Woman's Hour - Cricketer Nat Sciver-Brunt, Smacking, Hypochondria, Police drama Blue Lights, Soul Sisters Pakistan

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

Nat Sciver-Brunt is the first English woman to be honored as Wisden's leading cricketer in the world. She joins Jesscia Creighton to discuss the accolade and her career in the sport. Smacking children should be made illegal in England and Northern Ireland, say the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. Striking a child is already illegal in Scotland and Wales, and in many other countries around the world. Dr Rowena Christmas, Chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners, talks about the ban in Wales, which she was instrumental in bringing in, and which has been in place for the last two years.A self-described hypochrondriac, the author Caroline Crampton's new book A Body of Glass is a personal memoir and history of this elusive conditon. Beginning in the age of Hippocrates she joins Jessica to discuss the gendered history of this outdated term and her realtionship with it. The actor Sian Brooke returns as Grace Ellis for the second series of Blue Lights on BBC One. She joins Jessica to talk about the role, and what she's learnt from diving into the world of policing in Belfast. Social media platform Meta disabled Soul Sisters Pakistan for 43 hours earlier this month due to an intellectual property violation. Soul Sisters Pakistan was set up 11 years ago by the entrepreneur and activist Kanwal Ahmed as a support system for women to discuss topics considered taboo in Pakistani society, such as sex and divorce. In the past, the group has been accused by some of promoting divorce and 'wild' behavior. With over 300,000 members, who dub themselves soulies, she joins Jessica to discuss.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Now, as you might have heard in the news, a new report on smacking children is calling for it to be made illegal in England and Northern Ireland, as it already is in Scotland and Wales. We'll be speaking to a doctor in Wales about how the smacking law has impacted healthcare professionals and Wales. We'll be speaking to a doctor in Wales about how the smacking law has impacted healthcare professionals and parents. Also on the programme, the history of hypochondria and why it is often a term levelled at women more so than men. Plus, a leading women's community

in Pakistan received global attention recently when their Facebook group was suddenly shut down. We'll hear from the founder about getting it reinstated and how she created a safe space for women throughout Pakistan to discuss subjects that were often considered taboo. We'll also be hearing from the newly crowned leading women's cricketer in the world. And she's English. Nat Siverbrunt tells us about winning this latest honour

after an incredible 2023 season. And live in the studio will be the star of popular BBC police drama Blue Lights, which has recently returned for a second series. Sian Brooke will talk to us about the challenges of playing a police officer in Northern Ireland. Now, as always, if there's anything on the program that you'd like to comment on, anything you feel you relate to, disagree with or have an experience of, do get in touch. You can text the program on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note as well on 03700100444. Be careful of the data charges. You might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. We're always on social media as

well, using the handle at BBC Women's Hour, and you can email us through our website. But first this morning, smacking children should be made illegal in England and Northern Ireland. That's according to the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.

They call the current laws unjust and dangerously vague. Their report warns that children suffer lasting mental and physical effects from being hit in the home. Now, striking a child is already illegal in Scotland and Wales and in many other countries around the world, in fact. The government says that parents are trusted to discipline their children and a Department for Education spokesperson said any form of violence towards a child is completely unacceptable and we have clear laws in place to prevent it. But child health experts say children should be given the same protection as adults.

Dr Rowena Christmas is the chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners in Wales and she was actually instrumental in introducing the ban there which has been in place for about two years I believe. Good morning Dr Rowena. Good morning thank you for having me on. Thanks for coming on. Just tell us more about this smacking ban in Wales and what exactly it means for children and for parents. Well, it's much easier for us now. You know, it's so clear. We can just explain as GPs or health visitors. All of us just have a very straightforward line. It's not legal to smack your child anymore. And we can back that up with all sorts of reasons why it's not a good thing to do. Before the ban came in place, there was a very ambiguous situation where you were

allowed to smack your child so long as that didn't cause reddening of the skin that lasted for more than a certain period of time. And you can imagine, you know, different children have different skin colours, different sort of reactions to a smack. It was really unclear for parents and for health professionals. Okay, so it's much clearer now. But what do we know about smacking as a technique, as a discipline technique? Has it been proved to be effective? It has been proved in dozens and dozens of studies that I looked at sort of to prepare the evidence for Welsh government to not be effective at all. And comes virtually all the studies I looked at sort of to prepare the evidence for Welsh government to not be effective at all. And comes virtually all the studies I looked at showed that there were

significant risks to children who were subjected to this form of discipline. It can impact their relationship with their parents or their carers negatively. It can affect children's mental health and also their mental health as they go into adulthood. It can make children a bit more likely to be aggressive if they see their mums and dads deal with the situation with violence. They can do that themselves in the school. And it can make them more likely to be bullied, but also it can make them more likely to be bullies themselves. And then even moving into adulthood, there's an increased risk of them abusing their own spouse or their children. And they're more at risk of being criminals themselves when they go into adulthood.

