Woman's Hour - Cynthia Erivo, Eating disorder system failures, Writer Christina Patterson, Cancer gene testing

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

People with eating disorders are being repeatedly failed by the system and radical changes need to be made to prevent further tragedies. That’s according to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman UK, Rob Behrens. He says little progress has been made in the six years since the publication of a report which highlighted serious failings in eating disorder services. Rob joins Nuala to talk about what those failings are, and what needs to be done.In her memoir Outside the Sky is Blue, writer and journalist Christina Patterson tells her story of what it's like to grow up with a sibling who is mentally ill. Her older sister, Caroline, had her first breakdown when she was fourteen and Christina was nine. Later, Caroline was diagnosed with schizophrenia and was heavily medicated for the rest of her life. Christina joins Nuala to discuss growing up in a family in the shadow of mental illness. Actor, singer, songwriter, and all round South London superstar Cynthia Erivo joins Nuala to speak about her role in the upcoming film, Luther: The Fallen Sun, where she appears opposite Idris Elba. She’ll also talk about making the movie version of the musical Wicked, where she is playing the lead role of Elphaba, and being one step away from an EGOT (an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar and a Tony) award winner.Would you want to know if you were going to get cancer? Journalist Hilary Osborne was diagnosed with breast cancer last year. She regrets not finding out sooner whether she carries the BRCA2 gene. Whereas comedian Michelle Brasier has been told by doctors she has a 97% chance of developing cancer, and is living life to the full. So, how do you face the stark reality of living with a hereditary and life-shortening illness? Hilary and Michelle join to Nuala to talk about their experiences. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, yes, you are very welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, we have a superstar with us today. The actress, singer and songwriter behind this. You might know Cynthia Erivo from her role as Harriet Tubman in the 2020 film, which that song Stand Up is from. She'll be joining me to talk about her brand new film, where she acts opposite none other than Idris Elba. And, you know, I was scrolling through

her Instagram feed last night and she sometimes posts working out really hard while also singing beautifully. Quite an accomplishment. I want to know how she does it, so I will ask that. But on the subject of working out, did you see the photos of the Princess of Wales competing with her husband, Prince William, in a spinning class? And she won, wearing heels, might I add, on that cycle. And it got me to thinking, are you competitive with your partner? In what way? Is it exercise or maybe something like Scrabble? Maybe it's Hour, or you can indeed email us through our website. Some of you might prefer to leave a voice note or a WhatsApp message. That's 03 700 100 444. Also, when I stopped scrolling, I was also reading.

Outside the Sky is Blue. Now, this is a memoir by Christina Patterson, looking at the intricacies of family relationships. We're going to talk about how a sibling with a complex mental illness can affect the whole family. Now, if this is something that is resonating with you as I speak about it, please do get in touch. The text number again, 84844 or on social media at BBC Woman's Hour. But I want to begin with eating disorders. According to BEAT, which is an eating disorder charity, approximately 1.25 million people in the UK have an eating disorder and 75% of them are female. Now, eating disorders are mental illnesses such as anorexia or bulimia where people use disordered eating behaviour

as a way to cope with difficult situations or feelings. The disorders impact men as well as women, but in a smaller number. Today, there's a new podcast launching on BBC Sounds. It's called The Way Up, where a woman called Molly tells the story of her anorexia journey and thankfully recovery. But not everyone is so lucky. The Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman UK, that is Rob Behrens,

he has warned that people with eating disorders are being repeatedly failed by the system and that radical changes need to be made to prevent future tragedies. And he said there actually has been little progress made in the past six years since the publication of a report that was called Ignoring the Alarms, also by the PHSO, which highlighted failings in the services

for people with disordered eating. Rob Arons joins us now on Woman's Hour. Welcome, Rob. Good morning. Good to be with you. So that report I mentioned was published in 2017. We're now in 2023. What were the serious failings that you were highlighting and what you feel now has not been addressed?

Thank you. I remember this report very clearly because it was the first big report that I published when I became the ombudsman. And we were shocked to find the state of dealing with eating disorders in the health service, a shortage of expertise in eating disorders, partly because it was insufficiently placed on the curriculum for medical training,ate provision in the NHS with cut-offs between those who are 18 and under and those who are adults and no continuity between those two things and a lack of continuity between community and inpatient provision. I'm afraid there was also a lack of coordination between NHS trusts and other providers, given that people move around the

country and young people go to university, not always at home. And finally, in addition to a lack of rigour in constructing care plans, there was and still continues to be insufficient listening to the families of people with eating disorders. So that makes for sobering reading, Rob. To bring our listeners up to speed, in 2019, there was a response to that previous report. They said eating disorders would be made a priority. But from what you're telling me, there has been little progress made. Why? I don't think there are villains in this case. The NHS is under great pressure. This is not a criticism of individuals in the NHS. Some of the issues which we raised have been addressed in terms of incremental development of the curriculum, greater investment in mental health

provision, and the dissemination of good practice. And certainly more money has been spent. So this represents some good work by the delivery group of the NHS England and the GMC and others. But two things. First of all, the select committee in Parliament was not convinced that sufficient progress had been made in 2019, having heard the evidence. And secondly, as we now know from a comprehensive National Audit Office report in February of this year, the situation has become much more serious as a result of COVID and the impact that COVID has had on young people, the rise in eating disorders and mental health illnesses in young people, resulting in greater waiting lists and a kind of postcode lottery in the provision of adult services. I'm just thinking with that particular aspect though, Rob, perhaps that was something that could not be foreseen. It certainly was not foreseen in 2019.

