Woman's Hour - Covid vaccines and women, Paris Lees & Nero's women

Episode Date: May 28, 2021

Some women and trans men are reporting unusual symptoms after having their Covid vaccinations – ranging from menstrual irregularities to bleeding post menopause. We talk to the reproductive immunologist Dr Viki Male from Imperial College in London to find out what’s behind these symptoms and also consider the issue of vaccine hesitancy amongst young women, vaccination during pregnancy and the impact of Covid and the vaccine on breast feeding mums. Of the twelve judges on the Supreme Court – the highest court in the land – all are white and only two are women. So what needs to be done to increase diversity within the UK judicial system, and what obstacles remain in place today? Vicky Fox, the Chief Executive of the Supreme Court, and Stephanie Boyce, President of the Law Society discuss. Paris Lees is a journalist, anti-bullying campaigner, and a Contributing Editor at British Vogue. She was the first openly trans woman to present on BBC Radio 1, and also the first to appear on Question Time. She’s written a memoir called What it Feels like for a Girl, which covers the period aged 13 to 18 – a turbulent, heady time full of adventure and disaster. Nero was the 5th Emperor of Rome and one of its most infamous rulers, notorious for his cruelty, debauchery and eccentricity. He ruled at a time of great social and political change, overseeing momentous events such as the Great Fire of Rome and Boudica’s rebellion in Britain. He allegedly killed his mother and his two wives, only cared about his art and had very little interest in ruling the empire. The writer and classicist Natalie Haynes has been to see a new exhibition of Nero at the British Museum in London and tells us how the women in his life shaped his reign.We asked listeners to tell us about the groups of friends they were desperate to meet up with when Covid regulations allowed. Chris from Cardiff wanted to celebrate the women she's known for more than 50 years as they planned a big night out together and our reporter Jo Morris eavesdropped on the banter and the memories.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Did someone say sunny bank holiday weekend? It's what we've all been waiting for, isn't it? With restrictions easing and the option of actually going out. I want to hear what you're looking forward to doing this weekend. There was the Friends reunion on TV.

Are you having your own Friends reunion? Are you planning on getting your legs out? I actually painted my toenails in anticipation last night. Text me on 84844. You can tweet us via our social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email via our website. And lots of you getting in touch via Twitter.

Jack Thomason says, barbecue tomorrow, then an hour's walk to town and trying to find a suit for a mate's wedding on Sunday, which will helpfully get rid of the hangover. Sounds great. Just trying to sort out a swim,

says Ian J. France. Around Sheffield, we are blessed with many beautiful locations. Indeed, we are. Jen says she's gardening if the weather permits. But firstly, quite rightly, she's checking out what Monty Don says are the jobs for the weekend. And Gary says, morning, Anita. Morning, Gary.

He says he's off to West London on Sunday for two nights. Ooh, fancy. He's off out west. Well, whatever your plans, get in touch and share them. We'd love a bit of joy this Friday. And also share your thoughts on anything you hear on the programme. We actively encourage it. And we have so much for you on the show today. Some history in the form of Roman Emperor Nero, murder, incest, orgies or not. Natalie Haynes will be giving us a fresh perspective

on the women around him. A top book recommendation. Paris Lees has written her powerful memoir, and my goodness, it's affecting the story of class, identity, and finding where you belong. Paris will be telling us all about it shortly. Social change. It's what we're all about here on Woman's Hour. Today, we're discussing what needs to happen in the legal system to make it more equal by talking to two seriously impressive women at the top of their profession who now want to make a difference. We're also talking about our health, specifically around the vaccine.

I'll be talking to a reproductive immunologist about our concerns around the vaccine, how it may or may not affect our periods, menopause and fertility. So if you have any questions, maybe you've noticed your periods were different or you've just heard rumours that are making you feel a certain way, do get in touch. I'll put your queries to Dr Vicky Mayle in the show. And as it is, fingers crossed, going to be a long, hot weekend,

we are taking you out. We are all going out out with a bunch of mates in Cardiff. So much to do, so we best get on with it. Remember, you can get in touch. It's 84844. If you'd like to text, you can email via the website. And of course, social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, Paris Lees is a journalist, anti-bullying campaigner

and a contributing editor of the British Vogue. She was the first openly trans woman to present on Radio 1 and also the first to appear on Question Time. She's written a memoir called What It Feels Like for a Girl, which covers the period age 13 to 18, a turbulent, traumatic and heady time full of adventure, heartbreak and disaster. Well, she's brave, bold and beautiful. And Paris Lees joins us now to tell us all about it. Paris, welcome to Woman's Hour. First of all, congratulations on writing this memoir.

It came out this week. How do you feel? Oh, Anita, thank you so much for the lovely, lovely introduction. And I'm really happy to be talking to you about it today. It's so surreal because you know I've been writing this book for seven years and I almost became the person that was writing a book and I just I thought I was going to be doing that until I died you know and to be at this stage where I'm on the radio talking to you about it and people are saying nice things and

it's it's in the charts and I keep I'm just constantly pinching myself at the moment it's it's it's utterly surreal. Well I'm not surprised because it is a very affecting read. Why did it take you seven years to write it? Well listen it's it's dealing with some really difficult issues you know um and uh it's it's showing life at that time for me in all of its ugliness really and um and it shows my ugliness as well you know I I I don't particularly like the version of myself that appears in this book you know I do some pretty bad things I make some pretty poor decisions and and there's a lot of pain there's a lot of trauma but you know there's also a lot of fun there's a lot of joy so so that stuff was was was great to revisit but some of

these things have been really difficult and and finding a way to tell this story that sort of honors the other people that are in it, because it was really important to me, for instance, that my friend, Steffi, who is Lady Di in the book, you know, that I was doing her justice and that she was happy with how she was presented. My family, you know, there are certain things that I'd have liked to have explained more about why certain people were the way they were with me you know but that wasn't my story to tell so it was a very very complicated thing to write well it's written beautifully you write it in the style of a novel it reads like a novel and you're you the protagonist is called Byron and we meet you at age 13 and you set it out so brilliantly. I mean,

