Woman's Hour - Cush Jumbo on playing Hamlet; Reaction to our equality poll; Day of the Scientist

Episode Date: October 12, 2021

Radio DJ Emma Wilson believes that the policeman Wayne Couzens who kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard exposed himself to her in an alleyway some 13 years ago. Emma reported it to the police at the time – no action was taken, but she has decided to speak out now because when she did report it she was not happy with the response.One of the key findings of our equality poll to mark our 75th anniversary has been the extent to which women don’t feel equal when it comes to issues of sexual abuse and exploitation. Almost 70% of the women we asked said it was a concern and the issue is currently front and centre of the news agenda following the murders of Sarah Everard and Sabina Nessa to name just two women. Emma Barnett talks to the writer Joan Smith and the former Victims Commissioner the Conservative Peer Baroness Newlove who is unimpressed by Boris Johnson’s unwillingness to recognise misogyny as a hate crime and is trying to change the law on the issue. Probably best known to most for her television role as lawyer Lucca Quinn in The Good Wife and then the follow-up series The Good Fight, Cush Jumbo is currently playing Hamlet at the Young Vic in London. Delayed for a year by the pandemic, the play sold out months before opening. As the first woman of colour to play the part in a major production on a British stage she joins a list that goes back to 1741 of UK female actors playing the Prince of Denmark. Cush joins Emma. On Radio 4's Day of the Scientist, we looks at women's trust in science. The latest Public Attitudes to Science survey found that women are less likely to feel connected to science in their everyday lives; less likely to actively engage with science; and were less trusting of scientists and media reporting of scientific issues. What's going on to put women's faith in science on such shaky ground? Emma speaks to Megan Halpern, assistant professor in the history, philosophy and sociology of science at Michigan State University, and Dr Emily Dawson from University College London, who researches how people learn about and engage with science – and why so many women are being put off. Image: Cush Jumbo in Hamlet at the Young Vic Credit: Helen Murray

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme and a big thank you to everyone who called me yesterday in response to our Woman's Hour 75th anniversary poll about equality. I couldn't get to lots of you in the end and it was that classic thing of so many of you getting in touch when you started to hear the conversation. And we only have an hour, but we try and make the best use of it with your help. So thank you again, and many messages and emails still to go through. And we're going to reflect on more of the findings of that poll a bit later on in the programme, mainly around women's safety and the perception of it

and violence in society, which brings me on to my first guest today, because the radio DJ Emma B has spoken out today because she believes 13 years ago she was flashed by Wayne Cousins, the police officer you now know the name of for murdering Sarah Everard. She was pushing her pram, I should say, Emma, at the time and reported it to the police not long afterwards, which she says in response to they laughed when she described the graphic bits and what he was doing

and they thought that part, which we'll get to, was particularly funny. I'll be talking to Emma next. But there's a separate story today you may have heard earlier with my colleagues on the Today programme about a woman who was mugged and when reporting it to the police, she alleges the police officer made a pass at her. Today, I want to hear your experiences, and I know this is one of the driving forces of Emma talking out today, good as well as bad, of reporting something that happened to you to the police, any kind of incident. And if you are

one of our female listeners, I know we have a lot of men who listen, but do you think you being a woman played a part in any of those responses? Were you taken more seriously, less seriously? What was that like? Because it's a situation we're discussing. One of the most senior police officers in the Met has been on the Today programme earlier. Again, I'll tell you about that in a bit more detail, but has admitted there is a crisis of confidence that women have in the police right now because of recent events and things that are going years back. Where are you with this? I also know lots of our listeners are either retired

or serving police officers, but there is a crisis of confidence for some. And what have your experiences been like of reporting any kind of incident to the police? 84844 is the number you need to text me on on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. Also on today's programme, the British actor Kush Jumbo, who made her name on the American TV show The Good Wife,

is fresh from playing Hamlet last night, the first woman of colour to play the part in the UK in a major production. I say fresh, I think she'll be emotionally wrung out. What a performance it was. I was very lucky to be in the audience last night.

So we'll talk about that and much more with Kosh coming up. And on Radio 4's Day of the Scientist, which you will have been hearing about if you've been listening already this morning and plenty more to come today. Just how much faith do women have in science and scientists?

There's some evidence around this. And also there's some information that's been coming out only this morning, which may or may not influence that. All of that to come on the programme. But first, let me turn to the Magic FM DJ Emma B, whose real name is Emma Wilson, who believes, as I say, that the policeman Wayne Cousins, who kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard, exposed himself to her in an alleyway some 13 years ago. Emma reported it to the police at the time. No action was taken, but she's decided to speak out now because when she did report it, she wasn't happy with the response. She's spoken out today in the Telegraph newspaper, and this is her first broadcast interview.

Emma, good morning. Morning, Emma. Thank you for talking to us today. What motivated your decision to speak out, first of all? I think it was a combination of it being a story. The reaction that the police gave to me when I was initially interviewed is a story that I've told for many years. It's a story that I've recounted to girlfriends many times. It's not something that I've never mentioned before.

I mentioned it at the time to my husband who was there. So it was that kind of, it was partly to recount that story publicly in the context of what's happened, his arrest and the following hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of reports that women have made about similar incidences. And also, you know, because I have a teenage daughter who's just left home and I want to be able to tell my daughter that when she goes out with her friends she can be her full self that she can wear what she wants that she should walk the streets with confidence and sass in the way that I want her to um and at the moment as a mother I don't feel like I can do that well you know, realistically, authentically and with credibility to say to her that you're safe. And because I am so very sure it was him, it adds to the clamour of chances there

were to stop this man. Let's come back to some of those other points about your daughter and reasons for wanting to talk out, because I'm very struck. For instance, we've already got a message from Bella who's listening, saying this is resonating with me. Around 15 years ago, my friend and I were flashed in London. And when we flagged down a police van to tell them, they all laughed at us. We were really distressed by it. They didn't even take our details or try to look for him. And that, again, also speaks to perhaps what we take seriously and what we don't take seriously as crimes and perhaps how that may or may not be changing. But Wayne Cousins, you believe, was the person you saw. When did you first put those two things together?

