Woman's Hour - Covid-19. Jane Garvey takes your calls.

Episode Date: March 16, 2020

Jane Garvey takes your calls on Covid-19. Joined by Psychologist Laverne Antrobus and Sarah Stewart Brown Professor of Public Health at Warwick University .What measures are you putting in place? How will you manage with young as well as older children, do you face particular problems with those that have special needs. What about work ? If you are someone who can work at home do you have the tech to support that.Have you thought about setting up a local neighbourhood support network? What provisions are you putting in place for older relatives? How do you think you will cope with being socially isolated ? If you’re in cramped accommodation or shared housing, how do you see that working out.What about the financial implications - if you’re on low income or a zero hours contract and perhaps rely on things like free school meals We'd love to hear your thoughts. Lines open at 8am on Monday morning 03700 100 444. You can email via the website or tweet your comments @bbcwomanshour now.Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Prof Sarah Stewart Brown Guest; Lavern Antrobus

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning to you. Sarah Stewart-Brown is one of my guests this morning, Professor of Public Health at Warwick University, also with me live in the studio in London, the psychologist Laverne Antrobus. Welcome to you, Laverne.

03 700 100 444. We're talking about the coronavirus. We are looking for positivity. There will be positivity out there and we need to celebrate those brilliant community ideas already up and running, people connecting with neighbours, all the great good stuff that's going on out there. A lot of it, of course, coordinated by women,

the sort of women who regularly listen to this programme. At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram as well, of course. We're not going to dodge the fact that there are some very worried people out there this morning. We're all worried, aren't we? Let's face it. Let's talk about the very vulnerable. Think about people going through chemo, people caring for children with special needs. What about if your home isn't a safe space to be for whatever reason? And food banks.

The message out there is keep giving if you possibly can. Beryl is our first caller. She's not happy. She's 82 and she's in Epsom. Beryl, good morning to you. Good morning to you, Jane. Well, tell me how you're feeling. Bloody wonderful. In yourself, but not, tell me how you're feeling. Bloody wonderful.

In yourself, but not happy with the way you're being treated? No, I'm angry. My generation is angry. We are being told we're over 70. We've done sufficient with our life.

Stay in the home for four months and die. That's how it's coming across. It might be coming across that way, but the advice, which by the way hasn't yet been formalised, the suggestion that the over-70s will be encouraged to stay at home is to protect you. It's the exact opposite of what you've just said. I understand that, but it's the way it's being put over. We are

being told by politicians and not the medico people who really know. The government is looking for soundbites and they're not telling the truth. Alright Beryl, thank you. I'm going to put that point to Sarah Stewart-Brown. We've

got so many callers, Beryl, do forgive me. Sarah Stewart-Brown, I want to get your take on the idea that the over-70s are being treated rather badly and unfairly at the moment. Yes, I don't think that's really true. I think that the key thing that's not being discussed in any of this is the fact that we have some influence on how we meet this virus and that our own immune systems offer a level of protection we're all all of us going to meet it in the end elderly vulnerable young children old people all the rest of us and that there's something missing from all the advice is that keeping calm keeping sensible keeping careful is the thing that's going to protect us and other people. But Beryl does have a point and there will be plenty of people who

were absolutely agreeing with her as she spoke out there. You don't think that the over 70s are being patronised to put it mildly? Yes I mean I'm coming up 70 myself and I haven't yet felt patronised. I think, yes, there is this balance between giving the advice about this infection and the advice about how people conduct their lives. And I do think the advice to stay away from people and to stay away from elderly relatives is damaging because our immune systems depend on people helping each other and being kind to each other. Yes, but all of us, including the over-70s, have a responsibility to public health and to ourselves.

And actually, the over- 70s may be better off looking after themselves and staying in, not all the time, but as much as possible. Yes, but I don't think they can stop meeting this virus. It's just a matter of when. And most of us are going to meet it and meet it and be fine and develop immunity. Right. Let's put another

point to you from louise in bradford on avon louise good morning how are you hi um well as a mother of uh we're very active and we like to live a very sustainable lifestyle because we're members of extinction rebellion and um and i i'm with the parents of two teenage boys who are also really active and healthy. And my partner asked me, and I think it's a really good question. Should we actually try and contract COVID-19 over Easter holidays or get sick and then hopefully recover? And knock it on the head. OK, good point.

Let's ask Sarah. Sorry to rush you. Got to ask the callers just to be quite pithy this morning. So, Sarah, what about that? If you're reasonably fit and healthy, get it over with. I think that's a very interesting idea. And I know people are coming on to be talking about herd immunity. And that is precisely how you do it.

