Woman's Hour - Courtney Act, Jordan Stephens and Dan Bell discuss 'Toxic Masculinity'

Episode Date: September 30, 2019

Drag queen and ‘Celebrity Big Brother’ winner, Courtney Act, Jordan Stephens from hip hop duo ’Rizzle Kicks’, and Chief Executive of the ‘Men and Boys Coalition’, Dan Bell, discuss what toxic masculinity means to them and the impact of the term itself. How has it affected their mental health, relationships and gender expression and what needs to change for boys of the future? Myths of Celtic Europe pervade our collective consciousness in the UK. Passed on as folklore, by word of mouth and tales around the camp fire, the stories have been continually adapted through history. In her new book, 'Foxfire, Wolfskin and other stories of Shapeshifting Women', Dr Sharon Blackie updates the powerful female characters, bringing together myths of women within the landscapes of north-western Europe, and incorporating the modern pressures of climate change and plastic pollution. Just over thirty percent of UK ambassadors or Head of Mission are women – this is a three- fold increase in the last 10 years but what does the job actually involve? We speak to Judith Gough who has just finished a four year position in Ukraine and is at the start of a new position as UK Ambassador to Sweden. Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Courtney Act Interviewed Guest: Jordan Stephens Interviewed Guest: Dan Bell Interviewed Guest: Sharon Blackie Interviewed Guest: Judith Gough

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast. It's the 30th of September 2019. On the podcast today, a conversation about toxic masculinity. You hear the phrase all the time, what impact does it have on men and boys? Because it's not a particularly positive phrase to put it mildly. Dan Bell and Jordan Stevens and Courtney Act are involved in that conversation today. We also learn about life as the UK ambassador to Sweden in the company of the woman who occupies that position right now. It's

Judith Goff. She's just moved to Stockholm from Kiev. So she's had, to put it mildly, an interesting career change lately. And the author Sharon Blackie is on the programme as well. Her new collection of short stories is called Foxfire, Wolfskin and Other Stories of Shape-Shifting Women. So we started today with a conversation about toxic, difficult to say and probably quite difficult to experience, toxic masculinity. You might well have heard Desert Island Discs on Radio 4 yesterday, and the subject was the firefighter Sabrina Cohen-Hatton.

She was talking about the trauma that firefighters face, how they can really be affected by the things they experience, and frankly, the stuff they see. And she was saying that it's really hard for her male colleagues in particular to seek help. And we do know that in this country, men are three times as likely to die by suicide as women. So there is a real problem here. What do you mean by it? The concept was first talked about back in the 70s and the 80s. And it's now a kind of catch all term for entitled, aggressive, emotionally repressed male behaviour. So we brought together Courtney Act, real name Shane Jenick. He's a drag queen, of course, when he's Courtney. Jordan Stevens from Rizzle Kicks and the chief executive of the Men and Boys Coalition, Dan Bell.

And it's Shane speaking first. I think it's important to first recognise the difference between masculinity and masculine qualities and traits and men and masculine behaviours and toxic masculinity, which are certain behaviours that are performed by all men in society that come from the socialization of certain characteristics. I don't think it can be said there's just a few men who are performing toxic behaviors. I think the idea is that there are these behaviors that men perform that are socialized into us, much like racism in a socialised systemic sense.

There are these things that white people do, they benefit from privilege in certain ways that people of colour do not. I think there are ways in which men aren't necessarily aware of these behaviours that they perform and they are imposed on men really strongly. And I think that it could be a matter of even, dare I say, this concept of toxic masculinity that makes it challenging for men to listen to the term toxic masculinity,

actually listen to what the meaning is behind it. Dan? I do think the term has got a lot of issues. I mean, it is inherently an othering term. It's a shaming term. It has connotation of disgust and you know uncleanliness um and i think that if the intention is to be genuinely kind of having an open and productive conversation i think a term which is so loaded is is at best not useful jordan i'm i worry a little though that i think that our society generally is is quite toxically masculine in that it's not gendered i think that women can also utilise their energy and often do to try and ascend in particularly masculine worlds. But I feel as though there's something I'm not quite getting at with one term

when we've existed in a space where women have been shamed verbally and through law and through many different ways. And it seems as there's there's a kind of issue with one term to describe men in a in a way that could be seen as shamed but what about our responsibility to create like a an equilibrium verbally for other terms to describe everyone else in society and i guess it's not that two wrongs make a right by any means but i think there's certainly a double standard about you know we look at femininity is almost in itself often seen as a dirty word. It's demonised.

