Woman's Hour - Covid 19 vaccines and children, East Asian Racism, Periods in lockdown, Young women and cryptocurrency

Episode Date: March 25, 2021

A newspaper article reported on discussions around children in the UK being offered COVID-19 vaccines as early as August, although a spokesperson from DHSC has said: "no decisions have been made on whether children should be offered vaccinations". In February the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine began testing on children. There are 300 volunteers aged between six and 17 taking part in the trial. So, what is the likelihood of all children being included in future vaccination programmes. Krupa Padhy discusses the issues with Saul Faust, Professor of Paediatric Immunology and Infectious Diseases at the University of Southampton.Last Tuesday, eight people at three different spas and massage parlours in and around the US city of Atlanta were killed. Six of the eight victims were women of Asian descent. Activists and advocates have pointed to an increase in racially-motivated attacks against Asian Americans throughout the pandemic. But that same rise in hate crime focussed at Eastern and South Eastern Asian communities has increased here in the UK too. Krupa talks to Zing Tsjeung, executive editor of Vice UK and Mai-Anh Peterson, co-founder of BESEA.n, British East and Southeast Asian Network. There have been lots of discussions on the effect of the pandemic on our mental, physical and emotional well-being - but what about the impact on women's menstrual cycles? Anecdotally many women have said they have experienced changes in their cycle, more intense symptoms of premenstrual syndrome or PMS. Last year Dr Anita Mitra, NHS gynaecologist, also known as the Gynae Geek, asked 'Have you noticed a change in your menstrual cycle or hormonal symptoms during lockdown?' More than 5,500 women responded. Two thirds of whom said yes. She now has an in-depth study of 15,500 women who've responded.Why are young women investing in cryptocurrencies? New research released by the Financial Conduct Authority shows new investors are more likely to be female, younger and from BAME backgrounds. They're more reliant on social media for tips and to be using investment apps. There's also a concern that they are taking bigger risks using 'gut instinct'. Krupa talks to money expert Jasmine Birtles and Susannah Streeter, senior investment analyst at Hargreaves Lansdown, about why volatile products like cryptocurrency and foreign exchange are attracting women and how they can protect their investments.Presented by Krupa Padhy Produced by Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Krupal Bhatti and you're listening to Woman's Hour on Thursday the 25th of March. Hello and thank you for joining us. This morning we're picking up on a conversation started by gynaecologist Dr Anita Mitra on Instagram back in May where she asked if women had noticed changes to their menstrual cycles. Over two thirds said yes. Now we are a few months on from that informal survey. Lockdowns have come and gone. And of course, they've come back again and working from home may have lost its charm. Schools have shut and reopened and our usual escapes may be dinner with a friend or a workout at the gym they aren't

available to us in the usual ways how has this year impacted your period or your cycle how has this left you feeling anita's going to explain why these changes might be happening but we want to hear your stories about this too so you'll find us over on Instagram and Twitter. We're on the handle at BBC Women's Hour. Also on the programme, just over a week ago, eight women were shot dead at three massage parlours near Atlanta in the US. Six of these women were of Asian heritage. Now, these killings come in the context of a rise in abuse and assaults against the East Asian and the Southeast Asian community globally. Two women will talk us through their own experience of this.

And we are together going to get our heads around cryptocurrencies and why, since the pandemic, the number of people investing in them is on the rise. It's largely been men investing in them over the years but the pandemic is changing that trend are women taking more risks in the way they invest and what they choose you change the way you manage your money over the past year do you follow your gut or do you take more formal advice i know i turn to my accountant father more often you can text women's hour on 84844 text a charge at your standard message rate. Check with your network provider for exact costs.

