Woman's Hour - Critical care nurses' mental health; Allotments; Women of the Miners’ Strike; Mother and son referees

Episode Date: November 10, 2020

Covid 19 has been difficult for everyone but one group that’s been at the front line of fighting the pandemic is critical care nurses. There are reports of record sickness levels partly due to stress and mental health issues at the same time as new plans for how people are nursed in intensive care are introduced. Anita Rani talks to Nicki Credland who chairs the British Association of Critical Care Nurses. A new study reveals women with allotment plots now outnumber men for the first time. A recent study by Dr Tilly Collins and Ellen Fletcher of Imperial College London, found that in London almost two thirds of plots – 64% - are now occupied by women. The National Allotment Society estimates that half of holders nationally are now women - compared to just two percent in 1973. Dr Tilly Collins and allotment holders Irene O’Malley and Sonia Hyman, join Anita to discuss their appeal and why traditional allotments have become a very different kind of space where women want to relax and be self-sufficient.Anne Scargill and Betty Cook met at the beginning of the miners' strike in 1984. Betty was a proud miner's daughter, wife and mother, who was determined to support her family and community. Anne happened to be married to Arthur Scargill, the president of the National Union of Miners. She too was steeped in the history of coalfield culture. Together they helped to create the Women Against Pit Closures movement. They have just published a book called Anne and Betty: United by the Struggle. Betty joins Anita to talk about her memories of that time and the impact it had on women’s lives, with Ian Clayton who helped gather the material for the book.Patsy Andrews has been a football referee for the last 16 years, one of 2146 women across all levels of the game, compared to 29,244 men at the end of the 2019/20 season. Her son, Akil Howson, has followed in his mum's footsteps and is now officiating in the English Football League Championship. They join Anita to discuss the inspiration for their continued involvement in football.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Sarah Crawley

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast for Tuesday the 10th of November with me, Anita Rani. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. We have a packed show for you today. Now, how many of you do the same job as your mum? I'll be talking to a mother and son, both in the same profession and both smashing stereotypes. They're football referees, so if you've ever fancied doing it as a career, keep listening. Now, have you ever dreamt of the good life? An allotment to grow your own produce, maybe an organic leek or a bunch of coriander, and while away the hours in your own serene patch

of green? Well, lots of women do and the numbers have shot up. So why are men losing their plots to women? I'll be finding out. A new book is coming out that looks at the life of two leading women during the miners' strike, Anne Scargill and Betty Cook, who started the Women Against Pit Closure movement. They supported their husbands, kept their own and other families going, and opened up their own worlds in the process. So I'm really looking forward to speaking with Betty Cook a little bit later. And if you are that way inclined, you can follow us on social media, Twitter and Instagram. And our hashtag is at BBC Woman's Hour.

But first, COVID-19 has been difficult for everyone. But one group who've been on the front line of fighting the pandemic are critical care nurses. There are reports of record sickness levels partly due to stress and mental health issues. I can talk now to Nikki Credland who chairs the British Association of Critical Care Nurses. Good morning Nikki, welcome to the programme. It must be incredibly stressful working in intensive care with Covid patients so how have your staff been telling you about what's going on? Just how bad is it? Yeah, it is. Absolutely. And I think it's worth just, first of all, explaining that our staff that work in critical care units are usually very resilient staff.

We're used to dealing with sadly patients that die, very complicated patients, a very complicated physiology and using very technical machinery, etc. So, you know, the fact that they are feeling this so significantly and are really struggling with the psychological trauma that is now associated with caring for these patients during the first surge is a really significant situation for our staff at the moment. How's it been affecting them? So we've had, we've got a lot of staff off sick across the NHS, not just in terms of critical care nurses,

but partly due to the fact that our staff are getting COVID themselves, just like every other member of the population, partly because they're self-isolating, because members of their family or their friendship group have got COVID, but equally because of the psychological and physical pressures that are brought on by looking after very very complex patients in high volumes who sadly um who sadly die. But just what's the impact on their mental health just how serious is it getting just how concerned are you Nikki? I'm very very concerned

I've spoken to numerous staff up and down the country and further afield this isn't just isolated to the to great britain this is a you know an international global problem and i've spoken to staff who are receiving post-traumatic stress counselling who have been sectioned under their mental health acts who are needing significant time off sick um who which you, this is affecting not only their ability to be able to work and to be able to do the job that they chose to train to do, but it's also affecting their home life, their relationships with their families, their friends, et cetera.

