Woman's Hour - Daisy May Cooper, Self-defence in schools, Fear of vomiting, The High Table

Episode Date: February 18, 2020

Daisy May Cooper is one half of the sibling duo behind award winning BBC Three comedy This Country which returned for its third and final season on Monday. Daisy plays Kerry Mucklowe alongside her brother Charlie as ‘Kurtan’, two twenty-something cousins who are stuck in their tiny Cotswold village. Their lives revolve around local scarecrow competitions, terrorising neighbours and football training with the friendly local vicar. Daisy joins Jane to discuss the new series, accepting a BAFTA wearing a bin bag and dealing with the real life death of character and friend Sluggs.Do you fear being sick? Do you fear seeing or hearing others vomit? Do you take significant steps to minimize the risk of catching a sickness bug, which have interfered with your daily life? If you’ve answered yes to most of these questions, then you might be emetophobic. Emetophobia - a fear of vomiting - is a relatively common but under-researched psychological disorder that mostly affects women. Lucy Burton is one such woman and has been coping with emetophobia for most of her life. Jane also speaks to emetophobia expert Professor David Veale, a consultant psychiatrist at the Maudsley hospital in London.Ellie Gould was just 17. She had her whole life ahead of her. But last May she was killed by Thomas Griffiths who was once her boyfriend. He was also 17 and pleaded guilty to her murder. Now three of her closest friends want self-defence classes to be part of the national curriculum. They believe that if Ellie had some techniques to protect herself she may still be alive. Tilda Offen, Harriet Adams and Ellie Welling talk to Jane Garvey about what they’re doing for their friend.Every family has their complications - but for Leah, this might be the breaking point. It’s time to tell her traditional Nigerian parents that she is getting married to another woman. A new play - The High Table - explores family tradition, love and trauma. We meet the writer Temi Wilkey.Presenter - Jane Garvey Producer - Anna LaceyGuest - Daisy May Cooper Guest - David Veale Guest - Lucy Burton Guest - Temi Wilkey Guest - Ellie Welling Guest - Tilda Offen Guest - Harriet Adams

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and thank you for downloading Tuesday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. Today, Ellie Gould was murdered at the age of just 17. Her school friends are campaigning now for self-defence classes to be part of the national curriculum. And you can hear from them on the programme today. We'll also discuss something you may not be aware of, or at least you might not know the name, even though you might have it, actually.

It's called emetophobia, and it's the fear of vomit or vomiting, or and vomiting. So if that is something you've had to put up with, and it may well actually have dictated the course of your life to a degree, contact the programme at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also, of course, always email us via our website, bbc.co.uk slash womenshour. Our first guest this morning, really looking forward to chatting to her, Daisy May Cooper is here. Welcome to the programme, Daisy. Thank you so much for having me. You are one half of the duo, the sibling duo, behind the BBC Three mockumentary comedy This Country. But it's also on BBC One, isn't it?

10.35 Monday night started last night. It is, yeah. Now, you play Kerry Mucklow. Your brother Charlie plays Curtain, so-called because of his fringe. Yes. I only really picked up on that last night, but that's me. I'm a bit slow. He's got very, very straight hair.

Yes, but Curtain, so he calls himself Curt himself curtain and indeed you call him curtain too um he is your brother in real life in the show he's your cousin yes and what are you doing in this country you're sort of filling the days aren't you yeah I suppose it's just about sort of two sort of young people that are a bit stuck that don't have any opportunities, that are just trying to make their own entertainment and are just very, very bored. It's set in the Cotswolds, which many people associate, not entirely without reason,

with slightly red-faced chaps in raspberry-coloured trousers and lots of beautiful old pubs. This is the other Cotswolds. This is the other Cotswolds. This is the other Cotswolds, yeah. This is the sort of council estates that you find just outside these picturesque villages with hanging baskets. And, yeah, we decided to set it there, not only because we live there, but there is such a massive divide between, you know,

the working class and the higher classes. It's just this massive gap in between. Well, we can explore that in more detail in a moment or two, but what we need to do right at the start is acknowledge something really very sad that happened around this programme, involving someone who was a genuine friend of yours and who was a part of the programme as well. Tell me about Michael Slaggs.

So Michael, who plays Slaggs in the show, was a long friend of... We'd been friends for ages since primary school and he unfortunately passed away before the filming of Series 3 and it was really tough. We had about three weeks after he passed to write the episode. And it's quite a bizarre thing having to write something about somebody passing and that person being your friend and you haven't had the time to grieve.

It was really strange. But for you not to have referenced it at all would have been would have been wrong yeah and and it was it was really difficult because the way Kerry and Curtin feel about slugs is very different to the way Daisy and Charlie feel about Michael yeah so that he really was your friend in the show you're very dismissive to put it mildly in fact you try to avoid him most of the time we try i mean we sort of did that in real life when he was a bit annoying but he um it was it was difficult to get the balance right because he was so funny and it was so

important to us to make a fitting tribute for him and not make it too mawkish or... But, I mean, it was such a shock. He went downhill very quickly and before he'd said to me, look, please, can I be in the third series? Like, even if I have to be on a drip and we just hide it under, like, a bag or something or a coat. But, yeah, it was a real shock. We're just going to play what happened in last night's episode. Still available, of course, online on BBC3.