The fear about this virus is stopping people taking that approach. So if you can self-isolate when you've got it, you're also going to prevent the spread of it. But it sounds to me like something that really needs considering that approach. Yeah, except to say, and I'm no medical expert, but I heard an eminent medical person on the Today programme earlier saying that herd immunity should be caused by a vaccine. That's the only thing that you can really depend upon. And we don't have a vaccine. Well, that's not the line we take for chickenpox at the moment. We all, you know, children have chickenpox parties in order to get it.

It's very nice if you've got a vaccine. But if you haven't, we rely on herd immunity with ordinary flu outbreaks, which pass through every year. And the reason they don't give us the problem the coronavirus is giving us is because we don't all get it at the same time. And that's the big problem with this virus. So I think developing herd immunity is what we're aiming to do over the course of the outbreak. Yeah, I'm told that I have to say that chickenpox parties are actually not recommended for various reasons, but that's something we can debate. A quick question for you, Sarah, from an emailer

who asks about her mum who's 85 and she gets care at home. She has four calls a day, each of two carers during the day and one call of two carers during the night. Nobody's telling me whether this is actually making my mum more vulnerable because of the sheer number of carers coming into the home. Sarah? Well her mum has to be vulnerable otherwise these carers wouldn't be going in and her mum needs the support and the care of these people. They will be being careful if they think they've got symptoms they won't be going into the house but it isn't possible to have contact with other people and to completely reassure everybody

that you can't come in contact with this virus now a lot of our listeners of course tune in regularly to women's hour perhaps for the first time when they're on maternity leave amy is in birmingham alex in br. We'll go to Amy first of all. Amy, good morning to you. Hi. You're pregnant now. Yes, yeah, I am. And you're concerned because you don't feel you know enough?

Well, yeah, I mean, because pregnant women are usually considered to be a very vulnerable group for respiratory illnesses. And although there is reassurance being provided by the government, it seems from what I can gather that this is based on a very low number of cases so my question is really given these unknowns should pregnant women be considered a vulnerable group in this pandemic and if so what additional precautions should we be taking? Right thank you and we'll bring in Alex in Bristol as well

Alex your baby is very young. Yeah, so I've got a two-month-old. And generally the advice of kind of two-month-olds is that if they have a spike in temperature or anything like that, obviously you can't ask them if they feel mildly unwell or very unwell. But the general advice is if they've got a spike in temperature you get them seen to as quickly as possible because they can get very ill very quickly um obviously now the advice is um you know if you're in that group you call 111 and ask them what to do and um most people i know who've called them have had a lot of trouble getting getting through so um what what do you

do with a baby with a high fever do you go&E and risk the fact that it could be coronavirus and you're infecting healthcare workers or what do you do? Thank you. Let's deal with that question first. Obviously, people like Alex are going to be worried. Sarah, what is the advice? So I'm coming at this, I'm not a paediatrician, but I would say that anybody with a baby with a high temperature needs to

get that baby to hospital or to be seen fast. Now, the age group is one I wouldn't look to give the advice on. But I think the general care that we need to give for small babies and fevers still is pertinent. And the coronavirus doesn't change that that much. My understanding is that this virus isn't particularly a problem for children, that they weather the storm of the virus more easily than some other populations. But with small babies, this is a different matter. Because, of course, as well as the coronavirus, everything else that goes around and is a possibility is also still out there. Yes, and it could easily be something else. And so I think the baby needs checking out.

Whatever's happening. OK, and to Amy in Birmingham's point about just how vulnerable pregnant women are, what do we know about that? Well, I don't know, and I would doubt that anybody knows yet because this virus hasn't been around for long enough for people to catch it in early pregnancy and for their babies to be born. I mean, there are a huge number of viruses circulating and the proportion that have a damaging effect

or any kind of risk in pregnancy is very, very small compared to all of them. And so there doesn't seem to me to be a strong reason to think that this is going to be damaging in pregnancy. But I don't see how anybody can at the moment say for certainty one way or the other. OK, Laverne, you're a psychologist and people are worried for a whole range of reasons at the moment. Would one bit of advice actually be to not indulge in, frankly, live Twitter feeds and live radio and all that stuff too much? Well, yeah, we're in a bit of a catch-22, aren't we? Because, of course, we want to get as much up-to-date information as possible. But, yes, for our general good mental health and well-being,

I think we've got to be quite strategic about how we engage with briefings, online activity. I certainly think that people need to be clear about when they're going to check in for information because they're feeling a bit more robust and also to make sure they're going to very trusted sources because actually there's a lot of information out there that I think will ramp up people's ordinary anxiety. And of course, I work with a population who, you know, have extreme anxiety. So they've got to be particularly careful about how they're engaging with this media. Yeah, I also have to say that most of us, including myself here, have relatively poor or non-existent scientific knowledge. Absolutely, by the way, nothing to be proud of.

