Woman's Hour - Daisy May Cooper, The Bad Guru, Fiona-Lee

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Actor and writer Daisy May Cooper shot to fame with This Country, the mockumentary about rural poverty in the Cotswolds that she wrote and starred in with her brother Charlie. She followed that with the lead in BBC/HBO show Rain Dogs and in 2022 she co-wrote and starred in the twisting female-friendship thriller Am I Being Unreasonable? With the second series about to drop on BBC 1 and BBC iPlayer Daisy joins Clare McDonnell in the Woman’s Hour studio. Spanish footballer Jenni Hermoso has given evidence at the trial of Spain's former football chief Luis Rubiales. He is accused of sexual assault and coercion after he kissed her during the medal ceremony when Spain won the 2023 World Cup final, charges which he denies. Clare speaks to Semra Hunter, sports broadcaster journalist.A new BBC podcast has uncovered some shocking allegations of grooming, trafficking and sexual exploitation linked to a yoga movement. The Bad Guru podcast follows Miranda who joined a yoga class in the UK which she discovered had links to the Atman Federation, an international yoga movement led by the Romanian guru Gregorian Bivalaru. After becoming part of the wider movement, Miranda says that she was groomed and sexually exploited. Clare hears from Miranda and from the podcast’s presenter, investigative journalist Cat McShane. From her close relationship with her mum to her mental health struggles as a teenager, 24-year-old Fiona-Lee from Howden in Yorkshire writes earnestly about the emotional rollercoaster that is adolescence to adulthood. Her EP, ‘Nothing Compares to Nineteen,’ is released on the 7th of March and she joins Clare to perform the track 'Lavender'.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Claire MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Spanish footballer Jenny Hermoso has taken the stand in the trial of Spain's former football chief Luis Rubiales, who's accused of sexual assault and coercion after Spain's victory in the 2023 World Cup when he kissed her during the medal ceremony. Rubiales denies the charges. The trial is being televised in Spain and garnering huge interest there.

We'll hear from a journalist who says this is about so much more than football. Daisy May Cooper joins me in just a moment to talk about the second series of her smash hit comedy Am I Being Unreasonable? We'll discuss allegations of trafficking and sexual exploitation linked to an international yoga movement. I'll be hearing from Miranda, who says that she was exploited by the group and its guru.

Her story is part of the BBC's Bad Guru podcast. And this is going to be great. Brilliant, fresh new music talent Fiona Lee will play live for us in the studio. Her work chronicles the emotional rollercoaster that is the journey from adolescence to adulthood and her close relationship with her mum and also the lovely gestures her mum used to make just to let her know she cared. She'd put lavender oil on her pillow when they were having

difficulty communicating through words. I'd love to hear from you this morning. Let me know how someone has shown that they cared for you in an unspoken way could be when communication became almost impossible in the teenage years or when you were going through something particularly tricky yourself you can text the program the number is 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate we're on social media at bbc woman's hour and you can email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using this number 03700 100 444. Looking forward to hearing from you. Now, the actor and writer Daisy May Cooper shot to fame with This Country,

the mockumentary about the other side of life in the Cotswolds, the story of life on council estates on the edges of those villages with the gastropubs and the hunter welly brigades. She wrote This Country and starred in it alongside her brother Charlie and it went on to win multiple BAFTAs. She was the lead in the BBC HBO show Rain Dogs and then in 2022 she co-wrote and starred in the twisting female friendship comedy thriller, Am I Being Unreasonable? It was first broadcast in September 2022 and also won the Royal Television Society Awards and BAFTA Awards as well. Fans will be very pleased to know the first episode of a second series of the dark but hugely funny story of Nick and her friends and family. It's going to be

broadcast tomorrow night on BBC One. I'm delighted to say Daisy joins me in the studio now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello my love. Thank you so much for having me. It's fantastic to have you. For those who don't know, let's talk about Am I Being Unreasonable. Your character is nick a quick synopsis if you will of the first series right so nick is somebody who is uh on paper everything should be fine she's got the house she's got the husband she's got um a son that she has a great relationship with on paper everything should be brilliant but actually there's something missing and lacking in her life. And she is sort of holding on to a big sort of family secret that she can't tell anybody. And then she ends up meeting fellow mum, Jen, who's played by my best mate, Celine Hisley, who ends up becoming this kind of confidant and becomes sort of Nick's soulmate. And from then on, it just starts kind of spiralling into chaos. Yeah, and it's dark.

And where we start in series two, the question is, has Nick got away with murder? Yes, that is the question. And I mean, I wish I could tell you. I can't. But it sort of comes in right in the middle of the action. Yeah. And you're thrown straight back into it.

