Woman's Hour - Covid Inquiry, Poet Andrea Gibson remembered, Supporting survivors of violence

Episode Date: November 21, 2025

The Covid Inquiry led by Baroness Hallett has concluded that the UK did too little too late in response to Covid-19, that the lockdown could have been avoided if steps such as social distancing and isolating had been introduced earlier. Joining Anita Rani to give their response to the findings and tell their stories of that time, are musical theatre actor Ruthie Henshall, whose mother died in a care home during Covid and Naomi Fulop, from Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice UK, who also lost her mother during this time. Another chance to hear a shortened version of an interview Anita recorded last month with Melinda French Gates, the most well known and powerful woman in philanthropy. In 2000, Melinda co-founded the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which has - to date - donated over one hundred billion dollars to charitable projects. She and Bill Gates married in 1994 and divorced in 2021, after 27 years of marriage. Melinda has since left their joint enterprise and set up her own, Pivotal Ventures, which has one purpose: to put power into the hands of women. In a new report 'Care, courage, change,' the World Health Organisation has conducted analysis of the various health and support policies for survivors of violence in the 53 countries of the WHO European Region. The report reveals that almost one in three women and girls aged 15-years and older, will experience physical or sexual violence in their lifetime - but countries' health sectors are failing nearly one in three survivors. Anita Rani talks to Melanie Hyde, WHO Europe’s Gender, Equality and Human Rights Technical Officer, author of the report.Poetry, love and an incurable cancer diagnosis are the themes of a new film looking at the relationship between the acclaimed spoken word poet and activist Andrea Gibson and their wife, writer Megan Falley. Megan joins Anita along with the documentary's producer Jessica Hargrave to talk about the film and her late wife. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. A damning report on the handling of COVID has concluded that if we'd gone into lockdown, only a week earlier, over 20,000 deaths might have been avoided in the first wave. Let me know your reaction to hearing this news today. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844.

Also, the World Health Organisation Europe has conducted a first of its kind report called Care, Courage, Change. It's an analysis of 53 member states of the WHO European region looking into health and support available to survivors of violence. It's revealed shocking statistics. One in three survivors of violence are failed by the health systems in their country. We'll be looking into why. And this morning we'll be discussing the life of Andrea Gibson,

Colorado, poet laureate and activist, spoken word poet. who died of cancer in July of this year. Come See Me in the Good Light is a very powerful, funny, moving and beautiful documentary that captures Andrea's life with cancer and her wish to perform one last time before her death. It's an incredibly intimate film, allowing us access to their world and relationship with wife, Megan.

Personally, I found it incredibly moving. Andrea's words and actions teaching me personally about how to live with love and compassion. compassion it will stay with me for a very long time. And I'm very much looking forward to speaking with Megan and Jessica, the producer of the documentary shortly. So this morning, I'd like you all to tell me about a lesson or a way of life that you live by learnt from someone who is no longer with you. Was it a free-spirited aunt who never saved anything for best? Always wore her red lipstick. Someone who maybe always spoke the truth or stood up for injustice or volunteered once a week.

Will you give an advice by your mum or your dad or a lovely perspective on life by a loved one? Please share your thoughts, your personal experiences and your opinions on this this morning. Get in touch in the usual way. It's 848444 is the text number. You can email me by going to our website or the WhatsApp number is 0700-100-444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. That text number once again, 84844. But first, the COVID inquiry led by Baroness Hallets has concluded that the UK did too little too late in response to COVID-19,

that the lockdown could have been avoided if steps such as social distancing and isolated had been introduced earlier. There was a toxic and chaotic culture at the heart of the UK government, along with a lack of urgency of the situation by the then Prime Minister Boris Johnson. On the Today programme earlier, Justin Webb asked former government minister Michael Gove, about that culture and whether it had led to unnecessary deaths. I do certainly think that there were moments when voices were raised, words were used, attitudes were struck that were far from ideal, but the business of government during a crisis can't be carried on in the manner of a Jane Austen novel. It's the case that we were dealing with, as everyone across the world was,

an unprecedented crisis with a novel virus, which most intelligence agencies now believe was a lab leak rather than a naturally occurring virus. He did also apologise on behalf of the then government while joining me to give their response to the findings of the inquiry and tell their stories of that time. Our musical theatre actor Ruthie Henshaw, whose mother died in a care home during COVID,

and Naomi Phillips, former COVID-19 bereaved families for Justice UK, who also lost her mother during this time. Naomi and Ruthie, thank you for joining us this morning. I'm going to ask you the same question. What's your response to the findings of this inquiry? I'll come to you first, Naomi. Well, it's a really important report, and I and the whole group feel vindicated by what's in it

because it's what we've been saying for five years. It outlines in detail in black and white the catastrophic way, Boris Johnson and that government led or didn't lead us through that pandemic. The terrible decisions that were made, the late decisions that were made. You've already referred to the additional 23,000 deaths by not calling the first lockdown early. But they also did not learn during that summer, and that's laid out in the report, the lessons from February and March of that year, in order to prepare us properly for that autumn and winter, when my mother died

and he did not listen to Sage's advice to call a circuit breaker in September 2020 and delayed that second lockdown by six weeks and if you remember, eat out to help out policy in August 2020 which incentivise people to go inside and essentially spread the virus.