my reaction to the book was visceral in the opening chapter where you, you know, you set, you questioned the morality and the judgment of the society around you and you just want out. So tell us about the place you grew up, Hucknall. What's Hucknall like or what was it like? Well, I hated my hometown growing up and I was desperately, desperately unhappy and, you know, would have done anything to escape and did do anything to escape. I was I was I've realized that I was an escapologist. I would I would literally contort my body, you know, to climb out of windows climb over the wall up through the coal grate um to escape into the night and you know I just wanted to leave and did as soon as I was 16 but you know looking back on it now and looking at the town today it's probably quite a nice place to raise kids and have a family you know but I

think it was uniquely uh miserable for me at that time because there wasn't any understanding of what to do with a kid like me and you know there are some real issues with with a town like that I grew up feeling like you know that my voice didn't matter that that my life was going to be crap am I allowed to say that? Yeah. You know? And if anyone is offended, we apologise, but it's okay. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm trying to keep it Radio 4 for you. I, you know, I thought the best that I could do in my life is maybe possibly one day get a council house and maybe work in a bar or something like that. And obviously somebody in my position I didn't even think that those things would be available to me so I think the the analogy that I would describe is you know like you sort of get those towns have been forgotten so you're sort of getting the scraps from the big table and then if if you don't conform you know in

in across some other sort of um system of oppression so for me it was being trans then you don't even get a seat at the at the non-seat table if that makes sense so you know it it was tough in lots of different ways but you know I spend a lot of time you know thinking about the life that I could have had there now and I feel hugely nostalgic and I often think wouldn't it be nice to live next door to somebody that you went to school with? Wouldn't it be nice to have children with somebody that you have been married to for 15 years, you know, and have my auntie come and babysit my children and just be ordinary, I guess, you know, so. But that wasn't your experience. That wasn't your experience of

growing up there and one of the things that comes out in the book Paris is is the violence that you experience you there's one scene I mean so many scenes in this book that are memorable and really leave a lasting impression with you but you get beaten up by bullies on your way home from school and then you're beaten up by your dad for standing up to the bullies? Well, it was violent. It was a violent world in many ways. And it was violent for lots of different people in lots of different ways. You know, there was domestic abuse.

A friend of mine was beaten up by the BNP when she was a school kid still you know this is a violent world that we're talking about here and um you know I've been kicked in the teeth you know I've been you know given clips around the ear hole for for talking like a pufter um and I I remember it you know and I want to I want to talk it. And it's been so difficult for me. And it's why I wanted to inject all of the fun and the excitement into the story, because how do you talk about your experiences and the trauma that you've experienced without sort of becoming a professional victim,

which I feel many trans people have been forced to sort of be professional victims. So I really struggled with that. But that was my reality. And I think that we should we should have a conversation about this. You know, why? Why did I have to grow up feeling like that? And I think I say at one point, I'm not hurting anybody. Why can't they just leave me alone? Why can't they leave me be? Why can't I just walk home in peace and the fact is I didn't feel safe around my hometown at all not just sometimes my whole

childhood I felt in danger constantly and you were you were in many ways because you you talk about there are unflinching accounts of abuse that you suffered when you were very, very young. And you start having sex with adult men in public toilets and you talk about it. And I think it's really important that we talk about it now, but also how you coped with writing about that abuse. Well, it was really difficult. And I think it's fair to say that I've had a couple of mental health breakdowns over the past seven years, another reason why it's taken so long. And this is a really difficult thing to put out there. I mean, do you think that I want that out there? Do you think I want when I meet men for them to Google me for that to be on my Wikipedia

page for that to be part of my official sort of of story now but the fact is that did happen I was vulnerable we know that many children particularly in towns like this are vulnerable to abuse and being taken advantage of by predatory older men we know this we see it happening again and again you know all different stratas of society we also know that lgbt kids are particularly vulnerable we know that they're at risk for suicide and we also know that family rejection is is a big factor in all of that so you know i wish it could have been different anita i really really do wish that it could have been different, but it was what it was. And I want to face it now and I want to talk about it because you know that if it happened to me, it's still happening to people today.

And I read a story just this week of a 12 year old boy who his family described him as a really sweet, sensitive, caring boy. And he was bullied violently. I think it was violent but he was bullied homophobically and he was he was frightened to go back to school and he took his life so this is in the news this week and I do sound like a bleeding heart liberal but I can't sleep at night knowing that there are children that are afraid to go back to school. I don't want to live in that society. I don't want that to be this country. And we need to make sure that everybody feels safe, whether it's girls that are being harassed.

We know that they're facing increasing sexual harassment at school, whether it's homophobic bullying, whether it's transphobic bullying. We need to protect kids and make sure that they are safe and that they're looked after and that we are doing right by by the kids in our society well you know by sharing your trauma so openly in the book Paris you will have opened a conversation which is why we're talking about it now and it's really important to have it you were 14 when that happened to you how do you view those men now who came looking for sex with someone underage? and I'm quite unjudgmental in the book because it's written from the perspective of me at that time and I wanted to illustrate how somebody can be taken advantage of in that context

really and truly some of those men should probably be in prison you know but I also make the point that they're not these kind of bogeymen, you know, that sort of exist in our deepest, darkest fears. They are people's husbands, they are people's brothers, they are people's fathers, and they are in towns like that, you know, and it's a problem and it's an issue. And also as well, we keep hearing about how trans people are the problem in society, you know, and how, how we are a huge danger to everybody else. And I felt increasingly uncomfortable using public toilets over the past few years, because I'm paranoid that my presence is not welcome. And if somebody perceives me as trans,