And we are trying to deal with all sorts of experts. I mentioned the expert I heard earlier who was saying something that seemed to be radically different to what Sarah is saying this morning on this programme. How do we learn who's right, who's wrong? Who are we going to pay attention to? I think the thing is we're all in that situation unless we are the experts.

But actually, I found that, you know, the people I'm talking to, to patients, what they're trying to do is sort of knit together and weave together a narrative that makes sense to them. I think that any of the briefings have to, in some way, help people understand how it might affect them. You know, so I think there's a way in which you're hearing things. But unless you can fashion it to understand, understand well what does that mean for me it's a bit like your caller this morning saying you know I feel a bit left on the on the heap yeah you know actually what the messaging I think is trying to say to her and people of her age is we're trying to care for you we're trying to look after you but I think that doesn't necessarily come through when you hear

these sort of very sort of harsh lines of stay inside you know lockdowns actually the message that i heard for the over 70s is we want to make sure that you're okay okay that's why we're recommending this um i did ask for positivity and this is from kate i live in a devon village seven miles from the nearest town with a large and aging population i volunteer in the local village shop I've been isolated for over a week now but communicating with our shop committee and our parish council and we've agreed to assist members of our community who decided to self-isolate or became unwell by delivering groceries and papers etc a call was then put out on the village Facebook page for volunteers and the response, as always, has been tremendous. We're a community that works together to look after each other always

and we need to. And I know there are loads of wonderful WhatsApp groups that have been started up all over the country, all over the world, of course. People really are reaching out and learning to speak to each other and to help each other. This is a question from Jennifer. My main concern is for people's health,

but I am also worried about nursery closures upsetting my children's routines and learning, as well as stopping them from seeing their friends. What do you say about that, Laverne? Because children are social creatures like the rest of us. They are, but I think they're very adaptable. I think that really what I hear in that question is, how do I cope with this as an adult, as a parent? Because of course, it cascades into lots of different areas. I think that children do understand that, you know, we are in, or can be

helped to understand that we're in a particular time, and that for their safety, they might not be able to go to nursery school, but their parents will make the best efforts they can to ensure that they, you know, find new ways to be in touch with their friends through the telephone, through FaceTime. I mean, I think we have got to be quite creative about how we go about this. Sarah, I know you are, you're a professor of public health. I have to say that some of the listeners have been more than faintly surprised by some of the advice. Here's a tweet from Karen. Please don't tell people that trying to catch COVID to get over it is an interesting idea.

There is a mortality risk even in the young and fit. Hmm, yes, but we are all going to meet it. It's just a matter of when. And so no about of self-isolating, keeping things out can prevent you coming across this eventually. So we have to think about what we can do when we meet it

and I think that's what you were saying about people trying to get different advice coming from different experts and what am I meant to do when I'm not an expert and I think what I'm trying to bring across is that there's a balance here and the

advice that we're getting is short on this balance about our own resources, what we can do to look after ourselves. But surely at this stage, Sarah, the emphasis has to be on keeping people out of NHS hospitals. They are already struggling. They were struggling before COVID-19. The last thing we want is a load of people with the coronavirus who got it unnecessarily. Well, unnecessarily is to suggest that we can prevent the spread of this virus and all we can do is slow it down. So I think, I mean, I'm totally agreeing with you. What we're seeing is a place where we can't any longer rely totally on the health service because it's overwhelmed. And that means we've got to more and more look to our own resources.

We've got to look what we can do for ourselves to prevent the virus if we get it being serious. So it can be a very mild infection. It can be we can meet the virus and not get ill at all or we can get a more severe illness and that depends on our natural defences. Let's read this tweet from Jen who says I've had measles it's horrible and it can kill

we did not develop herd immunity we started to eradicate it with vaccination but now with people listening to the anti-vaxxers it's coming back. Well that is certainly true uh kathy in hebden bridge hi kathy good morning hello there hi kathy tell us about what situation you're in okay well i'm a massage therapist i'm self-employed i have a small business that we do massage and beauty therapy and i have absolutely no idea what to do. I'm terrified about being infected myself.

I'm terrified about infecting somebody. So I could just kind of not do any treatment. But then what do I do? My business will close because it's my only income. I'm a single parent with two young children and any contingency money that I had was used recently because the town was flooded again. So business went down, football went down.