Scientific advice was not sought at that point. So the economy was prioritised over public health and people's lives. And what's really important now is that this government implements the recommendations. Ruthie, I'm going to bring you in. What's your initial response? It's amazing how much anger comes up

when I have to talk about this stuff after, you know, what happened to my mother who was in a care home. Because for me, looking back, lessons have to be learned because it's the only positive thing to come out of it. And, you know, because the idea of humanity went out of the window. It was just about numbers. And, you know, this is why, you know, I campaigned so hard for Gloria's Law and still do because it would be a law that would allow people never to be on their own again,

die on their own. Explain Gloria's Law. Gloria's law would mean that it would be enshrined that everybody would be able to have one person, just one, that could advocate for them, could be with them 24-7, because I watched my mother from a care home window for nigh on a year, because it became a postcode lottery as to which homes would let you in. And the problem was that the government was just giving guidance to us all and it wasn't clear. And of course, that guidance, they weren't even taking themselves because they were, you know, cheersing in number 10 and snogging in corridors and, you know, and that, I think, was a terrible thing to happen because what it did, it's like, I always say this about being in a company. in musical theatre, how the leads behave will filter through a company. So if you are badly behaved, you give everybody else permission to do the same. And what they did was just blow it all up because people then went, well, if they're not following the rules, then I'm not going to.

Have to learn. Tell us what happened to your mother. My mother at the beginning of lockdown was walking, talking, feeding herself. She was fine, essentially, with dementia. By four months into lockdown, she wasn't walking, she couldn't talk anymore. She couldn't feed herself. All her food had to be mushed up. All her drinks had to be thickened.

She, essentially, people in homes, died of loneliness. The statistics say that because the amount of deaths from COVID and the amount of deaths that weren't COVID related is disproportionate because you can't, we everybody went through this. We all understood we needed people and it's a basic human right and we were banned from coming in and it was I still can't go past a care home without and I have to drive past one on my way home every night. It makes me sick. It will never leave me because we couldn't do anything yet the government it was just this absolute chaotic mess going on there and nobody was leading. Naomi, your mother also died during the pandemic and she was cared for at home with

carers coming in. What was your experience at the time? So similar and different to Ruth's. So she was careful by wonderful domicillary care workers and they had really inadequate PPE. They wore one of those thin medical masks for each eight-hour shift. So they were going from frail elderly person to frail a little person and I felt she was a sitting duck for COVID and we kept we tried really hard to keep her safe but the second wave which was such a utter disaster she died in January 2021 and she was taken into hospital with COVID and we were unable to visit her and she died alone, which is a, is a terrible trauma that so many thousands and thousands of people experienced. That's January, a thousand people a day were dying of COVID. And I think it's

really important to remember that. I know Ruthie says, you know, we shouldn't focus on the numbers. And I also agree with that. However, I do also think that we haven't allowed, we haven't allowed ourselves to deal with that trauma as a whole society. Yeah, agreed. Totally agree with that. And it is a trauma. So how do you deal with it? How have you been coping with it, Ruthie?

Throwing myself into trying to get this law passed because I have to feel like something good has come out of this. And so many people were affected. I know I'm just one of many. But one of the things that really I find extraordinary is nobody has said sorry from the people who were there at the time. Everybody seems to be just, you know, trying to save their own skin. So it's really interesting that Boris Johnson hasn't, as of now, made a statement, hasn't responded to the report. So it will be interesting if and when he does.

but from our point of view and how I responded, Anita, was I found this wonderful group of people, COVID-19, Breed Families for Justice UK, and we campaign for the inquiry, and now we work really closely with it, and we're still campaigning to ensure that the recommendations are implemented. But Boris Johnson and other elected officials named in the report should never hold public office again, ever. It's really important to remember that he said things like, let the bodies pile high in their thousands.

And that is quoted in this report. People need to remember that, that we had a prime minister who did not care about people's lives. There was an apology on the Today program from Michael Gove this morning. But Ruthie, the report also says that rule breaking by politicians

and their advisors undermined public confidence in decision making and significantly increase the risk that people would stick to the measures put in place. What your thoughts on that? Well, as I say, said, you know, it just gave people, it caused such anger in us that we had observed the rules, we were standing outside care home windows, waving, not able to get in, watching our,

you know, as I was, you know, watching my mother dying through a care home window. And they were just, it was like they didn't care. It was one rule for them and one rule for us. And, you know, we have to learn lessons. Humanity and basic human rights went out of the window and there they were slapping each other on the back. It, it's still, as I said, at the beginning, makes me very, very angry. It all kind of comes up again and I'm so grateful for what you've been doing, Naomi.