or if they recognize me um that that's going to be an issue and and also I don't want them to feel uncomfortable and it's just so galling to me because I have I have been in danger in those spaces and I've spoken about it publicly and I just wonder Anita where is the public conversation about that because we all know what a rent boy is don't we we've all heard that term right so we know that this was we knew it was happening we didn't want to talk about it we didn't want to face it well that did happen to me and and I want to have a conversation about that now well you've started it absolutely you have um I we have to hear a clip of the book because the audio book I mean the way you read it is just so gripping so let to hear a clip of the book because the audiobook i mean the way you read it

is just so gripping so let here's a clip from the book i don't know what it is about heights i'm scared of them dead scared but i'm not scared of falling i'm scared of jumping because whenever i'm high up i get this overwhelming urge to just leap off. I'm not suicidal. I don't want to die all right. It's just knowing that you can. How easy it'd be to do it. And how something so simple,

so instant, can have the power to change your life forever. And sitting on the edge of Liam's bed, looking at that gun, I feel exactly the same way as I did on the edge of that cliff. All right then, Liam, I go. Let's do it. Oh, we're all gripped. We want to know what happens next.

So much happens in the book. It's from 13 to 18. You meet a group of uh friends the fallen divas club you end up in prison what i want to know is who have you written this book for oh i wasn't expecting that question nita um well i kind of wrote it for me genuinely because i got this book deal with penguin and i think you know i did question time in 2013 which you know, I did Question Time in 2013, which, you know, is a young working class journalist. Of course, you say yes to something like that. But and I'm very proud of it. But what it meant is I sort of get invited to do all of this newsy stuff where I'm basically going to argue with with old men on Newsnight, you know, which is not really what I want my career to be.

And so when I got this book with Penguin, I thought, oh, we could make it a bit more serious. We could make it more polemical. We could make it a more straight up autobiography. But I was really clear that I absolutely didn't want to write a transgender memoir for starters. So anybody who's expecting that's going to be disappointed, I think. It's not. It's for anybody. It's just a great story. And, you know, I knew that I'd had these experiences and I thought, well, what do I want to read? And I just love all of those voice-led fictions such as Trainspotting, Paddy Clark, Ha Ha Ha,

and The Colour Purple by Aliceer had a huge effect on me and so i just i wanted to write something really vivid and colorful and vibrant that i would want to read so and you've done you've done just that paris you really have and i'm sure this is going to have a huge impact and affect a lot of people um who will read it and definitely open some debates. Paris Lees, thank you very much. What it feels like for a girl is out now. Now, of the 12 judges on the Supreme Court, the highest appeal court in the land, all are white and only two are women. When it comes to diversity within the UK legal system, clearly there is a long way still to go. So what obstacles remain in the way of

making a career in law more accessible for those from so-called non-traditional backgrounds? And are things beginning to change? Well, for the first time, the Supreme Court announced this week it will be introducing paid internships for aspiring lawyers from underrepresented communities. They hope this will bridge the gap and help pave the way for more lawyers from different backgrounds in the high courts. Well, I'm joined now by Vicky Fox, the Chief Executive of the Supreme Court, and by Stephanie Boyce, President of the Law Society,

who this year became the first person of colour to hold this position in the society's 200-year history. My hands are in the air. Yes, welcome. Talk about having two powerful women on Women's Hour. Welcome to you both. Vicky, let's come to you first. Tell us more about these paid internships.

What will they be offering? Well, this is a fantastic opportunity. We're working in partnership with Bridging the Bar, which is a charity committed to increasing equality of access to opportunities in the legal profession across all underrepresented groups, whether it's race, sex, class, sexuality, disability, or any other characteristic.

And we're working with them to offer a week's paid internship. It will give aspiring lawyers a unique insight into how the court works. They'll be working closely with the justices, with the justices judicial assistants, they'll be in conversation with them, they'll get to present their perspective and their experiences to date and we hope that it will be a really inspiring moment for them that will help them progress their legal career. And it's a gateway, it's an open and the optics though however at the Supreme Court as I've just said are not great. 12 judges, all of them white, only two women. What's being done to address that Vicky? Well we know that's a problem and that's why we want to be part of the solution

that's why when Lord Reid the President of the Supreme Court became President just over a year ago he made increasing diversity one of his top priorities and that's why we launched our judicial diversity in inclusion strategy we know we need to do more we also know we can't solve it alone you know the reasons for the lack of diversity are complex they're long-standing but we want the very best and the most talented people regardless of their background to become justices in the supreme court of course of course and stephanie i'm going to bring you in because you are the first woman of color i'm going to just repeat it to hold the presidency of the Law Society. You've spoken about, yep, everyone's got their thumbs up, hands in the air.

You've spoken about wanting to be a visible role model for others. Why is it so important? I mean, you know, we can have this brilliant, an internship, open the doors, entry level access, inspire young people. But why is it important to have visible diversity, particularly in law? Well, absolutely. It's important because we know that if you come from a Black, Asian, minority ethnic background, the more characteristics you take, the greater the barriers, the hurdles. So we know that having achieved greater diversity at entry level, we must address the retention and progression gaps. You know, my ascension to the role of

president as the first person of colour, the first black office holder in the Law Society of England and Wales' entire history, I know there is growing social opportunity in the legal profession. However, we still need to do more to challenge the stereotypes of what a solicitor should sound like, look like, the background they should come from. It's important that the legal profession reflects the communities that they seek to serve. And visible leadership, visible role models is important to ensure that those coming up behind us can see that there is progress. You know, Stephanie, sometimes when women are in positions of power and have become successful, you hear the comment, well, you made it. Can't be that difficult. You know, what do you say to that? You got there. Why can't be that difficult. You know, what do you say to that? Well, you got there. Why can't others get there too? How hard was it? How hard was it to get there? Four times, four attempts it took me to be successfully elected as Deputy Vice President of the Law Society. And once you

