Woman's Hour - Dame Barbara Woodward; Maggie Oliver on police apology to grooming victims

Episode Date: April 13, 2022

Throughout April the UK holds the presidency of the United Nation’s Security Council as the world focuses its attention on the war in Ukraine. The woman who takes on that role is Dame Barbara Woodward who’s the UK’s Permanent Representative to the UN. She talks to Emma about her priorities and plans for a new global code of conduct to improve the pursuit of justice for survivors of conflict-related sexual violence. The Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police has met and personally apologised to three victims of grooming gangs in Rochdale for failures in the investigation of the sexual exploitation of children. The apology comes exactly a decade after the 2012 trial that resulted in some members of the gangs being convicted for their crimes. We hear from Maggie Oliver, the former detective who blew the whistle on the police’s failure to tackle these crimes.Two new authors, Georgina Scull and Tanya Shadrick, both open their books with a description of how they came very close to death in their thirties. The experience changed them radically. Their books are Regrets of the Dying and The Cure for Sleep. They join Emma to talk about what they have learnt.This week, Alice Walker from Derbyshire became the oldest female winner of the BBC quiz show Mastermind. She was 66 when the grand final was recorded - she has turned 67 now, and joins Emma to talk about her specialist subject the Peak District and Morris dancing in clogs.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Do women care more about rule-breaking than men? The Prime Minister is said to be mortified, according to one of his ministers, put out to talk to my colleagues on the Today programme this morning, over receiving a fine for attending an illegal gathering in Number 10 during lockdown. We're still unclear whether he accepts he misled Parliament, which is a breach

of the ministerial code requiring resignation. What we are clear about is that Boris Johnson is not resigning. This is despite some pointing out that lawmakers shouldn't be lawbreakers and that he is the first sitting prime minister to break the law. After the so-called Partygate story started to emerge, broken by Pippa Creara in the Daily Mirror at the start of this year, a voting intention poll showed women were more likely to be turning away from the Conservative Party than men. We talked about that sentiment you may remember and that difference at the time on the programme and some of you trying to explain that discrepancy between the sexes offered theories. Some of you put it down to the greater caring responsibilities many women had faced during lockdown and the anger that had been prompted because of that.

Others talked about women being more concerned about following rules. Others amongst you didn't care a jot and still don't probably. A feeling that may have intensified especially in the context of the Ukraine war. I know we also have a lot of men that listen to you. Good morning to you too. And I wanted to test that sentiment this morning in light of those fines issued to the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and Carrie Johnson, the Prime Minister's wife. Do you care? Does it matter? What do you want to happen? Do you want the Prime Minister to go, to stay? What about the Chancellor? I should say at this point, we don't know the other names. And this isn't the end of the fines either. Text me

here at Woman's Hour 84844. Perhaps things have changed for you. If you have changed your mind on this, either way, it'd be very interesting to hear why and what's changed it. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. Looking forward to your responses and some of your reasoning too, just to try, as I say, to test that sentiment. Also on today's programme, how two women who came close to death are living their quote-unquote second lives. Some lessons to be learned there, I hope, for all of us.

Our woman in the United Nations, Dame Barbara Woodward, on how she's using her presidency, the UK's presidency, of the UN Security Council. And what is it like to get a perfect score on Mastermind in your specialist subject? Alice Walker, the competition's oldest female winner, will also be joining me on today's programme. But first, a major apology. Ten years late. Yesterday afternoon, the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, Stephen Watson, met and personally apologised to three victims of grooming gangs in Rochdale for failures in the investigation of the sexual exploitation of children. The apologies, which have now been

published online, you can read them in full, come a decade after the trial that resulted in some, but by no means all, members of these gangs being convicted for crimes that took place between 2008 and 2012 against children as young as 13. These three women, now in their 20s, have also received what's been described as substantial damages. The case was brought against the police by the Centre for Women's Justice and the former Detective Constable Maggie Oliver, an officer who worked on that investigation, you may remember resigned from Greater Manchester Police in 2012 to publicly speak out against what she recognised as gross failures to safeguard these victims. Maggie's with me now. Good morning.

Good morning, Emma. Too little, too late with this apology? Yeah, better late than never is what I would say. And I am grateful that finally we have a public acknowledgement and apology for these three young women. The harm that's been done, Emma, can never be undone. And when I sat there yesterday with these three young women. The harm that's been done, Emma, can never be undone. And when I sat there yesterday with these three young women, who have become like my own children over this 10-year period, I felt vindicated. But I also feel really angry that it's taken 10 years to get this

apology. The previous two chief constables refused to engage or even consider that anything was done that was wrong. But these girls, these children were victims. They were vulnerable. They were failed. They deserve protection. And right from the day that I began to speak out about this, when I was a serving police officer, Emma,

I was just saying what they apologized for yesterday so actually it is too little too late but my reward was sitting there yesterday with Amber and seeing her face when for the very first time there has been a public acknowledgement that she was a victim that all the abuse that time there has been a public acknowledgement that she was a victim, that all the abuse that she suffered has been recorded and crimed, that she is the same as all the other children and they apologise for not treating her that way. So too little too late, but I do hope that it's not just an empty apology, that it leads to changes in how victims and survivors are treated from now on.

And if I may, I was just going to say, you know, I started by saying, is it too little, too late? Of course, in many ways it is. But as you say, it is very important to have this acknowledgement. Why do you think the other chief constables couldn't do it? Because institutions like the police, the first thing they do when they are challenged even when they're wrong is close ranks and defend the indefensible they protect the organization they are unwilling to say sorry it's such a little word but it makes such a phenomenal difference um and you know they've got very powerful legal departments and you've just said that this was a two or a three year battle this has been a 10 year battle no no of

course i meant with the specific court elements of this and how that's been playing out but you're right this is a decade of these women's lives and also people like yourself trying to to tell the public about it yeah i mean um i took the girls, more or less the day after I resigned, I went to seek legal advice for them. The first lawyers allowed legal time limits to run out. So when I went to the Centre for Women's Justice in Harriet Worcester, we actually were on a back foot because we were really legally not able to take action.