Yeah. And you play alongside the wonderful Lenny Rush, who plays your son, Ollie. And he won a BAFTA for Best Male Comedy Performance for his role, as well as two Royal TV Society Awards. And he is back. And you've been quoted as saying, there's no point you showing up to work

because he's such a scene stealer. Oh, my God. I mean, I've never met anybody so talented. And he's only 15 years old. Yeah. Like, I just, it's so annoying. I mean, I think of what I was doing when I was 15. I think I was just sort of prank calling ex-boyfriends

or guys that I had a crush on at school on the landline. I think that's all I did when I was 15. And he's won BAFTAs. Yeah. And also there's a real depth to his performance and your relationship with him. You play mother and son, but there's some truly moving moments. Oh, that's so lovely. Yeah, I suppose a lot of it is sort of based on my relationship that I have with my seven year old daughter, who she's more like the parent and I'm like the child. And I and it's she she sort of likes to parent me.

She does bully me sometimes. But it's yeah, it's sort of a nice it's it's a very close relationship that they have. And I think Ollie, the character of Ollie, is a lot older than his years. Yeah, I mean, I just want to talk about, you mentioned Celine earlier and you co-created Am I Being Unreasonable with Celine Hisley and you're very old friends, aren't you?

And this is essentially a story of women who feel like they don't quite fit. Is that the story of you and Celine? Is that how you kind of got together? Because I know you met at RADA, didn't you? Yes, we did. We met at RADA and weirdly, we were both so traumatised by RADA

that we were both, we were just so, we kind of isolated ourselves. So we didn't really hang out. We sort of, we used to have a laugh by, you know, drawing silly cartoons of teachers and stuff in lessons. But apart from that, I mean, we didn't really reconnect until lockdown. And I was just having the worst time. My marriage was breaking down. I just had

a baby. I felt so lost. And she came into my life and just kind of rescued me in a way. And we were both on the same level and both really needed each other at that point. And from then on, we've just been inseparable, really. She's my saviour. Yeah, and you've written some incredible comedy together. Where did that come from? I mean, I guess you always made each other laugh back in the day. Oh, absolutely.

But you've rediscovered it. Oh, yeah. I mean, we love making each other laugh. There's nobody funnier on this planet than her. And I think it was sort of like therapy in a way. It was having to put all those awful things that had happened to us and all our deepest insecurities and trying to make something positive out of it, trying to laugh at it, I suppose. Yeah. And is that the whole kind of female experience or the mother experience? What was the kind of starting point for all of that? Oh, I think definitely the mother experience.

I mean, I just feel like I felt like everybody knew what they were doing when it came to parenting and I just had no idea. It was like everybody gets this and I don't and why am I not getting it and why do people do it so effortlessly and I really struggle having to, you know, play Sylvanian families with my kids.

I find it really boring. Why do people, you know, just bake cakes and pack their kids' lunch boxes so perfectly? And I suppose it's sort of like that. And the more women that I talk to, they say, look, we don't get it either, which is lovely. Well, this is the point, isn't it?

And kind of Motherland started that conversation in a brilliant and comedic way but even the people who project that perfection are slowly dying on the inside. Yes, absolutely. And it's the sort of thing, it's like, I suppose what really bonded me and Celine was we showed each other our cracks. And then it was like, oh, God, I get you so much. I'm feeling the same thing. At least let's just go through this together.

Am I Being Unreasonable is a strand from a forum on Mumsnet. It is. So explain that one. What would you get when you went there? Oh, Mumsnet is amazing. It's absolutely like any problem that you have, you can just go on Mumsnet. And do you know what's so funny is actually during Covid and lockdown and my marriage was breaking down and I didn't and I felt so lost and I didn't feel like I could talk to anybody about it. So I kind of did a post anonymously on the Am I Being Unreasonable forum. And these incredible women who I will never meet and they will never know that it was me sort of gave me the best advice and support. And I just thought, God, I have to use that in some way. This is my tribute to those women. They'll never know how much they helped me at that time.

And how has it changed your attitude to motherhood and your relationship with that role now then, having touched the bottom, reached out and found other women saying, you know, that's my life you're talking about. How do you go forward now? Are you less hard on yourself? I think I am. I used to have so much, I mean, self-loathing,

and I don't have that now. I'm forgiving myself a lot, and I know that because I'm doing everything that I do is from a place of love, and I might get it wrong, but I'm trying, and I'm you know trying to give my best because my kids need that from me yeah I mean during this series the filming of the second series you were pregnant and your son arrived seven weeks early seven weeks in the

middle of filming can you imagine that I mean I started having on set I was having these contraction pains I thought this can't be right I thought I was having these contraction pains. And I thought, this can't be right. I thought I was just imagining it. And I was having to lie down in the sort of the set on the bed, Nick's bed on set. And I said to my partner, I think I'm going to have to go to hospital. And then my waters broke. And he came seven weeks early early and it was really frightening and it was but but i think after going through that and then having to then kind of come out and rewrite some of the second series because we lost a lot of

the cast availability because they'd gone on to other jobs so I mean episode one is kind of a complete rewrite from yeah that's an incredible thing so you've had a premature baby and all the time you're lying there you're obviously worried about you your child but also thinking oh gosh this huge responsibility to keep this series on the road I guess it was it was really hard but now I've been through that I could get through I think I could get through, I think I could do anything now. I think you could. I could do anything apart from going on Gladiators, I don't think I'd do

very well on that. Leave that one off the list and how was it then with the cast, I mean I guess everybody was the most important thing was you and how you were and the baby was but did everybody want to be there, they wanted to pick it up again? Of course they did and they're amazing and the crew are amazing but you know it's just those things people are tied into other jobs but well I think we made it work I mean fingers crossed we made it

work but I tell you it was so much fun it was it was so much fun coming back and with a baby having you know Benji on set he's so so good. No, it was amazing. You are. I mean, people talk about Superwoman, but that really is the definition of it. I'm not joking. That's so lovely. It really is. Just tell me that every day.