I really am. You know, and that's the one thing about tragedies is, you know, there has to be something good that comes out of them and this can never happen again. The inquiry has several recommendations including

improving communications, a consideration of the impact of decisions and creating expert groups Are you pleased to see recommendations like this? There are some really important recommendations. So one of them is in proving the communicate, well, setting up a communication structure between the four devolved nations.

It shouldn't be reliant on people's relationships with each other. If you remember, Boris Johnson couldn't speak to Nicholas Sturgeon, and this is in a national emergency. So that recommendation is really important, as are the recommendations about scientific advice, that the commissioning of that advice from government, needs to be made transparent and also we would go further that governments need to be clear when they use scientific advice and when they don't so that we as the public know what decisions

such as eat out to help out which was not based on scientific advice and we can make our decisions accordingly we've had a message in from one of our listeners saying listening to ruthie henshaw my mother died in her care home we weren't able to see her except through a window for nearly a year. If I'd been able to sit with her and keep her company, her last few months wouldn't have been so heartbreaking. Ruthie, what else would you like to see? What would you like the legacy of this to be? That people's mental health and people's right to, you know, for family and, you know, kindness and touch. When I finally got in, it was five weeks, before my mother passed away.

Yeah. And I put my arms around her, and she moaned in my arms and cried because it was the first time that somebody had held her in a year. Yeah. That's just unthinkable, unthinkable to me, because, of course, there were some beautiful carers in the home, but they had all these people to go and see every day

who were all isolated in different rooms and I just want to make sure that that Gloria's Law is in place so that this never, ever happens again, please. Ruthie Henshaw, yes, we completely support that. Yeah, thank you. Ruthie and Naomi, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning.

Ruthie Henshaw and Naomi follow up there. 84844 is the number to text. Whatever your thoughts and opinions and feelings are this morning, please get in touch with me and let me know. Now, another chance to hear an interview I did last month. Melinda French Gates is the most well-known and powerful woman in philanthropy. In 2000, she co-founded the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation,

which has to date donated over $100 billion to charitable projects. Born in Texas to a Catholic family, Melinda's father was an aerospace engineer. She studied computer science at her all-girls school. Again, computer science and economics at Duke University. Then after getting an MBA, she started at Microsoft as one of the few female managers at the company. And in 1987, she became the general manager of information products. She and Bill Gates married in 1994 and divorced in 2021 after 27 years of marriage. Melinda has since left their joint venture and set up her own pivotal ventures, which has one purpose to put power in the hands of women.

I asked her about being a female leader, and now that she attends meetings without her husband, whether she's treated differently, has she seen a change? I think the changes are even more in myself. I'm all the more self-confident in my decisions. Look, again, I sat at that table for over 25 years in the Gates Foundation. But now I have my full voice. I'm not sharing it with somebody else. I'm not waiting for their questions. I'm not responding to their questions. I know how I want to invest my money.

And so I feel I've stepped into my full power. And that feels great because I can be a fully integrated person. I can say what I believe. I can invest where I believe. I can use my voice the way I'm saying to my son and my daughters. Use your voice in society. Stand up for what you believe in. How quickly did that change happen?

I would say it took a little bit of time. I was certainly ready for it. But, you know, again, I've been conditioned to something for over 25 years. And so, you know, it took, I would say maybe a year for me to say, okay, no, no, no, no, I've got this. I've totally got this. Your most recent book, The Next Day, is all about transitions. It covers the death of a dear friend, becoming a mother, your divorce. and you say in it that growth really happened when you turned 60. How?

I think partly in writing that book and in reflecting, I realize that during transitions, some of them you want to make, like you move maybe from secondary school to another school, some of them happen to you. But I learn that during those transitions, even the difficult ones, is where the growth happens and the change happens. and there can be beauty on the other side. And so I feel like at 60, I really could step into those learnings. I really enjoyed the bits in the book where you talk about listening to your inner voice and really paying attention to what was being told and dreaming about your divorce

before you realize that you were going to take the step. Yeah. I think sometimes, I'll say for myself, sometimes I wanted to turn away at times. And I think this is true. At least I know for my other female friends who I'm deeply close to, we sort of want to turn away sometimes from the hard truths or the things we need to face. And I think until we listen to our inner voice, or at least for me, I couldn't take those courageous steps that I needed to take. And so for me, people find their inner voice in different places. For me, it's in quiet, it's in journaling, it's in walking in nature, sometimes talking to a trusted friend.

And all I could say is for myself, I knew it was time for me to turn towards my inner voice, listen to it and take action. And you also talk about how you were grateful for your sort of Catholic upbringing and the school that you went to that sort of encouraged you to sit in silence and listen to your inner voice. 100%. And following on from that, just to stay with faith, two questions. First of all, I thought it was interesting that, you know, Melinda Gates thought, how am I going to tell my character? Catholic parents about my divorce. Mm-hmm. For sure.