This is only half of the action because the CPS have, there have been legal proceedings issued against the CPS as well and they are unwilling to acknowledge their failures and or even apologize and when you add that Emma to the news again yesterday that rapes are not being charged, that children, child abuse is not being prosecuted when we have the the head of the cps still insisting that the way these children were treated in rochdale is okay well i fear for the future because to bring about change you have to acknowledge the failures and what they have done to these children and to me is actually unforgivable and it could have all been avoided

but the police are powerful they are unaccountable. I hope that Stephen Watson really is going to bring in changes that are sadly very much needed. Of course, the police would say they have watchdogs that look over them, that do keep them to account. But we have also been hearing many cases of recent reviews where that also hasn't happened. You brought up the CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service. We did request a statement from them with regards to, as you have described it, the CPS not having apologised yet and that case ongoing. And a CPS spokesperson said, as there are ongoing court proceedings in this matter,

it would not be appropriate to comment. You're smiling at that. I'm smiling because this doesn't need to go to a court procedure. All they need to say is they're sorry. And why don't you think the CPS will say sorry? I mean, there'll be people, of course, who are not as familiar with how the police and the CPS interact, but they are separate, but they are very interlinked.

For exactly the reason I've just said, Emma, because they protect the organisation you know empty words are easy they come on the national news and they say that victims today are being treated better well they're not you know my work in the Maggie Oliver Foundation today I'm talking about this case but in the foundation we are dealing with multiple cases today of victims and survivors being failed by the criminal justice system who come to the foundation in desperation. Which, just as you mentioned about yesterday,

has been the subject of, I mean the government has apologised, said it's going to do better, but what you were referring to yesterday was of a parliamentary committee report looking at the current prosecutions and the current way those who are alleging that crimes have happened in this space

and they are not content with changes that are being made or not being made and are very concerned about it. If I can just Maggie to bring this back to these individual women and these specific apologies. The apologies are quite jaw-dropping in some of the detail aren't they and and i just wondered what particularly struck you about them i i actually feel that um i could have written these letters 10 years ago because this was what i was telling the chief constable then um so reading these i felt um it was exactly it was actually a very emotional meeting it was really emotional to see these girls sitting there and know the road we've travelled together and that finally they will have these letters. Amber said that she was going to frame this letter

and put it on her wall because it's the first time she's publicly been acknowledged as a victim, and she was. Because it's extraordinary, again, for those who are not as familiar with this, that those who were children were not treated like they could be victims. The entanglement of their lives, it was like they were treated like they had agency, they knew what they were doing and yet they were being abused by men. I mean, if anybody who understands what grooming and child abuse is, knows that these children are vulnerable.

They are frightened. They are being coerced and controlled. And when you think that a woman who is, say, married and being at gunpoint, who terrify the wits out of them, lock them in houses, in standing up for themselves? are picked up in circumstances that should open questions in any ordinary person's mind, not even a police officer. You know, it makes me despair that it's taken 10 years to acknowledge those failures. And there are some specific details as well. And this is quite distressing, but I do think it's worth picking out just one of the details because it was, as you say, an emotional meeting with a lot of information conveyed.

One girl was 13 and pregnant and the police gathered DNA. Again, as I say, this is distressing, but from her terminated fetus without her knowledge or consent. You know, Emma, I was the one who had to tell Ruby that we had a fetus that had been locked in a freezer for two years, that the police and the social services had attended her termination and seized that fetus, not telling her mum, not telling her, and they did nothing with it. Now, to the everlasting credit of Ruby and her mum, they then gave permission for that fetus to be examined for DNA. The man who got her pregnant was 40 years old, three children, married. The CPS chose not to even charge him with rape. They chose to charge him with sexual activity with a child. And he was out of prison in less than three years.

The first time she knew he was out of prison was when she bumped into him in the local supermarket because probation hadn't contacted, hadn't sought her opinion about whether he should be released. But the CPS made the decision to charge him with sexual activity with a child. It should have been rape. He should have been in prison for many, many years. And those are the failures that we are asking the cps to look at and apologize for and say they are not going to repeat these same failures again but they're unwilling to do that but the damage to to ruby emma will never go away um i should say i should say also you're mentioning uh different names here of individuals they have the right to be anonymous uh for life

these are these are names that are used uh in lieu of their their real identities i just wanted to different names here of individuals. They have the right to be anonymous for life. These are names that are used in lieu of their real identities. I just wanted to also make that clear. And what about the expunging of criminal records? Because, of course, these girls, as they were now women, have criminal records, some of them. They shouldn't because they weren't treated like victims. And that has therefore impacted their life and their ability to move on and have jobs yeah massively and i have to say that um the steven watson the chief constable yesterday was really supportive of our um comments that this

should be changed that the law should be changed to overturn that. And he said that he would support that campaign going forward because these criminal convictions stay with them for the rest of their lives. One of those three young women has been trying to get a job in social care. She's been trying to go to college. And because as a child she went to prison, actually she was arrested in the company of her abusers um driving a car that she wasn't supposed to drive she didn't even have a license and that criminal conviction has stayed on her record forever um and because of that

she can never get a college course or work with vulnerable people can that be expunged in the law at the moment, no. But it needs to be addressed. It needs to be changed. Again, this isn't the end, is it? You know, it's an apology a decade on. I know that you've mentioned the Maggie Oliver Foundation. That is what you now spend your time focusing on and helping others.

