of my life story and I think it is at the heart of the story. It's certainly the first thing I wrote, the first piece of writing that I ever accomplished was writing about this part of my life. I grew up with tremendous bodily repression.

The female body is considered the source of all sin, where I come from. And we grow up only learning to deny it, ignore it, and cover it. And then all of a sudden, right before you get married, you go to these classes, and these marriage teachers tell you, oh, well, your body is also holy, and it's also supposed to be used for something very holy, reproduction. And this is just a tremendous contradiction. And vaginismus, which is the condition that I had, is very common in religious communities all over the world because it is a very natural consequence of repression. If you tell your body your whole life that your body is bad and that your body needs to be repressed or covered up, your body absorbs that message. And it has a psychosomatic

effect on your actual muscle memory. And so it was just impossible for me to go from my body is evil or my body is the source of all evil to suddenly my body is the source of everything holy. And this is why it took me one year to consummate my marriage. And when I did, it was very painful, but I got pregnant immediately. And at what point, Deborah, did you decide you had to make what you describe as a scandalous rejection of your Hasidic roots? Well, I just want to put a disclaimer out there that I didn't choose that title. I think that publisher made a decision when we were putting the book on the market to have that subtitle, partly because at the time, nobody knew anything about this community. And we were essentially worried that people would not know how to react to a book like this,

or to even know if they would be interested. And there was a real concern that the story was too niche to find an audience. And I think my publisher at the time did everything to reach as big an audience as possible. And it did do that. And that is a result of so many things, so much of that has to do with our zeitgeist, and we see that with the series. But the scandalous rejection, which is scandalous probably for different reasons than we would assume, I think there's something in the series that is very similar. You have this moment where Esty realizes she's pregnant, and she realizes that on the one hand, it's everything she wanted. But on the other hand, it's all wrong. And that was the same for

me. But the difference is I couldn't leave the next day. You know, I kind of sat through the pregnancy and thought, oh, my God, how do I get out? It's too late. It's too late. And then I, you know, I gave birth to my son. And in that first hour, when I was lying in the hospital hospital bed, holding him in my arms, I was like, no, I'm going. And it was just something I knew in my body was like this really sudden maternal sense of certainty. And then I spent three years planning that exit, preparing for that exit. I saved money. I made friends. I visited a lawyer. I found an apartment. Like, you know, it was a slow process. And even when I had everything mined up, I was still too afraid to take that last step.

It took a life-threatening car accident for me to realize life is short. You know, I need to, you know, it's now or never. And I left the next morning. And now you're living in Berlin with your son. How much does your faith matter to you now? You know, very little. I would say that my understanding of faith today is not very religious in that sense. I think we can have faith in ourselves. We can have faith in mankind.

You know, you can have faith in the future, but I wouldn't say that I have faith in a God per se. I don't spend much of my life thinking about if there is a God, what is he like? I try to live a life that feels authentic to me and to sort of my own inner values. And, you know, I've given my son all the options. My son is 14 now, and he's been introduced to all sorts of belief systems and value systems. And, you know, I've always communicated to him that he will always be free to choose his own belief system, and I will never force mine onto him, because that is essentially what I was fighting for, not for him to be raised another way, but for him to be raised with choices. What impact would you say that the immense popularity of the series has had on the Satwar community?

Well, I think it is part of a bigger movement. I think you have to understand the context for what's happening. When I left, there were about 40 to 50 people in New York who had left. We knew all of them by name. When I was a child, there were maybe five. Today, you have thousands and thousands of people who are leaving. Experts think it's about 10% of the ultra-Orthodox community worldwide that has left or is on its way out. So something is changing, right? Something is happening. There's much more public attention focused on this community. There's much more pressure for it to reform, both from within and without. And as a result, two things are occurring. The community itself is drawing even more tightly together. They're trying to close off even more from the outside world. They

feel very threatened by this increase in attention and the pressures of modernity and technology. But at the same time, people who before were kind of on the margins of the community who felt sort of comfortable on those margins are now being pushed out. And so you have the community is shrinking, but it's also becoming more radical and more extreme. I was talking to Deborah Feldman. There was lots of love came from you for Asma Khan. Sophie Ward tweeted, what a great, funny, honest human Asma Khan is. And Emily Barnack said, and I really like this one, I'm so impressed by your generosity to your staff, Asma. When my children were small, I forced them to say thank you for a lovely dinner every evening. I didn't mind whether they'd liked it or not. It became a habit and I liked that. I think we'd better reinstate it.

I couldn't agree with you more, Emily. We heard from more women who are making face masks. Lee said, I'm listening to the programme whilst making face masks for my friends and family in Scotland. It's nice to be able to do something to help. Jane added, There are thousands of women making scrubs for the NHS in their homes. I came across it on local Facebook groups and it's quite incredible how much is being done. There's a huge network of almost entirely women making thousands of scrubs, hats and bags. I'm contributing in a very small way, making washable bags for the scrubs to be carried to and from work.

And then as far as access to contraception during the pandemic, Victoria emailed to say, Hi, I've just been listening to Dr Sarah Jarvis talking about contraception. I'm a practice nurse, family planning trained, and with my fellow nurses are having telephone conversations with patients to renew contraception prescriptions. It's not just GPs that can deal with this. And Ruth, who's a health visitor, who's working again on the phone during the crisis, said, Dear Woman's Hour, just to let you know i'm a health

visitor i'm working doing telephone contacts to women they can call us email us use a text service there are lots of online resources please be assured we're providing a service and your guest has made me quite cross now do join jane tomorrow for the the programme when she'll be talking to the baby psychologist Casper Adiman who'll be joining us to talk about the science of why babies laugh. You've sent us some lovely clips which you might have heard earlier in the week and we'd love to know if you remember your baby's first giggle. Was it tickles, peekaboo, funny faces that made them laugh or something completely unexpected? Do get in touch and do join Jane tomorrow, two minutes past 10, if you can. From me, bye-bye.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.