I was nervous about that. And they were 1,000% supportive of me. Well, that's good to hear. Mm-hmm. But you had been brought up feeling what shame or what could this bring up with them, which I think is interesting, women, right? How well, society puts things on us, whether it's our workplaces, whether it's our religions.

And so I think it's important for us to really look inside of ourselves and say, Why do I believe that? Is that true? Could I think in a different way about this issue? And faith is important to you. You are a Catholic, but also you're working in women's health. And contraceptive is very important for women's health. So how do those two sit together? I had to really, again, go through some inner searching and some learning about the Catholic faith that I did around 2010. I actually brought in a number of religious scholars from the Catholic faith to teach me. how did the Catholic religion get to where it was on contraceptives? And I realized, and I had literally seen women in the developing world in life and death situations who said, I need to space the

births of my children to keep the ones I have healthy and alive. And so as I learned that those were man-made decisions on contraceptives, I realized I need to question this truth because I know what I'm seeing in low-income countries. And I know I use contraceptives. I know what I believe. So now I'm going to step out and use my voice to go against this literally man-made rule. Have you had any backlash? Yes, I absolutely had backlash from the Catholic Church at the time. I know some people now decide they're not going to follow me. That's okay. But what I know to be true is that when a woman can time and space the births of her children, she's healthier. the children are healthier and more likely to get educated.

Your education, as I mentioned, was important to you, your love of computer science being encouraged by it from a very young age. The number of women going into computer science is rising here in the UK, but slowly. Would you like to see those figures rise? And is it more important now than ever with the rise of AI and the number of men who are responsible for programming it, leading to what some might see as biased results that we get women in the world. the industry. I think it is vital that we get more women into technology. And in fact, in the United

States, I make quite a bit of investments in this because what I know to be true is that when women have a seat at the table in the creation of new technology, I was there luckily at Microsoft in the early days. We do change things. The discussion changes. And we can point out some of the bias and get that taken out. So I believe women should be in all places in society at a equal level. And technology, particularly AI, is literally changing our lives as we speak. So you've got to have women and people of color at the table. So we don't bake in bias. And so even the narratives about AI that are being given out in society are not all male focused. They're more, you know, hey, this is how it can help us. This is where it can help us in health. This is where it can help us

get further in the law. And so I absolutely believe women need to be there at the table at the creation and during the design and creative process. And how do we encourage that to happen? I think we show young women examples of other women in technology succeeding. We show them these can be creative careers. We give them scholars. We show them role models. We know role modeling, particularly in computer science, makes an enormous difference for young women. Even computer camps, I know in the United States, literally we've surveyed girls afterwards, whether they will persist and we track them, has to do with who the role models are in the room. And even the posters on the walls, if they're all males, they're less likely to persist.

If they see females on the walls and teaching them, they're more likely to keep going. So how did you navigate your own career, those early days, when you were one of the few women in that tech environment. It was hard. That is the truth. I found other women. There were a few others in the company. And I found, let's be clear, we need male allies. I found great men in the company who were for women and who would speak up and say, no, no, no, she has a point to make. Oh, wait a second. You overspoke her, right? So I found allies and then I used to step into the conversation, lean forward into the conversation, don't lean back, even when people are trying to talk over me or shouting or doing the boys' debate club. And I learned to then step into my voice and my power, but it took

time. You've spoken a lot about the great privilege that you have. And when I knew I was going to be talking to you, the phrase, and it's from Spider-Man kept coming back to you. With great power comes great responsibility. You have privilege, but you have great power as well. And you and your ex-husband bill chose to set up the Gates Foundation. And now you're doing Pivotal, which is because you are a philanthropist. How do you feel about sort of fellow billionaires and where they choose to spend their money? Well, I look at others who have great privilege, and I try to motivate the ones who I think are movable to give some of that money away. And honestly, to give a substantial proportion away.

because what I know is they will be better off in that giving and the world is likely to be better off. And so my way is to try to inspire them and particularly for this women's health cause, I think I'm already talking to others of great wealth who are saying, oh, no, no, I care about that. How are you doing it? Oh, okay, I will invest alongside of you.

And so those are the ones that I speak with the most and figure out what are ways forward. And this is a personal question, but, you know, we've had a very personal conversation. How do you instill sort of values in your children, your three children, when it comes to, you know, they've grown up in such a rarefied world. How do you make sure their feet are still on the ground? Yes. Well, as they were growing up, they're all in their 20s now.