And I think that masculinity is seen as a great word. I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. I wonder, Dan, whether you think masculinity cannot be celebrated now. Is that the position you think we might have moved to? I think it's very tricky to celebrate masculinity for sure and I think one of the areas that I have most anxiety about is the impact on young men and boys who are growing up in a conversation which seems to be, the broad message seems to be pretty negative about masculinity and if you bore a young man who in all likelihood won't be fully versed in the nuances of gender politics, they'll be receiving a pretty negative message about what it means to be male. I'm struggling, I think, to understand how you feel they're burdened. If you're being told that your identity is something that is bad and wrong, which seems to be broadly the message.

It's interesting because I feel like that has been the messaging for women for hundreds of years and the tables have finally turned somewhat. And I don't think that we've got the messaging right yet, but I think we're working at getting to that place. And I think in this transition period where we're trying to sort of come to equality, there's a struggle with the fragility of a man's identity where being criticized becomes a complete sort of attack on his identity and he's unable to sort of listen to what's being said and say, OK, rather than react, how can I listen, understand

and also see, you know, the ways in which women have been shamed about their identities for hundreds of years. I just want to bring Jordan back in because you, I think, would it be fair to describe your attitude to women as being rather different now to how it might have been 10 years ago? I mean, yeah, 100%. I've been brought up by a pretty independent, strong mum. My dad wasn't around so much, but he's been in my life.

And looking back at the way in which I spoke and thought about women, I've definitely been conditioned in a way, like my learning was very much a kind of objectification thing kind of seeing sex as you know the kind of apex of something or I don't know just being I'd say led down quite like a basic outlook on men and women and how we interrelate and actually as I got older I got into a new space where I actually felt I was involved in feminism to an extent. And I was in a relationship with a girl who was very up on that. And the irony was that at that point,

I was very good at pointing the finger at other people. But in my own personal space, I was really struggling to open myself up. So you were calling other people out? Yeah. But you hadn't actually changed all that much yourself i was i was really i was a very very difficult boyfriend and i think that i was i wasn't informed or educated or or even given a space to understand how i'm trying to give myself some service here but emotionally violent some of my behaviors would have been in terms of

i had and have quite deep intimacy issues that I'm not saying are as a direct result of toxic masculinity but I definitely think that the way in which I view myself as a boy and man had pushed out certain behaviors or accepted certain behaviors there was no one checking me on that stuff in my immediate friendship circle or and I felt as I was handed down as well like a very complicated relationship with love I'd never seen kind of my mum and dad together and stuff like that and yeah I found it really difficult to deal with and I think that me coming to terms with what I needed to be able to be more open and loving in my immediate circle

it spun me into this world of talking about gender and energies because I would need to be more in touch and intimate with myself and emotional with myself, and that wasn't the message that I was being given by society. I kind of was completely in my head, thought I could think my way out of anything. Do you remember the first time that somebody spoke to you and treated you in a way that you thought was rather different to a young girl of the same age?

Oh, when I was younger. I mean, talk about you were really little young girls and young boys are treated very differently and definitely part of that is societal and it's i think i think yeah if i think for mothers i mean i've done some reading on this stuff i find it really interesting i think for mothers and fathers it's difficult to not fall into the coded behaviors that i had it the other day with one of my closest friends as a child he's about two and like I could almost feel the kind of like wanting to be like a little rougher with him or something because he was just because he's a boy and it I caught myself I didn't really do

anything I didn't but it was there it was just I think it's common knowledge that we do without meaning to you know and a lot of the language I spoke to my dad was football it was like which I love I think football is an incredible sport and language but a lot of the communication wasn't in words desperately needed to have words and feelings and it was just sometimes like oh did you know to do what's to fit you whatever yeah it's one way of communicating um Shane what about you and where did you grow up I grew up in Brisbane Australia in the 80s and now if we're talking hyper masculine yeah Australia is a place that comes into mind yeah and you know what's really grow up? I grew up in Brisbane, Australia in the 80s. Now if we're talking hyper-masculine, Australia is a place that comes into mind. Yeah and you know what's really interesting is I've

lived in the US for eight years. I've lived here now sort of for the last 18 months and I actually think that the UK has got, I won't say a healthy, but out of the three the healthiest relationship with masculinity and femininity and I feel from observations, a lot of that has to do with portrayal of men in the media. And in the UK, you have so many different types of men who are valuable. You've got your Dandy, you've got your Russell Brand, you've got your Harry Styles, you've got, you know, intellects like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Fry. That's something I've always... I mean, when I used to live in the States and something I sort of trotted out on occasion there was how significant it... I thought that Sherlock Holmes was sort of a masculine archetype in the UK.

This is not a tough brute of a man. He's got an incredible intellect. Drug addict, though. No sense to me. That is, that is. But I'm just saying, as a masculine archetype, I think that would be less... You'd be hard-pushed to find find one quite like in America, for example.

