Woman's Hour - Cookery pioneer Claudia Roden, getting a SEN diagnosis, the impact of vaccine hesitancy among care workers

Episode Date: August 31, 2021

It is not an exaggeration to call Claudia Roden a culinary pioneer. For over 50 years she has been collecting recipes from home cooks throughout the MIddle East and Mediterranean. She shares with Emma details of her new “Med” based on remembered dishes that she’s encountered over decades. Care home managers in England say they're terrified of future staff shortages because of the 'no jab, no job' policy, brought in by the government, which says care home workers have to be double vaccinated by the 11th November, or face losing their job. Emma talks to Nicola Richards, director of Palms Row Health Care, who manages two nursing homes about why workers are still not getting their jab an what that’ll mean for the future of the sector.During Listener Week, we spoke to Lauren Gibson. She wanted us to talk about the difficulties of finding out your child has learning disabilities. How do you deal with hearing your child isn’t developing normally? And, what do you do whilst waiting for a full diagnosis? She got some practical advice from Salena Begley, the Scottish Partnership Engagement Manager at Family Fund U . Today she's back to, get advice from another listener Claire Walker, who’s son was diagnosed with Autism in May, because sometimes the best person to hear from is someone who has been through the same experience as youPresenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell PICTURE CREDIT; Jamie Lau/Waitrose & Partners Food

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. From November, it will be compulsory to be double jabbed against COVID to work in care homes in England. Managers are worried about losing staff because of the no jab, no job policy. We're going to hear from one in a moment. But as you'll also hear shortly, the government could extend compulsory vaccination to cover all carers, including those who go into people's homes. The majority of carers are women.

And as with the wider population, there is hesitancy about having the jab. But the nature of what carers do means very different responsibilities. Let me ask you today then, do you think all carers should have to be jabbed? Or do you have concerns about making it mandatory regardless of the job? Or perhaps your concerns are based on the fact that the care sector is already struggling to recruit and retain people. Let us know your take on this, perhaps where you come into this, maybe you are in care, maybe you have a family member in care, maybe you work in this field, or perhaps you have nothing to do with it at all, but simply a view based on work that you've done or views that you hold because of other reasons. Let us know where you come into this. 84844 is

the number you need to text, or you can get in touch with me on social media at BBC Women's Hour, or email us your view, your experiences via the website. Also on today's programme, a woman who changed the way a certain section of British society ate forever. Imagine life before hummus, pit of red falafel and tahini. Culinary pioneer Claudia Roden will be here to discuss her new book, Med. Claudia believes the kitchen is a more intimate place than the living room. She's always researched, if you know her work, home cooking.

What's the best conversation you've had while cooking or preparing food? Let me know on 84844. Who was it with? What were you talking about? Perhaps you were surprised to be having that conversation. And, of course, we will bring you the latest, as we've promised to do so, and we'll keep doing so, of the women in Afghanistan. Our correspondent, Yalda Hakimim will be here with the very latest. But first, care home managers in England do say that they are very worried about future staff shortages because of the government's no jab, no job policy,

which says workers must be double vaccinated by the 11th of November or face losing their job. That means the workforce, which is majority female, need to have that first vaccine appointment booked by the 16th of September in order to meet the deadline. But ongoing hesitancy amongst workers and anger over the mandatory policy are leading many to decline the vaccine. The government's own calculations last month say in a worst case scenario, as many as 68,000 care workers up to 12% of staff could be unvaccinated by the time this policy came into force which could lead to mass firings. Health ministers in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales unlike England have so far declined to bring in any mandatory policy for care home workers to be jabbed. Here to discuss the ongoing

hesitancy amongst workers and the impact it could have on staff numbers is Nicola Richards, Director of Palm Row Healthcare, who manages 200 staff across two nursing homes and a healthcare staffing agency. Good morning, Nicola. Good morning. What is the hesitancy levels you're seeing at the moment? We're seeing a variety, really. As as you've just mentioned I operate care homes and also an agency so we've got approximately over 10% of our staff within the agency not wanting the mandatory vaccines that's causing a real problem for us locally and as I understand it's

a national problem as well so it's a real concern for us across the sector at the moment. Why don't they want it? I think there's a number of reasons, really. I think you alluded there to, you know, there's a higher proportion of females in the industry. I think there are some concerns around fertility. And I think it's because as well, they've been compelled to have the vaccine. It's not across the health care sectors as a whole. It's only applying to social care.

And I think staff have felt let down by the government that they put their own lives at risk during the early part of the pandemic with lack of testing, PPE, no vaccination. And now those very staff are facing, you know, losing their jobs on the back of it because they've been compelled to have it. Is there not an irony there that there was demands and concerns about a lack of PPE, but when offered a jab, some are not taking it? You know, arguably, ultimately, the highest form of protection for both you and the person that you're looking after. And just to say, I must say this at this point, that it has been put out there that there isn't any evidence at the moment of links to fertility issues. So I need to say that, of course, as a public service broadcaster. Yeah, absolutely. I think I think they just feel let down by government. I think the fact that the NHS is not being compelled to have the mandatory vaccine at the moment, I think that is a real issue.

It feels like social care staff have been singled out again. You can't ignore that the sector was the sector was very fragile pre-COVID. And I think that is a real issue. It feels like social care staff have been singled out again. You can't ignore that the sector was very fragile pre-COVID. Staff recruitment, retention has been an issue and we're facing more challenges now than we were back at the beginning of the pandemic. So we can't ignore that social care has been let down sadly again. And as responsible providers, we are all encouraging our staff to have the vaccine, but they have got their own reasons and we have to respect those reasons. They've been fighting this for nearly 18 months.