And what I'm saying is that even then, the Select Committee and we had the view that insufficient focus and attention had been played to this issue. What I'm saying now is that from the cases that I'm seeing on a regular basis, the situation has not improved. And young women in particular, women, teenagers, and also women in their 20s and 30s are tragically dying, avoidable deaths in the health service because of the inappropriate provision which is given to them. You did mention some of the areas where there has been progress, for example, children and young person support services. But I am interested in that aspect you raised about a lack of parity between child and adult services. And obviously, an 18 year old will age out of those child services. Why have the adult services for eating disorders lost out? Well, I think, first of all, mental health provision has lost out in comparison to other provisions in the health service. And the government has done something to redress that balance.

But in redressing the balance, the focus has been on mental health in general rather than eating disorders in particular. And so the inadequate provision of adult services has not really been addressed and has actually got worse as a result of the rise in mental health illness coming from COVID. What provision is needed then for a complex mental illness like an eating disorder within the medical system? Yeah, well, you know, the elements of it are there. There has to be a balance between community provision and inpatient provision in the NHS. And what we are seeing is that community provision is being overwhelmed with people needing to get early recognition of their eating disorders. But because of the waiting lists and delays, that is not happening. And people are getting into very serious trouble as a result of that lack of capacity. And until that is addressed,

the situation is not going to improve. And my concern is that although there has been increased funding into the NHS, we know from the data that there are still A, staff shortages, B, failures in expertise and the lack of expertise, and C, a failure to join up provision so that people who move around are not properly supported in doing so. I do want to just read a statement from the NHS. The spokesperson said, while the pandemic has taken a huge toll on many people's mental health,

improving care for people with an eating disorder is vital, with the NHS treating 55% more young people for eating disorders compared to pre-pandemic, as well as rolling out a rapid early intervention eating disorder service for people aged 16 to 25. But that would seem to go against what you're saying, Rob. They went on to say next year the NHS is investing around £1 billion into adult community mental health services, which will expand and improve these services and will help join up, using that term, with the local GPs to help more people get the care they need. I think it's hard for our listeners to know what does a billion pounds mean in this scenario? Yeah, I mean, we know that £12 billion a year is spent on mental health provision. So that is a significant investment. But my point is that for the government to say

we're doing quite a lot since 2019 doesn't address the issue that the situation has deteriorated drastically as a result of COVID. And we know from coroner's reports that since 2019, there have been at least 19 avoidable deaths from young people whose families say they have not been properly supported, that there hasn't been expertise to help them, and that the families, and this is the worst thing, the families say they have not been listened to by doctors in a way that suggests there isn't proper communication. So let's drill down into that. You are the ombudsman. You mentioned 19 avoidable deaths, which is a terrible number. I do know since April 2019, you've received 234 complaints relating to eating disorder services. What are you recommending to make that listening

happen? Well, there has to be a cultural shift, not only in the NHS, but across government in terms of listening to people, in terms of joining up services and making sure that core things like care plans are properly constructed and worked upon. And that isn't happening to the extent that it should be. And it won't happen until we have an increase in the capacity of doctors to understand the issues. And I know from the select committee and the good work that's been done, that it's been extremely difficult to increase the amount of training that doctors get on eating disorders, because there's so many multiple bodies who have responsibility for the education of medics. And that hasn't happened as quickly as it needs to be.

So there's no magic bullet here, but there needs to be a cultural shift focusing on citizens and people who are in difficulties and responding to them. Rob Behrens, Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman UK. Thank you so much. And for my listener, if you are worried about yourself or someone you know, there is more information about eating disorder charities and services on our website and let me see

Jacqueline getting in touch she says our doctor wouldn't let me speak when my 16 year old daughter and I went to talk to him about her very poor eating

a school nurse eventually picked up on her skinny appearance and started regularly weighing her and I was so relieved not listening to parents is a silly approach so do do keep them coming. 84844. We have in studio with us now, Christina Patterson,

the writer and journalist. Good morning. Good morning. Now, I think you have faced more than your fair share of tragedy. I think our listeners would also agree as they hear your story. You are the only surviving member of your family. You grew up with two parents and two siblings. Your older sister, Caroline, was often very troubled as a little girl and she was eventually diagnosed with schizophrenia in her teens.

