Woman's Hour - Country singer Lainey Wilson, Sodium Valporate, Women and war in fiction

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

The Grammy award-winning Lainey Wilson is a country music trailblazer. She has made her way from Hannah Montana impersonator to performing at the Grand Ole Opry and she's been awarded seven Country Music Association Awards, including Entertainer of the Year in 2023 and six Academy of Country Music Awards. As a prolific songwriter she’s scored seven No. 1 hits including: Watermelon Moonshine and Heart Like A Truck. Her latest album, Whirlwind, earned a Grammy nomination and she is currently on a world tour promoting the album. She will be headlining at the Country to Country Festival at the O2 in London this weekend. She joins Nuala McGovern to discuss why she thinks country is cool again.In 2021, the Irish jockey Rachael Blackmore became the first female jockey to win the Grand National in the 182-year history of the race. The first woman to be leading jockey at the Cheltenham Festival with six victories, including the Champion Hurdle, and the following year she became the first female jockey to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup. Yesterday, she continued to make history winning the Stayers' Hurdle aboard Bob Olinger to complete a Cheltenham Festival double. All the more remarkable as she was sidelined for three months with a neck injury after a fall in September. We speak to Fern Buckley, BBC sports journalist, ahead of Blackmore's participation in Friday afternoon's Gold Cup race.In Bangladesh, there's been shocking news that an eight-year-old girl who was raped last week, has died from her injuries. Fierce protests have erupted in the country following the girl's death yesterday with people demanding that the government expedite justice for rape victims and reform laws related to women and children's safety. We hear from the BBC's South Asia Correspondent Samira Hussain who is based in Delhi, India.In the next of our Women’s Prize discussions, we hear from Clare Mulley on her book charting the life of Agent Zo – a courageous Polish female resistance fighter in World War Two, and VV Ganeshananthan about her novel Brotherless Night set during the Sri Lankan Civil War – winner of the Women’s Prize for Fiction last year. What can these writers in very different genres tell us about the experience of women in war?Catherine Cox from Nottingham was one of thousands of women who took the epilepsy drug sodium valproate while pregnant, something which is now advised against. She’s been campaigning for compensation for more than 20 years. Her son Matthew, who’s now 23, was born with a range of conditions, including autism, ADHD, epilepsy and several learning disabilities. At 18 months old, he was diagnosed with foetal valproate syndrome, indicating the medication Catherine took was the cause of his problems. Catherine joins Nuala alongside Dr Henrietta Hughes, Patient Safety Commissioner, whose report, released just over a year ago, recommended the need to compensate those harmed by valproate.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey Editor: Karen Dalziel

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme, Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2,

and of the risks it will take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Womans Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello. Welcome to Friday's programme.

Well, this morning, country music. I love a bit of country and I am very much looking forward to welcoming Grammy award winning singer songwriter, Lainey Wilson to this Woman's Hour studio. She's actually bigger in the UK before she was in the US, she's American, but maybe you're a fan of country. Why is that? Convert your fellow listeners this morning. What do you listen to and why? You can text the program 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note you

can sing it. That number is 03 700 100 444. Also today it has been more than a year since England's Patient Safety Commissioner set out plans for a compensation scheme for people affected by taking sodium valparate in pregnancy. It's thought to be one of the biggest medical scandals in recent history where we're going to hear from the Commissioner and from a mother whose child was affected that's coming up this hour. And we continue our series with long-listed authors and previous winners of the Women's Prize for Fiction and Nonfiction, Vivi Ganesh and Nathan and Claire Mulley. That fascinating

conversation between them coming up. Plus we'll look at the reason behind the large protests taking place in Bangladesh today. But let us begin with success. In 2021, the Irish jockey Rachel Blackmore became the first female jockey to win the Grand National in the 182 year history of the race. She also became the first woman to be the leading jockey at the Cheltenham Festival with six victories, including champion hurdle, and the following year became the first female jockey to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup.

Well, yesterday, the history streak continued. She won the Stairs hurdle aboard Bob Olinger to complete a Cheltenham Festival double. She claimed her first victory of this year's meeting with a brilliant ride on, air of entitlement, good name for the horse. All the more remarkable as she was sidelined you might know for three months with a neck injury that was after a fall in September and she also sadly had a family bereavement this week. She'll be riding in three races today

including the Cheltenham Gold Cup that's at 4 p.m. To discuss her significance, her impact, her success. I'm joined by the BBC sports journalist F Cup that's at 4pm. To discuss her significance, her impact, her success. I'm joined by the BBC sports journalist, Farran Buckley-Farran, great to have you with us. This is quite something, isn't it? To see that streak that she's on. Oh my goodness, good morning everyone. Hearing that intro just gives me goosebumps all over again.

It was just magic from Rachel once again, wasn't it? Alongside trainer Henry de Bromhead. They are just such a pair up and yeah, to see her continue this impressive form, she is breaking barriers, she is putting her name on the map, she is well respected. It's just fantastic getting that double yesterday as well. You know, I'm always struck by the way she speaks. First, she always gives the kudos to the horse, right? That is the way she works. And she also talked about, you know, hearing that some people are just luckier than others and she

leans onto that look and she talks about that positivity and optimistic mindset that she has that she believes she is lucky. Yeah, there is a little bit of that but also she is just a horse lover through and through, you know, she's got a degree in equine science so she is always at one with whatever horse she rides and she seems to build that connection and despite like you've mentioned having a neck injury after falling off a horse last September you think that would kind of make her a little bit nervous and scared to be back on a horse but it totally has done the opposite and she just whenever she goes

out riding she is fantastic to watch. And like you say, it always gives credits to the horse, which they deserve as well. And we always know if you go to a race or a meetup, you know that luck is sometimes on your side and sometimes isn't. But for her, getting that 18th victory, luck is on her side. I know. I mean, look, chance favors the prepared mind or the prepared body, perhaps, as well in this particular case. I think she is such a light touch, though, when she talks about these incredible victories that she has. And of course, this is woman's hour and many sports we have.