Goodness me, sectioned. Yes, you know, it's a really significant problem. And until anybody actually walks into an intensive care unit and actually understands the role of an intensive care nurse it's very difficult to explain that to to anybody else you know like i said these are very technically difficult patients to look after there's a lot of machinery a lot a lot of equipment which is needs an expert skill to be able to manage and we also have to think about the impact that not having families on our intensive care units have on our staff. You know, intensive care units build a real relationship, a real rapport with those families.

And that's a two-way relationship. And we give families strength and equally, you know, families give us strength to be able to look after the people that they have entrusted to us to look to care for. It's a really difficult situation. Yeah, because as you said, you know, critical care nurses, they are used to working with very unwell people. They're used to dealing with distressed families and they're also used to, sadly, because it's part of the job, the death of patients.

So people might be wondering why it's so different now. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a number of things that are different now. And I've already touched on the element associated particularly with the patients and the lack of relationship, the ability to form relationships with the families. But we also have to remember that we simply don these patients on a one ICU nurse to one patient basis because of the complexity of these patients is simply not possible because we simply do not have the staff so what we've had to do is have to we've had to change the way that we work so we've maybe got one ICU nurse with a nurse or an operating department practitioner or another health

professional who doesn't traditionally work in a critical care environment being redeployed into intensive care to support that now that again just adds another layer of stress to that intensive care nurse because now not only they're responsible for their own practice but they're overseeing someone else when this environment isn't something that is they're not used to. It's a very different environment for them. We asked NHS England about critical care nurses and capacity, and they said that the NHS has 13,000 more full-time equivalent nurses than they did last year, and that record numbers have signed up to start nursing degrees this autumn.

Do you think we'll be seeing more people coming into the profession after this pandemic inspired by nurses and what they're seeing now and how long will it take before realistically we can see more trained up nurses in ICU? So if we think about if we just take those questions separately so if we think about intensive care in order to become a registered nurse you need to go to university for three years so it's three-year degree program half of that time is spent in clinical practice and half of that time is spent doing academic study at the end of that three years if you choose to specialize in intensive care you then need to work in intensive care and get hands-on bedside education to be able to manage patients and you

also need to do academic study alongside that so it takes another year to 18 months until you become a competent, qualified intensive care nurse. So we're talking about between four and four and a half years to produce a competent intensive care nurse. That's how significant this is. So it's going to take a little while. I mean, how do your findings and the figures compare to this time last year? Because this is an intense job at the best of times, isn't it? So are we seeing a significant increase set of numbers without any background to it um you know we talk about this figure of 13 000 and that's really interesting we know that if we look on the nursing and midwifery council um website we know how many nurses are registered to work but that doesn't mean that all of those nurses are either working or working in the NHS. So that 13,000 figure is questionable at best. NHS England are putting forward an extra £15 million

specifically for mental health support. How far will this go, Nicky? It's absolutely welcome and it's something that we absolutely 100% need. We have got to find a way of protecting our staff. We are asking them to go above and beyond what we would expect of anybody under normal circumstances. This is unprecedented. We are in a position that we could never have imagined happening

even two, three years ago. We really need to look after them. There's no point thinking about getting more nurses into the profession if when they're in the profession, they leave. So we've got to think about retention of staff as well. And how can we make sure that we look after the staff

that are looking after the patients so that they want to stay in nursing, they want to stay in intensive care? Because what I'm hearing is that a lot of them at the moment are so demoralised by what we're putting them through that they're thinking about changing profession completely. And that is really sad and an absolute loss to the NHS.

The Derby Royal, I was reading, have taken matters into their own hands and created something called a wobble room for all their staff. It's like a timeout place, a place with uplifting and supporting messages for the staff who might just need to, you know, maybe even just go and have a cry during the day. Yeah, absolutely. And that's really important. And that's certainly popping up in various pockets across the UK. It's not a national initiative. So it is about individual trusts taking the responsibility for the care and welfare of the staff themselves. And that's really important and absolutely welcomed. And we really do need to remember that, you know, we have got to look after our staff. We've got to be kind to each other.