Staff are tired, they're exhausted, and they just feel let down. And again, I think it's the way it's been handled by government. But they are in the work of caring for people, looking after people, saving lives. In terms of the vaccine, you would think that these are the people that would want it. choices. We can't ignore that. And again, when we look at the healthcare sector as a whole, why is this not being applied to the healthcare sector as a whole? We are losing some staff to the NHS because they don't have to have the jab. We're losing staff because of the pay, the conditions of social care staff. The government need to treat the healthcare sector as a whole, and they're not doing that. But sorry, would that then mean those individuals who don't want to get

jabbed at the moment for a variety of reasons, as you say, and I recognise that's not the majority, that would mean they would go and get it if there was an extension of this across all? It wouldn't mean that if you had issues about the actual jab, would it? Absolutely. And I think you can't, you cannot ignore that the NHS has been treated very differently to social care staff when we're all providing care for vulnerable people so I think the exception of social care again is just telling our staff that we are you know we're second we're second rate to the NHS again and I think you can't ignore that these people have put their lives at risk fighting this pandemic early on last year and we can't ignore that. And we seem to be now obviously saying that social care staff

were the cause of spreading COVID. We've had all sorts of excuses. We cannot ignore that government have failed us. But my question was, if this is extended, that wouldn't necessarily mean that those will go and get the vaccine. You talk about having to respect those people's individual choices. Are you prepared to fire people if they haven't been double jabbed by the deadline? We've got to. We've got no option. And that feels

immoral. As a provider, as an owner, those staff that have worked with us for 15 20 plus years we we were in this with with our staff back at back in last april fighting this pandemic we know what our staff went through so to to be faced with having to fire those staff right now it's it feels immoral how many people are you preparing to fire well as an agency 10 as a healthcare provider, 2% of our staff. It's just... What would you say, I understand what you're saying there, and people, you know, you're right to remind people of what we went through, what they went through,

and the mood in the country at that time as well. Things have changed. It's very good to put people back in that headset, you know, headspace rather. But what would you say to those who are thinking it's immoral for them not to have the jab and go and look after my grandma? I think what we have to think is we have personal choices

and they are looking after staff. We're doing all we can to care for our staff and to keep our residents as safe as possible. We cannot ignore, and I keep saying this, is why does this not apply to the NHS? Why has social care been singled out once again? No, no, but you do keep saying that. You've made that point. And we invited ministers onto the programme this morning. We've been unable to get them. We'll talk about an update from the government side of things in just a moment with our correspondent.

But what about that question? You are a provider. You know, if I go back and look at what happened in terms of your own work, I understand one of your own nursing homes in Sheffield had to close down in the midst of the pandemic because it was so badly hit by coronavirus. I presume you're actually... That wasn't the reason it closed. It was down to financial viability

because social care is sadly underfunded and has been for decades. I provide care for the most vulnerable people who rely on government funding and that is a key factor here, government funding. And when I had to close a home during the pandemic, a 60-bed home, it was the worst experience ever and that goes back to social care funding, which has been sadly underfunded for decades. But in the context, excuse me, of a pandemic, because so many of the providers have struggled even more.

So it was an issue already, but in that context, it was heightened. And that was my point, that a lot of people would presume, perhaps wrongly, you correct me if I am wrong, that you would be in favour of this policy because you wouldn't want to risk any further issues for a sector that has struggled. Absolutely. And you also have to look at the attraction now are having to hand back contracts to the local authority because they cannot provide a safe service due to staffing crisis. So we can't ignore that. So I'm all in favour of mandatory vaccines. I just feel the timing isn't right now. That's the problem here. I think the timing is wrong because we need time to recover from the last 16, 18 months of staff who are exhausted. They have been fighting this for a long time. So I think we can't ignore the timing isn't right now. We have a message to that effect actually from one

of our listeners. Jo's just got in touch. So if real living wage paid, then recruitment and retention issues would be substantially solved in the care sector. NHS staff should also be vaccinated. Absolute respect for care staff. Nicola Richards, Director of Palms Row Healthcare. Thank you for your time. Let's talk, though, more broadly, because it's not just the care home sector that's worried about compulsory vaccinations for their staff. Carolyn Atkinson, our reporter, is here and you can tell us a bit more about home staff, home care staff. Yes, so domiciliary carers, that's people who look after older and disabled people in their own homes. I'm understanding that they are also expecting that they too will be told to have jabs or lose their jobs. I've seen a letter from an organisation called the Care Provider Alliance,

which represents all types of care providers. So care homes, like Nicola represents, but also the home care or domiciliary care providers too. Now, they have written to the Health and Social Care Minister, Helen Waitley, and they're calling for what they call urgent clarification about COVID vaccine programmes for all care staff. And what they're really concerned about is a government consultation, which we understand is expected to be published imminently.

