Woman's Hour - Cryptic pregnancy, actor Karen Pittman, writer Nikita Gill, Agnes Wanjiru

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

To so many women the symptoms of pregnancy are instant, intense and unmistakeable; however some make it the full nine months without having any idea they’re even pregnant. This phenomenon is known as cryptic pregnancy, and the British Medical Journal suggests it’s more common than triplets. Nuala McGovern is joined by two women who have experienced this first-hand, plus Professor of Midwifery, Helen Cheyne to discuss.Actor Karen Pittman earned an Emmy nomination for her performance as The Morning Show’s hardworking producer Mia Jordan, alongside co-stars including Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston. As the newsroom drama returns to Apple TV+ for a fourth season, Karen joins Nuala to discuss the show’s themes, from truth and deepfakes, to women in the workplace. Karen also featured in the Netflix adaptation of Judy Blume’s teen romance Forever and is known to fans of Sex and the City spin off, And Just Like That, as Dr Nya Wallace.Poet Nikita Gill tells Nuala about her latest book Hekate the Witch. She is the Greek goddess of magics, the crossroads, keys and necromancy. Nikita retells Hekate's story, from being an orphaned child brought up in the Underworld to becoming a powerful goddess seeking revenge for her family.A Kenyan High Court has issued an arrest warrant for a British national, suspected of killing a 21-year-old Kenyan woman, Agnes Wanjiru, more than a decade ago. Agnes was found dead in 2012 in the grounds of a hotel near an army base, nearly three months after she had allegedly spent an evening socialising with British soldiers. Hannah Al-Othman, a journalist for the Guardian who originally broke the story at the Sunday Times, and the BBC's Akisa Wandera, senior East Africa journalist based in Nairobi speak to Nuala.

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Let's face it, life gets real. RBC is the bank that we Canadians turn to for advice. Because at the end of the day, that's what you deserve. A track record, not some trend. Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, we have the actor Karen Pittman with us today.

She's back on our screens as Mia, the producer in the Morning Show, although you might also be watching her in Forever, which is on Netflix. Well, the Morning Show has a majority female cast, and it also depicts a TV network ran by women. Is it a feminist utopia? This morning, I want to know your real-life stories of working in an all-female workplace.

Was it a feminist utopia? I want to know the good, the bad and the ugly. You can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0300-400-400-444.

Now, also, can you imagine not knowing you were pregnant until you started giving birth? It has happened to many women. It is called a cryptic pregnancy. We have two women who have experienced it. Do stay with us for their stories. Plus, we have Nikita Gill. She is known as an Instapoet with over 800,000 followers on Instagram. She's with us to discuss the goddess Hecate, the subject of her new novel

in verse. I know many of you love her. I'm looking forward to speaking to her this hour. But let me begin. Instead, with a Kenyan High Court that is issued an arrest warrant for a British national. Suspected of murdering a 21-year-old Kenyan woman, Agnes Wenjero, more than a decade ago. Agnes was found dead in March 2012, in the grounds of a hotel near an army base, nearly three months after she had allegedly spent an evening socialising with British soldiers. The rest warrant was issued yesterday in Nairobi, where the High Court judge said prosecutors had provided sufficient evidence to request that the suspect appear before a Kenyan court for trial. Hannah Al-Othman, a journalist for The Guardian, who originally broke the story at the Sunday Times, has spoken to Women's Hour over the years about this story, and joins me now again along with the BBC's Akiza Wanderah, who's a senior East Africa journalist based in the city of Nairobi. Welcome to you both. Thank you for joining us this morning. Let me begin with you, Hannah. Some will be very familiar with the story. Others will not. What can you tell us about the killing of Agnes Wangiru, which happened in 2012? So Agnes Wangiru was a young mother, 21-year-old hairdresser who lived in Nanyuki, a town in the east of Kenya. And she basically disappeared after a night out with. friends and her body was found two months later. Her friends, her family spent weeks searching for her and then her body was found and there have been a series of investigations but this is the first time that any of them have got to this

stage. This is the first time that an arrest warrant has been issued in the 13 years since Agnes disappeared. And Bani will be asking, why has it taken so long to get to this point? What is it in your view? I mean, in my view, I think part of it was that this case wasn't prioritised. Agnes was a poor woman. And I think really it just wasn't a priority for her.

investigators for a long time. I think after the investigation, which was almost four years to the day, I think that we published the first story on that at the Sunday Times. I think that increased pressure within Kenya and also worldwide. And I think that that was part of the reason why investigators started looking again at this case. And then obviously there are logistical difficulties that don't make it so simple. Some of the witnesses, as was mentioned in court in Kenya yesterday, are based in the UK. Detectives from Kenya had to fly over to question people. So it wasn't straightforward as a police investigation where the suspects, the witnesses, the families are all in the same place. So I think there are several reasons and those are two of them.