We've got to realise that this is a really, really stressful situation. And quite rightly, some of our nursing staff and doctors and operating department practitioners and all of the other health professionals are going to find this really stressful. And they may just need to take a step away for 10 minutes. And like you say, have a cry, get themselves together and then go back to work again. So we've really got to support these staff during this time.

OK, Nikki, thank you very much. That's Nikki Credlin there, the chair of the British Association of Critical Care Nurses. Now, a new study reveals women with allotment plots outnumber men for the first time. A recent study by Imperial College found that in London, almost two thirds of plots, 64% are now occupied by women. The National Allotment Society estimates that half of holders nationally in our women compared to just 2% in 1973. They are no longer just the preserve of men as they once were, including my granddad who loved his allotment.

So let's talk now to Dr Tilly Collins from Imperial and also allotment holders Irene O'Malley in Loughborough and Sonia Hyman in Birmingham. Morning to you all. Morning. Tilly, your research, tell us about this data that you found. It's a very different picture than what you expected. What did it show?

It was a different picture, Anita. I, in common with many people, had the expectation that this was a largely male preserve. But the interest that we had and that Ellen really had in this project was to look at what's happening to the urban green space and how is it changing and her vehicle was to look at allotment spaces she was fabulously thorough and managed to to get data from almost 400 of the 700 ish sites in London who's Ellen sorry Tilly tell us about Ellen Fletcher was the student who worked on this. Fantastic. She's an excellent, excellent student. And I can't commend her highly enough because she did a really thorough and detailed job on this, ferreting out data and pushing people to get answers to questions, which was really, really thorough.

So we have a lot of really accurate data that gives a good baseline for last summer so since then we've had covid and the demand for a lot more plots has just rocketed last summer we expected we calculated it was about 30 000 people waiting for a lot more plots in london now it is much much higher and one of the things that's happened is that to kind of buffer that demand is that they're splitting plots in half. So instead of having a plot which is one chain, and they're measured in these wonderful archaic measures of chains, and the chain is about 20 metres long, you now find that they're being either split in half or even into quarter. Right, so make space because so many people want them.

But what do you put the increase of women having plots down to? What's changed? I think that the allotments originally were very, very much about food provision, but also about a space where men could go and be and have some space outside the family. And they were very much a working class environment. It was largely working class men who grew food for their families. And at a chain of size, you can provide for a family. They are now places that are more valued for the

relaxation and the mental health benefits. People rank recreation above food production. And at a smaller plot size, you don't provide fully food for a family. You may get a lot of courgettes in the summer, but you're not getting food for a whole family. It's much more a demonstration kind of space and a relaxation kind of space with the added satisfaction of producing some food. I'm going to bring Sonia in here because Sonia you're one of the few women who did have an allotment plot 50 years ago why did you first get an allotment Sonia? Well the first I got an allotment because my father, when I was young, gave me a small little plot and I thought, oh, I'm going to do that. And I sort of work away from the end of it.

I enjoyed it. So when I come to England, second down, go to college, uni, get married, and my husband got a plot, you know, and I enjoyed it so much. You know, it was amazing, you know, to know you can grow your own and see the joy on your face to see what you've grown. That's why I got a plot. And the enjoyment of it, the relaxation as well, you know, it was really lovely.

And your first allotment that your dad got you, that was in Jamaica, was it, when you were little? And so what did you grow when you got your allotment in there in birmingham well grow all sorts sweet corns cabbage carrots you know loads of liquor things that grows in england because many of the things that grows in jamaica does not grow here. So we try to grow, to adapt to the climate here because many of the things does not grow in this country that grows in Jamaica. So we adapt to what grows in this country. Absolutely, you've got to do that.

And were you rare as a woman in the allotments? Did you notice that there were mainly men? I was, well, at the time, it was about when we got our plot, it was about two or three women on the plot. And it was very strange because the men used to pass and comment when I was digging and I was planting, you know.

They said, oh, you shouldn't be on the plot, you should be at home looking after your husband and your children, you know what I mean? They let you feel sort of dominant but that didn't put me off because my first love was gardening so it did not put me off, I just continued

doing it. Good Sonia I'm pleased to hear that, I'm going to bring Irene in No men walking past you now, Irene, are they, telling you you should be at home looking after the kids? Good morning, Anita, and thank you for having me on your programme. No men telling me to go home.