become elected as Deputy VP, it's a three-year automatic trajectory to becoming President. But the whole point here is, is that I'm stronger for those previous attempts. Absolutely. You know, sometimes it's in the getting there that empowers us, that makes us stronger, the wanting even more so. But it's important that we don't give up because, you know, my belief is that every door is open if you push, if you persevere until something happens. Yes. Just don't lose the, just don't get your arms too exhausted. Keep pushing. We've had a message from one of our listeners. She's a senior partner in her firm. And she says, today, my senior partner confidently announced that we're 23% women in our partnership,

but it's fine because we'll be up by 35% in five years. She says, hmm. And so she says, this was during an end of year presentation about how awesome we are, led entirely by 10 white men. One woman in charge of HR was allowed to speak. So this is about changing culture, isn't it, Vicky? How do we change the culture within the legal system when you have 10 men, just white men running the shop how is how

does anyone else have a chance you're right it essentially it is about culture and it and culture takes time to change but let me just tell you something um that i had some feedback just yesterday when we launched the internship and this came from an aspiring barrister they said to me reading about the internship made me feel seen by the UK Supreme Court I'd never thought about it before but why couldn't I be there someday so that's what we want we want everyone to be seen we want everyone to aspire to be a judge at the moment when people look at the justices they may not see someone that looks like themselves but I want people to start looking in the mirror and start saying I look like a future

justice and we will support them to do that our justices do a huge amount of education and outreach they go to schools they talk about their career paths they talk about what held them back and how to overcome those challenges. So what are the barriers still in place then, Vicky, that need to be overcome, that need to change? Well, I think there are a number of barriers. We know, for example, with women, that they enter the profession in equal numbers,

but they don't progress in those same equal numbers. So we need to be looking at those points where the proportions go down. What's happening? What are those barriers? And what we at the Supreme Court want to do is to be helping push those barriers down. What are they, Stephanie? Why aren't women getting through? What's going on? Well, as Vicky said, a number of reasons, you know, from down to child caring responsibilities, to leave in the profession because they don't feel that they are included, that they are represented, various hurdles that are put in their way in terms of partnership. You know, 31% of private practice partners are females, despite the fact that 52% of the solicitor profession

are females, and 63% of those entering the profession are female. But those figures are not translating into senior positions. And we see that across the piece, you know, whether it's from an ethnic minority background, whether you are disabled, you know, older, younger, you know, and so forth. But it's trying to change, as Vicky said, changing the culture of firms, organisations to ensure that they are truly inclusive. Because we can have diversity, but diversity without inclusion, there is still work to do. Absolutely. And we've got the two of you on both at the top of your tree, both in positions of power, doing your bit. That's why we're here talking about it. What is progress going to look like for you, Stephanie?

Progress. Well, can I say progress? As I said before, progress has been made in the fact that I am where I am. And my vice president, Lovna Shuzha, is set to become the first Asian president of the Law Society. But it's not enough just to have us both at the top of the helm and think that progress has been made. So much more has to be done in terms of the way we recruit.

You know, we know that a number of us recruit in our own image. We recruit from certain universities, from certain backgrounds, the way that we advertise, the language we use, the pictures on our websites, you know, contextualised recruitment and so forth. And then, as I say, when we get colleagues into our businesses, what do we do to make them feel valued, included, even down to the way we allocate work to colleagues? Well, it's been fascinating talking to you both. Best of luck to both of you, Vicky and Stephanie. Lots of you getting in touch via Twitter to tell me about Paris and the interview you just heard. John says, my copy of Paris's book arrived yesterday. Can't wait to read it. Aideen says, great to hear Paris talking about her new autobiography, a coming of age memoir.

And my goodness, someone says, what a powerful interview with Paris. What an incredible, important voice she has. You have to listen again and you can listen again. You can go to BBC Sounds

anytime you like and listen to any woman's hour if you've missed out during the week. Now Nero was the fifth emperor of Rome and one of its most infamous rulers,

notorious for his cruelty, debauchery and eccentricity. He ruled at a time of great social and political change, overseeing momentous events such as the Great Fire of Rome and Boudicca's rebellion in Britain. He allegedly killed his mother and his two wives, only cared about his art and had very little interest in ruling the empire. But what was he really like?

Was he the tyrant that history has painted him to be? Well, the writer and classicist Natalie Haynes has been to see the new exhibition of Nero at the British Museum in London. And if anyone can explain who this guy was or might have been, it's Natalie. Morning, Natalie. Hello. How are you doing?

I'm great. Good to see you. So what do we know about this chap? I mean, what we actually know is almost nothing. But what we have is fantastic literary sources about Nero. It's just they're all incredibly biased. So the literary sources that ancient historians use generally would make a modern historian cry actual history tears. Because we have only got sources who are incredibly biased, who wrote decades after the event, who had massive axes to grind. So we get Tacitus, who is one of my favourite sentences in all of Latin literature.

And you know when I say that, I'm really not kidding. After the great fire of Rome, Nero does incredible work to make the city safer. And this involves, for example, reducing the height of this and increasing the distance between tower blocks, insulae, as they're called, little islands. That's where we get the word insulae, of course. And making sure that they're not clad in wood, but clad in stone. So he makes the city safer.

