Woman's Hour - Daisy Edgar-Jones, Gisèle Pelicot, Trampolinist Bryony Page

Episode Date: December 20, 2024

Daisy Edgar-Jones and her co-star Paul Mescal rocketed into the public gaze in the BBC adaptation of Sally Rooney’s novel Normal People. Following a couple of notable film performances Daisy is now on stage as the formidable, if unhappy, Maggie in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. She joins Anita Rani live in the Woman’s Hour studio.It's the rape trial that has shocked the world. Gisèle Pelicot's ex-husband Dominique was sentenced yesterday to 20 years in prison for her rape, alongside 50 other men. We hear Gisèle's own words, from the BBC's Andrew Harding who has covered the trial from the beginning, and French journalist and founder of The Women's Voices website Cynthia Illouz. Anita then speaks to Dr Caroline Copeland, senior lecturer in pharmacology and toxicology at King’s College London, about the term chemical submission, which has gained more recognition during the trial.Hundreds of women in labour are being diverted from their birth hospital of choice. Exclusive research done by the Health Service Journal found some were sent hundreds of miles from home to different hospital Trusts. The main reason was because of staff shortages or because midwifery teams lacked the right skill-mix for a delivery to be safe for the baby and the mother. Anita is joined by Health Service Journal Senior Correspondent Emily Townsend who carried out this investigation and Gill Walton, Chief Executive of the Royal College of Midwives, to discuss.Bryony Page, Olympic medallist and trailblazer for British gymnastics, made history at the Paris 2024 Olympics by winning Team GB’s first ever trampoline gold. Known for her resilience and determination, she reflects with Anita on the achievements and challenges of her career, and shares her hopes for the Los Angeles Olympics in 2028.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. We have a sprinkling of stardust on the programme today. Actor Daisy Edgar-Jones will be gracing the studio to tell me all about her starring role as Maggie in a new stage adaptation of Tennessee Williams, A Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, the hottest ticket in town. And a sporting hero,

gold medal winning, trampolining Olympian, Bryony Page on her life after Paris. So if you have any questions for the two of them, you can always get in touch with the programme in the usual way, the text number 84844. You can email me via our website. You can also contact us on WhatsApp. It's 03700 100 444. But first. That is the predominantly female crowd gathered outside the court in Avignon yesterday in support of Giselle Pellicot. They are chanting shame changes sides. It's the rape trial that has shocked the world. And this morning on the front cover of all the papers is the face of the woman at the centre of it, Giselle.

With the mirror describing her as the world's bravest woman and the Guardian quoting her, I wanted all of society to be a witness. At the very beginning of this trial, she waived her right to anonymity, saying she wanted the shame to change sides. The shame is not hers. It belongs to the 51 men who have now been convicted of violating her. The ordinary, everyday men, including her husband, who orchestrated the horrific 10-year ordeal. And if you would like to share your thoughts and feelings about this shocking case and about Giselle Pellico with us this morning, then our text number is 84844. Let's hear a clip of Giselle's statement that she gave outside court yesterday.

I have never regretted this decision. I have confidence now in our capacity collectively to find a better future in which men and women alike can live harmoniously together with respect and mutual understanding. She went on to say this trial was a very difficult ordeal. I think first of all of my three children, David, Caroline and Florian. I also think of my grandchildren because they are the future and it is also for them that I have led this fight

as well as my daughters-in-law, Aurore and Celine. I also think of all the other families affected by this tragedy. Well, joining me live from Paris to discuss it is BBC correspondent Andrew Harding. Andrew, you've been there from the beginning of this case. Let's get your reflections on the remarkable woman, Giselle Pellico. Well, good morning indeed. I'm actually just outside Mazon, the home village of the Pellicos, and talking to people at the market here. But Giselle herself, from the start,

that first day when she arrived in court behind those dark glasses, this really, you know, traumatized figure. But it was the first time that anyone had seen her or heard her name. It was such a shock to see her there and then to see her evolve over the course of those four months from this really traumatized figure into this extraordinary, serene, confident icon who spoke so movingly about shame changing sides. What struck me most about her, I think, was her humility. She often would say she didn't want to be an activist and she didn't want to make men and women fall out with each other. In fact, in that speech she just quoted from earlier, she spoke at the end about how she really wanted men and women

to trust each other again and to bring people together. She said that she will give an interview or two, I think, in the coming weeks and months, but she doesn't want to play that long-term role of an activist. She wants to return to the very simple life that she had before, looking after her grandchildren, looking after her family, and retreat back into the privacy that, of course, she abandoned with such courage for the course of this trial. And you started by saying you're in Mazon, and you've been getting the reaction of people in the small town, in the market. What have they been saying to you? I've just been speaking to a woman, an architect, who is selling some cookies and biscuits, actually, to support a dance trip to the US.

And she was talking about how Giselle was this incredible inspiration, how she'd been discussing with her 20-year-old son about what the trial meant regarding consent, regarding how women should be treated. And she felt that although plenty of people in France will shrug and will move on after this case, and that it will be in some quarters forgotten or sidelined, she felt that those kind of conversations that were inevitably happening inside families would have a real impact for a long time. I think we should discuss next the men who have been convicted of a range of offences.

