Woman's Hour - Coughing; Rafia Zakaria; Rosie Jones; Population and climate; Cressida Dick

Episode Date: September 9, 2021

Thanks to Covid, coughing in public has joined the ranks of socially-unacceptable behaviours. Anecdotally there seems to have been a decline in coughing in theatre audiences since Covid came on the scene. This suggests that loud, irritating throat clearances may not have been necessary physical responses to obstructions after all. Emma talks to Dr Kim Dienes from Swansea University about the social side of coughing and tips for suppressing that irritating tickle.Pakistani-American author Rafia Zakaria has written a new book called Against White Feminism. A critique of 'whiteness within feminism' she says feminism has become a brand, not a movement. She wants to 'take it back.' Working on behalf of domestic violence victims as a lawyer and human rights activist for years, she says race is the biggest obstacle to true solidarity among women. Rafia joins Emma to discuss.It is understood that the first female Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Cressida Dick, has been offered two more years in the role. Both the home secretary, Priti Patel, and the London mayor, Sadiq Khan, are said to support plans for her to continue to lead London’s police force. But seven influential people who say they have been subjected to Met Police corruption and incompetence have signed an open letter in the Daily Mail today calling for her removal. Among the signatories were Baroness Doreen Lawrence, Lady Brittan and the former Conservative MP Harvey Proctor, whose home was raided in March 2015 by Operation Midland detectives, in response to false allegations of historic child abuse made by Carl Beech - who is now in prison for 18 years for perverting the course of justice and fraud. Emma asks Harvey why he wants Cressida Dick's resignation.There are 7.9 billion people living on the planet. But why is human population discussed so little when it comes to the climate crisis? That's a question listeners Sue and Martin want answers to, and that Tim Dyson, Emeritus Professor of Population Studies at the London School of Economics is going to help untangle. He talks to Emma about the facts behind global population growth, the trends in family size, and why having fewer children isn't going to help alleviate the immediate pressures of the climate crisis.Edie Eckhart is 11 years old, from Bridlington in Yorkshire and has cerebral palsy. Like a lot of other 11 year olds this September, she’s starting at secondary school. Edie is the main character in a new children’s book, ‘The Amazing Edie Eckhart’ written by comedian Rosie Jones, who tells Emma why she wanted to create a young disabled heroine.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to today's programme. Even if you're not a tennis fan, you can't have helped but notice the headlines about Emma Raducanu, the 18-year-old British tennis star, storming her way into the history books and into the semi-finals of the US Open. As one paper put it, a British star is born in New York. Quite. Go Emma. Now, of course, by some headline writers being called Emma Radacandu. Another set of headlines this morning focus on the potential extension of the contracts of the first woman to run the Metropolitan Police, Dame Cressida Dick. The Daily Mail, under a headline that simply says,

Met Chief must go, has published a blistering letter from a group of seven signatories, including Baroness Doreen Lawrence, the mother of the murdered teenager Stephen, and Lady Diana Britton, the widow of the former Home Secretary Leon Britton, calling for Cressida Dick to go. We'll hear from one of those who sign shortly. Also on today's programme, you have written and we have replied. An expert on population who will explain why you can still have a child even if you are worried about the planet.

And in another example of how and why we should always read your emails, my colleague over at Radio 3 and the BBC Proms host, Petro Cholorni, has been alerted by one of his listeners that an unexpected benefit of the pandemic is that people no longer disturb performances in theatres by coughing unnecessarily. That's right, it's become the equivalent of shouting

fire in the theatre. The cacophony of coughing that so many of you will be aware of, I certainly am, that used to disrupt those beautiful moments of theatre or concerts that you many of you will be aware of, I certainly am, that used to disrupt those beautiful moments of theatre or concerts that you're in, those musical pauses, are just no longer there. I'll be speaking to a behavioural psychologist who's been looking at how our behaviours have changed during the pandemic from coughing to other things, and another expert who will share findings that show apparently women cough more, but men's coughs are more noticeable.

And actually, that well people and most well people can control their coughing. Maybe your ears have pricked up to this. Maybe you live with someone whose sinus you'd rather moved out. Or this has been a bugbear of yours for years. This could be music to your ears, literally, as you can now hear the music in the concert halls you perhaps couldn't hear before, or the actors saying the words at a really key point in the theatre. A lot of you have experiences or views, I'm sure, on that and anything else you hear. As always, you can text me 84844 on Women's Hour or at BBC Women's Hour on social media or

email me through the Women's Hour website. I look forward to hearing those. Now, it is understood that the first female Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Cressida Dick, has been offered two more years in the role. Both the Home Secretary, Priti Patel, and the London Mayor, Sadiq Khan, are said to support plans for her to continue to lead London's police force. But seven influential people who say they've been subjected

to Met Police corruption and incompetence have signed an open letter in the paper today, in the Daily Mail, calling for her removal. Among the signatories was Baroness Doreen Lawrence, who had this to say to the Daily Mail. I don't know if it's the Mayor of London, whoever it is that needs to look and look seriously around Crested Dix. I just think there's been too many mistakes that she has made in her tenure as commissioner. And even going back, there's so many mistakes that's happened. OK, she's a first woman commissioner and that's good for diversity and that's great. But if you're not doing your job properly, then that should make no difference whatsoever.