Life is tough. I saw you recently, you were talking about re-watching the first series and noticing the sort of dramatic difference in your look because that was two years ago. Oh, it's so funny. Okay, so tell everybody who won't know how you looked and how you look now what was the difference what did you do well I've lost about the funny thing is season two is meant to literally happen about half an hour after

season one finished and yet I've lost about 10 stone. I've had my lips done. In some scenes, I'm pregnant. In some, I'm not. People are going to be thinking, what on earth is going on? But please, just bear with me. Just go with it. I did say to the BBC, do you think we should just put a disclaimer, like a black card saying, she's had her lips done, just go with it.

And they said, no don't don't draw any attention to it don't blame continuity it's not continuity's fault there's a really funny see i think it's an episode two where there's a flashback to to season one where it's really obvious because in season one i have no lips i have none i have none in the second i'm like Donald Duck. But it's so refreshing that you talk about it like this because so many women in the public eye, and no judgment, get work done and then pretend they haven't. So why have you gone on the sort of front foot? There's no shame, but you have taken that kind of

unashamed approach to this, haven't you? Oh, I think, but it's like the Eminem rap battle in 8 Mile. You know, if I take the mickey out of myself, it's sort of like a defence mechanism in a weird way. But, yeah, I've had all the stuff done. I've never had plastic surgery, but I've had all Botox and stuff. But I couldn't move my face, which isn't great for an actress. My agent said, yeah.

My eyebrows were so stiff. I looked like that cartoon Count Duckula. Oh, yeah. Do you remember that? I do remember Count Duckula, yeah. My eyebrows were so stiff. I looked like that cartoon Count Duckula. Oh, yeah. Do you remember that? I do remember Count Duckula, yeah. They were like triangles. No, I wouldn't do that again. Yeah, but it's moving now.

Oh, yeah, yeah. All the old lines are back. Great. So let's talk about your brother, your brother who you co-wrote this country with. He is back in this series and you have a fantastic, I mean, honestly, when you look at the kind of lineup of people who are back in this series, and people like Chelsea Peretti from Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Tom Davis from King Gary. I mean, is that such a compliment to think people must have loved the first series so much?

You get that kind of caliber of actor wanting to be in it. I think, well, sort of Jamali and Tom are friends of mine and Charlie's my brother and I basically just phoned them up and said look, please can you do me a favour and make this funnier? But Chelsea, that was insane to have her.

She's amazing. She's absolutely incredible. But yeah, so Charlie's coming back. so he's playing a character that has a mullet because I really wanted him to play a character that has a mullet and wears a shell suit

he also has a Dutch accent that he doesn't do very well so much so that we actually had to write in that he's not really Dutch in like episode 4 because he's so bad. There's lots of rewrites going on not for the reason you think. Just go with it. But we've also got, for this country fans,

Kerry and Curtin are making an appearance in Am I Being Unreasonable? So it's like a comedy crossover. The multiverse of universes collide. Fantastic. And you wrote this country with your brother and you've written this with your best friend what what does that give the writing experience I guess complete honesty and and they'll be completely honest with you if you say oh I think this really works maybe it doesn't it's rubbish I'm constantly told it's really rubbish we absolutely cannot put that in

there and get cancelled um so I get that a lot but But also, I just, I tell you what, most of it is just procrastinating. I think with Celine, we were meant to write, and the entire week we just watched Married at First Sight UK, like the entire series. And then I think on the last day, we

sat down seriously. Did that give you any material? No, not really. We hoped it would, but no. Just lazy. We're just lazy. Listen, you are such a brilliant actress as well. No, seriously, those years at RADA were not wasted. I know you didn't have a great time,

but I remember seeing you in, is it The Life and Times of David Copperfield? Oh, yes. That was so much fun. You're just great. You've got such a range. But I remember seeing you in, is it The Life and Times of David Copperfield? Oh, yes. Armando Minocchi. That was so much fun. Isn't he great? You're just great. You've got such a range.

And I read that you are adapting Hilary Mantel's funny ghost novel, beyond black. And apparently before she died, Hilary Mantel said she wanted you to play the part of the travelling medium. And I know that's something you're interested in. Oh, yes. No, absolutely. I did also get told that I wasn't allowed to tell this. And I think I just said that in an interview. So yeah, it's true. I mean, what can we do?