People are saying, they're describing them as Monsieur Tout-le-Monde, roughly translated as the everyman. Who are they? So they're a range, very hard to pin down. They're ages from 27 to 74. They have all sorts of jobs. I spoke to a couple of them, actually interviewed them. One of them was a nurse. One of them had been a butcher. And there are several firemen. There are teachers. There's journalists, civil servants, and so on. Most of them have children, half of them in relationships. A quarter of them talked about being abused as children, sexually abused, bullied and so on,

and linked that to what had happened to them. And I think importantly, 35 of the 50, apart from Mr. Pellico himself, pled not guilty and insisted right through the case and to the bitter end that they had been tricked into rape basically although some of them admitted to raping most said that they genuinely thought they were going to indulge a couple's sexual fantasy that both Mr and Mrs Pellico had been in on this and that this was a fantasy of theirs, that Giselle would be pretending to be asleep or would be asleep. And so these issues of consent and how consent can be secured

is something that a lot of them said they'd only really learnt about during the course of the trial. So deep ignorance here about what consent really means, but also a real sort of education, not just for those men, but I think for so many men in France. I mean, even though we know rapists are ordinary men, it's so hard to reconcile that it's such a cross section of society and it's men who lived within that tiny community. You said that you'd spoken to some of them. What did they say to you? Well, two of them, actually, that I spoke to got eight-year sentences.

One of them, the nurse, an uncle Redouane, is going to appeal, along with a couple of others so far. It may be that more appeal. The other man, Mr Delville, who was a butcher, he very much stuck to that line that he thought he was indulging in the Pellico's fantasy, but that pretty much immediately after he'd left the house, he realised that what he'd done was not right, that when he'd been arrested, he'd immediately admitted his guilt and said he had raped her and wanted to apologise. It doesn't look like he's going to be appealing his verdict, but we'll have to see. There were a range of sentences given. Can you tell us a bit about that? So French law is pretty strict on this, and it does feel like the judges followed the law. There's frustration, of course, that the maximum for rape is 20 years. And so Mr.

Pellico, Dominic Pellico, despite all the kind of the litany of rapes and abuses that he carried out, could only get the maximum 20 years, which means he could actually be out having served four years and, you know, half the time taken off for good behavior he could be out relatively soon before he's maybe even 80 years old or in his early 80s and so there is i think a sense that perhaps that's wrong that needs changing as for the others well at the moment um six of them as i understand it are out of prison uh three of them waiting to to be seen whether they may have to go to prison. The others actually had already served enough time in the wait for the trial, so they're out for good, they're free.

The others, a range of sentencing, some three, four, five years, some up to 15 or 16 because they went multiple times to rape Giselle Pellico. They returned to the house up to six times. I mean, how have these sentences been received by the greater public? Some campaigners have said they're not long enough, but how do they fit in with what generally happens in rape trials in France? As I say, I think the judges were pretty much following the guidelines. There was frustration outside the court at some of those sentences, particularly when some of the

men were actually set free. And one of them I saw walking through the crowd and almost having to be rescued by the police because there was so much anger that any of these men could be allowed out. But there is a general respect here for the system of justice, for the rule of law. And I think most French people and frankly, most of the accused lawyers were saying, you know, they didn't get exactly what the prosecution had asked for. And generally, they got slightly less. But, you know, those are pretty much the rules. And I think most of France will accept them and move on.

Lots of dark and chilling details about this case coming out, including that his depravity extended, as Dominique Pellico's, beyond his wife and his daughter. Caroline Dorian was heard shouting in court, I'll never see you again. You'll die alone like a dog. Yes, so there were two photos found on that huge cache of videos and photos in Dominique Pellico's home. Two of them were of Caroline lying in a bed with underwear on that were not her own. She was in a strange position. She is convinced that she was drugged and raped by her

father. Her father, who, remember, has denied absolutely everything until the proof was incontrovertible, has insisted he did not rape his daughter. But there are clearly grounds to suspect him of that. Many people have expressed deep sympathy for Caroline because she is in this hell now at least her mother has proof of what happened to her but Caroline is in this dreadful situation where she does not know and perhaps will never know what her father did to her

and so she's become quite an active campaigner on the issue of drug facilitated rape and you can see her anguish and her anger in court. And you can also see, frankly, the trauma within the family. I think there are divisions and tensions, as you can expect in any family, that's been through such agonies. And there are other potential cases that Dominique Pellico has been alleged to have been involved with that are now getting more attention. Is that right? Exactly. I mean, we interviewed the psychiatrist who'd assessed Pellico has been alleged to have been involved with that are now getting more attention. Is that right?

Exactly. I mean, we interviewed the psychiatrist who'd assessed Pellico and he made it very clear that you don't just suddenly start drugging and raping your wife in retirement and that there was clearly a build-up to this that could have been going on for many, many years. And we now have DNA evidence confirming that in 1999, Dominique Pellico assaulted a young woman in Paris. There was a drop of blood found at the scene, and that has now been linked to him. He's admitted to assaulting her, but not to attempted rape. But she says it was an attempted

rape. And now there is a cold case that's being reopened from 1991 of another woman, almost identical circumstances, a young estate agent. She was raped and murdered. And the strong suspicion is that this was one of Dominique Pellico's earlier crimes, even though he has again denied that. Andrew, if you could just stay right there for a moment. I'm also joined this morning by Cynthia Allouz, who's a journalist and academic and founder of the Women's Voices. Cynthia, you were in court yesterday.

Do you see this as a pivotal moment or a watershed moment for feminism in France? Yes, absolutely. As you mentioned, at least all the men were convicted. They received sentences. So most of them were sentenced for rape, aggravated rape. Here in France, as you mentioned, the maximum is 20 years with those aggravated circumstances. And we were discussing also the range of conviction and sentences.