Well, I'm now joined by the former Conservative MP Harvey Proctor. His home was raided in March 2015 by Operation Midland Detectives in response to false allegations of historic child abuse made by Carl Beach, who is now in prison for 18 years for perverting the course of justice and one count of fraud. Good morning, Harvey. Good morning to you. Thanks for joining us today. Why have you called for Cressida Dick's resignation or for her to go now and not get that extension? over several years, decades in some cases, that there is no real reason why the commissioner, who's failed and failed and failed, should be given an extension. There are bound to be other chief constables outside London who will be prepared to do the job and do it a great deal

better with integrity and without cover-up after cover-up. That's why we think that she should not get an extension. And I personally believe she should have resigned months ago. Let's come to that in just a moment. I should say we've asked for a statement from the Metropolitan Police this morning and a spokesperson has said we are not commenting on speculation. The Home Office has said in a statement to us that the Home Secretary, Priti Patel, works closely with the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and the Mayor of London to protect the public, make our streets safer and reduce crime.

The appointment of the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Service is a formal process which will be confirmed in the proper way. I wanted to ask you if I can, if I can, sorry, just if I can on this, you yourself, because I'll come to that broader point about the, you know, as you've put it in your letter, the culture of incompetence and cover-up. Six years on after being falsely accused yourself, and I know, but I want to remind our listeners, you lost your job and your home. Why are you still fighting this now? I'm not fighting this for myself.

I'm fighting to ensure that what happened to me and others does not in the future happen to anybody else. It could happen to you. It could happen to your listeners unless changes are made at the top of the Metropolitan Police. You received compensation, £500,000 compensation from the Met and a further £400,000, I understand, in legal costs. Did anyone ever lose their job over what happened to you? No. No one has been held personally responsible for the problems that Operation Midland created. With regard to compensation, I should tell you that my lawyers advised me that Operation Midland, notwithstanding the mediation that I received by way of compensation, actually has cost me half a million pounds. Personally, I am down half a million pounds as a result of

Operation Midland. That is not why I'm speaking out today or in the last few years. It is because of the cover-up of complaints that I have made over years about Operation Midland and the fact that the Metropolitan Police will not accept in Operation Midland any individual police officer should be held responsible. Just the reverse, they have been promoted, enriched, ennobled, including the present commissioner who got a damehood. Quite outrageous. What about those who are listening to this, and they will not, of course, be as familiar with your case and other cases of the six other signatories that have put their name to this letter, but for those who do remember this case, they'll be perhaps thinking, wasn't it Bernard Hogan Howe, the police commissioner, when your investigation was active?

Why are you holding Cressida Dick responsible? Oh, I hold Bernard Hogan Howe responsible too, but he's not the present commissioner. He was put at the Met in 2014. Remember, on the 18th of December 2014, before any investigation of Operation Midland took place, Detective Superintendent MacDonald went on television as a press conference and radio and said, Nick, the person you referred to earlier, Carl Beach, the fantasist and accuser, was credible and true. Kressler Dick has been on radio and said, oh, she heard it while she was driving her car. She knew the words that he had uttered were wrong. What did she do about it? Nothing. By not doing anything about it, she has cost the

public purse upwards of 10 million pounds. And she has not accepted responsibility for that or a number of other matters too. In terms of her and the top brass at the Metropolitan Police, have you ever met her? Have you ever spoken to her? Have you had apologies? I received an apology in person from Bernard Hogan Howe. I received an apology from Cresta Dick. But because of the treatment of me, her words and the Metropolitan Police it out from Operation Midland. We've just heard the words of Baroness Doreen Lawrence. We've also, of course, aware of who else has signed this. Just to give our listeners the full list. I mentioned Lady Britain, Alistair Morgan, Paul Gambaccini, Nicholas Bramall, Michael McManus and yourself. And some people will remember various elements of those stories, but it's about for you, as I understand it, but you tell us more,

that you're concerned that the culture isn't changing and isn't correct under her leadership. No. For three years, Cressida Dick was Commissioner of Police at the Metropolitan Police and did nothing to put in place the recommendations of Sir Richard Henriquez, the retired High Court judge, who Sir Bernard Hogan Howard set up as an independent inquiry.

She did nothing until Priti Patel the Home Secretary ordered her Majesties Inspectorate of Constabulary to find out what had happened to the recommendations of Henry Kay's so she did nothing, she sat on her hands because she knew she had personal

responsibility for these matters sorry that's let me say one more thing earlier this morning on BBC's Today programme for these matters. Sorry, that's... Let me say one more thing. Earlier this morning on BBC's Today programme, the Metropolitan Police wheeled out Sir Ian Blair, a failed and discredited former commissioner, says a lot that the Met have to rely on him for support.