And that will lay out about making vaccination compulsory for the rest of the social care sector. So that means home care staff as well as care home staff, which we've heard obviously is definitely happening. Looking at the messages coming in, a lot of people think that's exactly what should be happening. So what's the problem? Well, the sector would argue that there's going to be a workforce crisis

on top of an existing workforce crisis in the sector. They're already massively understaffed. There's about 112,000 vacancies and counting. So they're very worried it's going to get even worse. They're not against vaccination. They're in fact very strongly for it, but they are against forcing people to be jabbed. And they point out things that like we're only just seven months into the vaccination programme of people having jabs. And so their view is that gentle persuasion is actually the best way. Otherwise, they say this workforce shortage in social care will become absolutely catastrophic. And they want clarification on all of this, because at the moment, the worry is, as as Nicola Richards said people are leaving care home jobs and they're possibly going to other sectors like hospitality

etc but they're also going to home care or the NHS because they think that that is the best way to avoid compulsory vaccination but if it is brought in across the social care sector then people will leave it altogether and the sector will lose all those skills completely. Carolyn, thank you. Well, as I say, we did invite ministers onto the programme, but no one was made available. I can now talk to Dr Jane Townsend, the Chief Executive of the UK Home Care Association

and one of the signatories of this letter that Carolyn mentioned. Good morning. What is your issue with having people mandatory jabbed? Good morning. Well, as Carolyn said, we strongly support vaccination of the home care workforce and we lobbied hard right from the beginning to enable ease of access to vaccination.

So we persuaded government to open up the National Booking Service so home care workers could book easily. And we're really pleased that only seven months in, we've managed to get 81.5% of home care workers having their identified, likely result in a substantial loss of the workforce. And right now we are experiencing challenges which are greater than anyone can ever remember. And we feel it's very important to balance risk here. Vaccination was only ever part of the infection prevention and control measures. We also need PPE and regular testing and other measures too. Recent data from Public Health England, from the Centers for Disease

Control in the United States and across the world, indicate that the Delta variant of COVID-19, the viral load is as high in vaccinated people as it is in unvaccinated people, meaning that it can spread just as easily by vaccinated people. Therefore, the argument that it will help to protect older and disabled people is somewhat diminished. Obviously, vaccination will Sorry, you have to be incredibly careful as you're saying this on the radio, even though you're making your point about workforce. Because aren't you worried your message is going to be hijacked by those who don't want to be vaccinated at all? What we're arguing for strongly is for persuasion rather than compulsion. So in London, for example, the integrated care system has worked really hard to support vaccine hesitant staff in care homes and by

having those conversations one-to-one listening to people's concerns and explaining from a clinical perspective you know with their their respected knowledge as GPs or nurses or pharmacists or other health professionals has really shifted the needle and nine times out of 10 people will go ahead and have the vaccine. Can I ask then how many people right now, you're the chief executive of the UK Home Care Association, how many people are not jabbed going into people's homes to care for them? Well as I said earlier the national data from this morning is that 81.5% of home care workers have received the vaccine. So that means that an average of 20% haven't. And do you know? So if I'm sitting in my home this morning receiving care from a home carer, from someone who comes in regularly, maybe I know them, maybe I don't.

Do I know if they've been jabbed or not? Well, every home care provider knows which of their staff have been vaccinated and which don't. Do I know if they've been jabbed or not? Well, every home care provider knows which of their staff have been vaccinated and which haven't. And some people receiving care have said, I definitely want someone who's been vaccinated and that can be arranged. But as I explained, PPE, the regular testing, all of these things are also very important. Just the vaccine on its own will not guarantee safety. No, I understand that. But right now, I would, if I was a client, I would be able to refuse you or refuse one of my parents receiving care from someone who wasn't jabbed.

You can ask and everybody, that's already happening. And, you know, care providers are doing their absolute best to accommodate that. Can you guarantee it? No, no, because this is a very important point. You're saying you don't want this to go in the way that it's going if the government say it has to be mandatory, because you don't want to lose people from the industry you're talking about. And we've had this conversation on the programme before, how to convince people who are hesitant of the data. And that's an important strategy. But are you going to let people say no to carers who haven't been jabbed? Because that is a very important freedom the other way. Sure. Yeah, that's already happening. But I think we need to understand

the risks or other risks. So there's always a balance here. So in some London boroughs, for example, the vaccine hesitancy is much higher. So we've got, you know, 68 to 70 percent, only 68 to 70 percent of care workers vaccinated. That means if compulsory vaccination is brought in, maybe 30 to 40 percent of the care workforce in some areas will leave. That means that people could be left without being able to get out of bed, without being able to have clean clothes, without having food. I understand that, but I cannot tell you the strength of feeling coming into what you're saying here. I've got a message saying, anyone not prepared to be vaccinated shouldn't be working in care. I do not want my elderly relative given any care by a non-vaccinated person. This is a public health issue. Personal choice doesn't come into it. And I've got a queue of messages behind that saying something very similar indeed. So just to be clear, you can guarantee that you can stop someone coming into your home who hasn't been jabbed to care for you if you're asking for it the other way. You should definitely ask for it. Yes.

No, that's not the same as a guarantee. That's not the same as a guarantee. Well, you know, care providers have got the records. If you ask, they will do their absolute best. And the alternative is that you choose not to have care at all. Well, that's not an alternative, is it? I can't choose not to have care.'s you know we we i can't say enough that we strongly support vaccination we've done everything you can't have it you can't have it both ways you can't say we don't want it mandatory but we can't guarantee that we won't give you

somebody who hasn't been jabbed that's not fair well well i know i know but then the alternative alternative is that people will go without care anyway because the care workforce won't be there. So what we're saying is, can we just work really hard to persuade the remaining people that haven't yet been vaccinated to get a vaccine? Because when we do that one to one, it really works. So we keep people in the care workforce, we keep them in there and be vaccinated. I think, you know, we're going to see some pretty catastrophic results from, you know, 30 to 40% of care workers not being there. So I agree, you know, we have always wanted the care workforce to be vaccinated, but doing it so fast and making it compulsory in this way is going to result in many people

leaving the care sector which will leave people without care so and leave people without jobs of course uh you know in that respect so just just finally i'm sorry our time is up but when do you expect to know whether it's going to be mandatory or not well the fact the consultation has not yet been released it's going to be released imminently because we saw a draft a month ago. That process will go through. But we believe that the government is minded to press ahead. So it will be, I'm guessing, sometime after the care home people. But as soon as the government can make it happen.