And you can also pop us an email or find us on social media at BBC Women's Hour. But let's begin with something we spotted in The Telegraph yesterday. They reported on discussions around children in the UK being offered COVID-19 vaccines as early as August. A spokesperson from the Department of Health and Social Care has said no decisions have been made on whether children should be offered vaccinations. But this is what we know so far. In February, the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine began testing on children. In terms of numbers, we know that 300 volunteers aged between 6 and 17 are taking part in the trial. 240 of them will receive the COVID-19 vaccine. So what is the likelihood of all children being included in future vaccination programmes? And indeed, should all children be included? I'm joined by Saul

Fulce, Professor of Paediatric Immunology and Infectious Diseases at the University of Southampton. Good to have you with us, Professor. Let's talk timeframes. The Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine is currently being tested on children. How far are they with this and how long will it last? Yeah, good morning. Well, we're right at the beginning of these trials. So as we know, and I'm sure you've discussed before, children personally aren't at risk of getting severe COVID. And we also have got a hint from the adult trials that the Oxford vaccine can stop transmission in the population. But we don't know how that is going to behave in the real world.

And so before we go any further with a decision about whether to immunise children, whether that's teenagers or teenagers and younger children, we need to better understand the dose that they might need and any potential side effects that haven't happened in adults, but we need to check the safety in children too. So we're right at the beginning of the programme. I think many of us were quite surprised by the Telegraph article. I'd go so far as to say they might have just made it up and tried to stir a bit of discussion, but I don't know where they got the story from. But I think the timeline for the decision, unless there was a big surge in a variant that was causing concern,

I think the JCVI and Department of Health will wait for the full safety data set before making a decision. And the JCVI being the joint committee on vaccinations and immunisation. So they decide who gets the vaccine. It's interesting what you say

about that Telegraph article and the timeline they set out of this being possibly in play by August. I assume, therefore, by your reaction that you think that this is highly unlikely. I think it's really, really unlikely. I think what we were expecting, if, you know, if there was a complete change in the epidemiology, if we had another big surge and it looked as if schools had changed and suddenly were amplifying the condition, then of course the committee might take a scientific decision that they need to emergency implement vaccine with secondary schools or all children. But actually we're expecting with the vaccine programme in adults, the transmission to drop and to stay low throughout the summer and take us through. What happens to our holidays, who knows, but that's what we would expect. And so,

actually, what we know are planned for all the different vaccines in children are the initial safety studies, dose finding, and initial safety, and then a slightly bigger study of maybe 4,000 to 6,000 children that would take place either in Britain or America, or just America, because the way the regulators work, the American regulator liked to see data from the US, whereas in Europe and the UK, we're happy to accept American data. But we would want to see normally a trial of between four and 6,000 children to check the safety and immune reaction

responses before any emergency deployment or decision to deploy. And even when we've got that data, which might be towards the end of this year, I think the decision that JCVI will make will depend on what's happening with transmission in the community. And we would be immunising children as a whole, like we do for flu every year, to prevent the transmission and the generation of mutant vaccines, not necessarily just to protect the individual children. So we've got to be absolutely certain it's a safe thing to do and we've got the dose right. So that sounds like a rather pragmatic path of action. Can I ask you a rather practical question? Testing these trials, I'm hearing thousands here that thousands of children are involved in these trials or will be potentially. How do you get volunteers for trials

when it comes to testing on children? I'm very curious. People are really altruistic and the young people themselves actually are really keen to take part in studies. One of the best examples, just before COVID, we had been or 23,000 children in a study called Beyond the Team, which was of meningitis, of the meningitis vaccines to see whether they prevent carriage in the back of the throat to the meningitis bugs, as well as they do cause the personal protection. So we know that young people and their families are really happy to take part in trials of vaccines that might protect themselves but also for the good of other children and globally. But just to interject there there's a very big difference between a 12 year old a 13 year old saying yes I want to be involved

in this and a five to seven year old for example and this is how young these participants might be. Yeah we we've got when we do trials in children, and as children's researchers, we've been doing trials in children for some time, we actually have ways of explaining trials in different forms, whether it's a storybook or a very easy explanation, right down to five and six-year-olds. Actually, sometimes we test on babies as we have to do the trials in all age groups in order to prove the safety before we use them in routine practice. And it's amazing, both the teenagers, young people and parents of infants are actually quite often happy to take part in studies. You know, we always do this in a stepwise fashion and with full ethical approval