All he could come up with was that this in some way, in the media and us, was somehow anti-women. Well, that is so far from the truth. Sir Ian should have been at the meeting last Thursday. He would have got the truth there. And it's nothing to do with the fact that Krista Dick is a woman. Baroness Lawrence and Lady Britain made that abundantly clear. It is because she is the commissioner and she is a failed commissioner. that the government should even be contemplating extending her role as head of the London police for a day, let alone two years.

Well, none of those people... We are glad that we've come back to haunt them. None of those people are here to speak for themselves. And of course, I should say, we have invited and we keep that invitation open for Cressida Dick to come back on to Women's Hour to talk about some of these issues, of the changes when things are looked at and what has gone wrong. And also, I presume, to try and restore some faith if people have lost faith in the police force. Yes, I'll give you an example. I, in 2019, made eight complaints against the Metropolitan Police's action in Operation Midland. The police are judge and jury in their own case.

They ruled out automatically seven and a half of my eight complaints, only allowed half of one complaint to be looked at. More of that anon. It is disgraceful the way the Met protect particularly senior officers in their institution, their organisation. This is not a criticism of the bobbies on the beat who do a fine job in London and elsewhere. It is senior officers who have a culture of cover-up, and that will not be redeemed until the present officeholders in the senior ranks of the Metropolitan Police, who protect one another and others, go. Of course, there'll be other people thinking of the Metropolitan Police, who protect one another and others, go. Of course, there'll be other people thinking of the good things she has done in that position

and things that she's brought to the fore, things like recruitment drive of more women, raising the profile of domestic violence during the pandemic. But putting all of that to one side, what makes you think, Harvey Proctor, what gives you any sort of faith, especially after what you've been through, that the police can put someone in position who can do all you say? Well, the Home Office is saying that. They're saying, better the devil you know. Well, it doesn't say much for the Home Office's thoughts on the calibre of all the other chief constables in the United Kingdom. And can I say that Northumbria police who investigated Carl Beach and were responsible for him being brought to trial for charges of perverting the course of justice within Operation Midland, are a splendid example of an exemplary police force. This is not a criticism of all police.

It is a criticism of certain police officers, particularly in the Met. It is a criticism of the authority and independent control of the police by the IOPC and the IOPC itself's inability to be able to be independently checked. Has Boris Johnson responded to your letter? I realise it's only just gone out. Oh, no. Could I say this, if the Prime Minister happened to be listening? Which I sincerely hope he does.

I'm sure he listens to your programme every morning. But to say this, that at the moment, it is just rumour and speculation that Cressida Dick may be offered a two-year extension. Before that is firmed up, I call on the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary to meet all seven of us to hear our experiences and I defy them then to continue with an extension of her remit. You've made the call. There isn't a response yet.

Hopefully we can talk again and I can talk to some of your fellow signatories because you're quite the group from all walks of life coming together, as I say, with this very striking letter that's gone off to the Prime Minister, to the Home Secretary's attention, I'm sure, as well. Just finally, Harvey Proctor, it is six years on. I mean, how are you in all of this?

I just thought I'd ask. Harvey, are you still there? Yes, I can hear you. Oh, I was just checking. I'm recovering from a grave injustice. Whether I can ever recover fully, I'm not sure, but I will try. It's very emotional for you. I can see and hear. Thank you for joining us today, Harvey Proctor. For the invitation and my possibility to talk to your listeners. I listen to your show quite often. Thank you very much indeed. Harvey Proctor, the former Conservative MP. And you heard those statements from the Home Office and also the Metropolitan Police. Of course, if we have any update as we go through the programme,

I will bring them to you. Now, there are all sorts of behaviours that you may feel are not great in public. Picking your nose, eating noisily with your mouth open, breaking wind in an enclosed space. But there is another on the list for a lot of people, coughing. You may remember this brilliant quote from the theatre critic James Agate, who once noted, long experience has taught me that in England, nobody goes to the theatre unless he or she has bronchitis. You know the drill. It is that perfect moment, everyone's in suspense and the person next to you erupts

in fits of splutters. But no more it seems. Covid seems to have drastically changed our attitudes towards coughing and the amount that we do it. And I was saying that my colleague over on Radio 3 had an email alerting him to this and I'm'm grateful to that emailer, to that listener, maybe it was one of you. And with me now, and I've got many messages on this, which I'll also come to shortly, Dr. Kim Deans, who's a lecturer in clinical and health psychology at Swansea

