Woman's Hour - Covid-19 and eating disorders. Nicole Taylor, writer of the drama The Nest. Plus celebrating Passover under lockdown.

Episode Date: April 9, 2020

The UK’s leading charity supporting those affected by eating disorders BEAT estimates that around 1.25 million people in the UK have an eating disorder. They’ve seen a 30% increase for demands in services in light of the Coronavirus. With so much emphasis on food shortages and stockpiling, how are those with eating disorders going to be affected ? Listener Amy Nguyen is an Anorexia survivor, Megan Jayne Crabbe a mental health and lifestyle blogger and Jess Griffiths is one of BEAT’s Clinical Associate Trainers.Covid-19 has also seen a high level of anxiety among pregnant women. Jo Mountfield Vice President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and a consultant obstetrician at University Hospital Southampton explains what maternity services might look like and why mums to be should still seek help if they’re concerned. When the first world war broke out the suffragettes suspended their campaign for Votes for Women to join the war effort. Pioneering couple Louisa Garrett Anderson and Flora Murray moved to France and set up two small military hospitals with a staff of volunteers. It was so successful the War Ministry asked them to return to London and establish one there. Wendy Moore’s book Endell Street is about the lives of the pioneering couple and the remarkable women who worked with them. Writer Nicole Taylor talks about her new BBC Drama ‘The Nest’. And in today's Woman's Hour Corona Diary we hear from Rachel Snow-Miller about what it's like celebrating Passover under lockdown .Presenter Jenni Murray Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Wendy Moore Guest; Nicole Taylor Guest; Amy Nguyen Guest; Megan Jayne Crabbe Guest; Jess Griffiths Guest; Rachel Snow-Miller

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Thursday 9th April 2020. Good morning. In the First World War, a group of women set up a military hospital in London's West End and ran it with female surgeons, doctors and nurses. Who were the women of Endell Street. Food has become a central obsession for all of us in this current crisis but as most of us worry about shortages and stockpiling, what's the impact on people who suffer from eating disorders? The Nest is the current Sunday night serial on BBC One.

As life becomes ever more complicated for the couple desperate for a child and their surrogate, what prompted the writer, Nicole Taylor, to explore the ethics of the subject? And as the Jewish community celebrates a rather unusual Passover, Rachel is the subject of today's Woman's Hour Corona Diary. How is she managing when she can't have her wider family and friends to join her?

And the synagogue is shut. Now, it's not surprising that women who are pregnant have been getting in touch with us and telling us how worried they are about getting the care they need during pregnancy when hospitals are so busy with COVID-19. with us and telling us how worried they are about getting the care they need during pregnancy when hospitals are so busy with COVID-19. And then of course there's giving birth. What will be available for them when the time to deliver comes? Well Jo Mountfield is Vice President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and she's a Consultant Obstetrician at University Hospital Southampton. Jo, good morning.

Morning. I know you've been on the ward this morning. How did things go last night? Well, we've had about our usual 19 babies in the last 24 hours here in Southampton. And I've already seen a number of happy mums and babies this morning. So, yes, in some respects, it feels like business as usual, but clearly we're in very worrying times for people. But it's still to have that joy is a great thing.

But how does the atmosphere differ from usual for both the patients and the staff? Well, clearly it's not normal because the staff are obviously having to wear personal protective equipment, masks and visorsors and more than that in certain circumstances. And so for them, it feels very strange. For all of us, it feels very strange. And for the women, obviously, coming into a situation with the staff wearing these outfits that would not normally be the case for their birth. And when they need to come into the hospital, it does feel difficult and, you know, communicate. We have to be really clear with our communication because that obviously is not so easy either between mums and professionals

and also between staff. So that's a really important part of it. Let me put some of the worries that we've heard about to you. Number one, can partners be present at delivery? Absolutely. That is really clear in the national guidance from our own college and the RCM. We're absolutely committed to making sure

that birth partners can be at the birth with their partners because we know how important it is for women who are anxious at this time anyway and the support during labour and birth is really, really important. So yes, we've not heard of any units at the moment who are stopping partners coming in and we've made it really clear that that shouldn't be happening. We should be supporting women to have partners with them. What's the position on pain relief and epidurals

if anaesthetists are maybe busy elsewhere? We are still supporting that service as well. So again, all the hospitals throughout the UK and certainly within my own have a dedicated support for anaesthetists to support women in labour and on labour ward. It is a priority. We are a core service and those facilities should still be available for women who want to have an epidural. So that is a priority.