and with all the safety data we know so far. So all of these things are tested sequentially. And that's why it takes so long. So adults and then teenagers. And when we've got enough data in the teenagers, we might go down to the next group and then so on down to the smallest infants. And as you know, the really important studies in pregnancy too are happening or about to start in the UK and in America, because it's also really important that we work out how to use these vaccines in pregnancy as we do for flu and whooping cough, because pregnant women are particularly at risk of COVID, as I'm sure you've discussed before. It is a moral maze, I imagine, as a doctor,

when you're looking at new vaccinations for children. And we know that children are less likely to fall ill with COVID than adults. But we also know that they play a role in transmitting the virus. We know that the older you are, the chances of getting it more seriously increase. Therefore, how critical is it, in your opinion, that children are vaccinated? I think we don't know that yet. At the moment, we are pretty certain that secondary schools transmission reflects that in the local population. So they don't amplify. In fact, it might be a bit less than the local population, given how often how difficult it is to control teenagers social distancing but the best data we've got from two very large studies that ons and ph the office for national statistics and public health england have done is that the

secondary schools reflect adult transmission in the local environment and that primary school children about transmit about half of that so um whether we immunize children or not will depend on what happens in the trans in the wider population. If actually the immunization program means that the transmission in our society in Britain is very, very low, then there's no urgency and no rush. But I think what we will probably do is implement immunization in children at a later stage when we've got the doses to know what to do, the safety data. And just like we do for flu, we immunise children every year to stop transmission and prevent disease in the at-risk adults and the elderly. And so I suspect in due course, you know, not as an emergency thing

this summer, we will end up immunising children. But again, you know, we don't know which of the vaccines is going to be best at stopping transmission. And it might be we don't need to use two doses to do that. We might get away with one. We just don't know. Lots of unanswered questions. Absolutely. Professor Saul Faust from the University of Southampton,

thank you for your insights there. We're going to turn our attention to events that took place in Atlanta in the US last week. On Tuesday, eight people at three different spas and massage parlours in and around the city were killed. Six of the eight victims were women of Asian descent. Activists have pointed to an increase in racially motivated attacks against Asian Americans throughout the pandemic. But it is something that many say is happening here in the UK as well, even more so since the pandemic began. I'm joined by Zing

Singh, Executive Editor of Vice UK, and Mayan Peterson, co-founder of BSEEN, which stands for British East and Southeast Asian Network. Thank you both for joining me. Zing, let me start with you. How did you react when the Cherokee County Sheriff in charge of that investigation in Atlanta said that the suspect claimed that the killings were not racially motivated? I was completely appalled, to be honest. And I think you have to put this in context of the fact that many people in the East and Southeast Asian community here are fully aware of the rise in coronavirus-related racism and hate crime. Many people have personal first-hand experience of it themselves. And then to hear a police officer who is investigating a case of the murders of eight people, six of whom are of Asian descent, proceed to ignore the obvious racial motivations for a crime like this, just felt

like a real slap in the face. Just to be clear, he said that, a quote here, that the suspect said he had a sex addiction. But of course, like you, many in the East Asian community are calling out those words. And it's important to stress that there was no confirmation that these women were sex workers as well. Mayan, let me bring you in here. The organisation that you work with, Be Seen, was set up by you and five other women of East or Southeast Asian descent.

It's a grassroots movement. It aims to tackle negative stereotypes and promote a positive media representation of the community. What was your response, therefore, to the coverage of these women who were killed last week? Well, I think it's safe to say that what the global

East and Southeast Asian diaspora is feeling at the moment is a sense of collective grief, but also one of trauma, because I think that particularly with the especially violent uptick in incidents against notably East and Southeast Asian elders in the US, although we have seen a lot of incidents in the UK,

Australia, across Europe, was one of commonality. I think that a lot of us really saw ourselves or our family members in the victims. And it also struck home because, unfortunately, most East and Southeast Asian women will know very well that racism and misogyny often go hand in hand together. And it's unfortunate, but it's true that EC women, that's East and Southeast Asian women, experience a kind of hyper-sexualisation and fetishisation from an alarmingly, really a collective feeling there.