So there's just so many reasons that this is a bad thing. So we're seeing what you believe to be our knock-on effects from being hit in the home. As it stands at present in England and Northern Ireland, parents might be able to argue that slapping, smacking is reasonable punishment to avoid breaking the law. So you believe that under no circumstances that should be allowed and the law in England and Northern Ireland needs to go that one step further. I absolutely think that and it's really, really helpful to have a straightforward, non-ambiguous message and, you know, I'm safeguarding lead for Wales for RCGP and there are times when you're trying to work out is this child at risk of physical abuse and the parents could say, oh, no, this was just reasonable punishment. This was because they'd been naughty. I'd smacked them. It now removes all of that sort of difficulty working out what's going on. You can just tell parents, no, this isn't the right

thing to do. But to be honest, the majority of parents that I see who've smacked their child, they'll often come in to see me in morning surgery, very distressed themselves, explaining that they've lost their temper and smacked their child and asking what to do about it. We know from studies that 85% of parents who smack their children say they do it in the heat of the moment, in anger. And that's terribly frightening for children. If they see their mum or dad have got cross and then they're smacking them, there's none of the calm, rational sort of, this is what will happen if you do the wrong thing, understanding beforehand. So, parents need that extra support. If they know there's a line that they have crossed that then is sort of moving them into criminal territory, they're much less likely to smack their children.

And that's what we've seen in Wales. I wonder if you've come across any parents who have said, I do smack my child and they think it helps. Not as a way of them releasing their own anger, but of just being able to discipline a child that doesn't go anywhere near, you know, grievous body harm or anything like that, doesn't, they believe, go over that line. I've definitely come across that. And this is a really polarised debate. So, you know, you tend to have people who strongly advocate for and against, and then the sort of

majority of people are somewhere in the middle. Of course, there are parents who are good parents who have smacked their child. But that doesn't mean it's the right thing for their child. They may believe it's doing their child no harm. But the studies are very clear that it actually does cause harm. And you can do something else. You know, you can do timeout or removal of privileges, which actually is more inconvenient for the child. It gives them a longer period of time to reflect on what they've done and here's the consequences of it. So that seems to be a much more sort of effective means of giving your child some discipline. So, you know, no screen time or you can't have sweeties this Friday or you're going to have to sit on the step for two minutes. Those strategies in a calm and reasoned way so that

child knows what the consequences are and why are far more effective. Okay. So looking at other techniques that you can use to discipline, are there any parents who have fallen foul of the law since it's been in place in Wales in the last two years? To the best of my knowledge, no, absolutely not. And actually, we really strongly pushed that message when we brought the law in. This is not about criminalising parents. This is about keeping children safer and giving a very clear message to parents that it's not the right thing to do and there will be consequences if you do it. But no, to the best of my knowledge, no parent in Wales has been criminalised. And that's across Europe

where there's other countries where they've been smacking bans. Parents are not being criminalised as a result of this. It's just generally improving parenting. And how difficult is it to go from where Wales were two years ago in not having the ban to bringing that ban into place? Does it take a number of years? Because as we stand, the UK government say they have no plans on changing the law. I think legislation always takes time. You know, these things are slow, but parental attitudes are changing all the time. And what sort of a decade ago would have been seen as reasonable behaviour, now far fewer parents are thinking it's acceptable to smack their children.

So yes, it might take time to bring the legislation in, but I feel it's worth it. And that shouldn't be a reason not to press on. Dr. Wynne at Christmas, Chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners in Wales, thank you for coming on to the programme this morning.

And already some of our listeners have got in touch. Tristan has said this, I don't understand why we can't smack children. I personally have never smacked any children as I haven't needed to, as they are amazing and have been brought up so well. But some children definitely need taking in hand. How else will they be taught? Some children slash young adults have no discipline and order. How are we meant to teach these people? By being weak and letting them get away with their behaviour?

Question. Mary also saying this, smacking and shaking must be banned. Thank you for everyone that's getting in touch. Do continue to. You can text, you can WhatsApp or voice note as well. If you feel you'd rather get your message across that way. And we're also on social media at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, you can get in touch about anything you hear

over the course of this morning throughout the programme. Now, some have described it as the cricket equivalent of the Oscars. Nat Siverbrunce has won the Wisden Leading Cricketer in the World Award, and it's the first time it's been won by an English woman in its 10-year history. She's been a key player for England since her debut back in 2013, helping them to win the World Cup on home soil back in 2017. She was also named the Women's Cricketer of the Year in 2022 and then again in 2023. She even has a shot named after her. That's when you know you've really made it. I spoke to her earlier about what it means to receive

this latest honour. It feels pretty, pretty special. Yeah, I took a little moment yesterday actually and felt a bit emotional about things. I'm not really sure why, maybe it's just a time latest honour? It feels pretty pretty special yeah I took a little moment yesterday actually and felt a bit emotional about things I'm not really sure why maybe it's just the time of the month but yeah really really proud and yeah I keep getting these messages from family and people that I know so yeah it's it's been pretty special. Why did it make you feel emotional? I don't know I guess at the time I was sort of taking stock of what I've done and also what my wife Catherine's done as well, of course. Actually, when you're in it, you don't really realise, I guess, the impact you could have or, you know, the role model you could become or

the things that you could do. You've achieved many things on and off the cricket field. Where there's this one rate? Pretty high. I think probably not as high as the 2017 World Cup. And yeah, as a person, my goal was never to win individual, personal accolades and things like that. But if I could help my team win something or inspire some people along the way. Yeah, I'd be really happy. You mentioned England winning the World Cup there being one of the highlights of your career.

