Woman's Hour - Cressida Dick, Tukwini Mandela, Sheila Ferguson

Episode Date: February 11, 2022

Dame Cressida Dick, the first woman to lead the Metropolitan Police has resigned. We've covered every twist and turn of the many high profile crimes against women and girls involving the Met Police over the last two years. We get reaction from Kristina O'Connor, the daughter of Des O'Connor, who has her own experience of inappropriate Met Police behaviour. Also, Jamie Klingler from Reclaim These Streets, Zoe Billingham who's the former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary and Harriet Wistrich, Director of the Centre for Women's Justice.We hear from Tukwini Mandela, one of Nelson Mandela's oldest grandchildren. Thirty two years to the day, Nelson Mandala was released from Robben Island. Tukwini is here to explore how much the UK population really knows about black history.We speak to Marie Penman who left her job with the charity-side of Raith Rovers football club because it signed David Goodwillie. He was the player who a Scottish civil court found to have raped a woman.Sheila Ferguson. who used to be one of the Three Degrees. is now in a new production of Chicago which is on tour. Sheila joins Anita to talk about new love, dating and hanging out with musical legends when she first started out.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Today I'll be speaking to Marie Penman who made a decision to quit her job when her employer's football team, Wraith Rovers, signed David Goodwillie to play for the team even though he was found to have raped a woman in a Scottish civil case in 2017. She took a stand for something she believed in. A bold move that cost her her job.

So this morning, I want to be inspired by your stories of taking a stand. We want to hear from you. When you've mentally weighed up the cost to yourself and spoken out because it matters to you, it's a matter of your integrity because you know if you don't say anything, nothing will change. Whether it's in the workplace, finally finding the courage to speak to your manager about the way you've been treated or standing up for someone else or finally telling someone they've been mispronouncing your name for months. So many of us let things slide because we weigh up the options and often we think and we have thought it's just easier to say nothing,

which is why people get away with casual sexism and racism. But we're seeing the conversation change and more and more people are speaking out publicly. And I'd like to know how this is affecting you. Has it boosted you to do the same? Or maybe you've made a big decision about your own life and how you choose to live it. Have you become a vegetarian or quit alcohol or finally split up from your partner? Or let's end with a positive. You've plucked up the courage to ask someone out and love is in the air. Whatever the stand is that you've taken, I would love to hear from you this morning. The text number is 84844. You can also email us via our website or you can contact us on social

media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And talking about people who take a stand for what they believe in, the granddaughter of Nelson Mandela, Taquini Mandela, is in the UK and will be joining me on the programme shortly to discuss why we know so little about black history. Also, the fabulous Sheila Ferguson, one third of the three degrees, will be telling us about her new role as Mama Morton in Chicago. Can't wait.

That text number, once again, is 84844. And of course, you can contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. But first, Dame Cressida Dick, the first woman to lead the Metropolitan Police, the largest police force in the UK, has resigned. The commissioner said she had no choice but to step down after being put on notice by the London mayor who called for rapid reform of the force. She's had a 40-year career in the Met.

On Woman's Hour, we've covered every twist and turn of the many high-profile crimes against women and girls involving the Metropolitan Police over the last two years. With each episode, women have questioned their relationship with the force and their trust in the institution that set up to protect them. The murder of Sarah Everard by a police officer and how the vigil afterwards was handled by the police. Photographs taken by serving police officers who were supposed to be guarding the bodies of Mina Smallman's two daughters who were murdered in a park. And last week we covered the vile text messages that came to light which were exchanged by police officers at Charing Cross police station in central London. They exposed what the police watchdog found to be disgraceful misogyny, discrimination and sex harassment among some Met PCs.

Now, to talk about this this morning, I'm joined by Jamie Clinger from Reclaim the Streets, as well as Zoe Billingham, her former, Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, which is a police watchdog, and Harriet Wisterich, Director of the Centre for Women's Justice. And Jamie, I'd like to come to you first. Your organisation, Reclaim the Streets, was set up in the wake of Sarah Everard's murder. And it says on your website, to ensure no woman has to be asked, text me when you get home again.

Does Cressida Dick's resignation put you one step closer to this? Well, we think that it puts us a step closer to rebuilding the trust in the police and being part of that process. We think it's about 11 months too late. wrong end and not having any acceptance of the systemic issues within the force meant that there was no efforts or acknowledgement to then get the reform that's needed to do the training necessary. There was talk about hiring another 150 officers, but I don't want another 150 wing cousins on the force. The vetting, the training, the internal whistleblowing processes, all of that has to be addressed. And if you say there's no institutional racism, sexism or misogyny,

then there's no effort to fix it. The whole year has felt like it was more important to worry about the Met's reputational damage than to worry about the safety of the women of London. And is changing the leadership going to fix this? I don't think it's a clean slate at all, but at least it shows concerted effort and hopefully in the interviewing process and who they hire, that that has to be a requirement, that they have to be looking at all of these issues,

because the next six months are going to be really rough. The IOPC stuff that's coming out. But even the fact that they refuse to make the Angelini inquiry statutory, it means that officers aren't compelled to testify. It means it's just about Wayne Cousins. It's not about the institutional misogyny on the force. And you and I have listened to the last six months in horror, like the Dr. Duff stories, and just all of these stories piling up and piling up.