I'm so proud of them. They're all adults. But as they were growing up, I really kept my middle class family in mind growing up, the chores we had, the allowance we had. And honestly, the values my parents had. And so even though they were living in this very privileged situation, I really said to them, look, you're going to have an allowance and you're going to have limits and you're going to have boundaries. You're not going to get a fancy car when you turn 16 and get your driver's license. Like I took these steps along the way with them. And I have to be honest, I took them out to see the world, to see our backyard in Seattle, the parts that aren't. great, to see homelessness, to go out in Africa when they were young many times, to have them understand how great their privilege was and that they did have a responsibility to give something back. And when you're in a difficult moment, Melinda, and you're searching for your purpose, who do you reach to? I talk about in my book, my Truth Council, I have three women that I walk

with every single Monday morning I'm in town. And I turn to them and I say, this is what I'm wrestling with. What do you think? And they really will tell me the truth. Or if they can't tell me the truth in the moment, they'll circle back and they'll remind me what I do have inside, right? And so I really count on my female friendships and I'm very lucky to have many of them. We all need a truth counsel, don't we? And you can hear the full interview that I did with Melinda French Gates by going to BBC Sounds and searching for Woman's Hour on Friday the 3rd of October.

Now, have you heard about the CBB's Parenting Download? It's the brand new podcast that unpacks the stories that have got parents talking from viral trends and dilemmas to the news stories lighting up group chats. Hosted by Radio One presenter and new mum, Katie Thistleton

and Mobo Award-winning rapper and dad of two, Governor B. CBB's parenting download offers practical information, expert advice, and support to help families through the crucial early years. Episode one tackles one of the hardest conversations, how to talk to children about death. Author and McFly, frontman Tom Fletcher,

joins the podcast to offer some advice, as well as therapist Amanda Orange, who shared practical tips to make those moments easier. It's a really thought-provoking conversation, and you can listen in on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. Also on iPlayer, just search. CBB's parenting download.

The next episode drops tomorrow and discusses. the hot topic of sharenting. What do you need to know if you're going to share your children's lives online? And if you want to get in touch about anything you've heard on the program today,

you can text Woman's Hour on 84844. You can also follow us at BBC Woman's Hour on social media. And we're having a very thought-provoking program this morning. Lots of you are getting in touch

about life lessons and legacies left by your loved ones. A message here is saying my lovely nan Valerie always said no one's going to get off a horse to look at you which is a great phrase which I now appreciate speaks to pointless vanity. I'm not very fussed about how I look at what people think and I owe it to that wonderful woman

going to write that one down no one's going to get off a horse to look at you very good. Sam in Birdport says my father-in-law Hugh embraced life in every way his family his friends his art and every opportunity that came his way he taught me to celebrate wherever possible outwardly and inwardly since he died my mantra has become simply be more hue and another one here saying my mum jenny died when I was 16 from breast cancer when she was just 45 I've always known that the way I move through the world has been

shaped by the way I was loved by her she taught me how to live a big fat juicy life and how so much of the joy and so much of the good stuff is found in everyday moments with the people we cherish and these are lovely to read so please them keep them coming in. 84844 is the text number. Now, the World Health Organization Europe has conducted a first of its kind analysis of the various health and support policies for survivors of violence in 53 member states of the WHO European region. It's called care, courage, change. And it reveals that most, almost one in three women and girls age 15 years and older will experience physical and or sexual violence in their

lifetime. For millions of survivors, the health system is the first and often the only place they turn to for help, yet data reveals that the health sector fails nearly one in three survivors. Well, to discuss the findings, I'm joined now by Melanie Hyde, the WHO's Europe's gender equality and human rights technical officer, who's the report's author and a survivor herself. Melanie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Tell me a bit more about the reports, what you were looking into, but also how you started going about conducting something on such a huge scale. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, it was it was quite a large endeavor with a small but mighty team, as we say. But we thought it was an opportune time to not only look at the WHO prevalence

estimates, which of course came out just yesterday, but also to combine that with what we're doing at a policy level. So in terms of what member states were doing to actually support violence against women and girls in policy, and we found that important to connect together in one report. So we've worked on this for the last six months or so, and what we have is, I think, a clear roadmap for member states in terms of the work we really need to do in the health sector.

Okay, so what are the most alarming figures you came across? Well, I mean, I think the most alarming thing is that less than 40% of the member states in our region, and the WHO region is 53 member states, so it's broader than the EU. Less than 40% actually have the full package of WHO components of post-rape care in policy. And that's really alarming.

I mean, that's life-saving care. That's post-exposure prophylaxis for HIV. That's safe abortion services. It's emergency contraception. It's mental health assessment and referrals. it's life-saving care, and it's not there in policy. So that's a real concern for us in the health sector. Yeah, where are those failings and what needs to be implemented?