That was back in 2017. That felt like a breakthrough moment for women's cricket, particularly because that World Cup was in England. Is that how you felt? Yeah, yeah. I think we'd not really experienced anything like that in terms of the crowds that followed us and all the teams around and yeah it felt it did feel like a big moment at the time and we always sort of look back on that and think that was probably

the start of I guess our journey now but you know when you're in it you're like this is such a big moment like things could really accelerate from here and then we had covid and a couple of things that probably didn't didn't help that but yeah we're in such a good position now uh women's cricket that the summer that we had last year the amount of people that came to watch us and who are just interested in us and just things that make cricket a bit more normal and put it in people's eyeline a bit more. Yeah, cricket's in a pretty cool space at the minute. Yeah, more people are watching it than ever before. It's getting more media exposure as well. If you compare where it is now to where it was

when you made your debut for England back in 2013, what are the major differences? I think just, I guess probably the professionalism of it all and the amount of cricket that we play all year round. We've got opportunities outside of international cricket as well. And just the game has really exploded. And obviously that's helped with a lot more money and provision provided to us in the game and throughout from international to grassroots cricket. So, yeah, it's come a long way, cricket. You mentioned the money there,

and you are now the highest paid female team athlete in the UK, thanks to your role with the Mumbai Indians in the Women's Indian Premier League, which is another important achievement. Do you see it that way? Do you see the fact that you're earning more now as a player as important? Yeah, because we dedicate our whole year to it

and make sacrifices in that, you know, you can't go with your mates to this concert or a weekend away or whatever it is in the summer. And yeah, it's nice to to be paid whilst you're whilst you're doing a job that you really love gonna be hard to find something that I love doing as much as playing cricket I guess when I'm finished so making the most of it now is is really important I mean when I started I had absolutely no idea that this would happen I was just happy to play and get onto the team and

take it a bit light-heartedly because you're not really there's not really any pressure to do well because you're not like there's no pressure on you to keep your contract or you know things like that and from when I started to now people coming in now have got to be used to the pressures of media or the pressure of performing enough to to keep your contract or whatever it is it's there's a different mindset now cricket's come a long way and changed quite a lot you mentioned the pressure there and you've been quite outspoken in speaking about mental health and you personally taking time away from the game to deal with your mental health did you learn a lot about yourself in that process and and I suppose why did you feel the need to talk out because you could have done that process in private yeah I could have well at the start it

was important for me to take a break and so much more needed than I realized I guess and when you're in it you're like oh I can't let people down I can't leave the team hanging or it ultimately the best thing for me was to take a break. Actually making that decision is the hardest part about probably realising that you've succumbed to the pressure or whatever it is at the time. But the best thing for you. And, yeah, speaking out was important

because I know there's so many people on the team that at times have a really difficult time, but don't realise that actually they can make it better or there are things that they could do. But yeah, mental health is so important to sport, to everyday life, to everything and yeah it just made me realize little things that I guess I could use to tell me that you know maybe I'm not okay at the moment I need to you know have a day for myself or try and think on things that will I guess put things in perspective so that you know whatever it is in my head that is is going on doesn't seem so big but actually whenever I speak about it or speak to you know someone close to me or you know the coaches or the team support staff it doesn't seem as big so yeah whenever it's in it's locked away in the mind it always gets bigger

than it really is I think. And you've spoken out about the support that you had in particular from your partner who you have mentioned already but for those that don't know is Catherine Siverbrunt who used to play alongside you for England so tell us what is it like playing at the elite level traveling the world playing cricket with your partner it's pretty great actually I don't know why people don't do it more often yeah it's it's a special thing I guess in that we are able to we have a relationship and that we're able to live in in each other's pockets for most of the year and not get too annoyed at each other that's congratulations that's a feat in itself yeah but no it's it's it's really special to have someone there that you know you can look

to in the hard times and also celebrate celebrate things with as well and yeah that is really meaningful we're always we were always a bit wary of, I guess, not flaunting it, but people, you know, people's partners couldn't travel away all the time. And obviously when they did, we all had such a brilliant time. But yeah, we didn't want to flaunt it too much. And everyone, like people in the team were like, you guys can just like have a day together. You don't need to come and do this all the time. We're like, yeah yeah it's fine like we're happy but she's obviously retired so we've we're sort of transitioning into what that looks like and her not being around all the time although she did come away with me to part of the WPL and to New Zealand so she couldn't keep away and she's also been commentating

on occasions on you whilst you're playing cricket yeah I don't think away. And she's also been commentating on occasions on you whilst you're playing cricket. Yeah. I don't think that is what she was really signing up for when she went into commentary because she doesn't like watching me play anyway. So it's much better when we're on the pitch together. But yeah, she's been really enjoying the commentary

and has got a lot of really good feedback actually. But yeah, she's just working out what she wants to do and where she wants to and Catherine never does anything by half so yeah that that decision is quite informative but yeah it's it's such a great thing to have that that support from your spouse whilst doing things that is can be really under pressure and really difficult at times but also but also riding the highs and lows with you is something that we'll cherish. Now, Nat, you've won countless awards over the years. In 2018, you were one of five Wisden Cricketers of the Year.