So there are other issues going on all the time that you will see. But this is still going to continue. Maggie, our time together is very much nearly over, but I do just want to ask you one more question. And some of the women who listen, especially to this programme, may be able to identify with this in their lives, albeit in different circumstances. You were told, weren't you, that you were being emotional.

It was in your head. It was not how it was, what you were saying about the police. You were effectively gaslit by your own organisation, weren't you? How important was yesterday for you? It was a monumental day for me, Emma. You know, for the chief constable to say I was a woman who became emotionally involved. I'd lost the plot. I'd been bereaved. I actually was threatened with prison and being arrested yesterday was a big deal. And actually, I did say to the chief constable, where's my apology? You know, where is my apology? Because I have lost 10 years of my life fighting for these principles. But it gave me some satisfaction to know that finally my police force has acknowledged that actually I was right from day one.

Yeah, different chief constable again, as we said. Did he apologise? To me, no. Would you ever rejoin the police, Maggie? No, I'm too old, but no, I wouldn't. I feel that I can do far more for victims. You're not too old. Maybe we need you back in there, Maggie.

Come on. It's a foundation, Emma. We are actually to build relationships. I know, I know. And you are doing great work. But don't say that. We've got we've got the oldest woman to win Mastermind coming on shortly. Only at 67, I should say, 66 when she won it. We will talk again. But Maggie Oliver, thank you very much for coming on. Thank you. There you go. We often report on stories, but it's not necessarily over as you can hear.

But what happens next is also very important to share with you we wanted to make sure we brought that to you and gave it due prominence and many messages coming in going back to the law in a different sense about what should happen next with the prime minister i asked you are women more concerned about rule breaking than men because we saw that in some of the polling soon after those party gates stories broke i have to say the first two messages that we received that I've certainly got here published from men show that the men that we do have these messages from, first of all, but then it changes, are not bothered. I'm a man. I'm not bothered by the rule breaking.

They should both definitely stay, Chancellor and Prime Minister. The country needs stability. This is all political infighting. Another one here from Robert who says, I think cake and wine after a really hard day's work in the office is a storm in the teacup. There are bigger issues and Ukraine needs our full attention. And then it changes. We get some more messages and we get some messages from some women.

I'm not saying all women will agree with this, but let me just see what we've got here. I said it's a bit of a sentiment test. It's not very scientific, but it's what we've got. One of the first things we tell small children is to tell the truth. Our leaders cannot be above the law. One from Kate. Johnson and Sunak must go.

They're proven liars. Of course Johnson should go, says Sue. He's never been fit for office because of his disregard for the truth. How can he demand respect now, either at home or internationally? He's a disgrace. Johnson should go. Yes, the rest are also found guilty, but he told lies to the House of Commons, says Anne. I definitely, reads this other message, have not got over that the Prime Minister and members of his government parting and flouting the rules they made. They're only sorry they were caught out. They treated us with contempt and continue

to do so with these apologies. Catherine says, I care about the constant lying that's followed the rule breaking, which was so wrong. To say I continue to be disgusted is an understatement, Catherine says, Design primarily for the lies. The Ukraine argument is nonsense. And so it goes on. Many, many more messages. Thank you very much for taking the time as always. 84844 is a number you need to text and of course on social media and via our website too. But you just brought up Jonathan Ukraine. Let's get to that. stranger to firsts. She was the first woman to be our ambassador to China, now one of the UK's most senior diplomats. She's effectively our woman in the UN. And during the month of April, the UK is the chair of the United Nations Security Council, a role that rotates between countries on a monthly basis. And one of the actions Dame Barbara Woodward has chosen to take while the world focuses on the war in Ukraine is to launch a new code with regards to how countries prosecute and handle sexual violence used in conflict. A code which launches today and is ever more needed as we increasingly learn about Russian soldiers raping Ukrainian women. In fact, yesterday,

one of my colleagues was speaking to the Ukraine Human Rights Commissioner, and she told the BBC that 25 women and girls, some as young as 14, have been systematically raped, with nine now pregnant. I spoke to Dame Barbara Woodward yesterday afternoon, just after reports of the possible use of chemical weapons in Ukraine, and just before President Joe Biden accused Putin and Russia of carrying out genocide in the country. Here is Dame Barbara Woodward, and to give her her full title, Biden accused Putin and Russia of carrying out genocide in the country. Here is Dame Barbara Woodward, and to give her her full title, the UK's permanent representative to the UN.

She's based in New York and she's presently the president of the UN Security Council. We're urgently trying to verify and corroborate those reports. But if they did turn out to be true, yes, this would be a new escalation in the war and potentially a further layer of tragedy for the people of Ukraine who've already suffered now for more than 50 days of assault. And we've heard about the war crimes. We've heard about the children who've been bombed in schools, women in hospitals, the refugee crisis. But this would take the war to another level. And what could you do? And speaking, of course, in your position as a diplomat, but also with the United Nations, because Russia's already been removed

from the UN Human Rights Council. This was after President Zelensky addressed the council about the atrocities in Bucha, which again took things to another level. Have you got any, are there any levers left to pull? There certainly are. And we were very pleased that we had President Zelensky address the Security Council last week as part of our presidency

at the Security Council. And that led on to the suspension from the Human Rights Council. But the Chemical Weapons Convention provides for sanctions and penalties. And we saw that exercised very clearly after the attack on Sergei and Yulia Skripal. And we know the Russians have formed. You look at what has happened in Syria. You look at what has happened to Navalny in Russia. So there are provisions under the Chemical Weapons Convention for handling chemical weapons attacks. I suppose those provisions perhaps, though, haven't been enough to provide a deterrent.