Let us turn over to Kenya and to Nairobi and to my colleague Akisa. What has the reaction been to this story? it's been massive a lot of people here in Kenya when the story broke yesterday that a judge had issued an arrest weren't to the suspect a lot of people received it very positively because a call for a justice for the family of agnes wangelo has been there for a long time now i mean we are talking about a case that has gone on for more than a decade but there was also a lot of skepticism because you found people who said that, well, now this really depends on the UK's cooperation and how Kenya and the UK will come together and handle this. And when I spoke to the lawyer of the family right after this ruling, he said that, yes, they welcomed this as a positive move, but they were urging for some openness and transparency. And the niece of Agnes Wenjur also spoke to me and said that described this as a bitter sweet warrant because she said,

that then this means that this could be yet another opportunity to drag the case because of the extradition proceedings that are meant to begin. So, of course, the reaction has been massive and a lot of people are still continuing to call for justice, but also brings at the centre relations between the UK and Kenyan people asking that, well, this is a time that the country really needs the UK to cooperate if this family is ever going to get justice from the country. decade-long chase that has been there. Well, let me come back to Hannah because this arrest warrant,

also as Akisa is underlining there, has come from a high court judge in Kenya seeking the suspect's extradition. What will be the legal process? There are sort of two separate legal processes here. So the first is the, so Kenya has jurisdiction in this case. Any criminal trial will need to happen in Kenya. But before that can happen, There will need to be extradition proceedings in the UK.

So that will have to happen in court here. The suspect will have the opportunity to contest that. And that process will have to be followed first. And then there is a date in the 21st of October. is a mention hearing in court in Kenya. But I suspect any future trial should the extradition be agreed will be some months and weeks in the future. So this is, I also spoke to Esther yesterday, Agnes Wondjuri's niece,

and the family have been campaigning for a long time for some kind of movement in this case, and they do see it as a big step forward. But I think, you know, we have to be clear this arrest warrant there are two whole judicial processes that have to play out here and this is just the very first step. And I see you are not in your head there, Akisa as well. But bringing it back to Agnes and also to her family,

you mentioned that Agnes had a daughter when she was killed. So this is a girl who is obviously grown up without her mother, but with this campaign continuing trying to get justice for Agnes. Well, and this is one of the reasons why this has been a very prominent case because you were not just talking about a young woman who was killed. You're talking about her living behind an infant then, who was about five months old. She should be about 13 years now, a full teenager. And the family has described her life as that of troubled in a sense that this is a child

that doesn't know the mother. She only knows the mother from stories that she's being told and seeing how on TV every time this case comes up. And Denise has described to the media several times that she has struggled mentally. This case has taken a toll on both not just, you know, those her caregivers, but herself as well, continuing to follow up on this case

and the mental toll that it's taking. and that's why they've been calling for compensation. So I think one of the reasons why this has been very, very prominent is because of the layers that a young woman was killed. She left behind an infant who has had to leave without the mother. And of course, what has been severely described as cover-up or laxity when it comes to investigating this particular case and even trying to close it because 13 years has really dragged on.

And that's one of the things I think a lot of people are agreeing on here. The BBC's Akisa Wondera, thank you very much. Also, Hannah Othman, joining us this morning to speak about the case of Agnes Wendira and an arrest warrant for a British national has been issued by the Kenyan High Court. The government did issue a statement saying our thoughts remain with the family of Agnes Wendiro and we remain absolutely committed to helping them secure justice. We understand that the Kenyan director of Public. prosecutions has determined that a British national should face trial in relation to the murder

of Ms. Wendero in 2012. This is subject to ongoing legal proceedings and we will not comment further at this stage. I want to turn to some of the messages you've been sending in this morning and we're talking about an all-female workplace. One listener message to say I've been a nurse for many years so I've worked in numerous women-only environments. I can assure you it is not a feminist utopia. Here's another. I worked in an all-female workplace and I was forced out by the clique.

Do we have positive stories? 84844-get-in-touch. Let me know how it was, the good, the bad and the ugly what it's like to work in an all-female workplace. Let me turn. Why am I talking about? Because it's something I want to talk about with my next guest, who is the actor Karen Pittman.

Fans of the Morning Show will be very familiar with producer Mia. Or maybe you watch and just like that, the Sex and the City spin-off. Dr. Nia Wallace, that was her character there. Or perhaps you've been watching the adaptation of Judy Bloom's book Forever,

which is on Netflix. She plays Dawn, the Mum, in that show. Well, the morning show returns for a fourth series. The women are all on top in the storylines in front of the camera as Karen's co-stars, Jennifer Aniston,

Reese Witherspoon. They're joined by Oscar winner, Marianne Cotillard. Reese and Jennifer, you might know, are also both executive producers on that show. Karen, she returns in the role of the very hardworking news producer, Mia. Here's a little of Mia trying to persuade Reese Witherspoon's character, that's the news anchor Bradley Jackson, to return to the team. All we're missing is a Southern girl who likes to say it straight and blow things up.

Well, that would be deja vu. You're not serious. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Chris is out in the field for two months. wrote to the Olympics thing. You want me to fill in on a morning show? You know the job, you know how it works, you've done it. It's an election year. There's so much to talk about, Bradley.

Right. With everything that's happening overseas, come on. What does Alex say? She's excited. She is? Yeah, to have you back? Yeah. Really?

We're all excited. Karen Pittman, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be. I'm glad to be here. The morning show, it's back with a bang. Yeah, it really is. It really is. Episode one was out right now.

Yeah, yeah. And I watched it. Oh, you tell me. Oh, yeah, it had me gripped from the get-go, and I won't give the spoilers. But let's just say, the morning show has never shied away from real-life issues. We had the Me Too movement in the first season. We had the pandemic, reflecting that. Now it's delving into where people are at with,

news and trust, for example, is this rich territory of what source do people turn to? And I was just wondering how those planning meetings were to try and how to approach it all in real time. Well, our showrunner, Charlotte Stout, she really keeps us moving forward all his characters and story and et cetera, et cetera. But I think for literally four seasons, we've been exploring what it is for women to be in television news media

in the United States and really around the world. And my character first season was, you know, in a workplace relationship with Mitch Kessler, who we know is not doing right of two women. And then the second, she was holding the company together through the pandemic. And in the third season, she's held the company together through a merger.