I was inside the court, but outside there were feminist groups. I see them shout and I know that what is frustrating that the men receive less severe sentences that are asked by the prosecution. But on the other hand, when I discussed with the lawyers yesterday, they were saying that the sentences are more important due to the public eye and the feminist movement. So yes, I really think that it will be setting a precedent for future cases. We're getting messages from our listeners this morning reflecting on what's happening. I'm just going to read a couple out and it'd be interesting to know the sorts of conversations that are happening amongst women in France. Becca in Cambridge has said, I'm in total awe of Giselle Pellico's awe-inspiring bravery to put her head above

the parapet and call out this horrific behaviour, not just for herself, but for the bigger picture of female victims of rape and other non-consensual attacks is so inspiring and humbling. I will aim to take some of her sheer grace into the rest of my day. May she live with a sense of peace and safety for the rest of her days. What are the conversations taking place amongst people outside the court and more generally in France? Yes, you know, everyone seeing Giselle Pellico as really a feminist icon. Yesterday, everyone put messages on social media to thank her, to thank her for her courage because she went into the public eyes, sharing her story, but also sharing disturbing images

and the detail of the horrific, the horrible act that she has been through. She really brings the topic in the forefront of the news, raising awareness about sexual violence and how to fight violence against women. So every woman here in France really want to thank her. And I think she, you know, having for now an iconic feminist is very important because most of the cases there is no proof. And here this is quite a historic case with so many proof, more than 20,000 proof videos, pictures and messages.

So for the first time, also, we have the men involved. They're not discussing if the act happened or not because of those proofs. So I'm pretty sure that almost all families in France discussed this case. So it's raising really a concern about sexual violence. Even Emmanuel Macron tweeted this morning. And lots of conversations taking place, particularly amongst feminists, about the sentencing. But also campaigners said that this case proved the need for consent to be built into France's rape laws, as in other European countries. What do you think about that? I'm not so sure I discussed with both sides. I'm not a lawyer. Obviously, what we want is to protect more the victim.

You know, during this trial, a lot of men tried to explain that they did not intend to rape. When we discussed this topic, lawyers or even feminists are not really agree about how to do so because we have a strict law about rape here and we don't want to diminish the protection regarding women. So it's really an ongoing topic and we have to be very careful if we are modifying the law in the future. And do you think, you said that Macron has spoken out about it on a political level, do you think change is coming? You know, I hope so. You know, in every crisis, women are not really present, whether it's political or economical things. We change many times of government every time this is a topic, saying that women are not really present into the discussion. Here, Emmanuel Macron, you know, he said he wanted to put gender equality as a pivotal topic of his term.

But a lot of feminist organizations are asking for much more money and also a full minister for those questions. So we have a lot to do. It's very important that all men, politics and all the population are really motivated to change this because otherwise we're continuing having those kind of cases. Thank you, Cynthia. Andrew, outside of court yesterday when Giselle Pellicot made her statement, she also thanked all the people who supported her, the lawyers and the journalists who covered the case. She's been dignified and generous throughout this trial. You've been covering it for months. What's the impact been on you?

Well, I think for anybody who sat in that courtroom and watched those graphic videos, they're something that cannot be forgotten. The sights and the sounds were extraordinary. But what I think I've taken from this case is something very positive, that actually as a journalist, you know, often you explore these very grim stories and you feel the need to tell people about them and inform people, but without any great sense that you're part of some bigger process. And yet in this case, I think the act of doing what Giselle Pellico wanted,

which is to spread this message and to expose what happened there, feels like being part of something incredibly important, that this is a case that really can change society. expose what happened there, feels like being part of something incredibly important. That this is a case that really can change society and that we play a role in that. And I think that for a lot of us who've sat through so much of this trial, that has felt very inspiring and very motivating. Andrew, thank you. Andrew Harding, BBC correspondent and journalist.

Cynthia Illouz, thanks to both of you. 84844 is the number to text. Now, the term chemical submission has been discussed a lot in this case. And joining me to discuss this and the implications this case might have here in the UK is Dr Caroline Copeland, a senior lecturer in pharmacology and toxicology at King's College London. Caroline, welcome to the programme. Can you explain what chemical submission is? So this is a relatively new term. It's not listed specifically in the UK's drug facilitated crime descriptions. And it's even a fairly new term in France as well, from what I can see. And it's the use of drugs to render somebody incapacitated. It's a term that's not used here. What do we use here instead?

So we have, people will have heard of spiking of drinks, date vape drinks, which comes under the broader umbrella of drug facilitated crime. And this is where the chemical submission term would probably fall under as well in the UK. According to the National Agency for Medicine Safety in France, the use of drugs to perpetuate sexual assaults has been on the rise over the past 20 years. Why do you think that is? And is it the same here? So I think probably the larger proportion of those crimes is going to be those drink spikings, the date rape spikings as well. And looking at statistics in the UK, that's similarly what's been happening here. We now have good awareness, I think, that drink spiking is on the rise here. And we have, unfortunately, had to introduce measures such as things as people not leaving drinks unattended and having the covers for the cups to try and stop that. How much of that drug-facilitated crime is the chemical submission

in terms of the Giselle Pellicott case? We don't know those figures and it's very hard to pull those out. And even in the case, even in this Pellicott case, it wasn't Giselle herself who realised what was happening and reported this to the police it was found on on the husband's hard drive because he'd been caught upskirting in a supermarket so in terms of trying to understand the UK prevalence of this type of case it's very difficult to do not just even in the UK even in France as well. But she is said to have known that something