Well, they haven't provided a deterrent in the past for the instances that I've mentioned. But I think it is fair to say that we have largely managed to outlaw the use of chemical weapons, of course, until the tragic attack in 2014 in Numa. Yes. And as you say, this is being investigated right now about what may or may not have gone on in Ukraine. I suppose it'll be those who are far less familiar with the way the United Nations works, the way diplomacy works than you, who'll be thinking, why is Russia allowed to remain in the United Nations? That's a question that's being raised a great deal here. And indeed, President Zelensky raised it last week when he addressed the Security Council. And I think the hard truth is there is no provision in the UN Charter for

suspending or removing a permanent member of the United Nations. So that would be one of the United States, the UK, France, Russia, or China from the Security Council. The underlying premise, of course, in 1945 was that these were the victors of the Second World War, and they would not have any stake at all in continuing a war, seeing World War III. That's by and large worked, but of course, until Russia invaded Ukraine on the 24th of February. That's now come under question. And that's quite a serious question to be asked. I mean, how do you see that being resolved? Do you see that being resolved anytime soon? I don't see that immediate question being resolved. But what we have seen is, I think, quite a deft interplay between the Security Council,

which has got 15 United Nations members on it, and the General Assembly, which is the membership, the whole 193 countries. And three times now in the General Assembly, where the Security Council has been unable to act, we've seen, first of all, 141 countries condemning Russia's invasion of Ukraine, then 140 countries calling for humanitarian assistance to Ukraine, and then last week, the decisive vote to suspend Russia from the Human Rights Council. So the whole membership now is speaking in a way that the Security Council can't because Russia holds a veto. How do you talk to your Russian counterpart? How difficult is that when you know that what they are saying doesn't tally with the reports on the ground? It's quite difficult to talk and it was quite

striking the day they were suspended from the Human Rights Council. My Russian counterpart and his deputy were both absent from both the Security Council meeting and the General Assembly meeting. There is, of course, a certain level of professional conduct during our presidency month. Of course, we have to carry on with other business, North Korea, Yemen, Ethiopia, Syria and so on. So there's contact around those issues. But it is quite difficult at the moment for all of us, I think. I mean, how do you do it? It must be pretty tough when you're hearing baseless and at times conspiracy theories coming from Russia. Yes. I mean, the Russians told us right at the beginning that they weren't going to invade Ukraine. They then did. They told us that they weren't going to attack schools and hospitals.

They then did that. So there's completely baseless lies. And what we're trying to do is to use the Security Council and the UN more generally to expose the truth, because the UN does have an unbiased and objective view of events. We're using the UN mechanisms to try and keep pressure on Russia, and I think most importantly, to proceed with accountability. So we've got the International Criminal Court now starting their investigations into what's going on in Ukraine. We suspended Russia from the Human Rights Council. So we're using the levers we've got to keep the pressure on Russia to end the war. And meanwhile, you've got to be diplomatic in all of this and talk to people who are spouting, as you say, lies. Well, they're spouting lies. They're killing people in Ukraine. They are probably raping women in front of their own children. So it is very difficult. But the point of diplomacy is that you try to avoid war and we have to keep some channels open for discussion.

And on that, let's move. You've talked about the UK being the president of the Security Council this month. We, the UK, you are focusing on sexual violence in conflict. That's right. So when you're president of the Security Council for a month, you can pick a couple of themes outside the normal agenda to highlight and move work forward. So 10 years on from our work on preventing sexual violence in conflict, we're going to launch tomorrow a new code of conduct

to try and improve justice for survivors of conflict-related sexual violence, or basically sexual attack and rape in war. And we've developed that with the Nobel laureate Nadia Murad, who herself, as you'll know, was kidnapped by ISIS in Iraq and suffered appalling gang rape, beating, cigarette burns, when she was aged only 19 back in 2014. And she has remarkably not only survived that, not only told her own story, but is now with the Nadia Initiative, one of the great campaigners and champions against conflict-related sexual violence. And so the code that we're launching aims to bring together the guidance on how properly and ethically and effectively to collect evidence on sexual violence in conflict, to give women a chance of recording

their experiences safely and improving their chances of justice while reducing the trauma. And one of the things that has happened in the past, of course, is that the evidence hasn't been collected. Women have had to be re-interviewed and relive the trauma. So this new Nadia's Code that we are bringing together aims to do this in a more effective way. Will it be quick enough to get this to women now in Ukraine? I mean, I'm minded as we're talking. The BBC, you know, there's just been a filing of a report has heard firsthand testimony and found evidence of Ukrainian women being raped

by invading soldiers from Russia. It will. The Metropolitan Police, who are part of the investigation team working in Ukraine, their sexual violence experts are adopting the code when it's issued tomorrow. And Kareem Khan, the chief prosecutor who is leading the International Criminal Court investigation, he's worked very closely with Nadia Murad as well, and they will be working in line with the code. So I hope that that will bring some hope to women who have suffered this appalling trauma and abuse.