And in Australia and growing up, I remember this idea that I was valuable because of my masculinity and I wasn't masculine. And I remember trying to be more masculine and I always loved performing in the arts. And my saving grace was after school, I would go to like a theatre company and every Wednesday afternoon that was the place where I was able to just be myself. And you shone. Yeah there was you know two boys and 60 girls and no one expected me to act a certain way and I was just able to be myself whatever that meant and at, I definitely remember sort of code switching, I suppose, where I felt that I had to conform to an expectation of masculinity. Having that enabled me to sort of get through the sort of code switching of the other side. Dan, I'm not specifically asking about your school days, but people like Shane are a challenge to some men.

Shane's a challenge. Most, okay, most. Well, I mean, I haven't actually, I used to do drag myself, so when I was at school I did. That has come as a surprise to me, I have to be honest. Carry on.

I mean, I've been thinking about this stuff for a very, very long time. Can you describe how you did drag, in what context? Yeah, in a school assembly. It was a part of a fashion show, in what context? Yeah, in a school assembly. It was a part of a fashion show, just a fundraising fashion show. And I just thought, well, you know,

might as well give the bullies their money's worth, right? And so, I mean, I've been thinking about male roles. It was more of like a one-off sort of performative thing rather than like an identity or an ongoing expression of yourself. Yeah, obviously I never went to the level you've gone with it not as fab as you are i'm sure so in context it was early 90s and one of the things i found quite interesting sort of slightly inverted policing of masculinity in the sense in order to be a the message that was in the ether was in order to be a fully rounded decent man you had to be gender bending a little bit that was that was kind of in it it wasn't okay just to be masculine actually i mean i think

that's on the table as i hopefully take it as read i'm you know pretty open-minded about these things so but i think what that led me on my journey to come to understand is and this is sort of bringing us back to toxic masculinity there's a funny sort of inverted policing going on i think where it's another set of rules that are being imposed on what masculinity should and bringing us back to toxic masculinity. There's a funny sort of inverted policing going on, I think, where it's another set of rules that are being imposed on what masculinity should and shouldn't be. And I think I'm really up for the broadest expression of humanity, really. And what I see in toxic masculinity sometimes, or a lot of the time in its expression,

is that it's redefining what the correct way of being a man is. And one of the things that I think is quite interesting about that is often it's framed in actually ironically very traditional terms. So the instance that jumps out at me is the whole masculinity so fragile hashtag. What that's actually saying is if you're a real man, you'd be able to be weak. So it's actually imposing another form of shaming on men for not adhering to another. Not being prepared to be vulnerable. Yeah, so if a real man would be vulnerable,

which is still saying what a real man should and shouldn't be. I mean, that's all quite nuanced and sort of granular. I mean, as Nick Jordan said earlier, women have lived with this forever. I just wrote a little essay called I'm a Pussy, and it's basically talking about there's, I think, quite a deep misogyny in the way we just communicate with each other there's a lot of accepting accepted terms the word pussy bugs me so much because that's men and women shaming each other for being not strong and using a female genitalia to describe

that despite the fact that female genitalia is responsible for for life yeah the Yeah. The more I think about it, I hear these conversations, but, like, this is such a common term, and just imagine having to hear that every single time someone was described as faltering or failing, to have that thrown around, and that's a shaming term used between men all the time. Shane, you identify as... Well, you tell me, but genderqueer is one term, isn't it?

Yeah, genderqueer or genderfluid. To you, what does that mean? At the moment in our society, the sort of concept of gender is quite binary of man and woman. And I grew up, you know, with a penis and with the expectation of being a man. And I remember it always caused me a lot of difficulty and challenge because I never really was particularly masculine. And whatever masculine is, whatever masculine is, well, like, yeah, this concept of masculinity. And I remember because it was so binary, because there was only two choices of being a man or being a woman. And also, I think,

because my vocation doing drag, dressing up in women's clothes, it caused a lot of confusion in my brain. And I thought, oh, I enjoy this femininity. Does that mean that I want to be a woman? Do I want to live as a woman? And I had friends who were trans, you know, who went about medically transitioning, taking hormones, having surgeries and such. And because I do look like a woman when I'm in drag, it sort of also sort of played into that idea. And I remember all through my 20s, really struggling, probably like once or twice a year, it would rear its head, this concept of gender identity. And I thought, oh, I think, am I trans? Do I want to be a woman? And it was through

conversations with my friend Chas Bono, who is a trans man, also happens to be the son of Sonny and Cher. And we were talking about my style of drag and why I did drag. And I told Chas that I did drag because it was a job. I put on women's clothes, just like a police officer would put on uniform and go to work. And he was like, oh, really? This was probably about five years ago. I was about 32. And he asked me if I'd heard of the term gender fluid or genderqueer. And I didn't understand what it meant at the time. And he just described the idea that gender could exist on a spectrum. It could be anywhere from masculine to feminine, anywhere from man to woman. And was really fascinating and I feel almost

daft that I hadn't thought of it myself but just this idea that I didn't have to be a man and I didn't have to be a woman that I could just be me quick word from all of you on possible solutions in the future Jordan I just I want to make clear because I felt like I babbled a little bit when I was talking about relationships is that I think it all encompasses the same idea which is just that I think it's a male responsibility to work on our relationships with pain and our emotional well-being I in myself really struggled to understand that pain is the kind of fluid concept that I can't control or fix instantly and I think that especially in Western society, I think we can just go numbing ourselves or avoiding it when actually it's really necessary to grow.