University, who's been monitoring behaviour trends since early in the pandemic. And also Professor Ron Eccles, the former director of the Common Cold Centre at Cardiff University and an expert on coughing. Kim, I'm going to come to you first. What have you been looking at in terms of our behaviour? Hi, Emma. Thank you so much for having me. We've been speaking to the same group of people since the beginning of the pandemic, talking to them about their views, their behaviors, their experiences. And we've done it a number of times, you know, at the very beginning in March of 2020, at the end of the first lockdown, during the second lockdown, the third lockdown. So we've

really been able to get a picture of that kind of individual experience and how they've been proceeding. And one of the things that they actually brought up very early on as soon as we started emerging from that first lockdown is their feeling that if they coughed if they kind of showed any signs of a cold that it was perceived as a threat by other people so something that before might just be natural to us you know to cough to clear our throat is actually something that is now threatening and there was a lot of view of kind of the others and me, do you know? So like this is, you know, those people coughing and doing something very scary. And this kind of separateness came up a lot. The coughing was now a threat, which is very different, I think, as a perception. And it's something we've heard over and over again

from them over the past year and a half. And was that a surprise to you? I think that initially, it kind of made me sad at the beginning, because this is something that is so natural that is now perceived as threatening and as a kind of result of the global pandemic. I wouldn't say it's naturally necessarily surprising in that people's behaviors and perception of those behaviors change a great deal based on context and based on the situations we find ourselves. And with the novel pandemic, we're learning a whole new set of ways of interacting. We're learning a whole new set of social norms and the perception of something that as simple as a cough is changing. Yes. And I mean, we've had quite a lot of messages about this. Some of them are very funny. Some of them talking about how they feel about this. And I mean, we've had quite a lot of messages about this. Some of them are very funny. Some of them talking about how they feel about this.

And I'll get to those in just a moment. But actually, just to your point, there are people getting in touch who have to cough. So, for instance, Lucy has got in touch. So my daughter has cystic fibrosis, which means she coughs more than the average person. Prior to the pandemic, people coughing wouldn't annoy, but they'd be concern in case of risk of cross infection for my daughter. Now everybody is concerned with people coughing and it's stigmatised, which isn't a good thing. Compassion and concern needs to be more in the forefront of our thoughts, not judgment and fear. This is something we've lived with for 11 years. So our understanding might be slightly more mature than the world experiencing the pandemic for the last three

years. But I actually think we need to be really clear here, don't we, that this is about those who can prevent themselves from coughing. I think there is a clear distinction. And I just wondered what else, if anything, your research had found on this, about people's changing attitudes because of the pandemic. Absolutely. So one thing that happens when people are under threat or when they're extremely kind of stressed is that they start to protect themselves.

Right. We have all sorts of kind of mechanisms that increase to to make us feel safe. And so the interpretation that somebody might make of the action of another is going to be kind of more more threatening than it would be otherwise. We're in the past year. Somebody cough. You might not necessarily think it's due to illness. You might think it's due to asthma, to a pollutant, to all sorts of other things that can trigger coughs. I'm sure Ron will speak more to that. But now you might make that attribution very quickly that it could be due to COVID. And that does lead to stigmatizing. One participant in our study said that she felt like a quote-unquote leper when she coughed out in public.

And quite unfortunately, there are a great number of people you know i'm a clinical psychologist anxious coughing is very prevalent you know it's something that is there for people that are stressed out and anxious and they can't help it people with cystic fibrosis can't help it people with asthma there are all sorts of people that can't suppress for the i was going to say for the purposes of this conversation and we and i feel we've now covered those who can't, right? And we've got more messages to that effect. But there is also the other side of this, of those who can. And Ron, I want to bring you in at this point,

because you've looked at this, and I'm also quite interested in the male and female differences and what you found on that. And if people have just managed to stop coughing, is that because you can, Ron? Certainly, Emma, in that we've done so many experiments at the Common Cold Centre in Cardiff University, where simple instructions stop people coughing for up to 20 minutes. They've got quite severe cough associated with common cold cough starts with a sense of irritation from the airway and we develop an urge to cough and then we have a choice

we can suppress it for a while or we can cough and i can cough now that cough is identical to any sort of cough associated with common cold or asthma or anything else. It's under voluntary control. And you mentioned the theatre. Most people, when there is a bit of suspense in the theatre, a love scene, they will suppress their cough. And then when we have the applause they will all start coughing they've managed to suppress it until the applause rate so cough is under voluntary control i would put a uh an extra on that in that cough associated with drinking water down the wrong way is more of a

reflex that's more of a reflex which you don't have voluntary control over. But cough associated with diseases like cold, cough, and even with cystic fibrosis, you can decide when to cough and how strong you wish to cough. Well, maybe some people would have a different experience with that, certainly that latter point. But in terms of what you're saying, just because people are noticing and we're getting more messages that the coughing has been able to be stopped or stifled in a lot of people, it's a fascinating one. Do you know the differences or what can you tell us about the differences

with women coughing and men coughing? Well, obviously men are bigger. We have bigger lungs. We have a bigger voice box, our larynx, and we make much load of coughs. So a cough from a man is much more discernible in the theatre than a cough from a woman. I mean, they could be operatic, Ron. I mean, the splutters from the back row. I mean, I've never heard some of the performances I've heard. Well, some women are quite large.