So now we're at this place where all the women have moved up, things are changing and Mia is looking to get to that mountain top head of news division she's linked up arms with the other women there Alex Levy Greta Lee's character Stella Bach and she's looking

to get that brass ring and we're going to see her scale that mountain in season four and see what it's really like to link up arms with women and explore what power looks like when the patriarchy gets left behind I know and it's a

great watch. But I was thinking while I was watching, President Trump, he's not too far from where we're sitting now and his return to the White House in January, of course, brought the US into a new political era. Mia in the morning show talks about the centre has shifted, talking about the political

and the news climate. How does your show reflect what's happening in the country? Because it's seven years you're on. I mean, that's such a pivotal time in the States. I think this interesting way we've chronicled what television news media has really shifted from and shifted to. So we're talking about, you know, season three billionaires and how money has come into the media and how companies have merged and legacy media has shifted as well.

We talk about in season four how the cult of personality is so important and how you get your information and our new character that Boyd-Holberg does and grow is the Joe Rogan guy, you know. we've got all of that working in it. I think what we've seen over the last seven years is how television news has changed in so many different ways. Who you get your news from is as important as the news that you're getting. And so we're talking a lot about that. But the morning show ultimately is a show meant to be compelling. It's meant to be entertaining.

It's meant to draw you in through the characters, the relationships that they have with each other. and our writer's room and our directors, our producers are so great about weaving those stories in and out and bringing the characters together to tell this really multifaceted story with these incredible actors that I get the chance to work with. Yeah, no, it's such a wonderful cast. I'm just remembering the beginning.

Spoiler alert, but not really spoiler alert of the big thing. Of season four? Yeah, that they've got all the screens that they're going to have the Olympics but that they're able to have their main presenter speak in 16. 16 different languages and that's the great because of AI and that's a great gift of also season one of Charlotte's what they do. They start us out with the Olympics, which for any network is a huge

get, but it also starts us out with this conversation of what is it meant for all of us to come together? What does it mean for all of us to find common ground and how do we do that when the ground is shifting underneath us? Did you have to spend any time in real newsrooms? Oh, yeah. Are you kidding me? Yeah. I'm just wondering, did you encounter some odious conniving personalities? What I encounter are big, huge egos. You know, there are a lot of big egos, and you have to. I feel like television news is a gladiator space in so many ways nowadays.

And so you learn how to navigate and shift around those. And Mia definitely has been on the journey of trying to manage all of the egos around her. And then at some point in season four, she finds her own. She finds her own ego and starts a flicks a little bit. Yeah, because it's not ego that I think of when I think of Mia. She's kind of the person. She's like the fixer, the safe pair of hands, the person who makes it happen. Yeah.

She is the one behind the scenes holding it together on behalf of everybody else. And that's a very difficult space to be in. I said this before, you know, there is something about having an African-American woman who stays in the room and has an invisible hand on the scale of equality. In many ways, you need that one person to. stick around. And that's been Mia for the last three seasons. But, you know, if you say that as an African-American woman, it also comes across to me. What a weight that is to carry. 100%. 182,000 percent. It's very hard, but it's a journey of so many women, especially in

corporation. Corporate America around the world globally, you have to stay in the room to make a difference. And what happens if you leave? That grass grows over all that work that other people have done and you've done. And, you know, that's very, very much the journey. I think you'll see Mia traverse that path in season four. And I think Charlotte and the writers do a great job of showing what it looks like and what it feels like. Gosh, what an image, the grass growing over, the work that people have done before. But as you talk about that in corporate America, we often think of like Wall Street.

But of course, the industry in Hollywood, TV, film, that's corporate America. Of course, yeah. And I was just thinking it is 10 years. since, you know, Oscar's so wide or Hollywood so white drew attention to the issue of racial discrimination or lack of representation in the industry. How would you describe it now? You know, I think there's been progress.

But I think it's slow progress, you know. I'm always careful about it, though. Because we live in a time where, you know, there's so much division. And as an artist and as an actor, My role in the world, I think, is to show people where we are all alike. Through the work that I do, at my highest, you know, I am allowing my audience to explore who we are in the exchange of the work that I do. You know, at times it may appear transactional, but it really isn't.

For me, it is my life's work. It is my life's purpose. If you look back on my body of work, everything, we've talked about a few of the shows. but even if you go back further, it really has been a activism, a political statement. My life's work is about how do we come together and share a space and what are the stories and the humanity that we share in the spaces that, in the stories that I tell and the spaces where you are and where we are. So, I mean, it's hard, but there has been progress and I think it's important for us to talk about common ground and where we are. and where we are all alike, where we share like-minded ideas, where we are together, not just separate.

Does it feel coming back to gender more altogether? Does it feel majority female when you're at work on the morning show? I mentioned, obviously, Bruce Witherspoon and Jennifer Alaston, and executive producers and those that are in front of the camera are majority female now? Yeah, it does. It's a kind of thought and care that women have when we are doing the work that we do. Certainly have felt it from Rees

and from Jen from Mimi Leader, our executive producer. I have sought out these environments. Also, I'm working on Forever over at Netflix. Oh, I mean, we have to talk about that in a moment. Mara Brock Keel has been centering women of color, black women for many, many years. But there is such a sense of compassion and heart.