My kids have all grown up. However, I do bring my grandchildren to the allotment with me and they enjoy it very much. Now, you must just be so delighted because you've had yours for a year. The waiting lists for allotments are years long. I think I struck lucky really, I gave up work in 2019 by choice and I was pondering of what I could do with my time so I decided I'd apply for

allotments thinking I would wait six months or a year and within six weeks I was allocated half a plot and I was like oh my god what do I do now I didn't expect this so quickly it just happened to be there at the time and when I saw the allotment first visit it was just an overgrown jungle full of brambles and it had been left for about a year. However, I thought, no, don't be dispirited by this. And I started to cultivate it. And each little patch I cultivated was inspiring. And you just plod through it and eventually you get there. And what's the appeal?

The appeal is you grow your own food and you see the food through from your plot to your plate at home within weeks sometimes and it's just wonderful and there's no carbon footprint because I cycled to the allotment those days and I tried to garden organic there and I also compost everything for it. And have you found a community? Oh the community is brilliant because when you first go everybody knows you're new obviously so they're all willing to give you advice share ideas knowledge uh even produce the first year i came home today

laid them down with produce because i wasn't growing anything i was just cultivating plot so people were really generous because everybody has a glut. So they just share what they have. I mean, I need to get my name on a list. Tilly, how long are these waiting lists in councils? Will I ever get an allotment in my lifetime? Well, if you're in London, you will get an allotment, but you may have retired by then.

About 20% of the councils have closed their list because the demand is so high. It's so inspiring that people are using the green space in this way, in this active way, because it brings so many health benefits. I think the councils are forgiven for splitting the plots because it does increase the numbers of people who can access this. Who is accessing them? What are the demographics? As you said, when my granddad had one, it definitely was growing coriander and fenugreek, if anyone's interested, because you couldn't get them in Britain in the 60s. Is it still working class people who are getting the allotments now? How have the politics changed? Well, certainly in London, and I can only really talk about London, I don't know about the rest of the country. But in London, the plot politics are quite competitive. And it's largely

middle class women who are getting the plots. It's largely middle class women who are on the waiting list. They're established in the community. They have the time to wait. Their children are leaving home. And they're patient about it. Whereas the men are, I think, less patient about getting on the waiting list and more mobile. So they're getting fewer and fewer of the plots that are given out. And I think that whilst it's really, really wonderful that women are getting lots of plots,

we have to keep an eye on the equality of these places. We also know that in London there's 90% white. There's only about 10% of people from the ethnic minorities who have plots. And that we need to to encourage and we need to try and and make these places accessible and representative of the society that's around them and to do that we may have to address some of the competitive politics about getting up the lists and onto the plots uh sonia what advice would you give to someone who's just got, or maybe is just thinking about getting an allotment?

Well, you know, as I say, you get a small plot to start off with, and then, you know, you work your way up from there, take it a bit of time, and it's for them to know, once you get there and you've done it,

it's absolutely marvellous marvelous they'll enjoy it you know so i advise anybody who's thinking of taking on a plot to take a small plot go from there do it bit by bit don't overdo it because it is hard work but once you've done it you're amazed of what you can achieve and And it's brilliant. I'm totally inspired by all of you. Irene, Tilly, Sonia, thank you very much. And I bet they were absolutely delightfully happy to have their allotments during lockdown. Now still to come in today's Woman's Hour, the mother and son who are both working as football referees.

Last week, we talked about how to boost your confidence if you're at rock bottom, whether that's returning to work after having a baby, having responsibilities as a carer or after a relationship breakdown. Frances Monaghan is from Wise Women, which runs confidence courses in Glasgow. She told us how negativity and positivity can be infectious. One of the exercises that we do is look at

where does low self-esteem come from? And for that exercise, one of the things we use is called an iceberg exercise. So we're looking at the influences in women's lives because the bottom line is you're not born with low self-esteem or low self-confidence. It's something that's created and it's created through many, many influences

from your family, teachers, school, religious leaders, the social media, you name it. Everything you have seen and heard and experienced in your entire life will shape how you feel about yourself. And if some of that's negative, then we are addressing that because what tends to happen with women, we find in the work that we do is that women will always blame themselves for low self-esteem women will always say i come just being stupid or i come just a bit useless and a bit pathetic and they're that kind of self-critical voice that they hear that's something that's been learned so we focus on breaking that down and looking at the blame and the shame and the guilt culture and trying to replace that with something else. But you get people to say something about themselves, don't you?