It is segregated. Women, for example, particularly being top off the field in a mixed sport doesn't happen that often. What is her impact being, do you think, when it comes to women in the sport? I think it's been huge. I mean, just over four years ago, no one really knew who Rachel Blackmore was, was she? But then, of course, the 2021 victory at the Grand National skyrocketed her to the top. And I think you ask most people nowadays to name a jockey off the top of their head.

Rachel Blackmore is probably the first one, you know, that'd think of, whether that's you're asking male or female. She is just the icon of the sport right now and she's doing so, so much. And you consider when she was winning these victories, it was Covid, so there weren't any spectators. Fans didn't really know of her until when these races were being televised and the media was surrounding her. So yes, she's done an awful lot but I think we have moved on in the four years since she won that victory. So much has happened in the world of women's sport, whether that's the women's Euro success or the red roses in the women's rugby world cup. We are in an era now where these names are becoming household names that we can talk about and I think if we can continue that upward trajectory then we're on to winning ways. I like that, the analogies. But you know what is also remarkable,

this goes for all jockeys including Rachel, but that you race more than one race in a day. I wonder what that takes out of somebody. Well you know it's exhausting isn't it, the adrenaline is high, then you're obviously trying to control the horse. You've got to go from the stables back out to the course and there's a lot to think about and, you know, managing the different horse personalities. You know, every horse is so, so different. So the fact that Rachel was off the double yesterday, she's doing treble today, three races, it takes a lot, but she is so healthy with her mindset, her physical attributes as well. So I think she'll be absolutely fine and going for that gold cup win. So what do we have to look forward to today?

So it is going to be quite an exciting day. She was actually out first thing this morning on the gallops as well. There's plenty of opportunity to watch her from one o'clock. She's in the triumph hurdles on Blue Lemons and the novices hurdle as well on Argento Boy as well as gold cup on Monte star. Monte star has never actually won a race. He placed back in January, came second in a new year's day meet. But of course, Rachel has won the gold cup before, hasn't she?

On Apple TAR. It all comes down to conditions. We saw the snow yesterday earlier this week. The surface changes so anything can happen but she goes up against a little bit of a difficult character, Galapin Deschamps, looking extremely strong but she has also spoken out today for people that want to watch the gold cup and maybe you know have a little dabble, she says to choose a horse today anyone that's overly sweaty or acting a little bit naughty could be a sign of a disappointing performance.

So I'm good. She's hoping Monty Starr is going to be acting on his best behavior this morning. Let us see. Thank you so much for joining us. That is Fern Buckley, BBC Sports journalist. And as I mentioned, that Cheltenham Gold Cup at 4pm today. Among the other races that Rachel Blackmore is riding in. I want to turn next to Catherine Cox who was one of thousands of women who took the epilepsy

drug sodium valparate while pregnant, something which is now advised against. Her son Matthew who is now 23 was born with a range of conditions including autism, ADHD, epilepsy and several learning disabilities. At 18 months of age, he was diagnosed with Fetal Valparais syndrome. So that indicated that the medication that Catherine took was the cause of his issues. Catherine has now been campaigning for compensation for more than 20 years. She joins me to discuss her campaign. Catherine, good morning.

Good morning, Niula. Thank you for having me. Thank you for joining us. In studio with me is Dr. Henrietta Hughes, who is the patient safety commissioner. Her report was released more than a year ago now, and it recommended the need to compensate those harmed by valparate.

The government is still working on a response, and I'll come to you in just a moment, but let me begin with you Catherine you were diagnosed with epilepsy during puberty you had been on this drug sodium valparate for quite some time do you remember the advice you were given when you were thinking about getting pregnant? Yes I think like a lot of women with a long-term condition you once feel in control of that condition. So prior to us deciding to have children, I sought the advice of my consultant at the time. I asked him if it was safe to go forward and have children on sodium valproate. And

there was sort of quite a patriarchal approach. I was patronized, I was told that of course I should be on it. Did I know that if I had a seizure I could kill a baby? I asked him if there were any risks. He said to me there was a slight risk of spina bifida, that they would counter that by putting me on high dose of folic acid during pregnancy and at 20 weeks I would have a detailed scan that would give them any answers on that. At 20 weeks I did have a detailed scan, it came back all clear. We thought we were going on to have a healthy child and throughout the, we had a difficult birth with Matthew. It was very difficult, it was very long, it was drawn out.

Matthew was not breathing when he was born. He then went through a period of withdrawal from the drug. I couldn't breastfeed him because of the structure of his mouth. We didn't find that out till later. Before nine months, I already knew in my gut that there was something really not right. Did you? Yes, it's so awful to feel like you're judging your child and that your child, you know, isn't where they should be, but I just knew in my gut there was something wrong.

And this was your first child? It was my first child, yes. Did you expect withdrawal from the drug for Matthew? No. No. I found over time, I'm the expert in the room. Nobody seems to know. People are learning from us.