I am asking my listeners, you know, their experience of a sibling with a complex mental illness and how it affects the whole family. You've written this memoir, Outside the Sky is Blue, about just that. But I should say also that it is an uplifting read. Do you want to talk a little bit perhaps for our listeners about your childhood? Because to me, as I read it, it seemed idyllic in some ways with these two loving parents and a brother and a sister that seemed to an awful lot of family adventures. Yes, well, I mean, I was extremely lucky in so many ways. And when you talk about having an

unfair amount of tragedy, I do know, I think on balance, I still count myself lucky because all of these things are relative. And actually, I mean, I don't want to sound too kind of earnest here, but all of us in the Western world are lucky in the kind of global lottery. And I still think that, my own life, there is masses of joy and beauty in it. But my parents were extraordinary people. They met, my mother was Swedish, my father was British, they met on a hill in Heidelberg. It was apparently love at first sight, which of course I was never able to live up to. They got married in a church in Sweden, lived in a bed, sit in Earl's Court with a shared bathroom and shared kitchen. And then my father

got his first posting in the diplomatic service to Bangkok, where suddenly my mother arrived aged 22 with five servants and a white grand piano. And having been brought up on free school meals and hand-me-downs in Sweden, it was quite a shock. So my parents had this very glamorous life in Bangkok where my sister was born and then moved to Rome where my brother and I were born. And then when I was nine months old and my sister was probably five, nearly six, they moved to a 1960s housing estate in Guildford. And I later discovered that one of the reasons, in fact, probably the main reason they did that was because they thought my sister would not be able to cope with the peripatetic life of a diplomat because she was already showing signs of being very difficult. But we did have, you know, a lovely suburban childhood

and we went to National Trust houses and we went for walks in local beauty spots and we went to summer holidays to Sweden. So, you know, in many ways, it was a very privileged middle-class childhood with loving, as you say, two loving parents. But you allude to your sister there, Caroline, and even at a young age that she was troubled.

They didn't know why exactly. Tell us a little bit more about how it evolved to understand that she had this illness that was going to affect the family. Yes, well, my mother very sadly blamed herself and I'm sure she was wrong to do that. But there was incredibly now looking back, they didn't fly to Bangkok, their journey back to the UK was on a boat, which took something like five weeks. And there was a ridiculous thing where children were not allowed to eat at the captain's table with my parents. And she was, you know, stuck in another

room. And she screamed and screamed and screamed. And my mother said that I think she was about 18 months or two at the time. And after that, she was never the same again. So she was, I mean, she's a sweetie. I do want to make that clear. She was a very, very sweet person and she was deeply loved and she was very curious. She had many friends, but she found life very difficult. And she did have what my mother called scenes, I suppose you would call them tantrums, very frequently through childhood, which were very difficult for all of us. And then when she was 14, she went off to stay with a family in Norway, had some kind of traumatic experience. I think she was homesick. She was isolated. She was on an island with one girl and her grandmother for a while. And when she came back, I later discovered,

but I didn't realise at the time, she'd had psychotic symptoms. And my mother told us she'd had a breakdown, she disappeared to the psychiatric unit, to the adolescent unit of a psychiatric hospital. My brother and I had no idea what had happened to her. And things were never the same. When she came out, she was heavily medicated. She'd put on loads of weight. She had severe acne. She was shaking from the Largacil, which she took. And she took that drug for the rest of her life. She died when she was 41. So she had a very hard life and was an exceptionally brave person. But of course, in many ways, the family revolved around her after that. Throughout the book, you are looking back on files and folders.

My God, this meticulous history between many family members. They kept everything, various photographs, files, what happened, when, how, which I was astounded by. But learning, I suppose, that your sister was going to have a difficult life, which happened throughout your teenage years as well. I suppose the full impact of it became realised or more materialised. When you look back at that now, how do you understand it? Well, it's interesting what you say about the records. My mother, I'm the journalist,

but I think my mother should have been a journalist. Oh my goodness, the photographs at every moment. I'm totally chaotic in keeping this stuff, but she wrote a diary every day of her life. Interestingly, the one day she didn't write one was the day Caroline went into the adolescent unit of the psychiatric hospital. Her diary entry for that day is blank. But when I look back, I suppose, I think all kinds of things. And one of them is that my parents were absolutely heroic. You know, my mother, her world had completely fallen

apart, but she, you know, kind of held it together. she had a full-time job she obviously kept the family going my parents would go to visit Caroline at this psychiatric hospital every single day my father when she was allowed out they begged for her to be allowed out and they would he would get up at five o'clock in the morning to drive her there and pick her up in the evenings but I think I think it took a very heavy toll on all of us. And, you know, I went a bit mad, I think, in retrospect. I went to a youth club in order to meet boys. We've all done that. Sorry?

We've all done that. Well, it didn't work out very well because the youth club was attached to a Baptist church and I shortly discovered that you were not, in fact, allowed to touch the boys because you were meant to be married to the Lord Jesus Christ. And I became, in effect, a fundamentalist Christian from the age of 14 to 25. And I also developed all kinds of physical symptoms. I developed very severe acne. I developed very debilitating pains in my knees. And looking back, of course, one could never know. But looking back, I think so many of these things

were signs of my own distress that I didn't know how to deal with because I think one thing we just don't really talk about is what happens to the other people in the family and particularly what happens to siblings of someone going through a mental illness. Of course the person who suffers most is the person with the mental illness,

but the horrible reality is that everybody suffers. And your family, from my reading of the book, was incredibly close-knit. So it wasn't like you could put them away to one side or compartmentalise that mental illness, for example, if it's ever possible to do that. How would you describe your relationship with your sister, Caroline? Oh, that is such a hard one to answer because there is one of the things I write about in the book and it was incredibly distressing when I discovered it. My mother, after Caroline died, I told my mother I wanted to find out more about her illness and my mother gave me one of her diaries and maybe she shouldn't have done but I found two pages sellotaped together and of course I slit open those pages and I saw that my sister had written