But here are Kerry and Curtin talking about the character of Slugs. Yeah, it was really sad. There were so many times where you'd think, this has got to be it now, surely. And then you get a second wind. Yeah. Then a third wind and a fourth wind. I actually lost count of how many winds he had by the end,

but I think he was on something like his 26th wind. Yeah. And we saw him not long before he passed away, didn't we? Yeah. The last words he ever said to us was, do you guys fancy doing a zombie escape room in Swindon on Saturday but unfortunately

he passed away on a Friday didn't he yeah which was sort of a relief in a way yeah blessing that's the characters of Kerry and Curtin talking about the character of Slugs

played by their great friend Michael Slegs. It's very touching that, actually, because it's completely authentic. And I think it was very, very well handled. Let's talk a bit about the Cotswolds and your place in it. How have the locals reacted to the show? Because to put it mildly, you're ripping into the place quite well. You don't leave many stones unturned, do you? Well, I was quite shocked.

People reacted and responded really well. And there was such like, it was so many strange things. I got stopped in the co-op by like an 80-year-old woman who said how addicted she is to the show and how much she loves it. And it was really positive, bar this one woman from North Leech who drives a Land Rover and would insist on parking right in front of the cameras.

What, to stop things happening? To stop filming. And we'd say, we had our locations manager come up and say, would you mind just moving just like five centimetres centimeters like your car and she would say no I hate the show so that you had to put up with that woman but apart from that everybody was lovely it took a huge effort on the part of you and Charlie to get this show made didn't it um you went to RADA I did from your childhood in this part of England.

How was RADA for you? I hated it. I really hated it. Get off the fence, Daisy. Why? I felt that they were... I didn't feel like they were supportive. Me and a few friends actually really struggled afterwards. It's that mentality of, right, what we'll do is we'll break you all down and then build you up again but they just never built us back up again what do they actually do you i don't quite understand i know the theory but i don't understand what happened they um

were just really self-critical you'd have to do really long days and they just made you feel like you you didn't know why you were even there you didn't felt like you you had any talent or they were just negative the whole time and I don't because their theory was well the industry's like that it so we're toughening you up for that and and then you get out and you're like actually everybody's really lovely in this industry so that was completely unnecessary. And it still actually makes me quite angry that any young, naive person with talent has to go through that. Would you advise against going? Yeah, I would. Absolutely. I think there's so many other ways you can get into the industry.

Are there though? I think so, definitely. Well, connections help, don't they? Yeah. But how do you make those connections if you don't have the kind of family with, I don't know, appropriate contacts? Well, it depends.

I think, I mean, you can get yourself involved in like the National Youth Theatre. If you're a writer performer, you can, I mean, what we did, how we ended up getting the show because we had a useless agent was get it was literally just sending out some scripts. I found a load of emails on Google for production companies and just sent them out. That's how we originally got the show going. So there is there are ways. Yes, but you have to be incredibly persistent. And you and Charlie were working as night cleaners. We were, yeah.

Where did you clean? We cleaned in these awful offices that were on like an industrial estate just outside Cirencester. And it was just really bleak. But I think it was such an amazing thing because not only were we spending so much time together, it sort of forced you to think, right, well, then we have to become a success because we can't let this be the rest of our lives. It's quite unusual to have siblings, sister and brother,

writing together, isn't it? How many other examples do you know? Oh, well, you have Jamie and Natasha Demetria, who, by the way, are the funniest people I've ever met, who did Staff Left Flats. Okay, yeah. They're amazing. But I'm not, you get like the Farley brothers

and it's always brothers. The Coen brothers. Coen brothers. Yeah, okay, yes, you're right. It is always brothers. Where are those sisters? And I also want to put a bit of a shout out to the Church of England,

which is not something I'd normally do. But in the Cotswolds, it would seem, and certainly in your show, the vicar, Francis Seaton is the vicar, isn't he? I mean, he's the nicest man alive. And you imagine it's not entirely uncommon for a vicar in a community like that to affect. He's more of a social worker, isn't he, actually?

He is, yeah. And that was because we, first of all, actually, originally that character was meant to be a policeman because we wanted to have like a mentor and somebody that would always support Kerry and Curtin but then we thought

no policeman's not right but some a vicar would be perfect because morally he feels like he has to and I think it sort of works quite well. In, I think it's episode two, he has scoffed a local lady's sprinkler head. And he thinks about replacing it, but then decides against it. People are looking baffled around the table.