And, you know, for all of our families in the campaign that in fact have run over time, led by Janet Williams and Emma Murphy, of which I'm extremely proud to be part of. We are the ones forcing change all the time. We've been patronised, we've been told that we are mothers who are, you know, we're over sensitive, we're over anxious about our children. It then goes on through education where we are the ones leading reviews, we are the ones leading reviews, we are the ones pushing for support for children for a condition that nobody seems to know about and for which nobody seems to be able to advise us on. So we end up educating other

people. So you said you felt it from when Matthew was conceived a number of months in, that there was something not right. How did it manifest after he was born? How long did it take for people to agree with you? So, it's about six months he had a photograph taken and the light wasn't shining on both eyes in the same place and I thought he may have a squint. And then I was just very conscious that he was either only just making his milestones or he was starting to miss them. And then at nine months, I read a report on the BBC website and it was about a doctor called Jim Morrow who had done some research and it said that there was a connection between women taking valproate in pregnancy and their children not meeting their developmental goals.

Everything that he talked about in that report felt like he was talking about Matthew. Because of the way that things were, I actually took my mum to the GP appointment for support and my GP he listened to me for 10 minutes without saying a word and then he said to me I've never heard of it and then there was a slight pause and he said but I believe you and that was a huge moment for us because at that point I felt like I wasn't going mad. It's quite powerful that image of 10 minutes and then the silence and coming back with an affirmation really from that doctor. And I've got to say that I was very lucky in that because a lot of mothers have been dismissed for years and years and years.

It was very early into Matthew's development that we were believed and trusted and we went forward. You know, we're 23 or maybe 24, even if we look at it from when you were pregnant, Catherine. What has life been like for you and for him? I think that for all of us in the family, it's been different to what we expected. Would I be without him? Never in the world. He's enhanced us in so many ways. I'm a much better person for having him. I think that our worry is going forward. We're

not getting any younger. I became part of this campaign 21, 22 years ago when I was in my early 30s. I'm now in my 50s, we need something that puts in place some security for Matthew going forward. He's extremely vulnerable. And once they found out that Matthew had Fetal Valparoid Syndrome, they moved me to another medication. I had a daughter who was completely healthy, and everyone says to me, oh, isn't it brilliant that Charlotte's not affected?

But she is affected. She's affected forever. Because if we're no longer here, she has to take up that care for Matthew. And we need something to happen. And with the best one in the world, it feels like the government wants us to die because our children will not be able to fight for this. Does that weigh on you that the responsibility of Matthew will in some way, who knows how, be on his sister? Absolutely. Every single day. She's 100% healthy. She's meeting all of her, you know, she's

doing her A-levels at the moment. We expect her to go to university. She should at that point have choices to go on and have the life that she wants to have. She should not, you know, if she wants to have children that she then has responsibility for, that's great. But actually she's born with, you know, responsibility that in a way she didn't ask for. But we're lucky in that she should be intelligent to take that forward. A lot of families don't even have that fallback at the moment. Let me bring in Dr. Hughes here and thank you Catherine for sharing your story. We heard a little of Catherine,

what she was told at the time, her experience, but the guidance around the prescription has changed in recent years. Yes, I first of all wanted to say thank you so much to Catherine for sharing your experience. I think, you know, I've spoken to many women who've been affected by, you know, treatment with valparate in pregnancy and have described very similar experiences of being ignored and fobbed off,

not given the right information. In fact, if you go back to 1973, when it was first found out that valparate could harm the unborn child, it was decided by a government committee that doctors should be given the information and it should be concealed from patients because, you know... Concealed? Yes, because it might create unwarranted anxiety. And I think that just speaks to the patriarchal approach that Catherine so eloquently described.

And this is why I believe that the patients, and we do believe there's around 20,000 children affected by valparade, should be entitled to urgent redress because of the injustice that they've suffered. Now you in your 2024 reports you set out the recommendations including as you talk about their compensation scheme for families of children harmed by evalperate taken in pregnancy and also access to non financial redress Which obviously Catherine is underlining there in the sense of what people might need to live In a way without their parents perhaps in the future. What is the status of those schemes?

parents perhaps in the future. What is the status of those schemes? So you mentioned that there are things that have improved in terms of information and I've been working closely with colleagues across the system to improve the safety of the medicine so that people get the medicine dispensed from their pharmacist in original packaging with the right warning labels, that there's a whole system approach to ensure that women are getting the right information when they're receiving the treatment, the access to contraception that they need, that they're getting the right support with their GP and the community pharmacist as well, a whole system approach. But as well as that, I'm very pleased that a specialist centre has been set up for children suspected of fetal

valparite syndrome but that's only for patients in the north of England and I really want that to be extended because you know Katherine described that her son was able to be diagnosed and we know that there are thousands of children who haven't received that diagnosis and that can have a knock-on effect in terms of access to the right benefits and the right support, particularly in education. But in terms of the risks that these young people and some of them now in adulthood face, so exactly as Catherine's described, their mums have got long-term conditions, epilepsy and bipolar and other conditions as well. So they're fearful about, you know, their own

health needs and who's going to be able to look after the children. So what is the government's response at this point? In terms of financial redress, I set out a two-stage scheme. The first was an interim scheme to identify everyone who's affected, not only by valprate harm but also pelvic mesh. And then a main scheme whereby the level of harm wouldn't entitle people to different levels of financial address and I'm still waiting for a government response more than one year since I published my report. What is the current guidance? You

mentioned there medication being issued with proper instructions etc in the sense of patient safety but if somebody is pregnant now and has, or is thinking about becoming pregnant now and has been taken valparate for epilepsy or whatever condition it may be, what is the guidance? So the guidance is that there should be a whole system approach and that women who, we're talking about reproductive choice here and there is for some women it's not appropriate for them to take contraception for religious reasons or cultural reasons,

