Woman's Hour - Countdown to COP27, Amy Loughren, Poet Cecilia Knapp

Episode Date: October 10, 2022

With this year’s UN Climate Conference – COP27 – just under a month away, political leaders and activists are preparing to visit Egypt which will host the event this year. Climate activist Farwiza Farhan and Patience Nabukalu join Jessica to talk about the power that women hold when it comes to climate conservation.Amy Loughren is the woman who helped to secure the conviction of notorious serial killer Charles Cullen. Cullen was a nurse who administered lethal doses of medication to patients in multiple hospitals and nursing homes in America throughout his 16-year career. In 2006 he pleaded guilty to 29 murders and is currently serving a life sentence for his crimes. Amy was a critical care nurse who worked the night shift with him at his final place of employment and collaborated with detectives to secure his confession. Her story is now being told in Netflix's new film The Good Nurse, starring Eddie Redmayne as Charles Cullen and Jessica Chastain as Amy. Friday night saw an historic match between England and the USA, it was the fastest-selling England football game – men’s or women’s – at the new Wembley stadium. Another historic moment saw the original Lionesses finally get caps for their first international game in 1972. They weren’t recognised by the FA at the time but thanks to the reserve goalie of the team Sue Whyatt, who text in to Woman’s Hour earlier this year, they were presented with their caps on Friday night. Sue Whyatt joins Jessica. Cecilia Knapp is a poet, playwright and novelist and was the Young People’s Laureate for London 2020-21. She won the Ruth Rendell Award in 2021 which honours the writer who has had the most significant influence on literacy in the UK in the past year. She has also been shortlisted for many poetry awards - including the 2022 Forward prize. She joins Jessica to talk about her debut collection Peach Pig, which candidly explores loss, motherlessness, the complicated relationships women have with their bodies, and grief. Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, climate change continues to make the headlines in the news, both here in the UK and around the world. Only this past weekend, protesters brought traffic to a standstill in central London, aiming to persuade the government to better tackle climate change. This comes ahead of next month's COP27 summit, this year held in Egypt.

And there's been an ongoing global conversation about whether developing countries most affected by rising temperatures have enough say in how best to solve the problem. And we'll be speaking to two activists, one from Indonesia, another from Uganda, about how they are making their voices heard. Also, we'll be speaking to poet Cecilia Knapp about her new collection, which explores the complicated relationship women have with their bodies. Also, Losing Your Mother and Dealing With Grief. It's very candid and Cecilia will be here in the studio and I imagine we'll discuss themes that you will have experienced yourselves at one point or another. So always, if you want to get in touch, please do.

You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website. You can also send us a voice note and a WhatsApp message as well using this number, which you should probably save to your phones, 03700100444. That's 03700100444. Do remember, though, that data charges may apply depending on your provider,

so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. Also on the programme, the Lionesses simply can't stop winning, it seems. England women recently beat the world champions America at Wembley. Before the game, there was a moment of history when the original lionesses, who we have publicised many times on this programme in the last few months, were finally recognised by the FA for a game they played 50 years ago. We'll be speaking to one of those players who has a wild smile on her face this morning. We'll also hear from a woman who went undercover to catch one of

America's most notorious serial killers. Charles Cullen was a nurse who gave lethal doses of medication to patients before he was caught and sentenced to life. His former colleague tells me about her initial friendship with Cullen and how she played a key role in bringing him to justice ahead of the release of a new Netflix film. All of that to come, but first this morning, there have been more protests in Iran around the world this weekend following weeks of dissents over the death of Marsha Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman last month. She'd been taken into custody by morality police in Tehran because of a so-called bad hijab, whereby a few strands of her hair were thought to be showing from her standard head covering. Authorities claimed that she had had a heart

attack from a pre-existing condition. Her family deny this though and state that her head and body were covered in bruises and there were signs of her being beaten. The protesters, mainly young girls, now seem to have a bigger agenda with their rallying cry of women, life, freedom being heard at rallies all over Iran. Let's just listen to one young protester who spoke to BBC World Service and her words have been voiced by an actor. There is so much risk in attending protests. They can arrest you mercilessly and beat you like they did in the most peaceful protests in universities. And we don't know what will happen to us under their custody.