Yeah, so that's amazing. No, I love mediumship. I love all that psychic and all the what's beyond the veil. And what a compliment to have hillary mantel say that about you i mean what a legend and i'm just such a scumbag what was she thinking well a very talented one oh darling you're too kind and you're very generous just to finally with your characters because obviously that's what this country was all about it was bringing the humanity back and telling a different side to an experience of rural life is that what you hope to do with this series as well because touching on the imperfections of characters like yours who

you say is a narcissist based on yourself yeah but equally understanding that everyone's flawed but still lovable wonderful though everybody's flawed everybody's it and that nothing's black and white everything's gray and it's kind of embracing that and just having fun with that and because i think it's it's in the the problems and the insecurities that we actually bond it's when we're pretending everything's all right that we don't get anywhere. Just embrace it. Yeah, listen, it's been like group therapy having you in the studio.

Oh, it has. Oh, you're wonderful. Fantastic to meet you. And we will all be watching series two of Am I Being Unreasonable? It is on BBC Live tomorrow and on BBC iPlayer as well. Daisy May Cooper, thanks for dropping by.

Thank you, my darling. Have a great day. I know you've got lots of other interviews in store, but thank you so much for dropping by. Thank you, Nell. Now, let's talk about Spanish footballer Jenny Hermoso. She's given evidence at the trial of Spain's former football chief, Luis Rubiales.

He's accused of sexual assault and coercion after he kissed her during the medal ceremony when Spain won the 2023 World Cup final. Luis Rubiales denies the charges. At the time, he said the kiss had been consensual and denounced a so-called witch hunt by fake feminism before resigning from his position. Here's a snippet of Jenny speaking in court yesterday. Jenny there saying that she felt disrespected and that it was a

moment that tarnished one of the happiest days of her life. Well, to hear more about what Jenny said and the personal impact of the case on her had been, I'm joined by Semra Hunter, a sports broadcast journalist living in Spain. Semra, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for having me. So let's go into a little bit more detail of what Jenny Amorso said in court yesterday. Well, there was quite a lot. She spoke for two and a half hours, so I'll try and give as brief a summary as I possibly can to extend on what you've already mentioned. She wanted to reiterate the fact that she in no way,

shape or form gave consent to Luis Rubiales at any time for him to plant that kiss on her. She also spoke about how she didn't feel protected or really looked after whatsoever by anyone at the Federation. No one ever came to check on her, to ask her about her well-being, if she was OK, and nobody apologized to her. In fact, it was quite the opposite. She spoke about how she felt a lot of pressure from several people within the Federation to come out and to back Luis Rubiales and to really play it down as though it was no big deal, to say that it was consensual and to try and let him off the hook, essentially. And she also spoke about the massive impact that it had on her life when she got back into Spain, how she was under constant media attention with cameras at her house night and day, following her around the streets.

It had a huge psychological impact on her. She had to start seeing a psychologist to speak about all of the emotions and how difficult it was to navigate everything that was happening at the time. So much so that she decided to leave Spain. She moved to Mexico. That's where she lives now. That's where she's been playing a football because she said it was just so untenable that her life was put on hold. She couldn't live freely in Spain anymore. So I think most importantly was that she was very consistent in what she'd been saying all along from start to finish over the last year and a half.

And it was nice to see that she felt she could speak so comfortably and so freely in such detail as to everything that had happened, considering that all of those people, of course, Luis Rubiales included, were there in court watching her. There's a lot of interest in this trial in Spain. It's being televised, isn't it? A huge interest. And for so many different reasons, just to highlight a few, obviously, a lot of people feel as though this was a national embarrassment because it wasn't just the kiss. There was also Luis Rubiales in the stands, as you may well remember, standing next to the Queen and the Queen's daughter, and he grabbed his crotch after they won the world cup um obviously there was the kiss itself too so a lot of people just feel as though it's a national stain his behavior because it has tainted what was supposed to be one of the

the most glorious moments in sporting history for the country and of course spain are hosting the world cup in a few years so there's a huge amount of pressure for this to be concluded, I think, in the best way possible, whatever that may be. But I think most importantly, there's a lot of people watching because in so many ways, this transcends sport. This is so much bigger than Gianni Armoso and bigger than Luis Rubiales. It's about women fighting to be heard, to be believed, to be seen whenever they come forward. And they say that they've been sexually abused or that they have been sexually harassed or that there has been sexual violence against them. And this is a fight that has been going on for so many years in Spain.