Quick word from you, Shane. It involves not necessarily prescribing what a man should or shouldn't be, but rather what the individual is or is not. But I think creating a space where men are allowed to possess feminine qualities, where femininity isn't seen as weak or less than, where women aren't seen as weak or less than. Because I think that so many of the issues that we face in the world, we look at the symptoms of the oppression of women or the oppression of people of color or the oppression of anybody. And often a lot of it comes from men. I think the actual, if we look at the actual cause, helping men break down this rigid identity will benefit men and the world and women and society at large. And Dan? I think that the grave social issues of disadvantage that the men and boys we

work with experience are very much about lack of service provision, lack of policy action, lack of political and media concern. And I don't think the best way to solve those issues is to blame them themselves, their own negative toxic masculinity. That was Dan Bell from the Men and Boys Coalition, also involved in that discussion. We had Jordan Stevens from Rizzle Kicks and the drag queen, and in fact the winner of Celebrity Big Brother, Courtney Act, real name Shane Jenneck, talking to us about toxic masculinity and actually the burden it places or masculinity and the burden it can place on men and boys and how it isn't always easy to be them. Any thoughts on that? At BBC Women's Hour on Instagram or Twitter of course or if there's something you'd really want us to talk about on the programme

and you feel it hasn't ever been addressed by Women's Hour or maybe you haven't heard it anywhere else either you can email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash women's hour. Later in the week, in fact I think we're doing this tomorrow how much should you share about your children online?

And we're also going to be hearing from the former editor of Teen Vogue, Elaine Welteroth. She was really interesting, and you'll hear from Elaine on Women's Hour later in the week. Now, Sharon Blackie is here. Good morning to you, Sharon. Good morning. A writer.

Something very mysterious about your new collection of short stories because the subtitle, Other Stories of Shape-Shifting Women, the full title is Foxfire Wolfskin and Other Stories of Shape-Shifting Women. You've got to start with the basics here. What is a shape-shifting woman? Well, shape-shifting can mean lots of things,

but basically it's about transformation. And the collection is about women's ability to transform themselves under seemingly, often seemingly impossible circumstances. And I think that that is one of the things that is inherent in fairy stories. You know, fairy stories have, it's a collection of reimagined fairy tales. And fairy stories have at their heart transformation and our ability to move through seemingly impossible circumstances. Now you are a psychologist by training and trade. Yeah. And a writer in your, what might loosely be called your spare time,

or do you combine both? I kind of combine. I don't practice as a psychotherapist anymore, but the psychology informs my writing and the courses and retreats that I run as the other part of my life, yeah. Okay. Tell us, from a psychological point of view, why do we need these stories? Why have we kept them? Because they've been around just about as long as we have, haven't they?

They have. And I think it is because when I was practicing psychology one-to-one, I found that working with fairy tales and working with this kind of story was the most powerfully transformative method of all. Because fairy stories, because they're full of these really wonderful, magical, very vivid images images and characters they really capture our imagination in a way that lots of other stories don't and they they help us reimagine ourselves um they help us reimagine the story that we think we're living in and they help us reimagine a way out of whatever particular difficulty we might we might think so when you're honestly trying to help somebody in your role as a psychologist,

you would have used a fairy tale or a narrative in some way? Both, yes. I mean, I think very often, you know, there are many fairy stories that are really great analogies for some of the problems that people face. So the red shoes, for example, you know, where she wears the red shoes and she dances and dances and dances

and can't stop dancing until a woodcutter cuts her feet off, literally, is a great analogy, a great metaphor for addiction, for example. And so if you can, things that, and then things that people can't talk about, like abuse, child abuse, that they can't actually name, they can't put into words, if they can see it, that same kind of idea in a fairy tale, then it's very, very much easier for them to work with it. And again, because these stories are supposed to move on, you know, they're supposed to move on out of a particular crisis into some kind of phase of solution. People fall into that solution focused

way of looking at their own situation. Have you always written generally? You've always written? I haven't, no, I didn't actually write my first novel until I was just over 40 because I'd always wanted to be a writer. But I really didn't think that I had anything profound to say until then. And then lots of changes. What changed you? Do you know what it was? I was on about my third midlife crisis and I was living in America and I didn't want to be there. And I decided I was going to learn to fly to overcome a fear of flying.