There is no surveillance. They could do whatever they want. There's no control. It's just so much risk. We gamble our lives on this. For example, today an artist put a red colour in the water in some important spots in the city to represent the blood of the dead killed in these weeks. We have to find different ways to protest. And we can't give up on this until our day of victory. And we don't see it as very far away. We know at last that we're going to succeed in this struggle. Well, I'm joined now by the author, Carmen Mohamedy,

who is an Iranian-British author who wrote The Cypress Tree and has been living in the UK since the age of nine. Good morning, Carmen. Good morning, Jessica. Thank you for having me here. So what's your reaction to these recent protests that we've seen from predominantly young women? Oh, you know, it's so, it's, it's extraordinary. We've never seen anything like this. You know, personally, of course, I think like any human watching some of these videos, I can't help but be devastated by them, you know, because these are young girls, young people. It's not just women who are literally putting their bodies physically on the line in order to ask for the simplest, simplest things, the basic human rights of the right to equality,

the right to choose how to dress, how to live. So my response is, I'm devastated, I'm grief-stricken, I'm disgusted. And of course, there's some sense behind all of that of excitement's not the right word but we're watching closely because this is this is very different to the protests that have come before what is it that these young women want these protesters want what what are they protesting for so um the hijab has which is the um iran has sharia law and has had since 1979 after the revolution when the Islamic Republic was implemented. Now, women are required to cover their hair and their bodies in public. They generally wear a loose coat and a headscarf. There can be many interpretations of this.

Sporadically, they restrict these much more. And this is what we've seen happening in the last couple of months. Now, the protest started in protest of the death of Massa Jinnah Amini. She is a Kurdish woman. Jinnah is her Kurdish name. But it can't be registered in Iran because there is widespread, of course, discrimination inside Iran against ethnic Iranian ethnic minorities such as the Kurds, the Baluchis. So what the protesters started off saying, why they burnt their headscarves was in solidarity, was in protest and was by saying we could all be Jinnah. We could all be Mahsa, Jinnah, Mahsa, Amini. This could happen to any of us.

Her bad hijab was not particularly bad, she was quite modestly dressed, she was not from Tehran, she's from Saqqez, which is my paternal homeland, funnily enough, in a small town in the far western province of Kurdistan. So this chant that we hear, women, life, freedom, this was actually a Kurdish freedom slogan for the right of equality, freedom for this ethnic minority we've soon gone from the demand for this freedom to choose the hijab, because this is not anti-Islamic. This is not anti, you know, the hijab per se. This is anti-state repression. And this headscarf has been used, you know, this is a symbol of devotion in Islam, has been used as a tool for state oppression of half of the population of Iran for 43 years now. So the protesters started to show their hair. They were shaving, they were

cutting their hair in protest because they were saying, okay, if our hair is the problem, we'll get rid of it. You know, this was a big sign of dissent. But the chants go on now. This generation, these young people, these protesters are no longer saying we want just to have the hijab laws changed. They're saying we want rid of the Islamic Republic. They're really saying enough, enough abuse, enough. And these recent protests were sparked, as you say, by the death of Massar Amini. But there's actually been quite a rich history of women protesting in Iran, going back all the way to the revolution of 1979. What can you tell us about that? Well, you know what, Jessica, we could go right back to the 1850s if we want to start talking about women protesting against their status in society. But, you know, that's for another day. The Iranian revolution, when it happened in 1979, women were there alongside men. You know, this was not an Islamic revolution to begin with. This was very much students,

activists, socialists, and there were different factions involved. Women were there alongside. One of the charts of that revolution, which is still going on, is there are no human rights without women's rights. Women then were adopting the hijab and the chador as a sign of protest against this rapidly secularized society, Westernized. Now, what then happened is when Ayatollah Khomeini came in in 1979 and he instituted an Islamic republic and and called his government and subsequent governments God's own government. The very first and wanted to introduce mandatory hijab. The very first protest, women's protests, were three weeks after Khomeini came and took power in 1979 and there are pictures you can find all over the internet of women because they were told that they had to women going to work had to wear head scarves because it was now mandatory in a place of work and so the next day women did not go to work they

did a strike and they instead took to the streets and protested so women have been protesting since the very beginning of the Islamic Republic and the the fact that women in Iran, even within this regime, enjoy actually some more rights in the Middle East than a lot of our sisters, let's say, even in places like Saudi, is because of the women's movement, is because women in Iran have been so active to push the boundaries, to keep protecting their rights. You know, before the revolution, Iranian women were protected by the Family Act of the Family Law of 1975, which is the most progressive in the region. You know, equal rights to divorce. Marriage age was 18. Women could hold positions of power all the way to being high court judges. The very first thing that Khomeini's government did on taking power was repeal these laws. So they took women's marriage age from 18 down to nine.