Yeah, absolutely. And what I'm keen to understand from you is how this has changed over the past few months. I mean, we've had comments from the likes of former President Trump calling the virus the China flu, and that's obviously led to an increase, some say, in the number of cases of hate crime against Asian Americans. What's the situation here in the UK? How have those numbers and experiences changed? Yes, we can certainly trace a line from the inflammatory language used by people like Donald Trump across the pond. But also we can look, for example, at just before Christmas, we have people like Nigel Farage tweeting, thanks, China, Christmas is cancelled. And that leads to quite an increase in online hate. And

we can draw a line directly from everyday online bigoted behavior to, unfortunately, as we've seen with the Atlantic killings, a real life manifestation of the mistrust and misogyny that's kind of deeply ingrained in a lot of people's consciousness today. And our organization, Be Seen, was founded in response to a noticeable increase in negative media representation of people of East or Southeast Asian appearance surrounding the pandemic reporting, and an overall frustration at the lack of visibility of EC people in Britain anyway. That is to say that there's no positive or very little positive representation to kind of balance it out. And so what we're really doing is trying to create a space for community to share thoughts and opinions and a kind of balance it out. And so what we're really doing is trying to create a

space for community to share thoughts and opinions and a kind of positive spotlighting, reclaiming the narrative to put EC voices and faces out there in a space whose parameters are defined by us and for us, because unfortunately, we don't see that in the wider social consciousness at the moment. Well, let's talk about that a bit more. Because I think with all of these kind of stories, we can talk, you know, for days about the numbers, those figures, those statistics, but really, it's about those personal experiences. Could you share with us possibly your personal take on this, what you might have experienced? Mayan, I know you were born and raised here in the UK. So why don't we start with you? I was actually born in Hong Kong, but you're right, I grew up in London. And in terms of COVID related racism, I think I myself have managed to avoid the worst of that treatment because I spent a lot of the pandemic out of the country. So most of what

I've experienced has been online or inflammatory comments. But it's actually quite a sobering feeling to realise that I feel lucky not to have had anything more serious while friends and family members have been racially harassed several times. And that leads to increased feelings of fear when leaving the house. But like most EC people, I've experienced those sort of I don't refer to them fondly as regular microaggressions, which, although the name suggests that they're small, trivial occurrences, can add up over many years to cause quite significant harm to people's well-being. I mean, for example, people making fun of the shape of EC people's eyes, making indistinguishable martial arts noises or making fun of EC languages and suggesting that I eat dogs and cats or questioning my nationality. You call that microaggression, but when I hear that, I feel like it's definitely not that. It's a lot more. Yeah. And this is stuff that starts in the playground and continues throughout your adult life. And in addition to that, I think that women

will often notice that as they grow older the treatment and harassment that they receive becomes increasingly intersected with their gender and I've mentioned this hypersexualization before and a lot of that blame for that lies with the stereotyping that we see on screen and in the media and personally I started receiving racialized sexual harassment from the age of about 13 wearing my school uniform out in public. People would shout things like me love you long time and make jokes about my partners or that first one being a line from a very well-known film about the US war in Vietnam. And this is hugely problematic across multiple axes because it says a lot about our social consciousness when it comes to women, East and Southeast Asian people,

sex workers and migrants. And so that's why it's critical to look at the Atlanta shootings. Zing, what about you? What about your personal take on this and your personal experience? So I have quite a unique experience in that I moved to the UK when I was a teenager. So I went from being part of a dominant majority ethnicity, which is Chinese Singapore in Singapore, where I grew up, and went to becoming part of a dominant majority ethnicity, which is Chinese Singaporean in Singapore, where I grew up and went to becoming part of a relatively small minority. And I think that because of my desire to not stick out and stick my head above the parapet, I spent a lot of time brushing off

racism as just a kind of failure of cultural understanding, you know, those kooky Brits. And yet I didn't really get for a very long time why, for instance, when men came up to me in public spaces, pubs, bars, clubs, bus stops, even, they would try and speak any number of East or Southeast Asian languages that I didn't speak myself, usually very badly. Bow to me, compliment me on my English. At the time, I don't think I had the language to understand that these were microaggressions. But now I kind of liken these microaggressions to sort of being stabbed with a very, very subtle knife repeatedly, right? So you might not notice it when it first starts happening, but over time it adds up and then you realise that, you know, you've been quite injured over a period of time just by the sheer weight of them stacking up.