He improves things like sanitation. So there are baths built at campus march He improves things like sanitation. So there are baths built at Campus Martius and things like that. And he also builds himself a massive, great, big new palace called the Domus Aurea, the Golden House. And when Tacitus writes about this program of works, he says, and I quote, in parts of Rome unfilled by Nero's new palace. It just took over the whole place. A saucer of milk for the historian, please. So, I mean, he's just incredibly bitchy. So when Tacitus

tells us anything about Nero, you have to take it with a massive pinch of salt, because Tacitus is very, very pleased to tell you at the beginning of his annals that he's going to write sine ira et studio without anger or partisanship. It's absolute nonsense. You would search long and hard to find a more angry

and partisan historian than Tacitus. So he could be writing for a newspaper then or a tabloid newspaper at the time. Absolutely. And if you think that's bad, then try Suetonius is all I have to say. But only if you have a relatively strong stomach for sex scandals, because that's basically what Suetonius likes. Oh, come on. I literally can't. I'll get banned. All right. It is ready for... You have absolutely no idea. Let's talk about some of the women in his life then, as it is woman's hour. Let's start with his mother. So Nero is really interestingly, and very unusually, I think, he is defined by these historians by the women who surround him. So Nero only becomes emperor because his mother,

Agrippina the Younger, is a woman of incredible power and influence. Now, as Tastus or Suetonius might tell it, Machiavellian, monstrous, poisoning the Emperor Claudius, to whom she was a fourth wife, with a big plate of mushrooms, I think. I still don't eat them now, Anita, you know this, you've seen me eat, I shun a mushroom. And so she maneuvers her son, Nero, to become the successor to Claudius, which is no mean feat given that Claudius has his own son, Britannicus. Yes. Named for us, obviously, because Claudius had successfully invaded Britain,

or at least his soldiers had. He did come here, though, with some elephants, which I imagine scared the bejesus out of our ancestors because we would have been like, what is that? It's so much bigger than a goat I've never seen such a thing and so um Agrippina is enormously powerful if we look at coins and the museum exhibition has some fantastic examples of this an arius a golden coin minted in Rome um at the end of Claudius's reign shows Agrippina you know know, on the coin right there. So she was powerful. She has sole billing on a coin and a gold coin at that.

She was really powerful. And then Nero becomes emperor. And the following year, we can see a coin where there's the two of them facing each other. But she's on the left. She's got the more, you know, influential position. And then you can see a coin where they're both facing the same direction. They're both facing to the right of the coin and he's in the foreground and she's in the background. And then the following year, a gold coin where she's just disappeared. And you can literally

see the coin show her influence waning. Absolutely extraordinary. Well, his relationship with his mother seemed to have gone downhill because he's rumoured to have killed her. He really is. And it's one of the most fantastic murders. And I know I shouldn't enjoy it this much, but it was ages ago and she would be dead anyway. But it is one of the best murders, even in Roman imperial history, because he hires a Nicetas, who is the commander of the fleet, to drown her using a collapsible boat. So she and her freed woman, a woman who had been enslaved but has then been freed, called Acheronia, go out on this sort of little boat for a little nice lake trip. And I had to translate this in my GCSE Latin,

so I'm particularly fond of it. And then the roof collapses, but they're in a high-sided sort of chaise longue thing. And so that stops them from getting squished by the bits of collapsing roof but the sailors then um move to and fro and make the ship capsize and so the women end up in the water but agrippina can swim but acaronia doesn't see that this is clearly a plot and so when when other sailors row a bit nearer, she shouts, save me, I'm the emperor's mother. And they club her to death with their oars. Goodness me.

Right? Right. I mean, it is a properly, and so Agrippina swims to safety, but then she gets stabbed when she gets there, I'm afraid. But do we know this is fact? No, absolutely not. I mean, you know, Agrippina definitely dies. But, you know, she, she brutally she probably was killed was she killed on nero's orders probably um the collapsible boat it just

seems too outlandish even for tacitus or suetonius to have invented but you know there are there are other problems with always with these accounts of nero is how much of it was him how much it was the people around him. You know, Agrippina had a lot of enemies. She was a celebrated poisoner, according to our sources. But our sources hate powerful women. So, you know, who knows what she was really like. Surprise, surprise. Great story to get Natalie through a GCSE Latin, though.

Yeah, I mean, I needed that because it set me on quite a happy path. Yeah, it's worked out all right for you. Let's talk about his marriages. He had two wives. I mean, you know, and a few, yes, as we might count. Yeah, so he is first off married to Octavia, who, I mean, we would consider this basically incest, let's be honest.

She's the daughter of Claudius, so they are step-siblings at the very least. And it obviously, in terms of how the romans look at these things and and our standards of incest and theirs are different claudius changed the law so that he could marry his niece agrippina as his fourth wife so we would find that problematic and actually the romans find it a bit problematic but it does still happen and cousins first cousins marrying happens all the time um in in imperial Rome because it consolidates power, you know, and it consolidates money. So it makes Nero's accession to the throne seem even more

undeniable because although there's Britannicus, son of Claudius, he's younger and, you know, here's Nero and his mother was, you know, the empress. And now he's married into Claudius's family even more closely and so on and so on. But it's not a successful marriage. They don't have children. They're obviously very unhappy. Octavia is banished and then eventually forced to kill herself or has her, sorry, this is slightly gory, has her veins opened by someone else.

And that's, again, women very rarely die of old age in imperial Rome, I have to be honest with you, certainly in the Giulio Claudio Nero. Well, he didn't die of old age either, did he? Nero, no, he has forced himself to suicide in 68 after we've revolted, well done us, that would be Boudicca and the Iceni, the Parthians have revolted, everyone is revolting. And it becomes clear that Nero can't maintain

any kind of grip on power. And so he's forced to take his own life. And he stabs himself, I think I'm right to say with a pen, with the aid of his secretary, a Greek named Epaphroditus. And his final words magnificently are, Qualis artefacts pareo, what an artist, but still I die. That's what I'm intending to say, just FYI. Oh, Natalie, you bring it to life so wonderfully oh I've learned so much uh thank you so much for joining us it's my pleasure

anytime and I guess we'll never know the truth will we no and that's sort of okay I think it's it's one of the great joys of Classics is that you can travel looking for answers but knowing that you probably won't ever really find them. No, but you can come and tell us all the different various options and possibilities. I can, and then you can choose your own. Yeah, wonderful. Fantastic. The great Natalie Haynes there bringing us up to speed with Nara. There's so much more to talk about it.