Because, of course, you know, very unfortunately, here's a name that we now know. And it's a face that we've become familiar looking at in light of what happened to Sarah? It was immediate that's what I've reported back to the Met and to the IOPC it was immediate and I said to my husband immediately I think that's him and I let it settle for a couple of days and I called a few girlfriends and you know said do you remember the time when when that happened in Greenwich yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and I said I think it's him so it was immediate and I kind of just you know you have to be obviously cautious and careful about saying things like this out loud but um it was it was very specific in the way that I was described I described him initially to the police when they first came around.

It's a face that doesn't go anywhere. You know, it stays with you. And it was only, and then after a week or two of me just Googling and seeing some more pictures and reassuring myself, I think there were more reports of previous behaviour that seemed to add to me needing to say something and report that back. And I know that this is now with the police again.

We've got a statement. The Met Police spokesman has said, with regards to the incident in 2008, police were called in November 2008 after a woman reported she was pushing a pram in Blackwall Lane SE10 when a man called out to her. She turned and found he'd exposed himself and was touching himself inappropriately. She went into a nearby shop. Police were alerted. A search of the area was conducted, but the man had left. CCTV inquiries were unsuccessful.

The incident was passed to the local Safer Neighbourhoods team for intelligence. And in terms of it being cousins, Wayne cousins, to the best of our knowledge, we are not aware of any reports prior to his March arrest when he was named as a suspect. Of course, if we receive any allegation, we will assess and investigate accordingly. But in terms of your strength of recognition of him, as you say, that was pretty instant.

How did that make you feel that that could have been the same person? So part of the interview that took place when the police came over to my house was when they thought it was really quite amusing when I was detailing, because of their questioning, detailing quite graphically what they needed to know. But I remember, and i've said this again time and time again i remember clearly saying to them i really hope that this is all he needs to do and i said that at the time because i was so like oh struck by how how feeble their response was i said then i really hope that this is all he needs to do and there's there's a there's a big part of me that really hopes it wasn't him because because if it was this is horrific

um that it could have gone on for so very very long and we already know that there have been they know there have been reported more reported um signs that he was a really dangerous person but this but that that incident, Emma, it was aggressive. It was aggressive and it was violent and it wasn't this sort of comic character that we have of this local peeping Tom or the local flasher in the flasher Mac that has been sort of a constant for many, many years.

It was aggressive, it was purposeful, it was calculated. And yeah. And it must have. It was calculated. And, yeah. And it must have, I can hear it now, but it must have left you shaken. It was. And I think, and I was with my child. I mean, I was with, I just dropped my toddler off at school and I was walking back in broad daylight with my child.

And I immediately thought I was in danger. And we shortly, we left the area shortly afterwards, because he, whoever it was, and I believe it was Wayne Cousins, whoever it was, knew my route. It was a route that I would have to take to school every day. And, you know, did he know who I was? I was looking everywhere, you know, did he know who I was? I was looking everywhere, you know, for weeks and weeks thinking, do I know him? Is he around? Is he local? So, yeah, it does. And just to, in terms of the police response,

were they laughing at a particular bit? I'm seeing a theme here of these sorts of incidents being put into the police, being reported, and laughter being part of the response. What was the bit that they were laughing at they um they they were asking me what i could see um and um there was there were specifics about his state um shall we say um he was he was you know he was he was playing with himself himself and there were specifics about his state of arousal that they thought were quite amusing. And yeah, it was really humiliating, actually. Do you have a different view now of reporting things to the police in light of that? I have, I mean, you know,

for those of us who are aware of data and statistics have waning confidence in structural effectiveness in terms of reporting. We all know about the data about rape cases, prosecution through to conviction that are appalling. I think it would be really interesting to see some similar data on these kinds of incidents as well to see what that picture is. I don't have a great deal of confidence in things like this,

seeing prosecution all the light of day. No, I don't. Do I want to tell my 18-year-old daughter if she feels in danger to call the police? Yes, I would always tell her that because that is her first case, her first port of call. And I think it will be a very, very sad day when as mothers we have to tell our daughters to not do that.

Is there anything else you wanted to add, Emma? I just want to add that for mums of daughters everywhere, I really hope that we are not just biding time until something happens to our daughters and that they will never have to deal with something like this and that if you have been a victim of something like this is to speak up and report it so that we can get a much bigger picture and keep putting the pressure on to have these things dealt with

in the way that they should be. Emma B, thank you very much for talking to us today. I will know Emma Wilson, but you will know, I'm sure, from her radio work as Emma B, talking about the fact that she believes that the person who flashed her was Wayne Cousins. And as I say, I read that Met Police statement to you with the latest on that. Many messages coming in.

Dee says, I reported a man who was standing outside my window and masturbating, looking at me. I could hear the officers laughing about it when they arrived at my home. It was dark, late. I was scared, but they treated it like a joke. AJ says, I've been to the police on three separate occasions. They've been nothing short of supportive, professional and consistent. Another one here from Kirsty. A few years ago, an incident occurred at

my daughter's school. I had to contact the police. The male officer that was attended was very reassuring at the time. I'm a single mum. At midnight the same night, I got a text from the officer asking how I felt and if I was OK. I responded thanking him, saying we were fine. He responded by telling me how fit I thought I looked in my shorts and how he fancied me. And did I want to come around for a drink? Did I want him to come around for a drink? I was so shocked I blocked his number. Maybe I should have reported him. That's from Kirsty.