And it makes it really much more dangerous for the good officers that are on the streets, because if we don't trust them, and if we're not being policed by consent, then it's more dangerous for those men and women. And you're getting the recruitment process where you're getting people that are drawn to power and not public service. Like none of us would go and apply for a job on the Met right now because of all of the horrible press. On Monday, Christina O'Connor, the daughter of Des O'Connor, told the BBC about her experience with the Met Police

after she was a victim of a crime near her house and she described how a police officer took the opportunity to be inappropriate when she reported it. And Christina joins us now to tell us about it. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Christina. Just remind us what happened to you. Sure. So I was mugged in the middle of the day, not far from my own

doorstep and when i went to the police station the police officer that was dealing with my case and my statement um took the opportunity to come on to me and sort of make crude sexual advances and then the following day he followed that up with a series of really inappropriate and predatory emails. And when I sort of called him out on it, he said that coming on to victims was positively encouraged. It was all part of the friendly face of the Met Police and that it was the rejection that was frowned upon. A horrendous situation for you to have to deal with. So what's your reaction to Cressida Dick's resignation? Well, I mean, it's a start,

but I don't feel that Cressida Dick can be made a scapegoat. I don't think her leaving solves the problem. She might have, you know, she might have stood down, but I think the institutional misogyny, racism and discrimination just remains. The issues don't die with her. I think the Met needs serious institutional and cultural reform as well as probably a commissioner that isn't beholden to this government that we have. Christina, thank you for taking the time out to speak to us this morning.

I'm now going to go to Zoe Billingham, former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, which is a police watchdog. Zoe, a very good morning. I'm now going to go to Zoe Billingham, former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, which is a police watchdog. Zoe, a very good morning. Is this a case of poor leadership, poor judgment or just an impossible task? Morning, Anita. I think Cresta is a very strong leader. I think she's led the force with care and compassion and candour. I think she's been overtaken by events. I agree with some of what Jamie says, but not all of it. I think as a leader, Cresta absolutely understood that the very precious bond of trust was broken when the modus operandi of Wayne Cousins was revealed in terms of the appalling killing of Sarah Everard. And she did put in a place, a plan to address it.

But there have been a series of catastrophic events. It's going to take a very long time to address the culture. The Charing Cross was the straw that broke the camel's back. The comments of those officers was an abomination. But the way the Met then handled that, with nine officers still serving and two having been promoted, I think was probably the last breach of trust that the mayor could take. And that led to, sadly, in my view, a change.

I don't believe that taking the scalp of a woman is necessarily going to be the way to address the cultural issues in the Met. And do you think it's significant that it is a woman is necessarily going to be the way to address the cultural issues in the Met. And do you think it's significant that it is a woman? I do. I think Christa has broken the mould in terms of policing. She has led with deep morality. She's expressed a real sense of passion in terms of keeping Londoners safe. But she has on occasions been, as a head of a large organisation, been seen to be slightly leaden-footed. On occasions, I agree with Jamie, some of the comments have been pretty tone-deaf.

And eventually she's run out of road, unfortunately. It's a big task for the next commissioner to come in. But I think there's some very specific steps and actions the new commissioner needs to take and to take rapidly to rebuild that trust. Because it is essential that women in London, when they feel threatened, abused, harmed, that they step forward to the police so that they can be kept safe in their hour of need. And when we're talking about all of this trust and confidence,

at the end of the day, we have to remember 1.6 million people were subject to, women were subject to domestic abuse in the last year. There's women day in, day out calling the police. Every 30 seconds, a woman calls the police because of domestic abuse. And we do need to make sure that that trust and confidence is rebuilt so that these women can feel confident to come forward and their offenders can be brought to justice. You're right. It is absolutely the key to this. How do they rebuild trust and regain that confidence? 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to give us your thoughts on this.

Let me come to you, Harriet. Cressida Dick, first woman to lead the Met in its 193 year history. For many women and girls, her appointment felt like a moment of change. What do you think went so wrong? I think I've kind of come across Cressida Dick for many years. I originally represented the family of Jean-Charles de Menezes, the man who was shot by Met police on the tube. And she was, in fact fact in charge of the operation. And I think the problem with what I've seen with Crested Dick is that the police officers serving underneath her have a lot of confidence in her. And her first kind of approach is to gain the loyalty of her officers.

And that's probably the reason why she has managed to get to the top of policing, where so many women are kept from it, because she works very hard to get the trust of the officers that she's working with and the respect of the officers she's working with. The problem is that she is not keeping her eye on the ball as a leader of what concerns the public. And so when she spoke out in the example Jamie gave describing cousins as a wrong one, she was not hearing what was going on, what people were saying about this is not just one bad apple this is many bad apples and uh she is not um she is not speaking out um and and and she's she she is not addressing misogyny and again that may be partly because she's a woman that she steps aside from from the issues that directly affect women and she's been very

disappointing in that respect in terms of identifying uh misogyny in policing as a problem is is Cresta Dick the problem or is the Metropolitan Police the problem? The problem is policing. It's not just Metropolitan policing, it's policing across the country. And one of the main problems we've seen, so we're doing a lot of work around police perpetrated abuse, and we are seeing many, many victims of police perpetrators coming forward to the Centre for Women's Justice. And the problem we see is that those that speak out do not have confidence to report. The police officers cover up, they support each other, loyalty to each other is more important than solving a crime. And they don't listen to whistleblowers or they actually punish people who speak out

and who don't have the opportunity to come forward. And that is part of the problem. And until there is a kind of transformation of police investigations of police, we're not going to be able to root this out if we allow that kind of culture of loyalty to continue. Zoe, how do we change that? How do we change that boys club, if you like, culture of loyalty? We think long and hard about the type of person we want in policing in the

first place. I think we test their inclinations, their aptitude, their reasons for wanting to join the police, and we close the net. So where there are people that have already got into policing that come in to perpetrate and to abuse, we make sure that there's measures in place to check them out. The interesting thing to me around the most recent, the Charing Cross, is these officers were communicating with one another on WhatsApp. That feels a very safe

environment, I think, for this toxic culture to breed. I did a report three years ago when I said that there was the severest, highest risk of police forces putting on to police issue phones WhatsApp. It is extraordinary because you can't, the counter-corruption measures are in place in every police force to check out what cops are actually doing, who they're talking to, what they're talking about, what type of language they're using. It's not easy to penetrate an encrypted app. And I think, you know, the kind of the warning signs are there. So the person coming in to take on the new role needs to be open with the public. They need to be very clear that the more they look, the more they're going to find. Harriet is absolutely right.