So I think women in Iran have been really clear that at the center of this revolutionary Islamic Republic has been extreme straight oppression of women, their bodies and how they can take public space. And the fact that women actually do have rights in Iran, they've pushed the marriage age up to 13, is testament to the power of the women's movement. And do you feel as though this will bring about lasting change? I think a lot of people felt that the protest might die down, but that it really does show no signs of slowing down. Will this bring about a lasting change? I wish I had the answer to that. I wish I knew, you know, and I wish I could speak to that. I can't, I don't know, we're gonna have to see. All I can tell you is that yes,

it's different to other protests. You know, there have been big uprisings in 2009, in 2017, in 2019. And we've had men come alongside the women, men putting on hijab in solidarity with the women. And this is different because this is not trying to negotiate with the regime. It's not trying to change this from the inside. And this is a real spontaneous grassroots kind of explosion of anger, of fury. So it does feel different. Yes, they're not dying down. We're now in the fourth week. Every day that it goes on, I suppose we start to think that perhaps something more lasting will come out of it. It's very, very hard to look to

the future. You know, the Islamic regime is very entrenched. They're very powerful. And as we see on these videos that come out of Iran, they're really not shy about, you know, just shooting in cold blood into unarmed people, into their protesters. You know, we now have schoolgirls, schoolchildren on the streets joining these protests and these school children are being arrested they're being taken they're being beaten you know the average age of people being arrested right now is 15. So I don't know what change can come out of this but I wish I could tell but it's very hard to think that Iran, the people, the regime can remain the same after this. Yeah, the pictures have been quite worrying, particularly over the weekend. And I'm

sure this is something that we will continue to talk about. Carmen Mohamedy, thank you very much for coming on to the program this morning. Thank you so much for having me. Now fresh from their Euro success in the summer, England's Lionesses had a very big win against the world champions United States on Friday night in a blockbuster match England won it 2-1 and it was the fastest selling England game men's or women's at the new Wembley Stadium. Now if you're a regular listener you may well know about the original Lionesses they were the very first England women's football team who beat Scotland in their opening match back in 1972. The team weren't officially recognised at the time,

so they didn't get their caps. These are the actual caps that are given to a player each time they represent their country. The reserve goalie of that original team, Sue Wyatt, texted Women's Hour at the beginning of the Euros earlier this summer about all of this. Women's Hour made some noise as a result and it got mentioned in Parliament on Friday in Wembley Stadium. Sue and her fellow lionesses were finally honoured with their caps and I'm so glad to have Sue White back on the programme. He's with me this morning. Good morning to you, Sue. How does it feel to finally have your cap? And I can see that you're wearing it as well yes it's wonderful absolutely wonderful I don't think I'll be wearing it down to the shops but it's uh oh it's what an

unbelievable experience thank you Woman's Hour for helping to bring this about it's been absolutely a blast this week I think I have to hold my hands up and say that the FA have gone above and beyond what any of us expected. And we were treated with such respect and humbleness by those lovely lionesses. They have been wonderful. They clapped us onto their training pitch on Tuesday. I mean, how wonderful is that? What great role models those girls are. And rightly so. And what role models you are to them. So tell me about the experience then,

because I was at Wembley for that match and you got to walk around the pitch. You got to, I suppose, get the crowd to appreciate you. They were on their feet with a standing ovation, weren't they? Oh, yes. My children appreciate you. They were on their feet with a standing ovation, weren't they? Oh, yes. My children and my eldest granddaughter were there. And to be there with all my, well, all those mates from that team, and probably for the last time, in fairness,

and did you see us there singing the national anthem on the pitch with the Lionesses and the USA team. Oh, that is priceless. Money cannot buy that, can it? And that crowd, I felt sorry for those who couldn't get there because of the train strike, but that crowd were wonderful too. I mean, what an ovation they gave us. We really couldn't have asked for anything else.

It was a wonderful experience, wasn't it? And who was it that presented the caps to you? How did this all come about? When were they awarded to you? Well, they actually took us down to the dressing room and we thought, why are we going in there? And we went into the England dressing room and there were all our shirts with our names on on each space in the dressing room and Jill Scott and Leah Williamson were there to present our caps to us I mean yes as usual I was in tears you know it was just unbelievable it really was and you've got the cap with you let me have another look at it. It's bright red. Just describe to our listeners what you're holding there.

It looks very regal. Well, it is. I think it's actually proper gold wire, to be quite honest. It's a wonderful, wonderful cap. And it has my number. I was the 17th player to go on the pitch for England. Obviously, it's a legacy number. And obviously, Sue Buckett, who was the very first goalkeeper, she had number one. And then all the players that came,

they had their own numbers that they came on the pitch with. And so mine is number 17. Nobody else can ever have that number. So I'm very, very proud of it. And I'll be taking it down to where my granddaughter plays tonight. She'll be training at Tetherington Juniors. I shall take it down to show them. That's brilliant. Make sure you have that on. It's bright red. It's got lots of gold detailing.