was wrong with her. She even went to the doctors, but she happened to go alongside her husband. So in terms of medical intervention in a case like this, how feasible is that? Like, what can medical experts be looking for? This is incredibly tough. So you could say to GPs to have a checklist of, do you think that this person might be at risk of a chemical submission or drug facilitated crime? It might be things like, are they getting through their prescription too quickly? From the sounds of it, the prescription medicines, I don't know where they came from, but if they were prescribed to either Dominique or Giselle, they would be getting through them at a faster rate than you would expect them to for the amount of sedation that it sounds like Giselle was suffering. And, sorry, yes, carry on. So I was

going to say, but you could, it's possible to be able to identify people who might be at risk of chemical submission from certain demographics. But as highlighted in this case here, this is a middle class woman in her 60s that might not necessarily be recognised by a GP as someone at risk of this. A strand of hair test, can we ask about that? Is that the protocol to discover something like this has happened and how easy is that test to do? Hair testing is good to see long-term drug use and can be used to detect a wide variety of substances. Over several years drugs get deposited in the hair and can be tested for. And you can cut the hair up into sections to actually see when was the drug introduced and maybe when did it stop as well over time.

And how much do people here need to be worried? Some people are concerned about the issue of copycats. So it's difficult for me to say how worried should people be. And I think the best advice would be for people to be vigilant. And if they feel that something is wrong to to speak to whoever they feel comfortable speaking to, be that friends or family members or their health health providers as well. What we do think is that this is a very isolated and a very unusual incident, as demonstrated by the huge press attention on it. It is very unusual for something to have happened to this extent and for this long time. Caroline, thank you. That's Caroline Copeland, Senior Lecturer in Pharmacology and Toxicology. And I just want to finish this

conversation with some more of Giselle Pellico's words from her statement yesterday. She said, finally, I think of the unrecognised victims whose stories often remain in the shadows. I want you to know that we share the same fight. And there are support links on the BBC's Action Line website if you've been affected by anything you've heard. And if you would like to get in touch with the programme, do so in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email me via our website as well. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, Daisy Edgar-Jones will be a familiar name to most of you. She and her co-star Paul Mescal rocketed into the public gaze in the television adaptation of Sally Rooney's much loved Normal People, the BBC lockdown hit, which has had an astonishing 62.7 million views. The two of them gave performances that captured many people's hearts and imaginations.

Since then, she's appeared in a number of well-known films, including Where the Crawdads Sing and more recently Twisters. And now she's back at the Almeida Theatre in London playing Maggie in A Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, Tennessee Williams' play set during a birthday party for a Mississippi plantation owner. Welcome back to Woman's Hour, Daisy. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It is wonderful to have you here.

Maggie, complex character. Tell us a bit about her. Who is she? Yes, Maggie. So Maggie is one of the most incredible characters I think I've ever read on the page. She is married to Brick Pollitt, who is the son of Big Daddy, whose party you mentioned. And yeah, this kind of play for Maggie, she is this ferocious, desperate, outspoken woman who's trying to survive in this relationship that is kind of failing. And it's, yeah, it's kind of a very powerful, powerful character. I want to say congratulations, because I came to see you on Monday night. And it's a very powerful performance. Thank you. About the whole cast, all of you. It's quite, it's electric. What's she like to play? Do you know what? I'm, she's quite an interesting character to inhabit every night, because she's, she's sort of the most outspoken, ferocious, angry person I've occupied.

I often play characters that are quite introspective and vulnerable and Maggie has all of that. But at the point that we meet her, she is this, she says it multiple times, I feel like a cat on a hot tin roof. What does she mean by that? She's sort of been pushed to the end of her tether, really. She's been living with this man who barely speaks to her because he's sort of punishing her for something that has happened the year before. And so she is this kind of bag of nerves

that is trying to just be heard and to be listened to. And she's all survival. And Tennessee talks about the kind of play and the particularly the conversation between Maggie and Brick is a feverish debate between the outcrying heart and the dying heart and Maggie is outcrying and Brick sort of at that point he's he's sort of drinking himself into oblivion and so yeah she's I definitely um I need to sort of wind down after each night. I bet you do I mean it's the first act of the play lasts about an hour. And as you said there, it's a conversation,

well, this very tense conversation between Brick, your husband, who's on stage with you, played amazingly by Kingsley Bernardier. But he's just quietly getting drunk. It's essentially you. It's a monologue. Yeah. I mean, a lot of lines. I know. I think a lot of actresses are drawn to this part because I think initially you go oh my gosh I get to speak for particular like 55 minutes basically um but then there's also that moment

in rehearsals where you go oh my goodness I have to speak for 55 minutes how is this gonna feel how am I gonna do it how am I gonna remember do it? How am I going to remember everything? And how do you? I think for me, I really, I'm loving the chance to be able to speak so much. I think, you know, a lot of my screen characters are often quite, like I said, introspective. They're quiet. They're watching. They're sort of, whereas Maggie, she is taking control. She is wanting to be heard.

And I think it's so amazing that Tennessee, he writes these women that are so complicated and deep and, yeah, full of life. And I think it's so exciting that, yeah, he wrote that character in the 50s and she still feels modern, you know, today. I think we should hear some of it. Let's hear the two of you in the midst of an uncomfortable conversation

when we first meet you on stage. You kept in good shape though. You think so Maggie? I always thought drinking men lost their looks but I was plainly mistaken. My thanks Maggie. You're the only drinking man I know that it never seems to put fat on. I'm getting softer Maggie. Well sooner or later it's bound to put fat on. I'm getting softer, Maggie. Well, sooner or later, it's bound to soften you up. I was just beginning to soften up, Skipper, when... I'm sorry. I never could keep my fingers off a sore.