And what was harder to ignore when I came to the UK was the overt racial abuse. So I've had racial slurs directed to me at, you know, tube stops. I've had it directed to me online. There's definitely been uptick in the amount of racialized harassment I got as a woman journalist online in the last year since the COVID pandemic. And this is very much, I think, the tip of the iceberg for a lot of people of EC descent. You know, I've only been here for about just over 10 years and I consider myself relatively fortunate to not have suffered more intense racial harassment.

You know, I think back to cases like Jonathan Mock, who is a Singaporean student who was attacked in Broaddale on Oxford Street so badly he needed facial surgery. Singh, isn't it incredible that there's almost a kind of radar, there's almost a chart, a level of you feeling fortunate that you haven't experienced that degree of harassment in any way. Moving this forward, going forward, last year we saw the global outrage

after the killing of George Floyd in the US and those conversations around the Black Lives Matter movements. Listening to what you're saying, do you feel the East and Southeast Asian community were left out of those conversations, are left out of those conversations? What needs to be done going forward? Zing, come on in. I think that, you know, what the Black Lives Matter movement did for, you know, have spent quite a long time trying to assimilate and not engage with their ethnicity was to show a path forward, that there is a path to kind of discussing racism and tackling it. So, you know, I really admire what Black Lives Matter has managed to achieve in such a short amount of time.

And I think the conversation for people of EC descent is much further behind, especially in the. And, you know, I talk about more so for women as well. Yes, exactly. And I talk about these microaggressions as part of a tapestry of discrimination. Right. So Joe blogs down the pub, might think nothing of coming up to a woman who looks like me and bowing deeply and trying to speak whatever he thinks is my language. But for a woman of EC descent, that immediately calls up a whole history of racialized and sexualized abuse that they've suffered. So that's why I want people to understand that this is all part of the same tapestry of discrimination. Fascinating conversation. Thank you to you both.

Zing Singh, Executive Director of Vice UK and Mayan Peterson, co-founder of Be Seen, an organisation which works towards the rights and voices of British East and Southeast Asians. Thank you to both of you. I'm sure this is a conversation we will return to again. Don't forget, you can always catch up with Women's Hour at any point on BBC Sounds. Yesterday, we heard about the Great British Spring Clean, muddling my words there, the Great British Spring Clean 2021,

which has been launched by Keep Britain Tidy. Women seem to be leading the charge in this area, which is not to say that men are not involved. Emma spoke to the chief executive, Alison Ogden-Newton, and asked her for her view. Well, I mean, it stands to reason we were founded by the Women's Institute in 1955. So right from the get-go, it was women showing leadership

in local environment quality that set up Keep Britain Tidy. And of our 300 Litter Hero ambassadors, the majority of them are women. So, you know, particularly the young ones. Why do you think that is, Alison? I'm seeing obviously loads of messages this morning, but why do you think that is? I think we all notice the rubbish that's around us, but I think women in particular have a tendency to take responsibility

for the world around them and particularly the world on their doorstep. So I think I think that has really responded. I think particularly girls at school of all our sort of school age ambassadors, the vast majority are girls. So dare I say environmentalism really resonates. Dare I say, are you saying women are better at cleaning up? Do you know, I'm really trying not to say that, really trying not to say that because it's not our responsibility and we're not there to do it, are we?

But on the other hand, it does seem to be something that we roll up our sleeves and get stuck into. So whilst this is very much a group sport, litter picking and the support of local environment quality does seem to be something that women really respond to. And we're very grateful for that. The irony is people seem to be getting a lot out of picking up litter whilst being very angry about it. Yeah. Well, doesn't it make you angry? It makes me angry. I mean, who put it there in the first place? It shouldn't be there. We shouldn't have to live with it.

