Woman's Hour - Dame Darcey Bussell; Single Fatherhood; Rape Review with Max Hill QC

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

Dame Darcey Bussell is the former Principal of The Royal Ballet & Strictly Judge, President of the RAD & creator of Diversity Dance Mix. She joins Anita to talk about her passion for dance and her mission to rescue Britain’s ballet dancers, and raise spirits and money for struggling dance companies, by creating the British Ballet Charity Gala. The event was performed at the Royal Albert Hall in London bringing together eight ballet companies in one evening of dance. It will be pay per view streamed from 7pm tonight and available on demand until 18 July.This Sunday is Father’s Day, and a new film out today on Netflix – ‘Fatherhood’ - explores the life of a single father raising his daughter. What is it like for the men who are lone parents? And how do young women feel growing up without a mother? Anita speaks to two fathers, and their daughters, to share their stories.The government has just published its delayed review into how the criminal justice system deals with rape in England and Wales. It comes after charges, prosecutions and convictions for rape fell over the last five years and looks at every part of the system from when an allegation is made to whether or not it makes it trial and then conviction. A crucial part of the legal chain is the Crown Prosecution Service which decides which cases go forward for trial based on the available evidence. The head of the CPS is the Director of the Public Prosecutions – currently Max Hill QC. He joins Anita to discuss the government’s review and their own plans for increasing conviction rates.Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. In a moment, we'll be starting the show by talking to the Director of Public Prosecutions, Max Hill QC, who is also the head of the Crown Prosecution Service, about how they're planning to tackle rape allegations after a government report came out last night. Because the rape conviction rates in the last few years have dropped off a cliff and are frankly shocking.

128,000 victims of rape, including attempted rape each year, but just 2,000 convictions. Is this something you have experience of? What did the experience do to you? Maybe you haven't come forward because you have no faith in the justice system. I want to hear from you this morning and I want to give you the opportunity to put your questions to the head of the CPS. You can tweet me at BBC Woman's Hour, you can text us it's 84844 or you can email via our websites and of course we'll keep your identities anonymous if you so wish.

Then it's Father's Day on Sunday so we're celebrating dads by speaking to two single fathers about bringing up children on their own and I want to hear about your dads and the brilliant dad things they've done for you. Mine taught me to drive, play pool, very important, helped me move house 75,000 times, which was never easy

as I came with millions of CDs that needed lugging up and down staircases. But it was also a dad who encouraged my free spirit. So nice one, dad. Tell me about your dad's, the text number 84844. And as it's Friday, we're going to get our groove on. Oh, yes. Get ready to enter a world of dance. Put your tutus on if you fancy

because we're going to be joined by one of the greatest British ballet dancers and former Strictly judge Dame Darcy Bussell. And if that wasn't enough, Diana Ross. Or at least her new album, which is coming out next week to say thank you to her fans. We would love to hear from you,

whatever you want to input into the program and i will try and get through as many of your tweets and texts as possible it's 84844 or you can tweet or get in touch via our instagram it's at bbc woman's hour now the government has just published its delayed end-to-end review into how the criminal justice system deals with rape in england and wales allegations of rape and sexual assault have risen over the last five years, but charges, prosecutions and convictions are at a record low. The government has now apologised to victims and say the focus will shift to examine the behaviour of the suspect rather than the credibility of the accuser. A crucial part of the legal chain is the Crown Prosecution Service,

which decides which cases go forward to trial. The head of that service is the Director of Public Prosecutions, currently Max Hill, and he joins me now. Very good morning, Max. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thank you. These statistics, your own statistics, reported rapes have gone up. There are estimated 128,000 victims of rape, including attempted rape each year, but just 2,000 see convictions. And like I say, according to your very own statistics, victims and survivors groups would say that these are conservative estimates. So I want to start by asking you, Max, what's gone so wrong? Well, I'm sorry that not enough people are seeing justice for what is a devastating crime, second almost to nothing in terms of the intrusion on a woman's body or as it may be a man's body through rape.

And it is important to start by saying sorry, to say next that I am determined that we will drive the numbers up. And I'm happy to talk about the detail there. And thirdly, please, to give some confidence to women who are considering whether they should report a violent sexual assault and to say you must report. In terms of the headline numbers, what this review from the government today says is we actually have an unprecedented opportunity to look right across the criminal justice system through police work, through our work at the CPS and through the work of the courts to try to improve the numbers and speed these cases through the system. Not enough cases are reaching the CPS for decision and just as to your headline numbers, in the last year we received 2,700 cases from the police

to consider. So it's clear that at the very outset of the process, the overall process, too many people who are brave enough to complain about rape are then falling away for a variety of reasons and not staying the course. And I want today to try to give confidence to people that we are interested and we are determined to make a really positive change right across the system. And I'm sure lots of our listeners will be paying attention to hear how you're going to do that, how you're going to instill that confidence in them. Now, the Victims Commissioner, Dame Vera Bird, has previously said that rape has effectively been decriminalised in the UK. Today, she said that this review means ministers have accepted that the criminal justice system has totally been mishandling rape. Do you accept that?