Well, on the Today programme this morning, the Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Met Police Force, Baz Javid, has conceded there is a crisis when it comes to women's faith in the police. In one of the Met's first interviews since the sentencing of Wayne Cousins, it seems a lot of hope is being placed on the two reviews looking into the culture and standards of policing, one being commissioned by the Met, one by the government. One of the key findings of our Women's Hour poll

to mark our 75th anniversary has been the extent to which women do not feel equal when it comes to the issues of sexual abuse and exploitation. Almost 70% of the women we asked said it was a concern. But beyond reviews, what can be done? I'm joined now in the studio by Reuters journalist Joan Smith and the former Victims Commissioner, Conservative peer Baroness Newlove, also on the line. Welcome to you both. If I start with you, Baroness Newlove, good morning Good morning Emma I know that you are not impressed to say the least I understand this, you correct me if I'm wrong

by Boris Johnson's unwillingness to recognise misogyny as a hate crime because that's one of the suggestions that's been put forward I thought we'd start there first of all Why don't you agree with the Prime Minister on that and what are you trying to do? Well you're quite right, I don't agree with the Prime Minister on that and what are you trying to do? Well, you're quite right. I don't agree with the Prime Minister and as a Conservative peer, you know, that's a statement in itself in a sense. But it is, you know, at the end of the day, for me, for him to say as a man, considering we've just listened to the case of Sarah Edvard and the family statements, you know, and to say it's too much police work. I think it's absolutely,

I just think it's disgraceful of him to actually come out and say that comment because, you know, women are in fear. Women, there isn't equality for women in a lot of things. There's another debate in the House of Lords on equality of women in the House of Commons, as we already know. So, you know, for me, that was really disrespectful to the women and disrespectful to families who've lost a loved one just recently. Joan, you come at this from a slightly different point of view, because one of the other things that the prime minister said, and I don't know if you'd agree with this, is that we have the laws that we already need. We're just not doing a good enough job at implementing them. Yes, I very, very rarely agree with Boris Johnson on anything. But on this, I think he is right.

I mean, what we've heard this morning is descriptions of a number of criminal offences. Indecent exposure is against the law. Rape is against the law. The laws are there. They are not being implemented by the police. And that is the problem. And to introduce a hate crime of misogyny, you know, misogyny is hatred and fear of women. I know this, I wrote the book. And to actually define an offence is very, very difficult. And also,

it's happening at a time when the whole notion of what a woman is, is contested. So I know that people like the MP Stella Creasy, who are agitating for this, they want to include trans women, male-bodied trans women in the definition of people who can suffer misogyny. And I'm very clear about this, that misogyny is hatred and fear of natal women, women who are biologically female. And I think what this would do, I think it's well-meant, but it would be a gift to gender extremists who would attack those of us feminists who say that sex is immutable and that there are two sexes. So I think it would take us deeper into a conflict, which is a deflection

from a really, really important subject, which is what do we do about a police force and a criminal justice system, which is failing women comprehensively. So just so I'm clear, you're talking there about something else being attached to that and an issue being used in a different way and one of those rows or side effects. But just so I'm actually clear, you don't think we need it anyway, regardless of that. Why not? Because, you know, some people away from MPs, whether it's, I'm thinking of Sue Fish, former Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire Police, she's argued for it. And I'll come back to Baroness Newlove in just a moment. I think it's virtue signalling.

One of the things that Theresa May did as Home Secretary and Prime Minister was introduce a raft of legislation to protect women. For example, domestic violence protection orders. They are not being used. And I think what we would have is another law on the statute books which once again isn't used and would take us into this route of arguing over definitions what is a woman who is a woman who isn't a woman what is a hate crime i think we need practical things and what we need more than anything is actually the existing

laws against rape and sexual violence and domestic violence to be implemented and they're not at the moment baroness new love um Some of it I won't agree, I disagree with Joan, but I have to say this amendment that I'm actually putting in the Police and Crime Bill next week is purely to recognise the equality of women. I'm not getting into the gender, transgender. My amendment in the House of Lords is to actually look at hate crime and to recognise the social injustice to women. And by putting it in there, it does alert the police. I agree with Joan, we've got plenty of legislation that the police don't enact. But as the former Victims Commissioner, it saddened me to hear of so many women with

domestic abuse who were laughed at by the police. One lady informed me that she had been sexually abused, raped by her husband. And the police officer said, well, you're not on your own, love. You won't be the first one tonight and i just think for for what we've seen on nottinghamshire police north yorkshire police avon and somerset we have to have something in legislation for them to totally act the wider discussion is on transgender i'm not doing that i'm actually asking the government to recognize it but the most important thing and we're talking about the confidence within the criminal justice system as we've just heard with emma is actually it will have an aggravating factor on the sentencing

so it'll take the seriousness it'll take the understanding of how that woman felt and that is what's missing across the criminal justice system actually um you know and so for me this is an important probing amendment to the government to fully understand the many women that I have met and feel that they have no confidence. You know, I've met rape victims who have been questioned by professional police officers and still don't understand the needs of what that person wanted. I want to come to some of the other suggestions as well that have come up. But Joan, just on that, and I know you want to also say something, but is there nothing in what Baroness Newlove just said that may you think perhaps focus minds and bring more attention and better application of the other laws? No, because aggravated sentences are of no use if people are not being convicted in the first place. Men are not being convicted of rape. They're not even being charged with it. They're not being

charged with indecent exposure. And we can see the results of that. If we had a system where these people were going through and actually being dealt with and convicted, then yes, we could look at the sentencing. We're a long way off from that. And actually, what Baroness Newlove is describing is misogyny committed by the police. So the argument would then be that they have to report themselves. So what I'm saying is that we actually have to look at the entire culture of the police. So the argument would then be that they have to report themselves. So what I'm saying is that we actually have to look at the entire culture of the police. And that's why I want a public inquiry into institutional misogyny in the police along the lines of the McPherson inquiry into racism. Which isn't what we've got at the moment. Just to remind people, there is a Met review and there is also a review commissioned by the Home Secretary, but it isn't statutory.