but it's really important that women receive the right information, and men as well, because it's been identified that the children of men who are taking Vapourite can be affected. So it's vital that people get the right information. Unfortunately, at the moment, you can't get the specialist obstetric advice until you're already pregnant and that's something that I've

called for a change. So you would like to see that change as well but that has not changed yet? That has not changed so unfortunately we do have a situation. When I came into post nearly three years ago three babies a month were born exposed to valparade and through the work of NHS England and my what my work and with MHRA those numbers have dramatically declined in fact prescribing of valparate to women of childbearing potential has dramatically declined but for some it is the only option for them so then it's about looking at other ways of mitigating the risk reducing the dose looking at other

alternatives and really only using valparate as a last resort if women aren't able to take contraception. We'll continue following it. Dr. Henrietta Hughes, patient safety commissioner who is waiting for a response to her report, Catherine Cox who told her story. I do want to read Department of Health and Social Care a statement. It says the harm caused by sodium valparate continues to be felt today. Our sympathies are with those affected and we're fully focused on how best to support patients and prevent future harm. It's a complex area of work and the government is carefully considering the patient safety's commissioners recommendations in full. That's Dr. Hughes's recommendations. Health Minister Baroness Gillian Merrin has met patients affected and

has committed to providing an update at the earliest opportunity. So no specific time scale there. I will just read one from the MHRA which is the regulatory body. Their statement says patient safety is our highest priority. No one should stop taking Valparaiso without seeking advice from their health care professional. It goes on to say other things but I just want to underline that of course with any of these medical issues to consult your GP. Thank you both for coming in. Thank you. Lots of you getting in touch. Please, please, please don't discuss country music without a mention of Rhiannon Giddens, a brilliant singer, songwriter and woman of color. She's fabulous. That's

Anne from Shropshire. Anne, you've just done it. She has got a mention on Woman's Hour this morning. Country music 84844. But before that, let us move on to this discussion as part of a series with this year's long listed writers and previous winners of the Women's Prize for Fiction and Nonfiction. We have Claire Mulley with us. Her book is Age and So. The Untold Story of Fearless World War Two Resistance Fighter

Elsbieta Zawacka. It's long listed for the nonfiction this year. It charts the life of Agent Zoe, a courageous Polish female resistance fighter in World War II. Also with us, Vivi Ganesh-Eighton, also known as Sugie, to talk about her novel Brotherless Night, which is set during the Sri Lankan Civil War in the 1980s. It won the Women's Prize for Fiction last year. Well, what can these writers in different genres tell us about the experiences of women in war?

And why haven't we heard these voices? I start by asking Claire why she chose to research and write about war. In history generally, there's a rich seam of untold or poorly told, romantically told, women's stories. And war, of course, the demands of war trump everything. So they often subvert the usual or the accepted gender relations in society, enabling women to take a different role, to be centre stage. I always love the fact that centre stage is an anagram for secret agent.

Is it? It is. So war is a wonderful opportunity to tell these stories which still haven't been told or haven't been told effectively. I think when we talk about women in the resistance and particularly female special agents we tend to focus on courage, which is right, and sacrifice and what we don't talk about is achievement, how effective these women are. So in looking at women's role in Second World War as pilots, special agents, secret agents, it enables me to really rewrite that part of our history and bring a truer picture.

So that's the Second World War. But I want to turn to you, Sugi, for a moment, because you write about the Sri Lankan Civil War. And I think many people may not be as familiar with those stories at all. Were you apprehensive in any way in trying to bring this to an audience? Well, I think that it is an opportunity to, as Claire notes, to kind of tell the stories that are less represented in the case of the Sri Lankan Civil War. And I think in writing Brotherless Night, I was trying to shift the attention to civilians and to specifically to women who were civilians. I like the idea of effectiveness. That's a helpful way to think about it, actually. The ways in which these women were crucial

to maintaining civilian life, protecting their families, defending spaces for education, the spaces that are really crucial to civil society. And so I think in, yeah, in depicting the Sri Lankan Civil War, I have to explain some things, but women are also used to those sorts of explanations. And my protagonist fortunately fortunately, developed a way of doing it that I ended up being comfortable with, where she a little bit argues with the notion of explanations, even as she's giving them. And it's a young woman's perspective that you are giving. How was that to write her? She was delightful. I think that voice is often one of the most challenging parts of fiction to talk about because it is so subconscious and I've been fortunate to write two voice-driven novels in which first-person women

narrators sort of presented themselves to me and were very clearly in charge and to kind of let go and allow my instincts to follow her was a huge pleasure. To write about a woman's mind under such circumstances was really interesting and to watch the ways in which women grew and changed and responded differently to challenging situations. I think I learned a lot doing it. Let me turn back to you, Claire. Agent Zoe, who was she? Zoe was the only woman to parachute from Britain to Nazi German-occupied Poland during the Second World War as the only female member of the Polish elite special forces, the Czikociemni,

or the Silent Unseen, that translates as. And in occupied territory territory she created a very important military intelligence network using all women actually to gather that intelligence and to transport it. She became a very important courier often going right in to the heart of the Third Reich into Berlin itself with information from Warsaw which a contact at an embassy could then get out to London. But she was also the only woman to reach Britain from Warsaw, over nearly a thousand miles of enemy-occupied territory in the middle of the war, with two very important microfilms and two missions to undertake in Britain for the commander-in-chief