It hasn't been decriminalised. The law on rape remains the same. It can be a complicated crime to prosecute. And I'm happy to talk about what the law requires us to prove in court. But I would also ask listeners to remember that over the period from 2016, which is what the government review is focusing on, thousands of rape cases have been taken to court. Rapists are being convicted. They are being sent to prison. Not in sufficient numbers, but I have teams right around the country of specialist, experienced prosecutors who spend every day building cases. And what they get out of bed in the morning for is to come to work at home often now, as in the office, because of COVID, and to charge cases and to progress them through the courts. I repeat, I'm sorry that that hasn't been in sufficient volumes. And we do have a big opportunity today to increase the volume. But people should understand that rapists are being convicted and locked up every day.

We just want to see that with more of them. Now we talk regularly on this programme to victims and survivors of rape and the groups that support them and many of them aren't happy about the level of consultation with them for this review. I can't answer directly for that. This was a review by the government. It took place over two years. I think there was pretty broad consultation and that included with us, with the police and with many others as well. What I can talk about is that I have a very strong

personal priority in this area of crime. Here at the CPS, we're responsible for all crimes, but I'm now probably spending more time together with my senior team, making sure that we're responding to this area of crime. I've led an evidence gathering process right around the country. I've spent time sitting down with interest groups of all sorts. I've been privileged to go to sexual assault referral centres to see what happens in the minutes and hours immediately after someone is brave enough to complain of rape. I've sat with independent sexual violence advisors to see the role that they play, giving confidence, explaining

what the legal system requires. And through it all, I sit with our teams, our rape and serious sexual offence unit teams of, I repeat and make no apology for it, dedicated specialist lawyers whose job it is to take police files, make sure that we have what we need to prosecute. And every time the legal tests are satisfied, we will charge the case and take it to court. So let's talk about the review and some of the changes that you're thinking of bringing forward. It says you're going to focus more on the behaviour of the accused, not the credibility of the witness. That's key, isn't it? In the past, witnesses haven't been believed or they've been told they're not upset enough. In fact, just this morning, I was reading a case study in the Metro, an article about a woman who has come forward and given her name, Kat Araniello, who says her case was not

prosecuted because she was told she wasn't distressed enough. So this is, you know, preventing people from coming forward, from reporting their crimes. How confident are you that this will change? Well, I think what the review allows us to do, and I should say insists that we all do, is better collaboration between prosecutors and the police from the start of an investigation, supporting our prosecutors so that they have the resource they need, so they can respond to these challenging and complex cases, and improving the support that we give to victims. And that is why I've been gathering evidence, as I told you a moment ago. We must do all of that. This is a significant moment. I can't help to the sense that in court there are going to be challenges to evidence given from whomever the witness is.

And that leads me to say it's very important that when we prosecute, our job is to make sure that the right person is charged with the right offence. But we must then present a fair trial in court. That means fair to the accused as well as to the accuser. And there are challenges there. Lawyers will cross-examine, and it's for judges to control that cross-examination as best as possible. But as to what is now being called the offender-centric approach, I think that is an important development. What that means in simple terms is that when an investigator for the police and a prosecutor receives the account of a rape survivor, a victim, what they will do is look at the profile of the person who's accused, look at what he, and it usually is he, did before, during and after the offence and look for evidence that supports the account that this brave

survivor has come forward to give and that I think will be a help. I have in the next breath though to remind everyone what the law requires and the burden that it puts on the prosecution. We have to demonstrate in many cases of rape where the physical actions, horrible though they are, are not in dispute, we have to demonstrate that the victim did not consent and we have to demonstrate in court that the accused could not have reasonably believed that his victim was consenting. And I'm afraid that there are many cases where juries at the end of the evidence are quite sure that the victim didn't consent, but they can't be so sure that the accused didn't believe there was consent. That doesn't mean we accept it. We are seeking to present strong cases

in higher volumes and to get results for people who deserve justice. And we all talk about cases. We all talk about volumes. The most important thing here is that every case of rape involves a person, a person who has been violated, and we have to keep that in the forefront of our minds. And a few people listening to this are getting in touch with us with questions they'd like to put to you, Max.

Someone has just said, I was told by a police sergeant that I must stop talking about the attack on me. He said, don't say anything about this. His exact words were the rapist used as he left my house. The police officer then said that the rapist could sue me. I mean someone else has said um uh my private and sex life was on trial with leading questions rather than asking for my narrative I believe the CPS looks for cases where the jury will be sympathetic the sympathy reflecting the police's own prejudice to charge someone you need a realist by the way 84844 if you would like to put a question to max hill or you can also um get in touch via social media it's at bbc woman's hour now to

charge someone you need a realistic prospect of conviction hence the low rates of rape cases making it to court how can you guarantee for the woman's hour audience today that you're going to get more cases to court well with the right, which I've tried to set out, with all of the work that we've been putting in place before this rape review, including, can I add, a revised set of legal guidance that we provided to our lawyers after a public consultation, which went out earlier this spring, and with the opportunity to work right across the system, we will do everything we can to improve the numbers. And as to the listener's question about the legal test, I understand that. I understand the challenge. We went to the

Court of Appeal earlier this year because we were being challenged over our legal decision making. It hasn't changed. The Court of Appeal found that it hadn't changed. We look at every case on its merits. And when the legal tests are met, we charge the case. And we rely on juries to be impartial, objective, and to accept the account that a survivor is putting forward. We, of of course rely on the judges to ensure that trials are fair and that's what they do and so putting all of those things together I'd say to understandably worried women who are not sure whether they should complain or should go through with this, please have some confidence. Everything will be done that can be done to look

after you at all stages of the system. And I just come back to the independent sexual violence advisers, who I think play a really important role in communicating and answering people's questions from day one and the moment that a complaint is made. So, Max, instill that confidence in our listeners, whether it's women and men, because we know that there is men are raped as well. It's a smaller proportion, but a significant number of men also are the victims of sexual offence as well. So what are the changes? What's going to happen? Well, we talk often about difficulty of prosecuting rape. The message I want to give is that if the legal test is met, no case is too challenging. I've been sitting down with our rape specialists around the country and encouraging them to form stronger relationships with individual police forces.