That's right. And the point about what's becoming evident is that the problem is the police culture, that the police know that men are committing these offences and they don't understand that they're perpetrators. They don't understand that men who commit indecent exposure will probably go on to do worse things, as we know Wayne Cousins did. Let me bring Baroness Newlove back in because that point there that Joan made, and both of you making lots of points, I want to try and sort of sew them together if I can here, is the idea that a lot of what is holding police back from implementing the laws is their own issue some of the time, their own short-sightedness. So to Joan's point, how would what you're proposing here, Baroness Newlove, deal with that? Police would have to report themselves. Well, I have to say, for me, and I'm going to agree with Joan on some of this, the starting point is to try and crack the culture, is understand in the legislation,

as we've seen with nottingham police and northern is looking at how you hate crime recognizes a woman that's the first thing but on the second thing that joe mentioned i have totally agree we have got two inquiries going one for the government one for the met police i don't like met police i don't like any police force marking their own homework and i do think we need um a statutory inquiry that looks that opens the culture it's a public inquiry it calls witnesses i think that will then have a ripple effect to give confidence to public for communities and women because we've also got to build on that it's not just about legislation which is important on what i'm putting next next week and it's going to be a long in hand. But, you know, to feel very second class citizen in a 21st century is wrong,

but it is the culture and we've got to break it. So you both agree that on the idea of a statutory review, which isn't happening at the moment. No, it's not. Perhaps there will be pressure. Perhaps that will change. But, Joan, then why do you think, just leaving Baroness Newlove to one side at the moment, and anyone who's sort of got a parliamentary pass, why do you think those who are working in the police, like, let's say, Sue Fish, are saying, we should make misogyny a hate crime and others who aren't perhaps in that world, but have worked around it and have perhaps seen some evidence?

I think it's, at first sight, it's an attractive proposition, because, you know, the fact that hate crime legislation left women out, left misogyny out, is obviously absurd. And it's actually quite telling in the sense that when hate crime was being drawn up, they didn't think about probably the largest group of people, i.e. women, who were affected by it. But I think it's actually a sort of sticking plaster solution to a much, much larger problem, which I've been observing, I'm afraid, since the 1970s, which is that the police are very bad at spotting perpetrators, because they share a lot of attitudes with them. They share the misogyny. I remember... Some will.

Some will. I remember during the Yorkshire Ripper investigation, you know, the police would say, you know, the day we have him sitting across the table, we'll know. He doesn't have to confess. We'll know. And I thought, but he shares a lot of your attitudes because you make slighting remarks about prostituted women. You make slighting remarks about catching STDs from women. So, you know, that culture actually stopped them from spotting him. And if you look at what's happened since, conviction rates for really serious offences like rape have gone down. And that's because the police have... Well, there was a moment in 2016 when they particularly went down, which we're looking

at now. But it had been starting, but people had hoped, I wonder what you think of this, to get better. Well, I've read any number of, you know, reports into rape. And I remember Theresa May wrote the introduction to one of them saying, you know, this will rape. And I remember Theresa May wrote the introduction to one of them saying, you know, this will mark a sea change in how we deal with rape in this country. And what happened? Offences went down again, because it's not tackling the central question. It is inequality, but it's a particular kind of inequality, which is that men on the whole, men on the whole, and particularly men in the police force, do not believe women. They think that women tell lies

and they think that the experience that women describe is not important. But there are many women in the police as well. So as we've seen those numbers grow, is there no data to show how that's changed culture? I'm not sure what data there would be, but we have a metropolitan... Or any insights, sorry, that you may have gleaned. We have a metropolitan police commissioner who's a woman and, you know, I don't think that's helped at all. My personal view is that she should not be in her job. But, you know, that's a separate

thing. But I think the problem is that when people are drawn into that kind of culture, either they kind of learn to turn a blind eye or they complain and they get thrown out of it. I mean, a lot of women police officers or former officers have actually talked about their attempts to change this culture. Whistleblowing. Whistleblowing. And what's happened. I don't think it can be changed from within.

I want to just get both of you very, very quickly, if I can. Baroness Newlove, what do you make of this idea from BT that's been put forward? A phone line just for women. You're already shaking your head, Baroness Newlove. But just to remind our listeners, 888, that would be the number, proposed by BT for women walking home, being alone. The Home Secretary has made positive noises. Baroness Newlove. Probably haven't got enough time on this show, Emma, because I'm absolutely appalled.

First of all, 50 million, where's this come from? Well, we've got services cracking and failing at the knees. And secondly, to get a letter from the BT chief exec to say it'll be all set up by Christmas. We have got many fantastic apps already within the victim organisations. Holly Hazard, Gazard app is brilliant. I mean, you know, that's putting the onus back on women again. Why not spend it on, you know, the violence of these men that are actually out there? And I just think, you know, that's absolutely ridiculous.

It's an idiot reaction. We're not looking into this. It's, you know, why not support the services out there that can give the strength to people? So that would be a firm no from you? That is definitely. And apparently the Prime Minister is going to support this as well. So let me clarify that again. So just to say no public funds have been committed yet.

What we're going off are political correspondents saying positive noises have been made, but no commitment yet from the government. Would you call such a number, Joan? Should we have such a number? It's an extension of the old thing of telling women to stay at home. Now it's put women under surveillance. You know, why don't we tell men to stay at home? Exactly. Why don't we put men under surveillance? I mean, it's ridiculous. Yeah, Peter Sutcliffe, when he was around,

women were told to stay in. Absolutely. It still happens. So I think it's disgraceful. And an app again on the phone. We've got many that are already out there. People feel safe. I've met victims who have used it.