We're not pulling all the anaesthetists away to look after other patients with COVID and other problems. It's a priority to maintain that service. What about women who want the least intervention possible? How can they be reassured that their birth plan will be followed? So we're committed to giving women choices as far as you can. Because again, that's really important to make people feel secure. So there's really important to make people feel secure. So there's really clear guidance again nationally about how with different levels of staffing

and whether you've got an availability of an ambulance service as to what services you can offer within your own area. Within my own service, we are still offering a home birth service. We have still got a midwifery led unit that remains open and then obviously there is the option of the delivery suite the labor ward for those women

who are at higher risk but for those women who want to opt for a low low risk environment even where the staffing is really difficult in organizations even where the ambulances are not able to support that. Even within a labour ward environment, we know that actually what trusts are doing is having an area of that which is for midwifery-led and low-intervention women who want to opt for that

rather than having them all mixed up together in a setting with the high-risk and the low-risk women together. So there is a way of facilitating women who absolutely want to have a low-risk birth environment to do that, even within the constraints of the service at the moment. It won't be perfect, but people are doing absolutely all that they can to maintain those services and those choices for women. What support is available for breastfeeding in the hospital? So in the hospital, we have obviously the staff are still there looking after women.

They are providing the breastfeeding support that has always been there whilst women are in the hospital. But what we do know is that women are going home probably quicker than they would have done so previously. And so certainly within my own organisation and with many others, we are providing more in terms of telephone support, helplines. There is a lot more information out there online and also making sure that fathers are aware of the advice as well. So that when women do go home, there is still a mechanism to support them. But the support in hospital is the same as it will be other than, of course, we are not getting a lot of women together in a room, which we've done in the past

to provide social support as well. That's not happening. It's on an individual basis, obviously because of the transmission risks. And just briefly, Jo, I know pregnant women have been warned of the possible risks of COVID-19. How concerned should they be about coming in for scans or checkups when they're pregnant? No, what I would say to you, it's really, really important that women come for their antenatal care. Absolutely crucial. And we want

to encourage them to do so. As I hope the messages have been heard loud and clear the vast majority of women who contract the Covid virus will have a mild or moderate form of the illness and will not be seriously unwell. We are doing everything in our power within the services to reduce the risks of transmission, which is why partners are not being invited to come into these sorts of antenatal appointments. And so we want to really encourage women, please do not miss your face-to-face antenatal appointments. Please do not miss your scan appointments because that care is crucial and we want to keep you and your baby safe. Jo Mountfield, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. Now you may remember just before Christmas we spoke to a woman who was expecting a baby and had got in touch with us

because she has anxiety and autism. She was worried about how she would cope with giving birth to her child because she finds it hard to be touched and has a fear of what she described as sensory overload. She wanted to discuss some of her worries because it's a subject that's very rarely talked about. Well, she's now let us know that she had her baby on the 30th of March, just at the start of the coronavirus lockdown. We haven't used her name at her request, but I spoke to her earlier this morning and asked her, how did it go? So we were really lucky. everything going on it actually went smoothly we had a really positive experience we had such a detailed birth plan to deal with the sort of

autism side of things we we spent months making just the most incredibly detailed plan that included a c-section and my parents my siblings my partner places to wait outside the hospital if I needed to get out, recovery after. We had a midwife that we were really close to. In the five days leading up to the birth, it was almost like every day we lost one thing from the plan. So obviously the cafes closed, then my siblings weren't allowed to be involved, then my parents weren't allowed to be involved, and our midwife had to self-isolate. And then we were told we were going to 100% have our own room and then it sort of dropped down to 80, then to 40%. So everything felt quite chaotic going into it. But actually,

when we got in, we were just so lucky with the attitude of the midwives that they managed to sort of negotiate all these problems and find ways around them. But how in the stage coming up to it as things were starting to change and we started to know more and more about the coronavirus, how did that affect your anxiety? To be honest, I think I would have been hugely anxious anyway. So I think it changed the topic of my anxiety slightly, but I don't think it gave me additional anxiety.