So wait, so men are louder, but women do it more? Or tell us about women? Oh, well, if you're looking at chronic cough, chronic cough, which is quite common in the UK, and I pity those that Kim has now stigmatized, because chronic cough is quite a common problem. And it's much, much more common among women, especially women aged over 60. And we don't fully understand why that is. But it is a very big issue. And there are very little treatments for chronic cough at the moment. And yet the theatres are quieter.

So even those perhaps with that maybe aren't doing it. What do we think about that, Ron? Well, I think the theatres are quieter, firstly, because there's not many people in the theatre. That's a fair point. And secondly, I think Kim made a very good point. People are stigmatised. They're frightened of going out with a cough. You know, you don't want to be trapped in a theatre or a cinema and you've got an irritating cough. Because although you will be able to suppress it for quite a while there may come a

point when it becomes almost unbearable and you've got to do something yes there's a message here saying of course we all hate coughing but if i sit totally still for a time i do get a bit mucusy i know all the tricks about how not to cough but some can backfire horribly a slight tickle if you try to control it can become a massive uncontrollable explosion. And we're also getting messages about those of you who have confronted people about the various sounds coming from them. During a very quiet, very poignant moment during an opera, my husband leant over to the man sitting beside him and asked him to sort out his nose whistle. The man had no idea he was whistling i was mortified says lucy let me just come back to you kim and a final word is there anything you could advise about um stopping yourself from doing this

or what else would you like to say on this so this is really interesting you know i don't think i've ever treated somebody specifically for coughing although it has been a symptom people i've talked to with anxiety but there is information on the internet if you want to look at cough suppression from the nhs um in relation to what i was talking about with the chronic cough, it's something you can look up things as simple as sucking on a sweet during a performance helps taking small sips of water. If you can keep a water bottle near you, breathing through your nose, anything, because, you know, the COVID cough is a dry cough, which unfortunately is also the one that you hear, you know, when you're kind of nervous, you don't have that phlegm in your chest. So these little tricks are actually ones that do

work for that dry cough. So there are tricks on there that you can kind of look up and try to kind of keep doing so you don't experience that reaction from other people. Because I know that, you know, our participants have been approached, I have heard of people that have been approached, and obviously you're getting some in there. We are. The news whistle is new. Our listeners are not shy about all aspects of life, I have to tell you, which is why I love hearing from them. I want to share this with you while you're both on the line and with all of our listeners, this brilliant message.

My GP friend said, in 2018, you coughed to mask a fart and in 2021, you fart to mask a cough. And I think we'll leave it there. If you would like to keep those messages coming in, I would very much like to receive them. I think I might need that on a hat. 84844 is the number you need to text to get in touch

or on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Thank you very much to Kim and Ron there with their various expertise to the fore, which I'm sure you will be appreciating. But that's a great line. Now, yesterday we spoke to the writer and campaigner, Julie Bindle, who in her new book

is against a type of feminism that she sees as most benefiting men. Today, I am joined by Rafia Zakaria, a Pakistani-American feminist who in her new book is arguing against the type of feminism that most benefits white women. Working on behalf of domestic violence victims as a lawyer and a human rights activist for years, she sees the issue of race as the biggest obstacle to true solidarity among women and she is calling for a moment of reckoning. Her book is called

Against White Feminism. Rafia, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. How are you? Thank you for being with us. Against White Feminism, it is a very striking title. And you say you've taken a risk in writing this book. Why did you do Well, to be really blunt, I did it because I was quite tired of white women saying all the right things, pretending to be woke and even committed to, quote unquote, intersectional feminism, where they recognize the importance of considering race and gender. But when it comes to their actual lives or actually ceding any space for women of color, it's an absolute no can do. You know, so, you know, for instance,

if, you know, if a group of, say, white and women of color are vying for to be the top person in an organization, and in the book, I say it's a national organization of women, they face tremendous marginalization, personal attacks, and all sorts of harassment, honestly. So I was just honestly tried to, I was done with it. I was done with this pretense that women of colour have to engage in to be sort of accepted into a system that's been created by white women and for white women. And you yourself have a story that, if you like, brought you into becoming not an activist, maybe you're already that yourself, but your situation becoming a single mother and then going to have to live in a shelter and several shelters brought you face to face with, you know,