And the feminist movement has really picked up a lot of momentum in the last 20 years, let's say, has really picked up a lot of steam and a lot of force and a lot of support, not just from women, but from men and from people all across society. And so she's become a symbol of that because many women haven't had their day in court. They haven't had their justice because they were belittled or they were ridiculed or they were gaslit. They were not made to believe that they would have any support and that they could come forward and actually get the justice that they deserve. So on the one hand, Jenny Hermoso is a symbol of that, but she's also a beacon of hope. She's a beacon of hope that if, in fact, she does get that justice, if she does win in court, then other women in the future can

also have their day in court and feel confident that they will be believed and that they will also get their justice too. So it sounds like there's the whole of Spanish society is looking at this case as a watershed moment. Absolutely. I mean, this is huge because it could be so transformative for Spanish society and for Spanish culture. Very briefly, just to give you a backstory as to what the actual law is being on trial here, is the only yes is yes. Only in Spanish, it's solo si es si. Basically, it's a new law that was put into place in 2022. It came in the aftermath of a huge case in 2016 that didn't quite go as well as people would have liked. And so what it essentially did was to tighten up the rules and the laws as it relates to sexual aggression, abuse and violence. And the whole core of it is around consent. It's

very black and white. If there was no consent, then it's legally now considered to be sexual aggression, and so on. If there was consent, then that's a different story. This is the first time that this law is actually being put on trial. And I think that's why so many people are watching to see what happens. Because if in fact, it does go in Janine Moss's favour, then I guess it's a way of saying that the law actually works. Whereas before these laws were quite loose, they weren't that strict, and there weren't really severe punishments. So it's almost like the law itself is being put on trial too. And I think very, very many people across the country are fascinated to see what happens ultimately.

Semra, good to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining us on Women's Hour. Semra Hunter there, sports broadcast journalist living in Spain. We will bring you some music shortly and thank you for all the texts coming in on gestures, those unspoken gestures that someone has given to you or maybe you have given to your child. We'll get to some of those in a moment because that's what I'm going to be talking about with Fiona Lee. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. We're going to talk about this now. The podcast we are about to hear about has uncovered some extremely shocking allegations of grooming, trafficking and sexual exploitation linked, excuse me, to a yoga movement. The BBC's Bad Guru podcast follows Miranda, who joined a class at Tara Yoga in the UK.

Like many women, she enjoyed the physical and mental health benefits that yoga offers. Miranda discovered that the group had links to the Atman Federation, which is an international yoga movement led by the Romanian guru Gregorian Bivaloru. After becoming part of the wider movement miranda says that she was groomed and sexually exploited over the course of the podcast miranda tells the story of her experience which includes taking part in sexualized rituals at a yoga festival also giving topless massages and traveling to the czech Republic to work as a cam girl for an online pornography business. Miranda also explains that she was taken to Paris to give an initiation

with the guru himself Gregorian Bivolaru which involved having sex with him. Now Gregorian Bivolaru has now been arrested and charged in France where a judge is now considering offences including trafficking, rape and a French anti-cult offence of organised abuse of weakness by members of a sect. Well you can hear the whole Miranda story in the Bad Guru podcast on BBC Sounds and on Radio 4. It includes some very serious and disturbing allegations that we're going to discuss here on Woman's Hour. I should mention now that the interview you are about to hear includes graphic details of sexual exploitation that some listeners may find upsetting. I spoke to Miranda alongside the podcast presenter, investigative journalist Kat McShane. And when I spoke to her, I asked Miranda

how an enjoyable yoga class turned into something more troubling. I've been practicing yoga for several years and I'd already found that it had offered immense benefit to my life at that stage. I was calmer, I was happier and I was on a search for meaning and for a better way to live life. As you became more involved with the wider yoga group, the Atman Federation, you went to a yoga festival in Romania, which then opened up a whole new aspect to your story. Tell us what happened. I would say that the whole new aspect was actually opened before that. So when I went to the polarity camp in Somerset which is run by Tara and also open to non-students or was at that point that's when I began to understand that there were

sexual and sexually suggestive practices involved and I found it quite shocking. But I'd also been experiencing things which I perceived at the time as very positive. I was forming friendships. I trusted my teachers. I was experiencing the benefits of being part of a community where you practice yoga together. And I also joined an advanced women's group. And it was there that I was invited to the Kostinesht yoga camp, and I was told that I could attend for free,

and if I stayed in this special women's villa, which I was told would be like a long women's group, which was not an accurate description. I wasn't given any other details or indication of the activities that I'd be expected to partake in there. And what were those activities? So from the outset my phone was taken from me my passport I was told that I could use my phone when I left the building and I could take my passport when I left and we had to do a series of naked photos uh videos this is they make it seem very um non-sexual and quite they're very extremely matter-of-fact about it

you're holding a piece of paper you're turning in specific ways it It doesn't, you're naked, but they don't overtly sexualize it. To, this is supposedly to read your aura. We had to do multiple meditations of connection to the Guru Bivalaru. We had to watch hours of video footage of him supposedly performing miracles. We had to watch testimony of women who we knew um who had uh taken part in in this uh initiation we weren't told what the initiation was um the women were naked but

we you know we'd done the videos and the photos naked so there wasn't the direct link with being naked and a sexual initiation um and at no point did you think what's going on here i feel uncomfortable about this i felt uncomfortable with several things um and i found several things mind-numbingly boring but my teachers were there at the camp telling me how wonderful it was that I was in the villa. It was a really special privilege. I would learn a lot there. There were many other things that I was enjoying. It was exciting to feel that you were part of this huge international community with thousands of people from all over the world. At what point were you asked to perform semi-naked massages?