But 50 million, if it's a noise, well, let's see what the statements are going to be in the House of Commons. The invitation is very much open and has been renewed and will be renewed to both Cressida Dick and the Home Secretary, Priti Patel, to come and talk to me here on Women's Hour. Priti Patel was recently on, but talking about the refugee crisis with reference to Afghanistan. And I would very much welcome her to come back and talk about some of these issues as she's talking a lot about safety and women at the moment. Baroness Newlove, former Victims Commissioner, Conservative Peer, thank you very much for taking us out on the invitation we issued to you and to you Joan Smith. Just before you go Joan, can we address your former role as the co-chair of the London Mayor's Violence Against Women and Girls Board, an unpaid post you held for eight years,

a role I believe you lost in what's been described as restructuring. Do you know why you've lost that role? No, and I wrote to the Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime, Sophie Linden, four weeks ago at her request, explaining what I would like to hear from her in terms of why I was removed and how there's going to be from her in terms of what, you know, why I was removed and how there's going to be some independence in the chairing of it. Five weeks later, I haven't heard back from her except an acknowledgement. And I've heard nothing from Sadiq Khan.

Nothing at all? Not a word. And why do you, were other people removed from post at the same time? I don't know. I don't know. All I got was... Do you not know them because you were working together, sorry, that they weren't in their positions anymore? Well, no, because I chaired the VORG board, which is separate from the other boards. OK, the Violence Against Women and Girls.

The Violence Against Women and Girls board. And I was just summarily removed. I got an email at 4.30 on a Friday telling me I was no longer co-chair and that it would in future be chaired solely by somebody who's a civil servant at City Hall. And I was very shocked by that. And what do you suspect is the reason? Well, interestingly, I have been raising all this year before I was sacked.

I was actually calling on the mayor and the deputy mayor to support me in calling for an inquiry into institutional misogyny in the police. I was asking to have items on the agenda about violence committed by the police, offences committed by the police. And also I was simply asking them to commit to saying that refuges in London, which are funded by the mayor, do not have to admit male-bodied trans women to spaces that are intended for very vulnerable victims. And they won't answer me on that either. So you don't know if any of those things have led to your removal?

I don't, but it's now exactly a year since I first wrote to the mayor, Sadiq Khan, and asked him whether he would give me an assurance that the refuges would be protected if they use lawful exemptions in the 2010 Equality Act. And he has not, he has still not responded. So no response on that and no response as to why you're no longer in the post. We have a statement, a spokesman for the mayor's office for policing and crime said that they've undertaken a review of all of its partnership boards, including the board that you're talking about, Violence Against Women and Girls,

to enhance the strategic leadership of the criminal justice system for London and to standardise how all boards are chaired. Our boards bring together a broad range of experts and provide a plurality of viewpoints on the complex issues we are working to tackle. Joan Smith's expertise and insights on the VORG board have been valuable and we are grateful for her time and service. But you haven't yet heard back from Sadiq Khan, but that's the statement that we have been given. Or from the Deputy Mayor who actually asked me to think over

whether I'd continue to be involved, Sophie Linden. She has tweeted saying it's nothing to do with any views that you have expressed. But I take the point that you haven't heard from either of those people. That's the statement that we have. I wanted to give you the chance to talk. I know there's been a petition as well to get you reinstated. Would you serve again if you were asked? That's a good question to hear your answer on just very quickly. It's not about me. It's about having independence in the chairing of the Violence Against Women and Girls Board. And I think this is a critical moment in London, particularly, obviously, for the whole country. But it's a critical moment that it isn't just chaired by a civil servant from City Hall at a time when the mayor is the police and crime commissioner in London.

And one of his jobs is to challenge the Metropolitan Police. And I think it's absolutely vital that the Violence Against Women and Girls Board is independent. But would you do it again? I'd have to think about it. They haven't actually given me that opportunity. You know, I'm making a long cast list here, but let's see if I can get Sadiq Khan to come onto the programme as well,

or perhaps Sophie Linden will make the invitation after the programme. Joan Smith, thank you very much for your time. A message that's come in that I wanted to share. I had a positive experience of reporting something to the police and I think it was enhanced by the fact that I am a woman. My partner was away. I was in the house alone when the doorbell started ringing and whoever was there wouldn't go away.

By the time I rang 999, I was trembling and terrified. The operator was amazing, keeping me on the line. She could hear the bell ringing too. Two police officers arrived very quickly, checked the grounds and put me at ease. They left me feeling reassured that I should ring back straight away if I had any need and they would return. I completely sympathise with those who've had a negative experience. This is only my experience. That's from Kate.

Thank you very much for that message. Keep them coming in. I will come back to them shortly. And you're letting us know about your experiences of reporting anything to the police and what went on and how you are about this at the moment. But my next guest, probably best known around the world for her television role as the lawyer Luca Quinn in The Good Wife and then the follow-up series The Good Fight, Kush Jumbo is currently playing Hamlet at the Young Vic in London. Delayed for a year by the pandemic, the play sold out months before opening. She's the first woman of colour to play the part in a major production on a British stage. Kush Jumbo, congratulations. Good morning.

Good morning, Emma. Thank you for having me. I'm amazed you're awake because I saw you only a few moments ago, it feels like, and I'm still tired. Well, I have a three-year-old, so I've already done the nursery run this morning. But guess what? That went awful this morning. Today, it's like he knew. It's like he was like,

I want to stay and listen to Woman's Hour. It was, I don't want to go. I don't like it. I don't like the people. I don't like the toys. I don't want to go. I love you. My leg hurts. My bum hurts.

It was a whole thing. We had a bum hurting with a three year old in my house. I've been up for hours. Don't worry about me. I don't sleep. I just can't. I can't quite fathom it. You're having to go from to be or not to be to my bum hurts and I don't want to go to nursery. But that is real life. Why? We'll get back to that real life shortly. But why Hamlet, Kush? Because I know you've held it in your mind since you were breastfeeding your little boy.