We can talk again then, I hope. Dr. Jane Townsend, Chief Executive of the UK Home Care Association. Thank you. We did ask the Department for Health and Social Care if we could talk to the Minister, Helen Waitley, about this. Haven't heard back or a latest statement on that, but we'll keep you updated with that. Many messages coming in on all sides of this in terms of where you have the experience and where you think we should be coming out on this. But you've also been getting in touch about my next guest, because it's not an exaggeration to call her a culinary pioneer. A book of Middle Eastern food published in 1968

changed the way a certain section of British society ate forever. Can you imagine life before hummus, pita bread, falafel, tahini? A lot of you will not be able to, a lot of you will remember it and now be very happy you've got it. I am, of course, talking about Claudia Roden. For over 50 years, she's been collecting recipes from home cooks

throughout the Middle East and Mediterranean. And this week, she has a new cookbook out, Med. Claudia Roden, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for joining us. And I have to say, the very start of this beautiful book, which landed with a thud on my kitchen table, I'm very excited to try and work my way through it. You start talking about your younger child leaving home and taking yourself off on your own to the med. Yes, yes, yes.

I was a single mother and I had been at home all the time for them, always working from home. And yes, when the youngest left, the other two left on the same day to go to America for a year and one stayed. And so I decided I'm not going to stay here alone. I'm going off. And yes, and I chose to go off to the bed. And collecting recipes in a very, well, with that focus on home cooks. Yes, regional foods and home cooks. In those days, there wasn't much regional foods in restaurants.

In most countries, the grand restaurants or good restaurants were cooking French food. And so really, you could only get the real food in people's homes. But that was my interest because I was a home cook myself. And I had started researching from home cooks who were leaving Egypt. And so, yes, that was always my intention. And so at that time, it was only women who cooked at home. And so that was what I was looking for. And that's who you spent your time with. And I love that you've reported to say around the kitchen being a much more intimate space than the living room. Yes, I found that very often. Well, one of the ways of researching is I would ask everybody

that I would meet. I met them on a train or on a bench or in a cafe. I would say, can I ask you a question? I'm a journalist writing about your cuisine. And very often they would say, well, not that often, but often, they would say, why don't you come for lunch? I'm cooking. And so I found that, yes, when we were sitting in the living room at first, we were very, very proper, just talking about just very vague things. And then when you got into the kitchen, it was about, yes, all your problems came out and all your questions about who I was.

Yes. It's been a funny year, 15 or 16 months now. I can't keep track of people not being able to travel not being able to meet new people in the way that they usually have because of the pandemic and you also say of your book it's working on it has kept you happy it might be cold and grey and raining outside but in my kitchen and at my desk in London I'm smiling under that azure skies you channel the mad the smell of garlic sizzling with crushed coriander takes me back to the Egypt of my childhood. How important has it been to go on the travels of our mind,

do you think, this year, also through cooking and other things? Hugely, hugely important. But yes, for me, just looking at a recipe makes me happy because I'm thinking about who I'm going to cook it for because I only really, really spend time cooking for people I love. It's my family or my friends, but also it reminds me who gave me the recipe and that makes me happy as well. Is there one particular recipe from this book that you could share now with us

or the story of it rather that could bring it to life for us? Yeah, I'm just looking at one that I've got here on my thing. I didn't know you were going to ask that. Yes, I'm looking at chickpeas with yogurt and tahini sauce. Now, it was quite an unusual way of getting a recipe. It was somebody in Lebanon, a Palestinian woman married to a Lebanese, who wrote to me to say, you haven't got this recipe in your book, and I'd like to give it to you. And she arrived in London, and she said, can I meet you at Claridge's for tea and I went to Claridge's and

we said what we looked like but we didn't recognize each other so we didn't meet but then she did come to my house and she brought she told me what to get and yes I brought so much. In fact, it was with chicken at that time as well, because now I've put this recipe without the chicken. But yes, so I cooked so much together for the whole day. I got to know this woman and we became friends, big friends, until she died. But she was a lot younger than me. But yes, we cooked so much that I had to go and call all the neighbours that I knew well, saying, do you want to come and eat? We've got all this. Just think of her. And that friendship and those bonds, I think we're going

to get some messages from our listeners perhaps about that and what they've bonded over and the stories that they've shared. I've got to say, because one of the strange quirks of the pandemic and people not coming into the studio as much as I can see into your home, I can see where you are. And talking of bountiful sites, there are so many books behind you, Claudia. I don't think I've ever seen a bookshelf quite like it of all angles. Are they all cookbooks or are they all sorts of things? Yeah. For years, I never, ever let anybody in my study because I was so ashamed of my mess. And now, unfortunately, I'm on Zoom and I can't move my huge desktop computer.