It's got the England Three Lions badges on the front. Your number, number 17 on it as well. It's absolutely fabulous. What we'll do, so the listeners can have a little look at it, is we'll tweet a picture of that a bit later or even during the programme. And not only did you receive your caps, as you said, you went to go and see the Lionesses during a training camp. What was it like to be around them, particularly now that they've,

you know, secured that European Championship and have had such an unbelievable summer of success. Oh, yeah. I mean, when you saw them training there, they were just fabulous. I mean, the speed, the skill. I mean, it's a whole new level, way above how we ever played. I mean, I know they've had all this, the money put in, but they've still got to have that skill to start off with and as I say um as soon as we went on the pitch they were there I was really honored to be with Mary Earps and as my name's Wyatt it was Wyatt and Earps so how brilliant was that yeah and Mary actually sought me out when we stood on the pitch at Wembley she came and stood with me on the pitch at Wembley, she came and stood with me on the pitch at Wembley. I mean, you know,

she remembered me. I mean, that's just fabulous, as I say. As I say, the skills that they use and Serena had a word with us as well. She came and spoke to us. She gave us a lovely message as we were getting our caps. She was on the video. I mean, she had far more to do to get her team ready, but yet she was still there giving us a message saying, thank you to us for starting all this off. So yes, it's been wonderful. Thank you, Women's Hour.

Thank you, FA. It's been brilliant. An actual pleasure. And thank you to you for representing your country so well. And it's so clear to see that the current lionesses and the current manager have such an appreciation for what's gone before them sue it's been great to have you on woman's hour again we have a tweet in from becky who said oh for goodness sakes i'm crying my flipping eyes out at this story how wonderful i think sue what you've done is touched so many of our listeners and they really

can sympathize with what you've been through and are so happy to see you finally get your cap. And also on the subject of women's football, you can now vote for BBC Women's Footballer of the Year 2022. If you head over to the BBC Sport website, you can pick your favourite and the voting closes on Wednesday. Now to a new film dramatising the case of Charles Cullen, one of America's most notorious serial killers. Charles Cullen was a nurse who gave lethal doses of medication to patients in multiple hospitals and nursing homes throughout his 16-year career. In 2006, he pleaded guilty to 29 murders but admitted he could have killed up to 40 people. He simply could not remember the final figure. He is currently serving a life sentence.

Amy Loughran was a critical care nurse who worked the night shift with Cullen at his final workplace and was key to bringing him to justice. His story is now being told in a new Netflix film, The Good Nurse, with Eddie Redmayne playing Charles and Jessica Chastain playing Amy. I spoke to Amy earlier and began by asking how she developed such a close friendship with Charles. We were very trauma bonded from being in the ICU and every single day is life or death. We had a bond that was very deep. We could look across the room and make one little gesture and we knew what the other one was thinking. That's how close we were.

So there was nothing then that raised suspicions about him, but they didn't. My instincts really betrayed me. And I had a lot of guilt about that. And no, I didn't know. Because when you look back at his history of employment, it's full of accusations of mishandling medication, harassment of colleagues, suspicious patient deaths in his care, multiple sackings and suicide attempts as well. None of that came to came to light whilst you were his friend. No. And the interesting part of that is there's a documentary that's also coming out, as well as our beautiful movie, The Good Nurse. In the documentary, it does show this moment where I realized just how performative he was and just how good he was

at pretending to be this caring and loving person. He had perfected it. So it was an act? It was. It actually was. And I fell for it. So when he was fired from the place of work, it was very sudden. What did you know about it at the time? The only thing that I knew is that he had been escorted off the premises by security. That's the only thing that I knew. Someone at work had called me at home to tell me that he had been fired. And I was so angry. I was so upset. And it just sent a wave of fear through all of my colleagues because if he could be fired and he was such a good nurse, we could all be fired. No one thought

he's being fired because he's harming people. We thought someone must have pinned something on him. So your immediate reaction was to try and defend him? Of course. Yes. He was my partner. He was my work husband. He was my favorite team member. And yeah, I was really upset. And then you learn that there's an ongoing internal and criminal investigation. So you're approached by police detectives and they showed you evidence, didn't they, that would convince you that Charles was not the person you thought he was? What did they show you? Danny Baldwin, the lead investigator for the New Jersey prosecution, really took a leap of faith and gave me the Pixis printouts. Those printouts showed his activity within the Pixis. The Pixis is kind of like a cash register. You type in the medication and the patient's name, a drawer pops open and you take the medication. So I saw all of his activities

printed out and there were several very sinister withdrawals on his printout. And there was no possible way that he could have taken out those medications for any other reason except for harming someone. And what did you think about that? How did you react? I had a complete paradigm shift where everything kind of went blank and my world just came down to a pinpoint and I blanked out. I just couldn't believe it. My heart was racing. I don't remember driving home that day. How do you respond when you find out that someone that you care about so deeply is murdering people. And then what did the police ask you to do after that? Behind the scenes, they asked me if I could at least continue my relationship with Charlie, continue the friendship that was already there.