And the environment certainly shouldn't have to weather it. And it is. And the impact of that is very serious. So it is a serious business. It does make people cross. But there's a difference between being cross and doing something about it. And you can still get involved in that conversation. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check with your

network provider for exact costs. And we're obviously over on social media as well at BBC Women's Hour. And you can, of course, email us too. Now, there have been lots of discussions and many words written about the effect of the pandemic on our mental, physical and emotional

well-being. Changes in sleep patterns, low energy and mood changes, our own experiences. But what about the impact on women's menstrual cycles? Anecdotally, many women have said that they have experienced changes, changes in their cycle, more intense symptoms of premenstrual syndrome. And last year, Dr. Anita Mitra, an NHS gynaecologist, also known as the GynaGeek, asked, have you noticed a change in your menstrual cycle

or hormonal symptoms during lockdown? Over 5,000 women responded, two-thirds of whom said yes. Happy to say Anita joins me now. Anita, I should say thank you for joining us because you've just come off a night shift. You've not slept. And add to that, you've done four cesarean sections and one vaginal birth. So thank you for your time. Quite the night for you. A normal night, I should say. Let's talk about the details of your Instagram survey. I know that you've gone on to expand it to more women and

more women have responded. What have you been hearing? Yeah, well, I just sort of started to get messages trickling in via my social media accounts of people saying, I'm not really sure what's going on. And I was noticing such an array of changes. So people were saying they were heavier, they were lighter, more painful, less painful, not coming at all coming all the time. And I just thought, you know, wow, this is this is really incredible that so many people are mentioning this. So that's why I did the sort of informal survey that you mentioned. And I thought that it was going to be probably the other way around. I thought maybe one third of people would say that, yes, there was a change, but actually it was quite a standard that there's

actually two thirds. And so I thought, you know what, I want to know more about this because a lot of women were really feeling quite anxious because of these changes. And understandably so, because, you know, we're getting more used to talking about our periods. And so people are becoming more aware of what their cycle is like, what their hormonal symptoms are like. And I think a lot of people felt very worried because they weren't really sure if this was something that they should go and see their GP about. And, you know, a phrase I hear a lot of the time is I don't really want to bother my GP. Yeah. So I wanted to sort of find out more.

And that's why I did a further study, which I had ethical approval to do. And we're shortly going to be publishing the results. But it really is, again, a whole wealth of different changes that people are noticing. And a very simple question, why is this happening? Well, I think it's really difficult to say exactly why, but I think we do know that lifestyle does impact on our menstrual cycles. And, you know, again, there's not a lot of studies out there about it, which is why I felt so compelled to try and find out more, because it matters to women. Women were, you know, wanting to know

more. And I think, you know, thinking very extreme examples, but, you know, we know that people who are experiencing famine or war or very traumatic events will notice change in their menstrual cycle, a lot less extreme for the majority of people. But, you know, the huge changes in our sleep, as you already mentioned, you know, I think certainly at the start of lockdown, most of us were, you know, doing every kind of free online workout that was going on. You know, a lot of people were, for example, drinking more alcohol, changes in, you know, the way that we're eating, and certainly just huge changes in our, you know, circadian rhythms. And it's really important to mention that the ovaries are not just

pumping away down there on there. All of our hormones talk to one another and everything that we do throughout the day actually does have a very small knock on effect. That's so interesting. Our hormones talk to one another. And so on the subject of hormones, I mean, we all talk about looking after our skin, our hair, our, you know, other parts of our body, but our hormones, how do we look after our skin, our hair, our, you know, other parts of our body, but our hormones, how do we look after our hormones? Yeah, it's a really tricky one. And I just think, you know, you've got to take it back to basics, you know, our body needs to know that we are running on a schedule, everything, you kind of need to tell your body, everything's going to be

okay. So that's the simple things like sleep hygiene, you know, making sure that you are getting some kind of movement, trying to get some kind of social contact, which of course is really difficult, but is a really crucial part of, you know, essentially being a human being, making sure that, you know, not excessively drinking alcohol or caffeine, and then making sure that you are having some kind of semblance of, you know, a meal pattern. I think they're the real basics. It sounds like routine is really central here. Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, over the last year, I mean, it's completely gone out the window for most of us. And it will definitely have an impact. And are some women more impacted by our routines going out the window than others? Yeah, absolutely. And that's, again,

something that we don't really truly understand and something I would like to know more about. But I think, you know, a simple example is if you've been on a long haul flight, you've been on a holiday and some people will find that their period is early or late after they come back from that trip because of the change in the time. But other people won't. So I think it very much depends on what else is going on. And it's very individual, but it is a very real thing. I should mention this message that we've had in by email. My periods have been totally messed up and thrown our IVF plans out the window. And as we're doing treatment abroad, this has turned into a logistical nightmare. I'm so sad as time is not on my side.