In 2022, you won the Professional Crickets Association Women's Player of the Year. I could on the professional crickets association women's player of the year i could go on and on and on but one of the major things that says i've made it in cricket is you've got a shot named after you the nat meg tell me about this because this is incredible yeah that's kind of gone to sleep a little bit actually well let's bring it back to life shall we well yeah but usually it's due to a technical flaw so maybe it's that's a good thing um but yeah i was i yeah i was playing in the world cup in 2017 and i mean i'd actually done it before and our media manager caught it on video but she didn't really do anything with it but yeah we were obviously on tv and i played this this shot because the ball

has got to be in a really specific place like i've got out doing this as well so okay so it's quite risky embarrassing well i suppose all cricket shots you can get out to as well so yeah i think the commentators at the time must have, you know, gone to town on the shot and asked people to name it. And so, yeah, the Nat Meg stuck. And, yeah, since then I've done quite a lot of videos about it, which I get increasingly embarrassed about because it was sort of an accident. And then, yeah, I'm just doing what I can not to get out as a batter.

That was England cricketer Nat Siverbrunt talking to me a little bit earlier. She's recently became the leading cricketer in the world as awarded by Wisden. Now, last year, it drew more than six million viewers to BBC One. Now, police drama Blue Lights is back and the first reviews have been very complimentary indeed. This series of course centres on a group of rookie police officers in Northern Ireland. One of those is Grace Ellis, a woman

in her 40s who was previously a social worker. Grace is played by the brilliant Sian Brook who is sitting across from me in the Women's Hour studio. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Great to see you. So for anyone who hasn't seen Blue Lights firstly I don't know where they've been but how would you how would you summarise it to people? I would say it's a police drama set in modern day Belfast and it sort of shows how these three rookies navigate this new world against the backdrop of Belfast itself.

And we meet them at the beginning when they just start out after police training. And then we follow them and how they sort of relationships are formed, friendships within the force and also the people that they meet within this incredible city. And how would you describe your character Grace? She seems like someone who just really wants to make the world a better place. How would you sum her up? I would say exactly that. I would say she's quite a selfless character. She is determined in her own way to make the place or the small part that she lives in that little bit better. I mean, we came, we started shooting and we sort of embarked upon the journey of Blue Lights at the tail end of COVID when the world was a little bit topsy-turvy and a little bit crazy, and for me, I found that I was quite baffled by public figures that I might see

and the choices that they made in terms of the sense of morality and social conscience. And so with Grace, I feel so blessed to play somebody that makes choices for the right reasons. She isn't in the public domain, so she's just doing it because she believes in a sense of community and that essentially at the end of the day, people are good. And she might make mistakes and she might mess up but she tries in a in a world that can often feel quite cynical that's quite a rare quality isn't it it is it is and i think she's described and i think myself i've probably described her as naively optimistic at times which I think does her an injustice.

And I suppose recently I thought, well, what's the opposite of that? What's the opposite of that? And I would say it's apathy. And isn't it better to be optimistic that, you know, maybe blindly optimistic, but that that might bring about change rather than just sitting back and not doing anything. did it help that the fact that your dad was a police officer, did that give you an upper handing in knowing more about how to portray a police officer? Yeah, I would definitely say. I mean, you know, the thing is, that's my job. My job is to put myself in the shoes of whichever character I'm playing

and to make sense of the choices that they make. And the same with Cressida Dick in that drama, which was highlighting failures within the police in that investigation. I had to sort of understand why she made those choices, be it right or wrong. And then the same with Grace. And the thing is with my dad and sort of growing up in a household where he was a police officer,

I could see the person behind the uniform that, you know, it was a real human being. It was a dad, you know, and so that gave me an insight, I suppose, into the world of policing. And also there wasn't a sort of barrier between myself and the uniform. I think so often when we see people, you know, in whatever service it might be, paramedics, you know, fire service, you see the uniform first. So I definitely think that gave me a different angle, I suppose. And you tried to bring that out in Blue Lights and Grace, I suppose a more humanised version of a police officer almost,

or at least you wanted to highlight the human version of a police officer. Yeah, definitely. And that's the beauty of the writing, I think, with her. Well, with all of them, I suppose, is that I suppose I was thinking about it and she you know I don't look upon it as I am playing a police officer I look upon it as I am playing a character that happens to be a police officer so I'm trying to play all of the facets of this woman and what she is um but she is a police you know at the end of the day that what she does. I think we do see that because there are quite some hard hitting themes in the series, Blue Lights.

We see people struggling with drug addiction. We see gang violence. We see shooting. But then we also see these moments of interaction between the characters. There's a part where you bring out a container full of baked goods for one of your love interests in the show, and it's just a nice human moment, a humorous moment, that shows, I suppose, a 360-degree character, not just, I'm a police officer, that is all I'm about.