I wish you would lose your looks. If you did, it would make the martyrdom of St. Maggie a little more bearable. But no such goddamn luck. It's taking me right back there. I mean, she's not particularly, I wouldn't describe her as particularly likable. She's quite spiky, but as the play develops, you can't help but have huge sympathy for her

because she's so lonely, married to Brick. Yeah. Oh, it's interesting you say that. I think a large amount of the characters, they are hard to like. At the point that we meet them, they're all so fraught. They've been through so much. And, you know, I think the original version that came out in the 50s when it was first debuted they

they wanted a happier ending so um Tennessee changed the ending for that for that 50s audience um but later on he he republished it with the with the with the darker ending because I think he wants to he wants it to be confronting and and and he talks about it I actually wrote the quote down because I thought it was interesting but go on he said vitality is the hero of the play the character you can root for is not a person but a quality in people that makes them want to survive and Maggie is that you you know it's hard to like her at times because she's ferocious and she's spiky and she's angry and she's tense but she she wants to survive. And I think that is admirable in a way, you know.

Yeah, it's hard to like her, but I think actually as a woman, you can really relate to her. Totally. It is about survival. Yeah. And she is, you know, I mean, Christmas is coming. People are going to be getting together with their families. This is quite a dysfunctional one.

Yeah, that's one way of putting it. And big theme, love, unfulfilled love and the and lost it's it's a powerful thing because it's not just about the maggie's love that's thwarted by brick it's about uh big mama's love for big daddy yeah um he said she says i did love you i even loved your hate and your hardness and then there's skip's love for Brick, Brick's love for Skip. Yeah. And this version is quite interesting because we have Skipper on stage. We have a sort of, the ghost of Skipper actually present in the room,

which I think really adds a lot of depth to Brick's journey. Because again, Brick, it could be a character you could struggle to like because he's ignoring this woman who's trying to be heard. But actually he's deeply sad. He's going through grief.

He is going through identity and figuring out who he is and you know and so yeah you you sort of you root for everybody but you also it's hard to relate to a lot of that they've got so much complexity and darkness and realness about them which is why Tennessee is so amazing yeah and it's it's a very satisfying uh theatrical experience when you're in the audience. Another character is the piano that's on stage that Skipper is playing brilliantly and the music's very tense. And you have to choreograph on that piano. I did think you were very good.

Was it nerve-wracking getting up there, having to do all the kind of... Well, yes. I mean, we spoke about it before, but I broke my toe on day two of rehearsals, which was hilarious. Now I can laugh about it. At the time, less so, we were playing a warm-up ball game. And I think we started at 10 a.m. And at 10.05, I was on the way to A&E with a toe that was not the right shape.

And I was like, hmm, it's interesting because Brick in the play is wearing a cast with a crutch. And I was like, Brick and Maggie both going to be hobbling around the stage. They're so and there's nothing you can do about it yes I just I couldn't walk on it so we found a lot of the physicality sort of in discussion and you know I mean I was still able to do parts of it but it was I think what's so amazing about Rebecca Frecknell who's our director I mean she she's incredible and she's she's sort of done so many of these tendencies this is her third she did streetcar she did summer and smoke and you know um what she does really

well is she breaks she breaks it out of the traditional space you know that our set is very um this stark sort of tin uh room it's like you you really see the characters on this tin roof really in a way and and it makes you as an audience experience their psychological their psychological journey more than perhaps the reality of it and so yes we we have these moments where I I sort of Maggie becomes this cat-like figure this sort of this this kind of tactical woman who's trying to to work out her next play and so having that kind of space of the piano and she has this great line where she goes, who are you? And she says, I'm Maggie the cat and being able to get on the piano and you arch your back.

Yes. And it's magnificent. Cat like. You mentioned Streetcar Named Desire that stars Paul Muskell. Did you get on the phone to him and say, this has come my way? Yeah. I mean, I saw that as well. Also extraordinary. Phenomenal. And I was I was hanging out with Paul a lot while he was he was rehearsing and i remember him saying rebecca that our director is one of the most incredible directors he'd ever worked with so i i'd been dying to work with her and actually i was with paul when i got the call for the job i i got a call on my birthday saying would you like to play where were you i was in ireland i was in cork um for the film festival there and um it was

really special because i i'd been wanting to go back to the Almeida. It was the last play I did was there just before COVID, just before normal people came out. And so it feels really full circle to be here again, five years later, taking on a role like Maggie with a director like Rebecca in that space, I feel. So yeah, it's really magical. It is magical and it is wonderful to watch your ascent as well,

both of you, but to have you here and to see that you're on stage taking on this role. We've done a Christmas Day special programme all about comfort and comfort zone and people stepping out of their comfort zone. How was it for you? How do you kind of prepare yourself? I mean, so much of your life is public now. You have millions of followers on social media.

You've walked the red carpet, met Gala, you know, awards, all the rest of it. How do you deal with that? All of the fame? Yeah, I think it's funny because stepping out on that stage again, when I was doing my first warm up, I really was brought back to five years ago when I did a play called Albion and the Almeida. And it was just before lockdown, just before my life really changed. And everyone's dead during COVID, but mine changed in the way that, you know, I became well known. And so I was really like, gosh, what a funny thing.