So I'm stuck with everybody seeing my mess. Well, I'm sure it's inspiring mess. It's just it's very striking because, you know, as a writer, you'll also, I'm sure, be a big reader. I'm just minded to ask you as well, for some people, the book of Jewish food will be in coming down off their shelf come next Monday. It's Rosh Hashanah, Jewish New Year. Do you have a particular thing that you'll make or that you have made in the past? Yes, there's quite a few things, but we do have a fish with the head on and we have white things and we have, yes, of course, the challah bread, and it is round on that occasion. And also in Egypt, we used to have black-eyed beans and also pomegranate seeds in the hope that your family will reproduce. And so it's a nudge on your grandchildren, on my grandchildren.

I did not know that. I thought it was about the whole thing of a sweet new year. I'm Jewish myself and I just bought a pomegranate from my table or I ordered one for next week. But I didn't mean to tell anyone who's coming that they should be reproducing, but that's news to me. So thank you for the education, the continued education, Claudia Redden.

Just finally, that introduction of you and it's completely true about you being a pioneer, the way you wrote and continue to write about food. You're in your 80s now. I'm sure you won't mind me saying, I hope you won't mind me saying, do you plan to keep writing and keep going? What's your drive now? Yes, because really, I enjoy cooking. I enjoy people having round. This is why I wrote this book, because I wanted people

round my kitchen table. And I enjoy writing as well. Not the hard bit of writing, but the thinking of what to say and the thinking. But so yeah, I have to carry on. I'm 85. And I'm not stopping. Very good, too. We're very happy to hear that. I'm 85 and I'm not stopping. Very good too. We're very happy to hear that. Claudia Roden, thank you so much for coming to talk to us. The book is called Med and it looks beautiful. I'm really excited to start trying to make some of the things in there and all the best to you. Messages coming in about those bonds that you have made and I'll come to those very shortly because those bonds are important and that intimacy that comes over cooking and in the kitchen in your minds now. So do get in touch and let us know. The number you need in case you need it,

again, to text is 84844 or get in touch with us via our website. But over the weekend, the last of the US and British troops left Afghanistan, leaving the Taliban in charge. The Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab has said that the UK has evacuated more than 17,000 people from Afghanistan, including over 5,000 UK nationals. He also said that the UK would hold the Taliban to its pledge of safe passage for those who want to leave. But what does this all mean for the people and in particular, the women left behind living with a very different social order? Our BBC correspondent Yalda Hakim is here. Yalda, what are you hearing from the women that you speak to in Afghanistan at the moment? You know, Emma, I've been speaking to so many young women, to girls, to mothers, to sisters, and even fathers who are so desperately concerned about the next phase in this country,

what will come next. The last 20 years has been filled with hope, optimism, freedom, opportunity. And of course, there have been dark moments in the US invasion of Afghanistan. But in general, the country has produced some of the brightest and best that we have seen in decades in the country has produced some of the brightest and best that we have seen in decades in the country and so these people who have become judges female MPs journalists activists human rights defenders are now saying is this our country and what does the future hold for us they're terrified and many of them spent day after day after day at the airport. I would be on the phone to them and they would say, am I going to get through?

Am I not going to get through? What do I do now? Some of them have even said to me, if I can't get through the airport, I'm going to have to go into hiding. I'm going to have to go underground. We've been trying to keep in touch with as many as possible. Personally, I've been checking in almost every day with a group of women, prominent women, to make sure that they are OK, those who haven't been able to get out of the country. But in general, they are terrified and feel uncertain about their future. And in terms of their desire to leave, some of the women that you're talking to, what is that?

Because, of course, we have to remember people don't want to leave but feel forced to. Yeah, I call them reluctant refugees, especially those who have been forced to flee this country. Don't forget, Emma, that many of these young women were on Taliban hit lists for the last couple of years. We have lost 700 of the best and brightest over the last year and a half in Afghanistan in targeted killings. And a lot of these people... That's men and women. Men and women. And a lot of these people, men and women, but a lot of these young women I'm speaking to were on hit lists. And I've kept in touch with them. And they say to me, we had the option to go when we knew when those lists emerged on Afghan

social media, we knew we were targets. We kept a low profile, but we continue to do our work. And they had options to get visas to leave the country. They chose not to. And so when I call them reluctant refugees, it's because they've been forced, because they don't see a place for themselves in the country. Now, having said that, 38 million people remain in the country. Many of those are women who have fought for their rights, fought so hard over the last two decades.

And they say, we have to stay, we have to be able to negotiate with the Taliban. I mean, already, we're seeing the segregation of classrooms, co-education is no longer something that is allowed under the Taliban. They've also put out an edict saying that they want music banned. I mean, this is the beginning of getting a sense of what the rule will be like. Are the schools open then? There are schools in Kabul open. I'm still hearing in places like Herat that they've been told, stay home. We don't know what will come next.

They're waiting for their government to be put in place and then an announcement will be made. But it just gives you a sense, Emma, that Taliban are not a homogenous entity, depending on which commander, what his worldview is, and who he's dealing with in terms of tribal elders and leaders, and the negotiations they are having for the area that they control. So, you know, when we talk about the rights of women, it really depends on which Taliban where controlled the country. So in some of the schools, depending on which part of the Taliban you're under at the moment, they are open but segregated. Segregated. And then other parts are not open at all or not open to girls?

Not open at all. So there is no indication. They've publicly said girls can go to school. And in my conversations, I have to say I believe that that will be the case. But the level of education, the kind of curriculum, what that will be, whether it will be mainly religious studies, you know, whether the curriculum will suddenly change. These are the things that, you know, it's not just about going to school. It's retaining the independence of their curriculum. And there's fears about that.