But actually, it's a significant event in the village, isn't it? It is, absolutely. It's all the tiny little trivial things become massive because that's all you have and the single biggest problem for parts of the english countryside are what would you say is it lack of public transport is it house prices what is it i think it's more for young people. There's just not, there's not any jobs. There's not, I mean, especially like career-wise. I mean, there's no, I mean, I felt growing up that you'd have to move to a city to be able to pursue any sort of career

unless you wanted to work in like retail or catering or whatever. So yeah, it's really tough for young people and your um very visible anti-fashion statements i think have been admired by many you've turned up at award ceremonies wearing well a swindon town shirt on one occasion i remember that and a bin bag on another i did yeah but that's just me showing off and desperately wanting to get in the headlines because i know that nobody really knows who i am so it's pathetic really well I'll tell you who does know who you are and that's our correspondent from Poland oh Magda who emailed the program to say I love Woman's Hour I've been listening to

the show for years even though I've never lived in England although I do take holidays there I love this country it's the funniest thing I've ever watched such a shame it's going to be the last series so oh Magda it's brilliant that be the last series. Oh, Magda. It's brilliant that Magda's enjoyed it. I have to say, how do you think it resonates with a young Polish woman? Well, this is the thing I don't understand because we've made it very specific. I mean, our references in there, we referenced Tony from Hollyoaks, you know, how somebody from Poland, we get messages from Sweden, Australia. I mean, I don't quite know how it translates,

but I suppose it is universal and a lot of people have been grown up bored in a small place. Yeah. Have you ever been bored? If you have, contact the programme. We appreciate it if you do. I think you're absolutely right. I think it is genuinely brilliant and it's great to see you, Daisy. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Congratulations. Looking forward to the rest of Series 3 which you can get on BBC 3

and it was also on BBC 1 last night and will continue to be on BBC 1 Monday nights 10.35 for the next five more weeks. That's right. Yes, that's right. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Now earlier in the Green Room, Daisy was exposed to a full-blooded chat about the fear of vomit and she said

she's storing all this away for a future programme so we can't wait to see what Daisy's creative mind does with this. It was because we're about to discuss emetophobia which is the fear of vomit and vomiting. It is relatively common this phobia but it is unfortunately somewhat under-researched and guess what it mostly affects women. Lucy Burton has got it. Lucy, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. And also with us, Professor David Veal, who's a consultant psychiatrist at the Maudsley Hospital. David, first of all, if you don't mind, is it a fear of vomit or vomiting or both? It's predominantly a fear

of vomiting of yourself. Occasionally it's about other people vomiting, but then it's usually because they're contagious and they'll pass on the vomiting to you. Oh, I see. So it's rooted in a fear of infection. Mainly. Okay. Lucy, tell me about your own experience of it. Well, as a small child, I never liked it when other people vomited. I mean, who does? But I would go and hide in another part of the house if my little brother was being ill. But I don't think that I realised that it was a problem until my early 20s when I really started to change what I was doing in my daily routine to avoid being ill

or avoid seeing vomit. So I wouldn't go out and eat at restaurants, I would avoid going on the tube. If I had to, I'd be bathing myself in hand sanitiser after, which I still think is no bad idea. You know, my hands would be red raw from hand washing. And if I saw vomit or if I felt sick myself, I would have horrific panic attacks and felt completely stupid because of this, because who has this? It's not something that's going to kill me. And people have to deal with far worse things in their lives. So I felt very silly. And then it abated for a bit. And then I had two children. And as we know, children are little germ factories. And this fear raised its ugly head again. Who had you told about your fear? No one. My mother, my father, my husband, and now you and everyone listening. So no one.

But the people you did tell, did they laugh or did they understand? They're my husband and now you and everyone listening. So no one. But the people you did tell, did they laugh or did they understand? I think they were very understanding but perhaps slightly baffled and would be very supportive. But you say, well, it's nothing to worry about. But for me it was something to worry about. Because it was really impacting on how you lived your life. It was impacting on how I lived my life. I mean, I think I'm quite lucky. I probably have the milder end of it. There are

people, and if you go on online forums, who have it so bad. You know, women that considered terminating pregnancies because they didn't want to deal with morning sickness or children's bugs. I mean, I was reading this morning about a lady that had stage three breast cancer and didn't want to have chemo because she was so worried about the nausea. And people even say they want to kill themselves when they have this. I mean, it's so serious and no one talks about it. David, how many people have you treated with it? Well, I've certainly assessed at least a few hundred. And it's the same pattern over and over again. So it is about 90% sufferers who are women. And we don't know why uh because there may be some sort of genetic component or it may be that women's just more focused on preventing illness and contamination

and men tend to have a more jokey attitude towards vomiting why why would men have a more jokey no i mean you can say what honestly you can be this is a show where we talk about anything and in great detail so tell me we don't know we don't know. We really don't know. No. I mean, well, men tend to brush things off more, don't they? That has nothing to do with bodily fluids. Well, do they? I'm saying in general, on balance.