I suppose by having a code, are you effectively recognising you can't stop soldiers raping women during war? I think we have to face the hard fact that century after century, women have been treated as the spoils of war. That's appalling. We have slowly got to the point where we can prosecute that crime. So we had about 32 soldiers prosecuted for rape in Kosovo after the war there. It's nothing compared to the number of women who have suffered. But I hope that gradually we can make progress. And talking to people like Nadia Mourad is truly inspiring about the steps we can take. But I suppose it's not usually part of war strategy. Do you see when sexual violence happens by soldiers, let's say in this instance,

as is being reported by the BBC and others in Ukraine, do you see that as a sign of desperation? How do you interpret when it's used like this of an attack on a country? So we've seen rape used as a weapon of war. And when Nadia herself was kidnapped by ISIS in Iraq, that was a deliberate kidnapping. There were about 6,700 Yazidi women taken for the purposes of sexual abuse by ISIS. In Ukraine, we don't yet know whether it's being used as a weapon of war or whether it is what you might call opportunistic rape. That's what I mean. There's two thoughts on this about whether it's deliberate or part of what's

happening. Exactly. And that will be part of the investigation. But either way, it doesn't change the fact that women are being raped by soldiers during a war. And the awful thing about it is we know from studies done after imbued in some way by that awful trauma, which is why it's so important to do something about it and why Nadia's code is such an amazing step forward. With regards to justice, do you have confidence in our systems that ultimately, I suppose, Putin could be tried in the Hague for war crimes? That's certainly the purpose of gathering the evidence. Of course, there will be barriers to overcome. Russia itself is not a member of the ICC. So we need to find a way of doing that.

And some people, of course, are talking about a new crime of accountability. Some people are talking about setting up trials like Nuremberg or the trials after Yugoslavia. So there are mechanisms for bringing people to justice. But the most important thing now, aside from ending the war, I think, is to make sure that we collect the evidence as effectively as possible. Can you imagine that day that Putin's there in The Hague? Do you think it will actually happen? It's I think dealing with the war as it is now, of course, we hope for a lot of things. We hope that Russian soldiers will leave. We hope for peace. We hope we can bring this to an end. So I try not to live too much on hope, but I do try to live on one practical step at a time.

But I definitely hope that President Putin can be brought to justice for the invasion of Ukraine, which has torn up the whole UN charter and killed thousands of people, ruined thousands more lives, displaced more than 10 million people. This is a serious, serious international problem. Do you think when we look back, again, I suppose, throwing forward, and it'd be interesting to know, I don't know if you've got a view on how long you think this is going to last, but do you think we will be able to say as a country, as the UK, that we did enough? I think it's going to be hard. I know that the Prime Minister was in Ukraine at the weekend. President Zelensky was very forthcoming and very appreciative of the support we've been able to give Ukraine, the military support. We're one of the leading humanitarian donors to Ukraine. But also,

we have, of course, led the way on sanctioning the Russian economy and trying to put pressure that way on how they are funding the war. So we've certainly been doing all we can. But it's hard not to remember that, as President Zelensky said yesterday, every Ukrainian life that is taken in this war is one that we would want to avoid. Just looking to the UK with our energy policy and dependence on Russian oil, that's obviously been thrown into the spotlight. You've worked around the world. There's now talk about where we will get oil in the medium term, with countries such as Iran or Saudi Arabia being lined up to fill the gap. Does their record on human rights, those countries,

and in particular, I suppose, in relation to women, concern you? Yes, I think there's two parts to that question. The first is, of course, worth remembering that the UK's dependence on Russian oil is very low. It's about 3%, and partly because we have the North Sea, but more importantly because we're making this significant step towards renewables. And I think it's important to say that not just because of the dependence, but also because one of the areas

where the UK was leading last year, of course, was climate change when we hosted COP. And the whole question of returning coal now is putting COP and climate change into backspin. But more generally, I think it's important that we don't have a dependence on countries who are fundamentally not trustworthy for products that are interdependence is what we need to avoid. And the best way of doing that, I think, will be to transition fast to renewables because every country can rely on its own wind and solar and wave power and civil nuclear power if it needs it. I suppose with the experience you've had having worked in China, now in this position, having worked also in Russia, I mean, you must have such an overview that we have to do deals all the time that are imperfect on that point about human rights and records. I mean, how do you sort of reconcile that with the knowledge that you have

in the postings that you've had? Is it difficult? It is difficult up to a point. But the positive side of that is if you are engaging on an oil deal or trade talks, you can use that access to raise questions of equity, justice, human rights. So that's, for example, we did that a great deal when I was in China. We had a burgeoning at that point trade relationship with China, but we did not hold back in raising concerns about Hong Kong or Xinjiang or Tibet. So I think it's part of a broader relationship that you have things to discuss. And we have those sort of relationships with all of our partners. We don't agree on absolutely everything with any country. And there are countries where we want to work together to move things forward. You are one of our most senior diplomats. You're, of course, a woman as well. Not a problem, I hope, from the British side, or perhaps there are other stories to tell that maybe you'll tell in years to come. But how has

it been sometimes being received by other countries where perhaps they're not used to dealing with women at a senior level? I'm thinking of Russia, maybe, in terms of the way that you have experienced recent conversations or when you were posted there or even in China. Has there ever been an issue? I would say there were a couple of incidents when I was a very junior diplomat in Russia where some interlocutors said, I want to talk to a man, not going to talk to you. And the hard fact was, you know, I was the person they had to talk to and they had to make a choice.

But I have to say, since moving into position as ambassador, there was no question in China that I found where I was not taken seriously as the British ambassador. I was treated with respect and courtesy and possibly got a little more access of being a woman. Well, you'd stand out. And with the photos I've seen of Chinese leadership, there's mainly men, it would be safe to say. Yeah, there were not a large number of female ambassadors to China. And we often got muddled up. So I was often muddled up with my Australian counterpart, who was quite a lot shorter than me and spoke much better Chinese than I did. But we were often just confused because we were both foreign women, but it didn't do any harm. Well, no, I was also reminded of Liz Truss, who was recently on the programme and her exchanges with her Russian counterpart and how that seemingly had gone down.