We've got 43 police forces around the country. And to have conversations with rape investigators on the police side in the very early stages of an investigation, to agree how to focus on the legal tests that are applied, to take that offender-centric approach. What is the evidence you can gather that makes it much more likely, if indeed certain, that he's done what she is alleging he's done. Build those cases from the earliest stage. Bring them forward. When the legal test is met, we will prosecute that case. The law still sets a very high standard in court. We are the prosecution. We bear the burden of proof. And I've described what that means in terms of consent cases. And sadly, in so many cases, it's not the physical activity that's disputed in court.

It's the question of consent. And that can be complex and that can be difficult. But there is no case too challenging to bring to court if the test is met. And if I may, it was in the news yesterday. We secured the conviction of a man yesterday for two murders, one committed 24 years ago, the other three years ago. And that man, who was a sexual predator, had been acquitted of a murder in 2000. We went, in fact, I went personally to the Court of Appeal last October to say that we had compelling evidence of his guilt, he should be tried again, and he was convicted of both murders yesterday. So that, I hope,

should give some confidence to people that there is a real will here, a real determination, not so much on my part, but on the part of my specialist prosecutors, who we will support in every way, they come to work to charge cases, not to have a look and let them go. Let's talk about collecting evidence. How relevant are people's photos and data on their phones and online? Because it's been likened to a digital strip search and the Justice Secretary, Robert Buckland investigations should not be fishing expeditions. And the Justice Secretary is absolutely right about that. There are circumstances in which it is necessary to look at some material which we hold on our personal devices and an example of that would be in a case where there is an allegation of rape, but there was a pre-existing relationship and there are messages passing between the two people. But let me say two things. Firstly, if you take an offender centric approach and instead of just scrutinizing the person who's complaining about rape and what's on their devices. But look at the accused. Look at the picture that you can build of his activity before, during and after the event.

That will help. And then, as I know, the justice secretary and others have announced where it is necessary to look at social media, text messages, even phone calls, zero on what you really need to look at. That's what's called a reasonable line of inquiry. The Court of Appeal in a case called Beta James has given some really helpful guidance on where to look and how restricted that should be. And I understand that there's a plan through the Home Office to ensure that women who do have to allow some scrutiny of their devices will not lose their phones, which are our lifeline after all, for days,

months, weeks, even a year. And I know there's a plan to ensure that people get their phones back or at least get a phone back so that their life can go on whilst the investigation is concluded. And but it's not necessarily about how quickly they get their phones back. Well, of course, who wants their phone to have disappeared for a year? It's about what you do with the data on the phone and how it's being interpreted or misinterpreted and misused.

Well, there are strict rules around that. And I think that is why the Court of Appeal really focused on this last year and said you should not be looking right across someone's mobile phone. You've got to focus that down. What is the relevance to an issue in the investigation and in the case? And this is for the police to determine. They set the lines of their investigation. If they're in doubt,

that's what our prosecutors are here for, as I said, at the early stages. What should our lines of inquiry be? Take care. Make sure that you're only looking where you really need to look. And when you do that, be responsible with the information. And we are dealing with professionals here. I do trust in police investigators. I certainly place my trust in our prosecutors where it is necessary to look at private information. I hope people can have confidence that that will be done where it's proportionate and only on a strictly limited basis. Although it would be still a huge leap of faith for a vulnerable victim for them to trust that their info will be treated fairly. I agree with you. But remember that although we're talking about rape, this horrible crime, actually, the world we live in now means that all sorts of criminal investigations, not limited to sexual offences, do involve looking at our digital

footprint in the world. That might be through CCTV on the street corner. It might be through camera footage. It might be through things that are held on our laptops or on our phones. And that obviously adds to your workload as well. It all adds to the workload. I sometimes refer to the digital explosion. A decade ago, did any of us have iPhones? We all have them now or some version of that. So there's a lot more to look at right across criminal justice. But you should focus in on what you really need to look at. And that is what the Court of Appeal has said. And that's where I hope people will have confidence. You are not being singled out as a woman or as a rape victim, but where it

is necessary to look at information, that will be done as swiftly as possible and on as limited a basis as possible. And it is, as you keep saying, about instilling confidence and about trust in the system because, you know, a woman's previous sexual history isn't allowed in court without the permission of the judge, but it frequently is. Well, there are safeguards. This is a matter of the laws of the land. Parliament has said that there are circumstances in which a woman's previous sexual history can be relevant in court. And I need to be clear about that.