And could I still really make that leap of being afraid of him, knowing what he had done, knowing that he was a monster, and still find a place within myself. I'm not an actress. I'm not a Jessica Justine. And I had to go someplace very, very deep within me to find that caring. And I realized that I only knew my friend. I didn't know the murderer. I didn't know who that was. So I had to just stay disassociated from that. And it was hard. And they asked you to help them, the police? They did. They asked me to help them. And we recorded multiple telephone conversations

until we found out that he actually was hired at yet another institution. Wow. And you were asked to wear a wire and you actually confronted him. What happened? We were in a restaurant and we were just having a regular lunch and drinking a couple of beers. And he showed up with these newspapers. The paparazzi by that time had been kind of following him around because it had gotten out that there was someone that could have been harming patients at our hospital. And so he proudly showed me these newspaper clippings of him and that they had mentioned him by name. He was very proud. And then I did. I confronted him and I told him that I knew I knew that he was harming people. So the detectives then still needed more of your help. They needed a more explicit confession. So how did you convince Charles to confess what he had done?

The detectives had already told him that there was a possibility that I was being implicated. When he wouldn't talk, when they had arrested him, he would not speak and they were going to have to let him go. So I went there and went to the deepest part of me and realized that there was still that performative aspect of him. He still wanted to be my hero. So in order to protect me, he ended up confessing, believing that I was going to have to take responsibility for the things he had done. So our friendship is really what put him behind bars. This time in your life must have been so frightening. What was it that allowed you to go into this place, that allowed you to go undercover and essentially come up against a man who had been knowingly violent to other people? I think we all have a moral compass.

I think that knowing the hospital was trying to bury this and that the hospital was trying so hard to disengage that investigation made me even more determined to protect my patients, knowing that the hospital knew that he was harming people and still allowed him to work there. I was so determined to make sure that I made it right. And I had so much guilt that my patients were being harmed right in front of me. And I wanted so badly to make sure that those victims had a voice and I may be their only hope. Now, of course, the hospital in question aren't here to defend themselves, but we did get in contact with them and they did send us a statement, which I can just summarise here.

And following Cullen's arrest, the hospital advocated for legislative reforms to prevent this type of tragedy from ever occurring again. This led to the passing of legislation in 2005, which requires criminal background checks of healthcare professionals and also requires healthcare entities to notify where disciplinary action is taken or where there are concerns of incompetence or misconduct. What do you make of that? I think that they're as performative as Charles Cullen. It wasn't just the hospital, though, that impacted your moral compass. I believe you spoke to your daughters about the situation as well, didn't you?

Well, I was so sick. And during that time, also, I was directing my daughter's sixth grade play. And when the detectives asked me if I would wear a wire, and I also knew that Charlie was already in the papers, in the newspapers. I knew that there was an opportunity for perhaps me to have my photograph taken with him. And so people would never be able to know that I was working behind the scenes. They would just place me with a serial killer. I didn't want that to affect my daughter, who she really would have her entire life pulled out from under her. We lived in a very small town. And you know how judgmental people can be. And I said, we won't do this unless we can do this as a family. I'm not

going to hurt you. I'll find a way to help without me hurting us. And she said, mom, he's murdering people. Of course, we're going to do this. And she said, I don't care if we have to move. I don't care what people think of you. We need to do this. What impact has this all had on you and your family? Right after, it was very hard. I really did struggle after that with my guilt. And it sent me on this beautiful, transformative spiritual quest to find out why I didn't know that there was a monster right next to me, right in front of me, why I didn't see him. And that spiritual quest led me to such a beautiful answer. And that is the fact that I can only see the light in people.

I can see past people's darkness. And to me, that was the most beautiful thing of all of this is that it was okay that I saw that small spark of light within him, because that is eventually what put him behind bars. There's been quite a few films, TV shows in recent years that have been made about serial killers. There's one about Jeffrey Dahmer, which is currently number one on Netflix. I just saw that. Yeah. And it's led some people to believe that we glamorize serial killers. What do you think of that? Would you agree with that? I do. And I also only wanted to be associated with this project if we weren't going to glamorize Charles Cullen, that we were going to shed a light on these victims. Because unfortunately,

the way that Charlie murdered, people believe that he was a mercy killer and he was not. So all of those victims had no voice. We sterilized their murders. And I wanted them to have a spotlight, not Charles Cullen, not my friend Charlie. I wanted those victims and the families that were robbed of people's opportunity to get better. I wanted them to have a voice. That was Amy Loughran who helped bring about the conviction of serial killer Charles Cullen. Now, in just under a month, this year's UN Climate Conference, COP27, will be happening in Egypt. Last year at COP26, which was in Glasgow, it was agreed that 1.5 degrees Celsius must be the limit for global heating. They also agreed to end and reverse deforestation by 2030.

However, it was seen as a failure that coal-reliant countries didn't commit to stop using coal. Ahead of COP27, much has been made of King Charles reportedly being told by the Prime Minister Liz Truss not to attend the conference, and that's despite his passion for climate issues. The papers are now reporting that the King will definitely not attend. It's still to be confirmed whether or not Liz Truss herself will be there.