I believe he made some extremely disparaging remarks about her afterwards. I imagine you were saying right at the beginning, you have to, it's tough. You have to talk tough. You have to deal with this when there are baseless remarks coming. Do you ever find that challenging? You have to approach the job with integrity, but also with a clear purpose, I think. And we've had lies put out in public by the Russians about things that have happened. They have been personally quite abusive about some of the ways in which we run our presidency, but that's all part of, I think,

their being on the back foot in Ukraine, and we have to decide how we handle that. But my preference is, to be honest, if being on the back foot in Ukraine. And we have to decide how we handle that. But my preference is, to be honest, if they go low, we go high. So we keep our integrity, we keep the moral high ground. And most importantly, we keep the debate where it needs to be, which is on the situation in Ukraine, putting pressure on Russia to withdraw and end the war. How long do you think it's going to be, this war? I do not know the answer to that, sadly. Dame Barbara Woodward, the UK's permanent representative to the United Nations. Still,

you're getting in touch. In fact, one of the words just mentioned there about integrity is coming up in some messages with regards to the finding of the Prime Minister and also of the Chancellor over those so-called lockdown parties, party gays, as it's also been referred to in number 10. A message here from Jen. Boris Johnson should stay at the moment. We need a stable government while the Russians are invading Ukraine. Matters can be dealt with at a later date.

But John says Thatcher, Eden, Chamberlain, Asquith, each replaced at times of crisis. It's crucial in such times to have leaders who can be trusted to do the right thing, which on their record rules out Boris Johnson and his cabinet. And Wendy says the issue is not about cake or even about lies and only admitting something when caught, but about the fact that Boris Johnson still thinks he did nothing wrong. Complete moral corruption is the issue and therefore he's unfit to govern for that, if not for multiple other reasons that could

be listed. Sue's asked the media to please stop stoking the flames on this topic. Boris Johnson speaking for the UK on the world stage and working to help Ukraine. This is what matters not a so-called party at number 10. Ask the Ukrainian people if they prefer we focus on the birthday cake our Prime Minister ate or stopping a genocide. Political point scoring is pathetic. And so it goes on. Christine literally just messaged in, he should resign. Thank you so much for your messages, for your strength of views. Always welcome.

84844 is that number. If I can get any more in and read those out before the end of the programme, I will. But let me ask you this. How many questions could you answer correctly about the Peak District? Well, it turns out my next guest can take them all. This week, Alice Walker from Derbyshire became the oldest female winner of the BBC Quiz Show Mastermind. 66, I believe, when the grand final was recorded and has turned 67 now. Alice, good morning.

Good morning. Thank you for joining us today. Where's the glass bowl, first of all? Oh, it's just on a shelf in the living room here. Safely away from anyone harming. Yeah, absolutely. Had you wanted to go on the programme for a while? Oh, the years, yes.

I mean, I've always watched it. It's always been there, you know, and I've thought about it. And I just thought, if I'm going to do it, I need to crack on because I'm not getting any younger. No. How do you feel about the fact that your age has been part of this story? Yeah. The guy who won it last year was the youngest ever winner.

And I think I'm like the polar opposite to the whippersnapper. So I think that's why it's been picked up on. I didn't know that that was the case you know well well done you let's let's still keep those congratulations going and you chose Peak District National Park as your specialist subject why well I live on the edge of the Peak District and it's an area that I'm quite familiar with and I thought it would make an interesting subject because it's a lot there's lots of different aspects to it there's the geography and history and people connected to the national park so uh i thought it would be something a bit different well it's a never mind it's a broad topic it's a broad area

so how did you know so much you've been i know that you walk a lot with your dog is that right i do yeah but i had to do quite a lot of research um you know reading up on it and learning all the facts yeah well i it's to do quite a lot of research, you know, reading up on it and learning all the facts, yeah. Well, it's incredibly impressive. Full score. Did you think you'd get that? No, I certainly never expected to do as well as I have. I was really pleased when I came through the heat,

never mind getting to the final and then winning it. It was totally unexpected, the whole thing. Well, it's wonderful. And I think we need to talk about Morris dancing at this point, don't all right yeah tell us how some morris dancers fit into this there was some celebrations yeah well that's something i've done uh for about the last 40 years i belong to a women's morris dancing team in pointon which is not far from where i live and um we do the traditional women's style of Morris dancing from the northwest of England.

So we have clogs and it's a bit different from some of the male Morris dancing that people might be more familiar with. I feel as the host of Women's Hour, I need to better acquaint myself with what you're talking about and I'm shamefully ignorant, so I will try and sort this out. Maybe I need to go and have a go. Would you recommend?

Always, yes. It's great fun and it's out. Maybe I need to go and have a go. Would you recommend? Always, yes. It's great fun and it's a very sociable thing to do. You make lots of friends through it and it's just really fun. Well, it sounds it. And the reason I brought it up is I believe that your troupe were there in the video to support you. They were. They came and danced in my garden to do the little film,

which was a bit surreal. There wasn't really enough room for them but we did it anyway well I think again fabulous support act and did you let them touch the bowl or not nobody's seen the bowl actually because every time anybody's been around to my house in the last five months it's had to go in the cupboard yes you had to hide it I haven't thought about that the delay between transmission and and the. Have you been able to keep a secret well? Yeah, just about. It's been really hard, but I've managed it, yeah. People have been trying to trick me into saying it.

Have they? I would have been one of those friends if I'd joined the troupe and got my clogs in time. And you are a quizzer, though. I am, yes. You've done a few others, haven't you? I've been on a few TV programmes, yeah. I've done quizzing all my life, really. Which ones? Which ones have you done? I've done Eggheads, The Chase, 15 to 1. But I've never won anything.