Yes. I mean, I don't want people to think that I was sat there, you know, as he suckled, kind of, you know, doing speeches or anything. I'm not that. But no, I had had an experience playing Mark Antony in Phyllida Lloyd's Julius Caesar, which I really enjoyed. Not so much because the part was male, but because of the additional spectrum I was allowed to explore while playing a male part, because Shakespeare writes differently for men and women.

And I'd also played Rosalind in Ganymede and As You Like It and I'd had a similar experience because he kind of writes for Ganymede as he would write for a young man and you know once you get exposed to that kind of stake as I would call it which is very juicy in the mouth and full of incredible words and phrases but also the ability to show emotion on stage that actually as an actress and as a woman, you don't often get to do without appearing to be a nutter. You know, you get to show rage, get to declare war. You get to deal with mental health, but people still take you seriously.

Whereas usually you either kind of a huge whore or a crazy woman if you display those emotions. So Hamlet has always been one that I've been fascinated by because being the nerd that I am, I knew a lot about when he'd written it and how soon after his young son dying that he'd written it. He had a six or seven-year-old son called Hamnet that died. And I had been really interested in the idea that what he'd written was actually a kind of an imagining of a son that might have been. Had he come of age, but also knowing that the world wasn't quite ready for his child, that the child was born ahead of its time.

And that's why it was always going to be a tragedy and he was always going to die and that fascinated me because I have nieces and nephews who are in their teens I've had siblings in their teens I've been in my teens and there's something about being a young person and feeling like you don't quite fit or that you're in the wrong time and I think that that has become even more important and it exacerbated at the moment with discussion of self and gender and identification so I thought it was a good time to explore Hamlet through my body but playing him as a him and because you do yeah I should say that you are doing that you are playing him as him and I know that for you also you're interested in the analysis of of masculinity you know and what and what that means and you were drawn to that have you have you

come to a new place or a new conclusion yourself obviously you've talked about your your son and I know you you have a male partner I've worked it all out come on I need to know I've sorted it no um I mean I I had an interesting upbringing with my father because he was a house husband. He stayed at home for 16 years, but he was a kind of big, strong alpha male Nigerian guy. So he cooked and cleaned and he knew how to do everything. And he was very emotional. And my son is a little boy. And I've had a variety of partners in my life and my husband and all different kinds of men and um and I was yeah I wanted to explore the fact that I feel like masculinity is is boxed in a different uh way to

femininity but in one that's as restrictive in terms of what it's unable to um explore so yeah I I'm still kind of going through it. But what I'm discovering from the feedback I'm getting from audiences and from the messages I'm getting, the people I'm talking to is that they are feeling like I'm seem to be able to access something about men that isn't usually accessed through a man's body when a man plays cabinet. That's interesting. And are you now reading reviews? Do you follow what people say? If you're getting these messages,

I'm quite interested how you kind of cope with that, with all those words in your head and everything else. I don't read reviews until after I've finished a show, because they get into your head, and then you start trying to change what you're doing. So as a rule, for over 10 years, I haven't read reviews. But people Instagram message me, and, talk to me on the street and they wait outside the theatre and they wait till after the show

to talk to me and a lot of students are staying and talking to me. People shout at me and say I'm bruised. So I'm getting a lot of feedback. Live feedback, which of course you don't do when you're on TV. But is this story true? I love the idea that it was Christine Baranski from The Good Wife, Good Fight and many other things who saw you on stage and recommended you for the TV show. Yeah, I'd written a show about Josephine Baker that was at the Bush Theatre in London and it transferred to the Public Theatre in New York. And it was a one woman show.

I played all these 30 characters or something it sounded amazing I wish I'd seen that yeah yeah I hope we'll do it again one day um but yeah so she in New York everybody goes to theatre film people TV people like movie stars like everyone goes and they always come backstage you know in the UK someone famous comes to see your show unless unless they know you they're not going to come and like back and knock on your door but in New York they just kind of queue up outside your dressing room like coming to give you their their five minutes kind of thing which is obviously amazing she came in she kind of drifted like kind of you know on roller skates it's like she didn't even walk she just drifted on a cloud of glittery magic room and I was a I was a huge Good Wife fan. So I was absolutely awestruck that she was there.

And she told me she really loved it. And she said she was going to get the producers to come and watch it, which they did at the weekend. And then on the Monday, they offered me a job. Like you do. It's totally normal that. I mean, obviously, it's totally not normal. I mean, it never happened to me before. My whole time in New York, I kept waiting for someone to walk to kind of bust the studio door open and go, there she is, the imposter. Get her out. She's from Lewisham. And like, remove me from there. I first started watching, like many people, I didn't know you from Lewisham. And when I found out, I was like, there she there she is look at her go look at her go um also though

I read that she'd given you some great advice about um once you'd become a parent how you do this how you not you're not the actual doing of it but the creating of that space in your mind to go work and differentiating between um being at home and being all in there and then going out and working and we've been talking about that as it's our 75th anniversary you know that juggle and we heard about it yesterday from one of our listeners the emotional load where have you come to on that um it's something that I think anyone that's had kids it changes each year as you get to know the job a little bit more um I went when I first went back to filming my son was only three months old and I wasn't sleeping through the night because I was feeding him and then I get up and I shoot 15 hours

and then I wouldn't sleep through the night and I shoot 15 hours and I would still try to be a really good friend and a really good daughter and a really good wife and try and do everything because I just thought that's what I was supposed to be doing um but I have heard from many women including Christine um that's basically I've learned massively that uh I need to fail fail really well at something every day so I fail at something and I let it go in order to do something else better and every job as an actor is different because with Hamlet every night I go or every day I go to do two shows there's 500 people waiting there who have bought tickets that need to receive the show I can't fail at Hamlet on any evening because people have paid money to come and see it so when you're doing a play that takes up a large

percentage of what you're able to do that day and then I try to do some things with my son that are really um really present and really not trying to blur with other things and other things I just fail at like this morning at nursery he hates me and didn't want to go and hate me for five minutes but then he'll love me when I give him a caterpillar cake you know what I mean like it it'll balance out but I think I've learned everything costs something and if I want to play Ham, I've had to let other things go. And if I want to spend time with my son, I sometimes have to say no to a job or I have to make that space. The person I'm really bad at making space for is myself.