I think it's part of Charlotte Stout, our showrunner on the morning. show, part of her energy that the men and the character, the male characters on our show have softened in many ways. You see them much more vulnerable than you see the men and other sort of ensemble television shows are very hard. I think we're exploring that heart space that, you know, women so naturally come to an emotional space.

And I think that's interesting vulnerability, fragility, in black women in television, as opposed to just being strong, do you know? That's part of the great benefit of being in a female workplace, a show being run by women. The gaze is different. How they look at the world is very different. I was just thinking also this morning, the morning show, of course, you're doing.

Just like that, people will be familiar from your work there as well. You were Dr. Naya Wallace in that for two seasons. In it, Naya decides she could be happy without children while her partner, Andre, still wanted them. Very moving storyline there. It eventually led to their. separation. Naya will speak to many women, as does Dawn, the character you play in forever, your mother to Justin. How was it, I wondered to see life from those different

perspectives, because some see a division, you talk about coming together, some see a division between mothers and non-mothers in society. Yeah, I mean, I think that in many ways what I was able to glean from these two characters is the different ways that we nurture, the different ways that we mother, the people around us. And I think Naya had a very welcoming, nurturing, warm character in the same way that Dawn Edwards does in forever, but nurturing children. I was one of those women that wanted to be a mother, needed children in my life to grow up as a human being in many ways. But I don't think every woman needs that. I don't think the character of Naya needed it. I'm not sure about Dawn.

I think maybe Don doesn't need it. She's a little anxious. But it's been interesting. I give a lot to my characters, but I also take from them. I did hear you say before that your children, that they raise you, that they do some of what your mother didn't get around to doing. Yeah, very much, very much. I've had that experience with so many people. I mean, I have a daughter and a son, in many ways, it's a weird experience to be.

You sort of now your son and your daughter kind of become your mom and your dad. Like it's a weird kind of experience, but it's really beautiful. I didn't expect to have the experience as a mother to be learning so much from my children. I had a mother who was like very much, you obey me, you do what I tell you to do. I didn't raise my children that way, and we have this really interesting and beautiful connection. They let me participate in their lives, and they very much participate. in mind. I heard also that the Obamas are big fans of forever. I know. Isn't that crazy? Isn't that wonderful? It's so wonderful. When I heard them talking about it, I was like, wow, this is a moment.

It's actually a milestone moment for me. I'm always surprised when people know who I am or they see my work. Really, I'm one of those actors, knows to the grindstone. I mean, I'm paying attention, but not all that much. But when former president of the United States and his, Presidency was so historical for me. I was really blown away. Because I think perhaps also with forever, so many people love it, but it is a representation of Black Parenthood that we don't always see on screen.

Yeah, and that was important to me. I mean, I've been offered roles to be a mom many times from many different creators, but it was Mara's character, her Dawn Edwards, that I say, yeah, no, I need to do that. That's the thing I need to do. Well, because I had a very specific experience of being a woman.

And I think the character of Dawn, this particular African-American mother, we have not yet seen on television. And we have seen black families through the filter of black men and from white men. Their gaze has been very specific in American television on what black families look like. But we've not ever seen it through the gaze of an African-American woman. And I just thought she's going to do it like nobody else. And I really must do it. I must, must do it. Your Instagram bio says 100% success rate at life.

It does. I love it. Yes. What does success mean to you? Man, I mean, success is my children calling me and saying, Mom, do you have some time to talk? I need to talk to you about something. Success means that glamour magazine cover.

I've always wanted to be on the cover of a magazine. but to do it with those women, those incredible women. Do you want to describe it? It's Jen and Reese, you know, on opposite sides of me and holding Nicole Bihari's hand and Marianne Cotillard sort of floating above us all as she does with her beauty and her grace. And it's just this powerful image of all of these women

coming together. Of course you want to be on the cover of a magazine, but there's no better articulation of my personal politic than that cover. Five very different women from very different backgrounds coming together. It was like a real moment for me. I mean, it was very emotional to see it because it is the most authentic representation of my career today. Well, why don't we leave it on that image?

So wonderful to have you in, Karen Pittman. Want to let people know they can see you in action on the morning show on Apple TV Plus right now, episode one of season four available from today you're going to have to wait for the others but you can gorge on just like that or forever as well.

Like the Obamas. Like the Obamas did. Thank you so much, Karen. Thank you. This is great. Female workplaces, let me see. I worked in one and it was like heaven after a previous job

in which I was talked over in meetings by men and had my ideas ignored when I voiced them. Then two minutes later, a man would bring them up in the whole room with agree with it. I found my female colleagues far more able to show their differences and their experiences in an all female workplace, all of which added to the diversity of ideas and made

our output stronger. I volunteer, says another, with a team of women and it's wonderful, such a friendly, supportive, inclusive and skilled bunch. No matter what my mood going in, I always leave happier. A lot of you getting in touch. Okay, we'll get some more of those messages coming in throughout the hour as well. But I do need to move on to. my next guest. It is the poet Nikita Gill. Nikita was born in Belfast, brought up in Delhi, finding fame on Instagram with over 800,000 followers. Aldermanica are an instapoet. That was a new word for me. And now with her latest book, it's Akate, the witch, she has turned her attention to the Greek goddess retelling her story in verse form in a novel. Welcome to the Woman's Hour

Studio. Hello, it's so lovely to be here. Thank you for having me. Now tell us about Akate. So Hekati is the goddess of the crossroads and necromancy and the keys and witchcraft. And in this book, she starts her life out as a refugee child of war. Her parents, the story basically is about the Olympians and the Titans. So the Titans are the old gods and the Olympians are the new. And they have a war for power. Of course. And the Titans, the old gods, are on the losing side.

and Hikati is a Titan child. So what happens to a Titan child who's on the losing side of an all-encompassing war? Necromancy. Explain necromancy. Necromancy is the power of bringing the dead back to life. It's quite a power.