I guess we need to remember that this is so multi-layered. You know, our mental cycle is linkedered, you know, our mental cycle is linked to, you know, our livelihoods, our family planning and so much more. Absolutely. And, you know, stories like that, unfortunately, I am hearing very often. And then these are the stories that, you know, are still very important things that are happening in the pandemic. They're important to people. And, you know, it's these are the stories that we're not hearing. And there are a lot of people out there experiencing the same thing and it is really unfair. Dr Anita Mitra thank you for your insights there we've had a few we've been talking about this what a

fascinating subject I haven't had my regular period since having a baby in 2020 yet but I know friends say the stress and anxiety of the pandemic has changed their cycles. And another message here, I've put my changes, skipping periods down to being perimenopausal. We're all kind of muddling our way through this and trying to figure out what is going on. Thank you so much, Dr. Anita Mithra there. And if you want to check her out on Instagram, do pop along to her handle at Gaina Geek. It's time to talk money or rather digital money and the rise of young women investing in cryptocurrencies new research released by the financial conduct authority shows that the profile of people making investments is changing new investors are more likely to be female younger

and from black and ethnic minority backgrounds they They're more resilient or reliant and possibly resilient on social media for tips and tend to use investment apps. And there's also a concern that they are less educated and taking bigger risks using gut instinct. Lots to talk about. Joining me are money expert, Jazmyn, senior investment analyst at Hargreaves Lansdowne. Thank you both for joining me.

Jazmyn, I'm going to start with you. And here is your challenge. Can you give me a one minute explainer on what a crypto or what cryptocurrencies are? Oh, gosh, I'll do my best. The clock starts now. Well, unlike what you would talk about normal money, fiat currencies, pounds, dollars, etc. Cryptocurrencies are decentralized. So there's no central offices them and ratifies the transactions. It's done on a decentralized ledger across the world, across thousands and thousands of computers. So every transaction is recorded on all of these computers, which means that nobody can go in and change them. And they work on something called the blockchain, which is a technology that is run by what are

called miners. So anybody who has these computers, they help to unpick the cryptography, the puzzles that keep those transactions secure. And by doing it, much of the time, they can actually make Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever the cryptocurrency is. So that's how the actual currency is produced at the same time. So digital tokens almost not controlled by a bank or a government. And it's something that you dabble with a bit. Is it a bit of a boys club? Well, it has been, but there are a lot of women and I'm frankly, I'm pleased to hear that more women, okay, they say young women are investing in cryptocurrencies. As you say, I do invest, I have Bitcoin, Ethereum and one or two of the smaller cryptocurrencies. I think of it as the future of money. So my view of it is a long term view. I am not happy about people just going in to make a quick buck. You know, that to me, any sort of alleged investing is basically gambling. So I am unhappy about that. But I am pleased to hear about more women at least investing, whether it's stocks and shares or cryptocurrency. I'm very pleased to hear that that's happening.

Susanna, let's bring you in here. The figures from the FCA show that women now make up more than 50% of new self-investors. Are you surprised by that? And has lockdown possibly accelerated this trend? I think certainly you've seen during lockdown many more investors dipping their toe into stock markets for the first time. What is really worrying, though, in this report from the Financial Conduct Authority is that it shows that some of those new investors are investing in these really risky speculative assets. Now, Jasmine's talking about a Bitcoin view for the longer term. The problem is many investors are literally jumping into Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies with the expectation that they'll make a fast buck.