Yes, yes. That's one of your favourite ones. Basically where that came from was I was doing a session on working with women with complex needs for staff. And we try to get the staff to do exercises that we do in the courses and so I started off by saying just out of the blue tell me something about yourself and I pointed to someone and the first thing everybody does is go so I write that up anything anything anything you like say anything you like so there was a woman in the room who said, she started and she says, well, I've got a fat backside and my roots need done. And everybody kind of laughed and I wrote that up

and they were wondering why I did that. So then the next person said something negative and the next person said something negative. And you could tell there was somebody in the back of the room who was itching to say something positive. And she said, I'm going to learn how to play the guitar and everybody in the room went oh so the energy immediately changed and the part the point of that was that negativity is quite infectious and but so is positivity so it's replacing the

negative with the positive. I love that I have been saying I want to learn to play the piano for the last 11 years. One day I'll do it. That was Frances Monaghan uplifting us and talking to Chloe Tilly there. Now, our article giving tips on how to build confidence is up on our website. And don't forget, if you miss the live programme, you can catch up by downloading the BBC Sounds app. Search for Woman's Hour and you'll find all of our episodes. Click on an episode to listen right away or download for later. You can also subscribe to Woman's Hour so you never miss a programme and of course you can follow us on social media at BBC Woman's Hour. Now Anne Scargill and

Betty Cook met at the beginning of the miners strike in 1984. Betty was a proud miners daughter, wife and mother who was determined to support her family and community and happened to be married to arthur scargill the president of the miners union she too was steeped in the history of coalfield culture together they helped to create the women against pit closures movements they've just published a book called ann and betty united in the struggle and betty joins me from barnsley along with ianton, who helped gather the material for the book. Welcome to the programme, both of you. Very good morning. Good morning.

Betty, you were the daughter of a miner and married to one too. Tell us a bit about the community you lived in. What was your life like before the miners' strike? Well, I lived in a very small, isolated community. Most of the men worked at the pit there, and it was a close-knit community but it was one that you were judged on how you presented your children how well they were dressed what you bought from the butchers or the grocers and how white your washing was on the line. So I never felt that I was me.

I just felt that I was classed as somebody's wife or somebody's mother. And then you met Anne, didn't you? Tell me how you first met Anne Scargill. I first met Anne when I went to the first meeting that I was aware of, of Women Against Pit Closures, the Barnsley Women against pit closures meeting i had been in the community or trying to organize a soup kitchen and someone gave me a telephone number to ring if you ring this number there'll be a meeting on the sunday and you'll be able to

go there so i went along to the meeting and that's when I met Anne for the very first time. And you said, you know, you were judged by how white your washing was and, you know, you never felt like yourself. What gave you the confidence and the courage and the want to go out and, you know, be involved in this? OK. During 1972 and 74 strikes, my husband was a flying picket. I was left at home with the children and we were often cold and I determined that I wasn't going to sit and cry. I was going to get up and I was going to get involved.

So I moved from full-time work to part-time work that would give me more time to work in the community. I mean, Ian, it's such a powerful and inspiring story that the women who were involved in this Women Against Pit Closures movement, you helped Anne and Betty write the book. Anne isn't well enough to join us today, but she's given you permission to speak on her behalf.