of the Polish Resistance Home Army. Ironically, one of the things that made the women so effective is that women had a superpower in the 1940s, arguably still today, and it's not that they were flirty or matahari kind of femme fatales. In fact, if they were attractive – some of them were very beautiful, some weren't – but if they were attractive, it could be a problem because a beautiful face is more memorable. The women's superpower was that they were overlooked generally and underestimated, particularly by the German occupying authorities, a very machoistic society. So when she set up her intelligence network it was all women because they were the secretaries and the office

cleaners and the women that worked in the bakeries and the laundress and they just weren't suspected the same way as able-bodied men of conscription age which were always immediately subject to attention. The irony is of course that after the war the women continued to be unrecognized and that's partly why we don't know their stories today. They were just forgotten. Let me come back to you Sugi. I think listening to Claire speaking about Agent Zo, you also have an interesting parallel in your book where Sashi is able to ride her bicycle without suspicion because she's a girl? Yes, there are a lot of moments when Sashi is able

to slip in and out of spaces or be present as an observer and people don't realize quite how keen of an observer she is and she's also very imaginative so even when there are spaces into which she doesn't enter physically, she's someone who teaches herself to become a little bit of an investigator. She joins a group that is documenting human rights violations and begins to do that sometimes in disguise actually. And so her status as a woman does make it so that in some ways she's safer than the young men who are her age,

who are often under suspicion of being militants. And she has a kind of mobility that she learns to take advantage of. And in terms of her loyalties, she's a Tamil woman. She lives in Jaffna, a northern city in Sri Lanka, and she is someone who is critical of the state. And then as her brothers joined this Tamil nationalist movement, she finds herself critical of them as well as they commit atrocities. And she also questions kind of their politics. So she begins to question the shapes

that resistance can take. And she kind of finds her place in a civilian resistance that is really led by educators and also their students. So the novel really, I suppose, depicts campus as a place of resistance, which is an interesting thought at this particular moment. It definitely is. It definitely is. I spent quite a bit of time on Columbia's campus last year. Sugi, how did you find sources to create this fiction? Because it's based in historical fact. It is based in historical fact.

And it's actually quite a bit of it is it's not the easiest historical fact to find even when there are events. So to think about the versions of things that I had heard, which was, of course, where I began as a, as a member of the community. I'd grown up with some of these stories and then to check the versions of stories that I knew against books through interviews to triangulate different sources kind of against each other. I read memoirs and just general nonfiction and also human rights documents by different parties and to kind of compare those to each other

and see where were the illusions or omissions, where were things, where were facts being presented incorrectly or selectively, it was a very intense kind of reading for sure. And I was also very, very fortunate to speak to a lot of people who lived through that time period and who told me what it was like to be under that kind of constant really what seems to have been surveillance like an intense and constant surveillance so I wanted to

have my childhood stories match the standard that I had learned as a journalist as a scholar and also as a reader of historical fiction yes and of course there can be gaps between those two, which you are trying to find and verify. But I am struck that there are parallels, Claire, you know, as Sugie speaks there, that thought of being observed or spied upon or neighbor against neighbor, which is something, of course, of Poland that. Very much, yes. In the Second World War, I think Zou knew that the majority of the Polish

population, I mean, almost all of them were resistant to the incredibly brutal German occupation. One of the interesting things, I mean, talking about the sources for doing the research for these books, is that in Poland they are left with a Soviet imposed communist regime and that was a very repressive regime. And so one of the great ironies of those stories is that she's a hair's breadth from being arrested by the Gestapo through six years of the war but she's only arrested by her own government, the Polish communist government, in 1951. And she was sentenced to ten years and she was tortured actually but she didn't speak. She got out after six years but even

when she got out they made sure her story was hidden and the the narrative was being rewritten inside Poland from a communist or Soviet perspective and one of the things that Zoe found was that not only was the Home Army their role and contribution minimised, but the women were written out entirely. So she then, on her own, collected testimonies from people and this is one of the wonderful resources we've got still often scribbled in her terrible handwriting on the backs of envelopes and so on. And she hid them inside her underwear drawer and so on. And then eventually the government realised what she was doing and

she's arrested again in 1976 because this work preserving the women's history was considered seditious. So that tells you a lot. Staying with you Claire Hour a few weeks ago, that the, and I'm quoting, the expert, the default voice is male. And this comes into play particularly, I think, with historical fiction or non-fiction. How do you feel about that term expert or what are your thoughts on it? Well, I think Kate Moss is absolutely right.. I mean I just quote her in a note on sources at the back of the book because I was inspired and I absolutely recognized what she was saying and actually this is something that Zoe recognized as well. So in the 1960s she said, men keep talking about their own participation in the war and

yet this complete passing over in silence of women's work stalled with sentimental or praising cliché, is tantamount to falsifying the history. And she was saying that in the 1960s. We're much less good at looking for the absent data. And often it's not just that publishers don't want to publish it, but it's missing from the archives. I've done research where people have shown me archival folders with information on, but they've got them at home and I said, well, why is that not in the Freiburg Library or where the men's papers are? And it's literally said it's marked as domestic because there are women, it can't be relevant and it's sent back to families. So you have to dig that much deeper to get the information in the first place.

Rifling through underwear drawers. But to you, Sugie, on that, what about that term expert? To me, I don't know, I think expert often suggests that there's one. And I think about, you know, when people assemble panels of experts, and I'm sure Claire, you must be familiar with this as well, you know, when you see a panel of experts and there's one woman on it, right, or I don't know, people have to fill kind of each slot and so there's a kind of box ticking that prevents a discussion of any real depth.