So Tara Yoga Centre offers training in tantra massage. So it was not long after my return that I followed the path that my friends were already on and that I was told that my teachers either were currently doing or had done, which was to do karma yoga, which is their term for volunteering, which they spoke extensively about the benefits of on the courses, to do karma yoga at the temple, as they called it. Karma yoga being? Being volunteering, selfless service.

Selfless service involving topless massages. Yes. Okay. And again, is it because it was all packaged up in the wider experience that you thought, okay, I don't feel comfortable about this bit, but I'm getting so much more out of the rest of it that I'm going to stick with it? Yeah. out of the rest of it that I'm going to stick with it. Yeah, for example, I was attracted to the idea that Tantra as a discipline, as a practice,

would offer me a new way of having sex and relationships, that it would be more fulfilling, more profound, more spiritual, less objectifying. And they made a lot of promises yeah it was an appealing um an appealing offer to women because it it offered it spoke about uh sexual liberation which was simultaneously part of a spiritual path and uh and sacred and we were told that using our sexual energy in the karma yoga activity, the massage, would offer us a whole range of benefits and that this was part of the spiritual path. Where this eventually led to was an initiation with the Atman Federation's guru

Gregorian Bivalaru. If you don don't mind can you tell us about that? So I was recruited by students of Tara in the UK via text message and then I travelled with some other women to the outskirts of Paris and we were given dark glasses and a hat to put over our eyes. My passport was taken from me, my phone, my bank cards. I was told to lie to everyone I knew about where I was and upon arrival there's a deeper grooming procedure for women for whom it's their first time including the watching of pornographic material um signing of contracts signing of declarations including statements like I was not raped I was not trafficked so you know I always say to people if someone had told me in my first yoga class or my first month of tantra classes there's a sexual initiation and you know you're going to have to

do this and that I would have walked straight out the door. But this was very gradual over a period of time. And because it was done by a group and not just an individual, there was a constant socio-emotional strengthening. The potential lost relationship, if you backed out, wasn't with just one person. It was with your whole community. And not just that, but your whole faith and belief system. What happened with him? So we were taken at a certain point to his apartment with no prior warning.

We had a couple of hours to prepare ourselves. So I was very nervous about it. And I thought to myself, if I changed my mind at this point, literally, what would I do? I don't know where I am. No one knows where I am. I'm here just with this would I do I don't know where I am no one knows where I am I'm here just with this plastic bag I don't know where my passport is I don't have any money I don't have a phone um so he opened the door and he hugged me and I thought

I feel physically repulsed I would not choose to have a sexual interaction with this man and then the doctrine came in you're being superficial you're being shallow you need to transfigure him transfiguration is a practice that we were taught from the the first the first year of seeing people in their their ultimate light not as not as their physical appearance. And I thought, you know, if I back out of this, I will have failed the initiation. People often spoke very negatively about women who had failed the initiation. And I'd potentially lose everything. Whereas I'd been told by my teachers, by my friends,

that if I went ahead with it, it would be a huge spiritual leap because this was an enlightened master. What did you understand about consent at this point and your consent? So at this point, as part of the doctrine, we were told that consent was not necessary if you had done a consecration. So they had taught us that consent was one of the many, you know, things that caused division between men and women, that caused, it came from the mental plane and from your ego. And if you did this consecration, then everything that you did after that would be okay, basically, because the karma, the results of your action were accepted by the divine, by the universe. What I understand now is that consent needs to be fully informed, freely given by someone in their rational right mind.

And none of those things were the case for me at that point I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable but when you obviously you did you you consented in a way that you know now isn't consent yes to what to a sexual initiation and to the technique, which is the drinking of his urine, his drinking of my urine, which is one of his kind of ultimate goals. Because all abuse is about power, and this was one of the ways in which he could very tangibly exert his power and influence over other people by getting them to believe in his doctrine around this and to participate in it.

When did you realise that it wasn't this divine intervention and you should give yourself freely. When did you realise? So it was a difficult thing to realise. In many ways, it would have been much easier for me, even if I had left the movement and, you know, never spoken out, never gone to the police. It would have been much easier because I would have been able to maintain the illusion that somehow I had done all of those things because I wanted to and I thought they were okay and I still thought

that they were okay and I would have never had to talk to anyone about it I would have never had to explain myself or put myself in the vulnerable position of saying hey hey, I was wrong. So it was a gradual process over about six months. And in the beginning, I started to do activities with other spiritual teachers, and I realised that the group was extremist. I was also dating someone at the time who told me one day, you know, what if it's not everyone else who's the problem? What if it's Bival else who's the problem? What if it's Bivalaru who's the problem?