So who will be attending and what will be discussed? Many believe climate change is one of the biggest threats facing the planet. And of course, just this weekend, Just Stop Oil protesters blocked roads in central London and a man and a woman were arrested in Australia for gluing themselves to a Picasso painting at the National Gallery of Victoria in Melbourne. They say the protest was to highlight climate chaos. But there are people, many of whom are women, who feel their voices aren't being heard. Two of those people join me now. Fawiza Farhan, who is an environmental activist in Indonesia, who was recently featured on Times Magazine's 100 Next list of rising stars to watch, who's in the studio with me,

and also Patience Nabukalu, who is a climate activist in Uganda. Very good morning to you both. Fawiza, I'd just like to come to you first. What started your passion for conservation? climate change are impacting the oceans and part of me felt disempowered part of me felt like i'm powerless and there's nothing i can do to stop rising um sea temperatures from bleaching the coral reef and because of that i thought maybe i'm gonna try to protect forests maybe that would be easier and of course that's naive um that was a fresh graduate thoughts. But it really, I could not stop. I could not not do anything to see all these distractions towards our environment. Tell us more about the work that you've been doing, particularly in your home country of Indonesia, because I know you've done a lot of work to try and conserve the Loyisa ecosystem, which is a forest that provides water and food for millions of people.

In reality, when we talk about the landscape like the Loisa ecosystem, we're talking about 2.7 million hectares of relatively intact forest in the scale of the province where it's located. It's huge. But then at the same time, if we zoom out and looking at the scale of Sumatra, the Loisa ecosystem is the minimum that we need to protect to ensure that we continue to have wildlife population. The Loysa ecosystem is the last place on earth where the critically endangered rhino, tiger, elephant, and orangutan are still roaming together in the wild.

At the same time, sometimes when we think of a landscape this amazing that provides ecosystem services for so many people, we think it would be logical to protect this landscape. But in reality, it's not. In reality, there is so much conflict of interest on what to do with the land, with the trees, with the resources that we have in this landscape. So the work that we do put a lot of focus on advocating for better policy to protect this landscape, but at the same time to involve more women and community members in the process of creating that policies. So a few years ago, we mobilized a group of community members to sue the government to improve the spatial plan. And the reason we do this is the fact that the community members have a direct stake.

When the government allow forest clearings or deforestation from taking place, the community member would be the one that are dealing with the consequences, such as floods and landslides that is decimating huge areas of land and villages. So you mentioned there that the women in the local community play a big part in this conservation effort but they don't always get the chance to make the decisions. What exactly is stopping them from becoming more involved and having more influence? Many things stopping a woman from having more influence and being more involved.

One of them, the realization that it is a patriarchal society. The expectations around women's and women's role are very different in places like Aceh, in places like the Loisar ecosystem. The kind of criticism that women have to face in strengthening their role. But at the same time, even if, you know, for example, I'm using a very specific case here.

For example, if there is a meeting to decide how the village budget and therefore the village decisions around forests in the area, the meeting is going to be attended by men. If the woman attended, they tend to be attended by men. If the woman attended, they tend to be in the kitchen preparing food for the meeting. They're not necessarily on the table, they're not necessarily voicing out their concerns, they're not necessarily consulted. Sometimes, even if there's a deliberate attempt to ask a woman, what do you think about this? Oftentimes, the man within her vicinity, either

her husband or her parents would answer for her without asking her, what is her thoughts? So the work that we do with the group of women in the Loisard ecosystem is simply trying to change that. Initially, we provide paralegal training and environmental impact assessment training. And the reason we do that is for them to have better understanding of their rights and access that they could obtain when they come across environmental problems, when they come across issues like deforestation and encroachment and poachings, and they could have an idea on what to do, who to contact, what are the steps. When we did these trainings, this group of

women responded by saying, hey, we have this patch of forest in our mountains that we want to protect. But every time we tried to stop someone encroaching into the forest, we got challenged. People ask, who are you and what are your rights? Why are you telling me not to cut down these trees and have plantations? And when we come across this problem, we realize, actually, this woman needs authority to acknowledge that they are the protector of the forest. And for that reason, we begin to establish this woman-led ranger team. And it's not an all-woman ranger team.

The reason is because we need every aspect of society of community to participate on this having a woman lead this initiative change her position in the village change her the the way people perceive her and the way she perceive her roles they begin to reclaim more of their rights they begin to they begin to reclaim sit on the table to make decisions pertaining to their livelihood. Yeah, and that's been one of the big talking points in the lead up to COP27, how more women can become involved and use their influence at this conference.