So tell us a bit about Anne. How did she first meet Arthur Scargill? Arthur Scargill came and knocked on her dad and mum's back door one day to talk to her dad. And Anne was coming home from her own work for a lunch and she asked him who he was and he said I'm Arthur Scargill so that's that's how they met and that was that but I mean Anne's given me as you say Anne's given me permission to talk to you about this and I think

one of the things that Anne always says is that a book is is forever and writing one's like being an eyewitness to your own life. And I think that's why they wanted to get this story down in words. And it's a bit difficult for working-class women sometimes to get, well, working-class people in general, to get the words out into books. I was thinking this morning, you know, Vita Sackville-West who talked about how you compel the growth of pattern with a patient shuttle and i she came from a very different social background to ann and betty

but but their story is just as colorful and intricate a tapestry it's about how people craft their own life stories and you know of course ann Anne and Betty have got wonderful yarns to spin as well. And that's why I wanted to get involved, if that answers your question. Yeah. And Anne was arrested, wasn't she? I mean, it really did change their lives completely being involved in this movement. It did. It did. I think it's... And again, that's another reason why it's important for them to get it down in their book, because they're both getting older. Anne said that to me. She said, I'm getting older now. And when I think back and try to make sense of my life, I want my grandkids and then perhaps my great grandkids to know what their granny did during the strike and how brave they were because it wasn't easy to stand up for yourself

as Alan Betty did. A lot of stories were being told that weren't particularly true and they wanted to have their three pennies. Absolutely, own their stories. Well, we've got a clip of Anne. She was arrested and this is her talking to Jenny Murray in November 2013 about her experience. Actually, it was the first picket that I ever went on.

We organised pickets to go into Nottinghamshire. Actually, it was at Silver Hill Pate. And there were only 12 of us in this minibus. And we went to this pate and there were only about six police there and then we were coming away from the picket and a police van drove up and we learned a lot from this because the policemen got out and put their chin straps on their helmets and then they came to us and they started pushing us about anyway Anyway, one or two girls resisted them and then they arrested them.

So I went up to the inspector and said to him, excuse me, officer, I said, I don't want to be rude, I said, but what, you arrested them for what have they done? He says, get her and all. So I got arrested for asking what somebody had done to get arrested. Anyway, they took us to the police station and they put us in a dock compound and then they fetched us out one by one and this policewoman took me in this cell, small cell. She said to me, name, and I wouldn't tell her my name. I I said I'll tell you what they call me when

you tell me what I've done wrong I says what you're doing this for she says we're looking for offensive weapons and drugs I says offensive weapons and drugs I've never been in a police station in my life she says she says come on get und Well, I took my clothes off. And then I got dressed again, and she wouldn't give me my shoes back. I said, I'm not walking about in here. I says, do you know, I'm old enough to be your mother. And I can hear in your voice that it still upsets you, that intimate search. What impact does it have on you?

Terrible. When I see a policeman, or even now, when I see a policeman in uniform, it really, really upsets me. Really powerful clip that. Betty, I mean, this whole movement, being involved in it, it completely changed your lives, doesn't it? And you went on marches, and you went on the picket lines

and you also saw terrible violence, didn't you? Oh, yes, absolutely. The police didn't make any difference whether you were a man or a woman. They often would attack you and push you up and down. And it was a horrible time. I'd always looked at the police as caring people, people that were there to help and I just couldn't believe that I could see such a change in attitude

and how horrible they were. And it changed your life, didn't it, Betty, the miners' strike? It ended in March 1985. Did it give you confidence to do other things? It certainly did. I suddenly realised there was a wide world out there and I just didn't always necessarily need to be a wife or a mother. And I realised during the strike, seeking it in different places, that maybe I should get some education after the strike finished. So in 1987, I went to Northern College for two years.

The aim was, once I'd finished the course in college, to go back and work in the community. But I got dragged into the system, and I went to Sheffield University and did a degree and it was quite amazing because my parents ambition for me was always to achieve what they called the cap and gown and they were desperately disappointed when I came out of education as a 16-year-old. But it was a lovely, wonderful day for my mum. I'd lost my dad by then, but mum came to the graduation ceremony and her face was just a picture. If it hadn't been for the Linus try,

I would have never have done that. I would have never achieved the independence what I did and I suddenly became me I was a person and I came me oh Betty it's such a an amazing thing to hear I'm so proud of you for doing that as well Ian Betty's not alone is she in this regard the speed of change for women's lives was so fast around this time, wasn't it? Anne tells a lovely story, you know, Anita, about the day the strike ended. And, of course, all the people who'd been on strike and stuck it out through all that horrible year

marched back with a lot of pride behind their banners and flying their banners. And a bloke came up to Anne and said, I'm glad that it's over for another thing. At least I'm going to get my wife back now. And Anne says, well, either might, lad. And he said, but I don't want to back how she is now. I want to back how she was.