what some of feminism is all about, the battles women face. That's exactly right. And what I found is that, you know, the white blonde woman who's chairman of the board at, say, some large international NGO and who has no experience of ever fighting a kind of frontline battle, so to speak, against patriarchal structures, is considered an expert on feminism. But most of the women who I was with and I've worked with are represented in the shelter who have managed to accomplish just tremendous feats of survival are not. And so, you know, there's this lip service to the fact that, oh, yeah, you know, we should all be more diverse and we should have this, you know, more women of color, blah, blah. But there aren't any real efforts. When it comes down to the sort of women that are acceptable to patriarchal structures, they are white women. White men are less, you know, are less unlikely to share, more unlikely to share power with women of color

than they are with white women. And, you know, the book goes into the history of that. You know, it's not just the white blonde chair that's the problem. It's this larger structure, right? And for as far as the women themselves are concerned, you know, as a larger structure, right? And as far as the women themselves are concerned, you know, as a larger issue, I'm used to seeing white feminists. And by white feminism, I don't mean just a white woman. I was going to say, what do you mean by that? And also, I'm aware you're talking to us from America as well.

And I don't know if you think of this as globally or, but tell me what you mean by that. Right. By white feminism, by white, you know, a white feminist is a woman who may, you know, talk the talk, say she's committed to civil rights and to the recognition of minorities and the representation of minorities. But when it actually comes to it, actually comes to the uncomfortable and difficult part of ceding space to women of color, or examining her own role, her own complicity in structures that dehumanize and exclude women of color, they just, they're not interested. So, you know, a concrete example, for instance, of that would be a white woman who's chair of the board, and in an abstract sense, you know, confirms all of those, you know, all of those positions of pro-minority, pro-representation, et cetera, et cetera. But when it comes to not standing, you know, not competing against a woman of color who is also running for the board, it's absolutely, it's a self-perception that, you know, essentially prioritizes an individualist careerism rather than the larger feminist project of creating a meaningful sisterhood.

So hang on. So you're saying here, not all white women who are feminists are, for the purposes of your description, white feminists. Because I'm just thinking yesterday, you probably didn't hear this, but Julie Bindle, who I mentioned at the beginning, a British writer and journalist and campaigner here. I'm just minded of the fact that without us actually talking about race per se, she brought up talking about, for instance, the global surrogacy issue and how it's women of colour who are impacted by that disproportionately. She also mentioned how a woman of colour had been treated at the hands of the police in this country. And somebody like Julie, I don't wish to put words in her mouth, has talked a lot about how class is actually the issue for many cases. She's working class and she feels that's actually one of the difficulties here. And what's one of the major boundaries between women?

You know, I won't deny the importance of class, but unlike race, class is not an immutable characteristic. So you can escape class, but, you know, you can't escape being black or being brown. And, you know, as a brown Muslim woman, I'm used to all sorts of stereotypes walking into the room before I do or before I start even speaking. Right. If I wear the hijab, then there's a certain perspective. If I don't wear it, that's a different perspective in terms of like how relatable I am. And that's just unfair because, you know, I mean, I'll give you an example just from right now from the BBC. Just prior to this program, there was a story of a Kurdish woman in Syria that was being broadcast. And the story, I mean, it's great that those stories are being broadcasted. But the fact is, is that those are often the only stories that are

broadcasted. So, you know, you're not going to have many stories of women who say are critiquing white feminism, right? I mean, you asked me about the risk I've taken with writing this book. The risk is, is that, you know, there are a lot of white feminists in power who, you know, would want to sideline the argument of this book, not by any kind of, you know, I mean, nobody is racist anymore in the sort of grab your collar, you're lesser than me because I'm white and you're, you know, and you're not. It doesn't, it doesn't happen that way anymore, right? It happens in, okay, well, this book came across my desk, you know, I'm just not going to review it. I'm just not going to interview her. Or if I do, I'm going to hector her about things she has no control over. And that's the reality that we face.

And so, you know, say you and I are having this conversation, but are we really sort of being upfront with the problem? And the fact that, you know, most white women in power hoard power. They are not willing to share it with women of color. Most white women in power hoard power. They are not willing to share it with women of color. Because you are here now and you do have the platform, what are you proposing as a solution for making this better and also for that solidarity that you want between all women? Well, I mean, there's two crucial things that I talk about in Against White Feminism. One

of them is, you know, we need a retelling of the feminist story, right? As we have it right now, feminism is the story of white and Western women. It starts off with their struggle for the vote, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And it sort of centralizes characters who were racist and often eugenicists as, you know, the, say, quote, unquote, mothers of feminism. And, you know, I give those examples in the book, including women like Simone de Beauvoir, who was instrumental in, you know, arguing for woman this very lean in, individualistic, ruthless, careeristic type of attitude towards their own achievement, they're never going to experience sisterhood. And that in itself is a tragedy. It is a tragedy for white women because I hear them all the time describing their isolation and loneliness. And, you know, that might be, that is in fact something that say a Muslim woman or a black woman or a brown woman might be better able to communicate to them. I don't think the current models for

white feminist success are very much based on this capitalist recipe of, you know, the more glass ceilings I break and the more, you know, more people I can push out of my way. And those are the women that, you know, are given success. They're the women who are at the top of Fortune 500 companies. And so there has to be some accountability, you know, on the part of white women, individually and collectively. And, you know, that's obviously the biggest challenge, is that white women don't want to be accountable. I think there's a lot of truth in there, but also a lot of things for people to talk about and react to.