There are going to be more transgressions that are going to be revealed. The public are going to have to be briefed on that. But let's bring the public into policing in a real and meaningful way. Why don't we have members of the public, underrepresented groups, actually on the appointment panel for the commissioner of the metropolitan police i've just started working in the nhs in mental health for every one of our top appointments we have a service user someone with lived experience on our on all of our major appointments let's see the police learning from some of this and opening up their culture calling out the inappropriate behavior supporting staff that do, making sure the book

is thrown at transgressors that they're not promoted. That's never, ever a good look. And work on this day in, day out. There needs to be a daily conversation about culture, not a training course once every three years. It needs to be a day in, day out endeavour. So lots of things highlighted there in terms of what can be done to reform the way the Met is organised and recruitment. But let me come to you, Jamie, for the last question. How does an institution that is set up to protect us regain our trust? I think, again, it's what Zoe just said about bringing in experts and bringing in people with the lived experience. One of the things about the case that when he hit on her,

she complained, she did everything she could do to get that to go away. And he was like mildly slapped on the wrist. Only one in 10 people that are found guilty of gross misconduct are removed from the force. If you or I were found guilty

of gross misconduct, we would not have our jobs. So you shouldn't be able to hide behind a badge that you shouldn't have. Okay, thank you very much for speaking to me, we would not have our jobs. So you shouldn't be able to hide behind a badge that you shouldn't have. Okay, thank you very much for speaking to me all three of you, Christina O'Connor, Jamie Klinger, and Zoe Billingham. 844 is the number to text if you'd like to speak to us about anything you're hearing on the program today. A little bit later, we are talking about moments that you have taken a stand. And Janet has just messaged in to say,

in the early 1980s, I worked as a young admin assistant in a government service. I'd always taken a cup of coffee to the assistant director, but I had to walk by a poster of a topless woman, which made me feel sick.

One day I started to refuse to walk past the poster and the repercussions went all over the building. Many people couldn't believe this meek clerk would refuse to do something so simple. Well done, Janet.

But the question remains, did the poster stay up or did they take it down as a consequence? 84844, when have you taken a stand for something in your life? Tell us this morning. Now, 32 years to the day, Nelson Mandela was released from Robben Island, the place where he was imprisoned for nearly 20 years. To mark the day, one of his granddaughters is here exploring how much the UK population really knows about black history. Taquini Mandela is one of Nelson Mandela's oldest grandchildren

and she joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. So there's been a survey of people which has shown that we don't know enough about black history. How do we feel about that? I think it's an opportunity for people to educate themselves and for us to have these conversations. If people are not necessarily sure, they don't know. And I think that SNAP, CHAP, along with Black Cultural Archives,

is providing that opportunity for people to do that. So there is an AR exhibition, which was filmed at the Trafalgar Square. And there's a permanent statue of my grandfather there. So it's an opportunity for other black heroes. So it's an opportunity for young people and for all of us to learn, as a matter of fact. Snapchat has about 300 million users. A majority of them are young people and for all of us to learn, as a matter of fact. Snapchat has about 300 million

users. Yeah. And majority of them are young people. So, you know, we are reaching them where they are and we're getting them to engage with these heroes. And it's just a beautiful, immersive experience. Are you surprised by how little we know about black history in the UK, given that this was an international empire and had a huge part to play? I'm not surprised because most of these things are not in the history books. These are not things that we are taught at school. So I think it's up to us as parents, as aunts, as uncles, as people in general, to learn about each other's histories. So black people's histories began way before slavery, for example, and way before the civil rights movement and way before the anti-apartheid movement. And it's important for us to note

the black people that made those contributions before then. So, you know, you talk about black Tudors, for example, you talk about black Tudors, for example, you talk about black Romans who made a significant contribution. And I think it's important for our children's psyche to understand that they also have an amazing and beautiful history and to share that with everyone else. And the Black Lives Matter movement has been hugely important in talking about these issues around the world.

Do you think it's helping to improve the knowledge about black history and culture? I think it definitely is because the Black Lives movement is not just with black people. It's people from all sorts of racial backgrounds who are just sick and tired of the violence that's being perpetrated against black people with impunity. So I think that that is an opportunity to learn if you don't necessarily understand what the movement is about. And that, you know, it's important, all of us have a right to exist in this planet, and we've existed in any way from

time immemorial. So, you know, I think it's just, it's important things that help us learn about each other, but also that help us bridge the racial divide that we currently have today. Now, there are plenty of names, black names in history that have been forgotten and people won't be able to recall. Not your grandfather, however. Nelson Mandela is a name most of us know. I'd like to know a little bit about how you remember him because you were 15 when he was released on this day from Robben Island. How much contact did you have with him before he was released? I saw him twice before he was released and I was the first time I saw him I was eight years old that's the time when they do that way with the age restrictions and we saw him through a glass

and we kissed him through a glass and we kissed him through a glass. And I just remember my grandfather asking me at that time if I had a boyfriend. And I said to him, granted, I'm way too young to have a boyfriend. And, you know, he just wanted to know interesting things about our daily lives, I think, at that point. But when he came out, we spent a lot more time with him. I mean, he was just an engaging human being. He was a great storyteller. And, you know, I think we had to sort of re-educate him into society, if you will, because he didn't know certain things. A lot of things had changed by the time he came out of prison. And you are the daughter of Evelyn, who was Nelson Mandela's first wife.