OK. I mean, I get told off for generalising about men, but I suppose we'll allow a male consultant psychiatrist to get away with it. So at the extreme end, as Lucy points out, it really is something that is ridiculously impactful on somebody's life. Definitely, because individuals may be avoiding a wide range of situations or activities, but it may also be a reason for seeking help. So, for example, when women do want to have children or get pregnant or when they get children, asy said that's maybe the main reason or motivation for getting help because when they have had children they may be escaping from and the child vomits and they may be escaping from the situation or getting a relative to help them and so on and you know sometimes it overlaps with things like obsessive compulsive disorder

where there's lots of checking and need for certainty and constant hand washing and so on so it's still trying to understand how best to help it is the key issue how best can it be helped i'm going to just from my own experience i remember years and years ago when i was on a local radio station i interviewed a psychologist who told me that one of the ways of treating this was to make fake vomit and actually use i don don't know, sour milk, flour, the inevitable vegetables, we all know the one I'm thinking of. And it sounds ridiculous, but you just sort of stir it and perhaps put your hands in it and just get over the whole thing. Yes, but it's very difficult, of course, because the key issue is vomiting.

Rather than the vomit itself. Rather than the vomit itself. Well, doesn't it depend on the individual? It does, but I'm just saying it's not like facing up to, say, a fear of spiders or blood or something where you can touch the spider eventually and so on because you can't repeatedly vomit as such. It wouldn't be ethical or helpful necessarily. You can certainly face up to those situations or activities that you're avoiding and without all those little checking behaviours and trying to control yourself and all the things to do, monitoring everybody all the time. And you may well be role-playing vomiting, pretending to play, because you've got to really practise in terms of preparing yourself to vomit

at some stage in the future and giving up this need for control. Is that at the heart of it then? Yes, because a lot of phobics fear for control. Is that at the heart of it then? Yes, because a lot of phobic phobics fear losing control. I see. Does that ring true for you, Lucy? Certainly elements of it definitely do. I think for me, having tried to cure myself over the last few weeks and months, I think what I've come to realise is that for me,

I'm not so scared of the vomit itself or vomiting, but the worry about the emotions. I'm almost scared of being scared of it, if that makes sense. It does to me. Go on, David. Yeah, no, that sounds absolutely right. But I was just saying that often it's not so much the pictures of vomit or vomit itself. It's more to do with the sound, perhaps, or the smell of vomit. And, you know, so certainly sometimes we've been experimenting with things like virtual reality so it all seems to immediately help people tolerate the distress of vomiting and be able to

test out their expectations. You have two young children, being a parent means you are going to come into contact with any number of different sorts of bodily fluids. Do you make certain that you don't deal with your kids being ill or are you now able to get through it? I think in the past my automatic reaction has been to delegate to my very calm husband who isn't phased by anything like that. But I'm by myself with them a lot during the week and you don't have a choice.

You've got to just get stuck in and sort it out. And I might be a bit shaky and a little bit worried by it but you just have to get on I think um and you don't want your fear to transmit to them that's the last thing I want and that's why I wanted to try and get it sorted because I don't want to pass anything on or stop them you know enjoying themselves because of my fears I don't want to say oh don't throw yourself into that softball ball pit because clearly there's vomit at the bottom of it because it's a softball ball pit. If they want to do that, they can. I've never considered there to be vomit at the bottom of a softball play kit.

But when you have this, every single scenario, you're almost kind of trying to guess. It's a threat. I see. Sorry. Yes, you were just making it very clear. I hadn't thought of it. David, any more final thoughts? I mean, the key issue is that preoccupation, constant monitoring of people, whether they look ill or whether there's a potential vomiting come up. You know, it needs it is treatable, but it's tough and it requires a lot of courage and perseverance to resolve it. I'm still slightly puzzled by the gender angle. And I don't really think you know either No of course we don't Is it because women are, I mean this is again a generalisation, more likely to admit to these things No there's been lots of surveys now that that sort of fear and particularly

the vomiting, the specific phobia is definitely more common in women. I mean I had it to a very mild extent don't have it anymore fortunately but I remember I met a cousin who'd grown up on the other side of the world and also had it. So it suggests some sort of genetic predisposition, at least. Gosh, OK. Right. Lucy, thank you very much. Do you feel any happier?

Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting to share. I think that if other people listening have got it and they know that they're not alone, I felt very alone. And you're not. As David says, lots of people come to him for treatment. My colleague next door, the producer who's in charge today, Anna, has just said that we've had loads of emails about this already. I can't actually, well, I can see your emails now. We're hoping to raise more awareness and try and start a charity for sufferers. So where do people go for help?

Well, they can go in the NHS. There are lots of good services and psychological therapy services and following the right protocol and it's the doing that counts usually rather than just the talking about it. Just a quick question from a listener who says, my daughter's not worried about vomiting herself but really will have a meltdown

if other people are doing it. What should that concerned mum do? I think it depends. Wait for the moment to see how it evolves because it may just be a passing thing but if obviously it persists and really interfering in your life then it is certainly important to get help. Okay, David thank you very much and thank you Lucy for owning this one

because honestly loads of other people are in the same position so thank you very much for being willing to talk about it. And keep an eye on Daisy's work and see when it crops up. Thank you all very much. Really appreciate it. Now, tomorrow is the start of a new series on the programme of Family Secrets. And tomorrow, Sarah uncovers something about herself, something very important at the age of 44. And on Friday, we've got an extended interview

with Phoebe Waller-Bridge. She's going to talk to Jenny about all things Fleabag. She'll talk about celibacy and religion and sexual fluidity and how important friends are. Friends like the Fleabag director, Vicky Jones. Phoebe says, friendship can be the greatest love story of your life. Because I think friendships are the greatest romances of our lives.