And there is an exhibition on at the British Museum. Now, yesterday we heard from Annie McManus, also known as Annie Mack, the broadcaster and Radio 1 DJ, talking about her first novel, Mother Mother. In this clip, she's explaining why she's decided to stop broadcasting. I felt like a bit defensive about the decision, I suppose, in a way where I've always been very pro working mom. The thing is, I am still working. I'll just be working in a different way and hopefully making work work for my schedule a bit more and I'm sure that the pandemic has also made people think differently again very much so you know when something so seismic can happen just just like that your attitude changes it becomes less terrifying and I really was just interested in

the idea of doing something quite drastic and seeing how it felt. And so far, I mean, I haven't left yet. I've still got a couple of months, but so far it's felt good and I'm quite enjoying the idea of leaving blind and not really knowing what's next and just kind of giving myself a bit of space to figure it out. Well, you can hear the longer version of that interview

with author Esther Freud on BBC Sounds. Annie Mack has made a huge decision about her work life. But what if you were writing a manifesto for the best way for women to work post pandemic? What would it say? We'd like to hear from you. Has the flexibility allowed you to be more involved in your home life in a way you'd like to continue? If you have caring responsibilities, have you been able to share those better with others in your household? Have you already asked for more flexibility from your employer? How have they responded?

On Tuesday's programme, we'll be talking about this in more depth. So email us via our website or bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Now, you may have seen in the news that some women and trans men are reporting unusual symptoms after having their COVID vaccinations, ranging from menstrual irregularities to bleeding post-menopause. To find out more and what's been happening and what could be behind it, I'm joined now by reproductive immunologist Dr. Vicky Mel from Imperial College, London. Very good morning. Welcome to the programme. Lots of stuff going round, lots of stories, rumours, lots of concerned people and lots of questions. So let's try and answer them. Let's start, Vicky, by talking about changes to periods. What's going on? What are you hearing? So people are reporting a variety of things and the most common things that people are reporting are heavy periods or late periods.

But people are also reporting lighter periods or missed periods. And this is making it quite difficult for us as scientists to know if this is definitely linked to the vaccine, because there is such a variety of reports. And also, it's on the background of the fact that a lot of people will occasionally have, you know, a slightly different period from normal, particularly if they're at the beginning, or the end of their menstruating life. So this is definitely something that's being looked into. And what I would encourage your listeners to do is if after the vaccine they notice a change to their periods, please report it to the government's side effect tracking scheme, which is called Yellow Card. And this will give us a better idea if this is a real side effect, if it is how common it is. And that will be very useful because we can then give people a

bit of a warning in the same way at the moment we say, oh, you might expect a sore arm, you might expect to feel feverish. But I would like to reassure people that those people who have reported this, it's a short term effect lasting for usually one cycle. A few people say it's lasting for two. But we're still encouraging people to we're trying to gather data. So get in touch. Was it yellow card reporting, you said? Yes. So if you Google yellow card COVID, the top hit should take you to the site where you can make a report and actually you can report anything, not just to do with your periods, anything that happens after the vaccine that you think that we should know about, use yellow card to tell us.

And what about the reports of postmenopausal bleeding? Well, these are a lot less common than the reports of changes to periods, and they're not necessarily going to be the same thing. And in fact, if anyone experiences postmenopausal bleeding, even if they think that it's to do with the vaccine, I would really encourage them to go to their GP and have a chat about that. Because postmenopausal bleeding can sometimes be a sign of something quite serious. And what we don't want is for people to think, oh, that's just a side effect of the vaccine, I won't bother getting it checked out. So please do if you experience postmenopausal bleeding, go to your GP and get that checked out. What role are hormones playing in all of this?

Yeah, so it's really very interesting. The immune system affects sex hormones and sex hormones affect the immune system in quite complicated ways and ways that aren't really fully understood yet. So a good example of this is that certain drugs that inhibit the immune system can also stop people from ovulating. Another example that's maybe relevant here is that we sometimes see with the flu vaccination, in the cycle that people receive the vaccine, they have slightly decreased progesterone. And it's the balance between oestrogen and progesterone that controls the lining of your uterus building up and then breaking down. So if the vaccine is affecting the balance of these two hormones, then that might explain why some people are seeing changes to the way that they're bleeding during their menstrual cycle, perhaps a change to the timing or a change to how heavy their flow is.

So people have been getting in touch, Vicky. So I'm going to put some of the tweets that we've got out to you just to see what you have to say about them. KS has said, I'm eight months pregnant and avoiding the jab for now. I'm pro-vaccine, but just feel nervous about potential unknown side effects on the baby. My biggest question is, how do they know if there are any long-term negative effects? That is a really good question and one that so many people are asking me and it brings us on to actually a slightly different topic which is to do with COVID vaccination in pregnancy. Yeah. And we know that if you catch COVID in your late pregnancy

you are more likely to have your baby too soon and it is more likely that you'll have a stillborn baby. And obviously, these are absolutely outcomes that all of us want to avoid for ourselves, our loved ones, our patients, everyone, basically. And this is one of the reasons that from the 16th of April, the guidance was changed so that all pregnant people in the UK will be offered the COVID vaccine at the same time as they would have been if they weren't pregnant. So if you're 32 and you're pregnant, you'll be offered it with all the other 32 year olds. So we want to avoid COVID. We can avoid COVID by getting vaccinated, but people do ask this question, you know, like, is the vaccine safe? And we actually have really good data on that from the United States of America and from Israel, where they've been

vaccinating people, pregnant people since December and in the United States of America they vaccinated 118,000 pregnant people and they have really good follow-up data on them and we've got two quite big academic studies that followed up well one of them followed up almost 4,000 pregnant people who received the vaccination and they got in touch with them three months later and they said how have you got on and 712 of those people said I've had my baby and they said oh tell us a bit about how that went and there was no increased risk of any bad outcomes at birth in that study and then there was another smaller study that looked at about 150 people who were vaccinated against COVID saw the outcomes at birth and there were no bad outcomes at birth. So when we look at