You know, people will come to this play with a different expectation of me and there is a lot more pressure. And, you know, how have I changed and have I? And honestly, I stood there going, I haven't changed. I I'm still, you know, I'm still who I am. When I was on this stage five years ago, I'm just, you know, a bit older, a bit more weathered. Hardly. I think the thing that I love about theatre and love about what I do is it takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage to step out on that stage and give your performance.

And I think that exchange between audience and actor is so beautiful because that performance can only live and breathe in that one moment and then it's done, you know. Yeah, and you're very lucky if you get to experience it. You haven't changed, but the world around you has changed, Daisy. You know, you're hanging out with all the kind of, you know, Paul Muskell, the Andrew Garfields of the world. You're like Hollywood A-list.

And when you try and do something as simple as go to Glastonbury. my goodness how was that we were there Woman's Hour were you there yes Woman's Hour's been two years on the road you know and next year if you're there come and chat to us but how was that experience the best it's the best I mean I I love music festivals how do you deal with the fame though yeah I mean it is funny whenever me and Paul go out anywhere together which is just you know we're we're best friends and I've you know I've known Paul we knew each other before normal people before well we we met on normal people when we were just you know no one knew who we were and so it is so still so strange for us when we walk down Glastonbury and everyone's like oh my gosh um but yeah I mean I think I think the thing is if you you know because because Paul's so grounded and normal

and all my friends are and Andrew is too, you're able to just let it wash over you and enjoy the parts of it that are fun and try and ignore the bits that are surreal, if you know what I mean. Yeah, probably really important that you've got a crew. Yeah, a good crew, a good gang. And Christmas, what will you be up to? Christmas, I'll be with my family. I'm so excited. I get three days off from the play, so I'm going to try and recover from this cold and uh chill oh yeah recover from the cold there's a

lot of people around it's been an absolute pleasure to have you here and uh congratulations and come anytime thank you thank you uh daisy edgar jones there and uh it's on at the Almeida cat on a hot tin roof. 84844 is the number to text. Next, how hundreds of women in labour are being diverted from their birth hospital of choice. Exclusive research done by the Health Service Journal found some were sent hundreds of miles from home to different hospital trusts. The main reason was because of staff shortages or because midwifery teams lacked the right skill mix for a delivery to be safe for the baby and the mother. Well, joining me are Health Service Journal senior correspondent Emily Townsend, who carried out the investigation, and Jill Walton, chief executive of the Royal College of Midwives. Emily, I'm going to come to you first. Why did you investigate this issue of mothers seemingly being diverted during labour? Tell us what's going on. Thanks, Anita. So I carried out research by sending an FOI request to 120 trust and paternity units, asking them how many people were diverted from their chosen

place of birth to either have their baby or to receive further care while they're in labour. And the figures covered the first six months of this year. So we'd heard anecdotally that this was an issue, but the problem hadn't been properly quantified for several years. So the last time it was looked at nationally was 2016 and back then the figures were significantly lower, so around 400 diversions in a year. And this time we discovered almost 1,000 in half the time. How did you go about finding out this picture? How did you do

the research? So we spoke to, so we went to the various trusts, we sent in a freedom of information requests and we were looking at sort of how many women were diverted from their chosen place of birth to have their baby or to receive further care. So we then obviously once we had the figures we then went to the trust and asked them about various reasons for you know why why this was the case so various trusts came back to us and said that it was due to staffing so we had just over 500 incidents where women were diverted to other nhs trusts while they're in labour so as you say sort of dozens of miles from home three quarters of those were put down to staffing, lack of beds and high staff sickness. One major issue was high acuity. So lots of women who are considered high risk or medium risk because of complications with the pregnancy, but there's not the right or safe skill mix of midwives and consultants to support them.

It's not just midwives, it also could be like the theatre nurse, for instance, or middle grade doctors. Let's get a sense of scale here, because I think that's really important. How many births happened in the same time period that you looked at? Yes, so it is a small proportion, as the NHS England pointed out. So it's 300,000 in that time period. So it is a small proportion. However, I think if you're looking back at the kind of national picture in 2016, around 400 diversions and then that figure is kind of leapt up. Lept up to remind me a thousand, did you say? Yeah, a thousand.

So about what, not just under 1% of the cases across the year. I'm going to bring in Jill Watson, who's Chief Executive of the Royal College of Midwives. Jill is a midwife with 40 years experience, including two decades as director of midwifery at several NHS trusts. Morning, Jill. What do you make of this new information? Good morning. Well, it's not really a surprise.

You know, we've been concerned about staffing levels and capacity in maternity services for many years. It's a significant problem. Maternity services is a women's health service and we're really concerned that women's health doesn't really get the attention it deserves or the investment it needs. I think that I'm just getting behind the issue though, that it is a small number of women so I think there is something about reassuring women who are currently pregnant that they may not get the birth in the hospital of their choice. But also, you know, labour and birth is largely

unpredictable and sometimes there are many women who require care. Those that are acutely ill and therefore can't be transferred have to stay in that unit. So that means that some women, particularly in early labour or potentially who are having elective procedures such as induction, then potentially have to move to another area so that care is safe. And the bottom line is, is that care is safe. It is done with thought. I don't think any anybody in the maternity team wants to stress women any more than they are already when they're just about to give birth. But it's about how to keep women any more than they are already when they're just about to give birth. But it's about how to keep women safe. And so most services have very clear protocols when they're getting busy to bring midwives from other areas and to close maybe birth centres and home births. But