Right. Okay. As you do. And that was one of the most completely life-changing experiences of my life. And I thought, I can write about that now. I can write about that whole midlife transformation. I can write about looking death literally in the face. And so I wrote a book.

And you can now fly? Yes. I did get my pilot's license. I mean, you just say that blithely as though it could happen to anybody. You've also lived on a croft and now you live in Connemara, a beautiful part of Ireland, but absolutely wild. And I would imagine the perfect location for these imaginings of yours. It is because I think a lot of the time, you know,

the fairy stories and the mythologies that have most traction come out of the land. You know, they come out of places. And what I love about our native mythology particularly, and I say that for the British Isles and Ireland and for the western fringes of Europe, is they have this wonderful ability to portray women as both very powerful and as also heavily associated with the land, representing the land and meshed with the land,

inextricable from the land. And it seems to me that in these times of both social and environmental crisis, that's a really important message for women to take. And these women at the very centre of your stories, these stories, with all the power, that actually is quite a challenge, isn't it, to patriarchal societies? Ireland certainly is one of those. It for sure is. But one of the things I love about going back to these old stories

is they show a world where women did actually have a lot more power. And yes, indeed, it was Christianity. It was the patriarchal religions moving in that took a lot of that away. But I find it very comforting to know that sometime in the past, women were viewed differently. You know, we don't have to start completely from scratch. When we go back to these old stories, I think that there are many aspects of ourselves that we can find and lots of inspiration for being in the world, literally being in the world in a different way. I want you to tell us a little bit about one of the stories in the book, The Bog Man's Wife. Now, I read this and it took me to a place I didn't expect to go, I've got to be honest. So, well, initially we start with a

trout, an innocent trout, just swimming in a stream. And then what? And then she is caught by the bog man. And when the bog man catches her, he thinks he's probably fishing for his tea. All of her scales fall off and she becomes a woman, a fish woman. It's that whole shape-shifting animal, human, backwards and forwards aspect. And so he takes her home

and she's not quite what he expects. Well, then what happens? You want me to tell you the whole story? I think it gives people an indication of just what these stories are like. Well, to me, what I was trying to do in this story to make it clear and quick is I was trying to think, okay, well, we always think of what would it be to be an animal, but what would it be for an animal to be a human and to be transformed into, you know, located in a human world that is very, very foreign to them?

And so, you know, she ends up in a fairly patriarchal society with a very joyless church that he attends. And then he has an affair with a woman because he doesn't find her entirely satisfactory and because she's a fish, she can't bear him children. So the woman ends up pregnant. One day he comes home with a trout, which he throws on the kitchen table and says, we're going to have that for our tea. And then at the end of the story, do you really want me to tell the end?

No, the old trout takes her revenge. Is that where the expression old trout comes from? I don't think so. I don't actually know any fairy stories about shape shifting trout. So that's the only one in the collection I think I actually made up. That's quite a confession that actually. And you mentioned climate change and the Snow Queen is a story that it does. It's all about the landscape and the impact of climate change. That's obviously in your very much in your mind and in your thoughts as well. Very much in my mind. And again, it goes back to this idea that women were guardians and protectors of the land in oral mythology, very clearly, very vividly so. And I thought to myself, a lot of the inspiration behind these stories was to say, OK, if we looked at these stories today, if these characters appeared in our lives today, what would they mean now?

You know, the Snow Queen meant something different to Hans Christian Andersen. But in a world of global warming, a Snow Queen might actually be a positive thing. It might be a good thing. Ambiguous, perhaps. But nevertheless, she would have something different to teach us. Sharon, thank you very much. That's the writer, Sharon Blackie. And if you're feeling like escape at the moment, and I think quite a few people are,

her collection of short stories will take you to very definitely another place. Sharon, thank you very much. Thank you. Now, just over 30% of Britain's ambassadors or heads of mission are women, but that is actually good. It's a threefold increase in the last decade. And in fact, three of the four British ambassadors hosting Prince Harry on his African tour are female. Judith Goff isn't in Africa. She is now our woman in Stockholm. She's the British ambassador to Sweden. She's just completed a four-year stint in Ukraine. She left Kiev in

August before the controversy surrounding impeachment proceedings against President Trump. Here is Judith Goff explaining the role of an ambassador. My role is to represent the United Kingdom in any given country. In some ways, I tend to think of that as being the eyes and ears of my country in terms of understanding the environment in which I find myself and in which I get to represent the United Kingdom and translating that for London so that I can inform policymaking and the policy decisions can then be taken. Also to be the mouth of the UK and to promote the UK and what the UK stands for and help people to understand in that country. Your new posting, which is to Stockholm in Sweden, and you're busy learning the language.