Granddaughter, yes. Granddaughter, yes. You're the granddaughter granddaughter but you were brought up by your grandma we're on women's hour now so let's talk about how important the matriarchs in your family were they were crucial in my family people don't know that my grandmother is the one that paid for my grandfather's

education for him to go to law school and become a lawyer so the Nelson Mandela that people know today would not necessarily exist without his first wife, Evelyn, because my grandmother was a breadwinner at that point in time. So what did your grandmother do? She paid for his school fees. How much did she do to pay for them as the breadwinner?

She was a nurse. So she was able to generate an income for her family and support her family financially. It's just incredible to think about. And you're a large family, a complicated family. Your granddad was married three times, had six grandchildren. Sadly, only three are still alive, including your mum. What's it like to be part of such a dynasty? When I was younger, I guess I had a chip on my shoulder.

In what sense? Because people knew me as Nelson Mandela's grandchild, but they didn't, you know, and I was my own person. I had my own interests. So was that a blessing or a curse then, to be known as Nelson Mandela's grandchild? When I was younger, I thought it was a curse. But now that I've grown older and I understand my family's legacy and my grandfather educated me

about my family's legacy, I feel honoured to carry the torch, to be a torchbearer of that legacy, that name. When was the last time you all met as one big family? I mean, we see each other all the time because the younger kids hang out with each other, family? I mean, we see each other all the time because the younger kids hang out with each other, they're friends. So we see each other all the time. But because of COVID, obviously, you know, COVID has placed restrictions. But, you know, we make it a point to get together and to socialise. I mean, your grandfather died seven years ago, and there was global interest in his funeral and public reports about the rifts in the family over trust funds and the fortune worth millions and splits over money. How far off is a resolution between the family?

I'm not going to talk about that because that's a private family issue. And I don't think that it concerns what I've come to talk about here today. But are you worried that the family name gets used without your consent or it can be commercialised in a way? Look, there are those issues, but I think that we're doing our own things to make sure that my grandfather's name continues. Yes, and you have your own business as well with your mother? I have my own business as well with the House of Mandela, which talks about the legacy of my family, not necessarily my grandfather as an individual, but what formed him as a human being. And as the generations move on and become more and more distant from your grandfather, how does that change what's expected from family members?

Are you expected to behave a certain way because you carry the name and the legacy of Mandela? I'm going to talk about my own personal experiences. I'm proud to be a torchbearer for this name, as I've said, and noting that my grandfather has told us about our family history and the importance of the Mandela name. I'm proud to continue the legacy and I feel a responsibility to ensure that my grandfather's legacy never dies. Taquini, thank you very much for speaking to us this morning. That was Taquini Mandela, one of Nelson Mandela's oldest grandchildren. Now, it's nearly a fortnight since David Goodwillie was signed up to the football club Wraith Rovers. He was the footballer who, in a Scottish civil

case in 2017, was found to have raped a woman. There was a massive backlash to the signing. The club changed its mind and dropped him. The famous crime writer Val McDermott, a lifelong Wraith Rovers fan, spoke to us at Women's Hour before the club changed its mind and she was outraged. This is heartbreaking for me. You know, I love Wraith Rovers. It's been part of my life. My father was a scout for the club. I, you know. I love the club. There's a big stand there that has my name on it. My name is on the front of those shirts. And this, to me, is just a devastating time. And I'm now turning. I mean, I've kind of pivoted towards the women and girls teams. And my position now is to support them into rebuilding their confidence and their trust in themselves.

They had a meeting last night and the upshot of that is essentially they want to completely distance themselves from Wraith Rovers Football Club. They're currently, as we speak, having new shirts printed that don't have the Wraith Rovers crest on them. Well, someone who made a stand and put their money where their mouth is, is Marie Penman. She's just she just started a job at Wraith Rovers Community Foundation, the charity side of the football club. She was there for only three weeks when David Goodwillie was signed to the club and she resigned. Marie joins me now to tell me all about it. Welcome to Woman's Hour. You resigned from the role when David Goodwillie was signed.

Why did you feel so strongly about it? I've campaigned for women's rights all my life and I've spoken out on quite a lot of issues and this was a definite red line for me. When they announced the signing late on Monday night, which was the last day of the transfer window, it was announced very late at night. There was no doubt, no hesitation in my mind that I would resign the next morning. And, you know, listening to what Val was saying there, it really did break my heart

because like Val, you know, I'm a lifelong Race Rover supporter. It wasn't just a job to me. It was like a dream come true, getting a job at this club that I'd supported all my life. And to have them announce the signing of a man who had been found guilty of rape in a civil court just seemed so shocking to me. I couldn't believe that they would do something like that. And I knew I couldn't stay. I knew, no doubt in my mind. Why did they?

Do you know, I still don't fully understand that. OK, so David Goodwillie is a good player, I'm not denying that, and he scores a lot of goals. Why did they? at worst is the rumours of the Goodwillie signing first leaked back in December and as soon as that story got out to the press Val spoke out very vociferously and said if this happens I'm walking away from the club now at that point it should have killed the story stone dead because she is her main sponsor her name is on their strips it's on the football stand and so I thought well done Val speaking out this ends it for me that's that was a relief and then suddenly it went weeks with nothing being said and suddenly you know an hour before the transfer window closed they announced that they'd signed him and it's it's one of the most shocking things that's ever happened to me it's I mean that sounds ridiculous I know to people who don't

support football but I couldn't believe they'd be so stupid as to do that and risk losing their main sponsor which they then did they went ahead and did it anyway. Well, it's interesting that it happened after so many people spoke out, including Val McDermott, lots of women's groups, yourself resigning from the job. It's interesting, Marie, though, isn't it? Because he played for Clyde for years and no one said anything. Yeah, main difference there, of course, is that Clyde aren't sponsored by a very outspoken and intelligent feminist. And the board at Wraith Rovers should have appreciated that fact,

that the person whose name is on their strips is a woman, and a woman who has spoken out against abuse of other women. So why did they think that would sneak under the radar? Did they think Val was just going to accept it and walk away and let it blow over? There was no way that was going to happen. What does it say about the culture at large that it has been allowed to, people have overlooked it? Yeah, for definite.