You know, I've done quite badly on most of them, actually. How was The Chase? That was terrible. I was so bad on the chase. It was embarrassing, actually. Well, it's good to know you can come back from it and then go and get the glass bowl on Mastermind. Yeah, yeah.

How have you celebrated now everyone could know? Well, just we had a little glass of champagne on Monday. Very nice. And now the bowl can be out, of course. I'm quite surprised at all the interest there's been, to be honest. Well, I was very excited to have you on the programme this morning. I'm very excited to be on. Well, it's been a total highlight. Alice Walker, thank you so much.

Hopefully it won't be the last time. And enjoy. I mean, are you going to Morris Dance this weekend? Tonight. We have our practice night tonight. Well, go forth, be merry whatever what should I say for Morris dancing go and have a is there a phrase I'm not sure really all right I need to I need to get myself as I say better acquainted with this maybe I'll look you up for that Alice all the best for tonight and of course this new title of being the oldest female champion to mastermind victory don't say we don't bring it to you all here on this programme.

Lovely to have Alice on. But now to two women who didn't know each other but have a lot in common because they found new ways to live after both coming very close to death in their 30s. And both of their experiences relate to pregnancy. Tanya Shadrick suffered a postpartum arterial hemorrhage 10 days after the birth of her first child and was put into an induced coma. And Georgina Skull had an ectopic pregnancy, which ruptured. Their respective experiences changed them profoundly. And that's what they want to focus on. Those changes didn't happen overnight. But over time, they had the courage

to take a fresh look at themselves to learn to live more fully in their quote-unquote second life. Georgina Scull is now the author of Regrets of the Dying, Stories and Wisdom that Remind Us of How to Live and Tanya Shadrick is the author of The Cure to Sleep, for sleep I should say. Good morning to both of you, welcome to the programme. Tanya I was actually going to start with you and and say what was the experience I know we're not dwelling on this per se but of going that close to death and then how how can you remember that in making a change in you? Hello Emma for me because it happened so suddenly I wasn't ill I suddenly started bleeding the the very day the midwife had just signed me off.

So I was in no pain and I was very aware I was dying. And it was such a shock. I experienced such pure regret, my cowardice in my first life. On paper, I looked successful. I, you know, working class kid who'd got to university, first class degree, but I was hiding from everything. And so my real challenge was when I came back from induced coma and I'm a new mother as well, it was like, I've got to change my life. And that was a very strong feeling. Oh, absolutely. I wanted to leave my husband and my young son.

I love my husband. I've been with him since I was 20, but I wanted to run away. I just wanted to put a backpack on and go on one of those big quests. Wow. We'll get to what then did happen and didn't happen um Georgina what's your thoughts around your experience and how that feeling came to you I mean it's quite similar to Tanya really I think it made me realize I needed to change so many things um but I found myself drifting um It didn't change straight away. It took quite a few years. I think I just felt myself caught between the past and the future.

So I kind of didn't have, I didn't want to leave my husband straight away. I kind of felt like maybe I should and I wanted to change my job and there were so many things in life I wanted to do but I think I was just scared and I kind of hunkered down and I didn't really, it just took was just scared and I kind of hunkered down and I didn't really it just took me so many years to kind of separate myself from that past worrying

about all the things I hadn't done and kind of all the things I wanted to do in the future I didn't I didn't get on with the here and now and that's that's kind of what I had to do I think it's quite striking first thoughts I want to leave my husband. Sorry, I just had to pick up on that. It's an interesting first response. What's new about your second life? I'm not with him anymore. Well, that's correct. Yes. And did you? You did, Georgina. I did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was quite a few things that I changed to be honest finally when I when I kind of really looked at things that were making me unhappy you know I was overweight and there's nothing wrong with being big or whatsoever but for me

it was making me I feel like I was hiding in it really and I needed to grapple with that I'd become estranged to my mum over the years only for you know for a few years but I love her very much and I wanted that to where you know I wanted to reconnect with her and you weren't able to do that yeah yeah yeah yeah I wrote a series of notes actually um that ran from her birthday to to uh Christmas and each one had a thing that I loved about her and things that she'd done for us and it was like once she read all those it was like we came back together um and then with my with my marriage I mean it's strange really because he's such a lovely person and I think sometimes when we're talking about change these big changes we kind of feel like it has to be a big reason it has to be that they've cheated on us or they're an alcoholic or something like this to go people

will understand why I'm not happy here and and there weren't any big though there was just a general our cogs just didn't fit like he was lovely I was lovely but the way we supported each other or didn't support each other just didn't kind of work anymore and it's become obvious because since we split up two years ago we've become very good friends and we co-parent brilliantly so you know if it would that's kind of like the proof is in the pudding really that was you know the best thing to do Tanya you didn't end up leaving your no with me it was just pure flight and flight I was just frightened to come back to life I was frightened of being a new mum when I was so ill and so weak

and so full of regret and I think it's really hard to change your life in partnership with someone that's the challenge of marriage, or being in any close relationship, you know, when you need to change and put all your effort into that. But of course, actually, that's why change is difficult. Because we do have responsibilities, we do have people we love, I didn't want to abandon my child and husband really but I didn't know how to do it and so that's the challenge and that's what my book's about is how do you change your life where you are when you're a wife and mother in a small town. And what did you do? At one point I only had an hour a week and so I thought well I know I could help hospice patients because I know what it's like to be reaching your end so I did that with just a few spare hours for four

years around my job and looking after children um so that as I said at the beginning yeah small changes small changes because I had no spare time and I think Georgina and I I think both our books emphasize that that your wake-up calls are often sudden and emergencies but to make good on them takes patience and time. And that's quite hopeful. Indeed. And when you then did have more time, what else did you do? Because, of course, people like to hear about practical things as well that you have done that have made those changes.