How is that going? This is, I would say, probably the seventh or eighth language I have learned. That doesn't mean to say I can speak them all fluently. They're all in various states of disrepair. I find the older I get, the more of a challenge it is to learn a new language. But for me in particular, it's important to be able to speak Swedish in Stockholm. So I'm on my seventh or eighth lesson and hope that in a couple of months, I'll get to the point where I can use it for my role as I started here. So something like pass me that plate of pickled herring, would that currently defeat you? Or could you give us an idea of how you'd say that? I haven't yet learned pickle. Well, I do

know what pickled herring is, but I'm not sure I could put the full sentence together. We've just been talking this morning about animals and their personalities. I'm not sure I'm going to use that in my job. But you have to start somewhere. I think my conversations are going to be much more around what's going on politically in the UK and relations between our two countries, but you never know. So we've established that your new role is Stockholm. And where have you just been? Somewhere very, very different. So my last posting was in Ukraine, where I've just spent the past four years in a very different environment to what I now find in Sweden. And does it work that way? I mean, I'm looking at this from the point of view of an outsider,

that you might get a tough posting, and then you do well in that, and you get the reward of, and look, I'm an outsider, but a relatively, dare I say, cushy role as the ambassador to Sweden. It's very much self-determined by the officer when the ambassadorships or heads of mission come up, the high commissioners, governors as well. They're advertised on the intranet and you apply. So you determine a lot of it yourself. I think obviously if you have done a tough posting,

there is sympathy amongst colleagues sometimes that it would be nice for a different type of role or a different pace for an officer. But also, I think, to develop that officer as well, to do something different. I have just spent the last 10 years or so dealing with the post-Soviet space, hard security, conflict. It is time for a little bit of a change. Just to remind everybody of the quite delicate, actually, situation in Ukraine. Ukraine in 2014 went through what we called at the time the Ukraine crisis, where following a summit in Vilnius and the president not signing an agreement with the EU,

protests started in the capital. These were rather mishandled by President Yanukovych at the time. And as a result, over 100 people were killed in Kiev. He fled the country, went to Russia. And Russia swiftly followed with the annexation of Crimea and the fermenting of a conflict in eastern Ukraine. And so what we had during my posting was a country that was desperately trying to reform and build a prosperous state with strong institutions,

but all the time whilst fighting a conflict with its larger neighbour. Which is still going on? Still going on today. Sadly, more than 13,000 people killed. When I've travelled to the conflict zones myself and seen it firsthand, it is incredibly shocking to see what is happening, and particularly as it's the 21st century in Europe. And it happens to be a country where, Ukraine I'm talking about,

where homophobia is an ongoing issue issue and you are a gay woman. Did that concern you when you got that posting? I don't think any of my postings until this point have been in countries where it is easy to be gay. I think this is the first time that I have had the luxury to relax in a way that perhaps I haven't been able to before. The fact is that when you are the ambassador, that role and that status does provide you with a degree of protection, if you like. But obviously, it's something you weigh up very, very carefully, not merely because I'm going to be working there and I want to be able to do my job without let or hindrance, but because I'm taking my family with me and I don't want them to suffer. But what I have typically found in the postings that I have chosen is that the reaction to me personally and to my family has been on the whole positive, a few incidents every now and again, but not hugely challenging and perhaps in the way

that people perceive. Obviously, it's very, very different for those who are, for example, Ukrainian and outside of that bubble who have to deal with homophobia and difficulty on a daily basis. Yes, I wonder what kind of personal responsibility you felt. I suppose a female ambassador sent by Britain to a country like Ukraine might be expected to care particularly about the rights of women, for example. Were you made to feel a special responsibility to help gay people in Ukraine? I've always been very, very clear I am not Britain's gay or female ambassador to anywhere. I'm an ambassador or a diplomat who happens to be female and happens to be gay. And I think that's an important distinction because otherwise it can define you too narrowly.

I was very clear when I went to Ukraine in 2015 at the height of the conflict that my main priority was to deal with the conflict and try and support a peaceful outcome and a rebuilding of that country. But obviously, you do feel a particular responsibility and sympathy for certain communities, for other women, for the LGBT community. But that has to fit within a broader spectrum of priorities necessarily. But just by being you and being there with your partner and your children, that was a statement in itself, wasn't it, actually? I think so. And I had a number of people say to me, you're the first gay person I've ever met. And I thought, well, I can assure you, I'm not. You're wrong there. It's just that I am

the first gay person that you are aware of having met. And often that has been followed up with a comment, well, you're quite normal, really, at which point you think, well, that's kind of a compliment. But I think it's about in countries where there are no visible role models, in countries where there is not a discussion of the issues, just by being there and being yourself quite quietly, that in itself can help people to understand what the issues are and to come to understand that it is not a threat or risk in a way perhaps that they thought it might have been. A lot of people, Judith, will have listened to you and will have thought, yes, she sounds the type. And I mean this,

are you the type? I think most people tend to think of a diplomat as being of a certain gender and of a certain age and a certain background. I know I sound very home countess and I was brought up in Buckinghamshire, but I don't think I am that type. In fact, that was one of the reasons why I hesitated to join the Foreign Office way back in the mid-90s when I was looking at what I should do after leaving university, precisely because I thought I wasn't the type. And I held back for six years. Did a specific person put you off or it was just the image, was it? I think it was partly the image. I had discussed with people the idea of joining the Foreign Office.