And Anne turned around to him and winked at him and said, that's not going to happen, cock. I love it. Because there was so much change. Absolutely. So rapidly. I mean, we could carry on. I really could talk to both of you all day.

But we haven't got time. But Ian and Betty, thank you so much for joining me. And if you do want to know more, as I do, the book is Anne and Betty United by Struggle. So go and track it down. Now, Patsy Andrews has been a football referee for the last 16 years, one of only 2,146 women across all levels of the game. Her son, Akhil Housen, has followed in his mum's footsteps and is now officiating in the English Football League Championship. Welcome to the programme, both of you. Patsy, what made you want to give it a go and try your hand at football refereeing 16 years ago um what forced me into doing it was one saturday afternoon i'd taken my son to well i went to

collect my son to miss football training and the manager at the time said to all the parents in front of the children does anyone want to be a football referee um they've got free courses so i said at that time i said it as a joke because i just thought okay humor let me put my hands up and said i'll volunteer to do it i was told in front of everybody i wasn't talking to you patsy i was talking to the dad at that time and the way things were at that time um it was kind of everyone thought that was the norm however the way I've raised my children I've raised my children to actually aspire to anything they want to aspire to and so two days later I phoned up the FA and decided I'm not going to allow that message to get across to my children

and I booked myself on a refereeing course and there you go there I am. Wow that's incredible Akhil what a mum you've got. Tell me how you got into refereeing because your mum had a big part to play in that didn't she? Yeah she forced me um she forced me to do it I was um I was training one day and I just got into a car and she basically said we're on our way to referee course I've booked you on it and I said no I'm not and obviously I couldn't drive I couldn't really have a say I was only 14 years of age yeah she dragged me along to referee course and sort of put me on it and it's it's the best decision ever because now it's my career. Yes, and you're doing very well at it.

But Patsy, you've literally pushed him out the car to say, go on, you're doing the course. Forced your son to do it. Yeah, it sounds really bad, doesn't it? No, Akil was struggling with playing games and every mum, every parent out there knows when your young person is not getting the games they want to get because of an injury they're sick coming home upset they're coming home crying and what are we going to do about it and um i started refereeing and i realized you know what actually there's a lot more from refereeing it's a part of football and if a kid loves it that much you know what if you can't play it why

can't you go and officiate on it because there's a lot more he can get from that rather than coming home every Saturday and Sunday upset I mean this is this is the question I mean it's brilliant so I say another brilliantly inspiring story to hear um and this is a question for both of you but I'll start with you Patsy you know about 16 years ago you took yourself off to go and become a ref for football matches. How many women were doing it back then? How many black women were doing it? And still? You know what? Black women, there was none that I knew of. And so I had no one to look up to, to learn from, apart from my son.

In terms of women, we were trying to remember yesterday, and I think there were probably two women in Leicestershire that I knew of were referees. And that was my main reason. When I took my kids, my son played, my daughter played football. There were no people that reflected black women. There was no women that refereed their games. And so, no, it was a very isolating role at that time. But I'm really pleased to see that there's a lot more coming up.

And there's some really positive ones coming up. But, no, at the time, I had to find my support from other males because there was no other female referees at the time. And did you get the support? I've got a very small group of very good referees, including Akil. My nephew was a referee and I've met some over the years, some really interesting referees who have always been there for me. So, yeah, I got it from the avenues I needed to get it from to get me through. And I'm not going to sit here and say at all it was easy because people in my community laughed at me at those times.

People who weren't even from my community laughed at me. The pressure that was put on me on the pitch from everybody wasn't easy at all but you know what out of the negatives came a positive and the positive it gave me so much confidence Akil will tell you my Saturdays and Sundays when we're not in lockdown is on the football pitch because for me it's given me so many skills in terms of people skills and relationships so although i didn't get the support i needed at the time from the other black people black women i got the support from people who were in the game already yeah and now people value what i've done because what i've done is reflected a positive role model for people in my community absolutely perhaps you're

a pioneer i mean ak, Akhil, how does your experience reflect what your mum's saying? Because, of course, there aren't that many black men either who are refereeing at the moment. No, it's strange when you're looking back. I never really had a role model looking up to it and I never really thought that I'd get to the level that I'm at.