And that's what concerned me about being part of, as they keep saying, the Wraith Rovers family, which they welcomed me to three weeks earlier. And then when they announced David Goodwill's signing, he was also part of the Wraith Roith Rovers family and I thought I don't want to be in the same family as this man and the fact that you know Wraith Rovers has a board of six directors who are all males and who possibly aren't as in touch with what women think and yet they were told by Val McDermid but still felt it was okay to go ahead with it it's just it's unbelievable really it staggers me. So here's the thing Marie off the back of what you've done we're asking our listeners to tell us about times where they've taken a stand and often particularly as women it takes a lot of courage and it takes a

lot to weigh up the options for us before we take that stand so what went through your mind before you decided was it instant did you know straight away, my position here is untenable, I have to leave? And how much of your decision was fuelled by anger? Yes, it was an instant decision. I knew my position was untenable. And I knew I would hand him an resignation as soon as I walked into the office the next morning. And yeah, it was fuelled by anger. I fully admit that. But you know, I'm sick of the way women get treated in this world. And I'm sick of the message that gets sent out that just But you know, I'm sick of the way women get treated in this world. And I'm sick of the message that gets sent out that just because you're a victim of rape, that's not that big a deal. And if somebody is good at their job, we can still employ

them. Not in this situation. I'm not saying David Goodwillie should be condemned to live in a cave for the rest of his life. But you know, take a job that isn't so high profile and that isn't involved with a club that has women's teams young girls playing for them that prides itself on being a community club all of that just got decimated wiped out in the instant that they signed him because their reputation is now tarnished forever as far as I can see I don't see how they recover from this well yesterday Wraith Rovers manager John McGlynn made a statement and apologized he said we underestimated the backlash and we're sorry. It was an enormous mistake.

What did you make of his statement? I thought it was awful. I genuinely did. Yeah, it was an awful mistake. But just admitting the mistake doesn't make it better because they knew in advance that they were doing wrong. Because Val McDermott told them very clearly that if they did this she would walk away now the fact that she felt as annoyed about it should have signified that this was the wrong move for them and I can't for the life of me understand why they drove forward with it anyway and signed them in the end. So what are the consequences for you have can you get your job

back you resigned because they signed David Goodwillie. He's not there anymore. I'm afraid there's not a happy ending on that one. No, I'm not getting my job back. They weren't happy with my comments on social media, criticising the club and whatever. But, you know, I'd do it all again tomorrow. I don't regret it. It was a great job.

I did it for three weeks and genuinely I loved the job. I felt very strongly about the charity and the work they were doing. I really believed in the programmes they were running. But some things are more important than a job. And, you know, me losing my job is a minor detail in this. I just keep thinking about the victim in that rape case and what she's going through, seeing her name dragged through the press yet again, years after it happened. Nobody cares about what she thinks. And race rovers certainly didn't care. I mean, you know, you've explained how you feel personally as a cares about what she thinks and race rovers certainly didn't care i mean you know you've explained how you feel personally as a woman about what they did and you took a stand

for what you believe in but also the job that you were doing you know you were working with the club's community foundation working with the community with young people to try and get them into employment what would the message what is the message that's being sent out to the community yeah that's that's a part of it as well because although the community foundation is a separate standalone charity they've got the race rovers name they've got the race rovers band badge on their other um outputs and everything that they're based at starch park at the football stadium they can't separate themselves and as long as they're labeled with that race rovers badge their work is going to be affected by that i know they've already suffered losses people cancelling um bookings because they do a lot of children's coaching they've got a lot of women's

footballers a lot of women's fitness classes and the message that it sends out is that women aren't as important as scoring a few goals that's that's the message ultimately what it says is that it sends out is that women aren't as important as scoring a few goals that's that's the message ultimately what it says is that it doesn't matter that this woman was raped it was a few years in the past you know let's move on and get a player on the pitch that's going to score goals for us that's not that shouldn't be the most important thing here you know what happened in the past you can't forget that i mean we've just spent the morning talking about misogyny with the met police it's a similar conversation that needs to happen within football. Yeah of course I mean football there's no getting away from it it's a very much a male-dominated environment and you know I was

the only woman that worked in the office there and the board is all male at Wraith Rovers but you can't say maybe if there'd been a woman on the board they would have known better that it was a bad move because they'd been told quite clearly by Val McDermid that it was a bad move. What they did was they chose to ignore that woman's voice and went with the majority of men who voted in favour of it. So what needs to change? At Wraith Rovers, they would have to get a new board in

because I'm not going back to the club as long as the people are in place. You can't just say, oops, we made a a mistake they're apologizing now because they got caught because they got a huge amount of bad publicity they're probably not apologizing because they thought it was the wrong thing to do because they knew it was what they were doing at the time they chose to do it anyway um so yeah you need to get rid of the club make boards more diverse bring in more women more young people more people of color they don't have any of that right now. Marie Penman, thank you very much for joining us to speak to me this morning. And we've got a statement from the charity side of Wraith Rovers.