I think I would have found something to be anxious about regardless. So what happened once things really got going and you were in the hospital? I think there was three things that were really helpful for us. First of all, our midwife was amazing. So even though she was self-isolating, she was phoning the maternity unit the night before and on the day of our C-section to check that everyone knew that we were there and the details about us. And she sent a colleague in to keep an eye on us as well, who she had a friendship with, which was amazing. And the second thing that was great is that despite all the staff shortages and I mean, the hospital was empty, everyone was wearing face masks, there were security guards on the door, there was quite a sort of rushed atmosphere. But despite this, everyone, all the doctors and midwives we came into contact with took us really

seriously. And they took the time to stop and listen, and didn't dismiss the sort of issues that we were having. And then lastly, I think that I was just really overwhelmed by how open everyone was to creating sort of new pathways. We weren't just pushed into a generic plan B. So they did actually manage to get us a private room in the end. And they told my partner that if he and I both rigorously self-isolated for two weeks before the C-section, he would be allowed in the room. He wouldn't be allowed to leave it, but he was allowed in with me which really really made a huge difference and there you are now with your daughter in your arms yeah absolutely yeah sleeping how's it going now you're out of hospital are you getting the support you need now yeah we're getting a lot of phone calls so we we didn't

have the second day visit but we we did get a five of phone calls so we we didn't have the second day visit but we we did get a five-day visit from a midwife to do the blood tests and to weigh her and we're getting I think one visit from the health visitor later this week other than that it's phone calls but there have been quite a few phone calls and there's sort of a number we can call if we do have questions so it's been slightly different this is this is our first child as well so in a way for us we don't know any different to this, which I think probably helps. How is your daughter doing and how helpful is your partner being? My partner's being great. He's being really, really good and doing some of the nights with her and stuff. And she's very sweet. She's not too much trouble. Yeah, I think she's sort of pretty average from comparing to friends' babies in terms of crying and sleeping and stuff. She's not a horror or anything.

And how are you coping with the responsibility of being a mother? As long as I don't leave the house, I feel fine. I get very anxious. I mean, I've been actually told this happens to all new parents when they leave the house, regardless of pandemics or not. But I get very anxious leaving the house with her, particularly when it's a sunny day and there's a lot of people around. So that's been really hard. But in the house, it's actually been okay. I mean, we had nothing else to really concentrate on, which I think, again, is sort of frustrating and slightly boring because we chose to stay in London to have all that London has to offer sort of available. But we've just been in the house with her so she's been our total focus and you're very happy as a family yeah you know we are I think you know we'd prefer everything was was open and we could get out but I think we just

also feel really lucky and so relieved that she's here and she's okay and we're okay you know there's such a sort of worry about all of that going into the birth that at the moment because we're okay. You know, there's such a sort of worry about all of that going into the birth that at the moment, because we're only, she's only nine days old. So just the relief that she's okay is sort of taking over a lot of other things. And wasn't it lovely to hear just a little gurgle from the baby. Now, when the First World War broke out, the suffragettes and suffragists suspended their campaign for votes for women to join the war effort. A couple of doctors, Louisa Garrett-Anderson, the daughter of Elizabeth Garrett-Anderson, the first to qualify as a woman, and her friend Flora Murray,

went to France and set up two small military hospitals with a staff of volunteers, surgeons, medics and nurses, who were all female. They were so successful they were asked to return to London by the War Ministry to set up a new military hospital in the West End. Wendy Moore is the author of Endell Street. Wendy, this was not an easy period for women to qualify as doctors. How did Louisa and Flora get their qualifications? Well, good morning. No, indeed. Louisa's mother, as you mentioned, Elizabeth