And in terms of work, because there was mixed messages again at the end of last week about women being told to stay at home from their jobs for their own protection. That's right. You heard Zabila Mujahid, one of the spokespeople of the Taliban, say, our sisters can go to work eventually, but we are concerned about the security of our sisters, so they need to remain at home. But I have heard from some TV presenters who have said to me, I've been told your job is no longer available.

I had this was my dream job. I worked for so long to get there. And then in the end, I got told by my boss in the office, it's not safe for you or us for you to come in. So we don't yet know on the working point. Would that be safe to say? It's a mixed picture, but there just seemed to be a different view on whether it was allowed, whether it wasn't allowed or whether women were staying at home because they were worried it wasn't allowed. Is it a mixture of stopping themselves or being stopped? Yes, I think it is a mixture of that. It's the message is stay at home. It's not quite safe yet.

We haven't decided what your place in society will be. And so to them, that's a threat, or they view it as a threat. If I go in and I defy that order that has been given to me in the guise of security, does that mean that I've broken some kind of rule or law? And then do I face some kind of punishment as a result? Because normally a risk of security risk is posed by somebody from outside perhaps the state, but not the state itself. And what is the state? What is the government? What do they want to impose on the people? We just don't know that. Is it going to be a return of the 90s, where we saw public executions and stoning of women who committed or they said committed the crime of adultery or the amputation of hands and feet?

If someone was accused of theft. It's one thing saying, sure, all girls can go to school. But what does that mean for the rest of society and how the country, the city of Kabul will look? And you brought up there marital relations or relationships. What do we know about that in terms of taking wives and how women could be treated or may already be being treated? Well, I spoke to a friend yesterday who runs a company. He said, I have 700 people working for me. 60% of those were women. Our offices were full of women.

What does it mean when they say interaction between men and women cannot be, you know, in the one space that has to be segregated? He even suggested to me that just tell us to wear extra modest clothing, you know, and keep a distance almost before we can sort of come together and work together. But please don't separate us because, you know, that in itself is creating sort of an issue in terms of work in the future. In terms of studying and education, there aren't as many female teachers or people in that environment or lecturers as there are male teachers. So where does that leave women if they can't have a male

teacher or lecturer, and there aren't enough female teachers or lecturers to go around? So there are so many concerns. And in terms of how many wives someone can take, you know, the kind of brutality that women are likely to face. Again, we just don't know. Just finally, you mentioned that negotiating or working with the Taliban. Do you think women will be able to do that? I know you've spoken to spokespeople, men from the Taliban as a reporter, again, not something people were necessarily expecting. But is that possible if women are not recognised in the same way? They have said to me, what was the point of fighting for and defending our rights as women when the US-led invasion happened in 2001?

Every day for the last 20 years, we have fought for our basic human rights, for women's rights. These are the values that we believe in. We believe in basic freedoms and the opportunities that we've gained over the last 20 years. So what is the point if I now in the face of death and uncertainty cannot face it? And my response has been, is your courage enough? Is it enough to be brave? Is it enough to have courage? And there are so many who have fled, but there are so many who have stayed. And there are 38 million people in that country. And I can see it.

A week ago, they didn't want to show their faces or reveal their names on camera. And now they do. And it's because they're saying, if I don't, if my friend doesn't, if my colleague doesn't, then who does? Who takes that initial first step? But then as the Western world leaves the country, and we're seeing that taking place now, does a dark curtain sort of fall over Afghanistan and their courage is not recognised? I'm sure we'll keep talking.

Thank you very much for the latest on that, in particular reference, of course, to what's happening with women under the Taliban. BBC correspondent Yalda Hakim. You were just listening before our conversation actually about, you know, women bonding and stories and the things that can come out over cooking and not just women talking when they're cooking, all sorts of conversations happening in the kitchen. That was because we were speaking to Claudia Roden, the culinary pioneer. She has a new cookbook out focusing on the med. A message that's just come in here saying, regarding kitchen conversations,

I was at the cooker storing a pan, stirring a pan, I think it's meant to say, when our primary school-aged son came in and asked where babies came from. My husband and I had discussed how to answer the question when it arose. The truth, in a way, was that, a truth, excuse me, we wanted to share that was suitable for their age. I took a breath and said that they were made with love between a man and a woman and then took a breath to think of what to say next okay he said and went off to whatever he was doing few i went back to my cooking uh more to be said to that um but the cooking conversations and what's going on in people's kitchens also seems to be a bit of a theme on on that particular point because another one here says i don't know whether this was a bonding experience as such, but my mother chose to explain menstruation

to me while making Christmas puddings. We had a recipe to follow. She was giving instructions. Our eyes and hands were busy and I couldn't flee in embarrassment. There you go. These bonding experiences in the kitchen and many saying how lovely it's been to hear Claudia's voice this morning. And many also still getting in touch about our initial conversation about whether it should be compulsory for all carers not just those in care homes to be jabbed I'll come back to those messages in just a moment but many still coming in but last Wednesday if you were listening then during listener week which was brilliant because we got so many different topics onto the airwaves I spoke to Lauren Gibson.