Back then, my understanding was that you had to have really attended a certain university and have a certain background. Well, that was true back in the day, wasn't it? It was true back in the day. But I think, you know, here was I, one of the first people in my family to ever go to university. My father left school with one CSE and was a printer, and my mother worked at the local benefits office. I wasn't convinced that a diplomatic career was for the likes of me. And I think secondly, when I looked at it at the time, there were only three female heads of mission at the time when I was considering joining the Foreign Office,

and the bar on homosexuality had only been lifted a couple of years before. So I wasn't convinced that this was going to be the most welcoming or easiest environments for somebody like me to work in. Yes. I don't think I fit the vision. But fast forward to 2018, I think the situation is now very different. What about the Kim Darroch situation? This was for the rest of us, really. It was a window onto this world about which we don't know a great deal. He resigned as UK ambassador to the States after these leaked emails that were really critical of

President Trump's administration. What would you say about that? I'm very limited in what I can say about that, not least as things are still playing out there. I mean, I think I'll say two things. One is that Kim is a very well-respected colleague and a very well-liked colleague. And that secondly, the role of a diplomat is to tell it as one sees it. And that's the role. Has his replacement been appointed yet? Not that I the role. Has his replacement been appointed yet? Not that I'm aware. No, I mean, there is the incredible Karen Pearce, isn't it, at the UN, is that right? Yes, there is the incredible Karen Pearce, but whether she has a job or somebody else, I couldn't tell you.

Pearce is another person who doesn't look like she might be Britain's ambassador to the United Nations. And I mean that in a very good way. She's a striking person. I think she looks the part entirely, actually. Karen was one of my very first bosses when I joined the office. And I think she was one of the people that inspired me that actually, as a woman, you can go far in the foreign office. And I think part of the attraction of people like Karen is you can do it your way. and you don't have to fit a particular stereotype. Sexuality is completely irrelevant here actually. You need a supportive family unit, don't you? Somebody who will be prepared to be with you, travel with you and bring the children along as well. It's very difficult to do if your family aren't behind you 100%. I mean at the end of the

day we change our roles every three or four years on average. And it's not just a change of job and a change of commute. We're changing where we live. We're changing schools, we're changing potentially jobs or impacting the careers of our partners. So it does require an awful lot of understanding. And I think your son in particular was very happy in Ukraine, wasn't he? He was when I sort of said to him that we were leaving and going to Stockholm, he wasn't that impressed. And it was only when we came to Stockholm on a recce visit and we went to the local wildlife park and he said, Mummy, they've got wolves and elk. I think I can come. And has your partner been able to carry on her career?

She has. She's a civil engineer. She worked remotely. She didn't come with me to Georgia. She stayed behind that time because that was what was the better option. That was before you went to Ukraine when I was ambassador to Georgia. She came with me to Kiev and is with me in Stockholm and has been working remotely. That requires a very understanding employer. It is not always easy. That can be quite a lonely experience setting up a bedroom at home as an office, particularly in environments where the internet may not always work and where there are security challenges. But that's what she's done. And so far, that has worked. But I'm extremely grateful for her forbearance with all of it.

Yeah, no, I'm sure. And the entertaining side of it. It's a long day yours, isn't it, actually? I assume sometimes the clock turns to about six o'clock and all you want to do is go home. But in fact, you have to attend a meeting of the Anglo-Swedish Elk Protection Agency or whatever it might be. Is it tough, the entertaining and hospitality and just being pleasant side of things? It can be very tiring. It is very much part of the job. Certainly in Kiev, we could have two or three functions a night. The idea that you stand around with a pink gin in your hand and eating certain chocolates that we shan't name,

or you won't want me to name, I think is not accurate. A lot of these receptions and dinners, you can sort out some serious stuff at them and you can bring people together that might not otherwise talk. Can you think of an example where you as a female ambassador made a in conflict and hard security, where a lot of the people around the table, if not all of them, will be men, being a woman does stick out. And I think that sometimes gives you an opportunity to speak more, engage more, people are curious. But I think also, I find particularly going to conflict zones, being able to engage as a woman can be very helpful.