I think, and Vicky and I always would joke that our boyfriends were our mistresses to our marriage and our love story. Which doesn't go down so well with the boyfriends, I've got to say. And that is Phoebe Waller-Bridge talking to Jenny on Woman's Hour on Friday. A long interview that you're going to really enjoy it. talking to Jenny on Women's Hour on Friday. A long interview that you're going to really enjoy it. And it's on Women's Hour this Friday. Now, Ellie Gould was just 17 when she was killed by Thomas Griffiths. He was also 17 and pleaded guilty to her murder. He's now serving a 12 and a half year prison sentence.

Three of her closest friends from her sixth form in Wiltshire, one is also called Ellie, now want self-defence classes to be part of the national curriculum. They believe that if Ellie had known some techniques to protect herself, she may still be alive. Tilda, Harriet and Ellie told me what kind of girl their friend was, and you'll hear from Ellie first. She was just the most lovely person I've ever met. I struggled coming into sixth form with sort of friendship group problems at the beginning and Ellie was in all of my lessons

and we just got friendlier and friendlier and then one day she was just like, join my friendship group, you know, that sort of thing. She could tell I was struggling and I don't think she likes seeing people sort of struggle with could tell I was struggling and um I just don't I don't think she likes seeing people sort of struggle with friendship and like not having a good time so I think she just she was really welcoming she just straight away was just coming to my friendship group that sort of thing and it was it was really lovely I think Tilda you'd known her the longest

is that is that right yeah yeah I have um I'd grown up with her so I've been through my secondary school experience with her and she literally she just brought grown up with her, so I've been through my secondary school experience with her. And she literally, she just brought out the best in me. So I just, I used to see myself as quite a reserved person before I became friends with her. But she's almost made me the person I am today, which is really lovely to have a friend like that. And Harriet, what about you? I think the main thing, she was such a fun person. She was lovely to be around. Everyone understood and appreciated how kind she was.

Even straight after she died, we made a book where people could write letters and almost all of them spoke about how she would smile at them as they walked past. She'd always ask how they were and say hi. In her typical way, she'd waddle through the sick form. What do you mean by that? She just had this...

A distinctive walk. Yeah, this goofy little walk, and she'd walk through, and you knew she was coming, and she'd just be beaming ear to ear. They sound like small things, you know, the idea that she would always make eye contact or always smile, but they're not insignificant. They're important things, aren't they? They are. It's something you don't appreciate until it's gone i'm going to sound a bit like your mom's but um

this is such a it's such a difficult time of anybody's life to be 18 you're on the cusp of leaving behind everything you know and going out into the world and to have something like this happen at this point in your life i really do feel immense sympathy for all of you and Ellie tell me how you've come to this idea as a way of recovering something from this this hideous episode well I mean the whole experience for all of us was completely terrifying I think one of the main motivations for this is the fact that if Ellie knew self-defence, she could potentially have got away from what was about to happen to her. And before Ellie was stabbed, she was strangled by Tom. And I think that's one of the things we've sort of held on to,

the fact that if she potentially knew self-defence, she could have gotten away from his grasp and potentially could still be here with us today. But because she didn't know, like most of us, she didn't know, she was... She didn't know self-defence at all, to my knowledge, and I think that's why it's so important that girls and boys learn self-defence. I mean, we're all going off to uni soon. We're going to be living in halls with people we have no idea, we've never met them before in our lives.

Some people are going to big cities. It's such a life skill that everyone needs to know it. It baffles me that it's not been taught in schools already. So, Harriet, what have you been able to do so far? So far, we've had contact with James Gray, our local MP, and we've proposed a few ideas obviously about self-defence becoming a mandatory part of the national curriculum

as well as spoken about education on coercive relationships because a lot of the time things won't actually lead to something like what happened to Ellie but you can be in an unhealthy relationship that you do need to get yourself out of we've also been doing quite a lot of campaigning. Tilda actually made a petition

and we reached 10,000 signatures a few days ago. So we're hoping that it can be discussed in Parliament. How many signatures do you need for that? We need 100,000 signatures for that, but we are still pushing. Is doing all this, Tilda, making what happened any easier to bear at all? I wouldn't... For me personally, I wouldn't say it makes it easier, but it gives me a purpose, because before I felt a bit lost. I just thought, Ellie's gone, what's the point? If someone could be taken that quickly like what's the point in trying but from doing something like this it's almost sparked this sort of fire inside me almost to sort of help prevent it from happening to other people because it would break my heart

to think that something that could be prevented could happen again to someone and it's just devastating it makes my heart break to think that other people could go through this what has it done to the atmosphere in the sixth form at your at your school it's it's actually it's improved our relationship with each other like we're now almost like one big family it's really lovely because we we just look out for each other at this point there's no divides between people anymore. And there were in the past. Inevitably, there were. Yeah, like people would sort of bicker and things like that.