That's what Parliament has said. And that's what lawyers and judges are there to regulate. And so if it comes to trying to give people confidence, and I accept there's a crisis of confidence here, there's a professional judge who will have to rule before a woman's previous sexual history is even allowed to be discussed in front of the jury. And unless that judge gives the ruling, that won't happen. So the topic can be raised, but there are a lot of steps that you have to go through before someone is exposed to that sort of cross-examination. Now, another key change in the review is for victims to be able to give their evidence by video at an early stage of the complaint, rather than them having to wait months or even years to give it in person in court.

But this is only being done as a pilot in a few areas. So some victims and survivors feel that this is going to be a very slow rollout. It might take up to two years for this to be implemented everywhere. And I'm afraid that's it's beyond my control. What I can say is that we sometimes refer to this as Section 28 because of the Act of Parliament. The pre-recorded cross-examination of a survivor's testimony is something which I support and have long supported. We're dealing with cases here where not always, but often there will be a record of the account taken on video that can be played to court and wherever it is possible to then have the the legal challenges at the cross-examination

record that as well I endorse it I do think that that can relieve the pressure particularly on women who then won't have to wait until the trial starts. They will know that they've played their part. I can't answer for the speed of the rollout, but I encourage the wider use of it because I think it helps. Now, Robert Buckland acknowledged that budget cuts have played a part, but also he says it's about more than just money. It's about culture.

So as the director of public prosecutions, what are you going to do about that culture? Well, I can only try to lead from the front. And in doing that, I'm hugely supported by the dedication that I find right around the country every time I ask a question or I spend a morning or an afternoon with our rape and serious sexual offence units. I've been in this job now for two and a half years. I've spoken to all of the lawyers in those units. And if I didn't feel that they had a passion for this work, difficult though it is, a determination to ensure the right person is charged with the right offence every time the legal tests are met, I would tell you that. I do have confidence in

them. The task here is for everyone else to have confidence in them. And the various things that we've talked about this morning all add up to a raft of work that's already in place. We've all been affected by COVID, like everybody else. There are cases in the system right now which would have been concluded by now, but because of pressure on the court system, only a year ago, none of the courts were open. They were all shut. So that has exacerbated the delay. But this morning's rape review does give an unprecedented opportunity right across the criminal justice system. And all of us, and I'm one of the leaders involved, need to show how committed we are to improving every aspect of how these cases are handled in partnership

with the police and the courts. And if we do that, we will bring meaningful and lasting change. Max, we've had lots of our listeners getting in touch. And I just want to end our chat with an email that came in that says, I was raped nearly 18 months ago by someone I knew. He was a garden handyman who regularly came to the house. We'd bantered with texts, but I always rebuffed questions of going to his house or going anywhere together. My case did not get past the superintendent. The police were wonderful, as were the crisis team and rape welfare team. But I still feel cheated.

If the man's behaviour had been under scrutiny, I may have stood a better chance. But as it was, he said it was consensual. And that was that. Things have to change. I agree with you. And the mere fact that someone says it was consensual does not stop a prosecution. As I said earlier, we then have to prove that it wasn't consensual and that he didn't reasonably believe in consent. But that is not a reason for not putting the case into court. And that is what

we look to do. Max Hill, thank you very much. Now, Dame Darcy Bustle, I should say, former principal of the Royal Ballet and Strictly Judge, president of the Royal Academy of Dance and creator of Diversity Dance Mix, has now come to the rescue of Britain's ballet dancers. On a mission to raise spirits and money for struggling dance companies, she created the British Ballet Charity Gala at the Royal Albert Hall in London. The event will now be pay-per-view streamed from 7pm tonight and available on demand until the 18th of July. And she joins me now to tell me all about it. Darcy, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Oh, it's so lovely to be here with you, Anita. Lovely. Thank you for having me.

Tell me all about this gala. Why did you decide to create it? There was just a great need for it, basically. You know, a lot of these companies haven't performed for over a year and the unsureness of the area and the arts. And these are young artists, you know, at the beginning of their careers and it is a young person's career as well like an athlete the arts um and dancers they were desperate they were really desperate and i thought gosh if we can create a noise the only way we can do it is getting all probably of the eight leading companies together and of course that's a challenge in normal times because obviously um they've you obviously they were all looking after themselves

and looking after their dancers and keeping them in training and hoping to perform and everything. But with all the restrictions to get eight companies at the Royal Albert Hall was extraordinary, but everybody was behind it. And it was so exciting

because we had 65 dancers. I'd never even believed we could get that many um because normal galas usually are just the you know the starring couple of the of the companies um but we were able to get big groups of the companies onto that stage and the energy and their enthusiasm and the excitement uh it was it was just beautiful um and and so powerful to appreciate that performing arts you know has this strength to connect people and to uplift them and it was just a need it was a big need and I was so thrilled that it worked out and the funds raised go towards the ballet companies and each of them has nominated a community dance company to share the money raised. How vital is this? Yes, so important. I really want to create awareness that dance has a much bigger reach.

You know, it's wonderful that we have this highly skilled art and this beauty that we can go and see, you know, on stages across the country. But it was so important that we also realised that dance connects communities all around the country as well. And these people work incredibly hard with young kids and the elderly and all in different circumstances and helps their lives and their lifestyles so much. So it was brilliant that each company could nominate a community dance company and we could then show just a little bit of what they do with footage. I mean, it was a difficult time because obviously a lot

of these community dance companies weren't in practice. So just to get any sort of footage of what they do and what they do so brilliantly was really important. And that really resonated actually with the audience. Sadly, in the streaming, we won't be able to show because we had to condense the show into 90 minutes. We won't be able to show all of the nominated community dance companies,

but they will be on a link on the website so that everybody can see who was nominated for those. And that was really, it's great that we can do that. Absolutely. And it's wonderful, it's great that we can do that. Absolutely. And it's wonderful, Darcy, that you're doing this and celebrating dance and bringing us dance, bringing us dance. We've all been craving it so much. And you're right, dance is universal. You know, every culture dances.