Garrett Anderson, she had already won the right for women to become doctors. So women had broken that taboo. They were allowed to qualify as doctors. But it was extremely difficult to get posts in any senior positions. So most mainstream hospitals effectively barred women. They were not appointed to general hospital posts. They were not generally allowed to become surgeons. So they were more or less confined to treating women and children only. How did they fund and staff the first hospital in Paris

where all the staff were women including the surgeon um they were quite formidable women they'd had um experience in the suffragette movement um they'd both um been active in the suffragette movement flora murray was uh mrs pankhurst dr louisa had been to prison for breaking a window so they they had connections, they had great organisational skills. They raised £2,000 from their friends within a couple of weeks of the war breaking out and they recruited other women doctors and nurses and orderers and then they were off to Paris within six weeks of the war. What was the reaction of the soldiers they were treating who had probably never seen a woman in that kind of position before? Well, exactly. It was taboo for women doctors to treat men. So these men had no experience before of being treated by women doctors.

So I think it came as a big shock to them at first. There are mentions of some of the men actually feeling that they'd been deemed a hopeless case because they'd been sent to a women's hospital. But they very quickly came round. They very quickly realised that the women doctors were every bit as good as male doctors. And they also grew to like the hospital more so than a mainstream military hospital, because Endell Street in particular was renowned for its homely atmosphere. There were colourful wards with lots of decorations, lots of fresh flowers and lots of entertainments to keep them going. Now, obviously, they impressed the top brass.

How significant was the order to come back to London and set up Endell Street? It was completely unprecedented. When the women had first set up their hospital in Paris, army officials came to see them and they were very sceptical. They didn't really believe women doctors were any good, but they were quickly converted. So they became some of the strongest allies of Flora and Louisa. And they passed on the message to the army's top doctor, Sir Alfred Keogh. So Keogh

then invited Flora and Murray to run a 500-bed hospital at Endell Street in the heart of London. But it was seen as a huge gamble. He had been told, his colleagues had tried to dissuade him from it. He had been told that it would fail. Most of the army believed that the hospital would not last six months. What did the press make of a military hospital run by women, which seemed to be rather successful? Initially, they too were treated as a bit of a novelty uh a bit of a sort of um they were kind of frivolous articles about these the hospital manned by women and the lady doctors there um so they were treated as a curiosity to begin with but again the the mood changed quite quickly and um the you know the uh newspapers universally then praised the hospital and it was really held up as an example of the blighty spirit, the fighting spirit throughout the war.

What impact would you say their work had on the prospect of women's equality? Keogh, who invited them initially to set up the hospital, he later said that they had done more for the cause of women than anything else during the war. So women did get the vote at the end of the war and this was seen as one of the key reasons for that. Now they had to cope with the what's known as the Spanish flu after the war how did they manage with that? Well that was really their darkest time so they had stayed open throughout the war treating horrific wounds men with terrible diseases and with shell shock, but they had kept going because they were working together, fighting a common enemy. And then at the end of the war, peace came, but the Spanish flu came in its second wave, the most deadly wave. And that was their absolute lowest point because now there were more men falling ill than before, more deaths than they'd had

per month than during the whole war. And it was affecting the staff too. So they had deaths of men, but also at least four of the staff died of the flu. Now, when the hospital closed in 1919, what happened to the women doctors and surgeons who'd run it well it actually closed 1920 so it's some 100 years ago because it had stayed open for a year after the war it was one of the last military hospitals to close in london but when it closed everything went back to exactly as it had been before the war. So those women doctors who had all that experience they'd gained, they'd been renowned as great surgeons and pioneered new antiseptic methods, they were then sent back to treating women and children.

So most of the doctors, they either did that or they retired. Wendy Moore, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. And I'll just mention again, the title of the book is, of course, Endell Street. Thank you. Now, still to come in today's programme, BBC One's Sunday night serial is The Nest, concerned with infertility and surrogacy. What inspired the writer, Nicole Taylor, to explore the ethics around the subject. And the next in our Woman's Hour Corona Diaries, how is Rachel coping with Passover when she can't have her wider family around her? Now, I think we've all begun to worry about food as the coronavirus has taken such a

hold. There are shortages, long queues at the supermarkets and farmers are increasingly concerned about milk and being able to grow and harvest their crops. So what's it like for people who have eating disorders when food becomes such an obsession? Well the eating disorder charity BEAT has seen a 30% increase in demands for their services since the virus began. What will be the impact on sufferers as the lockdown continues? Well, I'm joined by Jess Griffiths, who is one of BEAT's clinical associate trainers, Megan-Jane Crabb, who's known as the body positive panda, and Amy Nowen, who's recovering from anorexia. Amy, what's been your experience of anorexia? Good morning.