Totally, and I think that is part of the genius of the writing and Blue Lights in that you know it's telling a story of what modern-day Belfast is and societal issues that you know are happening there if not all over the place so it's it's brave storytelling and it's not going to shy away from that. So it works on that level in terms of a police procedural drama. But yet it works on the level of just being humans and relationships and dynamics. And I think that's maybe why it's slightly different.

And maybe that is why it's sort of been so popular in terms of the response that we've had um it it's been incredible because it does i think work on those so many levels and and it and it sort of um flits from one to the other so quickly um but that's the genius of the writing um and that's also real life, isn't it? That's what happens. You can't dictate, I am going to just be happy all day. You can't, so.

Tell me about the writing, because you mentioned it there. How aware were you that the need to get that particular region of the world, Northern Ireland, accurate and authentic? Oh, gosh. I think think this from the moment I read these scripts it was immediate that I could see how much care and consideration had gone into telling this story and that comes from the top down it comes from amazing executive producers Stephen Wright and Louise Gallagher to our our brilliant writers, Adam Patterson and Declan Lorne. And they are from Northern Ireland.

They grew up there. They grew up through the Troubles. They understand the dynamics of what it is now. And I think they have an immense appreciation for the responsibility to tell this story accurately um and i know and i think also they the writers themselves come from a journalistic background and and i think you can see that in the writing or i could in that they've seen life in all its forms you know in human behavior um and the best of life and the worst of life and i think they have somehow been able to distill that into this show and the reviews have been very good

the other reviews uh telegraph saying that it's much must watch tv the irish times saying simply it's just really good telly um and it has been recommissioned for series three and four so what would it be like for you to to be in assuming that you are you continue into series three and four in a long running role like that that would be the longest running role you've had in tv i believe um i have i have done the show um but yes it's it's quite a treat to come and do that as an actor but you know it's blue lights and i can't I can't say that I would definitely be in it. Who knows? It's unpredictable.

Do you know what I mean? It's unpredictable knowing what happened in series one. But yes, the prospect of doing a show and staying with a character for that length of time is such a treat as an actor because you get to revisit, you know, the first time around you're putting the paint on the canvas and you're you're desperately wanting that it's the right colour and the right picture and the right this so that you can show this world in all its glory and then when you revisit it you are able to put a little bit more detail onto that picture and breathe a little bit in that character

and maybe let go a little bit more. So, yeah, the prospect to be able to do that for two more seasons is really a delicious thought. Delicious thought. And I bet you the people listening who watch the show will be so glad to hear you say that because it's been so, so popular. Might there be anything else that we see you in? Have you got any future projects in the works that you can tell us about?

Yes, another series which we're bringing out, series four, which is called Trying, which is on Apple where I play a highly opinionated and somewhat unlikable person at times called Karen. And I absolutely love playing her. It's about a couple that try to adopt and the process, and believe it or not, it's a comedy. It's very, very funny and very warm. And so that's coming out on Apple TV. And then I've got something called Supercell which is on Netflix which is a superhero story set in southwest London all filmed in southwest

London it's a wonderful I'm really excited it's going to be out soon. Okay so that's a quite a vast array of different roles that you'll be playing very much looking forward to that. Thank you Sian it's been a that. Thank you, Sian. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. Sian Brooke, who stars in the latest series of Blue Lights, which is the BBC drama. You can watch all the episodes on BBC iPlayer right now, or you could even do it the old-fashioned way

and wait until Monday next week, where episode two is on BBC One at nine o'clock. Sian, thank you. Thank you. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now. I just want to come to a few more of the messages that we've been getting in. Lots of you getting in touch about smacking and the new report saying that it should be made illegal to smack children in England and Northern Ireland, as it already is in Scotland and Wales. This message comes in from Christina in Birmingham. Smacking children is at very best the most lazy form of parenting. Learn to discipline your child in ways that doesn't involve violence. I have three children and it can be difficult, but I wouldn't dream of smacking them in the same way. I wouldn't expect

to be hit by anyone for any reason. Another message. I was a children's social worker for many years. The way I learned to understand smacking is simply to ask, would you smack an adult for not doing what you wanted? The only reason we smack children is because we can. There are other ways of teaching boundaries. Smacking is about adult frustration. It's not easy, but it doesn't help either side. That one anonymous.

Andrew says, I once smacked my son when he was about 10. He swore at my wife. I do not think he ever swore in our presence in the more than 30 years since. So a range of messages coming in. Please do continue to get in touch, text, WhatsApp, and also social media at BBC Women's Hour. Now joining me now is entrepreneur and activist Kaval Ahmed, founder of Soul Sisters Pakistan, a community support group on Facebook. It was created 11 years ago for women to discuss topics that were often considered taboo in Pakistan society, such as sex and divorce. Well, earlier this month, Facebook disabled the group for 43 hours due to an intellectual property violation.