But sometimes there is a concern that, you know, the amount it costs to be able to send your children to dance classes, or in the past, ballet has been seen as quite elitist how do you make dance accessible to all and I know you're quite invested in this yeah no I'm really invested in that and it's so important that every kid gets the experience and and has a taster of dance because it is so wonderful for your well-being and um yes, it is expensive. You go to private classes and if you want to go down the vocational route, you know, you have to get support and help

if you can't afford it. But the support is there. And of course, highlighting what the community dance companies do is exactly that. They are there and these wonderful groups and directors of these community dance companies really invest so much time in making sure that millions of kids get an opportunity to experience dance um i do a very small project myself for state schools as part of physical education

to make dance a normal practice to engage with kids in activities because, as you said, it's universal. It connects with every culture and it's enjoyable. It makes them smile. It makes them, you know, they don't even appreciate they're even exercising, you know, the focus and attention on the moves. And you can make it so inclusive and simple. It doesn't have to be highly skilled to enjoy it. But you're right.

It's got to be there for everybody. And we know dance became your life your world your amazing prima ballerina but but it empowered you as a child didn't it let's talk about when when you first started dancing and how it did that for you yeah I probably you know I probably didn't recognize when I was young what what it was doing to me um only uh I was I suffered really badly from dyslexia as a young child and so sitting in a classroom and focusing on words and a piece of paper and and numbers was you know just not not easy for me at all and I found that really difficult and dance was that wonderful way of creating a great confidence within me, something that I could achieve on, something I could build on, something that I had an ability to understand how I could express myself, you know, without words. Yeah, a way of connecting and understanding myself.

And then it was, I was, I felt good about myself, you know, and I think we forget that the arts has such an amazing tool for so many children. You know, if your vocabulary isn't as fluent and as good as you want it at a certain age, you know, dance has that ability to help kids gain confidence, to express themselves and to feel good about themselves and it definitely did

that for me i've got to ask you darcy because you know it's the buzz is happening i mean you had this amazing career as a ballet dancer and then you did something really surprising and became a judge on strictly completely well i love the show i love the show i mean and seeing you on there and seeing everybody go through these brilliant experiences being on it you know really stepping out of their comfort zone it you know it really just shows you what dance can do and and inspire and to motivate people you know activities and being physical obviously is an incredible important part of our well-being in our everyday life. And people forget that dance has just that tool. It's just a brilliant tool to make you exercise and feel good,

but not to an extreme, but is doing the job well. And to see those people just enjoy every minute of it. Of course, the music, the professional dancers. I mean, I loved being part of that show. It was something I'd never even appreciated I'd ever get a chance to do. But I loved that seven years I had on there. And it was wonderful to see you on there.

Darcy, good luck with the gala. We cannot wait to watch it. It's lovely. Yeah, it's streaming tonight. Don't miss it. Yeah, tonight. Brilliant. Come back and talk to us again anytime.

Thank you so much, Anita. Bye. Wonderful. A wonderful Dame Darcy Bustle. And you can see the event on pay-per-view streaming tonight from 7 o'clock. And it's on there until the 18th of July. Now, this Sunday is Father's Day. And a new film is out today on Netflix starring Kevin Hart.

And it explores the life of a single father raising his daughter. Simply put, it's called fatherhood. Mr. Lohman, Madeline doesn't have a mother to model after. I am well aware of what my daughter doesn't have. You think you can do this, but you can't. No, Mary, you're right, I can't do it. But you know what? I'm going to do it because I'm a father. Well, what is it like for the men who are lone parents?

And how do young women feel growing up without a mother? I spoke to fathers Pablo and Bruce and their daughters, Aaliyah and Keris, to share their stories. First, here's Pablo. I have three wonderful daughters. Currently, only Aaliyah is still at home. My eldest and my youngest have flown in this. All grown up, I'm even a grandfather now, so I have a 13-month-old grandson to occupy me. Congratulations. To test my parenting

skills all over again. And how about you, Bruce? I've got four children, two boys, two girls, and Teris is my eldest who is 18 in a couple of weeks. And they range down to a 10-year-old boy. And I've been doing it for the last eight years. And how has that been, Bruce? Hard work, don't get me wrong, but everything you give up to be that single parent, it pays back tenfold. It's a question that if I was doing a chat about single mums bringing up kids, it was probably a question that wouldn't come up. But how many times, both of you, Pablo and Bruce, have you been asked where mum is? It used to get asked a lot, yeah.