the name Christina Patterson makes me want to choke with hatred dear God please may Christina die of cancer and sorry but I read that after I'd had breast cancer and was obviously deeply shocked now Caroline was 20 when she wrote that, I was 15. We all have feelings of intense hatred, envy and resentment. And I think we loved each other. And we also had enormous resentment of each other. She completely understandably resented having a sister who apparently had a very easy life in comparison to her. And I resented the fact that in my view, she ruined everything all the time. Of course, she didn't. But at her, when she was ill, when she was having her scenes, when the attention was on

her as a child and as a teenager, I felt at some level deeply resentful of that. But I have to say that I loved her deeply. And I think she loved me deeply. And when I did develop terrible pains in my knees in my mid 20s, which were subsequently diagnosed as lupus, an autoimmune disease, from which I did, thank goodness, get better. I think in one strange sense, maybe I was doing that unconsciously to equalise things between us so that she had an illness and I had an illness and I felt at that time when I was going through great pain and I ended up unemployed and severely anxious and depressed with you know an incurable autoimmune disease in my mid-20s which obviously was a very difficult situation I felt at times that she was the only one who looked at me with

who would look at me you know who would be a kind of witness to my pain. And I think there was, in spite of everything, a very profound love between us. And when she died suddenly of cardiomyopathy when she was 41, I was devastated and I felt, I believed, and I said at her funeral that she was the bravest person I knew. Yes, and of course what you hated was the illness, not your sister and what that, the havoc really that it wreaked at that time.

And I know it must be very emotional to speak about these things. Your brother Tom? Yes, sorry, Tom died four years ago, very suddenly, of a heart attack. And he was very close to my sister. They had a wonderful relationship. She actually, from the moment he was born, I can see in the photos, my mother wrote this, she absolutely adored him and he adored her.

He didn't have an easy life either. He had his own struggles with anxiety and depression. He was a sweetheart. Everyone called him a gentle giant. He was six foot six. Children loved him. He had an unconventional life in many ways, but he was a very, very good and lovely person.

And one of the reasons I wrote the book is that I really feel and felt that every member of my family, they were all profoundly decent, good people. is that I really feel and felt that every member of my family, they were all profoundly decent, good people. And I do believe that ultimately that is the most important thing in a life. It does come across. And as I read about Tom, who was kind of a golden boy in his early years,

to me, it seemed just as an observer having absolutely no expertise at all. But it was, again, that schizophrenia illness that was the ripples of it that were going through your family and everybody trying to cope in whatever way that they could and our listeners might be kind of realizing we've talked about your mum and dad and Tom and Caroline in the past tense because they have died you are this person who has left that was looking back on all those memories and I'm sure I have many listeners that are in that same position. And I'm just wondering how it feels because it was something that was so, such an intense really web around you, these people that are not here physically now. That's such a tough question to answer. I think, I think, of course, I miss them. I think we all have our own strategies for dealing with grief. I'm lucky in that I was single for most of my

adult life, but I met my wonderful partner, Anthony, before my mother died and before my brother died. And I think, if I'm honest, it would have been much harder if I'd still been on my own then, because I don't feel completely on my own in the world. I feel proud of my family. I feel they should have lived longer. My brother and sister should have lived longer, but I think they had good lives. And I think we get through how we can. And I'm a great believer in Keats. Well, you don't have to believe in Keats, he existed, but I love Keats's poetry. And in his Ode on a Grecian Urn, he says, beauty is truth, truth's beauty, that is all you know on earth and all you need to know. And in a

way, that's the maxim I live by. I believe in beauty and truth, and that's what keeps me going. Yeah, so that is where you find the joy in your life. It's a beautiful book, I have to say. I feel like I got to know your family very intimately. So thank you so much for coming on Woman's Hour and for sharing your story. Christina Patterson, again, the book is called Outside the Sky is Blue. If you know somebody who's been affected by mental illness you can find help and support on our website

I do want to read a comment that came in my sister became psychotic as a teenager and had further episodes and she was put in a boarding school with a psychiatric unit I was heartbroken people comment on her behavior sometimes now and I wish they could understand what she has been through it has had a significant effect on my life so Christina people very much hearing you today you are listening to Woman's Hour if you want to get in touch with us

it is 84844 but now I want to turn to the actor, singer, song writer and all round South London superstar Cynthia Erivo she's joined me to talk about her role as DCI Odette Rayne in the upcoming film, Luther, The Fallen Son. Now, you might know that Cynthia has collected a Grammy,

a Tony, an Emmy for her role in The Colour Purple on Broadway in 2017. Oscar nominated for her portrayal of the American abolitionist, Harriet Tubman. That was the movie Harriet in 2020. And as well as acting opposite Idris Elba in the new Luther film, which premieres globally on the 10th of March on Netflix, Cynthia, because she's not busy enough, is also currently making the movie version of the musical Wicked

in the lead role of Elfaba. Welcome, Cynthia. So great to have you on Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. Hello. And you're looking incredibly glamorous, I have to tell our radio listeners this morning, in various shades of grey.