And, of course, not least the fact, I'm only just thinking of this because our very first story this morning was about a top police officer in this country, but it's also interlinked with the fate of the Home Secretary in this country, one it's also interlinked with the fate of the Home Secretary in this country, one of the most powerful women, who's, I believe, the first woman of colour to hold that post. So there are, of course, also women of colour in very senior powerful positions who followed that exact model that you talk about, breaking the glass ceiling and getting that. They're in those positions because they have sort of signed on to maintain a system that institutionalizes structural inequality between races. Not the first or she's a brown feminist because she is so invested in upholding structures that essentially continue. That's a very good question to put to the Home Secretary.

And we did have her on a couple of weeks ago, but specifically about refugees. But I hope to have her back for a longer interview. And I'll remember that that thought to put to her. So she has the right to respond to it. Rafia Zakaria, thank you very much for coming on. The book is called Against White Feminism. And you've shared some of those ideas that are in there. And I'm sure we'll get some response from you.

And talking of responses, one of the most popular themes of emails off the back of our listener week where you were driving the content was actually about population and how many people are on the planet. We've just been talking about systems and systems of change. We got a message here, an email that came in saying, there seems to me to be only three futures. Wait for catastrophic disaster, reduce population, or find new planets to colonise. Population control is the clear winner. Nobody, especially politicians, will even discuss this.

Well, we're happy to. And another one also came in just to share. I've just listened to the programme. This was off the back of our Extinction Rebellion programme. I was very interested in that. I was appalled that not a single person mentioned the human population. Stopping using fossil fuels and plastic will not save our planet. Contraception might. Well, I can talk now to Tim Dyson, Emeritus Professor of Population Studies at the London School of Economics. It's by no means straightforward. Tim, I'm aware we're speaking in a week that the UK have been, women in the UK have been told they can freeze their eggs for up

to 55 years to preserve their fertility. But I think we'll just start with this. If people are worried about having a baby because of harm it could do to the planet, can they go ahead with having a baby? Well, obviously, it's not down to me. It's an individual decision. I think people in many developed countries' levels of fertility are well below the replacement level. Many women are deciding not to have children. And it may be that this has a bearing on some of their decisions. But I think it would be tragic if it had, if I could put it this way, a large bearing. There are lots of other reasons for having children, and having a modest number, at least,

in a society such as our own, I regard as being, well, something that has many good aspects to it. Not least, the fact that the children grow up and essentially constitute society, and we all depend upon society. So to some extent, at least, we are dependent upon the fertility of others. I was going to say, I recognise it's a personal decision. And we've had messages from people,

in fact, listeners Sophie and Rowan said they'd like to have children, but they're not sure it's responsible. Would giving up on parenthood help the climate crisis? I know it's a personal choice, but how much have you got to bear that in mind if you're concerned about the climate? I wouldn't be concerned about that very much. I'm very concerned about the climate crisis. But the solution to the climate crisis, and by the way, I don't think we're going to solve it, unfortunately, is radical changes in human behavior, not just in the UK, but everywhere. And it's simply not, it's not going to happen. So I think from the point of view of an individual couple, well, I, you know, I've, my wife and I, we've had two sons, and I know you've got a child as well. Well, it has all sorts of personal aspects that are incredibly important.

On the other hand, if we were looking at someone, people who, let's say, have already got two or three children, then I think that they might at least bear it in mind along with other considerations. But it's kind of like, you know, when people are asking, what can I do and what will shift the dial? It doesn't sound like from what you're saying, because we have spent, you know, decent amounts of time and we'll continue to do so, especially ahead of COP26

coming very soon in this country, the climate conference of world leaders. We, you know, we we spent a lot of time on what needs to be done, as you say, those bigger changes. But it doesn't sound like not having a baby is at the top of the list individually to make those changes. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, I agree with you entirely. And of course, populations in some parts of the world, much of Europe and in East Asia are either declining or are about to decline. Japan is a very good case of this, had a population of about 80 million in 1950. By 2010, it peaked at about 128 million. And by mid-century, it'll be down around about 100 million again.