the last resort is to talk to neighbouring units to see if they can transfer women or even if babies need to be transferred to a neonatal unit. Can you explain to us how these decisions are made? Because as director of midwifery over many years, you would have been personally involved in making exactly these sorts of decisions. So how does the process work? Okay, so it's usually the most senior clinicians that are on for the day. So it'll be an obstetrician and a midwife, and it might be one of the hospital managers as well. So they'll have clear protocols of how they work out that they cannot deliver safe care so that they make the decisions about who they need to transfer, how many women that they might need to transfer over the next few hours. The other thing that I think is when you

have to look at the other end of the scale, they can't transfer and i i i had an experience actually just before i left my my previous role where we had normally about 25 births over 24 hours and in one night we had 48 births and we couldn't transfer women because all the other units were busy too um everybody was fine but i can honestly tell you that isn't the situation that midwives and obstetricians and women would like to find themselves. So it's about having those very clear protocols for sensible transfers if need be. But going back again, the capacity of maternity services really needs attention. Women are staying in longer, their labours and births and their pregnancies are more complex. So, you know, there needs to be a radical review of maternity

services and the investment in it. Emily, I'm going to bring you back in, Emily Townsend, the journalist who did this research at the Health Service Journal. I think it's important to understand the impact that this has on the women. Yeah, so there's lots of things that you have to take into consideration. It's quite a scary situation for women in this position. I think what you've got to consider is there's last minute changes being made to birth plans, which can be distressing, can also affect their birthing choices.

Obviously, this is something that is factored into managerial decisions as well, of course. But, you know, is the unit I'm being transferred to equipped to care for me and my baby? Is there a midwife-led unit near the main hospital or another location, perhaps a little bit further away? Is there rapid access to consultant-led care if you need it? Also, choices in per plan. So, for instance, planned plan cesarean sections, can they accommodate those? Do their policies differ? Also, whether the care at a particular unit is rated good or inadequate, so you could move from a good to an inadequate unit. Obviously, as I said, the managers will be taking this into account, but for these women and their families, I imagine it'd be quite scary and disruptive. Yeah, and maybe if there are some women listening who are worried about this happening to them, Jill what support can they

expect and also what if they do find themselves being moved to a hospital they weren't expecting to go how can they prepare? I think that's the key actually Anita it's while you're pregnant is talking to your midwife about what are the plans if you need to be moved now some of the moves are for very good reason because the you know that it might be a neonatal issue maybe have to move to you know an intensive um neonatal unit um so it's about making sure that you're prepared with all of those those that information so that if it you know the unlikely event it happens at least you know what might happen to you um i think it's really key that um that women if they are transferred

um it you know it's to to make sure that they ask the questions um you know when they get to the other unit to satisfy themselves about the care they're going to receive there it is stressful for women em Emily, you said that. And I think midwives and the maternity team are absolutely aware of that. So, you know, going back to what I said at the beginning, how important is it that women's services, particularly maternity, gets attention and investment that it so desperately needs? Yeah, well, Jill Walton, CEO of the Royal College of Midwives and Emily Townsend from the Health Service Journal, thank you both very much indeed.

We asked the Department of Health and Social Care for their views on this research by the Health Service Journal, and they told us, the NHS is broken and too many women are not receiving the maternity care they deserve. We will learn lessons and address shocking inequalities to ensure all women and their babies receive safe, personalised and compassionate care. We will support failing trusts to make rapid improvements

and work with NHS England to train thousands more midwives. 84844 is the number to text. Now, women are continuing to rise in the world of sports and we are all for it here at Women's Hour. This week, BBC Sports Personality of the Year was won by a woman for the fourth year in a row, athlete Keely Hodgkinson. And another sportswoman who's had an extraordinary year is the Olympic medallist, Bryony Page. She won silver in Rio, bronze in Tokyo and then gold in Paris this summer.

That historic win made Bryony the first British gymnast to claim trampoline gold. And it was Team GB's first ever gold in the event. So we thought we'd take a moment to reflect on Bryony the first British gymnast to claim trampoline gold. And it was Team GB's first ever gold in the event. So we thought we'd take a moment to reflect on Bryony's extraordinary career. And she joins me now. Lovely to have you on Women's Hour, Bryony. Congratulations on making history in Paris. Take us back. Take us back to that moment.

What an incredible moment. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. And yeah, to go back to Paris and it was such an amazing competition and um of course like being able to finish uh on top of the podium was such a nice way to be able to complete uh my third Olympic Games but the I love the fact that it was in Paris it was close to home we had a big crowd of uh great British um people in the crowd so my my my family my boyfriend they were all able to make it so it was really really super special to be able to kind of compete in that amazing arena that's something we kind of missed

out on in Tokyo was that um was the crowd and I love performing and competing in front of a crowd so to be able to have that again for for Paris Olympics and so many people that I knew in the crowd was so so so so special yeah um yeah it was it was an amazing moment to find out that I was going to become an Olympic champion um it feels so surreal still now um like I I have some time over Christmas uh with my family to kind of reflect on it and i'm really looking forward to that but um yeah it just doesn't quite feel real i can't believe it happened oh it did happen and we we absolutely wanted it was amazing watching it happen um electric in fact particularly because of the the event that you do trampolining none of us are going to be able most

of us will never experience what that feels like so talk us through what it was like what goes through your mind when that moment when you do you know that it's happening do you know that you're nailing it like what what is going on in the in the mind of an olympian yeah so during the routine my mind is going crazy like it's just trying to pick out those there's so many thoughts go it's a it's a 30 second routine it's just trying to pick out those. There's so many thoughts. It's a 30 second routine. It's actually jumping for about 10 seconds. And then you the routine lasts about 20 seconds. So it's, you know, 24 years worth of training in 30 seconds is quite intense. And there's a lot of thought that going through my brain. But at that point in our training, the kind of muscle memory takes over and it's just trying to decide which parts which thoughts

are the most important to make decisions and the right decisions in that in that moment um so i i'm thinking sort of you don't want to stay in that moment for too long so if you're thinking oh this is going really well then that's when mistakes happen you have to be quick on your in your mind to focus into the next skill yeah Yeah, it's the intelligence as well as the physical ability. You need that quick thinking. Yeah, definitely. The mental approach to a competition and in that routine is super important. And you've already done the physical training.