And oh, my goodness, the nails are incredible. We're going to have to put that up digitally and people to check it out at BBC Woman's Hour. Let us talk about Luther. As I was watching it, very action packed, this gripping drama, I was thinking it is relatively unusual to see two black actors in the leads in a film like that. And I was wondering, was that what you were thinking about, Cynthia, as you looked at the role? I guess to a point, to a degree, yes.

But mostly I was thinking about how fabulous these two roles were opposite each other. They're like oil and water. They don't necessarily mix, but they seem to have a commonality between the two of them. And I just thought the role was really fun to do. It was really different to anything I'd done before. And I wanted to jump at the chance. And I thought it was a wonderful opportunity to see our two faces in those spaces. And we did.

And you as DCI Reign. What was it about her in particular? Because she's a complicated character in some ways. Yes, she is i i that that was the reason i loved her i think there was this sort of you know on the outset you think that she sort of it's all black and white for her there's no gray area one it's good or evil and there's nothing in between and and as you get to know her and as you move through through the film you realize that she has to come to terms with the fact that there is a gray area and sometimes we all have to step into it. And I think that her discovering that she is

both darkness and light is just a really fun thing to discover myself and really fun thing to play. I love the fact that she is, you know, tough without really needing to be tough. I love that she has the power in the room without having to force it on anyone. And it was fun to play with those sort of ebbs and flows and the colours of that. It was great to do. Let's listen to a little of her now. Earlier's crime goes back 11 years.

The most recent dates back to last year. So where were the bodies stored in the interim and who would have the kind of space, time, or money to do something like that? This has been carefully planned and executed over a number of years, so there'll be a lot of data to pass. But... you find me one point of commonality between these victims,

just one, and you'll have our killer. Yes, ma'am. Let's get to it. Find me that connection. I guess, Cynthia Erivo, as DCI Odette Raine. Your character is put under

severe pressure, I think it's fair to say, without giving away the plot, but she keeps it together the whole time. Was there anybody from your life that you draw on to play her

oh there's a few women actually I think she's an amalgamation of different women that I've met and and different people that I know friends and family but I think she just sort of was created by by Neil's wonderful writing I you kind of want to you know there's the mother in her and then there's the the businesswoman and there's the fighter. And it's all sort of like different people that I've met and different people that I know. And then a bit of me, I think. And I think my want to survive as well, I think,

is sort of injected into her. She's kind of brilliant. I really enjoyed her. Different. Yeah, the storylines are harrowing. I jumped about 10 times during the movie um how did you deal with that as an actor something that was that fast-paced um I suppose shocking at times oh I loved it that's my that's my cat nip do you know I mean

I love that physical and that sort of like hands-on um all the stunts and whatnot uh me doing it and i that's incredible yeah yeah i i love i love all of that i love being able to use my body in that way i love being able to to inject those kinds of moments into characters that i get to play yeah for sure the london as i was just sorry to step on you, as a Londoner, I was just thinking about some of those times because the London backdrops are amazing. Fantastic. We took over Piccadilly Circus for about two nights, I think, two or three nights and did that whole, there's a big set piece that happens and we did it right there. And it was brilliant, thrilling, very thrilling. I'll never look at Piccadilly Circus

in the same way again. I'm not giving away the plot. Did you know Idris Elba before making the film or was it the first time? No, I didn't know him before the film. It was the first time working with him, but I had met him before

and we knew each other very well and we're good friends. I'm just thinking as well, you were talking about all your stunts and being so physical. You have so many aspects to your career. People will know you for singing, acting, West End, Broadway, could be a TV show or a massive film, of course. Do you have a favourite?

A favourite? No, I think what's really fun now is that i get to combine all of those things in one so wicked is sort of like a dream come true just because it's got everything in it and i love doing luther because that also was like a it's everything physical movement i'm running around i'm also diving into drama so whenever i can play more than one thing, more than one facet of myself, then I'm more than in. I love it.

And of course, going in a completely different direction was playing the title character in the film Harriet. That's the story of Harriet Tubman, the American abolitionist. Did it feel like a responsibility to play that figure that is an icon for so many yeah it was a huge responsibility um and from the very beginning the director and IKC Lemon knew that we were taking on something that was really big and really special and we wanted to

with care and love and we took every day step by step and worked through it. And it was sometimes very, very tough and other times very, very joyful. But it was a really enlightening experience for me. And with that, you were double nominated for Harriet, Oscar nominated in 2020. But you're just an Oscar away from this coveted EGOT, as people say. So Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and a Tony. I know when I might put my bet on,

but what's your best bet on when you're going to complete that set? And I say when, not if. I have no idea. I don't know because things can change and things can shift and no one really knows what's going to happen.

But your lips are God's ears and thank you for even putting them in the universe. But as we look at your career, it's so vast and you've done so much to break down barriers. Is there any particular role that you're intensely proud of in expanding representation?

I'm really proud of all of them, to be honest. I pick really, really specifically. I pick really carefully because I tend to go for the roles that I haven't met before. One of the reasons I love this role is because I had rarely seen black women in those spaces as a DCI, in places of power, and not having to ask for it necessarily just having it i i thought there was something really special about that um and then obviously with harriet was a really special role to to play and and it was a special

woman to learn about and there was such um history and and ancestry in that that it just was a special thing I pick all of these roles really special really particularly I did a small tv um role in a series called Raw and I liked that because it was horror like actual horror and this woman was all over the place and it was happening to her and I had never seen anything like that before. And I think what I try to do is pick roles that wouldn't necessarily on the outlook be a face like mine playing them. And hopefully it opens the doors a bit more for more of us.