That's always the person that comes at the bottom of the list. And that's the bit that I need to get better at. Because I find that I can shoehorn myself into whatever's left over. And that's the bit that I need to get better at, because I find that I can shoehorn myself into whatever's left over. And that's not really sustainable. No. And I also read and I love that whole like failing hard. And one of my best male friends told me he just didn't do guilt, which was also really illuminating. He said it's just a waste of time. So I've tried to live by that. I'm like, he's not doing guilt. I'm going to try and not do the whole guilt thing.

But I also read that that whole experience has made you think about just having one child. And I know you're from a big family, but I also thought your honesty about that was really interesting. I think it's about knowing what you are able to do. And that is different for everybody. It's different for every woman. It's different for every woman it's different for every man but knowing what your capacity is in your heart in your soul and your in your mind mental health wise is a really strong position to be in because then you live I think a more contented life trying to live to someone else's capacity just because this person over here has

four children and 10 jobs and four you know know, and can do everything, it doesn't necessarily mean you can. And I am lucky that I was able to do bits of therapy at different points in my life. And I learned what my capacity is. And I can take quite a lot on in my job. And I throw myself into 110%. But that takes a lot of me. and my son takes a lot of me and I'm aware that if I try to do that again I would have to drop some of what I do and I don't want to drop what I do because I absolutely love it and it's who I am so I've decided that it that that is not something that I have the capacity for and that's okay with me you know and it's great to own it as well you know not

you know talk about it like that and own it kush jumbo i'm gonna let you go and get a bit more rest before that small man comes back with the aching bum and the aching leg or whatever else and you need to get yourself your own caterpillar cake uh there you go kush jumbo thank you very much for talking to us lovely to have you hamlet is at is at the Young Vic in London until the 13th of November. It is sold out, but I'm told there are some on the day returns and it will be live streamed on the 28th to the 30th of October. And Kush Jumbo is going to entertain you and take you to all sorts of places that Hamlet takes you.

Now, as I said at the start of the programme today, Radio 4 is having a day of the scientists. This means across the network, we're looking at the relationship between scientists and us. And today, there is a report by MPs, you've been hearing it at the top of all of the news bulletins, looking at the government's response to COVID as the pandemic began, I should say, and it makes for difficult reading. The first official report into our leader's response says the country must learn from big mistakes and describe the response as one of the most important public health failures the UK has ever experienced. In particular, groupthink among ministers, scientific advisors and civil servants was blamed. And that was hot

on the heels of a story yesterday that one in six critically ill COVID patients in hospital are unvaccinated pregnant women. It all raises the issue of trust in science and whether we believe what we're being told. And we also know from a report last year that women in particular are less likely to feel informed about science and are less trusting of scientists. Megan Halpern, Assistant Professor in the History, Philosophy and Sociology of Science at Michigan State University is joining me now. And also in the studio with me, Dr. Emily Dawson, lecturer at University College London, who researches how people learn about and engage with science. Emily, I'm going to start with you. Good morning. Good morning.

Those findings, just to put us in context, first of all, from the public attitudes to science survey. Why do we think, what do we know about why women are less likely to trust and connect with science on a day-to-day basis? Well, the overarching reason from all of our research and from sort of years of research now is that it speaks to this sort of androcentric or male-centered culture of science and medicine. So we see time and time again, it might not be that obviously women are not worse at science, but they are socialized to see science is not for them. So they are repeatedly alienated from science-related practices. And we see that in classrooms, we see that in the mass media, we see that in museums, we see that in careers. So when you then say, well, you know, why are women less knowledgeable? Why are women less trusting?

Actually, oftentimes that's a perfectly rational response to this kind of soup of socialisation that we're swimming in that says, hey, look, science is not for you. Don't worry your head about it, love. But what you would hope, for instance, just to bring us to that story from yesterday about unvaccinated pregnant women, is that perhaps they would be feeling trusting where there has been proof in the past it's been good for you, good for your family, where you can see evidence where it's helped everyone. So why do you think we're in that situation? Well, I think for a lot of people, we're looking at, we're not talking about the last six months worth of timeline, we're talking about your whole life. And if we're talking, you know, in research terms, we're talking about really deep socio political historic roots, where science has been maybe at women or on women, not but not by women or for women. So we see that kind of pattern as having much, much deeper roots than whether or not this this thing that you've just learned about in the last few months has or hasn't been good for you. And we also, in the vaccine for pregnant women case, should remember that the advice has changed. So only a few months ago, the advice was perhaps quite different and differently understood by women.

So now we should just say as a public service broadcaster here, the advice is you are to have it. And of course, that story yesterday will have put it on the agenda of people in a very serious way. Yeah, exactly. Let me bring in Megan at this point. Megan, what's your take? Let's talk specifically about the pregnant women there and the trust and how you see that from what you know of women's disconnect with science and their trust in it? Sure. So women, I think Emily put it very well that science is done at women and not by and for women. And I think in addition to that, you know, we often think about science communication as explaining science to members of the public, but that's not really how

communication works. That's not really how it happens. And so the way that I think about and talk about science communication is as having experiences with science, that when you interact with science, when you encounter scientific or medical concepts, that you are interpreting them, finding meaning in them. So there are all kinds of ways that this happens. And for pregnant women, especially, they're given all kinds of conflicting information about what they can and can't eat, can and can't put in their bodies. And there's sort of experience that that leads up to is one of really protecting the fetus at all costs and maintaining purity for the fetus in a lot of cultures right now.