They said, Wraith Rovers Community Foundation is a separate legal entity from the football club. Marie Penman resigned from her employment with us on the 1st of February. The vacancy has been filled. And you are getting in touch with moments when you have taken a stand in your own lives. Kat says, I'm currently writing my memoirs and I've just got to the part where I'm in high school in the mid seventies. Four of us girls are sat on the floor

outside the headmaster's office. We were protesting because we weren't allowed to do metalwork or woodwork. There was no point in girls having the knowledge apparently. Eventually they allowed us to study either woodwork or metalwork. I chose metalwork and I've ended up as a jewellery designer with my work being shown in the V&A Museum, no less. Now I'm 58 and I'm about to start a woodwork course.

Good for you. 84844 is the number to text when did you last take a stand. Now, time for some telly. A new reality TV show, Mega Mansion Hunters. You might have caught episode one already on Channel 4. It follows the lives of a group of luxury estate agents working at Tyron Ash Real Estate. By using social media to advertise their mega bucks properties, the team have sold nearly 300 million pounds worth of luxury pads in 18 months, with the agents earning by commission only and

thousands of pounds at stake competition is rife and the pressure is high move over selling sunset so guys as you can see this is an unbelievable property because you're the top biller for quarter two chloe you are the top biller for quarter one we've got alex breathing down his neck you've got to find the buyers 75 80 000 pounds of net commission for you guys to earn i mean that is not a bad day in the office definitely isn't so who here is ready to sell this house yes it's me come on let's do it come on then well i'm joined by two members of the cast chloe cable who's a senior partner and sophie lee who's an associate welcome to women's

hour both of you chloe i'm going to come to you first because you became the youngest senior partner at the business at the age of 19 which is really impressive what led you into this industry why did you want to become an estate agent so um i was actually in a state agency for a couple of months before i joined i tried uni for a couple of months too but joined. I tried uni for a couple of months too, but it just was not for me. And, you know, I kind of went into the luxury end of the market with a mindset of, I wanted to do it how they do it in the United States. But unfortunately there's nothing in the UK

or there wasn't anything in the UK that was even close to what we do. My boss, Ty, he gave me a position actually through LinkedIn. He sent me a message because I kept putting open opportunities and everything like that. And I won't lie, I did ignore it for a good month. However, I decided, you know what, I've got nothing to lose. Let me just have a conversation with him.

And it's completely changed my life. And it's probably the best thing I've done. When you said you wanted to sell like they do in the United States, what do you mean? I mean, estate agency in the UK is boring. It there's not there's no excitement behind it at all um i mean you look at the us and you've got like open houses you've got kind of bigger the houses are almost the amazing events where you've got people coming for open houses you're holding these like fantastic kind of almost like canopies and we've got champagne out for people it's just it's fantastic and i mean the use of social media um as well it's really really exciting we get to do fantastic video

tours and everything like that as well yeah tell us about these videos because you have to be quite innovative don't you tell us about some of the ways that you've advertised these houses on social media yeah i mean if you speak to sophie sophie's been jumping in pools we've been um come on then, Sophie. Tell us about some of these videos that you've made for social media to advertise these megabucks mansions that you're selling.

Yeah, I think the biggest key for us with our video tours and the reason why we stand out so much is because we're all our own individuals at the end of the day and you have to be very creative and you have to sell a lifestyle with every property that you take on. So for for me I like to really step outside the box you know

I jump in swimming pools in my clothes like I'll be in a hot tub I'll do backflips on trampolines because the reason why you do this is when people watch the videos they always remember who the agent is they will always remember what the property is and because you've done something different that's what stands out. I'll tell you what stood out for me when i was watching it is actually one of the things is just how aggressive it is amongst all of you the competition to get that sale and the way you are incentivized is that a word to use about tyron's methods i mean he yeah he publicly shames you if you don't make any money. Yep.

Come on, tell us about that, Sophie, because he publicly shamed you. What is it, the cowboy hat that you're given? Yeah, well, it's a very cutthroat industry. And at the end of the day, you know, Ty does put a lot of pressure on us, but he only does it because he wants the best out of all of us as agents, because he sees all of the potential with us. So, you know like I did take my foot off the gas quite a bit and yeah you know it got a bit tough for me over the series of when we were filming but I didn't give up I kept going you know I sort of battled with Alex quite a bit but you know towards the end of the episodes when

um when they're aired on tv you know everyone will sort of see the story unfold with them it's quite a male-dominated environment, though, isn't it? There's a lot of testosterone. And I imagine a lot of cologne in that room as well. Correct. Go on, you're both laughing. Tell me what you're thinking, Chloe. I mean, look, the property industry is always going to be a male-dominated market.

However, you know, you don't see many women in the industry. We do face issues about sometimes um not particularly within the business it's more client facing i mean both me and sophie and i can imagine every single woman in our business has had situations where a guy has been completely inappropriate um and completely saying the wrong things um and it's just it's just something that you shouldn't have to experience but unfortunately we do. We have to be very, very careful. We're going to houses on our own sometimes.

We have a lot of methods. I mean, Ty's put things in place which, you know, we can check in when we're in meetings that we have to do. Like what? So we just brought something out. So basically what we're doing at the moment is when we go to a meeting, you have to obviously let whoever know where you're going, especially someone who's nearby. Even if it's a family or friend that might

be nearby um and as soon as we get in the meeting we have to check in to say that we're here we're all okay and then we also check in midway through the meeting and um you know if you don't have a midway through check and or you know you haven't sent that text over then that's when alarm bells start raising but have you ever had. Have you ever had anything happen? No, never had anything happen. But, you know, you don't actually know. I think you can never be too prepared for it because there's some awful people out there

and I just don't want to take any risks with anything. Because as well as, you know, showing properties to people, I mean, amazing properties, Sophie, you're also cold calling by walking streets, aren't you, to try and get amazing properties sophie you are you're also cold calling but by walking streets aren't you to try and get these properties as listings yeah yeah that's correct um obviously for us it's very important for us to build our social media platform but when we go out prospecting you know it is quite difficult for us to be able to get properties on but at the end of the day how we still sort of see it in our eyes is that you know a seller