newborn babies or people who've been vaccinated they just look like lovely normal newborn babies that we all like to see and that's a brilliant first step. Of course what people will then say to me is well what would those babies be like when they're two or three or four and I can't tell you that yet because we haven't had the vaccine for that long. But what I can tell you is because of the way that the immune system works and the vaccines work, and we actually know that the vaccines don't cross the placenta, all the signs are that if we've got a whole load of happy, healthy newborns, they're going to turn into happy, healthy, within the bounds of how people grow up, toddlers, children, teenagers and grown-ups. We've just had a message in from someone, an email saying,

since my first AstraZeneca vaccine nine weeks ago, I've bled heavily twice a month since. I've never been a regular in 30 years. This is the sort of information you want people to get in touch with you, so via the yellow card. Please do file a report about that kind of thing. It's so helpful for us to understand how common this is. But obviously, this is the sort of stuff that is making people feel very nervous, very concerned.

Somebody might have had their first vaccine, as this person has, and then be reluctant to get their second vaccine because they don't know what the effect is. What would you say to them about that? Well, certainly, we do know that for full protection, you do need to get both vaccines. And that's even more important now than it used to be, because we have data about some of the new variants that are circulating that say that two vaccines are actually pretty good against the new variants. But one dose is really not very, not as good as we would like, let's say. So I would still encourage people to get their second dose but you know some people who feel that they've suffered really unbearable side effects from their first dose i would encourage them to have a talk to their doctor because obviously for every individual we have to consider the risks and the benefits of everything and for most people the

benefits definitely definitely outweigh the risks but um we shouldn't rule out the possibility that some people who have very bad side effects should avoid their second dose so do have a chat with your doctor about that. And lots of questions coming in but I'm very aware of time as well a number of studies linking show no link to loss of fertility tell us about those. Yes so this is something that people were worried about kind of back in December and it actually just came from kind of a misinformation campaign. But we do now have lots and lots of evidence to show that the COVID vaccines won't reduce your chances of getting pregnant. In the clinical trials, people became, people were asked to use reliable contraception, but you know, accidents

sometimes happen. And there were 57 accidental pregnancies across the three vaccines, trials of the ones that we've approved in the UK. These happened equally in the placebo and in the vaccine group. So vaccination was not reducing people's chances of getting pregnant. And now the vaccines have been rolled out, we have more real world data. So in IVF settings, people have tracked the pregnancy rates in people who've been vaccinated versus people who've not been vaccinated. And there's no reduction in pregnancy rates in people who've been vaccinated versus people who've not been vaccinated. And there's no reduction in pregnancy rates in people who've been vaccinated. And finally, from the United States of America, where they're tracking this really intensively. At the end of March, 4,804 post-vaccination pregnancies have been reported to the CDC.

That's going to be an underestimate because it's only Americans and it's only those Americans who knew that they could report their pregnancies to the CDC. That's going to be an underestimate because it's only Americans and it's only those Americans who knew that they could report their pregnancies to the CDC. But nonetheless, at the very least, we can say nearly 5,000 at the end of March. Dr. Vicky Mill, thank you so much. I'm sure we will be having this conversation again as and when we learn more. But thank you so much. Lots of you getting in touch, telling me what's happened since you had your first jab with your periods and postmenopause. There is a website. If you go to the NHS, you can find the yellow card place there and report what's happening to you so they can gather all the data. Now, it is Friday. Who fancies a night out? Bank holiday is here and fingers crossed the sun will be shining.

One of our most liked Instagram posts at BBC Woman's Hour features a quote from Phoebe Waller-Bridge saying, Friendships are the greatest romances of our lives. During the various lockdowns it seems to have really chimed. Now a few weeks ago, in anticipation of it becoming possible to meet up with friends again, we asked you to tell us about who you were desperate

to see and why. Chris from Cardiff emailed about her group of mates who are all coming up to 64 now and have shared more than 50 years of friendship. Our reporter Jo Morris got Chris to record the walk to their favourite

Italian restaurant following Covid guidelines, of course, as they bantered and remembered after a long time apart. She talked to Chris about how they all first met. So there's Annie, who I've known since I was 10, and Lou, who I've also known since I was

10. And there's Sally and Mandy and Jack, whom I got to know when we first started high school. And then there's Carol and Margaret. We don't care what people think. Why should we? And we just do what we want to do. We're 64. What the hell? You know? Hi, my crew. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi of wine. I love it. Me and Jack are on the wine. Yes, please. Is it going to be a two-bottler? That's what we need, girls. What? Those cottages. I love those railway cottages. That's what we need. We all need to buy one of those.

Next door to each other. Yeah. Our little golden girls. Anne's your oldest friend then, and you met her when you were 10. Can you remember when you first met? Yeah. You went to school together, did you? It was Robina Primary School.

I moved down in the last year. Chris moved down from the north. We became best friends immediately, I remember. And then we did all sorts of things together, like Girl Guides and... Sunday school. Sunday school at church. And we went to church in our hot pants once. Oh, my dear.

It didn't go down very well, did it? You were Sunday school teachers, weren't you? Yeah. Except we were naughty, weren't we? Yeah, we did. No. And non-believers. A bit daring. And atheists. A bit naughty, weren't we? Yeah, we did. No. And non-believers.

A bit daring. And atheists. A bit daring, weren't we? Which surprises me, because I remember being so shy. How were you daring? We pinched the boys' bikes one time, do you remember? And rode off. We took orders for sweets. And we came back half an hour later,

and everybody was out of the playground, you know, in their classes, and there was us. Wasn't the first time, mind, was it? How have you kept the group going? I think it was back in the autumn. I said, well, what about let's send a photograph. Let's all every Friday send a memory, either from our travels, from when we were teenagers or recent ones or nights out. And there'd be about an hour's banter then about the photographs, where were we, could we remember all of the people in the photograph.