I literally just took the course and I had no intentions of ever being a referee as well. It was just unthought of. It was a thing that you just didn't do and then sort of just going through the ranks and you start to realize that you sort of won a few you you want to you want a few you're a bit of you're a minority you put a bit of pressure on yourself but it's good pressure because hopefully you can then pave a way for the next generation. And you are paving the way. You're doing very well.

Are you hoping, where's the next step for you? What's your ambition? Premier League, Akhil? Yeah, that's the ambition. So yeah, I've just got to work hard and try and get to the Premier League. And Patsy, what's the best bit of the job? Actually, both of you, very quickly, what's it like when your mum's made a decision, Akhil,

that you disagree with? Oof. Honestly, I don't know. As a referee watching, it's hard. As a son watching, it's funny because you get to see that your mum's not perfect.

And the best bit of the job, Patsy? Listen, going out there and reflecting positive images for my community is all I'm about. So if I retire tomorrow, anyone who's listening, mums we can do it, black women we can do it, our children are in it, so therefore we need to be in it and understand it because it's so beautiful. When my son phones me from the game, mum are you watching my game? And he asks me was that the right decision? That's because he knows I'm involved

in that world of his. And at the end of the day, that for me is the positivity of it. That was Patsy Andrews and Akhil Housen. We've had a great response to today's show. On critical care nurses, which was our first item, Alison has been in touch to say, I retired eight years ago

after 42 years of full-time nursing. I gave my heart and soul to nursing and loved the job but constantly under enormous stress due to insufficient staff levels when oh when she says will there be proper care for nurses throughout their careers and she goes on to say my heartfelt thanks today and always to all nurses and carers in hospitals communities and care homes and I also extend my heartfelt thanks to everybody on the front line within the NHS at the moment. And then we chatted about women and allotments. Lots of you got in touch about this item. Lorraine said, I live in Sheffield

and have had five allotment plots since 1987. Five, Lorraine. She says lockdown has enabled me to spend more time than ever on my allotment, making 2020 the year I had my best tended plot. November is a very busy month for me, she says. I have become self-sufficient in compost and liquid comfort feed. Sounds technical. There's also a history of allotment holding in our family. My grandfather tended a plot in South Wales during the years of depression and unemployment, as did mine, Lorraine. My granddad loved his. I think he loved growing things and getting away from the family in equal measure. Rachel says,

My allotment has been my sanity saver. Social distance, exercise, great advice and plant sharing with other allotment holders and a great view of the sea and countryside. Couldn't recommend it more. Oh, well, if you can get a view of the sea, absolutely. Sue says, my husband passed away last year. We'd been married for 52 years. I took on his allotment plots and I cannot describe the warm reception I was given by the community. I got the plot knocked into shape and never a day went by without an offering being placed on my shed

in the way of seeds, plants or produce. This sounds lovely. Pot holders mended my bike and sharpened my tools. They helped me with heavy jobs, even to the point of moving my shed. A year on, I look back over this difficult time and I know I couldn't have survived without my allotment neighbours who've now become friends. I know I can always find solace there. And Sophie says, I'm a woman allotment here. I'm surrounded by men and potatoes. I love them, but happy to hear there are others like me around. So many, Sophie, so many, and the numbers are growing. And then we talked to a wonderfully inspiring Betty and Ian

about the new book about women during the miners' strike. And Mark says, I met Betty and Anne when I had just started at Manchester University as a mature student. They attended the student union meeting as the SU were hoping to donate the majority of their annual grant to support the strike. I was a union man and had a chat with them after the meeting and we had a bit of a laugh.

They were brilliant. I'm sure they were. Now, tomorrow, I'll be talking to the writer Kate Mascarenhas about her passions for dolls and dolls' houses and her fantastic new book. Also, how can faith inspire climate change activism and what are the major world religions doing to combat the climate crisis?

We'll be discussing that. And I'll be talking to a woman who has Down syndrome and a woman who has a son with the condition to hear how they're going to the high court to try to change the law that allows pregnancies where Down syndrome is detected to be terminated up to birth. Join me then. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like Snell.