My experience has been something that's really come to fruition perhaps in the last two years, a culmination of control and a way to kind of exercise that, whether it's also through exercise and lots of different food things as well it's it culminated about a year ago where I should have really been an inpatient but the last year's kind of been characterized by hospital appointments doctor's appointments and having to leave my full-time job and to properly begin the process of healing my body and mind and recovery, which is going well.

Megan, what's your experience of it? So I was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa when I was 14 years old. And that came after kind of the majority of my young life being obsessed with thinness, starting to diet very young and also having these tendencies of perfectionism and the need for control when, you know, life changes a lot during that period. And for me, it resulted in a couple of years of battling against it, of hospitalization. That doesn't happen for everyone. It did for me. And coming back out still not really understanding it, not really understanding the root of it or why I was so convinced that hitting a particular number was going to solve everything and make everything feel manageable and OK.

And that still carried on until I found the body positive community several years later. Now, Jess, what are you witnessing at BEAT of the impact of the virus on people like Amy and Megan? Morning Jenny yes we're finding that we've got a lot of people making contact with us on the helpline and through our online groups we've actually had a 30% increase in contacts over this time. I guess some of the NHS services are very much scaled down. So the community services, a lot of them have closed and are only doing kind of attend anywhere appointments over the phone. But I guess the day programmes because of infection control, a lot of those have reduced as well. So people are feeling really scared in terms of not being able to exercise as much, not be able to get hold of maybe their safe foods that they normally rely on to formulate their meal plans.

And, you know, eating disorders thrive off of uncertainty and a lack of control. And so people are really struggling. Amy, what effect would you say the current climate is having on your recovery? For me personally it's affecting the way that I see the future just in terms of you know I love to exercise I love to see my friends and that's been really helpful as a coping mechanism in my recovery and during this time obviously I'm surrounded by like my loving family which is fantastic however traditional coping mechanisms I would use to really elevate my position and kind of get back to where I need

to be in life are kind of you know have been really thrown off track so it's kind of trying to find peace within that and especially just on the exercise point as well that is a really difficult challenge at the moment megan it's somebody who's kind of recovered what are the things that you think need to be watched out for for somebody like amy hello megan megan are you still there oh we've we've we've lost megan so jess are you still there yeah i'm still here i'm happy to answer that one if it would help. Yeah, what needs to be watched out for now? I guess isolation. I think people really need to check in on any members of their family who are suffering with an eating disorder

because this whole situation has given permission to people to isolate and that's not good for psychological well-being. So, you know, we've got guidance on our website for for carers and sufferers on how to manage this crisis um but we're really encouraging people to stay connected plan out your day um and also i guess you know work on other areas of your recovery if you can you know we're always looking at beat to provide you know a positive message that you know whilst this is a really difficult place to be and there is support through our helpline and you can work on other areas of your recovery megan i gather you're back yes good if we you know the technology at the moment it can be a little challenging but you're back i know you've been advising people to cleanse their social media.