And Patience, I want to bring you in here because it's not just gender that will be discussed. It's also a conversation around the influence that developing countries have at this conference as well. Now, being from Uganda, where you do a lot of your fighting against climate change, how important is it that this is being held in Egypt, in the continent of Africa? Thank you very much. I'm so delighted to be hosted at BBC Women Hour. And, well, it is, I don't know how to express this, but I feel like as this COP is being framed to be an African COP,

our world leaders are so happy and the most affected people and areas, the frontliners of the climate crisis, we are frightened of our safety and attendance to this COP. This year has had increased flood rates, temperature rises. Hundreds of thousands have died from the worst impacts of climate change. And we have seen more investments in fossil fuels. For example, the East African crude oil pipeline, human rights violation and many others. But it's unfortunate that climate defenders,

the advocates, have been restricted to attend with hiked prices of accommodation and transportation to Egypt, denied accreditations for COP27. I leave a question. I always ask this and I'm like, is COP27 in Egypt? Is COP27? I leave a question and always ask myself, is COP27 a meeting of economic deals, well framed and dubbed to be an African COP? But it's so unfortunate that Africans,

the Global South, are not going to attend. And those that are going to attend, they have a lot of restrictions to their attendance. And I'm worried about our, I'm really worried about our going and attendance to this COP. Yes, it's in Africa, but we don't have a chance to attend to this. And we have lost the meaning of COP27 already. Yeah, so I think what you're referring to is that the accreditation in terms of people needing to secure badges to be able to go to this summit, to COP27.

But as I understand it, the way this badge system works, patients, is that a very limited number of people actually gain access to these badges are awarded these badges so that they can attend the the conference and even if they have these badges it doesn't guarantee that they'll be able to address the delegates and the negotiators anyway even having the accreditation well as i got and i got a chance to attend COP26. That was in Glasgow chance for the global south people, for the African activists to address their issues towards climate.

But it is the same issue right before we are not included. Negotiations are going to be made. It is not different from the past COP. And this makes it not the COP expected as it has been like thought about before that, oh, it is going to be in Africa. Africans are going to get an opportunity

to address their issues. And yeah, I don't feel like it's the case. Thank you, Patience. We're just having a little trouble with your line. So I'm going to move on to Fawiza now. And I did mention at the start there, Fawiza, that King Charles, who is passionate about climate change issues, won't be at COP27.

Prime Minister Liz Truss hasn't confirmed whether she will attend or not so you could have a situation where neither a head of government nor a head of state are in attendance from the uk what do you make of that um i think this is the time when the head of government and the head of state taking action in the similar way that activists does, boycotting something that they don't think might make a difference. You know, to be honest, I have never attended any COP, not COP biodiversity or COP climate.

Why not? Access, the case of access, our organization based on the ground, we are working with communities addressing issues like climate change, even if we don't talk the language of climate change. We have never had the budget to attend these international conferences on our own. And it is really difficult for us to actually have a seat at the table, because in reality, sometimes we may be invited to speak at the opening, and maybe none of the speech things. We applaud an activist for standing up and talking about the issues that they care about, but we don't invite them enough to have a seat at the table and make a difference. Yeah, and of course that COP27 summit begins next month. And so, as you can imagine, it's something that we will continue to discuss. Falwiza and Patience, thank you for coming onto the programme this morning and giving your insights and good luck with the rest of your campaigning. Now, Cecilia Knapp is

a poet, playwright and novelist and was the Young People's Laureate for London 2020-21. She won the Ruth Rendell Award in 2021, which honours the writer who has had the most significant influence on literacy in the UK in the past year. She's also been shortlisted for many poetry awards, including the 2022 Forward Prize. Her debut collection has just been released. It's called Peach Pig and candidly explores loss, motherlessness, the complicated relationships women have with their bodies and released. It's called Peach Pig and candidly explores loss, motherlessness, the complicated relationships women have with their bodies and grief. She's in the studio with me right now. Good morning to you, Cecilia. Good morning. Thanks for having me. I'm intrigued by the name Peach Pig. Why that name? When I was writing the book, I kept finding images of both peaches and pigs coming up in the work and I was

really interested in kind of the multiplicities that women can contain like we always get told that we are these soft and kind of pliant beautiful things as a kid I always had you know dolls and when I worked in a pub for years all the punters would say things like ain't you a peach um so the peach thing kind of speaks to like femininity I suppose but a lot of the book talks about how it feels to kind of navigate the world in a woman's body and how I felt like a pig a lot growing up. I had this impetus to shrink myself and I think a lot of women can feel a kind of hatred for themselves

and take a lack of pleasure in our bodies. And so the mention of pig kind of speaks to that feeling as well. But also what if women don't want to be peaches all the time? What if they want to be peaches all the time? What if they want to be pigs too? And what if we want to be multiple and, I guess, irreducible? So that's where the title comes from. Yeah, we can be more than one thing. Exactly. We aren't just solely one thing or the other. Now, the poems themselves are very candid.