They're not looking at whether it's got intrinsic value. And certainly many would say it doesn't have that. It's very difficult as a means of exchange at the moment. And so there are so many warning lights around about Bitcoin. And it is this danger that what people are doing is rather than looking at it as a long term investment, they simply are trying to ride the wave, buy in and then sell out at a higher price. And of course, they don't ever know exactly when that will come. So the problem is they could end up getting their fingers burnt. And this is very problematic because although, as Jasmine was saying, it is really encouraging to see people investing for the first time, what they need to do is make sure that their risk is

diversified and it's across a range of assets and that they don't get swept along by the hype, which is being propelled by social media influences in particular. A link to what you're saying. I've seen reports suggest that this rise is due to what people are being called as DIY investors and it also found that they're often being swayed by influencers on sites such as Instagram and TikTok. I mean where should people turn to for advice on these matters, Jasmine? Well, I mean, I would blow my own trumpet and say, I mean, I actually do webinars through my website, moneymagpie.com. We talk about all types of investing for beginner investors. And we do lots about how to start investing in the stock market and, of course, in cryptocurrencies. But there are also

a number of other websites. Of course, frankly, the BBC website has some pretty good articles about how to start investing. It explains very well what cryptocurrencies are. And there are also some specialist sites like CoinDesk, for example, which has a lot of articles, quite a lot of them difficult to understand unless you've been in the crypto sphere for a few years. But there are a number of places that you can go for sensible advice. And I would certainly say anything that you see on social media, you should immediately assume is a scam because there are scams all over the internet, particularly on social media. Also, though, in emails directed to certain people saying, oh, you know, there's this new crypto thing, and we've got a trading platform for cryptocurrency, it's highly likely that they're

run by criminals and that you will never see your money again. So you have to be very careful and really read up first, just to find out to start off with which are the right platforms to use that are pucker and won't just take your money. Some good guidance there. Susanna, how do women traditionally fare as investors, maybe in more traditional forms or cryptocurrency when it comes to their male peers? Well, certainly, the research has shown, in fact, there's some research from University of Warwick in 2018, shown that actually, when women do invest in the stock market, they have a return around 1% higher than men. And that is because actually, they have been found not to indulge in this really more speculative behaviour, switching and ditching stocks.

And they are much more inclined to look at their investments over the longer term. So in many ways, although it's great to see more women coming in, dipping their toe into the market for the first time, it is worrying that perhaps might be changing their behaviours and being too risky. However, all investing poses a risk and there is a risk as well of leaving your money languishing in an instant access savings account. So guilty about it, yes. So in fact, if you look over a historic basis, if you invest in the stock market, a tracker fund tracking the stock market on a historic basis, you could see an annual return. We have seen an annual total return around 8% a year. So it's a huge difference. But women are not putting their

money into stocks and shares ISAs at the same rate as men at all, 23%. And more men put money into stocks and shares ISAs. So women are being left behind. And that ISA gap is widening, unfortunately. Some of us might say, you know, I've got enough passwords to remember. I can't be dealing with another ISA, another stocks and shares, you know, a cryptocurrency. Jasmine, why is it important that women participate in this boom, in your opinion, this next wave of natural innovation, might we call it? Well, as Susanna said, not enough women are investing. They will say, sadly, for years, it's been said, women save, men invest.

And as Susanna's pointed out, that means women are losing out. And over time, that loss increases because of compound interest, etc. So it is really important for women, even just to dip their toe, I would say into investing in stocks and shares, do some courses, read up, there are lots and lots of really good websites on around with and lots of good books that will show you in quite easy ways how to invest and make sure that you make the most of your pension, particularly if you have a company pension.

Grab that with both hands, put as much as you can in, set up stocks and shares, ISAs. And then with a small amount of your money, and I always say only a very small percentage of your money, yeah, why not? Give cryptocurrency a bit of a go and maybe some peer-to-peer platforms as well that will lend your money out at a better rate than you would get in savings accounts.

These are the riskier things. So you should only put a small amount. But I think why not? Because you you never know over time. Some of those could could grow into something that is more... Fascinating. Thank you very much, both of you. Jasmine Bertels and Susanna Streeter giving us their expert tips there on cryptocurrency and this news that more women are choosing to invest in cryptocurrencies. If you're keen, if you're interested,

if you want to know more, if you've done it, please do get in touch at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter. That's it from us. Do join us again tomorrow. Hi, Russell Cain here. I just want to tell you about Evil Genius. It's the show where we take legends and icons from history. Everyone from Henry VIII to Gandhi, Richard Pryor,

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