I love the term expert. I just want there to be more and more experts, you know. I completely recognize what Suki's saying about having the representative female on a panel or even, you know, the women's panel in a military history conference or something like that. And I long for the time when this history isn't seen as women's history this is just part of his general history you know the the stories that I tell shouldn't be put on the women's history shelves although I do find them there still in bookshops and libraries they should be in the military history cells the world war i can see you moving some of the books over of course turn them forward-facing. But yes, I think experts are important, but we need more of them.

So let me finish with you. You won the Women's Prize for Fiction last year. What changed? Oh my goodness. Still one of the most shocking things that has ever happened to me. I think that, you know, I'm so grateful that the prize really helped the book to find more readers and I think particularly, you know, readers in the Commonwealth who, because of the Commonwealth's connection to Sri Lanka and the colonial history, I think have a deep interest in former British colonies and that history. And so it has been a huge privilege to engage with readers all over the world. Also just to be part of the storied history of the prize, to be part of this conversation, the fact that it's in its 30th year and has had such an amazing impact, that more and more people are reading women seriously, thinking about women's lives seriously.

And, you know, as Claire says, it's not women's history, it's just history. And to bring more people to the point where they are able to treat it as such is really exciting and it's a huge honor. That was Vivi Ganesh Nathan, also known as Sugie, and on her novel Brotherless Night. Also we had Claire Mulley on Agents So. Next week we're speaking to long listed author Kate Summerscale alongside Women's Prize for Fiction winner Camila Shamsie. I'm looking forward to that as well. Thanks for your messages that are coming in on country music but also on Valparade which

we've been speaking about. Here's one from Mike, he says, good morning. As a 44 year old male I've been taking sodium valparais for decades now. I am a father of three children, one who has poor sight and another with a blood clotting disorder. Out of the blue I had a letter from my doctor last month advising me not to father children. Without a discussion with my GP what work is ongoing to look at the paternal side of the equation? We did just touch on a briefly Mike but it is definitely something that needs to be discussed when we discuss sodium evaporate and fertility.

What do Bridgerton actor Adjoa Ando, Nature presenter Raewyn Grant and TikTok sensation, Mama Sebes, all have in common. They're all guests on Dear Daughter's Stars from the BBC World Service. I'm Namulanta Kombo, and for the new series of Dear Daughter, I'm welcoming an all-star lineup to share stories of parenting in the spotlight.

Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. I want to move on to a story and I want to give you a warning first that you may find some details in the next story, distressing. It's a developing story at the moment. In Bangladesh, there has been shocking news that an eight year old girl who was raped last week has died from her injuries. Fierce protests have erupted in the country following that death with people demanding that the government expedite justice for rape victims and reform laws related to women and children's safety. I want to turn to our BBC South Asia correspondent Samira

Hussain who joins me. Samira, good to have you with us. A terrible story. We do know that people have taken to the streets in anger, but I'm wondering what do we know about this little girl? Right, so what we know is that she was allegedly raped while she was visiting her elder sister's home in the city of Magura, which is about three and a half hours southwest of the capital of Dhaka. And she was visiting her sometime between the night of, or when the incident took place rather, was sometime between the night of the 5th of March and the following morning. And she ended up spending six days in critical condition at a military hospital in the capital

of Dhaka after she was admitted on the 8th of March. So it seemed that it took a few days before she was actually admitted into hospital. And then we found, you know, people found out that she had died on Thursday evening. And that's really when you saw, you know, people taking to the streets, not only in the city of Maghura, but also in the capital of Dhaka, as you rightly pointed out, demanding justice and a speedy trial. What has the government response been so far? Well, so far the government has been saying, look, we do feel that we may be able to offer

this speedy trial, that they have interviewed or have gotten statements from more than a dozen people and that they anticipate being able to take this to court within the next seven days. The rape of minors is punishable by death in Bangladesh. That's a law that was passed in 2020. I'm wondering what the conversation is about that. And also perhaps a feeling that you could give us that you are hearing about. Right, so you know the thing to remember of course about rape and you know and what happens in many countries not just in South Asia is that you know women

are very fearful to report it, they are worried about being stigmatized. Worse in terms of actually getting convictions. Those rates are very, very low. And then of course there is the possible repercussions on them themselves, on the people that are reporting. Now this is something that human rights organizations point to as to why you don't see that many rapes that are actually reported because when you look at in terms of how many are actually taken to court it's really very few. And so, I mean this is 2020, that law was passed. Has anyone, if we know, faced the death penalty in Bangladesh for rape of a minor? Right, not to our knowledge but you also have to remember that, you know, Bangladesh is currently in the midst of a massive amount of political upheaval. The government was overthrown

last year. There's an interim government in place and, you know, so there's quite a lot of instability that exists in Bangladesh right now. Of course, no excuse, but just offering context about just how difficult the justice system or how fragile the civil systems are in Bangladesh at the moment. But they do have a number of people that they have arrested. I'm wondering if the government will be under pressure to move more quickly considering people have taken to the streets. Absolutely, I think there is certainly that pressure. You know, you had the girls funeral that happened in that small town that happened on Thursday night.

And that's when you saw a lot of protests. But then there was also, you know, a shadow funeral that took place in Dhaka, in the capital, at the university, and many women took taking to the streets, just really angry about what happened to such a young girl. Now the elder sister is whom this young girl was visiting. She was visiting her older sister. Now her 18-year-old husband, along with his parents and brother were also arrested. So the expectation is that they will hopefully be able to see them appear in court. But I

think you're absolutely right that because of the protest, the government is certainly under a ton of pressure to make sure this goes fast. Before I let you go Samira, I mean, has there been conversations prior to this about the safety of women and girls in Bangladesh? I think a lot of times what hits the headlines internationally is not Bangladesh, to be quite honest. India, for example, perhaps is somewhere that seems to get more attention. I think it's also because of just how fragile the political situation is in Bangladesh.