It's less threatening sometimes, I think, for people. And particularly when you're dealing, as we were, in eastern Ukraine with victims of gender-based violence. Unfortunately, in a post-conflict situation, we know that it is often women that suffer. And we had a very large project for UNFPA, where we have helped about 60,000 women access help or support or shelter. And I think as a woman, that's 60,000 women. Yes, I think it's about 58,000 Ukrainian women who through a project that we fund in eastern Ukraine have been able to access support, advice, shelter and health care. And this is particularly for women who have escaped the conflict,

but are suffering from gender based violence or consequences of conflict. And I think sometimes as a woman, you are able to see those opportunities and to support and champion those opportunities. But also when I have visited women's refuges, as a woman, I think sometimes you have better access and a better ability to engage and understand the problems. That's not to say that our male colleagues can't, of course. But when you're dealing in these situations, I think it's really important, particularly when you have a conflict. Conflict resolution does need women to participate as well. And that historically has not always been the case.

So to any young woman listening who thinks, you know what, yes, I've really, this woman sounds fantastic. I want to be her. What do they need? The key qualities for me are you need to be curious. You need to be curious about the world and curious about life and never want to stop learning. At the age of 46, I've come to a new country and I'm now spending a lot of time learning about it. So I think that's really important. I think it's helpful to have an interest in foreign policy and world events. I think you need to have personal resilience. Sometimes what we're dealing with is very, very difficult when you're dealing with conflict, particularly difficult consular cases, crises, terrorist attacks, body bags.

Some of the work can be very, very tough. So I think it does require personal resilience and just a sense of adventure. That's the brilliant Judith Goff, who's Britain's ambassador to Sweden. Now to your thoughts on the programme today. Sabina says, I object to the demonisation of men. These days they're censored for everything. An innocent compliment or an offer of help can land them in real trouble. Why can't we remember as women how we felt when we were treated this way? I think expressions like toxic masculinity are awful. John says the phrase makes me wince. Of course, there are guys out there with toxic characters, but I think the phrase is overused and it doesn't seem to have a concrete definition no i think that's

true john i tried to research the origin of the phrase and it was almost impossible to find out where it comes from and ruth says am i imagining this or do the men on the toxic masculinity item keep talking over each other and interrupting each other uh-oh well i was in the room um did they i don't know whether they did any more than enthusiastic female contributors would, to be fair, but maybe you heard it differently. Catherine says, Dear Jane, I was interested in that conversation this morning. My son is nine years old and has long hair. He's a drummer who embraces that archetype. I've been fascinated watching how women and men don't know how to treat him.

They think he's a girl because of his hair and automatically extend a great deal of gentleness and empathy and kindness. They don't do that so readily when they think he's a boy. My older son has got short hair. He was always treated as a boy. Strangers refer to him as tiger, mate or buddy and expect him to be more grown up, braver and more responsible than they ever expected my daughter to be at a similar age

or indeed my younger son with his long locks. It does seem inherent in us to treat small girls and small boys differently. That was pretty much what I said actually. I think I implied that in one of my questions. But it's interesting you've experienced exactly that with your children and jeremy says toxic masculinity it's insulting and wounding and i don't like the phrase being bandied around i'll add it to the lexicon of anti-male terminology that i've been introduced to by listening to woman's hour if you're going to have an entire programme devoted to this,

have you considered doing one on toxic feminism? There seems to be plenty of that around. There we go, there's Jeremy, a satisfied customer of the Woman's Hour brand. And Maeve was listening to the conversation with Sharon Blackie. She says, I enjoyed Sharon. I grew up in Ireland and continue to regularly visit Connemara in particular, actually. My now 32-year experience of living in the UK, much of it in the shires, coupled

with looking at the attitudes and behaviour of the current executive government team, reinforces to me that Ireland is actually a matriarchy, and it always was. I can't imagine any Irish Prime Minister telling a female member of the House to calm down dear. Well that was David Cameron of course wasn't it? Old prejudices and perceptions of Ireland are reinvigorated by the existing political climate or did they just never go away? Maeve thank you for that. I think it was me actually that suggested that Ireland was a patriarchy. So I apologise if you don't actually think it continues to be so or perhaps ever was in the same way as Britain may be accused these days of being. This sentence will end at some point. I'm not quite sure when. We should say we did have one tweet from a listener saying, where is the item about the conference in Manchester? Because you had a right old go at Labour last week.

Well, the item about Labour was actually on Tuesday and tomorrow, which is also Tuesday, we are indeed going to have a go, in a balanced sense, at the Conservative Party conference, which is happening in Salford right now. So that's on Woman's Hour tomorrow. Thanks for listening today. Lauren O'Byrne here, and I'm calling all music lovers

and in particular Radiohead fans because on Desert Island Discs I'm casting away Tom York. He talks to me about how he discovered music, his love of breaking things, what he felt about his posh school and how he greeted the band's initial success. He also shares the life advice REM's Michael

Stipe gave him and describes his personal ambitions for the future. And of course he'll be explaining the reasons why he has chosen each of the eight sensational tracks he wants to take to the desert island. Do not miss it. Search for Desert Island Discs Tom York in BBC Sounds and subscribe. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.