You've really been clobbered, haven't you? Yeah, and I just, I don't know what to do. I mean, I can do massage over clothing, avoiding touching people's hands and faces, but, and I'm happy to do that. However, I don't want to get a reputation for staying open for my own benefit and spreading germs around. So I just, I don't know what to do and there's nowhere to go to get advice. Laverne, I know that you're not a financial expert or a business expert and nor am I,

but that situation that Cathy describes there, it will be happening to people all over the country. I think that's right, Cathy. I mean, you know, I'm not an expert in this area, but certainly, you know, as somebody who works therapeutically and knows of other people who work privately therapeutically, you know, there are big questions about how do we keep working in a way that doesn't put ourselves or others at risk? And I think, you know, I'm interested in how you've already started to think about,

you know, how do you carry on giving people a service, but in very different circumstances. And perhaps that's the only thing you can do and be talking to your clients about whether or not they're happy with that. But it doesn't, you know, go anywhere near to answering the question about, you know, finances and how you will cope. I mean, it is a very, very uncertain time, but I'm encouraged that you're thinking, you know, I could carry on, but I think it's about a negotiation. You know, certainly I think anybody going to see, you know, a private therapist now

would be hoping that you will be having a conversation with them about where you're meeting them, what precautions they're taking, whether or not you need to have a conversation about travel. I think that, you know, we're all finding that we are having to speak to each other in this way and find out a bit more about each other. The problem is... Yeah, I mean, I've already...

Go on. Sorry, I've already put something on my Facebook and website page that, you know, we're really hot on hygiene, we always have been. We never work on clients who have a cold or or have just had a cold or are coming down with a cold we wash our hands all the time we clean towels every day and and i understand if people want to cancel but i just want people to know that um you know i'm okay to still do treatments and we can negotiate treatments but it's just a difficult situation a real dilemma about what to do and i think you bring the dilemma of you know being self-employed because you don't have the

sort of the scaffolding around you of people to help you with this sort of thinking so i mean i i'm you know i'm heartened to to hear you saying about all the things you're having to do but i understand that it it means it's a conversation you're almost having with yourself and please look up look after yourself Cathy because there will be plenty of people in your situation um I don't suppose many middle-aged people and other people got all that much sleep over the weekend trying to mull over what the future held um thank you very much and very best to you and I hope you can keep going. Maggie is in North Oxfordshire. Hi Maggie, good morning. Hello, good morning. Food banks, tell me. Food banks, yes. So I'm thinking about people who are self-employed and may soon be out of a job and

dependent on food banks and other people who need them on a regular basis. I've been really quite concerned about will there be enough in food banks for those people. And I had an idea that was really generated from visiting my family in the States. And that is that when there, when you go to the checkout, when you buy your groceries, they'll have a tin of peaches or whatever at the end and say, would you like us to add this to your shopping for today? And to be honest, most people, yes, they want that to be added. We'll often say more than that. Yes, that's fine.

Three tins. And you include it in your shopping. Here, when I go to leave the supermarket, I'll walk past the bin and think, oh, I forgot to get something to put in there. And sometimes I go back and get something, but if I'm perfectly honest, mostly I don't. And I think it would be a really easy way to make people more aware of the fact that we do need to keep on supporting local food banks.

And it would be a really easy way for food banks to let supermarkets know exactly what they need. Quite. I think that's a very good point, Maggie. And I'm a bit like you. I'm always full of good intentions about giving to the food bank, but I don't always remember. And that takes the pressure off, doesn't it? That approach. Thank you for that. Brian E in Northamptonshire. And now you've either started one or you're involved in a Facebook group. Bryony, is that right?

That's right. Yeah, so we started a voluntary Facebook group on Thursday. We just put some posts on my local town group to say, you know, I'm here if anyone needs a hand with their shopping or running errands or walking their dogs. And it has absolutely exploded. And now we've got 430 volunteers on the group who are ready and willing to help. And are you surprised by the support you've had? Yeah, it's been really humbling, actually.

It's been lovely to see so many people just really keen to help out their neighbours and the community in any way that they can and people are being so generous as well offering to pay for shopping and sort out money later and it's really been a lovely thing to watch grow yeah isn't it interesting that perhaps people were actually waiting for that opportunity to do something of this nature? Yeah, I think so. And also people are quite creative as well. So one of the things that our Facebook group has suggested is that we don't just help people who are self-isolating, but we can also offer this same help to NHS workers, to medical staff who are perhaps working really long hours and exhausted at the moment.