And there's a lot about how women feel uncomfortable and insecure about their bodies, as you say, mentioning the term pig there. What's been your relationship with your body and how you've come to terms with what your body can do for you? I've had a really complicated relationship with my body. And in the book, there's lots of poems about food and the kind of denying yourself food. You know, writing for me has always been a way of figuring stuff out, and I learn a lot about myself and my sense of kind of shame around my body through writing the book,

and a lot of the book looks at kind of motherlessness I lost my mum when I was younger and um she was always on a diet some sort of diet or another um and I I guess uh I sort of wrote to kind of figure out where my own relationship with my body might have come from and what we inherit as women from society but also what mothers can pass down to their daughters as well um I'm definitely in a better place with my body now and I think writing the book kind of um kind of helped that and it sort of helped me to find a language for those complicated feelings. And also, I guess, because my mum had an illness and she was sick for quite a lot of my childhood, there are complicated feelings that come from disliking my own body because ultimately my

body is a healthy, wonderful thing. And so I wanted to look at that tension between feeling shame around my body but also feeling guilt around that shame too and some of the poems kind of explore that. I'm glad you've come to a kind of positive outcome through that journey because it can be very difficult to navigate how we feel about our bodies. Now I'd love to hear one of your poems if you could read My Mother Quit Bread that would be be great. Sure. So yeah, this poem kind of looks at a few of the things that we've talked about already this morning. So female inheritance and what we inherit from the women in our lives, but also society. And it also looks at kind of what we are, what we grow to learn to tolerate as women. My mother quit bread. And yes, I let a man who sometimes loved me flip me onto my stomach, pennies falling from his jeans.

I considered the sea, salting my brother's eczema. You're someone's son, I thought, as the man went to town on me. How hilarious. The picture of my mother people love most is the one where she's wearing washing-up gloves. I've lost count of the men, my skin a glowing pig. Grandad used to kick granny around the farm. Men will calm down in the end, she said. Keep quiet. Bad husbands can become good, but dead women can only ever be dead. dad left mum mum cited not enough bonking the woman he left her for wore linen shirts if a mother is absent her daughter becomes a scab

on an elbow a wild wet ruby the aunties in my family tapped their teeth knowingly before destroying a fresh pack of ready salted crisps wow that line um about if a mother is absent a daughter becomes a scab a wild wet ruby is that from your own experience that's how you felt I think there's definitely a sense of being sort of um untethered I suppose uh growing up like I was raised by just my dad and um I think I definitely felt that kind of lack of like a kind of maternal presence in my life um but also that sense that I guess the reason that I kind of focused intensely on that image of a scab is um on an elbow is it's something that keeps becoming reopened a wound that because of the motion of the elbow can't fully heal and I think losing a mother is quite a unique experience in the sense that you grow into you go sort of around

that loss but you never can really quite contain it I think and that's something that I've always felt you mentioned there um missing that maternal instinct that maternal nurturing so did you look for that in other places yeah I um I mean I have wonderful aunties if they're listening love you lots and I have fantastic female friendships um thankfully but yeah I guess I've um I've always kind of I looked for that kind of um relationship in in other women um in in aunties in friends but um but never quite found it I suppose and it impacted not just yourself but your brothers as well, because you were living with your dad and you had two brothers in the household with you and losing their mom, you know, impacted them, particularly one of your brothers who was had to deal with addiction later in life. and we lost him in 2012 to suicide. And anyone that reads the book will find that the second half of the book is very much about navigating that different type of grief. I think that grief after a suicide is a very unconcluded and complicated thing.

It comes with questions and anger and confusion. And I found that poetry was quite a useful tool to kind of navigate that loss because a poem can be about uncertainty and confusion. It can be about saying and not saying. And all of the poems in the second half of the book kind of look at that grief from a different angle. And yeah, I think that, you know, the book kind of look at that grief from a different angle and and yeah I think that you know the book is about losing my mom and about sort of finding out who I am as a woman without her but it's also about really it's about grief and those two different types of grief how they speak to each other how they're different from each other and how poems can help us find a

language to express them we've had a text come in from a listener who's been watching this, listening to this, and I'll come to that in just a moment. But first, before we come to that social media text, I just want to ask you about the process of writing this collection, because you mentioned there that it's helped you to process your grief. How so? And has it brought you to a more positive place? Yeah, I mean, it was National Poetry Day last week

and I was feeling very reflective and I was thinking about how poems have saved me so many times, not just poems, but other poets and their work too. Because I think that reading is is such a the feeling of reading a poem and feeling seen by that poem and feeling your life flood into that poem is an amazing thing it's it breeds empathy and connection but in in terms of writing yes poetry is such a unique thing and it's it's it's about creating the way to say something

unsayable thank you so much cecilia knapp great to have you on woman's hour we'll be back tomorrow and that's all for today's woman's hour join us again next time are you fed up with with the news top jobs in the new cabinet have all gone to horses in the apocalypse. And I loved it. The skewer. The skewer. The skewer. The news chopped and channeled. Don't make her angry. I will crush the British people. You wouldn't like her when she's angry. There's nothing new about a Labour leader.

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