She wanted to talk, she wrote in, about the difficulties of finding out that your child has learning disabilities. How do you cope after hearing your child isn't developing normally or as they should? And what do you do while waiting for a full diagnosis? We introduced her to Selina Begley, the Scottish Partnership Engagement Manager at Family Fund, the charity, to get some practical advice. If you missed it, listen back on BBC Sounds. But we felt there was more to say. So we decided to get Lauren back onto the programme to chat with Claire Walker, whose son was diagnosed with autism in May. Because sometimes, as we all know, the best

person to hear from is someone who's been through a similar experience as you. So welcome back to you, Lauren. Welcome to you, Claire. I'll come to you in just a moment but lauren just remind us tell us a bit more about your son because we didn't get to go into as much detail as we would like hi um it's nice to be back on thank you we really appreciate it being heard um that's why i wrote in is just having some representation of sen moms out there so i really want to say i hope i do a good job and do justice everyone um but my son um I had concerns when he was about two I raised it at the health visitor check that you have when they're two years old um because he was very quiet didn't engage in the same way as my eldest son um didn't seem to be interested in playing with others I raised it but they said he was meeting what they were looking for and then I kind of thought I'm just maybe being a bit neurotic mom

I'll pop it back of my mind and then lockdown happened he had no child care at all for 10 months and then he went started at preschool which is an absolutely phenomenal preschool and within about five weeks they rang and said we need to have chats um and it needs to be in person and that's when your stomach starts to leap and they came around to the house because it was locked down and stood in the garden and said he's not developing normally and um what it is is he doesn't seek out to play with others he doesn't ask questions um he has gets overwhelmed and has huge tantrums and self-harms harms others harms me um and a big big thing is he has absolutely no concept of keeping himself safe um so i think you're familiar with having children when they're

about 18 months isn't he you know you you know they're gonna fall over or touch something if it's hot but as they grow up you start to you can go to the toilet without taking you with them with you and you can sort of leave them a little bit more in front of the tv where you take the washing or something like that but he doesn't have any concept of safety so where he regularly gets hurt at the minute he's got a black eye for starting school because he just stepped off a trampoline and then the ladder broke his fall with his face um but it was that feeling my friend said he just stepped off he just stepped up and i said yeah that's kind of because he doesn't feel fear yes that's what he

at all that's what he does and yeah so so for you i mean that moment if you thought something and then you had to have that conversation as that and I know you wrote in quite a lot of detail to it to us about this that led to you trying to to find out what was going on yes so I said this to one of your producers um when they said it to me even though I'd had concerns it still felt like a punch and my response was to kind of punch back and say no he's fine it's locked down he's not seen any other children for nine months his brother is very wonderful but very charismatic very confident boy I said oh maybe his brother's talking for him you know it I'm sure it's okay so I said they they said wonderfully they said well you can gather evidence and we'll have a chat about it so I did 65 miniature videos uploaded to Dropbox for them because I wanted to show the wonderful boy that I

see and wanted to show them that but in doing that I really started to look at his behavior and I'm a qualified teacher and I have a master's in teaching and learning so I did could look at it through a different lens and then I did start to see the differences and the differences between peers and how he interacted with others. And then the penny dropped about Christmas time that he wasn't developing normally. Have you had, I want to come to how you feel about that in a moment, but have you had a diagnosis of sorts? No, so we haven't. So this all started in October when they came to the garden so where we're up to now is he's had assessments from paediatricians, assessments from health visitors and the SEN team at the local council have been into his preschool and assessed him

and I filled in lots of documentation so we're on now what's called an ASD pathway where they put all that together and he's due to have a meeting in the next few weeks where they get together and discuss whether there's enough evidence to give a diagnosis um that he's there's nothing wrong with him or that they're going to watch and wait and gather more evidence from the school um so i'm very much like i said on the last time i was on that i felt like oh well i won't tell everyone until i've got a diagnosis but then you realize it's a long time to wait and what do you do in that kind of yeah where people are talking to you and every time people have spoken to me they're like oh

you're doing well because it's less than a year i people keep saying to me well done forget so far so soon i can see i can see and sort of hear claire agreeing and i want to bring you into this claire because your son as i said was diagnosed with autism very recently yes he was diagnosed in May um and that was after two years so um actually exactly the same so his around the time of his two year check um the the I suppose the difference with my son was that he he's non-verbal um and that was always kind of like I couldn't escape that that was you know there was something going on do you know what I mean so I I went to I went to his health visitor more about that than anything else um and I was kind of like yeah so I asked the health visitor

she did his two-year check and that was where it all started and we've only just got the diagnosis so that's two years and our and people to me were saying yep you've done really well because you've got it in two years and you've got it before school and we've got we've now got a diagnosis and we've got um an ehcp which is like an sen statement that's what they used to be called i'm just aware acronyms are being shared here sen and special educational needs for those who who aren't in the know and um and i know you'll both be complete experts now to an extent, although growing in that expertise. But what I think is very striking about what you've both said,

and Claire, perhaps you could comment first, is you're talking about almost a community you seem to have found a little bit saying, or people have said, this is very quick or this is very quick. Have you had to find your people, Claire, on this, do you feel? Yeah, and I think it's really important um to to reach out to people I I am I'm I'm not huge on social media but I joined Instagram to sort of like talk about what was happening with us and just sort of like share like a like a mini blog to sort of talk

about it and I've connected with two or three really important parents that are going through it. And they've been an absolute lifeline. And then I've joined a couple of Facebook groups. And again, absolute, absolute lifeline, really understanding people that you can ask any question you like to. Is there anything you'd say to Lauren at this point where she's up to that you've learned um yeah definitely ask definitely look for the look for the social media um contacts if they're there because again there might not be people in your

local area um talk to me if you want me that's fine I'm here um bond bond made yeah um um ask for help um if you need it. Somebody said to me very early on, I think it's important, like you say, do you talk about it? Like you say, there is this temptation to think I'm not going to say anything until I get a diagnosis. I'm not going to say anything until it's official. And I know I did a lot of kind of,

oh, well, he might have something going on. We're not too sure. And we're having him assessed. And oh, well, he doesn't talk very well, but we're sort of, you know, he did a lot of kind of apologising and that's kind of grown into now saying, oh, well, he has autism. But I certainly talked about it gradually more and more as time went on and got more confident talking about it.