But the tendency was to ask if i just had them for the weekend that was what came around more it wasn't until i went to i tried to go to the parenting groups that they'd say to me next time can you send mom because you're making some of the other parents feel uncomfortable um and i don't mean to sound awful but there is a click that goes with them um when a man walks in there you are made to feel quite well i was made to feel quite uncomfortable and out of place gosh you know as a society we're trying to work towards more equality we want dads to have more of an active role in bringing up children and yet this is what happens when you do turn up as a dad to a parenting group Pablo can you um relate to any of this what Bruce

is saying not so much the parenting group context but um back in the days when my daughters were younger and just the fact that you'd go to the mother and babies clinic that's what it was called mother and babies clinic um Elia probably won't remember this but I would turn up I would have a double buggy and I'd have a sling with the youngest on the front and the receptionist would literally always look behind me like just to see who's coming in and almost like look at me like oh you're by yourself again you know she didn't quite get it that that was it that was me and my three girls bear in mind the mother and baby clinic as they're called or was back then if they're still called

that now that's where you had to go on a weekly basis with your red book for your children to get weighed and the medical checks and so on so forth just the fact that it was called mother and baby you know that in itself made it quite difficult and the fact that just simple things like when I wanted to get my daughters into education when I wanted to take them away to the Caribbean and take them on holidays I had to prove that they were my children I had to literally prove that they were my children for me to get a passport for me to register them in school just things like that just interrupt but i had to prove that they were my children when i was trying to register them with the doctors and the dentists 100% i had to prove that they lived with me and the mother wasn't around which if a

mother goes and does it then they don't have to jump through the hoops that I had to jump through I mean in reality you don't mind jumping through the hoops because you know you're right but you shouldn't have to jump through the hoops all the time also linking into what you just said about that I always feel that if I was a woman then um I don't think I'd get the kind of praise and credit and stuff like that. So people kind of say, oh, you're doing a fantastic job, I'm really proud of you. And I say to them,

if I was a woman, you'd expect me to do it. And sometimes it can be a little bit condescending, patronising, because it's almost like if being a man, I'm not supposed to be able to, you know, raise my daughters and look after them. Well, we are going to find out what the difficult bits of bringing up children as fathers on your own in a minute. But I want to bring your beautiful daughters in, Keris and Aaliyah.

So, Aaliyah, how would you describe your family set up when you were growing up? Well, as my dad said, you could tell that we were kind of different in regards to a family dynamic because you're used to seeing mums and dads or just a mum so obviously even like school times my dad would be the one to collect us whereas everyone else had their mum and their dads or just their mum. What about the reaction of people and your friends at school did they get it? I mean you know in school kids can be quite mean sometimes so I'm not gonna lie I used to get teased a little bit sometimes for like my mum not being around but I think because children are children they don't really know much about adult setups or dynamics so they're obviously

not going to know the ins and outs and they're not probably going to ask you the ins and outs and it's going to assume or say things you would get people that would stare or ask like well how come your mum's not here or how come your dad's always come to get you kind of thing I guess as a child you don't really know what to say back to the people because you don't really know the right words, I guess, to use in that aspect. So I found myself a bit dumbfounded quite a few times of what to say. Keris, can you relate to what Leah's saying? I can relate, exactly.

When we were first told that our parents were splitting up we didn't know like the ins and outs of it because I was nine and being the eldest obviously my siblings were quite a bit younger and being so young it's difficult to understand let alone explain but I remember having someone at my school who found out through the teachers talking about it and kind of pulled me aside and his parents had split when he was much younger than me and he just kind of told me that both your parents love you equally and like don't let that change your love for them and he kind of put it into perspective for me but obviously leaving primary school a year and a half later going to secondary school with nobody else from my primary school it was kind of like I didn't really know how to tell people

and then in year eight when I stopped seeing my mum completely I did actually experience quite a lot of bullying for it and people's best comeback was oh now I know why your mum left or things like oh you deserved what your mum did and obviously at the time that can be like really damaging because even though I was in year eight and it was maybe like four years on I still didn't understand the whole situation anyway so they were kind of using something against me that I hadn't quite got to grips with yet. So what do you do Bruce you know that must break your heart to hear that yeah absolutely it's um i i got to hear about it every day and you support them as much as you can and you try and guide them down the right lines and explain things to them but um children are

cruel um all i can do there is be there for her and support her and as much as I can like you say you've just got to be there haven't you I want to talk about some specifics about fatherhood being a single dad bringing up daughters particularly so let's let's get to the nitty-gritty Pablo let's start with potty training three girls how did that go down for you? Potty training was a messy experience there was there was a couple aspects of potty training and the first part of it was being a man obviously and me going to the bathroom and my daughters being of an age where they will start to walk around and creep around the house and being, I guess, mindful of not wanting to close the door all the time. There'd be the odd occasion where one of my daughters would peep around and

they'd see me standing up and go and pee, which then to my horror, you then find one of them standing up over the potty and also trying to mimic what I was doing. So then I decided, well, let's sit down. If I sit down and go pee, then it might help them understand that they sit down and go pee so that was me kind of being creative whilst having fun whilst getting messy and wet but yeah there's a lot of things like that and then you know like you say what happens when you go out and you have to take your daughter to the toilet I guess you know sometimes it's like okay mum take daughter to the toilet did you get any looks did you get any kind of definitely yeah it was always

that's probably the worst part isn't it because you're carrying um a young female and my girls look like girls you know into a bathroom and you kind of do the thing where you cover their eyes to go past the urinals and then you hope that you go into the toilet the cubicle and you hope it's going to be clean first and foremost and then sitting them down but it was more when you come out that was always the one there's kind of that awkward feeling where someone looks back as you walk out of a male toilet with a young girl in your hand you know you almost have to kind of mouth it's my daughter kind of thing you know you don't want any like where that looks but yeah you know there isn't like a manual about being a parent full stop let alone being a single parent and then having daughters those were the things that I guess gave me the most anxiety just