And so it makes perfect sense then if you're told you can't have wine, you can't have coffee, you can't have tea, you can't have soft cheeses, you can't eat any of these things, then why would you put something as you know as serious as a vaccine in your body right and so if your experiences aren't if if those are the kinds of experiences you're having it sort of does make perfect sense and and coming away from from that

example and i thought this might be useful at this point emily when we talk about science you know what what are we talking about because it's not just vaccines that's what's in our mind at the moment yeah absolutely and i was just nodding, nodding my head off to what Megan was saying. What we see again and again, whether it's the most recent public attitudes to science survey or other pieces of research, is that when you ask people what science is, they will tell you it's school science. So biology, chemistry, physics, very occasionally maths, almost never engineering, very rarely medicine. And what we start to see if you look at this kind of soup of socialization and all of the encounters that we have with science in our day to day lives, people think of science in ways that

reflect very narrow, mainstream dominant narratives about science as being something for men and boys, often very white, often in this country very Eurocentric, often for rich and upper class people as well. And so the kinds of people who are recognised for having scientific expertise, for being good at science, for bringing science into society, and the kinds of stories then that are told, whether it's the mass

media or these museums or in schools, are repeating again and again and again this pattern. So that if you are a young woman from a background that's racialized in this country, and you're in a central London school, it's quite difficult for you to see yourself in science in a positive way that makes you comfortable relating to science, that makes it seem like it's something that you could do, that you could be excited about, that you could relate to. And I know that some people are going to think this is a random segue, but you're going to justify it, that you think knitting might be a way through this.

Well, yes. So I think one of the things that we see time and time again is when things are feminized, they're devalued in our society. And when they are coded as male, they are valued. And one of the examples that we quite often talk about is this idea of knitting as code. And when you talk to women about science, often they will not associate their practices, their knowledges as being scientific. But of course, you can think about knitting patterns as a form of code. And if you start to think in these different ways, you can see science actually in all these different kinds of places. And the other classic example is young girls in particular and their fan fiction around the latest pop star. But often that isn't seen as kind of proper respectable coding. But of course, it's wildly creative, totally imaginative coding that that has so many skills and so much potential. So I think

one of the things I think would be, I mean, that I would just love to see, but I know we've talked about for decades is just more than one way to be into science more than one way to be a scientist. I also have minded, of course, Megan, at this point to bring up the fact that we've seen some incredible women on the stage, as it were, of public life because of the pandemic. More recently, I'm thinking perhaps, of course, in this country is Professor Sarah Gilbert, who led the development of the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine. I mean, of course, role models have always been touted. But what for you would change that relationship or improve that relationship between women and science in the broader sense? So, yes, absolutely. Having representation is incredibly important. Having female role models is incredibly important.

But we also have to think about the ways that we interact with women in healthcare settings, right? Often, you know, when women are spoken to by doctors, by healthcare professionals, they aren't taken seriously. We know from past studies, women's pain is underestimated. Often women aren't listened to by their doctors. And so there's this whole other area. Part of the reason for that is because we haven't because increasingly this is changing. But traditionally, doctors haven't been women. And so they aren't necessarily they don't necessarily have the same kinds of experiences that women are having. Now, increasingly, that's changing. But the way that we talk to women isn't necessarily caught up. And so when we think about those interactions, because women, women join, if I may, just women join an institution that has been shaped and created largely by men. And weirdly, there's a parity there with what we say about the police.

You know, women now running police forces. We said this right at the beginning of the program. And are we seeing the culture change? Sorry. So carry on, because I think that's just an interesting comparison. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah. So women are enculturated as they become doctors to have some of the same kinds of paternalistic attitudes. Right. And so and to devalue women's experiences or patients experiences at the expense of scientific or medical expertise and and to devalue those personal experiences. You know, one of the projects that I'm working on right now has to do with controversy surrounding Lyme disease in the United States. And one of the things that we're interested in is that there's this real clash between Lyme disease advocates and patient groups and the medical professionals and researchers around the diagnosis, even diagnosis of what counts as Lyme disease, and treatment and the long-term effects. And part of the problem is they just aren't, none of this research and none of the work that the medical professionals and researchers are

doing really is centered on the patient's experiences of pain and of long-term pain. And so even when you have better role models um even when you have the have better role models even when you start changing the way we think about science you still have this very top-down uh expert focused um perspective on how we uh how we understand what people are going through megan halpern thank you very much for for your time and expertise dr emily dorsey i think it's it's that thing isn't about keeping in balance um you know scientists aren't perfect like like anyone they're you know they're part of society and especially after the report i just mentioned today but also recognizing there's a balance there with faith and all of that you've made uh miss varney very

happy he's got in touch on twitter saying i've never thought of my cross stitch patterns as coding before good to know i'm not just doing a hobby so Dr Emily Dawson thank you very much for changing Miss Barney's view of her work there and it is complicated I definitely can't do it so thank you very much for getting in touch and thank you for your responses today and many messages too that have come in and we'll go through those after the program again and be back in touch if we can. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. This is Add to Playlist, our new podcast from BBC Radio 4 with me, Keris Matthews. And me, Geoffrey Boakye. Ditch the streaming algorithm as we take you on a musical journey of discovery. In each show, we'll create a playlist of five tracks chosen by keris and myself and with the help of a different studio guest each week

we'll explore the rich and unexpected web of connections between the music you love hate and haven't even heard of that's a promise we'll go under the bonnet of our compositions and look closer at the nuts and bolts to reveal what's behind our favourite tunes. Just search for Add to Playlist on BBC Sounds. on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.