employs an agent to do one thing and that's sell the property. And there is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of properties that are sitting out there on the market. You know, they're losing value and their agents are just, quite frankly, not selling the property. So they're the properties that we try to target. And, you know, by implementing all of our strategies, we end up selling these properties in the best time frame and very well and you are all incredibly glamorous the boys and the girls i have to say how important is it for you to be dressed as sharply as you are i really do think that you know how you present yourself as a massive massive thing um just purely because the types of houses that we're going to approach you know you're talking like three four five plus million pound houses with anything if you see someone and they're not taking

care of themselves instantly you'll have kind of a doubt as to whether or not they're actually I know it sounds awful but it's just kind of the world we live in but I feel like if you're presenting yourself well throughout and you know you go into this meeting strong you stay distracted in what you're doing um you know you don't i feel like people might have more trust in you to actually do what you're saying because you look the part and chloe you're actually i just need to you're sitting at the airport right now i am are you going somewhere for business or pleasure um no pleasure it's been a very very long month stressful month how have you both done this month actually the whole program is about

money and how much you earn so can you tell us how much kind of how much you've made whilst you've been working for them uh what in total of power now yeah i mean it's edging on about i don't know exact figures to date but it's edging on over like 130 000 which isn't bad but it's over what time frame uh I think almost over like 18 months maybe now but my first year was a lot of learning um and then I was made a senior partner so essentially I took on everyone else's work as well um so I kind of did in a way I took my foot off the gas with my own work because I was putting time into my team however they're all self-sufficient now um which is what I wanted them to be like.

And they're doing really well. So that was important to me. And Sophie, very quickly, there might be someone listening thinking, that sounds nice to me. What are the skills that you need to be able to do this? Apart from being able to hustle very hard. I think you have to have confidence.

Like confidence is a big factor. And you also have to have self-belief in what you're doing. You know, there's a lot of different you also have to have self-belief in what you're doing you know there's there's a lot of different qualities that we all have as agents and you know Ty takes on you know a very very diverse amount of agents you know none of us are the same we don't we don't like lots of us don't have any qualifications you know as long as you've got like a good attitude and a will to want to succeed Ty teaches you the ropes the through. So, you know, I didn't have much experience

when I came into this job. You know, I sort of learned the whole process as we went along. And sometimes that's, you know, it's like the beauty behind what we do. And it just goes to show that you can be anyone, no matter what background you come from. As long as you put your mindset to it, you can do it.

Chloe and Sophie, thank you very much for joining me. And you can see them on Mega Mansion Hunters on Channel 4 if you fancy a bit of property porn. There's some very nice houses indeed. Now my next guest has done it all, a music career with chart success, television and the theatre. But Sheila Ferguson is probably best known for being one third of the soul singing trio, the Three Degrees.

Sheila is now taking to the stage once again to play matron Mama Morton in the iconic musical Chicago. And I'm delighted to say Sheila joins me now. What goes through your mind when you hear that song, Sheila? Interestingly, Anita, what goes through my mind now is how there was a resurgence of the song during the lockdowns because everybody was alone for so long. And I had just moved from Mallorca so I could move back to England and start dating. And what happens? COVID. And I still couldn't go out. So I'm thinking, when will I see any guy again? I love it. I love that. Oh, Jesus. Good morning. Sheila, you know, I was going to work up to asking you about the sort of the situation with guys in your life, but we've gone straight for it.

So how is your love life at the moment? Well, it's pretty non-existent, but there's hope on the horizon. There's hope on the horizon. Always. Always. Yeah, but particularly now, yes. I've reconnected with a guy that, he was actually the first guy or person to put a tennis racket in my hand.

And he was my coach in Puerto Rico in the late 60s before anybody heard of the three degrees. And we started talking and WhatsAppping and all of a sudden now he's coming over to see the show. Sheila, I am actually sort of fizzing with excitement for you. So somebody, you've reconnected with someone from your past. And I haven't seen him in over 50 years. Have you spoken to him?

Do you know what the guy looks like? Oh, yes. We WhatsApp and we speak every night. Has he aged well? Yes, he has. And I haven't done too badly. Well, we know how you are. You are doing great.

The one thing you do not do after having done the dating site thing for a minute, you do not meet anybody you don't see physically before you meet them because a lot of times they put up the wrong picture. Yes. Yeah. So I learned my lesson the hard way. But now it looks like love is in the air. Things are on the up.

Everything is on the up. You've got romance looming and you're back on tour with Chicago playing matron Mama Mawson. I know, I know. It's unbelievable after two years of nothingness and to be back on stage and in front of an audience,

which I haven't done since, oh, three years, and seeing people, which I haven't done since oh three years and seen people which I haven't seen for two years and um and and to be with such a wonderful wonderful group of people and it's such a slick show I mean I I I feel so blessed I really am blessed I mean it's such a an iconic show in so many ways particularly because it explores female sexual liberation and empowerment. And that's something that has changed so much since the show first started. Why do you think it continues to be such a huge success? I think it continues to be a huge success because the choreography is slick, the lighting is slick, the directorship is slick, the music is slick.