We're very happy to run errands for them. And then also people have been quite creative on ideas to help support the local community in other ways. So you had earlier on a lady who was talking about her massage business and she's worried that she's self-employed. One suggestion we had in our group is that something we can do is buy gift vouchers from like beauticians and restaurants and things like that to help them manage their cash flow at the moment.

And then in the future, when this all blows over, you can go out and have a lovely experience. Thank you very much. It's good to hear some heartening stuff. Liz is in Beverley, Beverley in Yorkshire. Liz, good morning to you. Good morning. So is it Beverley in Yorkshire or Humberside?

Have I just caused offence? No, no, no, you haven't, no. It's, yeah, it's Beverley, just north of Hull. All right. Just a very quick point. I think that when the schools close, I mean, they're going to close, obviously, for the Easter holidays, but it looks as though they might close earlier,

and talking about a month's closure, which is two weeks short of the summer holidays and i think that the answer you know one of the answers is to have local planning and you know i mean really local really quite small so that one school would be would stay open throughout the easter holidays throughout the summer holidays if that the summer holidays, if that's the case. And that school would be available for frontline NHS staff, it would be for social care, people who are in social care, or anyone who is needed and doesn't want to

and can't leave their children with anybody else. And the second thing is that the school would also provide a service for preschool meals so that children in the area who get preschool meals now would continue to get preschool meals throughout the period of the closure of the schools. We did this in 1958, right? Yeah. 62 years ago. Yes. My mum

was a dinner lady in Withenshaw in Manchester and I used to go and put the cookery out and the glasses out and that school was open throughout the summer holidays and dinner staff did it on a rota basis. Well that's something perhaps

we could... I think that you know if they could do it then, if Manchester Education committee could do it then yeah then certainly it could be done now um and the second thing is i was just thinking when you're talking about food banks how many of us have stacks and stacks of pennies and two pences and all that okay and there's a coin machine in every single supermarket that's a very good point, I've got one in mind there should be a way of channelling that cash to the food bank Thank you Liz, we've got to move on The food bank then can spend it on what it wants

Thank you very much Medway Food Bank have reminded me on Twitter that some food banks use an app called Spareable it's at Spareable underscore co and that means that people can shop online for food banks, even if there isn't one near you. Might be worth bearing in mind. And Henrietta says on Twitter,

my daughter in Sydney tells me that a big chain of supermarkets there are opening at 7am with elderly only people shopping for an hour. That prevents shelf stripping. I think that's an initiative that I think Iceland and this country are about to roll out. Laverne, I was outside a shop yesterday. We were, I mean, it was crazy. I didn't even want to be part of it, but I was queuing for it to open at 11 on a Sunday morning.

What is all that about? I think that's about sheer panic and it becomes quite contagious. I think that what's quite shocking about it is that, you know, even as individuals are involved in doing it, they sort of know they're getting caught up in a sort of mad state of, you know, trying to buy as much as possible, which in effect means that there won't be enough for everybody. And I think that it's a curious state. I've sort of thought about, you know, how it might be for children in school to be saying, well, we've got 10 packs of pasta at home and another child saying, well, we went and we didn't get any. You know, that actually we've all got to start thinking about what this behaviour is sort of demonstrating to each other and to very small children about, you know, how we share. But I do think we've not been, I'm talking personally, I feel like I haven't got any stories that help me to think about being in this sort of time before. Well, because we haven't, most of us. Because we haven't got any stories that help me to think about being in this sort of time before.

Well, because we haven't, most of us. Because we haven't. And so I'm now thinking, well, maybe that's why there was rationing. Maybe that's why there had to be systems. That's, you know, I went into one of my shops and there was nothing in the usual way of pasta and toilet paper. I went into another one and the store manager or the workers had clearly thought about this and said, can only buy two packets yeah and i thought why aren't they all doing that you know because actually in these tense times we need extreme guidance you know we need more guidance we need something that gets into our minds that says no do i i don't need to pick up all of this you know i actually don't need this but you can't do it when you're a bit terrified no um we're just not reacting in the normal way because this is not a normal time and actually maybe we just need to own that unless

you are well into your 80s your memories of the second world war will be pretty much non-existent so for everyone saying we've lived through two world wars no we haven't. Let's talk to Kim. Katie, I do apologise. Katie, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, you befriend people on the phone, is that right? Yeah. So could you turn your volume up slightly, please, Jane? You're quite short, aren't you? OK, I'll try again. Can you hear me OK? Yeah, I can hear you now. Go on then. Tell me about your befriending. Well, basically it's groups on the telephone.