So, I mean, the starting point is policy. We see a lot of multisectual policy on ballots against women and girls, and that's fantastic. That's been a shift, I think, over the last 10 years or so. But that needs to be reflected in health sector-specific policy. So you need to have guidance, you need to have guidelines and progress. protocols, and that's where we see the missing link. So we want countries to look at the policy framework and look what's missing and check

that that's there, because if it's not in policy, then it's not going to be in practice. The report states that nearly one third of countries still require healthcare workers to report domestic or intimate partner violence, but the WHO strongly advises against this. Why is that? Look, reporting particularly intimate partner violence to police without the consent of a survivor, it breaches patient autonomy, confidentiality, and also has been known to deter women from seeking help. What we encourage is actually supporting women to report to police, but certainly not doing that against their wishes, because actually if we respect the wishes of survivors, survivors are no better.

their own circumstances. They know the risks better than anyone and they know when it's safe to report. And if police are actually explaining the kinds of protection and measures that are available to women, then women can make that choice themselves. What we want is that the health sector can be a safe space for them to access comprehensive healthcare without the need to file a police report first. So we have to safeguard that space for survivors. So healthcare workers have a huge role to play here and you're a survivor yourself what training needs to be provided to ensure women are supported i mean it's difficult you know because you know i'm a survivor but it took me about 20 25 years to actually be able to say that um and that was from the help of two wonderful mental health

professionals um that helped me to be able to recognize that it wasn't my fault what happened to me um you know I was a child and often I could only do that because I had my own child and it was out of a desire not to pass trauma on to her actually. And I've been in a privileged position to have access to high quality health care my whole life. So imagine for someone else how that would be for them in terms of the barriers to accessing care. So I think we need to understand the complexity of disclosure and how difficult that is for survivors. And so we need to train health care professionals how to understand signs of violence, but how to respond in an empathetic, non-judgmental way.

Because unfortunately, we still blame survivors for what happened to them as a society. And that's reflected also in the healthcare system, unfortunately. So we have to change that through changing people's practices by helping them understand and respond to disclosure, but also to be able to provide that safe. space for women to go to their family doctor and actually feel safe to be able to talk about what's happening to them. You looked at 53 countries, all with their own distinct cultures and different policies around healthcare. Like, what an absolute minefield. How do you tackle the situation in each individual country, if you like? Yeah, I mean, that's the difficult

part. I mean, we analyse 241 policies from across the region. Yeah. And so we're not Looking at the legal framework either. We're looking at the policy framework. And that's an important distinction for many of our member states. But that's where we see the changes happen. Because if health sector is guided by health sector policies. So it's important that it's there. And when it's not there, then it's very difficult for it to be provided consistently

across the country and across the health system. What are the biggest barriers? The barriers. I mean, it's, I think, mandatory reporting is a big one. The blanket reporting. I think it's a lack of good coordination, multisectual coordination. So it's not just about having, you know, a ministry of gender equality, a minister focusing on violence, that needs to be part of the health sector. The health sector needs to be strong and working with other sectors on this issue. And I think it's the barriers also, language, financial, culture. barriers, also with the bias and stigma of health care workers, and also a lack of understanding

about the types of violence that we're seeing, particularly these really hidden forms of violence because it's so stigmatised in our societies. Sure, because what we're talking about is just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't include psychological abuse, trafficking, forced marriage, femicide. Exactly. I mean, these are the only two forms that we actually can measure at the moment, and that's linked to the Sustainable Development Goals. But don't forget that the MGGs didn't include these targets. So the Millennium Development Goals didn't include them,

and there was a lot of pushing to try to get these as part of the SDGs. And at the moment and at the rate we're going, we're not going to even meet them for 2030. So we have a lot of work to do. So what are your recommendations? Look, we have to mandate the full package of essential services. Member states need to look at their policy framework, ensure that it is aligned with WHO guidance. We have new guidance that's coming out next year in terms of what works.

So that's the first thing. The second is remove barriers to care. Look at the mandatory reporting regime. Are we complying with human rights standards? Are we respecting the rights and wishes of survivors through the process? And look at the needs of special groups. We have to look at migrant women. We have to look at women with disabilities.

women with special needs, they need special support to access services. And the third one, and the most important, is investment. This can't be done without resources. In this context of where we see budget shrinking, often it's these issues that get cut first, and actually they need to be prioritised. And finally, give us an example of best practice, and also how does the UK fare?

Where do we fit into all of this? So we don't like to single out any particular country, although you'll see in the report that there's examples of good practices and that's what we want to focus on. And I'm here actually in Madrid where we've launched the report with the government of Spain

and when we look at countries that do have the multi-sectoral policy, they have the health sector policies and the guidelines. Spain is one of the few that have all three. So that is a measure of good practice, but we know that this takes long-term investment. So there's no country that's actually

got a perfect system. We know that. But it's a matter of looking at the evidence translating that into improving quality services on the ground. And every member state has work to do. Do you have the power to do it? Who has the power to make every member state implement this? Well, we're lucky enough in the European region,

and I heard earlier talk about male allyship, that Dr. Hans Henry Klug, the WHO Regional Director, has championed this issue. He's made it a special initiative for the next five years as part of our European program of work. And it's thanks to him that this is getting the coverage that it is that member states are standing up and committing. We actually had France, the Minister of Health of France, joined the special initiative yesterday online. So we're seeing the political will and now we have to come through and actually support member states to make these important changes.