It is quite a power, especially when the system of the gods works in such a way that the gods rely on human beings being afraid of death so that they pray. And then this goddess comes along and she has the power of bringing anyone back to life, really disrupts the patriarchal power of the gods. Now, you are going to read for us, and it's a novel, but it's in verse form.

Yes. Very beautiful. This is, well, I'll hand it over to you and you can read. Oh, thank you so much. So I'm going to read right from the beginning of the book. And this is Hikati telling her story. The day I was born, the universe was on fire. And the reason for this burning was a family.

at war with itself. They called it the titanamiki, the war between the old gods and the brand new, brother against brother, sisters torn apart, fathers fighting their children. And what place does an infant have among such bloodshed, such divine terror? They say on earth that Ica,

the god's golden blood, reigned from the sky. They say that forest, turn from emerald green to gilded with godblood. No one knows how to stop a war when you are immortal, which is why the universe burned and as far as the eye can see, there were only embers and ash.

It's very powerful. I mean, nobody knows how to stop a war at times when they're mortal either. So true. But she is a child of war, and you wanted to explore that, why? So I was born in Belfast during the Troubles, and I'm also Kashmiri, and my family has a very deep traumatic history with partition. So I have been a child who has learned what war is very, very early on in life, because that is my legacy in my family history.

So I was obviously a child who was being brought up amongst two irregular wars. And an irregular war is that there is no outward bloodshed and fighting, but there are things like curfews. bomb blasts and terrorism and all of these things exist and really destroy the stability of the place that they are in. I also come from two places where religious tensions were very high and there was this constant fear that something was going to happen and that kind of upbringing changes the way that you think about the world if you have it as a child and if that's your childhood, you develop a lot of compassion for children who have never experienced stability because I have this very strong moral belief that all children deserve a

childhood and all children deserve safety. With Akate, as I read about her, and she's a little lesser known, shall we say, than some of the other Greek gods, but that she's often associated with a darkness or shadow. And I was wondering why you go to her for a creative process, which I might imagine is a healing process in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. So I think Hikati is one of the goddesses that is less unknown because she doesn't fit into the patriarchal standard of what a goddess is supposed to be because they want

goddesses to be pretty even in power, right? And they don't want them to be too powerful because that would conflict with the notion of what a goddess. Whereas Hikati challenges all of that. She's a goddess of liminal spaces. She's a goddess of darkness. She's a child of the underworld. and she has this power that could essentially topple the hierarchy of the gods.

And that is why she isn't known as much. Because what place does a goddess like that have in the structure of what the gods have built? Now, the Olympians have an amazing PR machine, which works for them. They really do. I mean, Zeus's PR machine is out there. We all know Zeus. I mean, Sabrina Carpenter's new song has him in there, right? Like, I'm just saying.

So these other gods, these types. in gods, especially the gods of the underworld. They don't get enough screen time. So I was like, I really want Picatti to have some screen time. So we follow her from a young girl. Then she develops into a woman, discovers her powers.

There is a line in the book, and I quote, perhaps this is what womanhood was, the dangerous knowledge of who you are and what you could do with that power if pushed. Is that how you see womanhood? Absolutely. Absolutely.

I think women are incredibly powerful and a liberated woman is a very dangerous woman. A woman who doesn't care about anything except for her peace is probably the most dangerous kind of being that exists. And it's really funny because she exists in defiance then of like the entire structure of the world. And that's so much of what this book is about. It has that feminine rage in it, but it also has that feminine liberation. is like, liberate yourself from the shackles of everything around you. Do you try and do that?

Oh, every day. Is it difficult? Every day. So that's in what's been said or what's been done. But you have a power. I mean, if we think about the instipoed part of it, 800,000 followers, and I know you've kind of moved away from it a little bit

of I've understood correctly as well. Tell me a little bit about what that's like because people, I've read, have even, you know, tattooed some of the lines of your work, for example. Oh, gosh. Does it feel like a responsibility? Oh, yeah. I mean, imagine if I made a typo and they tattooed the typo, right?

Like I, the stress, the stress. Yeah, I literally, I spend a lot of time considering what my platform is for, what I would like to use it for, and how I, I think I have a responsibility of compassion to this world. And I think all people who have major, big platforms, have that responsibility to use it wisely. You have a lot of people listening to you. You have a lot of people listening to Women's Aar, right? And you want to highlight the stories that will change the world. And you want to change the world for the positive, not the negative.

And that's how I use my platform. Is there any particular lines do you think that people take from your work with tattoos? Do you know? Yes. So one of the most famous poems I've written is a poem called 93% Stardust. And the way I knew that I was a famous poet was because I found that poem like graffitied on a bathroom stall. You're kidding. That is like when you know as a poet that you have succeeded.