And what I am particularly enjoying is the fact that the band are on stage with us. So I get that vibe that I got in the 70s when I would walk out and I would feel the groove and the vibe of the people. Whereas nowadays when I walk onto a stage to do a concert, I walk out to a sea of phones and cameras. And it's not quite the same thing. But with Chicago, you got that vibe going. I mean, I sit in the wings and I marvel at everyone who's on stage because everybody's a star in that show, even the band. Every person in that show I could rave about. And that is an honor because I am a hard critic. I'm hard on myself, so you know I'm hard on other people. You keep everyone on their toes, Sheila. Uh-huh. I do. I do. I do. But no, I think

the fact that the reason it's survived is because they've also stayed true to the original, the original licensees of the, I mean, Tim Reed and Steph, sorry, St Stacy Hayes, they were pedantic about it being exactly as written. The choreography, the singing. I mean, I can't really do a Luther Vandross with Mama, You've Been Good to Mama. I've got to sing it the way it was written. Can you give us a little bit? No, but I get a little bit of freedom at the end to do a little bit of Fergusonisms in it, but very little because it has to stay true to the original. And I respect that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll just come and see

you to get a burst. You know, I didn't know this about you, but you had your own sitcom back in the early 90s, Land of Hope and Gloria, something that isn't celebrated enough. But I did actually watch an episode of it. I found one. Why do you think there hasn't been a show like that since? I have no idea, but I think it's quite a disgrace that people are just realizing that I had one in 1989. Yeah. And the reason I was listening to the show before I came on the air,

and one of the reasons I wrote the book, Soul Food Classically in the American South, which traces the roots of African-American food back to slavery, was so that my children, who were growing up here, would have an idea of African-American history. And when I went to the States to oversee the photography for the book, I took them to Disneyland to get a break from my family. You know, when you visit my family, you need a vacation when you finish. So anyway, we went to Disney World. And I kept doing a double take at the TV, and I couldn't

figure out why. And I'd been living in England since 1983. And I thought, okay, you know, I'm anglicized a bit. And I kept doing double takes because I was seeing ethnic people on TV, which I did not see in England. I was seeing black, Hispanic, Latino, all these kinds of Indian people. And I'm like, when I get back to England, I'm going to do a sitcom. And I went back to England and I got my own sitcom. Which is incredible. You know, the power to be able to get that away. I go for it. I just go for it. And do you think we've caught up? Okay. Have we still got a long way to go here in the UK?

Who? In terms of representation on screen. Why do you think we're so far behind the States? I think at the moment, quite politically, I think there's a problem around the world with politics. And I think that's impeding the, I mean, the business has been shut down for two years. So I'm not going to negate it in any way,

but I do think there needs to be more diversity on TV with regard to comedy, with regard to ethnicity, with regard to all these kinds of things that England needs to step up to the plate. I mean, there's a million black shows in America. You don't have that here. And it needs to change. I wanted to ask you a bit about the soul music here in the 70s and actually being there at the time and in lots of ways had stood the test of time.

Did it feel important at the time when you were there? Actually, we were all working musicians. So it never occurred to us that our music would outlive us. I mean, we would be recording in L.A., and Stevie Wonder would call, or Maurice from Earth, Wind & Fire, and he would say, Come on, when you guys finish with Giorgio Moroder, we'll see you at Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles. And we would go there, and we would eat,

and we would talk about, I'll say that you remember. And they were recording that and Stevie was recording this. There was a camaraderie. Gladys Knight would pop in. There was a camaraderie with all of these groups that still exist today.

I mean, I could call them now on my phone or vice versa. And I think that we've stood the test of time because the music is still loved, so loved by the public. Indeed, yeah. Did you ever meet Betty Davis? She died yesterday.

Who? Iconic Betty Davis. Miles Davis. No, you got me. You got me on that one. Funk singer. Becky Davis? You will recognise it.

We're going to play out with some of her music. Don't worry. I need to ask you about your experience doing the real Marigold hotel we saw you on it in 2017 you said it changed your life it did because um until then i had been living alone in mallorca for over 10 years and i mean alone alone and i hadn't dated because when you go out in mallorca if you go to uh pubs that or clubs that are english you're going to get recognized if you go to pubs or clubs that are English, you're going to get recognized. If you go to Spanish ones, they tend to stay very insular. They're very insular people, so they stay to themselves. So I didn't go out. And I came back from India, and I sat,

and I overlooked the Mediterranean and all these beautiful yachts. I had a beautiful home there. And I thought, do I want to live here for the rest of my life and die like Miss Havisham at this table? No. I'm moving back to England where I can have a life and go out and date and meet people. I moved back. I mean, there's an irony there. There's got to be a happy ending to this. I know it. I know it. I promise. Sheila, there is going to be a happy ending. Please will you come back and tell us when is certainly will. When is this chap arriving from? Where is he coming from? Overseas.

Okay. Just overseas. He'll be here. Do we get a name? Can you share a name? No, no, no, no, no. If it doesn't work out, it never happens. Okay, fair dues.

But he's definitely coming. He's definitely flying over. He's booked. He's booked. All right. And if this happens, please will you come back and tell us about it? Listen, I will. If it happens, it'll be the love story of the century believe me oh sheila ferguson thank you so much and as peter has just tweeted to say sheila ferguson at bbc woman's hour is bringing total joy indeed you have thank you so much and best of luck with the tour uh that's it

the end of the program and we are going to end with the grandmother of funk, Betty Davis, who Sheila will definitely recognise. We heard the news that she died yesterday, she was 77 and in a rare interview when she looked back at her career she said, I wrote about love really and all the levels of love. Have a great weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour, join us again next time. Hi, I'm John Ronson and I want to tell you about a new podcast I've made for BBC Radio 4. It's called Things Fell Apart. If you've ever yelled at someone on social media about, say, cancel culture or mask wearing,

then you are a soldier in the culture wars, those everyday battles for dominance between conflicting values. I was curious to learn how things fell apart, and so I decided to go back in history and find the origin stories. There was this ping, and there was a bullet flying around the house. I had no idea, but I've uncovered some extraordinary people and the strangest, most consequential tales. Subscribe now to Things Fell Apart on BBC Sounds. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.