Beautiful face like yours. I have to tell our listeners if they're not looking yet. There's been a lot of discussion really about the importance of representation in awards and nominations so much, whether we talk about the BAFTAs or the Oscars. What's your view of it now? Do you think there's been significant progress? For the nominations, yes. For the the wins maybe not the nominations are changing the way the nominations look are changing the way the wins are aren't necessarily making leaps and bounds we're moving forward but we're still we're still not we're still not shifted yet what why why is there still that hill to climb why do you think it's not translating into the winds?

I don't know. I mean, I think sometimes there aren't the roles to even be seen. I think that sometimes the films that are picked to be seen don't necessarily have leading ladies that are black always or there are very few of those roles going around there are very few of them that get seen by larger audiences and so there are a few of them that get nominated um it starts there really it starts at studio level it starts at at casting level and if the casting doesn't necessarily go to us or anyone of color then you're not going to see them during award season because they were never made

so you feel in the right direction but still a lot further to go yeah we've got lots of work to do still um i want to turn back to some of your singing for a moment uh and your your stunts and your workouts as we were talking about you do these strenuous workouts and on instagram people can watch them and you do them while singing is that for added endurance training no it's because i enjoy it i like music and i listen to it when i'm working out and i can't help but sing along and it's just a get like an added bonus that it helps with my lungs. I just enjoy myself. I don't necessarily think I sound great when I'm doing it, but I feel good when I am. So I just kind of have fun. Probably better than the average bear, but at 3.40 in the morning was one I was looking

at recently. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my pickups are so early in the morning that the only time I can get it done is earlier than that. And so because for me, the way to get my day started is to work out. I have no choice but to do it as early as I'm doing it. And so that way I can move through the day focused and energetically. Yeah. I love it. You did sing Staying With The Singing. You sang Ada Weiss for Dame Julie Andrews as she won a Life Achievement Award. What was that like?

That was phenomenal. It was amazing. She was right opposite me. And at the end, she thanked me and blew me a kiss. And I thought that was the end of it. I was happy enough after that. And then a couple of months later, I received a letter from her thanking me

for doing that performance to her and I framed the letter because uh that was possibly one of the biggest dreams ever to come true it was really cool I just knew she'd have wonderful manners I mean yeah that's that's what we'd expect but you um you mentioned that your pickups are really early what time does somebody come to pick you up anywhere from four o'clock to six or something and if i'm lucky i might get an eight o'clock pickup but usually it's it's about 4 44 to 4 45 okay so i'm thinking is that for wicked. Okay so you are currently filming the movie version of the musical so taking the lead role so that's the Wicked Witch of the West. Ariana Grande I see is playing Glinda. How is it going? Really well, really really well. We're having

really good days and we're getting a lot done. they're long days because there's lots to do but um but i'm enjoying myself i really am yeah and when can we expect it uh christmas 2024 christmas okay wow that sounds like a pretty that's going to be a blockbuster as well i am sure um you you came out as bisexual last year how significant was that for you? If you want to talk us through the decision and reaction. I think I just wanted to not hide another aspect of myself that was taking up room. And letting that go meant that there was more room to be creative

and more room to just be. It's meant that I can just sort of exist as myself fully. And I really enjoy doing that. Yeah. Did you feel a difference or an impact on your work from when you came out? I did. I think it's not that you care less about, you care more about the work and you care less about what everyone thinks about you.

That's what sort of happened to me. I think I just got to be myself as much as I could be. I think I show up now fully as who I am. And it's really refreshing. I think that's the thing I noticed the most about and it meant that I could walk into work and just be and now all of the energy is about my work and about the people I love. It's all in the right place now, you know? It's been so good to have you on. Your latest film is Luther, The Fallen Son

and I want to thank Cynthia Erivo for joining us today on Woman's Hour. Thank you very much. An absolute superstar in our midst there. I want to read some of your messages that have been coming in. I was asking you earlier, are you competitive with your partners? Talking about Cynthia Erivo's working out at 3.40am. But did you see the Princess of Wales? She beat her husband,

Prince William, on a spinning class. It's on the front of all the papers. So I asked you, are you competitive? Here's some. My husband and I have competitive who is the most tired sessions? That's Elaine. Thanks, Elaine. And you see Paul says my wife and I are both archers. She's much better than me and has the

medals to prove it. My partner and I are both archers. She's much better than me and has the medals to prove it. My partner and I are not competitive in the slightest, says another. I get so much joy from him doing well at something and vice versa that I don't feel the need to one up him. It's nice that we're both good and bad at different things. On we go, Melanie. I met my partner a year ago playing tennis and board games. It has been a joyful, competitive aspect of our relationship. So much so that the day after we got married this July

congratulations we're planning a newlywed tennis match. Competition between us stays fun and healthy in large part because we're closely matched. Let me see one more from Joe.

My husband and I try and beat each other in Wordle and the Daily Blossom Word Challenge every day. It's good fun. Most of you are competitive, just having a quick look down here.