You've made it. That's it on a public toilet bathroom stall. Speaking of writing and scribbling where it's on a bathroom stall or elsewhere, I hear that you write certain parts of your work when you're thinking about it on the backs of napkins. that you scribble here, there and everywhere. Tell me a little bit about your creative process. So I'm very scattered, I think. And sometimes I know everyone would be like, oh, you must always carry a notebook with you.

But sometimes I don't have a notebook. But the thought is there. And I don't want to let it escape because it could be the seed of like an entire book or a story or a play. And I just don't want to let it get away from me. So I just scribble on anything I can grab. But I've become a lot more regimented in the last few years.

Oh, interesting. I was thinking you're doing the laundry, you're going through your jeans, playing. Oh, yeah, there's so, oh, 93% stardust. I do still find lots of scraps, like just everywhere, going, oh, my God, you've got to put that down somewhere instead of just leaving it on, like, the back of a receipt. But, yeah, I become more regimented. I do three pages of long hand, and then I dedicate an hour to each of the projects that I do, a solid hour every day.

And then I leave it at that hour. So explain that to me again. You begin with three pages in the morning long hand. If you've read The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. I have read some of it. I don't know what did I finish it, is my question, but continue. She's amazing, and I did the 12 weeks. I'm going to do it again, actually,

because I think there's something very nourishing about dedicating yourself to your craft that way, and she really pushes you for it. But she teaches you to get up in the morning, and the first thing you do is do three pages of longhand. And I like to think of it like as a brain dump. So it's like all of these scattered thoughts, all of these strange thoughts, just put them away somewhere so that you can start on your work.

And then I read some poetry and I sit and I let it digest and then I give a solid awe to each of my projects. And I usually have four or five on the go. Wow, I love that. When you read poetry, you read in your own or somebody else's?

So somebody else's. Usually I read somebody else's because to be a great writer, you need to be a great reader. Well, give us a couple of recommendations. Oh, my God. Yeah, you're sorry, you put yourself in it. That's incredible.

Like, the fact that you've asked me for that makes me so happy. I love talking about other people's work. So Kate Baer absolutely love her work. Trista Mateer, a brilliant, brilliant poet who also writes about Greek mythology. The Nussela Maris, who writes about small kindnesses is one of my favorite poems of the world. She writes a lot about compassion towards each other and, you know, how it roots back into our ancestors. And I think we all need that right now. I would say, obviously, the poet I was raised on, Michael Rosen, who's a delight.

there's so many poets out there like I think I'll stop there I think that's a really good list to have before I let you go Akate is a goddess of crossroads of thresholds

yeah do you ever find yourself at that point I'm just wondering did you appeal to you in that way all the time I think every single

major decision of my life I consider a crossroads and you know like Robert Frost said I took the bath less travelled by and that has made

all the difference that is one of my favourite lines, I have to say. It's been wonderful having you in, Nikita Gill. And of course, you will find her latest book, Hakate the Witch, as she turns her attention to the Greek goddess, telling her story in that beautiful verse that we got a little flavour off a little bit earlier. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you so much for having me. Let's go back to more females. I was a female engineer at an oil refinery. I spent a couple of years running a department in human resources. That was all female. It was a breath of fresh air. Here's another. As a

I obviously don't work in an exclusively female workplace. However, over 30 years at work, the best managers I've worked for have invariably been women. Female management seems to be less about ego and hierarchy and more about valuing team members and being part of the team. It makes for a much happier workplace. I'm a retired GP, says another, from Sheffield. And used to be a partner in an all-female GP practice.

It was great to be in an all-female team. Our patients seemed happy to be seen by a female GP. But for fairness, we used to offer a male GP. GP to visit from a neighbouring practice if requested. 844 if you'd like to get in touch as many if you are this morning. Thank you for all your messages. Now

for many women the symptoms of pregnancy are unmistakable. There's crushing fatigue, tender breasts, nausea, changes in appetite, the increasing baby bump no periods would be

another. But some women don't experience any of those symptoms. They're completely unaware they're pregnant, right up until the moment that they give birth. Now, this was the case for Helen Green. You might have seen this story. She was a woman from Bristol. She gave birth to a baby girl hours after arriving in Canada on a holiday in the hotel bathroom. She had stomach pains. She felt a sudden urge to push. Then her baby, Olivia, was born, weighing a healthy, eight pounds, three ounces. Now, this phenomenon is known as a cryptic pregnancy, and it is more common that you might expect. Here's a little of the figures.

Studies across Europe and America suggest about one in 2,500 pregnancies go unnoticed until delivery. So this translates to about 320 cases in the UK each year. The British Medical Journal reports it makes it a more common occurrence than triplets, and I'm now joined by two women who have first-hand. experience of this. Tijuana Muzfabri and also Maria Rogers have both had cryptic pregnancies.

You're both very welcome. And I have Professor Helen Cheen, who's Professor of Midwifery and Deputy Director of the Nursing Midwifery Research Unit at Sterling University. Welcome to you, Professor, as well. I think our listeners really will want to hear Tijuana's and Maria's

stories, of course. Maria, let me start with you. Explain what happened. So I was working as a manager full-time in Truro, M&S, down in Cornwall. I had my periods all the way along, so I just thought, oh, no, I've got another period coming. And the next thing I knew, my daughter was born. That's a very short version of what happened, which I appreciate it, was a very short pregnancy for you in many respects. But hang on, that day, you went to work, you came home? the Friday I was at work as absolutely normal

and I thought oh no I've got a really bad backache because I put it down to just working in the cafe but no that was beginnings of my labour so I was in labour for three days and then she appeared at midnight on the Sunday at home at home yes and your husband was there your partner he he works for the ambulance service yes he was there he had just come off his night shift so if she had come any sooner obviously I would have been at home on my own I mean, it's quite the story. I want to bring in, Tijuana, your story slightly different.