For me, because I felt I was a coward, I was socially anxious, I just scuttered between home and the office. So for me, the big change to begin with was just having the courage to go into the community hall to a mum and baby group. It sounds so small, but it changed my life. I started making friends instead of just being with my husband. Then I did some really crazy things like becoming a performance artist in my small town. But the real changes that everyone can make are just saying yes to more things walking into parties not hiding because of how you look and from those conversations with those in the

hospice what did you learn about some of their regrets to to put to practice and maybe our listeners also could learn from from now while they are hopefully in a place where they can benefit from it yeah i mean for me um based on the people I work with I'm not a social scientist or anything people didn't it's that classic thing people regretted what they hadn't had the courage to do more than things they'd done wrong it's the things we never had the courage to do that I think sits hardest with most people um and people always say oh people never regret people always regret how much they worked and they wish they hadn't worked so hard but actually a lot of the people I met were like me they wanted to they wish they'd worked harder they wish they'd had a career they wish they hadn't just been a wife or they wish

they hadn't just been the male breadwinner who never pursued a vocation or a dream they actually wanted to add a people wanted to work more and do more and contribute more and georgina when you were making these changes what else were you doing and how did you come to some of those changes well i think the main thing was just going out and speaking to people um who were kind of facing their own end so people over the age of 70 people who are you know looking at their end of their life. I think I looked into myself and unlike Tanya, I couldn't find the answers, so I had to go outwards. And what I saw was a pattern, actually.

I don't know if you found this, Tanya, but it was like most of people's regrets were either from living up to other people's expectations and also... No, no no it must be very you're talking about a hugely emotional yeah thing as well yeah and quite a few of them have died since the book but it kind of it just makes you want to live to be honest it makes you want to make the most of everything did you find making lists helpful either Some people recommend that, don't they? To try and solidify their desires. Well, I kind of always made lists.

And that was the problem is that it was always on a list. I mean, I have lists of lists. Yeah, yeah. I have an index of my lists. And the trouble is, as soon as they're ticked, you're on to the next one. And I don't think there's that much. You know what I mean? It doesn't go very deeply.

Well, there's one list that never gets any ticks. And those jobs are actually the ones you need to do. I think the thing that one of the main things that i saw with people when they regretted things was the rewriting of history i think that's the one that was the most prominent no matter how different everyone's regrets were was like what we do now is trying to rewrite what's happened before so if you were born with that much money or you didn't have much education then everything you do almost is focused towards filling that gap and rewriting that bit of your history and that's

what I found over and over and I felt that that was in myself and the choices I'd made in life you know when I realized what I was doing it allowed me to go okay it's that whole thing about being in the past in the future that what we really need to do is live in the here and now and we because the moment someone makes a decision to try and redo stuff in the past it's like the pendulum swings like they try and redo it like one of the chaps I spoke to was this guy called Alan really smart did really well in business um you know but at the end of the day he he found out he had brain cancer. And he said what had taken him 20 years to accumulate, it took six months for him to realise that actually he didn't really want it.

He wasn't sure if it was worth it, really. And so, yeah. And what do you want to say? I feel like you're chomping at the bit here, Tanya, to add in, especially when I mention lists. Yeah, I'm nodding furiously at everything Georgina's saying. But no, that thing about lists, I never had to do lists. But what I did that did change my life and I pass on now to people is I sat down and I made a list of 100 things I loved. And I actually found it really difficult because I was just kind of empty after seven years of child rearing coming straight after the new list.

I didn't really, I was just empty. And I made this list and it took me all day. But everything wonderful in my life now came from that so at first it was silly little things like I like the cats in the sunlight I like peeling apples because I didn't really have any passions but by the end of the list really interesting things start happening so I do that with people all the time now in workshops a hundred is quite a lot and people find it really because then you start realizing what you loved as a kid and you can find an adult form for it. Or you can go, oh, I'd love to get more involved in that.

It's a really active way of dealing with regret rather than dwelling on, as Georgina says, rather than looking at what went wrong in the past. Focus on what you love. And I also think what you said, both of you have said, and particularly you, Tanya, is about you don't have to do it all at the same time. You don't have to do it all at the same time. You don't have to do it now. And you mentioned knowing where you're going and then being able to do it at a different point. Tanya Shudrick, Georgina Skull, thank you very much to both of you. And I just wanted to end today's programme with something I spied in The Times Diary this morning. Mimi Reinhart, the Holocaust survivor and famously the secretary to Oskar Schindler, has died this week.

You could say, I suppose, in the ultimate triumph over Hitler, aged 107. But it's what she said to the journalist Paul Alston, who requested an interview with her a few years ago, which caught the diarist's eye. She said, thank you, but I decided to stop giving interviews at the age of 100. What a woman. I'll leave you with that. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. There's a story about Vladimir Putin. When he was a teenager, he saw a film that he became obsessed by. He would watch it, all five hours of it, over and over again and decades later he'd say how important it was to the life he chose. It's called The Shield and the Sword and it tells the

story of a Soviet secret agent working at the highest level in the Nazi war machine. The film prompted Putin to join the KGB. What amazed me, he'd say of the film, was how one man's efforts could achieve what whole armies could not. How one spy could decide the fate of thousands of people. This is the story of a spy who has the fate of tens of millions of people in his hands, told by the men and women who've observed his rise and rise, the Putin experts and the Russia watchers. It's the story of a man who's seen an empire fall and his nation humiliated and who's torn up the global order trying to restore past glory and avenge the slights of the past.

I'm Johnny Diamond and from BBC Radio 4, this is Putin, the story of the man who's changing the world. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.