It gave Kaval's work global attention. In the past, the group has been accused by some of promoting divorce and wild behavior. Since the group's reinstatement, Kaval has announced that she's starting a new platform, which she can tell us about now. Good morning, Kaval. Hi, good morning. How are you? I'm very well. Welcome to Woman's Hour. So let's hear more about Soul Sisters Pakistan, because you've built this incredible network of women, over 300,000 members now. Absolutely. Soul Sisters Pakistan started off really small. It was just 5,000 women. And I got inspired because before that, in 2011, I was a makeup artist. I used to hear stories all the time of women telling me of the kind of issues they were facing, particularly around their marriages or around the kind of oppression they had to face, be it something as small as not being able to choose her own wedding dress

to larger things like forced marriages or not knowing enough about her body rights. And it occurred to me that why don't these women have a place to go? Why aren't their parents listening? Why don't they have someone to talk to at home? Why are they telling me their stories? And so I was inspired to start Soul Sisters Pakistan. It started off as a very tight knit, small group, but it very, even though we were just

5,000 women, everybody outside of the group was talking about it, be it at weddings, be it on dinner tables. Everybody was like, there is this secret network of women and they seem to be talking about things that we shouldn't talk about. They're airing their dirty laundry. They're talking about things women should never discuss. How can these women have the audacity to talk about divorce or, you know, leaving their husbands or getting married again or, you know, anything or everything that is, you know, looked down upon in certain parts of our society. So it had a very bold start. And over the last 10 years, we've just grown. We've been threatened. We've been defamed. We are regularly trolled.

And the most amazing thing is that even if outside the group we we are being talked about in a negative manner. When you're inside the group, you will only feel empowered because every woman is another woman's friend. And this is quite ironic, given that in South Asian culture, you grew up hearing that women are each other's enemies. So we've literally changed that around and shown that no, actually, we're all each other's friends. So changing the narrative there, you mentioned some of the issues that the women are coming to you with body rights, choosing a wedding dress, even what else are they telling you over the last 11 years? So we've, you know, we've literally heard it all, be it sexual harassment at work, be it financial rights, be it inheritance

rights. In Pakistan, there is a lot of issues surrounding inheritance rights of women. So a lot of women get deprived of their fair share of inheritance because it's taken away from them. And again, this is something that's shoved under the rug because the patriarchy obviously doesn't want women to ever know that they have the right to inheritance as well. So brothers often or brothers or uncles often take it away and they leave the woman with nothing. Similarly, if a woman is undergoing emotional or physical abuse, she is told by her elders to stay quiet, be patient. Things will get better. He'll calm down as you grow older or go pop you know a couple of kids out and

he's going to get busy he's going to start loving you again if a woman complains of infidelity she's told oh you must not be trying hard enough it must be the fact that you've gained weight or that you don't look pretty when he comes home or the fact that you have children now so you're not dressing up enough for him so it's always the woman who's blamed in several situations. And because this platform gave women the validation that, no, it's not you who's the problem. You are somebody who's living under subjugation or oppression or the fact that you do have equal rights is what really angers a lot of people. So this safe space is providing, I suppose, a valuable resource in terms of support.

And it's great that women are able to vent in your group. Does it lead to change behavior? Does it lead to different outcomes for these women that they wouldn't have had previously? 110%. And I would say that even my own behavior has changed over the last 10 years. There are so many things that I have unlearned over time.

And I'll give you a really brief example. About four years ago, when I launched my show Conversations with Kaval, there was a woman who came up to me at one of our networking events. And she said, I just want to have a word with you. And I said, sure. And she told me that she posted on Soul Sisters Pakistan that she was about to leave a marriage where she had borne emotional abuse. She was pregnant. So she was very scared of being a single mother, particularly from a conservative family.

And she said that when I went on the group, I literally had no idea whether I should keep the baby, whether I should leave the marriage and whether or not I would be able to provide for myself and my child in this world. And when she posted on the group, hundreds of women reached out to her. Someone gave her a job. Someone, you know, multiple single mothers said that, you know, if we did it, you can too. We're here to listen to you, to be there for you every single day. Anyway, fast forward two months later, she got a divorce. She moved out. She took that job. And now four years later, she's doing two jobs. She's extremely happy. She drives a scooter around Karachi, which is not a very women driving a scooter friendly place. And her daughter sits in the back seat of that

scooter. And she tells her mother that I'm so proud of the fact that people smile at us when we're out on the roads. Her name is Zainab. We've even covered her story on the show. And she's just one of the many women who've literally seen their lives change simply through the access of a good female network. Wow. So it's actually leading to tangible change. So how do women sign up for this? You mentioned earlier that it's like a secret group, a secret network. How do you find women or do they find you? So the group on Facebook is very much searchable, although there's like tons of fake ones now too. So it's like copycat groups yes copycat groups and then some are led by men because they want to use them to you know

trap women lure them in etc but but ours pretty much will stand out because you'll be able to see who the admin is which is going to be me um you'll be able to distinguish it from the cover photo um and then as you also mentioned in your introduction, we are shifting out to our own platform called HeySoli. Although HeySoli is still being built, I think the best thing, the best asset I would say I have right now is that everyone or anybody who's starting a product looks for the people who would use it. I have the community already. And I and these people are my advisors. They're my sounding boards. They're my cheerleaders and my supporters. So we're

kind of going to build this together. And I don't know whether this is going to fail or if it's going to succeed. But I do know that this is worth everyone trying and, you know, putting their best foot forward and kind of, I don't know, like working together to make some magic happen. And what do you hope it becomes? How do you hope to help even further? I want it to be a hybrid of content and community, as well as digital upskilling. So I do always want it to be a place where women find other women, but also be a place of learning and sharing skills. So that is something of a hybrid that we're looking to create right now. You've done some incredible work, and it's clearly making a difference to many women's lives. Kavil Ahmed, thank you so much.