I'm actually registered blind. And I basically am what's called a facilitator. So I enable people to talk about whatever I want to talk about for 50 minutes once a week. And they're put into different groups. And how did all this start? It was basically set up. it's been set up for many years now, but I've been doing it for about 10 years, for people who want to talk together. And I think that's quite important at this time when, you know, people may be on their own. I mean,

quite a few people in groups I look after already don't have family and friends friends and that was my one point and the point was that I belong to a church just for enjoyment and they're planning they haven't made decision yet on cancelling it but I don't think cancelling is always such a good idea you know I can see the the pros you know because it protects people but I think the you know the downside for me is that i i do um with my blindness use um speech with um apps and things like that but there's nothing like there's nothing like actually particularly in a church environment hearing things of course face to face of course um so for example if i hear on this particular app i'm using at the moment i use it at home um it's read by humans and songs. I'm a good singer as well.

I'm not singing a song by humans where appropriate, but when you're actually in a building doing things together face to face, it sounds so different. There's a difference in the sound. Oh, I'm sure there is. It makes a world of difference. Well, thank you. We need both, but not one replacing the other.

That's my way. Your point. Yeah. Katie, thank you very, very much. And Elizabeth is in Kennington. Making a point, Elizabeth, about... That's in London. Making a point about the home not always being a safe place to be.

Yes, I chair the Employers Initiative on Domestic Abuse, and we're very concerned at the moment for people who are facing domestic abuse who are being asked to work at home because for many people who face domestic abuse home is not a safe place and work is a safe place so we're asking employers and we're asking colleagues, employees and friends to keep in touch with people who you know or suspect may be facing domestic abuse. We're also very concerned if the schools close because that will put additional pressure on the children who live in homes where there is domestic abuse. And we know, I'm sure everybody is aware of the harm that causes to children. So we are worried about that too.

So we're asking everybody to do what they can, particularly to care for people who are facing domestic abuse. And it sounds a great initiative, and I agree with you entirely, but how do we go about it? Well employers who have joined us have undertaken to say to all their staff that they're concerned if they are facing domestic abuse and they want to get them to the services that help. There is a national helpline for domestic abuse and people can get help directly from that or they can download our app which is called Bright Sky which is an app which can be used

for people who want to help people facing domestic abuse because it's got a pathway for helpers it's also got a pathway for anybody who feels they may be facing domestic abuse. And it takes people through what might be happening to them and where they can get help. Thank you very, very much, Elizabeth. Some important points made there. Laverne, what do you want to say? Well, I think that's really helpful. I think that the sort of worrying thing about, particularly adults who, in my limited experience, who are affected by domestic abuse is the silence around it. So I think one caveat that I might just come to mind as you were talking is that, you know,

employers need to be aware that some people might need to keep coming to work in some way, in a very temporary way to touch base. But I also think the sort of issue around children, you know, this is going, if schools do close, and they probably will, you know, it's going to really put a lot of pressure on the services that look after them. Because, you know, not only will teachers be worried about children staying at home in situations that are very difficult, but also social workers, mental health workers, all of, we're all going to have to sort of corolle ourselves around these individuals to make sure that they are safe. So it's not straightforward. And I don't think anybody thinks it is, but it's not straightforward, closing schools, the amount of planning that will need to take place to look after vulnerable children that we know about, and to imagine those we don't know about.

Yes, but of course, then I'm bound to ask, but what about the countries that have already done exactly that? Sarah, what would you say about that? Well, I want to come in behind Laverne. I think people are thinking extremely carefully about this in this country. And I'm delighted that they haven't closed schools yet. And we haven't been given that advice. And people are saying, oh, they will close because they've closed in Italy and Spain. That is not necessarily what will happen here. And the points that we've been made

about many children being safer at school are really pertinent. And schools can have a huge role here because we've talked about panic being infectious. What can happen in schools is that they can be a resource for children to help them look at this in a way which is not so frightening and can help them deal with it in a way that calms things down so any kind of gathering for people can be a good thing and can enhance what's going on or can be a negative and the lovely stuff we've been hearing about going on in communities is precisely an example of the positive being put in and communities being better off as a result of it. I wanted to mention this email in particular because I won't mention the lady's name although I can see your name and I really do wish you all

the very best. She says I'm frankly petrified and I've got no idea how to keep myself safe. I'm living with stage four breast cancer. I also have pulmonary hypertension. From what I've read, I do appear to be vulnerable. I fear that if I become infected, I will probably die. I am a 49-year-old single parent to three teenagers. What on earth should I do? I've wondered about removing my children from school and isolating ourselves entirely. This would obviously be incredibly difficult to do because it looks like the whole thing could go on for several months and I have to continue to have my treatment in hospital every three weeks. Also, I have a daughter about to take A-levels.