What do you mean by that? Well, this kind of ties into what I would have answered if I hadn't disappeared, is that I think we all have a responsibility at the moment to be conscious of how we're talking about food, how we're talking about our bodies and what we're engaging with online. You know, we are seeing so much content around make sure you don't gain too much weight when you're in isolation, make sure you're getting your exercise in every single day. And while some of the inspiration to move our bodies can be helpful to people to build a routine or to work on their mental health, a lot of it is entrenched

in this fat phobia and this fear that our bodies are going to change and you know what some of our bodies are going to change being still more will make us a bit softer around the edges for a lot of us and that is okay I think now is the time more than ever to really look at what we are taking in both social media and traditional media and how it's affecting how we see ourselves in our bodies so get rid of anyone who is making you feel stressed out about your body changing, who is making you panic even more about food. I think we have enough on our plates to panic about at the moment without that additional pressure. Megan, how easy is it for people to cleanse their social media when for so many people, it's the only way of communicating

with people I agree I personally am very ruthless with both my block button and my mute button the people who I want to stay in contact with on social media are people who inspire me and people who encourage me also to take care of myself. You know, we all have that toxic influence out there, whether it's someone who we're actually friends with in real life and we're worried we can't unfollow them or block them. Mute is an option and protecting yourself is always an option and is always a priority over being polite to people on the internet, in my opinion. Amy, how are you dealing with social media are you prepared to

take Megan's advice and just block anybody who bothers you about the way you look or what you're eating or how much you're exercising? Absolutely I think definitely shaping your social media channels into what you want to see and what inspires you is really important. At the same time, you can't help but be inundated, you know, with Instagram lives of everyone doing their home workouts or, you know, all of their cooking as well. And I think sometimes that can be a trigger point. You know, you see gorgeous, thin supermodels still looking extremely slender whilst they're at home in isolation. And you think, OK, should I really be? Should I be like that? But I think it's just having an element of, like,

rigid control over how you approach the situation. Jess, just a final point. What's your advice to carers at the moment? I know it's hard at the best of times to get help and advice but what would you say to anybody caring for someone who has anorexia what i would say is that we see carers as the most valuable resource to people suffering with eating disorders and you know on our website we've got some good guidance on there but what we'd say is try and come alongside your loved one um ask them what would help don't assume um ask them what how you can support them um put this structure in place keep connected um and i think even remembering

that eating disorders can be about control so we don't want to take the control away from them but we want to support and journey with them through this crisis just let them know they're not alone jess griffith megan jane crab and amy now and thank you all very much indeed for being with us there is information on the woman's hour website if you need further advice just find the details there and we would of course like to hear from you if you have anorexia or someone in your family has an eating disorder, let us know about it because we would like to know how you're dealing with it. Now, if you're watching The Nest, the Sunday night serial on BBC One, you'll know the story so far.

Emily and Dan are a wealthy Glasgow couple who live in an enviable house but are desperate to have a baby. Their attempts at IVF have failed and after several miscarriages they have one remaining viable embryo. There's a bizarre encounter between Emily and a troubled teenager called Kaya and the two women agree

that Kaya will act as their surrogate. Things so far are not going too well but I won't do any spoilers for those of you who haven't caught up yet. Nicole Taylor is the writer of the serial. What prompted her to examine the ethics of surrogacy? I didn't specifically set out to write about surrogacy as an issue, just these characters popped into my head and the idea of two sort of desperate women being drawn towards each other, a woman like Emily having experienced years and years of infertility in a kind of grief state that makes her prone to magical thinking. I just imagined this scenario where she would have a chance encounter with this girl and she's in a sort of vulnerable state and that makes her think that this meeting

was sort of meant to be she she attributes it with kind of sort of qualities of it being fated and things so although it's a very heightened fictional drama I felt there was an underlying psychological truth to the scenario and that's why I wanted to write about it. But I could see Emily being desperate to have a child having tried and tried and tried but why were you interested in the other very young very poor very lonely desperate to belong and possibly being exploited i think i was interested in her because it felt again very plausible to me that an 18 year old girl who's just left the care system, doesn't have anyone around, doesn't know what she's doing with her life, could meet this person who could seem like the answer to all her problems. there's always going to be somebody who puts the idea that hey what about instead of a rubbishy zero hours minimum wage job in a warehouse why can't a young woman do something radical and positive and earn a lot of money for doing something like this it's better paid but also

you know it might be experienced as more valuable more rewarding can't this be something that could be compensated fairly so I was interested in this character. I guess the same reason I was interested in the Emily character, it felt to me like the sort of deep needs in her could actually be answered, or she would imagine it would be answered by getting into this arrangement with the other. But how much did you worry about portraying a couple as prepared to buy another woman's womb? You know, in this country, you're not allowed to pay for it. Expenses, yes. But they were prepared really to do anything for it. I felt a sense of responsibility towards the issue of surrogacy insofar as I researched