Tell me a little bit about how you discovered and welcome. You're in studio with me. Hi, so I literally did not know. I was pregnant. I woke up one morning. And I just felt like I was dying. Like my chest felt like it was caving in and I couldn't breathe and I called my mom. And I was like, Mom, like I don't know what's wrong with me.

But I just feel like I can't breathe. I feel like I'm dying. And then she said, okay, call an ambulance. I called an ambulance. Ambulance came and at the time I was living like a really crazy lifestyle partying. Yeah, you were young, right? I was drinking, going on holidays,

like living my absolute 20s to the fullest. And when I got into the hospital, they kind of like thought, okay, she might have kidney failure. So they were going to put me like in some big machine. But they were like, if you go into this machine and you're pregnant, it could have some effects to me or the baby. Like an MRI. Yeah, like that.

And I was like, okay, They was like, okay, we're going to have to run some tests. I did, at the time, I was on contraception. I had the implant in my arm. So the doctor asked me, do you think you're pregnant? And I was like, I can't be pregnant. Like, I'm on an implant. I have contraception.

And yeah, so they did some test. I did a pregnancy test. My pregnancy test came out negative. So it's like, oh, I'm not pregnant. I'm on contraception. I'm fine. Like, let's get into the machine. And there was a nurse that kept like saying, oh, I don't know.

like I just feel something funny about this because I kept telling her like my back is on fire like my back is just hurting and she's like I've seen this before like it's so common and she just basically like encouraged the doctor for me to have like a little tummy scan like a yeah like an ultrasound

yeah like an ultrasound so after a while her and the doctor going back and forth like you're wasting time like we just need to get this go in the machine to see what's wrong with her she finally convinces the doctor to do the tummy scan on my stomach and they just both froze and looked at me and I'm thinking oh my god like what's going on

am I dying like so I'm panicking and they're just looking at each other and they're like okay someone are don't panic but you're pregnant and I'm like what like I can't be pregnant first of all because I'm on contraception like because when I signed my contraception it said it's 99% effective so I'm thinking what like what's 1% do you know what I mean so I'm like I can't be pregnant. Like, there's no way I'm pregnant. I'm on contraception. And it's not like the oral ones where I could have, like, missed a day or something. It's literally in my arm. And they're like, okay, well, that's not what the problem is. You have a fully grown baby inside your stomach. Give or take, you could, you, we don't know. Like, you could give birth in like four weeks. We

don't know. Like, your baby is very, very big. And I just thought they were lying to me. And then they showed me the screen when I tell you like I wanted to just pass out like I was just like what is going on so because when they first told me I was pregnant in my mind I was thinking okay like I'm going to get like an abortion I'm too young to be a mom I don't want to be a mom right now I'm too young and they were like it's too late for that like you have to carry out this pregnancy there's no time for an abortion it's basically illegal in the UK so yeah I just went through a whole stage of like denial. I didn't believe it. And I had to like call my mom and tell my mom I'm pregnant. Even though I didn't feel pregnant, they explained to me like what a cryptic pregnancy

is. Like, um, sometimes women don't feel the symptoms of pregnancies. And they told me it's a lot more common than you actually think like some of those figures I was saying. Yeah. And they were like, it's a lot more common than you actually think. I've heard of it. But when I heard of it, I just thought women were lying. Like I used to be like, how can you not know that you're pregnant for so long until it actually happened to me. And I told my mom and my mom's reaction was like, you're not pregnant. You're crazy. I had to like show her the scan, show her like all the paperwork, my discharge form from the hospital for her to actually start believing, okay, we need to prepare for a baby. Like, because you know, sometimes if they tell you you're giving birth in like

three months, sometimes babies come early. And my mom's like, you need to prepare that you're going to be a mom. And you, I actually was on, I can't remember with your TikTok, maybe last night, on Instagram. Like, I saw a picture, you did not look pregnant at all. Nothing. Like, and that was the hardest bit because it's like, take, thinking that you're pregnant and looking at your body and it's not pregnant, it's so hard to like build a connection with baby. And I'm going to come back to that. I'm going to bring in Professor Helen here for a moment. We're talking about it. It is rare. but maybe not as impossible as we sometimes think.

Yes, I think that's... Joanna just captures it exactly. It's more common than you think. I think there's a kind of natural belief that a woman cannot possibly not know she's pregnant. And yet these stories, these occurrences, are rare, but, you know, and sporadic. They are testimonies of very reliable women, and you have to accept it's a phenomenon.