And told me that I was brainwashed. And I was extremely angry. I was not ready to hear it at the time. But it sank in over a number of months. How are you now? You know, it's been three years since I left and different years have brought different challenges. I have a CPTSD diagnosis. So there are some things which are triggering. There are some symptoms which present more often than others. But on my journey, what's helped me, and this will be different for everyone emerging from a situation with coercive control, what's helped me is to take action and to speak out. Because one of the things that coercive control does is it isolates you and it controls your voice. And women's voices are controlled in and repressed in very many arenas. So you know,

I was under a vow of silence. So as soon as I broke that, I started, I was very scared initially. But then every time that I spoke, I felt that I reclaimed myself. I reclaimed my power. I reclaimed my voice. We did ask Tara Yoga, where you first went to the yoga classes, for a response. They didn't get back to us in time for this interview, but a statement on their website says this. We unequivocally condemn any form of abuse and actively teach against it in all our courses and activities they also say that membership and participation in our organization is entirely voluntary members are free to discontinue their involvement at any

time and also we asked the atman federation for a response they've shared a statement saying they categorically condemn any kind of abuse. They also say our teachings educate people on how to transform their sexual instincts into pure eroticism that is to be based on mutual love, profound respect and tenderness towards each other and first and foremost the conscious choice and consent before being intimate with one another. I'm going to bring in Kat McShane now, who is the presenter of the podcast, to give us context. Kat, welcome to Woman's Hour. How did you find this story? It was January 2021. I had been put in touch with someone very important to this story.

Her name is Laura Hancock, and she is the head of the yoga teachers union and she also was a yoga teacher living in Oxford and she had been hearing accounts from ex-students that had deeply concerned her one of those was from a woman who had received an invitation to see Bivalaro in Paris. And Laura wanted to work with a journalist to explore what the story was. She had heard serious allegations and to get the story out. And Miranda isn't the only woman you have spoken to for this podcast. Tell me about the other women you spoke to and their experiences. So in total, I think I spoke to 10 women who had been invited to Paris

and then at least 15 to 20 people who were ex-students of Tara. And there were breakthrough moments across that period of speaking to people. One breakthrough moment was the first person who had first-hand experience of the initiation. And her name is Beck, and she is Australian. She had encountered Bivalari's movement whilst in India and been drawn in to eventually having an initiation with him. We suddenly realised this is a very international story.

It goes back across many years, and we're probably talking about a lot of women here. And another woman that we hear from in the podcast that had quite a profound impact on me is a young woman called Harriet. She was just 22 when she joined Tara Yoga in London. She was at a crossroads in her life. She was looking for a supportive community. Within weeks of joining Tara Yoga London, she was suddenly going out with a much, much older man who was a senior member of the school who encouraged her to work at the Ecstatic Joy Temple, giving these massages that she considers sex work,

which she had to do in skimpy underwear and I strongly felt when I spoke to her that this was someone who had been targeted and was someone whose vulnerability and naivety and youth and beauty probably had been taken advantage of. And you're deep in this story for years now what's your understanding of this? I think that the community that the schools offer is extremely attractive and supportive. It gradually takes up more and more of people's lives. And as Miranda said, the prospect of leaving that community becomes quite devastating. So there is certainly that element of it. Over time, it became clear that there was a pattern,

whether that was here in the UK or elsewhere in other schools affiliated to the Outman Federation, that started just like for Miranda, just like for Harriet, joining a yoga school, looking for some community, looking for some spiritual and health benefits. These are very human desires that many of us share. And over time, it appeared to me that some people, some women were particularly singled out for special treatment. And from there, it's a sort of very short hop to being invited to see the guru in Paris and have that initiation. From there, you are at the darkest heart of the movement and you are vulnerable to being further exploited by that

movement and for some people that includes doing cam girl work and the effects of that on women can be devastating it is not that there's something wrong in doing cam girl work particularly, but they didn't make a choice to do it. And they often, well, in Miranda's case, she wasn't told that's what she was going to do. I have to say, Gregorian Bivalaru has been arrested and charged in France with offences including trafficking and rape. Kat, what's happening with the case now? So, yes, he was arrested in November 2023. It was a huge police operation. Sites across Paris

and wider France were raided. And those charges, rape, human trafficking, and also on an anti-cult law, that evidence is being assessed by a judge at the moment. I understand it could take some time before a judgment is made and some time before a trial is held. And I know that that has caused, you know, a lot of frustration for the women involved, some of whom have had to go back to Paris multiple times to share their experience there, which of course is a re-traumatising event. What do you want to be the end game of all of this, Miranda? It's a very painful thing that you've done, talking about it. What do you want to come out of this?

There are many changes which I believe need to happen in the yoga and wellness sector. The Yoga Teachers union supported me and I went to the police. Other than that, there was no one. So I believe that regulation is urgently needed. Many people are being referred to yoga and wellness practices who are, even by their GPs, more and more people are experiencing social isolation mental illness issues and they're being casually referred to yoga. I also want people to have a better understanding and for there also to be a better legal understanding of coercive control and how it works in groups and how it works when combined with spiritual belief systems.