First of all, obviously, huge sympathy to that lady. Sarah, what would you say to someone in that situation? Well, I think like you, I that my my heart goes out to her it's a really difficult situation to deal with but the that i'd still come back to the point of she needs to go on getting all the help that she can get but that the particular help that will help her is people who are enabling enabling her to calm down and to not get sucked into this fear, which will impact on her health in a whole host of different ways. So anybody she knows or anybody she's come in contact with

in her journeys through the health service, who could teach her, for example, a little mindfulness, who could teach her some other activities that help her regulate her own system. And that's the way she'll keep herself healthiest and have most chance of coming through this well. Now, we started the programme with Beryl, who is our very angry caller, an older woman who just felt that she was being dumped, effectively. And I want to make very clear that Britons over 70s do some fantastic work,

loads of voluntary work, quite apart from anything else, and if they're prevented from doing that, then that will mean that all sorts of organisations will be on the point of collapse. We should also say, as this listener is saying on Twitter, when schools close, many children are looked after by elderly grandparents and that's a really important point, Laverne. So what happens there? I think that's really, you know, I think that is why,

or at least I hope that's one of the reasons why the decision not to close schools is really being thought about, because where the pressure points will then go to means that, you know, we might find ourselves in an even more difficult situation. And yes, I mean, the unspoken sort of work of grandparents looking after children suddenly will really come to the fore. I don't want to drop names, but earlier on, Kathy Burke slid into my DMs, the actor, and she said she's had to cancel a show, but she wants to say that common sense and good citizenship are needed now more than ever. Now, listen, nobody argues with Kathy Burke, and she's absolutely right.

Let's go to Sharon in Dunning. Sharon, good morning to you. Hi. Hello. hello. Hello. I'm a dietitian. I've also got a PhD in food policy and I'm involved in a community food group called Food Inequalities Rebellion. One of the core issues that we're trying to raise is again about schools and community

engagement. My understanding is that from the work in China that community engagement was a cool way of making sure that people remain fed during the crisis yet in in the UK and particularly London where I am we haven't got any because of the cuts in public health and public health nutrition there is no sort of avenue to how we can guarantee foods going into communities during a crisis like this so the only way we can see it being done is through when schools do close, which I think they probably will, then we have to keep school kitchens open.

Right. How will that be done? Well, already there's, you know, boroughs have already, they pay the, you know, the companies and so on have already been paid for school food. And so it means that the school foods can still come in and you can still have, if volunteer staff are going to be used in food banks, then staff could still be paid within schools as catering staff could be paid.

And you could have, whether it's sandwiches or whether it's hot meals, you could have distribution centres to do that. So rather than people relying... Because you're not going to have delivery, being able to deliver all this food. And in China, my understanding is that you had community leaders, which are fair enough from the Communist Party,

but they actually organised food distribution into the community. Yet here we have no avenues of getting food into community other than by the individual, which means particularly deprived people are going to be vulnerable people will be left out. Sure, which is the last thing we want, although, of course, Britain and China, well, Britain is a democracy quite apart from anything else,

that we operate rather differently. Thank you, though. Good point, Sharon. I want to bring in Elizabeth right at the end. Elizabeth, good morning to you. Hello. Now, I know you're interested in whether actually depression would really be heightened if everybody had to be isolated.

Yes, I'm 74, I have mild asthma, my husband died four years ago. The thought of not seeing my remaining family, especially my grandchildren, not seeing friends, not going to church, would make life really not worth living. And I think this must be the case for a lot of elderly people, and wondered

if depression could kill more than the virus. Well, I think it's worth asking. I mean, it's a difficult one, Laverne, but it's awful to be on your own day after day, isn't it? I think you're quite right. And I think, you know, I think it's across the age range, really, because not only are you highlighting something for yourself, but I think that there are lots of people in circumstances where they are quite lonely. So single parents who, you know, haveisolation or locking things down is the way forward i think there have to be caveats within that about how do we stay as we've heard from some of the callers um how do we keep communities alive and and keep connections alive i think the telephone is going to become the the most sort of used resource in in the way that it traditionally has been bring back the landline but But also I think, you know, FaceTime, I think screen time that we use in that way

so that we can stay connected. I know that young children do feel very, very worried about their elderly relatives and being told they can't see them. This is just not going to be possible. So I think stay connected in the ways that we can, but also, you know, look after yourself and give yourself some time with mindfulness.