Founder of Soul Sisters Pakistan. I do here have a statement from the parent company of Facebook, Meta, about taking down the group, which was down for 43 hours. A Meta company spokesperson said, we notified the group admins of the status of the page, which related to repeated violations of our IP policies. The enforcement was not related to other posts made by the group. Now, your messages still come in about what's been a very big talking point this morning and it regards whether smacking should be made illegal in England and Northern Ireland.

A report that's come out this morning by Child Doctors says it should be and should fall in line with Scotland and Wales. You have many opinions on this as our listeners. Let me get to a few of the messages. One here saying I'm 84 and realise I was more emotionally crippled by never being hugged by my mother than by the smacks from her. That's from Maureen. Another message here. We want to raise children to be kind, helpful and have good relationships when grown up. How can we possibly teach them this by modelling aggression and power misuse by hitting them?

It teaches them that they can solve their problems with their fists. To raise children, we need to model the qualities we wish to see in them. I was hit a small amount as a child and I do not hit my three children aged nine, six and one. I solve our problems with firm loving boundaries and logical consequence. There is support out there for people who wish to parent differently to how they were

raised. I'm so glad my generation are parenting differently. That's from Rose. Thank you for all your messages. Some people have left their names but but if you want to remain anonymous, you can. We're on text, we're on WhatsApp and we're also on social media. Now, my next guest is a writer and podcaster. Her name is Caroline Crampton. She describes herself as a hypochondriac and has explored the very condition in her new book, A Body Made of Glass, A History of Hypochondria. Hypochondria is an outdated term, but is often described as the unwarranted and pervasive fear

that one has a serious illness, often accompanied by a lack of diagnosable symptoms. Well, today, medical experts use the term health anxiety. Caroline was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma when she was 17 and five years later she was given the all clear but her fear of the disease coming back left her with almost constant health anxiety. Caroline joins me now. Welcome to the program Caroline. Thank you very much for having me. Right so firstly should we get into the term hypochondria and how it's actually defined? You've done a lot of research on this. perceived, that isn't being picked up on tests, that isn't being diagnosed formally. And yet you are experiencing the symptoms of that illness. And along with that, and with that difference

between what's being told, you're being told that is real and what's not real. That's where the anxiety really, really amplifies. At least that's been my personal experience. And those of all the hypochondriacs that I've spoken to while I've been working on this. I see. So tell us about your personal experience then, because you go into quite some detail in the book, but what was your own experience of this? Well, for me, it started with that cancer diagnosis when I was 17. And then when I, very lucky to get the all clear five years later, I still had that, I think, quite understandable for a lot of people who'd been in that situation, that anxiety

that it would return. So constant awareness of how your body feels at all times. Is this a lump? Is that a lump? Should I go to the doctor? Should I not? That's just a constant presence in your mind is all you're thinking about. That then, that behaviour for me then transformed into something else. It ceased to be just about the cancer and it could be about any kind of illness really, all kinds of symptoms. I had a long period where I was really worried that my hair was falling out too much and that that could be evidence of hormonal imbalances and tumours elsewhere or some other condition. It ceased to be about the cancer at all but that is where it started for me.

There is, I suppose, a counter argument that we are often encouraged to check our bodies quite regularly. And if there is any slight indication that something is wrong, go to a doctor, get it checked out, right? Absolutely. And this is where I have enormous empathy for all of the medical professionals who are trying to deal with this, because I think it's an impossible situation. Because on the one hand, yes, we are encouraged to be hypervigilant. I absolutely had that as a former cancer patient myself. You know, checkups, doctors telling me, if you feel anything that's wrong, definitely come in. We always want to check check it out we always want to know that you're concerned great care wonderful but that also then facilitated this constant anxiety and the fact that I was always thinking about it and always so aware of what was going on in my body which then became destructive patterns so I'm not sure that I know what the

perfect balance is there I don't know that anyone. I think we're all just trying to navigate our individual anxiety as best we can. There's definitely a hard balance to try and strike there. It can be difficult to know which side of the line you actually fall on. But from your research and from your writing the book, how do you understand how the difference between when men are called hypochondriacs, if at all, and when women are called hypochondriacs? There is a huge difference. Studies show that hypochondria health anxiety is way more common in women than in men. There's no settled understanding as to why that is,

but there are a few different theories, ranging from the idea that women's brains don't process serotonin as quickly as men's do, or that women have evolved to be more sensitive to the hormones that govern stress responses because of evolutionary reasons. We don't absolutely know, but it is definitely the case that it occurs more in women than in men. It's also the case that women are treated differently by healthcare providers. And this is where I think it gets very difficult to determine what is hypochondria and what is women's justified anxiety and frustration that they're not being taken seriously about their health. I think the two are inextricably linked and overlap. much data about how for instance one study I found that women who went to A&E with severe stomach pain had to wait almost a third longer than men who presented with exactly the same symptoms women have to make twice as many visits to the doctor as men to be referred to a specialist for