But now it's obvious we have this feeling of just love for each other, really. It's really nice. What is true, obviously, is that you are on the point of thinking about leaving and, as you say, going to uni and different experiences and many more people. To what degree has it taken away your optimism and adventure, Ellie, all this? I think for me it's the loss of trust in people. That's the one thing I'm really struggling with at the moment, to think that someone so close to you... You know, I grew up with Tom.

I went to primary school with him and secondary school with him. I completely... You would never think anyone so close you could do something so devastating and so horrible and horrific but we were so close we used to go to parties together we had we had a great time together and no one would ever suspect it and I think someone so close to you to do something so horrific it just completely throws you and it's it's thrown a lot of people and it shocked everyone, to be honest with you. It's really, it's horrific. And how much help have you had, Harriet? And indeed, what kind of help can be given to people going through what you're going through?

Our school has been really great with offering us support. Right from the get-go, we had psychologists and therapists and counsellors there to talk to us if we needed at the beginning we our group was quite divided because obviously we were the closest to what happened we were close to Ellie and Tom we were involved in the actual police investigation about it and would have had to go to trial if well we would have had to go to court if it went to trial deeply guilty we should say thankfully yeah um so at first we were quite we were just the group that needed the counselling the most so we had a separate counsellor to speak to us because of the confidential information that we knew um and now it's more on a when you need it basis so if you're having a bit of a wobble one day or if you're just struggling if it's a significant day like it reaches the third of every month and I know

I suddenly think oh at this time this would have been happening or it would have been how many hours before it would have happened and obviously we've just had her birthday a few weeks ago and it reaches these milestones and it does shake you again it brings you back to square one I mean a lot of it is learning that everything we're feeling is normal and that we should be feeling it and just it's learning how to deal with it because it's not the sort of thing you want to just sit on and then feel later down the line oh absolutely but I wonder you think Tildrit might get tougher when you're not together anymore because you are not that far away from leaving school. Yeah, I'm going to be honest, it's one of my, I don't want to say fears,

but I am scared because the two girls who, like, have been through so much with me, they're going off to uni and I'm taking a gap year. So it's the idea that everybody that's been through this situation with me is now starting their own lives and I'm stuck. Just, I am apprehensive about how I'm going to deal with that. So when something as terrible as this happens, the ripple effect, it goes across all sorts of different sorts of people and communities and lots of people will feel devastated, won't they?

I know you know that. Ellie's family, do they admire what you're doing? Do they support it? Yeah, we're in contact with Ellie's mum, they they admire what you're doing they support it yeah we're in contact with Ellie's mum Carol at the moment quite frequently we sort of a lot of the stuff we do we take her along with us for support and she's she's so lovely she we love meeting up with Carol how is she doing um it's difficult to talk on her behalf I mean you can see her from the outside and she looks so strong and you just sort of admire her,

but it's just so difficult to talk on her because you just don't know what she's thinking at all. But she's right behind you. She's right behind us and she's so proud of us and it's so amazing and lovely to have that support from Ellie's mum. Well, that was Ellie Welling, Tilda Offen and Harriet Adams. And Sophie on Twitter says, I am stunned by the articulate grace and courage

of the six formers speaking on Women's Hour right now. I echo that 100%. I thought they were absolutely brilliant. And what a time in their lives. And our best wishes go out to them and to Ellie Gould's family, obviously. Now, The High Table is a new play at the Bush Theatre in West London and the playwright is Temi Wilkie, who is here. Temi, welcome. Good morning.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's a great pleasure to talk about it because I was there on Saturday night and this is a real glimpse into a slice of life in the central character of the play. Just set it up for anybody who hasn't been aware of it so far. What's happening? Well, so it follows the life of Tara, who is getting married to her girlfriend. And basically her parents are Nigerian

and quite strictly Pentecostal. And they're very much sort of against the wedding. They say that they're not going to come at the very beginning of the play. Okay, let's just hear a quick extract from the play. Here we go. I am just waiting for the day when you bring home your own special somebody, Omotara, Yoruba or Igbo or even House Sasha. It won't matter.

That's if she even marries a Nigerian. What if she got married an Ogimbo? Me, I don't mind. He can be African or Igbo, whatever. So long as we can still have a proper Niger wedding and we can eat jollof rice and plantain and moe moe at the reception. I'm just praying for the day that I am seated at the high table, spooted well, well in my ashwebby. Galee crowning my head. Diamonds go be shining on my ear, on my neck, on my wrist.