how do I relate to them being young girls and me being a man anatomy physiology being different those kind of things yeah and then the and then the joys of puberty bruce how do you tackle that i suppose being a man doesn't make it any easier but it's one of those things that you just have to put it all to one side and go this is what my child needs so it's grab the bull by the horn so to to speak, and go for it. Any apprehension or anything that you had before, you literally just have to put to one side and help them as best you can. I was lucky in that respect that I had my sister there to support me and my mum. But a lot of it was sort of, OK, I'm not honestly sure what I'm doing,

but we'll just go for it anyway. Well, we can find out how well you did because I'll ask your daughters. How did they do, girls? We used to go swimming because my dad used to be a swimming instructor. And whilst we were there, there was like a training coach, I think. She was quite a bit older than me, but I still got along with her and she was in a similar position to me. And it was like around the time that puberty was starting and she just pulled me to a side and was like if you need anything I'm here but the longer you leave this without talking to your dad the worse it'll be when you have to and I think I kind of had to sit back and think my mum's not around my dad isn't

gonna judge me for it because it's life. He has a sister. He has his mom. And it kind of just got to the point where you're just like, well, I'm going to have to tell him I'm going to have to talk to him about it because there's no one else to talk to about. And what if there's an emergency? So I think you kind of just have to push all the awkwardness aside and just think, well, this is life. Just get on with it. Yeah. And exactly that. It is life. And we should all be able to talk about it really shouldn't we but we do have these hang-ups what about you alia how was it how did pablo get through that period with all three of you when we was a bit younger you become a bit more self-aware

so you started up a bit more questions because obviously you realize well there's a difference um but i also as he said because we are quite close in age I think that helps a little bit because I had my sisters to kind of also be there for me as well in that sense because we kind of go through the same thing at similar ages but yeah he did he did a very good job with the tools that he had and well I think I'm a testament now because yes absolutely absolutely and what Pablo what were the moments what have been the toughest moments for you when you look back when where were the bits where you really struggled for my girls and me it was a combination of their mum going through a difficult situation where she wasn't like around but also

within our community and there was almost like a stigma attached to so me having three daughters and people saying oh they're with the same woman and I'm like yeah and my daughter's having to come home and explain that people are like are you sure your dad's like I'm Jamaican and they're you know because people are saying to them but they don't look after their kids so how come your dad's Jamaican and things like that it was just kind of coping with I guess the societal expectations that unfairly are placed upon you and and then when when I needed assistance I was lucky that I come from a very supportive family but at the same time there was a point when I had to reach out and social services helped out I received respite and that was difficult

because it felt like I failed if that makes sense even though the respite was essentially one weekend a month where the girls would go to a wonderful lady similar background Caribbean background and they would have Friday to Sunday together in that household and I'd have my time but that was difficult because there was almost a bit like a shame to it, the fact that I've had to do that. I guess those are the difficult times. What about you, Bruce? Can you relate to the struggles that some of Pablo's struggles? What were the toughest moments for you? I can relate to them in some way, yeah.

What I found hardest was being cut off from everyone and friends and whatever. I mean mean being a man and having male friends I was then in a position where it was like well I can't go to the pub I can't go to the football and I felt very lonely very isolated and much like Pablo says didn't know where to turn what advice Pablo would you give any sort of single fathers who are about to set out on a journey having to bring up like children on their own? I would say whilst it might be uncomfortable it's about being comfortable whilst being uncomfortable if that makes sense it's about realizing that the vulnerabilities that you may be feeling or you may have brought to your attention

are perfectly normal it's about making sure you can be authentic making or you may have brought to your attention are perfectly normal it's about making sure you can be authentic making sure you can have someone that you can bring your situation to because there is support out there it's about embracing that and it's about recognizing that actually it's not even about being a father it's about being a parent bruce i can i without even seeing you i can see you nodding away to that yeah absolutely i was nodding away to everything um i would say don't be scared i mean for men approaching single parent it's it's daunting and you sit there thinking i don't know what to do um but you've just got to throw everything you've got at it because you've got little eyes looking up at you

and you are their rock. You're their everything. I mean, your dads are amazing, both of you, Keris and Aliyah. I want, it might be people listening who are going through something similar. What advice would you give to young people or to anybody who's being brought up by their dads and only their dads?

What would you like to say? My first thing i would say is it's okay to ask questions even if you feel it might be a bit awkward with your dad or you're not too sure it's okay to ask questions because most times your dad is going to give you the best answers he can give you at the time as authentic that he can so it gives you much more knowledge into your situation if you're not sure what's actually happening. And, you know, if someone is picking on you, for instance, or anything like that, it's obviously not nice and it's not easy, but just know that you're loved at home, you're cared for at home. And to all the dads, I would say keep doing what they're doing because they do do amazing jobs

and they don't always get the credit that they deserve because of the stigma around being a man when it comes to children. And I just want to say thank you, really, because there's a lot of people that wouldn't look after their children because it is quite difficult. Me and Aaliyah kind of seem to have the same sort of experience in that my dad and Pablo obviously have done everything that they can for their children and obviously all I can say is thank you and just I hope that I can keep doing him proud. Brilliant single fathers Pablo and Bruce and their lovely daughters Aaliyah and Keris who spoke to me earlier and your messages are coming in an email here says our son Adam died suddenly after a short and devastating illness last July so please remember all the fathers out there,