Currently, coercive control is criminalised in the UK, but group coercive control is not as such. One of my aims with the civil case, which I'm currently working on, is to create new legislation so that others in the future will be protected and so that these organisations and the people who support them will be held to account. Thank you so much for coming to the Woman's Hour studio to tell your story, Miranda, and Kat McShane as well, who presents the Bad Guru podcast.

Thank you both so much. And you can hear Bad Guru on BBC Radio 4 tonight at nine o'clock or on BBC Sounds. If you have been affected by any of the issues that we've been discussing, you can find help and support via the BBC Action Line. Gregorian Bivalaru has been charged with offences including trafficking and rape

and the case is now in front of a judge in a French court. He has not been convicted of any of these offences. The statement that the Atman Federation shared with Woman's Hour claims he has been the victim of a series of attacks and strongly defends him, saying everybody should benefit from the presumption of innocence. No one at Miranda's UK-based yoga group Tara Yoga has been charged with a criminal offence and since we recorded the interview Tara Yoga has told Woman's Hour that they condemn all forms of abuse and that due to these matters being subject to legal proceedings in which Tara Yoga Centre will vigorously defend the allegations made against us.

It would be inappropriate to provide any further comment until said proceedings have come to a conclusion. Moving on, my next guest is a singer-songwriter who very much pours her heart and soul into her music, from her close relationship with her mum to her mental health struggles as a teenager. 24-year-old Fiona Lee is from Howden in Yorkshire. She writes earnestly about the emotional rollercoaster that is adolescence into adulthood. Her EP, Nothing Compares to 19, is set to be released mere weeks from now on the 7th of March

and delighted to say Fiona joins me in the studio. Hello. Hey, how how you doing? Hello all the way over there. Welcome to Women's Hour. Very exciting year for you. How does it feel to finally be releasing your EP? Oh, it's amazing. I've been working on it for a really long time so it just feels like a really big

achievement and I'm so excited for people to hear the songs. Well, we need to get to that pronto, but just before you sing for us, you're going to perform a song. Well, we need to get to that pronto. But just before you sing for us, you're going to perform a song called Lavender. So to set the mood, tell us what the thinking was behind this one. So the song Lavender is about my relationship with my mum.

I wrote it when I was having a really hard time with health anxiety. It was really fully just consuming me. And I was living at my parents house at the time um so I guess it's kind of about how my mum just brought a lot of comfort during that time and um you know I just wanted to be protected and held really so that's what I wrote it about and this is your tribute to her yeah so let's hear it let's hear it for your mum I wish it wasn't just me clapping in here people are clapping all over the country that was incredible what's your mum's name Bev

Bev that one's for you Bev that's so emotional as a mother I'm sitting there thinking how did she respond when you played that to her um honestly I can't remember I think she was probably a bit emotional I'll bet she was and how was your relationship with your't remember. I think she was probably a bit emotional. I'll bet she was. And how was your relationship with your mother? I mean, I think we hear all we need to know in that song. It's great. I mean, like I say, because it was written about health anxiety, that's something that is such a difficult thing to help someone with

when they're going through it. But, yeah, she was great and just, you know, just being there and, yeah. It's those little gestures. It's the lavender sprig that she put on your pillow. Yeah, yeah, just to help me And just, you know, just being there. And yeah. It's those little gestures. It's the lavender sprig that she put on your pillow. Just to help me sleep better and calm me down. We're great. Too right you are. Too right.

Thank you. Thank you, Fiona. Brilliantly having you in the studio. Fiona Lee, the track Lavender from her EP, Nothing Compares to 19. Good luck with it all. We're lucky to hear you. Thanks for bringing your music to us here on Woman's Hour. And we were asking you for those little unspoken gestures

of love and solidarity. Carrie from Chorley says, whenever me and my daughter had a fallout, she would never apologise. Instead, she would make me a cup of tea and buy me a Freddo chocolate bar. I knew it was her apology. She knew it was her apology, but we didn't speak.

And this from Anna in in hampshire when i was exploring adhd diagnosis at 43 my parents trying to defend me and perhaps themselves said to my partner you'll never convince convince me she has adhd uh when i received the diagnosis my dad then sent me a key fob that tracked my keys from my phone. It was beautiful. It was a wordless way of showing they accepted and wanted to help me. Anna, thank you very much. And thank you for listening to Woman's Hour. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Alex Kretosky. And I'm Kevin Fong.

How do you feel about AI? Does it scare you? Very quickly, that question comes up. You know, is it going to think for us? Does it excite you? I say, how is the AI going to help us to think better? Do you worry about how it'll change your life, your job, your kids? AI is built into many of the software applications that we now use in schools every day. In every episode of The Artificial Human from BBC Radio 4, Kevin and I are here to help.

We will chart a course through the world of AI and we will answer your questions. It doesn't just lie, but it lies in an incredibly enthusiastic, convincing way. That ability to be able to kind of think critically is just going to be so important as we move forward. The Artificial Human with me, Alex Kratosky. And me, Kevin Fong. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.