Melanie Hyde, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me this morning. And we have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care saying the NHS and wider healthcare system has a vital role in tackling violence against women and girls with healthcare professionals, often the first lifeline for domestic abuse victims, supporting them to overcome trauma and rebuild their lives. As part of the 10-year health plan, we're improving the response to domestic abuse in healthcare settings,

ensuring there's no wrong front door for people to turn to. 844 is the text number. I'm just going to read out a couple more of your messages. My dad said to me when he was in hospital, wouldn't you rather do something that pays less but makes you happy. In July 2024, I left teaching and I'm listening to Women's Hour whilst grooming Bella

one of my regulars and I am happy, although we live a totally different frugal life on a third of the money Dad was right. And Jackie says, my auntie, a very fit 88-year-old tells me all the time, don't let the couch become your coffin. I've

stuck to this mantra and with her in mind at 66, I'm walking the 630 miles southwest coastal path next year. Go, Jackie. Well done, Auntie Marjorie as well. Keep them coming in. Now, Andrea Gibson, Colorado Poet Laureate and activist could fill concert halls with their spoken word poetry. They did that for the last time in May 2024 as part of their bucket list of sorts, things they wanted to do before they died of terminal cervical cancer. We see part of their performance in a new documentary, Come See Me in the Good Light, which won the festival favourite,

award at the Sundance Film Festival at the start of this year. The film documents Andrea navigating their diagnosis and their relationship with their wife, Megan Fally, also a writer and poet, who joins me now, along with the documentary's producer Jessica Hargrave. Before I speak to them both, first, let's hear a little of Andrea Gibson and part of their poem, Life Anthem, from the film. The next morning my phone buzzed in my pocket. several large masses on ovaries

malignancy suspected I couldn't feel my hands they'd got numb from trying to hold on to everyone I had ever loved this is the beginning of a nightmare I thought a diagnosis that my doctors would later declare incurable my worst fear come true but stay with me all

because my story is one about happiness, being easier to find. Once we realize we do not have forever to find it. Beautiful words. Megan and Jessica, welcome to Woman's Hour. Megan, in the film, we hear that when you first found out that Andrea had a crush on you, you described them as the James Dean of Poetry. I think we should start by talking about Andrea. What were they like?

You know, I think that the world sort of knew Andrea to be this truth-teller and this very heart-centered, sage, wise poet. And Andrea was absolutely all of those things. But what I fell in love with about Andrea and what I'm so grateful that the film showcases is that Andrea was also a hilarious goofball. And as brilliant as they were, they were also an adorable dummy. And I'm just so glad that there's art out there that shows the prismatic versions of who they were. We get privileged access into your life, your love story. I have to say, the film will stay with me for a very long time. I'm telling everybody I know to watch it. Everyone, watch it.

Also, I will be watching it again. What made you want to make the film? we had since andrew's cancer diagnosis we had really been living with so much love and presence and joy and dancing and singing that that had surprised us and we could feel that what we were doing with our time together could be a gift for other people a lesson for other people um beauty for other people and about it was three years into the diagnosis and we'd gotten very difficult news when we were approached and asked if we wanted to do a documentary and we felt like oh man like this time that's coming up it could be harder to stay as present and as loving as we are but maybe with introducing the witness element the camera element it might remind us to continue to live as we'd already been living in a way that could be a gift for others.

It takes the right team, though. It takes a lot of trust because when I was watching it, I thought they must have somebody that they completely trust behind the camera in order to get this access. Jessica, were you there? I was there. I had the privilege of being at every shoot for this film and it is the great privilege of my career and my personal life as well. But I was hesitant to do it in honesty.

I think I had a preconceived notion. not only of what poetry was, but how one should feel when faced with death. And I think that neither of those sounded particularly fun to me, and so I was hesitant. But then we watched, my partner, Ryan White, and I watched a performance of Andreas and saw how magnetic they were on a stage

and then listened to Andrea and Meg talk about how they had chosen instead of feeling this sadness and fear, which of course was present. they were was present excuse me they were also really focused on finding the love and the joy and the time and it was really quite a lesson for me as well yeah to observe the relationship up close and change your perspective on poetry yes it did do that I will admit that my understanding was wrong I thought poetry was something I had to learn in school you know and I really had my eyes open to what it is and what it can be I mean Andrea I was a rock star in the poetry world and

I just want to pick up on something you said at the beginning about how you were living this very presence and loving life. That was a conscious decision, wasn't it? Because Andrea says at the beginning of the film that their life had always been about touring, but then they decided when they got the diagnosis to just be at home. Yeah, I mean, some of that was forced upon us because Andrea had had health issues prior, and so we were very quarantined with COVID, and then stayed that way. Andrea would actually probably say here right now that the awakening that they experienced was not a choice post their diagnosis, but something given to them by grace. They woke up with that news. I guess woke up in every sense of everything.