For more than a decade they were under an authoritarian rule. It was quite a brutal regime under the hands of Sheikh Hasina and that regime was only overthrown seven months ago. And so now you have this interim government. So I think now there's a sense that perhaps in terms of some issues there's a little bit more freedom to speak out, whereas before, just that freedom didn't exist. Samira Hussain, thank you very much for bringing us

up to date on a story very disturbing that we are hearing out of Bangladesh this morning. Lots of messages coming in. Let me see, here is one. I was just listening to Catherine Cox. I was told, this is on Valparade, I was told exactly the same thing by my specialist. I have two adults affected by the epilim I took during pregnancy, aged 30 and 26. And I never came across any professionals who heard of fetal valparate syndrome

until we met the geneticist who diagnosed them at 13 and 16. In fact, they've been amazing, but the government intentionally chose to withhold the information from parents. It's disgusting talking about the patients commissioner, safety commissioner had said on this program and the fact that they won't actually accept this report still after a year is appalling. Best regards. And of course, the government says that they are considering

all the evidence and how to respond. Country music. When my daughter was very small and I was going through a horrible divorce to get me through, I ran a one-woman disco and played a lot of upbeat music. I'd got a couple of Miranda Lambert CDs and I'd played them in the car. My daughter adored them. Soon I wasn't allowed to play anything else. We got a Dixie Chicks album, now called The Chicks, and some Dolly Parton and that was it. She has been singing country ever since. Well, your daughter's going to love the next item because Belle Botton, Hat Sporting, Grammy Award winning Lady Wilson is a country music trailblazer and she's sitting opposite me right now. She's been awarded seven Country Music Association Awards, including Entertainer of the Year in 2023 and six Academy of Country Music Awards. She has scored as songwriter seven number ones,

including Watermelon Moonshine, Heart Like a Truck. She's written songs for artists such as Post Malone, Dolly Parton, Luke Combs, Ashley McBride. Country is cool again, Lainey, isn't it? It is. It's always been cool, but it definitely feels cool right now. You are so welcome to Woman's Hour. I should let people know your latest album is Whirlwind, which earned a Grammy nomination. In fact, some people might remember you performed at the Grammys. I did. People are still talking about it.

It was so much fun. The very first time I had the opportunity to actually perform on the Grammys and I have had the opportunity to actually perform on the Grammys and just getting to share that stage with the people that I did. It's wild. Life is cool. So this was Let the Good Times Roll by Ray Charles, but it was a tribute to the late Quincy Jones, which of course was a heaps of master of so many genres. You looked amazing on that. You look amazing, obviously, in the studio this morning.

Thank you. You've got the fringing, you've got the hat. I like it. My hype girl, I'll take it. It's suede, a suede ensemble. You look great. Thank you. And you are in town, of course, with this huge country to country festival, which is on at the O2 in London. I went last year. You are in for a good time. I am so excited. I'm telling you, like, the first time I played C2C was 2019, and then in 2023, I was direct support for Thomas Rhett, who was headlining, and it's just cool to be back and

be headlining myself. I know they are a very passionate crowd down there, so I think... They are, that's the word, passionate. Definitely, and so friendly as well. are, that's the word, passionate. Definitely and so friendly as well. So you're definitely in for a great time. Now you've described your sound, I love this, bell-bottom country. That's right. Tell us a little bit more about that for the uninitiated. For sure, for sure. So bell-bottom country to me is really just kind of like leaning into the things that make you you. I'm from a town of 180 people. All that? In Louisiana. Yep, those exist and then yeah just everything from the sound to the look to my story. I feel like Bell Bottom Country, that's what it means to me and then when it comes

to the sound it's kind of fresh but familiar. What was that like growing up in such a small town? Everybody knows you. You know everybody. They are there when you need them. They're there when you don't. They're just there. Now I love where I'm from. I am who I am because of the the place that raised me. I'm very proud to be from the village of Baskin. Now you have obviously had this amazing career already, even though you're only in your early 30s. The latest album is Whirlwind, which I mentioned earned a Grammy nomination.

Why Whirlwind? Because that's what my life has been the last few years. That's the word that kept coming up. That's the word that I kept hearing. I would read a book and I'd see the word whirlwind and I feel like writing this record helped me keep one foot on the ground. During a time of my life that was like constantly changing daily. One cowboy boot on the ground. That's it. You are, I think I read, trying to find peace at the eye of the storm. How do you do that? Keep my people

close even though I do live eight hours from from my family, my sister and her three little boys, it's important for me to FaceTime them, call them, like make sure that I'm keeping the people close that where I feel like Laney the sister and the friend and the daughter and the dog mama, the fiancee I got engaged a few weeks ago. Congratulations. Thank you. All those moments and people that just kind of remind you who you are and encourage you to stay true to yourself and your story. So you talk about eight hours away. You're in Nashville. Yes. Now you went there after high school.

I did. So lived in a camper trailer for a couple of years. So what age were you then? I was 19. And this mission, this ambition? Oh my goodness. I've been there for 15 years now, which is really, really hard to believe, but at a very early age, after I wrote my first song at nine years old and went to Nashville for the first time. That's just so crazy.