So in that moment, it's the brain and the psychology that takes over, I think. Of course, your body needs to be in tune and you need to warm up right, but your mind is really important in that moment. So, yeah, I remember in the routine that I was, actually before getting onto the competition trampoline, I was trying to take in that moment of the crowd cheering and just the excitement of being able to compete in an Olympic final. And then I'd try and focus in when I started jumping

and presented to the judges and start the routine. I do remember like I made a mistake so that I think that's one thing that when it comes to a competition you're really attuned to every single tiny mistake that you make so it feels like a much bigger mistake so when I was in the routine like trying to make those small adjustments when you feel those mistakes and then I made one bigger mistake which I think is noticeable and because the crowds kind of cheer me on as well so like I travel a little bit uh too far and then bring it back immediately the next skill but during that mistake I'm thinking should I change the the last skill of my routine to my like comfort uh skill rather than the upgrade um and when it came to skill nine and then the the skill

is the final skill skill 10 I made that decision and change it to an easier skill to kind of bring back the the control to the routine so when I got off the trampoline it's like I'm not sure if it's good enough because I'm feeling all those mistakes so I'm talking to my coach I'm like how how do you think it went like it in my head it felt like a really good routine and I was happy with it but I just wasn't sure kind of how obvious those little mistakes were I think um and then it was good enough for gold I mean it was gold it was perfect it was brilliant I mean if there's something in that we can all take from that those moments where we feel we've really messed up and it's much worse than we think it's much worse than it actually is um can we discuss what happens

next you know you've won gold and I think when we met we did some filming for Countryfile and you said to me that what you really want to do is go into the circus is that still I mean you could presumably do anything you want next so what does happen next

yeah that's I think I'm going to use that time over this is my kind of final day of training until we until I have a bit of time over Christmas, New Year's, that sort of time just to kind of reset ready for the next year and pushing on again. So, yeah, I've got a lot of thinking to do. I have always wanted to since I was like 10 or 11 um I've always wanted to to perform with such slay and and that's a huge dream of mine um I also know I'm not finished trampolining yet so I have a few more competitions I want to compete there's two more skills I want to do like one of the things that is important to me is to make sure that I feel like I've absolutely um given my everything to trampolining and that I can finish in a way that I'm really happy with.

So I actually I love competing for Great Britain and I love competing just in general. So I know I'm not done with competing, but I also have this big dream of mine. So it's I'd love to be greedy and be able to pursue both is the dream and still think about LA and keep that door open for the LA Olympics. So, yeah, so it's time to reflect and time to think about what's next. But I know trampolining is going to be heavily involved. We are all very happy. We're all cheering about that. And you've spoken about overcoming injuries and performance anxiety. I think this might be a good lesson because lots of people suffer from anxiety.

None of us at the level that you have how did how did you overcome it? Yeah so um for me like the I guess we're talking about like the the lost move stuff that I had so mental blocks um that's a huge amount of anxiety when it comes to training and so the easiest way I can explain it is is um like if you were to stand on top of a 10 meter diving board and you for some reason you really want to jump jump off and see what that feels like and you you've done it a thousand times but you just want to try again and um you get to kind of the end of the board and you kind of back away so you're going I'm gonna go and then no no no no so that's like easy ways I can kind of explain what I was feeling but I was jumping really high and then all of it I want to take off my skills I know

it feels really great and um then all of a sudden my brain tells me a part of my brain stops me from doing that so I had this mental block and I just wanted to to compete and to be able to perform my skills but I couldn't yeah and that brings anxiety and that worry and that feeling of failure and all of the kind of emotions but how did did you overcome it? Yeah, to overcome it, it was just, I spoke with, it was getting support around me. So to be able to talk to a confidence coach, to talk to my coach and take baby steps and literally start from scratch again, start from the beginning, rebuild my confidence with everything and take one step at a time. Bryony, it's been brilliant. It's good advice for all of us, particularly as our Christmas special

is all about how you step out of your comfort zone. What I'm taking from that is having good advice around you and good people around you. Bryony, it's been a pleasure speaking to you. Enjoy your Christmas

and your downtime and we look forward to seeing what you do next year. That's all from me today on Weekend Woman's Hour. Tomorrow, actor Anne-Marie Duff. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Sean Diddy Combs has occupied a top spot in the music industry for decades. He earned his stripes during the golden age of hip-hop and he's been called rap royalty. Now, Diddy's sat in jail awaiting trial. He denies all the allegations. I'm Anushka Matanda-Dowity and from BBC Sounds, this is Diddy on in jail awaiting trial. He denies all the allegations. I'm Anushka Matanda-Dowdy, and from BBC Sounds, this is Diddy on Trial. Every week, I'll be examining the latest allegations, interrogating the rumours, and answering your questions.

Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.