of the word. And they really lived in a very bliss out state post-diagnosis for a year, naturally. And then after that year, that sort of became their own benchmark of living. So anytime that Andrea's slipped into feeling, woe is me, or any ungrateful, perhaps feeling, they would hold themselves to the standard that that they'd been blessed with of i gotta get back to andrew would call it the palm of god there's a moment in the film where they're in a car with a friend and i can't remember what the friend had spoken to andrew about but their reaction was just translate every feeling you're having as love and it it blew my mind yeah yeah her friend her her her father had passed from cancer and she was struggling to accept it and Andrea said all of the fear

everything every feeling that you're feeling name it love yeah um it is very powerful and very um yeah very very moving um how much of what we see was planned and how much is fly on the wall nothing was planned i mean if you when you see the film you'll see there's essentially two locations it's like a home and a hospital um and we had asked and meg what do you all do and they said not much but at that point um both of them had really realized the value of not much you know the value of the little things and as much as we place this value on big trips and sort of grand adventures why why don't we place that same value on taking a walk or riding a two-seater bike so uh we would show up and often andry would say what do you

want to do today and we would say what are you doing today and then that was it we rolled from morning to night we had a very small crew um because we were very much in their space and we just would say whatever you're doing we just want to be there with you we also get an insight into your world and your community because your community and your friendship groups is very important to you every time you get um you get a diet a new report from the hospital you have to phone your your friends tell tell me more the importance of this community? So a lot of Andrea's friends also happen to be their ex-girlfriends spanning about 30 years. And even when Andrea died, there were four ex-girlfriends there in the room with us. And in the queer community, Andrea's therapist has said that so many of us lose so much

family that when we find people we call family, we'll do anything not to let them go. And And I, I, we were both, yeah, surrounded by, well, I think the idea that love doesn't necessarily end, but it changes shape. And that felt true with Andrea's exes who'd become our friends. And I think it feels true for me now that Andrea is no longer Earthside, but that love hasn't gone anywhere. Have you seen the film? Have I seen the film? I've seen it about, I don't know, 20 times maybe. It's a really, the privilege is not lost on me that I've not only lost my partner, my spouse,

in a time where we're lucky enough to have, you know, photographs and videos, and I don't have to just rely on my memory, but also a time where the very rare experience if there's actually a whole film about our love story. I feel really lucky to have it now. And it is a love story. I mean, your eyes, the way you look at each other, there's so much to learn about communication for starters. Yes, completely.

I mean, we didn't know as much about Megan, but when we started, we were learning about Andrea. And I said when I first found out about Megan, I was like, what's worse than one poet? I can't imagine evering. Yes, yes. But then got to know Megan and really realized that it wasn't just a story about Andrea and their life. It was a story about their love story.

And I've taken so much from them. They give each other so much space. They allow each other to feel. You can feel whatever you got to feel. But I'm going to tell you how it affects me is one of the lines that Andrea says in the film. And so I learned so much from them and we realized that it was as much about Megan as it was about Andrea. Yes. and how you were there, even when they initially tried to push you away, but you persisted.

Where did that come from? I think that I always had a vision of, because our relationship had struggled prior to the diagnosis, I think we were on our way to calling it quits. But I always knew there was always this kernel for me of what our relationship could be. if all of the nonsense fell off of us, all of the human protections. And I was just also woken up to my love for Andrea and our possibility and hope upon. It wasn't the news of the diagnosis, but it was finding out Andrea had the masses on their ovaries and leaning in that direction.

And I just, I don't know. I think my soul spoke more than my humanity in that moment of just we are absolutely meant to do this thing together. And it was so connected every moment after that. I'm going to read a few of these messages. We've got some really beautiful messages and poignant messages coming in from our listeners. If you don't mind, may I? Yep. My beautiful boy, Fergus, died three and a half years ago today.

For homework, he had to write his motto for life. Having endured cancer treatment, this was his. Don't be saddened by the bad things and be grateful for the good. No good or bad thing lasts forever. Forever my love and motivation. Thank you for sharing that with us. Jane says, for me it was my aunt, Jane, who at the age of 53, started a full-on career working for the New York Times after a life as a trailing spouse to my journalist

uncle. She taught me that it's never too late for reinvention for a brand new rewarding chapter in life and to have a real impact. How's your writing coming along, Megan? Have you finished your memoir? I'm very, very, very close. And what feels beautiful for me in that practice is Andrew was my editor and I was theirs and we spent so much time doing that. that that I there was a part there would be a point in time where I thought how can I finish this without Andrea and now I actually feel their voice so internalized in my head where I feel like I know exactly what they would say about how to edit a line or what to add or what was missing and it's usually to put my heart in it good lesson good lesson for us all thank you so much

for coming in and speaking to me, Megan and Jessica. And the film is available to see. It's called Come See Me in the Good Light and it's now on Apple TV. That's it from me today. Thank you for all your messages. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Women's Hour at 4pm. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm Kimberly Wilson. I'm a psychologist and in my new podcast, Complex, I'll be your guide through all the information and misinformation that's out there about mental health. I'm joined by expert guests covering topics from people-pleasing to perfectionism, burnout to empathy, to find tangible advice so we can understand ourselves a little better. Complex with me, Kimberly Wilson. Listen on BBC Sounds.