And again, I think that's important. And to come back to you, Lauren, do you feel you've had to find some of those people because the people around you couldn't relate or you didn't know what to say? You've kind of had to separate out a bit. Yeah. Unfortunately, yes. It's like you were saying then you sort of go, oh, well, maybe he'll grow out of it. And when you broach it with friends that you know sort of already i think there's been a mixture of response some people have been phenomenal and some people have sort of they were trying to be helpful but in a way it validates your experience

so when you say oh well he doesn't ask questions at all and they'll say oh i'm sure i'll grow into it or it didn't exist when we were young and we're fine or isn't he a bit young to know and oh well I'm sure my you know it'll be all right it's just there's a lot of those sort of oh I've also had a lot is well he doesn't look autistic so I'm sure he's going to be okay and whilst I know that it's coming from a place of help it feels like no I'm trying to tell you something deeply upsetting that I'm dealing with right now and I've had some amazing friends just make this space for me to say to say how I'm feeling and say things to me like what do you need right now and sorry um yeah it's just it is hard

to put yourself out there because it feels like it's quite a hidden thing and you don't want to admit that your child isn't developing normally. Could I have done something different? Could I have noticed earlier? Should I have pushed it more at a two-year check? There's all that feeling around it. So it's hard to bring it up. But then when I have done, because I'm quite an open person,

it's surprising how many other people are going through these things. Which is why you wanted to do this. Which is why you wanted to have this chat. Which is why I'm here. Also, the email you wrote was incredibly eloquent and really well put. And there were many things in it, you know, not just the limbo of not knowing, but this feeling of people saying awful things, even when they're trying to help.

And then the silence around it and not shame per se, but the feeling that you can't say what you're wanting to say, this sort of secrecy of it. Yes, and the feeling of people saying to me, oh, well, you need to be positive, let's talk about something else. And it's that feeling of I've spent all day pretending to be a children's TV presenter pretty much because I don't want to show my children how sad I am and trying to deal with my eldest who's, there's only a 20 month age gap

and he's noticing the differences and trying to minimise it and trying to manage it. When you do see friends and family, sometimes you just want to go, but it's navigating when that's appropriate, when it's not and finding that group of people. And I said in my email to the producers, when my friend said, what do you need? I said, what I feel like I need is that NCT group support,

those parents that you go through something together and in the middle of the night you can text them and say, my son asked a question today. And they know what that means and they can share that joy with you. Yes, because there must be those moments. And claire perhaps you can also share on this you must have those moments where there are breakthroughs there are wins and you can also celebrate those claire as well as having that space to say how you really feel yeah um i read somewhere that um sen parents know how to celebrate the little wins better than anyone.

And I think that's completely, completely true. As I the other day, only recently, my son kissed me on the mouth for the first time and he's four. And I know like lots of lots of parents that happens when they're like eight months old. But for me, it was just like, oh, my God, he put his arms around my neck and kissed me. And it was like for, you know, for a socially awkward child, that was massive. What did it feel like for you? Literally, I burst, I sort of teared up. I was like, oh my God, look.

I was like, quick, quick, take a photo. He's kissing me. He's actually kissed me. He hasn't done it again since. But yes, and I think, yeah, I think when you've got a child who's a little bit different, those little things become absolutely massive. But there's something really magical in that. And yes, there are hard days.

I'm not going to pretend there aren't. But there are also days when it is just wonderful and fascinating and completely magical. And my son is one of the funniest people I know. Like I laugh out loud at him most days, you know. And you sort of have to, as you say, make those small wins or what would seem as small wins absolutely massive and major because they are.

Lauren, we're getting messages saying thank you for bringing this up and creating this space. You're at a slightly different stage, of course, too, Claire. But how are you feeling now as you go forward with this, Lauren? I'm feeling really positive. I'm nervous he starts school in two days. And all his triggers in one in the classroom setting. I'm very, very nervous about that.

But I'm so pleased I did write him. And it just came from a place of wanting to be heard and wanting to share and just sitting here thinking I can't be the only one feeling like this right now and it what what would I want to do with her six months ago when I was in that grieving period of realizing that the path ahead of us is different and is there anything that it has helped I was gonna say is there anything you want to say now just finally to to anyone who might be in that place I think Claire sort of said before is just talk reach out join the social um I'm not a big person of social media either but joining those groups and reaching out and it's wonderful and you can really make some great connections

and that's for me is game changing there's a message here saying hi emma so pleased you're covering scn children with special educational needs on women's hour it's a constant battle for services for provision for the truth nhs professionals are under so much budgetary pressure from managers and local authorities it's our children who suffer most with lost opportunities for learning and another one who says no name here i am nodding vigorously along with this interview about autism i wish i could reach out and give them a hug because they are describing uh word for word my experiences thank you so much for covering this so thank you to you so much Lauren, for coming back and for emailing in the first place and all the best for school.

Two days time, we'll be thinking of you. And thank you to you, Claire, as well. It's been a pleasure to have you on the programme. Pleasure to have your company today. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10 o'clock. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

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