everything thoroughly and got the facts right. But my is just that it's a drama it's fictional so the characters can conceivably do whatever they like and if it's provocative then I don't think that's a bad thing if if it gets people talking about the ethics of commercial surrogacy then that's surely a good thing but you're right here that's not allowed altruistic surrogacy is what's allowed here and in the main that's a system that works beautifully it's just there's not enough would-be surrogates to go around how did you go about the research i spoke to people from the main surrogacy charities i spoke to lawyers who advise intended parents on how to make arrangements with would-be surrogates i spoke to to intended parents, I spoke to surrogates

and also I drew on my own legal background by reading a lot of case law where things had gone wrong in the few instances where there's some kind of dispute between the parties. I read the judgments in those cases to try and understand what the law does in such a scenario where things just don't work out. Now, the law is set to change in this country where, as I understand it, intended parents would become legal parents at birth. What impact do you reckon that will have? I think there's people that are more qualified to speak on that than me, but I think it's a sort of tidying up of the law. And I think it's just a way of making the situation more clear for all the parties.

So when the baby is born, it instantly has legal parents in the form of the intended parents, rather than it being the child of the surrogate until such time as paperwork is completed and there's a court judgment. So it just makes the intentions of the parties more clearly reflected in the legal position upon birth. Now, I can hear a very young person in the background. Sorry, Jenny, that's my wee five-month-old girl swapping away. I know you were pregnant when you were writing this drama.

How strange was that? Extremely strange. I mean, I was hoping to get pregnant and and I always like writing about things that I myself I'm scared of or I'm bivouac about and then I got pregnant and then um I still had most of the series to write and then unfortunately I had that thing that Kate Middleton had hyperemesis which you guys have covered in the program many times very well and that was a bit of a nightmare for writing to be honest but I got to the end of it and um she was born just before we started production well congratulations on that she

sounds she sounds very gurgling very happy but what reaction have you had to the drama so far well the reaction when it went out on Sunday night was mainly I'm pleased to say positive and it was people um saying thank goodness this has made us forget about coronavirus for an hour and that's what I love about television that goes out at the same time every week that doesn't go straight away to the iPlayer you can't binge it you know it was a shared experience so people were talking about it on Twitter and that's I was just pleased to distract people um and entertain people for an hour but I. But I've been delighted with the reaction, yeah. Now you have your baby.

Does Emily have her baby? Oh, never you mind. Tune in, BBC One, nine o'clock Sunday night. Let's see. I was talking to Nicole Taylor and you can see the final parts of The Nest over the weekend, Sunday and Monday night at nine o'clock, of course, on BBC One. Now last night saw the start of one of the Jewish community's biggest festivals, Passover.

It's a time when families and friends come together around the table for a huge feast to mark the exodus and freedom from slavery of the Israelites from ancient Egypt. But this year, thanks to the coronavirus lockdown, it's been a little more complicated than usual. Earlier this morning, I spoke to Rachel from Manchester as one of our contributors to the Woman's Hour Coronavirus Diaries. How did her Passover Seder go last night? It was really quiet, Jenny.

It was lovely, very intimate with just the four family members. But usually we'll have about 12, 18 people round, so usually it's quite chaotic and busy and people squashed in together. Last night was very quiet and calm. And it was nice in some ways because we were able to have a family conversation about some of the points in the story that we tell, but it was definitely very different to usual. What sort of food did you make? We had cauliflower and broccoli

soup to start off with because we have a vegetarian in the family so we'd like to have a vegetarian soup then we had turkey with vegetables and carrots and my daughter had stuffed butternut squash and then for dessert we had homemade chocolate ice cream and berry compote. How easy has it been in the run-up to Passover to get the right ingredients, make sure you had the right food to put on the table? So it's been doubly hard for us because my daughter's had COVID-19