Watching you dancing with the man you love. Tara, Fola said this man, he kisses the ground she walks on. That's what I want for you. Did you enjoy your food, Leah? Yes, thank you. I was worried we hadn't made enough. Tara called to say you were coming after I had already started cooking. I hadn't expected you. Sorry about

the last minute addition. No, now, you are welcome. She so rarely comes over anymore. I thought there might be something wrong. No, nothing wrong. It's actually the opposite. That's what me and Leah came here to talk to you about. There's no easy way of saying this, but I'm really happy and I hope you will be too. Leah and I are getting married. Right. And it comes, to put it mildly, as a bit of a shock. Is it too simple to say this is your first play and this is your story? I think it is too simple.

It was very much like a sort of starting point. That's my big concern, that my parents will come and watch it and think, oh God, it's all based on them. And it sort of came from the fact that when I first came out, my mum felt like she didn't think she'd be able to come to my wedding if I married a woman and I guess I was sort of grappling with that when I started writing the play but it became a lot of other things um so yeah it's it's definitely partly my story but I think it's also partly the story of lots of people who whose parents are from a country that's been colonized.

Have your parents seen the play? Not yet, no. They're coming soon. They are going to see it. Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned colonisation, and it's not at all insignificant, obviously. And there's a dual setting in this play, isn't there? So we have the contemporary love story,

and we have the ancestors in heaven debating how things should go. Yeah, they're sort of debating whether or not to bless the wedding. And there are sort of a couple of ancestors who are really against it and one ancestor who is really advocating for their marriage. And it turns out that that ancestor was somebody who'd had a gay relationship herself. Yeah, so sort of before colonisation, it sort of explores how pre-colonial attitudes to same-sex marriage in Nigeria were really accepting and the fact that that was changed because of it was sort of a western import like homophobia

rather than homosexuality and I interviewed only last week actually a wonderful woman for whom I felt immense sympathy who was from the Cameroon and she was seeking asylum in Britain and she was a lesbian she'd been found out if I can put it that way in Cameroon and she was seeking asylum in Britain and she was a lesbian she'd been found out if I can put it that way in Cameroon had terrible treatment um there is real suffering at the moment isn't there yeah definitely and like I think a lot of because there's also a storyline with um Tara's uncle um who lives in Nigeria in the present day um and he's also queer um and I guess I was sort of exploring queer legacy, but also really what happens today and how sort of queerness in African countries affects people living there right now, which is based a lot off of them. There's an amazing LGBT activist called Bisi Elimi, who was the first person to come out in Nigeria on national TV.

And he actually lives in London now. Because he has to. now um but he has to yeah because he has to because um you sort of would fear for your life otherwise um so yeah it's really difficult your your career is clearly going to be an interesting one you've you've written this play um it's your first one obviously as I say but you've also been involved in sex education in now the second series I think I'm right in saying is now streaming now isn't it the third series is going to arrive at some point yeah and you're involved or were involved in the writer's room for that yes what I mean to be honest with you I'm a civilian what is a writer's

room and don't say it's a room where don't say that um well basically you sort of um it's sort of a group of people all coming together to figure out what will happen in the season. And it's a really generous thing to do because Laurie Nunn, who's the show creator and the writer, she just is really generous with everyone's ideas. And you sort of together craft what might happen in the season. And that goes on to change. So you can sit there and you can just mention a character and mention a story for them that you fancy yeah it's a lot more sort of structured than that um because it's over like a month but like pretty much that's like to to put it in simple terms pretty much yeah yeah okay

and um you get paid obviously yeah yeah all right and do you know whether any of your ideas are going to end up in the series i mean i hope so you sort of i think things tend to change because you can change one thing about one character and then that might shift something for somebody else. But yeah, hopefully I'll be watching it and be like, that was me. That was my suggestion. Now, you've probably heard Daisy May Cooper on the programme earlier. She was talking about how odd she found RADA. What would you say was your experience of working in theatre? Because theatre is still, let's face it it is still overwhelmingly white and middle class isn't it yeah well it's funny because um i studied at cambridge um and then i actually did national youth theatre so i'm going to shout them out again absolutely love national youth theatre

um and it was interesting at cambridge i really struggled there's a huge acting scene and it's really amazing and really well funded but i really struggled to get any parts as a sort of black women um you tried though yeah oh i tried oh I tried yeah um but actually I found that the industry was much kinder to me than I expected after leaving but I think it was because like Daisy was saying I just became incredibly persistent because I sort of thought that that's what I needed to do after leaving um and so I sort of was much more kind of mercurial and ended up like sort of pushing myself to get into rooms so I think like like Daisy said, there are other pathways. They're not as well trodden and it's sort of harder

because you have to find your own way. But I think it can be done. You just need a lot of tenacity. And the fact that your play features as a central character a lesbian black woman, is that, it shouldn't be unusual, but I was racking my brains and I'm not sure I have ever seen a play like that before. Yeah, no, I think the part of the reason that I ended up writing it

was because I watched an episode of Master of None, which Lena Waithe wrote, and that was, it's called the Thanksgiving episode and basically explores a coming out story of a black lesbian woman. And it was really revolutionary for me because I just had never seen it before on stage or screen and it sort of felt like it gave me license to start writing because I felt as though felt like my story mattered and it was important it kind of gave you permission and off you went yeah yeah that's interesting okay thank you very much Temi thank you um Temi Mewilke and the play is called High Table and I should say it's also funny and perhaps that was the bit we missed out but it is it's a comedy and it's on at the Bush

Theatre in Shepherd's Bush until March the 21st and then it goes to Birmingham Rep. Right good point thank you very much indeed. Now so many people today wanting to talk about emetophobia so we'll get on to that in a moment but first of all it's worth mentioning this email from Carola who says I was interested and frankly surprised to hear the interviewer, maybe Jane Garvey, and it was me, yes, say during her interview with the writer of This Country, something along the lines of, I don't often have anything good to say about the Church of England, but. My question is, would the interviewer be prepared to say, for instance, I don't often have anything good to say about liberal Judaism?