I don't know, it doesn't really surprise me. 84844 if you want to get in touch. All right, I want to move on to, I suppose, a very stark question, really. Would you want to know if you were likely to get cancer? Journalist Hilary Osborne was diagnosed with breast cancer last year. She's currently recovering from a double mastectomy,

but she regrets not finding out whether she had the faulty bracket 2 genes. You might have heard of those before being diagnosed. Australian comedian Michelle Brazier has been told by doctors she has a 97% chance of developing either bowel, stomach, pancreatic or ovarian cancer. Her show about her diagnosis, Average Bear, is on at the Soho Theatre from the 6th to the 11th of March. So how do you face the stark reality of living with a hereditary, potentially life-shortening illness?

Is it better to find out or not? I have a feeling you might have something to say about this as well. 8-4-8-4-4. I'm glad to say that have something to say about this as well. 84844. I'm glad to say that Hilary and Michelle both join me now in the Woman's Hour studio. Good morning. Good morning. Lovely to have both of you with us. And Hilary, first off, because I know you're recovering,

how are you doing? Oh, I'm fine, thank you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, everyone says it's a rollercoaster, having cancer, and it's a cliche, but it's absolutely true so I have really good days I get good news and then there's quite often some bad news to follow but I'm on the up at the moment definitely. So I kind of led a little bit with some of your story but how did you find out you had breast cancer? Well I I'd been having some pain um kind of around my chest and um I decided it was to do

with riding my bike or um exercise so I ignored it for a little while and then one day I thought it really does hurt and started prodding around and I thought oh that feels a bit strange and so um I felt a lump but I'd had an an abscess 12 years ago when I had my son. I'd had mastitis when I breastfed him and it developed. So I'd had some scar tissue there. So I'd always been able to feel something, but this did feel different. So I phoned the doctor and they saw me straight away, which was brilliant. They were quite relaxed because my lymph nodes felt okay,

but they referred me to the cancer specialist, well, the Macmillan Cancer Hospital, and I went there the next week. I wasn't really worried. The doctor who saw me, first of all, didn't seem very worried. They sent me for a mammogram, had the mammogram, and then went for an ultrasound. And that's when they started saying, oh, there's something not right.

But yeah, I really had no idea that's what it was. I wasn't concerned. It was probably a little bit silly of me. But, you know, these things, they're so wrapped up in a myriad of emotions and history, but you had reason to believe that potentially you could be at higher risk for breast cancer. Yeah, that's right. My mum died when I was just before I was 10 and so she was in her mid-30s, which is a signal that it's an inherited cancer. My great-grandma on her side as well had died of breast cancer, although we weren't entirely sure if that was the case a few years ago. So I had been to be checked out when I had the abscess. My grandma had been quite insistent that I push the doctors and went and spoke to

someone. But I don't know what went went wrong but they asked me about my grandma they asked me about my grandma's sister they were all fine my grandma lived to into her 90s so um they they seemed quite relaxed about the the possibility of it being genetic I wasn't offered a blood test at the time and then I just got on with my life really and it didn't really occur to me to to kind of push for one yeah and nobody had suggested it to you no no and and as I when I wrote the piece I mentioned that I'd seen all the Angelina Jolie story I mean that was an amazing story when she came out and said that she'd gone down that track and because she had the bracket genes and had decided to have a mastectomy. And I think afterwards also have her ovaries removed.

Yeah, that's right. And so it was a real talking point. And I think I had conversations with people about what she'd done. But still no one had said, well, why don't you go and get yourself checked out? And so I just didn't really think to do it. And I should say for our listeners, the NHS advice is to speak to a GP. If cancer runs in your family, if you're worried that you may get it too,

and they'll be able to advise you. But I'm just wondering, as you tell that story, I have huge empathy for you. I mean, how do you feel when you look back on that sequence of events? I suppose, I mean, I've forgiven myself for not doing anything because I think I if the GP had or someone had said to me look I've made an appointment for you next week to come in and have this test come and do it I would have done it it wasn't that I was avoiding actually finding out it was just that life was just kind of going on and it didn't occur to me

but obviously when I when I found out that I had it my tumour was five centimetres and I went into an absolute spiral of thinking it must have spread it must have and I I had a couple of weeks where I was just beside myself and and I would have saved myself that pain if I'd been in the cycle of having regular checkups. It would have been caught a lot earlier if I'd been in the cycle of having regular checkups. I might not have had to have such aggressive treatment. I think I'd still be in the same position I am now where I've had the mastectomy.

But yeah, I would have saved myself a lot of heartache if I'd known about it. Yes, and let us not forget that the pandemic was in the middle of all that as well. But I would have saved myself a lot of heartache if I'd known about it. And let us not forget that the pandemic was in the middle of all that as well. Let me come to you, Michelle. How did you find out that you have genes that I have that 97%? Is that a real figure that somebody gave you that you might get cancer? A real figure, which, listen, what a treat to hear.

I found out my father passed away, he was diagnosed with cancer, and he died a week later, which was a big surprise. But he was, you know, he was he wasn't an old man by any stretch of the imagination, but he wasn't a very healthy man. So we sort of thought, okay, you know, that's fine. But my brother got cancer when he was 42. And he passed away within a year as well. I'm sorry. Thank you. That's fine. But my brother got cancer when he was 42 and he passed away within a year as well. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. That's all right. But, you know, it just got me thinking.