Now, that fact of population decline raises its own challenges, but nevertheless, it's occurring. And one way or another, the Japanese and many other societies eventually will deal with those problems. What would be dangerous is rapid population decline. So governments are often trying, including the Japanese government and governments in Scandinavia, to keep levels of fertility a little bit below two in the sort of figures of 1.7, 1.8. Whereas if you're down at,

I don't know, 1.1, 1.2, you potentially have a catastrophic population decline, which will be very difficult for any society to handle. If fertility rates are going down, why is the population still going up then? Well, okay. For two main reasons. The first is that in significant areas of the world, fertility levels are still high. So in much of Africa, levels of fertility per woman are something like five life births, maybe a little bit above, particularly in Central Africa and parts of West Africa, but substantially lower in Southern Africa. So that's the first reason. The second reason is age structure. The birth rate doesn't just depend upon how many births

women have on average. It also depends upon the numbers of women that are in the reproductive ages. And in much of the world, there is still what we term population momentum, that is increases in the numbers of women coming into the reproductive ages, despite the fact that birth rates are coming down. So the decline in fertility is, if you like, offset by the increases in the numbers of women coming into the reproductive age. You can't stop a population growing instantaneously. It's rather like a lorry, if you like. You put your foot on the brake, but it takes time for it to slow down. And also, if you actually try and broach this,

either globally or within countries, and as some countries have, how many children you are allowed to have, it can be and has been very controversial and also can be very problematic if it's in a global sense it's been labelled racist before. Yeah. Well, population is a difficult subject. It's a very important subject, but it's a difficult subject. So there are only three ways that populations can change in size. Through death.

Death is a difficult subject for all of us through migration. Migration is a very controversial subject. And then in terms of fertility and fertility itself is almost innately or has been anyhow for many people a very difficult subject. Why? Well, amongst other things, it results from sexual behaviour. And that's a subject which many people find very difficult. But it also obviously involves issues of contraception, abortion and other things. So these are terribly important issues. And actually, we did have a very good discussion on that, a debate about that just a few months ago, which people can catch on BBC

Sounds. But Tim Dyson, you've served your role, if I may say, very well in terms of answering some of those questions from our listeners. So thank you for coming on about where we are and where this comes in the list of priorities. And we will come back to this issue. Thank you for joining us, Tim Dyson, Emeritus Professor of Population Studies at the London School of Economics. Let me tell you about an 11-year-old from Bridlington in Yorkshire, Bridlington, if I can get my words out. Edie Eckhart is her name. She has cerebral palsy, which is the name for a group of lifelong conditions that affect movement and coordination. And like a lot of 11-year-olds this September, she's starting secondary school. Edie is the main character in a new children's book, The Amazing

Edie Eckhart, written by the comedian Rosie Jones. Rosie, good morning. Hello, how are you? Very good, and much cheered to hear your voice. Thank you for joining us. Rosie, I know that you wrote this, you have cerebral palsy, because you didn't really find anyone in the pages of a children's book when you were growing up. No, growing up, I taught slowly and I walked slowly,

but I used to read so quickly and I read a book every two days, I loved reading so much. But looking back now, I never read about anybody disabled. disabled characters were never the hero of the story. And over time, that really affected me made me think, am I worthy of telling a story? And I absolutely am, because I'm a bloody legend. So as soon as I could, I wrote Edie Eckhart who like you said is she's 11 she's funny

brilliant stubborn ambitious and she happens to be disabled. And I just wanted to show everyone out there that disabled people absolutely deserve to be the hero of a story. And not just the secondary character or someone that somebody feels sorry for.

I know that's very important to you. I know that she starts school with her best friend and then on the first day they're separated. So it's about Edie trying to work out who she is without her best friend. And that's a big theme everyone can relate to, you know, trying to make new friends, but paving a new way in the world as you navigate it, especially as a young girl. What's been the reaction to the book? Oh, I've been absolutely blown away

because I really hoped that people would enjoy it. And I wrote it with disabled children in mind because I wanted them to feel seen. But in reality, it's been enjoyed by disabled children, able-bodied children, and have read it and said, oh, I really enjoyed stepping back and feeling 11 again. has CP. It's a story of starting school and able-bodied or disabled and feel like everyone can relate to what that is like. Yes, and it's in a lot of people's minds at the moment. Rosie, thank you so much for coming to talk to us. It's really lovely to have you on the programme. Oh, I really enjoyed it.

I've had a lovely time. Thank you so much. Rosie Jones, the book is called The Amazing Edie Eckhart. And she's just started school, as someone in your life may have done as well. And as you say, you don't have to have cerebral palsy or be disabled to relate to that and the story of friendship. But if you are, then you'll have a story that perhaps Rosie had hoped was around when she was growing up that wasn't quite represented. Thank you so much for all of your comments, coughs, questions about whether you can blow your nose

if you're going back into the theatre. I think you can, but just wait for the applause seems to be the theme here. And a lot of you also talking about your confrontations with your fellow man or woman. Thank you for your company. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr Michael Moseley, and in my podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. From eating some dark chocolate. That was really good.

To improve your heart. To playing video games. To enhance your brain power. Oh, dear. I've been slaughtered, haven't I? Or singing your favourite songs to bolster your immune system. So, to benefit your brain and body in ways you might not expect, here's just one thing you can do right now.

Subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.