Yeah, people that we were in school with that we all knew or boys we went out with. And yeah, it was great. I remember meeting you in Cydelin with a fantastic pair of new flares on I thought I looked the bee's knees and we were going to the pub, you and I were going to the pub and I thought Warren Parker fancied me turns out he didn't, he was after you

Oh I remember that Do you remember Warren Parker? Yeah I do I was crestfallen How did you realise then? Well, when we got to the pub and he was taking a blind bit of notice of me in my new flares,

I was like, oh, right then, it's about Jack. She hadn't made an effort. It's like, oh, I might be going home early tonight then I nearly went on what's that the voice no

when I was in that band remember when I was in that band yes I do you know that guy what's his name sounds like

two syllables. We can't even Google this, can we? Because we don't know where to start. Give us a clue, Sam. Was that a television programme? It was a television programme. It was one of the very, very first music programmes. Top of the Pops?

No, no. Pop Stars? No, and it was Huey Green. Mickey Mouse? Oh, This Is Your Life? No. Not Stars In Your Eyes? No.

Opportunity Knot? Opportunity Knot. Oh, you nearly went on there, did you? I thought of it, just petrified me. So that was the end of my musical career. I always wanted to be Susie Quattro. I always wanted to be in a band. Yeah.

I like to hear. I like to laugh a jumpsuit. She had the best feather cut ever my hair probably would have gone like that it would have because she had really poker straight hair didn't she and those leather suits I used to love she's still going strong now I think

is she Welsh? No oh you're thinking of Bonnie Tyler Bonnie Tyler she's from Swansea, love. She's got a very, very deep voice. That's the one. I love Bonnie.

All the Bonnie Tyler songs I love. Yeah, Lost in France. Oh, yeah. Lost in France. And what's the hero one? Hero. Hero. Hero.

And it builds up. Looking for a hero? I'm looking at a photo of you all. Oh, you look so happy, all of you. Yeah, we're always happy when we're out together. Like, I had a happy bunch. We just didn't know how gorgeous we were. You don't, I don't think, though, do you?

You don't when you're that age, do you? No, and then you get old and you think, what was I worrying about? Exactly, yeah. We've been all around Europe. We always had Saturday jobs. When everyone had a summer job, it was easy to get a job. So you worked through the summer and then we took off. I was in BHS with Jack.

She'd only just turned vegan and they put her on the butchery counter. She's never forgotten that. So you go away together almost every year, do you? Every year we go, yeah. And just you women, not the partners and the men? Just us women, yeah. Is that how you like it?

Yes, we do. You could escape the nappies and the dribble and everything else. Grounding and dribble. And the drool, yeah. We have made an effort. Made an effort. Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely effort involved.

I think you have to work at friendships, don't you? Of course you do. They don't just happen, you know, when the kids think you have to work at friendships, don't you? Of course you do, same as everything. You know, when the kids were little and your lives are busy, aren't they? Busy, yeah. You know, when we were all working. Yeah, you're just trying to stay afloat. Trying to get your careers going.

You still managed it, didn't we? Yeah, we did. That's right. Every year we used to go away for a week. Yeah, even when the kids... Because I remember when you had Joe and you were trying to wean him off, weren't you? That's right, I was trying to get him

off the booth, wasn't I? So that my kids could come away with it. So he could go on holiday. We have a lot of conversations about hair on chins now. You'll get there, Joe. You'll get there. That's the way forward, is it, now?

Yeah. How to deal with hair on chins. You know, get there, Jo, you'll get there. That's the way forward, is it, now? Yeah. How to deal with hair on chins. You know, if you've left your tash grow, no one's going to judge you for it. You can just laugh about it. Deep down, we're still those girls that were in school together. We didn't all live in Cardiff. We all went off to college, whatever.

But again, we just used to keep in touch. We used to hitch. There'd be a party going on, so we'd say, right, hitch up to Sheffield or hitch down to Reading. Do you think there's anything we don't know about each other? Yes. Yeah, we've all got secrets. Yeah.

Of course we have. No one's getting mine. No. You only share what you want to share. Yeah. We don't talk about our relationships with our husbands. No, we don't. There's no need of it, is there?

I mean, we would do if we had a problem. I was going to say, but you know you can. Yeah, we know we can. Have you ever fallen out? No. That's quite unusual, don't you think? Not to have had any sort of fallings out or arguments. We've had nothing to fall out over, I don't think.

Ah, cheers. We made it, Jo. Ah, here we are. Having a drink together at last. So exciting. In our favourite Italian. What cheers in Italian? Prego.

Prego. Prego. That's it. I'm back tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. Have a lovely bank holiday. Charlie, I have been so excited to speak to you. Hello, Manor. Hello.

How are you, Joe? I'm Joe Wicks, and I'm back for the second series of my podcast that's all about sharing ways to help you live Hello, Myrna. Hello. How are you, Joe? I'm Joe Wicks and I'm back for the second series of my podcast that's all about sharing ways to help you live a happier and healthier life. Doing a bit of research and apparently you're into

something called inversion therapy where you hang upside down. Yes. What's that, like a bat? Exactly. I do it every day. You know, it all just sort of...

Clears your head a little bit. Yeah. I get to speak to some heroes of mine from the legend that is Sir Tom Jones who I'm literally obsessed with to one of our most successful UK athletes, Sir Mo Farah. You have to be smart and control the race in the way that you want to. It just settles me, it organises my brain. Meditation,

I think, is the cultivation of a space within you that if you don't turn to it, life will get in the way. Subscribe now on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. And you can also check out every single episode in video format on BBC iPlayer. The Joe Wicks podcast for BBC Radio 4. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.