so we weren't able to leave the house for the last week or so. And we had to rely on a neighbour to go and do our last bits of shopping. But there were some restrictions in place this year. And in fact, when you were only allowed to buy three items from some of the supermarkets, when we only ate matzo over Passover or use matzah meal a lot, we had to get the manufacturers of those products to write to some of the supermarkets and say, please let people buy more than three packets of matzah

because we'll go through, just four of us, we'll probably go through 12 of them in a week. Obviously, it's a very important religious festival. What about services at the synagogue? How are you managing that? All of the services at the synagogue that I usually go to have been cancelled because we can't meet in groups and it's an orthodox synagogue so that makes it really difficult because most people won't use technology when it's a festival. There are some synagogues that are doing Zoom and they're reformed synagogues. So I'm actually going to join a Zoom service today for the first time, which will be interesting because it will be a completely different service for me

and a completely different way of accessing it. How generally has the Jewish community had to adapt its celebrations, especially with regards to rituals? It's been really tough. There are lots of prayers that are only valid when there are 10 people together. And of course, we haven't been able to have 10 people together for a long time. And I think a lot of people are finding it quite difficult to pray on their own rather than in groups. And there are other things that we do. So if you buy new cutlery or plates, you're meant to immerse them in a mikveh, which is like a pool of water. And we can't do that because we can't go to communal places.

Is there anything positive coming out of this situation or are you just hoping for Passover next year? with one another. We're just really grateful as well that our daughter's better and is through the other side, counting your blessings. It sounds a little bit trite, but it is true. I was talking to Rachel from Manchester, today's Woman's Hour Coronavirus Diarist, and we'd love to hear from more of you who would like to take part. Do get in touch. We had some interesting emails and tweets from you on what to expect when you give birth in hospital. Squiggly on Twitter said she's pregnant. She said, I attended my 20-week scan yesterday. My husband and I were incredibly disappointed that he wasn't allowed to accompany me. We completely understand that it's for the protection of staff and other women. Thank you to the wonderful staff at Peterborough Hospital.

Also on Twitter, Claire Grace said she has a three-week-old born just before the lockdown. NHS teams are doing their best in difficult circumstances, but I found it incredibly tough to get help after being discharged. Alternatives to face-to-face help weren't really available. All baby cafes closed here, understandably. And Gay Appleby's email drew attention to how the lockdown is affecting all the family of newborns. Thank you so, so much for your feature this morning. My youngest child, my daughter Tess, is due to give birth at the Rosie Wing in Cambridge or at home within the next three weeks. I'm distraught that I may not be able to travel up from London to see her once the baby appears.

But I know this stay at home period may be over by the end of May. Needless to say, I'm worried, but I'm taking things day by day. And then the effect of COVID-19 on those with eating disorders. Ella emailed to say, your piece on eating disorders in the current pandemic really resonated with me. I've been bulimic since I was 15. I'm now 35. But over the years, I've learned to recognise both the triggers which exacerbate the condition and tools I can use to deal with it. I find now I'm either hyperactive or entirely apathetic and wake up with a huge crushing weight on my chest every day. I would also add that purchasing food in bulk in preparation for isolation is an issue as it's

very easy to spiral and consume greater quantities than normal. Exercise certainly helps and trying to stick to a schedule although not letting the schedule rule everything, as that in itself can take over and sap the colour out of everyday life. Oddly, I find it helps to think of myself as a car that requires fuel. I rarely have an appetite, but eat because I just need to keep going and function well for my kids. I'm just trying to learn to actually like myself more and recognise that I have the strength to stop myself from falling into the same dangerous patterns, either with thoughts of the potential consequences or simply by distracting myself with a book or a painting or even work. Well, thank you for all your comments. Don't forget, we will be back tomorrow morning.

I'll be here and I'll be talking to the soprano Grace Davidson. She's someone who specialises in the performance and recording of Baroque music, and she's one of the soloists on a new album for Holy Week. So do join me tomorrow morning if you can, two minutes past 10. Look after yourselves. Until tomorrow. Bye-bye. for Holy Week. So do join me tomorrow morning if you can, two minutes past 10. Look after yourselves. Until tomorrow. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.