There's some brilliant apps out there to sort of just calm yourself down a little bit that is the very reassuring laverne antrobus who's a psychologist and you also heard from the professor of public health sarah stewart brown what can i say about this morning so much interaction from you so many emails and i'm going to read a few of them, certainly not all of them, now. I think this is an important one. And a lot of people have said this. I'm 71 and I volunteer in my local community. And I did say on the programme, because I'm aware of it myself,

that so much voluntary work is done in Britain by the over 70s. Susie goes on to say, I'm really worried about the many vulnerable people in my area, particularly children, who could be forced to stay at home with inadequate, even violent parents if and when schools and nurseries close. I'd be happy to join a team covering this position, taking them to the park, looking after them, feeding them. But I'm over 70, so I'll have to stay at home. We retired parents are the carers, the volunteers, the stand-ins and the economy needs us. Here's another one along the same lines from Barbara.

I'm a volunteer for two local organisations, a charity shop and a homeless charity. I'm concerned that these will not be able to continue if the over-70s have to stay at home. The charity will almost certainly have to shut the shop with a consequent loss of income. The homeless charity provides meals every day for homeless people and people who are vulnerably housed.

It only has two part-time workers and relies upon teams of three to four people every day to do the catering. And yes, most of these people are over 70. Alicia on Twitter says, interesting conversations on Women's Hour about COVID-19, especially thinking about safeguarding vulnerable children and those affected by domestic violence if schools were to close

or people are working at home continually. Let's try to be positive. Here is Elizabeth. On a positive and lighter note, I just wanted to say that we have decided to have Skyperitifs. Oh, Skyperitifs. Get it. This is very Radio 4. We live in France and are social distancing, probably going into looking at official lockdown imminently. But aperitifs are a very important part of our social life. We started last night and in theory we'll be having more with friends and family abroad. In some cases with a family we haven't actually seen or with family members we haven't actually seen for a few years and have only been in contact with on a very infrequent basis.

But through social media we've put out the word and we should be reconnecting. Silver linings, says Elizabeth. I tell you what, let's all take up that. Toilets. Due to the lack of loo roll in supermarkets, says Linda, I have cut back on using it by remembering what I once had to do in the Far East. Brace yourselves. I now use a plastic jug and water and very little paper. Perhaps people should try to perfect this technique. Yes. Okay, that might be a way through. You can also get one of those

plastic bottles and just clean it out, obviously, and then fill it with water and have a squirt. Sheila, from a small village near Taunton in Somerset. I am not stockpiling, except I do have an abundance of cat food.

If I'm ill, I'm not expecting to want to eat it. And anyway, isn't fasting meant to be good for us now? I may also buy extra tenner lady because if I'm stuck at home but not unwell, I'll want to use the treadmill for something to do and to keep fit and healthy. But I'll certainly want to do it comfortably.

On Twitter, oh God, here we go. Disappointed that Jane was so dismissive of mindfulness, which in its simplest form is being aware of the present moment without worrying about the future. And it can be very grounding to help people stop spiraling into a panic in these uncertain times. Yes, I have to say, maybe I'm just too hyper to get into mindfulness. All I wanted to make clear was that mindfulness had actually been mentioned in response to an email from a lady who was really going through it. And she had stage four breast cancer. So, you know, I think, yes, mindfulness is wonderful. It is not a solution to that sort of situation. And finally, Christine says,

I think one reason that people are panic buying is that it's unclear what self-isolation means. It isn't quarantine. It could well mean we can still go to the supermarkets, etc. and maybe work. The government urgently needs to clarify. Christine is in Suffolk. Christine, I think you're right.

I think that's basically the problem, that people are going out there because they actually seem to think they are going to be locked into their homes. I suppose it's justifiable if you think you could be too ill to go out and your children are too young to be sent out. Or they, of course, if they're living with you and maybe in close proximity to you and whatever you may have, it wouldn't be right for them to go out. So I guess that's why people are panic buying. And I certainly wouldn't criticise an older person who thought it was sensible to get a few tins in, a few bits of extra stuff. Right. We'll keep going because nothing will stop Woman's Hour.

We'll be back tomorrow and we'll keep on forever. And we want to keep in touch with you so you can contact us via email through the website bbc.co.uk forward slash woman's hour particularly important tomorrow that we get your questions about the financial situation if you're a single parent if you're concerned about perhaps you

work in the gig economy, you're not certain how you can live on 94 quid a week no I'm not certain how you can do that either. If you're running your own business, what will the impact on that be? Louise Cooper is my guest on Woman's Hour tomorrow. She's a financial journalist. Thank you. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.