Of course not. And Carola, you're right. And I'm sorry if you took anything from that that suggested that I thought the Church of England was any worse than any other religious organisation, then I'm extremely sorry. Shouldn't have done it. Completely take your point. Now, what else has come in today? Yes, this is from a listener who also took me to task. Jane should have pressed the psychiatrist more on the issue of gender because it does matter. It is basically more acceptable for men to vomit than for women. Vomiting or barfing is a horrible but accepted form of male behaviour, so-called locker room behaviour, being legless together and behaving badly

in places like Magaluf on Saturday nights. Mary-Anne says, thank you for this item. I have spent 60 years feeling a fool for fearing being sick. It's actually really good to know that it's not just me. And from Stephanie, I've suffered from this for as long as I can remember, but I thought I was the only one. I had no idea it was a recognised thing. It has and still does big effects on me. I dread it when I hear of anyone with a sickness bug in case I catch it. I couldn't deal with my children when they were young if they had a tummy bug.

Their dad had to do it all. And if I do get caught out by the radio, for example, it can induce something very much like a panic attack. Caroline says, I have fought with this for all of my adult life. I'm 49 now and at my most severe, I couldn't even say the word. I have spent thousands of pounds on therapy of all types over many years. Some helps, but doesn't absolutely cure you. I've always felt a bit of a failure for not nailing this, but recently I've had a couple of breakthroughs. Number one, stop giving it a label. By calling it a phobia, I'm giving it weight and significance

and allowing it to exist and take over my life. Two, acceptance. It's part of who I am, quirks and all. Three, understanding the root cause she says let's actually say what in her case the root cause was um and as i say i had it and i don't really know why i've got it particularly either so um that is interesting let's see this is from somebody who says my daughter who's 50's 50 now, has got emetophobia, and it really does dictate her life. She waits outside the doctor's until it's time for her appointment as she's terrified of catching anything.

Trying to get to a hospital for a blood test is a major operation. She shakes, and it's really, really difficult to see. She washes her hands so often they're covered in cuts and they're so dry. In the mornings when she wakes up, her fingers are so stiff she can't move them for a while. Oh dear, that is such a very complex case actually. And I'm so sorry that your daughter is having such a tough time. From Hannah, I was genuinely excited to hear that this was going to be featured on the programme today. I had this condition, but never realised it was a condition. However, I had to turn the radio off when Jane began talking about making fake vomit, as the description was just too much.

Yes, I did think twice about saying that. But I mean, I suppose we have to respect the fact that most people don't have the phobia and therefore they sort of needed to hear how it might be treated. I also want to say how many people just said how impressed they were by the young women I spoke to from the sixth form. Ellie Gould's very, very close friends who are now campaigning for self-defence to be taught in schools. I thought their strength was absolutely amazing and they were articulate and brilliant. And you just have to wish them the very, very best, actually, for the blunt, boys should be taught to behave better. And I absolutely get that. That's part of the conversation, but it doesn't take away from the strength of those young women who I thought were absolutely magnificent. And Magda, our friend who listens from Poland, she got back in touch after I mentioned her during the interview with Daisy May Cooper.

And she says, country of great opportunities. Also, I studied at a film school and Daisy brought home today everything she said about the industry. It really, really resonated with me. But they believed in themselves and went the extra mile to create something clever and hilarious. I think they are both, that's Daisy and her brother Charlie, a great inspiration.

Magda, thank you. Do feel free to email us whenever you like. You can become a regular fixture on the podcast. It's good to hear from you. And indeed, it's always good to hear from anyone who listens wherever you are in the world. And if you've got ideas for us, keep them coming via the website bbc.co.uk slash Women's Hour. Jenny's here tomorrow and amongst other things, she'll be starting a new series of our Family Secrets features. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. What are you interested in? And I mean really interested in.

Really into box certificates. Pencils. Crinoline mania. So much so that if you see it, or hold it, or just think about it, then everything stops. And then, one day, it just vanished.

Each week in the Boring Talks podcast, join me, James Ward, as I introduce a guest speaker to share their own fascination for a very niche subject. But what could it possibly be? From the personal joys of pencils and teletext, to the expectant sounds of old computer games loading, every talk is a varied and surprising treat. Hear that? Lovely. The Boring Talks. Subscribe right now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.