whether they still have their children or not, he'll be finding Sunday sad and emotional, having only their memories to comfort them. And someone else has said, my biological father wasn't around due to alcoholism, but my stepdad, who I think of as my real dad, is incredible. He taught me to read when my school let me fall through the cracks because of dyslexia. He stepped in when I was eight and taught me himself,

and I was reading within months. Now. I know, I think it's a combination of hearing Diana Ross and having spoken to Darcy Bustle, but I was actually on my feet. With disco classics like Chain Reaction and Upside Down, Diana Ross has been getting us on our feet and dancing for decades. Billboard magazine declared her Female Entertainer of the Century in 1976,

and in 2021, she's still going strong. In September, age 77, she's released her first new music for 15 years, an album called Thank You, with plans to tour here next year too. To celebrate all things Diana Ross, I'm joined by the Sunday Times music journalist, Lisa Verrico. Very good morning, Lisa. Morning. You've heard the album. Any good? What do you make of it?

I haven't heard the whole album. I've heard the song Thank You, which is the title track, which is one that's just come out and that's the only thing that's been released so far but it's very very promising it's very good song will it get me on my feet it will get you on your feet but you look very cleverly done it's it sounds like post supreme's diana ross but kind of brought up to date and the they and they've done something that lots of older artists try to do and very few manage is they've teamed her up with hip young songwriters so Taylor Swift songwriter Jack Antonoff and Amy Wadge who's Ed Sheeran's sidekick but people who write for Bieber and Ariana Grande and quite often that you try to make someone sound young,

but it's very difficult to get someone to sound like the classic them but bring it up to date. And they've managed it. I don't know if they've managed it in the whole album, but on this thank you song they have. It feels like there's a Diana Ross for every generation. Is this going to open her up to a whole new legion of fans? Well, that's clearly the plan.

And she's in and out of fashion. I remember in the 90s when this Ultimate Collection came out, everybody was listening to that then. She comes in and out of fashion and hopefully, I mean the key thing is that she's touring. She was supposed to tour this year and a world tour and that's been put off till next year. But we find with a lot of older female artists is they don't want to tour and touring is key to getting new fans along. So if you look at the two biggest touring bands in the world are the eagles and fleetwood mac followed by the stones you know i saw billy jewel at wembley a couple of years ago and it was i couldn't believe it was packed with teenagers so if you're going to tour and also how you do social

media so for example the fleetwood mac's on took off and tiktok i mean that's pretty random but that can happen to anyone. But she is very Instagram friendly because of the outfits. Oh, yeah. She looks fabulous. She looks like 45 and she's, you know, she's super fit and she's still wearing those amazing gowns. I know people keep making this thing of her age.

I mean, even I had to say it, you know, she's 77, but no one bats an eyelid when you think of Jagger still on stage with the Rolling Stones or Fleetwood Mac. If look good in your fit which she absolutely is I mean I was in Germany a few years ago with Petula Clark right who was in her mid-80s she was playing at well quite a risky underground Berlin gay club lots of pictures I need I need photographs of this night amazing she was amazing she did an hour didn't stop. She said she walked something like 11 miles while she's on stage every night. And she's incredible. You wouldn't know. I mean, people don't go there and they say, oh yeah, Mick Jagger's old. I mean, Mick Jagger, to be fair, is the only one of the Stones that actually moves on stage. But a lot of older women, you look at Tina Turner's retired. Yes. a lot of older women, you look at Tina Turner's retired. Lots of older, you know, Stevie Nicks has always won at Fleetwood Mac, who says, oh, dear God, not another tour.

So a lot of older women, like they don't, you know, Shirley Bassey's just retired from touring, although she's still making music. And why is it, why is she, Lisa, very quickly, so iconic? Why is her music so iconic? So many hits, so many sing-along hits. So you're up dancing,'s it you know you can get people up dancing within a few seconds of the start of a song that people are always going to

love you and are you going to be digging out the best of album and get it in your car will you be singing along collection yeah well actually it was on cd so that's not going to work i'll find it on spotify lisa thank you very much for speaking to us uh just to end with a couple of lovely father's day emails my dad bob who's now 78 is the best dad imaginable he was wonderful when we were kids Lisa, thank you very much for speaking to us. Just to end with a couple of Lovely Father's Day emails. My dad, Bob, who's now 78, is the best dad imaginable. He was wonderful when we were kids, telling us stories every night, dancing with us to the Rolling Stones.

More recently, since I came out as gay, he's proven to be a staunch advocate for LGBTQ rights. I got lucky with him as my dad. And another one here says, I was listening to the two gentlemen talking about being single dads. As a health visitor, I want to reassure dads that things are changing.

That's it for me. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Welcome to Descendants, the series which looks into our lives and our past and asks something pretty simple. How close are each of our lives to the legacy of Britain's role in slavery? And who does that mean our lives are

linked to? Narrated by me, Yersa Daly Ward, we hear from those who have found themselves connected to each other through this history. Whoever you are, wherever you are in Britain, the chances are this touches your life somewhere, somehow. Descendants from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.