some types of cancer some another study showed that female patients are diagnosed with cancer far later than male counterparts going through the same process. So I think all of that and many more examples besides all feed into this anxiety and this process and this difficulty around health for women. And then I think we also have this long history of women being belittled for their emotions and their fears. And you get into things like hysteria, women's feelings being dismissed as just being hysterical, feeds into how women with health anxiety get treated. So why is it do you feel that healthcare professionals treat male and female patients

differently when it comes to pain? I think you've had personal experience of this, how when you went for an operation, your pain management was treated very differently to a man's. Yeah, so the example that I write about in the book for myself was when I had to have an egg extraction before I had chemotherapy, which is a bizarre thing to have when you're 17 and you're very far away from considering whether you want to have a family but it was considered necessary because of what the chemotherapy was going to do to my fertility and in the moment I didn't really question this but there was no pain management discussed for this process very little anesthesia and then I remember them saying to me afterwards you know if you feel any discomfort just take a paracetamol, which looking back on it

now feels absolutely bizarre. Fast forward many years later, and I've seen how even quite minor operations like, you know, getting a wart removed or getting a toenail removed, come with these elaborate preparations and sort of pain techniques and so on, when it's a man getting the operation, it seems to be just something inherent about perceptions of seriousness and understanding of who to believe that seems to govern who gets what in these situations. Is that because the patient is a man or the healthcare professional is a man? I think it's, I mean, I think both have influence, but in the examples I've seen, it seems to have more influence when it's the patient, that it's the patient's expression of pain. And the same, I mean, there's lots of data about it, especially from the US on racial lines as well, how black and other non-white people, their pain is underestimated compared even within the same gender.

Yeah, there was the Brendan Health gender health, gender health gap report, sorry, of 10,000 women in the UK where 60% of women said that they believe their health issues are not taken seriously. In your experience, have you ever had to feel like you've almost had to overemphasise your symptoms to be believed? I think, yes, you have to be very firm and advocate for yourself and be very clear. And I think especially when you're going through multiple appointments with different specialists, different doctors, different people, and you have to retell the same story over and over again, you can get quite used to it.

It can start to feel quite just standard to you. And yes, I definitely have to think about it hard and say, well, this person's hearing it for the first time. I need to make it feel fresh and important and vital to them so that they will understand what I'm trying to say and take some action. But in your book, which I think is very interesting, you talk about you had genuine health concerns and obviously had that cancer diagnosis,

but that existed alongside you having what you call hypochondria. But actually, you know, I think it's an interesting mix between people there thinking, some people thinking your symptoms that you're explaining are completely unwarranted when actually you had a genuine health anxiety because of what you'd been through previously. Absolutely. And I think that's what makes all of this quite blurry, complicated, difficult to navigate. But I think you, at least using my own example, you can see the difference. I had a cancer of the lymphatic system that presents with

tumors in the lymph nodes and a very well-known, well-documented set of symptoms. When I am having anxiety that the bones in my rib cage feel weird or that I can't feel the underside of my big toes. I think it's fairly easy to say that is anxiety separate to the cancer because those are not symptoms that are anything to do with the original disease. But I do think this is all a spectrum and it's difficult to find exactly perhaps where you sit on it because the theoretical idea of the hypochondriac is someone who is absolutely terrified that they are sick with no actual cause for that concern. But I think that person doesn't really exist in real life. Everyone has a reason to be worried, whether it is a serious pre-existing condition or something like an

environmental factor or a family history. We're more and more invited to pay attention to that kind of thing when we're thinking about our health, even genetic profiles that are now available. I think we can always find a reason why we're right to be afraid. And I suppose in terms of finding your own symptoms and trying to self-diagnose, the internet can be an incredibly scary place. I suppose that that's probably not one of the ways you would encourage people to look up their symptoms. But for you personally now, how are you dealing with things? How are you? I am better than I have been for a long time. I'm not sure I would recommend this to everyone, but actually spending five years writing a book about this has been very helpful for me. Just really having to

get into these subjects, be very honest with yourself, write it down. These are all tools that are used as part of therapy and I've certainly found them to be very helpful. I write in the book about the various different kinds of therapy that are recommended that you can try and that I've tried and I've definitely had good outcomes with them. So I would reassure people listening that there are things you can do. That's really good to hear. It's been a pleasure to speak to you. Caroline Crampton, thank you so much. Author of the new book, A Body Made of Glass, A History of Hypochondria. It's been a pleasure to have your company. Thank you for all your messages coming in on Smacking.

We'll have much more on Woman's Hour tomorrow at 10. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4. I just remember shouting and screaming, get off my sister. Life as we know it can change in an instant. I was just punching frantically. I wasn't going to let it take away my sister if I could help it. A single transformative moment. I heard this engine sort of go past and I was like what is that and mum had looked up into the rear view

mirror and she went oh my god he's here. I'm Dr Sian Williams and this is the programme that explores the most dramatic, personal and poignant stories from the very people who've experienced them. I always pass it there and say, Hi John! Hi John! You've got to find some joy in the sorrow, you know. You've got to find some joy. Subscribe to Life Changing on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.