What is happening, though? Like, why can't we see the baby? It's not known why this is. It's a phenomenon that's difficult. It's cryptic, yes. The baby is where the baby would normally be, of course. But for some reason, the symptoms of pregnancy aren't there. many of women will report that they had periods throughout their pregnancy

they didn't notice waking of course it's something that can only be studied retrospectively because it's not it doesn't you know so you can't really um you can't really follow somebody who's having a cryptic pregnancy but toina's story in particular is is i think very characteristic And so it's not known why this happens. And in previous times, women were not believed often and is a very dangerous situation for a woman. I mean, Maria's story, for example, of giving birth. Thankfully, her partner was there, but as she said,

she could have given birth alone. It's very dangerous for women and baby. Yes, and of course you wouldn't be expecting a baby to arrive. You might think a heavy period or something. something like that. Maria, how was it coming back to you to get your head around that you have a baby? What do you do? Call your boss and say you're on maternity leave now? Yeah, the phone call into work. My husband actually did. I really wanted to do it. But I was just, I think it was in so much shock once it got round to it. She was completely in

shock thinking, like, I only saw you on Friday. Why have you? This is ridiculous. Like, you've had a baby. I was like, I can assure you. Then I sent all the pictures round. and they were like they just couldn't believe it because working 40 hours a week and just not knowing at all. Was it hard to adjust? This was your first baby? My first baby, yeah.

And then we went into lockdown 10 days after she was born. So obviously my husband went off to work back in April and then I was at home alone. Just, yeah. So it was quite hard to adjust. But it was nice to have that bonding time, just me and Emily. But what I was thinking about that, I do remember reading that.

And I was thinking your partner going out, obviously, in COVID-stricken areas, he works for the ambulance service, and that the fear it must be within you baby as well coming back. That fear of COVID, such as, I mean, what a strange time for your head to go through as well as your body. It's crazy. He had a process. He had been allowed back in the house after he came home. He wasn't allowed in straight in. He had to go through the garage and whatever, so, yeah.

I want to come back to you, Tijuana. Like, you put across to us there, I think, how shy. this was and you did not want to become a mom. Yeah. You did become a mom. Obviously, you gave birth to your baby just a few weeks later. I think it was four weeks later. Yeah.

But how was that? It was traumatic. Like, it kind of felt like my body had failed me, you know? I'm so pro-women and like women's rights. I had no option to become a mom or not to become a mom. It was, you have to do this now. Like, you have to prepare. for the time that I was pregnant

I was in denial most of the time I thought about giving For those four weeks you've been Yeah pure like it just You know I started I couldn't process it But I started to feel the symptoms When I spoke to my midwife

She said it's kind of like when you cut yourself And you don't realize you've cut yourself When you cut yourself and you don't realize It doesn't hurt But when you now realize that you've cut yourself It starts to hurt So kind of like the placebo in a weird way It wasn't like

fully like I'm feeling everything but I'm like okay like my breasts are feeling funny now and like you know my tummy is still not pregnant it's bloated but I'm seeing a little bit you know um but yeah in terms of like adjusting it was just from the minute I gave birth traumatic it's very traumatic I just did not want to be there and then I thought about also putting my daughter up for adoption because I thought okay this is not fair that I'm taking this baby and I don't even want to be a mom. I don't even know how to be a mom. I'm in my early 20s.

Like, I was partying a week ago and now I'm, you know, here. But I didn't end up going through with the adoption scheme because there was no open adoption. So I couldn't, like, have a relationship with my daughter and kind of explained to her that, oh, you know, this is why I had to give you to a better family. And I decided to like, okay, I'm going to keep my daughter. But when I decided to keep my daughter, it was like I was hit with postpartum depression

straight away. I hated the whole experience of being a mum. I had thoughts of, like, harming myself and harming my daughter. It was so bad, like, there'd be points where my daughter was crying and I'd just be looking at her because I'm still in disbelief that I had a baby. I didn't know I was pregnant. I just hated everything.

My mom had to, like, now step in, take time off work and explain to her boss and say, look, my daughter's had a baby. She didn't know she was pregnant. He was kind of a bit like, what? Like, how does she not know she's pregnant? And my mom had to become my daughter's mom. Well, I'm glad you had your mom there. And if anybody has ever had thoughts of some of the issues that you're raising there are off harm,

I do want to say the BBC's action line there is there with links to help and support. But how are you now? Now I'm really good. Like, she's three in February. But it's now slowly starting to sink in. It does sometimes hit me when I wake up and I'm like, I have a baby. I have a baby. I'm someone's mom, but yeah, it's slowly starting to sink in.

But, you know, three years I can understand with something huge that happens, you know, whether it's a death or a birth, it will take time to adjust. I want to read this comment. At 78, I'm the result of a surprise pregnancy. My mum thought she had an early menopause as her periods had ended 18 months earlier. The doctor diagnosed a cyst, but shortly after I popped out at 8 pounds. I'm also wondering, just coming back to you, Helen, how can the pregnancy test be negative?

I was wondering this myself, so I could be giving you wrong information here, but I think that past a certain stage that pregnancy tests can become negative again. I think it's HCG level and the blood's probably higher in the early pregnancy. Now, some of your listeners may may tell me that's wrong

and I'm willing to admit it's not something I'm an expert in but I think that's probably the case and with this it's and of course any worries I should say do go to your GP which we always advise with any matters of health but is there

because some people say people are just denying it and that's why they don't believe that a pregnancy is there obviously we're hearing differently from Tijuana And Maria, I want to thank both of them for coming on the program today. It is just fascinating. Professor Helen Cheen, thank you very much for coming on as well. I also want to thank all my listeners who have been in touch so many about the all

female workplaces. Maybe we're going to have to talk about that another time again on Women's Erica, so much interest. But thanks to all of you for listening.