And my sister had precancerous polyps in her stomach lining. And so it just sort of all added up, I suppose. And I'm very proactive about my health. I'm, you know, I'm here for as much time as I can have. So I went to my GP and I explained, you know, this is my family history. Do I need to get checked for anything? I'm a lot younger than my brother and sister. So I've got a headstart. I'd love to use it. And they referred me to a genetic counselor. And yeah, they told me, yeah, it's a 97% chance. But that doesn't mean, you know, it doesn't have to be doom or gloom. It doesn't have

to mean that I'll get cancer and I'll die. It just means maybe I'll get cancer and it will be caught. So how, oh, so and it will be caught because I was about to say, how do you rationalize that or live with it? Through stories. I mean, that's why I do what I do. I've always been an actor, but I started telling my own stories because I wanted other people to hear those stories and, you know, maybe be luckier than yourself and be able to know that they might need to get into a cycle of that because we don't know how to advocate for ourselves and I think that it's really difficult to know what to ask for it can be really scary and intimidating so I think I just bring humor to it and I just want to share my story with as many people as I can so they don't feel alone and they don't feel clueless.

And I have read that you mentioned you hoped to be here for a long time, but you know you're here for a good time. Yes. Well, I mean, if I, you know, my show's called Average Bear. The whole question is, if you found out you had less time than the average bear, how would you spend it? And how are you spending it? Well, I'm in London and I live in Melbourne. I'm having a great time over the BBC. I mean, I work in film and television. I have a wonderful life. I'm so lucky to have done that. But I'm but I've also built

that, you know, I work really hard. I write my own things. And I just kept making noise until the industry looked at me and went, All right, no, she is she's good enough. Okay, great. And I just kept making noise until the industry looked at me and went, all right, no, she's good enough. Okay, great. And I just don't waste my time. I want to enjoy it. And I try not to be afraid of things. And I try to really embrace everything that I can, whether that's, you know, a piece of toast or patting a dog or coming to London to do a show at Soho Theatre. And what about, I don't know, processed meat, a couple of drinks? Processed meat, no. Couple of drinks, yes. You have to draw your line somewhere. Because that's the other thing is like you have to have treats.

Not that alcohol is necessarily a treat. That's a whole cultural thing to unpack. But I think there's just there's part of me that rationalizes, okay, well, you go to yoga, yoga in the morning, whiskey in the evening, you know, balance it out as best you can. I get checked as much as I possibly can. And I really advocate for myself. And I'm lucky that I'm a confident person, I can do that. But yeah, it's just I think it's about balance. I'm coming back to you, Hilary, because you've had a double mastectomy. Is the fear gone? I'm just picking up on one thing that Michelle mentioned there to not live in fear. No, I think I'm doing everything I can to stop it coming back and to stop a separate instance of the disease coming back.

But I mean, ultimately, there's only so much you can do. And all of these things, there's still percentage chances that I could get it again. So it is about trying to sort of put those in perspective. And I think I will probably be afraid for a long time that I'm going to go through this again. But again, it does, it's not stopped me wanting to do things because now I think, well, I've got to do that now. You also have at least one boy, I know from what you've said, and there is a chance, I suppose, that your child may carry the gene. Has your thinking changed for him or her than for yourself? Yeah, and it's not, I've got a a son so I don't have to worry about breast well I do have to worry about breast cancer because men can get breast cancer he's also got a higher chance of having pancreatic cancer than the general population so obviously that does cause

me quite a lot of concern and he won't be able to be tested on the NHS until he's an adult so at that point we'll have to have a conversation with him about whether he wants to have that. It's a big deal. It's a big deal. And Michelle, what advice would you have to other people that might have family members or are worried to find out their possibilities? It's absolutely up to you if you want the information or you don't want the information. But I personally think it can be really freeing. And either way, just knowing that it could be true, I think can make you appreciate life more. So regardless, I think just spend your time wisely, because even if you don't have the gene, you could be hit by a bus. Michelle Brazier, thank you so much for coming in. Also with

Hilary Osborne, wish you all the best in your recovery. Woman's Hour is back tomorrow with Anita Rani at 10 o'clock. One of her guests will be Jo Cheetham, an unlikely activist who found herself at the helm of the campaign to get rid of page three.

Remember that. And don't forget, if you miss any of our programmes, you can listen on BBC Sounds. Just want to give the last words to our listeners. I was asking about competitive partners, you know.

I'm very competitive with my partner, Quiz Shows on TV, Sudoku, Wordle, you name it, I'm on it. Also, Rachel getting in touch saying she had no idea that she carried the gene. She really wishes

that she had known before she was diagnosed with breast cancer at 44. We're thinking of you, Rachel. Thanks so much for getting in touch. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Please, I beg you in the name of God, I need some assistance from you.

Who is worthy of our trust? I just thought this is very, very shady and there's something definitely wrong about this. He didn't believe me. I said, well, I'm not a schemer. I'm not a bad person. Join me, Matthew Side, for the latest season of my BBC Radio 4 podcast, Sideways. Seven new stories of seeing the world differently and the ideas that shape our lives.

I need to figure out a way to really compensate him or else I'm going to be the scammer that I accused him of being. Sideways on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.