I just knew it. Like, I knew it in my heart. I knew it in my spirit. I knew it in my spirit. My parents helped me do anything that they possibly could just to get me to the honky tonk talent searches and the country Colgate showdowns. Anything for me to be involved. They knew that I wanted to do this. So they were helping me along the way.

Were they big country music people? 100%. Yeah. Where I'm from, country music is really more than a genre. It's a way of life. And so growing up, it was just the soundtrack of our lives. And I just remember hearing the voices on the radio and feeling like I knew them. So nine-year-old, Lainey Wilson, when you went there, what do you remember about the

Grand Ole Opry at that stage? Oh, I remember everything. I remember how the popcorn tasted. What did it taste like? It was better than ever. They always have the best popcorn. But I remember where I was sitting. I remember seeing Bill Anderson, Crystal Gale, Phil Vassar, little Jimmy Dickens, and just

looking up there at that circle on the stage and thinking, I'm going to do that. I'm going to stand in that circle at some point in time. And you did. I did. You got inducted. I got inducted. Which is an amazing thing. But I'm thinking nine year old Lainey, nine years later, comes back at 18 with that still very much with a goal in mind. And they often talk about Nashville, you know, as a 10 year town.

I'm sure you've heard that, that it's gonna take 10 years for you to make it. Were you prepared? If that's how long it takes, that's how long it takes? I had decided pretty early on that no matter how long it took me, I was just gonna stay the course. I felt like this is the only thing I know how to do and I felt like if I had a plan B that plan A would not work and so I just was extremely hard-headed. I probably should have packed it up and went home a few times. I think a lot of people are glad that you did not. But it's interesting isn't it that you still need to go to Nashville, be there in the flesh. What is it like to live there? Like are you

constantly hustling trying to meet with this person or that person or perform? You know, I feel like the earlier years of me being in Nashville looked a lot different than they do now. For me, it used to be going to Music Row every single day and just writing multiple songs a day. So where is it that you go? Music Row. Yeah, tell me that you go? Music Row. Yeah, tell me a little bit more about it. It's just basically where lots of publishing houses, lots of record labels are just in

this area of town and it was important for me to try to get to know everybody, everybody in the business and I felt like for years I was running for mayor. I felt like I was shaking hands and kissing babies and but I developed a lot of really great friendships and people who are gonna have my back and a lot of people who became my champion and I think that's I think that's a big part of navigating this industry is having probably any industry is just having that person that can kind of speak on your behalf. But it is even though we have these huge country music stars, women now and before. It was a male dominated industry, particularly those that are making the decisions.

I wonder how you found that. You know what? When I first got to town, I saw lots of my friends and my buddies and a lot of the dudes kind of like just skipping on around me and signing those publishing deals and the record deals. But I still had this feeling of like, okay, slow and steady, slow and steady wins the race. So for me, it was just like brick by brick trying to build a very strong foundation for when that house did start to kind of like being built up, that I was going to be prepared for it and ready for it. And I'm so glad that it has happened the way that it has. I don't think I would change

anything about it. They call you a triple threat of singing, writing and acting because you were also, and your song was, in the Paramount Network television series Yellowstone. Any favorite part of that? Music is always gonna be my number one, my baby, but what I've learned is I really just like, I like being creative. I like coloring outside of the lines and trying things that I've never tried. I want to always feel like I'm learning and growing and learning something about myself, the world, other people and I think as long as I'm being creative I'm doing that. It's so glamorous, a lot of the women that I've met, a lot of rhinestones on the men too,

but at times, but particularly the women. Do you feel there's a pressure there for women in country to have a certain look or to be able to be, I mean, very glamorous each day? They're definitely, like I'd be lying to you if I told you there was not pressure around it. And I do feel like in order for a female to make it right now, like she definitely has to have like her thing.

And like a lot of my friends who are doing really, really it right now, like she definitely has to have like her thing. And like a lot of my friends who are doing really, really well right now, a lot of the girls, like Ella Langley or Megan Maroney, I feel like they have a certain look and a certain thing and they don't look like anybody else in the business. But, you know, that's something that I have just kind of like a pill that I've swallowed. And I've noticed that when a girl makes it, a girl really makes it because there's so few of us.

I understand that's really interesting. Yeah, it is. Well, have an absolute ball at the Country to Country Music Festival, as I'm sure your fans will as well. That is the Grammy award winning Lainey Wilson Country Music Trailblazer spending some time with us here this morning on Woman's Hour. On weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow, Frankie Bridge, the Saturday star and Loose Women presenter on the reaction she got when she posted on Instagram about going on holiday without her husband and kids. She was called the worst wife and mother. And also how a podcast hopes to recruit women for counter terrorism policing roles at a time of mistrust in police forces by many women across the UK. Monday's program five years on from

the first COVID lockdown we'll be discussing the impact on children born during that time. If you did have a child during the 2020 lockdown how have your kids been affected? Do email us your experience. So hope you have a good weekend and join me tomorrow just after four if you can for Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4 I'm back with a brand new series of History's Secret Heroes. And he tells her that she will be sent to France as a secret agent.

She will work undercover. And if she is caught, she's going to be shot. Join me for more stories of unsung heroes, acts of resistance, deception and courage from World War II. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. What do Bridgerton actor Adjoa Ando, nature presenter Rae Wynn Grant, and TikTok sensation Mama Seabes all have in common? They're all guests on Dear Daughters Stars

from the BBC World Service. I'm Namulanta Kombo, and for the new series of Dear Daughter, I'm welcoming an all-star line-up to share stories of parenting in the spotlight. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts.