Woman's Hour - Dame Eileen Atkins; Equal pay; Harassment in Parliament; Composer Charlotte Bray

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

In our final discussion to mark our 75th anniversary we look at the issue of equal pay. This was identified as the area women most want to see change in their daily lives and 70% of those asked said they had experienced inequality in this area. Emma Barnett talks to Baroness Kishwer Falkner who’s head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission which regulates the Equality Act and also to Emma Satyamurti a lawyer leading a group action for equal pay by female staff working in Morrisons. Dame Eileen Atkins joins Emma to talk about the journey from being Tottenham's answer to Shirley Temple to hugely respected actor for stage, screen and TV. Her memoir is called 'Will She Do?'Today MPs are going to debate new government plans that would mean members who are suspended for sexual harassment or bullying could face a by-election. Labour want the measure to apply retrospectively - so that it would include the Conservative MP Rob Roberts who was suspended from Parliament for six weeks in May after an independent panel found he had sexually harassed a former employee. He did not face a petition to trigger a by-election due to a loophole in parliamentary procedure - because the panel that handed down his suspension doesn't have those powers. BBC political correspondent, Chris Mason, explains.Composer Charlotte Bray has composed new song cycle called Crossing Faultlines. Believed to be the first of its kind to address the topic of women in the workplace, the song cycle explores themes of mentorship, discrimination and ambition. The piece was commissioned as part of a new recital programme dream.risk.sing: elevating women’s voices, an initiative conceived to express women’s stories through song. Emma is joined by Charlotte Bray, Samantha Crawford and Lana Bode.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Anna LaceyInterviewed Guest: Baroness Kishwer Falkner Interviewed Guest: Emma Satyamurti Interviewed Guest: Eileen Atkins Interviewed Guest: Charlotte Bray Interviewed Guest: Samantha Crawford Interviewed Guest: Lana Bode

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. Work and how women work is a theme of today's programme, not least because it was the area flagged during our poll about equality to mark Woman's Hour's 75th birthday, where women wanted, demanded the most change. We will get to that shortly and the nuts and bolts of pay

and what happens to women's trajectory in various workplaces. But what I wanted to ask you today was about those individuals who have helped you in your working life, whatever it is. One of my guests today, the actor and writer Dame Eileen Atkins, who's just written her memoir about the early stages of her career, describes those people in her life as saviours. Perhaps you call them something else, perhaps they're mentors, champions, angels, the people who pick you up by the scruff of your neck and tell you what's what and to keep on keeping on. Who are they and what have they said or done that has stayed in your mind

and perhaps kept you going when things have got tough in your working life? Text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. I'm very much looking forward to hearing some of these stories and some of these sayings. I should say text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, you can get in touch with me via at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. Also on the programme today, new music and poetry about the reality of being a working woman and some of the modern working women's lives elements that haven't quite been put to song or poetry, it seems yet. More about that to come and a potential change in Parliament that many feel is long overdue. Again, more details

to come, so stay with us for that. But to mark Woman's Hour's 75th anniversary a couple of weeks ago, we commissioned a poll about the state of equality in this country. And we have been exploring in the programme since some of the themes that arose, all of which you can catch up on BBC Sounds. But that one area that was identified as the one women want to see the most change in their daily lives about was the issue of equal pay and equity at work. The gender pay gap in the UK has widened despite efforts by the government and regulators. That's according to the latest data. Analysis shows the disparity between what men and women earn in the same companies

is getting worse across many sectors in the UK. Women were paid 87 pence for every pound paid to men in the figures leading up to April 2020. I'm joined now by Baroness Kishwa Faulkner, who's the head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which regulates the Equality Act, and also by a lawyer called Emma Satamurti, a lawyer leading a group action for equal pay by female staff working in Morrison stores. Welcome to you both. Kishore, I thought I'd start with you and ask what stood out for you with our survey when seeing what women had to say about pay and work? Hello, Emma. Good morning. Yes, it was a really worthwhile survey, it's been so informative. What stood out for me was that, of course, as you say rightly, a third of women thought that

work and that money was a significant factor, pay. What stood out for me was the difference between the age cohorts. So older women thought that was more important and younger women didn't seem to think it was so important. And that I found rather concerning because as you say, in many areas, things are not getting particularly better. And we know the pension pay gap, which is something entirely different, but matters because women live longer than men is is widening as well is extremely wide so are you concerned that women are not tuning into this till later on yes i mean i think that's right and i think it's partly due to a lack of proper knowledge imparted

to children in schools about what money means, what borrowing means, what compound interest means, and financial, if they call it financial inclusion, I don't use the word inclusion. I think it's so fundamental. And we really should be teaching children about budgeting and about understanding how the modern world, particularly the way consumers now buy things, understanding how the modern world operates in terms of money and credit and their own ratings and their own savings plans. I mean, there's been a huge push, you know, not just to do with women and girls across the board to improve that and our personal finance education being something that many have spoken about needing improvement and the pension side

of things as well, too. If I bring you back to the idea of equal pay and the gender pay gap, they are different, aren't they? And I thought it'd just be useful at this point to explain the difference. Thank you. Yes, they are quite different. Equal pay, Emma will be the expert on that, but equal pay is when you need to be paid the same for doing equivalent roles. Gender pay gap is very different. And equal pay, by the way, I should say, celebrating 50 years since the Equal Pay Act came in this year, but equal pay is illegal.

The gender pay gap is the difference between the average earnings of men and women across a workforce, hourly earnings, and essentially why it looks at, the gender pay gap looks at why men and women, or whether men and women first, whether and then why they're paid differently. So it's not about doing exactly the same job. It applies to companies with 250 or more employees. And it's about the progression of women through the company, how they're treated, because most women come in equally. If you're a

graduate, if you're recruited in the graduate recruitment round, then you, along with boys, girls and boys, young women and young men will come in around the same scale. As they progress, it seems to us that men get promoted higher, they end up earning more money. And women fall off or come out earning less money, because they might have taken maternity leave, they might not have been offered promotions. So subtle discriminations happen to them through life that results in the gender pay gap widening in some companies. Let's come back to the gender pay gap in just a moment. But to come to you, Emma, on what should be illegal, unequal pay, the same pay for the same work. You're actually challenging this at

the moment. You're working on a big group claim. I thought it might be good to give an example, representing women at Morrisons who work in their stores. They want equal pay with the men working in depots and logistics. And they're earning between £1 and £4 less an hour. They say it's not fair and they argue, and some would say customer service is arguably more skilled. That's right. Yes. And just to sort of clarify that equal pay for equal work is the fundamental right that we're talking about.

So in these cases that we're running against the supermarkets and other retailers, we're not arguing that the women that we represent are doing the same job as the men that they're comparing themselves but that the work is of equal value and it's really important that that provision exists it was brought in later than it should have been into the equal pay act because that's the way you can really start to challenge gender segregation in the workplace. We had a really important decision in our similar equal pay case against ASDA, which is further on. And just to mention that that was after the Supreme Court ruling against ASDA in March when judges said two jobs could be considered comparable. But two weeks ago in this particular case, the Leeds Employment Tribunal confirmed that more than 2,300 of Morrison's retail workers, who are mostly women,

can rely on the supermarket's distribution centre workers as comparators in their claims for equal pay. So that's also moving in a similar direction. Exactly. That's exactly right. And the important point about that is that what the courts have consistently said from tribunal to Supreme Court is that employers can't pay men and women unequally by the kind of rules of separating them into different workplaces. And that is a really important step forward. by the kind of ruse of separating them into different workplaces. And that is a really important step forward. Step forward, as you see it from your side of things, as it were. A Morrison spokesperson said, the decision does not decide if retail and logistics roles are of equal value. Morrison pays a fair day's wage for a fair day's work

and will continue to fully defend these proceedings. What would you say to that? Well, I would say that they don't and that the work done by the women in the schools is of equal value to the men in the logistics division and that a fair day's pay for a fair day's work would see those pay levels equalised. Emma, taking a step back then, working on a case like this and with the experience that you have got, of course, when it hits the courts, that's a completely different situation, whether that's tribunal or a different kind of court. How do you know if you are in that situation, let's say you're listening to this programme and you suspect you're doing a very similar role to a guy in the same organisation and you're not getting the same pay. Well, that's such an important issue because one of the big barriers for women in achieving equal pay is they simply don't know. And pay transparency is a real block.

The Fawcett Society recently worked with a number of lawyers and other stakeholders to know, which would address that issue and give women much greater scope for requesting pay information about potential comparators, potential men being paid more than them for equal work. Unfortunately, that hasn't yet progressed very far through the parliamentary process, but Stella Creasy introduced it, and we hope it will continue.

Because that's one of the elements here, isn't it? And when we did this poll, that coming back that people wanted equality, greater equity in how they are either treated at work or paid, but you often don't know about pay, it's a bit of a cycle and a bit of a vicious circle in many ways for people to find out. I personally remember working, if about saviors, working with a woman who told me I was being paid considerably less what a man was doing in a previous job, not at the BBC, I'll state at this point. And it was her leaving gift to me as she left to tell me that. And, you know, I then obviously I looked to get it benchmarked, something I've written about before and I didn't know you could do.

And I was pretty early on in my career and it was amended. But through that gift of knowledge, if she hadn't have done that, there's no way of knowing. Exactly, exactly. And that's a real problem. Kishore, that brings me to negotiation. So let's say you can't find out for sure and what's actually going on. What is your view, your overview of this, having looked at trying to equal the playing field between men and women at work, whether it comes to pay or treatment, but sticking with pay for a moment, about women and negotiation? It's a difficult one. You know, Sheryl Sandberg, when she wrote the book Leaning In some years ago, sort of advised women to negotiate like blokes. And I think there is, I know that in my own

personal life, that there is a reticence. We're not blokes. Why should we be made to feel like blokes? But on the other hand, there is inequality of treatment that is so blatant that women need to adopt strategies to ensure that they do get the knowledge that they need to have. And if that means networking, if that means more women supporting each other, I mean, I myself, you know, like your experience, have had to undone things when I discovered that I wasn't being paid what the guy was being paid.

So there is an element of solidarity amongst women themselves, but we also need greater transparency. And I should say for your listeners that it is possible to speak to companies, HR departments, about whether there is a suspicion, as you said, seek benchmarking and other things. There are quite a lot of things that exist at the moment that one might be able to do if one has concerns.

And we should employ all of those strategies. We shouldn't be reticent about our suspicions, about being treated badly. We've got to step up because it's a fight not only for us, the individual, me, the individual, but it's a fight for everyone else in the workplace. And it's quite extraordinary when one person stands up that others take note. And it's sort of behaviour, that good behaviour that actually spreads. It's also when it's not a case of black and white, somebody being paid differently for the same sort of work. it is what you were starting to talk about there, which is how we calculate and look at the gender pay gap.

It's about all sorts of subtle prejudices and discriminations that happen. And also, let's not shy away from it, some decisions that end up happening in women's lives, which they may not feel are decisions that they have much control over some of the time, that are often linked to caring responsibilities that lead to either different roles being pursued or different hours available. That's exactly right. And I have to say that I think it becomes most difficult when women work part-time or flexibly. And we've got to improve practice amongst employers in that regard. How do you do that, though? I mean, apart from saying that here on Womza, you hope it might have an impact. But that's about cultural shift and especially after something like a pandemic where we've seen women essentially head back into so many of those traditional roles because they had to homeschool and their job was the one that had less money attached to it. So you're right, it is culture, but it's also law as well. And we're seeking to

expand our powers by having the power to directly fine employers where we find gender pay gaps that don't seem to have a plausible explanation. We want employers to have to sign up to do compulsory action, mandatory action plans. At the moment, it's voluntary. And we have to go to court to fine employers. We'd like the power to fine ourselves so we can be agile, speedy, get to grips. And it sends a great signal to employers that they can't hide behind the fact that they don't understand why their data is showing them

deteriorating trends. Hang on. So how much are you going to fine them if you get this power? Well, courts have issued fines in the past. And there will be, like all things that involve legal action, there will be grades and scales related to the misdemeanor. Have you got any scale you could share? I mean, what's the highest fine that's been given by a court

for a firm being sexist against its female staff? Well, you see, that's the key. And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about something as vague as being sexist against female staff. We're talking about very specific actions that employers, that we asked employers to take and they don't take. We don't rush to fine. We wouldn't rush any more than we rush to court. We don't rush to fine instantly. What you do is that the first step is the narrative.

Employer must provide a narrative, an explanation in other words, to women of why they think this is happening. The next step is to ask them to explain further. So we have discussions with employers. We write to them. We seek further information. We look at whether we're convinced by the outcome of the explanation. Then we decide to take legal action. So it would be an iterative step like that.

The other point to make is that actually, interestingly, larger employers are rather better. And that's why I can't say to you what one would find, because it depends on the size of the employer, the size of the gap and so on. But what we're finding in the evidence is that larger employers are somewhat better at looking at it, at being more on top of their figures, at trying to understand. But the most important thing is since this regulation came in in 2017, we have found that 67% of companies now escalate this issue up to the board level. It's not sitting in the human resource department any longer. It's going right up to boards. More than two thirds of the better employers are discussing this at board level

because they realise what an impact it has on their own female... When you say this, what are you talking about specifically? The gender pay gap. The gender pay gap, sorry. I just wanted to keep it... When I talked about sexism, I was trying to couch some of what you're going to be looking at,

which has perhaps driven it, whether it's unwitting or witting. But you're talking about reasons for which there may be a gender pay gap. That's right. Okay. So just to come back to Emma for a bit more practical advice.

Emma, apart from what Kishore said and about the law and what both of you have said, going to your HR department if you suspect something isn't quite right is one route. What else should you do? I think another thing that would really help would be male allies. So if men were more willing to talk about what they earn, that would obviously equip their female colleagues with the information that they need as you were describing in in your own case obviously that came from a female colleague but if men were

were more transparent employers having transparent pay scales across their um different roles would also help obviously one wouldn't know that they were being stuck to, but it would be a starting point for women to be able to see where they sit in relation to other roles. So those are some of it. And I suppose then the other elements of it were much bigger than this conversation, aren't they, Kishwa, which are around what we reward in society

and how we um how affordable things are like care and what what impact that has as you say on going part-time exactly yes much bigger let me come Kishwa just while I do have you to remind you if you've just joined us Kishwa is the head of the equality and human rights commission which regulates the equality act amongst many other things but that's at the heart of it. It was reported yesterday that your commission is planning to draw up guidance for hospitals and businesses about preserving single sex spaces, whether it's wards or toilets. Have you been asked to do that? We were recommended. It was a recommendation of the Women and Equalities Committee as far back as 2019. Right.

And the Women and Equalities Committee is our parliamentary watchdog. So MPs have asked you to do that some time ago, but it's back in the news because? Because we've been, naturally, we, like other organisations, had our workload affected by the pandemic. But as well as senior changes within the organisation. So we've been looking at this for some months as we've started to emerge from the pandemic in terms of our work and our strategic plan and our work plan. And yes, we hope to report in January 2022. And what are you looking at? For people who aren't that familiar with that parliamentary committee, what are you hoping to give businesses? Because there are concerns at the moment around people doing, or businesses rather, I should say, and people in

those businesses doing the wrong thing. Yes. I mean, we have through our complaints and other information that we collate, we find that there is increasingly a problem in that businesses don't seem to understand that there are exceptions to non-discrimination on single sex spaces within the Equality Act. So we're not inventing anything new. All we're going to do is explain in practical terms to different kinds of businesses and institutions, public and private institutions, what the Equality Act actually says about being able to, in this case, discriminate in favour of women. It has to be legitimate. It has to be justifiable. And within those parameters, that exception is allowed. So are you saying, if I may, are you saying at the moment that places like, whether it's hospitals or businesses that have, you know, toilets within them, whether that's for their own staff or for the public, are you saying they don't have the clarity at the moment

to keep, let's say, separate sex-based areas? Well, it appears to us that they don't because they aren't, in many of the complaints we've received, they're not using BEEC sections as they might. Who's complained? We get a range of complaints from the public. We exist as the equality body for the whole of the country. Everybody is covered by protected characteristics. I'm just trying to get a flavour. Have people been complaining about the fact that there aren't, for instance, women's toilets in a, I don't know, I'm looking at Eileen Atkins who's just joined me in the studio, in the theatre?

We get the majority of the complaints come from experts in the field who point out to us that the exception in organisations' websites is wrongly interpreted. So you're hoping to provide clarity to whom, if you represent the whole country and all organizations who will use this beyond experts which businesses i'm trying to relate this to my to our listeners lives here it's there for all institutions and organizations to use so that's the way this goes we'll we'll address some some factors particularly to public institutions and some to private institutions as i said we want it to be practical and we'll be giving practical examples and looking at practical models of how they might implement this. What is your reaction to this work needing to be done?

This is me, you're still speaking to Kishwa. Yes, Kishwa, excuse me, as the head of the EHRC. So I'm not sure I understand your question in terms of what is my reaction to this. My point is, there'll be some people thinking, why does this guidance need to be written at the moment? You know, there's always been, for instance, women's toilets, men's toilets, women's wards in hospitals, men's wards. Why does there need to be further clarification of the law on this matter at the moment? Because it seems to us the law isn't being used effectively and it seems to us that there are instances that are being pointed out to us. I'm not going to go beyond that, Emma, but there are instances of organisations that have been

pointed out to us where they don't seem to be using the exceptions that exist. I'm not going to name institutions. No, no, Sorry, I wasn't expecting that. It's the types of institutions, which I was trying to just understand where there seems to be. It's fair to say some private businesses, some retail businesses, some areas of the NHS, some areas of other public bodies. You and I know, you know, some arts institutions. I mean, I recently went to a certain theatre where I discovered that there was no single-sex space for women other than one toilet right in the rafters, very far away from where the seating was.

And so it would have taken, in a tight interval, a long time for a woman to get up there, particularly if it was an elderly woman, without any lifts present and climbing long flights of steps. It's something I think your listeners will have experienced that in their daily life as they go around daily life, that there is a sort of loss of women's toilets and women's facilities when they look around them. Things that used to be there that aren't any longer there.

And are you seeking, as some would put it, to correct that? Well, I think we're hoping that all we need to do is point out what the law says. We're hoping that organisations will draw their own conclusions from that. It's a nudge, if you say, rather than a hammer. Well, you've been in the job. I remember we spoke very early on, about 10 months ago or so, and I look forward to talking more about that

because you're going to report, you say, in January, so perhaps we'll talk maybe around that time and see what you come back with. Baroness Kishore Faulkner, Head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, thank you very much for your time. And you're also listening now to the lawyer, Emma Satyamurthy, who is leading a group action

for equal pay. You've been getting in touch with some of the people who've affected your working lives and some strategies. Ray says the best strategy is for women to join a trade union and fight collectively.

Imagine raising issues with HR as individuals. No way that'll work. Betty says get companies to publish all relevant information in their annual reports. Refuse honours to chief executives and directors of companies who don't practice equal pay throughout all the ranks of their companies. Fiona says the subject of equal pay is not only gender based. Pay should be published so that all employees can check their value. Be they women, men, whatever colour, whatever age,

all human traits that may influence an employer. Unequal pay needs to be addressed for everyone. Another one from Diane here. When I was working, my daughter was diagnosed with an incurable genetic condition. My workplace wasn't sympathetic, but one of my work colleagues was my rock. Talking about some of your saviours here.

She'd take me to one side and say, you're a mother, that's a superpower in itself, you're holding a job down, a household, school and now hospital. She'd ring me at home and let me cry my eyes out and then she'd say, now that's released some of those emotions, now go wash your face, put a smile on and be that tough mother you are. She was a star, always there to listen. She knew she couldn't physically change anything but realised I needed someone to listen to how unfair it all was. Thank you so much for that message. And many more have come in.

And perhaps we'll hear some of Dame Eileen Atkins' saviours now, because you may know her as Queen Mary in The Crown or in Cranford or Doc Martin or from her many stage roles. But she's now decided to write a memoir about how a working class girl from Tottenham became one of our most revered stage roles. But she's now decided to write a memoir about how a working class girl from Tottenham became one of our most revered stage actors. Born in London in 1934, her mother was a seamstress. Her dad read electricity meters for the council. And after a prediction from a gypsy on the doorstep, she'd be a great dancer. She took lessons and began work as Baby Eileen in working

men's clubs. The book is called Will She Do? And you may have heard it, as I did, on Book of the Week, read by Eileen last week on Radio 4. You can, of course, catch back up on that on BBC Sounds. But Dame Eileen Atkins, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for joining us today. And I was charmed to read that you wrote your memoir

In Biro, In Bed. Absolutely. I've just been absolutely fascinated by that talk that you've just had because I can't believe, my mouth is open, I can't believe that I had my first professional job like 70 years ago and being outraged to begin to understand that leading men got paid more money than leading women. And I'm just appalled this is still going on in any form whatsoever.

Well, on that then, because I know we want to talk about sort of where it all began, but did you ever have those conversations? Was that done by an agent or did you ever talk to your colleagues, your male colleagues? Well, your money is usually done by an agent, but I didn't have one for the first 12 years so I did my own money and I do remember having um an argument on a tour we were doing where I was told that everyone had got the same amount of money we were touring for 11 pounds a week and that was it. There was no way I could have any more. And then I got very friendly with one of the men and I said, I find it so hard getting digs and having enough money on what they're paying us. And he said, yes, 13 pounds doesn't go very far, does it? And I realized that I was getting 11 and he was getting 13. And I went straight to the management and said, how dare you? You said it was equal pay for everybody. And I did get equal pay for everybody.

Did you? Yes. And it was a complete lie. Everybody had a different amount of money, you know, and they had to put everybody right. And we all got 13. But I think one of the great taboos is still talking about money. I'm very open. I tell people how much I'm getting for movies and things like that. And they look at me in horror thinking, is she going to expect me to tell her how much? It's not spoken about.

Why do you think you've got that openness? Oh, because I'm too blunt. That definitely comes across, which is why one of the reasons I enjoyed the book. But do you think it was also your background as well, being very straightforward about things and where you've come from? Yes, I don't know how straightforward

my mother and father were, but they produced a child who was very, but it's like this, you know. Well, I have that. I just was, I think, blunt from quite a young age. But I think I was pretty clear that my, you know, money was talked about at home. I still think that it's one of my working class things I have to watch if I'm with very posh

people, that you don't mention money. The unmentionable. Because I'll say to somebody very rich, how much did that cost? And you're not supposed to say that still. Yes. Well, you never had to think about it, right? It's one of those things that wouldn't be mentioned. And yet it's, you know, I remember talking to somebody, a fellow journalist, and she said, there's only two questions I ever want to ask people. How much do you get paid? And what do you like to eat?

And I thought, that's quite a good rule, really. It is. Yes, I like that conversation already. Well, this is where we are, Eileen. But I also love the fact that, did you actually write this whole book in biro? I sure did, in biro. In biro? Because I don't even go on the internet, so I can't type. And it was heavenly. I had a heavenly time because I wrote, had a walk down by the river where I live, and then came back, wrote some more, cooked and went to bed. I

found it heavenly and saw three good friends the whole time. I had a lovely time doing it. But I was very shocked when it actually came out because when I was writing, I was thinking, who the hell is going to be interested in what you were eating in 1942? But my editor would say, your history, so it's history. So she would encourage me to write another chapter, but I love doing it. We have been talking about this throughout the programme. Saviors, your saviours. Tell us about those, the people that meant a huge amount, in particular, was it EJ at school? Oh, EJ. But before that, there was a very peculiar woman who I half hated, who was my dancing mistress, who was an amazingly pretentious, awful woman who spoke like that. And but she was she gave me my first book.

There were no books in the house and she gave me the appetite to read immediately. And she also paid for a tiny school when I behaved badly, when I was finally sent to school when I was seven. I hated it. And she paid me. She paid the two guineas a term, which I didn't find out then until later. Wow. For school. So she was really, although I didn't like her, my first saviour. My second one was my teacher at grammar school who'd heard that my mother had sent me with a note to school asking would they teach me to speak properly

and then an English teacher said she'd do it and my mother said no, seven and six is too much money. We can't afford that. And he just stopped me in the corridor one day and said, hey, you, I hear you want to learn to speak properly. And I said, well, my mum wants me to learn to speak properly. I didn't care one way or the other. And he said, well, I'll do it for no money,

but you come after school whenever I say so. And we had an extraordinary relationship. Four out of five nights a week, I would be with him for an hour or so after school. And that wasn't until I left school years later that I found out that other teachers patrolled the room that I was in with him. But he was immaculate. I mean, he never, he never stepped out of line, except that, and I didn't adore him. I just loved being with him because he opened up the world to me, because he then started talking about the world, whereas at home, nobody had a conversation, if you know what I mean. The conversation was just about where were we going and what to eat, really. Well, the key questions, as we were just saying.

No, but it must be extraordinary as an adult to have, you know, many years on, to reflect on what those people gave you and those doors that they opened. And then that's the power of teaching, isn't it? Oh, I would give teachers everything, really. I mean, there are a lot of them. I know today, I know a few good, very good teachers, and their work is wonderful. But when you get something like I had with him, he did totally save my life. You mentioned that your parents and what it was like at home and what was talked about or rather what wasn't and there is a real sadness and sometimes anger about that gap that opened up

between you and your parents as you carried on with this dream you got a scholarship you began to spout Shakespeare and then act and and then not necessarily appreciating some of those things that you were doing as that gap opened. They didn't appreciate what I was doing at all, no. It was hard. I mean, I see how hard it was for them now. But of course, as a child, I just got angry and annoyed. And, you know, why don't they want to come? You know, he took us to, the teacher took my mother and me to see my first play. I'd never seen a play when I was 12.

We were taken to King John. And, you know, my mother was going mad with boredom. And it just began to make a very difficult situation in my teens between my parents and me. But if you have a child that gets educated way beyond you are, there is always this awful gap. And that tension and how you navigate that can be very difficult. Yes. And when you're, I mean, I forgive myself a bit, but I did behave very snobbly towards them. I forgive myself now because you're the child, you know, but it is very hard. And all these mothers who want to push their children, I would just like to warn them now, just watch how much you push, because you might be pushing them totally away from you.

Did you find a way to relate back or repair it between you? No, I didn't. It was rather sad. You know, I would visit them all my life and in fact things were sort of all right between me and my mother when I... Particularly in my second marriage, he suggested we saw more of her.

And by then my father had died and she was on her own. And I was old enough then not to do it, you know, to live her life when I was with her and not to bother her with any other stuff but you know they didn't come and see me in the theatre um when you were doing these in incredible role yes which which is you know you always think the parents or the family you know must be there being so proud but I think think we call it now social mobility, don't we? It's got that phrase. But actually, some of the other sides of that are less discussed. Yes.

Which I think the book gives a real window to. But I do also love the fact that it was a prediction from a gypsy on the doorstep, as you put it, that led to all of this. And the book actually ends just before, as you're about to really make it, in Broadway, which, why did you choose to do that rather than do what many people do, then is a much longer book and go through, if you like, the rest of it? Or are you planning a part two in Biro? No, no, no, I'm not planning part two.

Because I think it gets boring when actors go on and then I did this and then I did that. And then they start giving all their best reviews and everything and I just think it gets rather boring. Also when I first started writing this I was really thinking of trying to write a book that would be encouraging to actors in one way that I'd had such a hard time I mean you really had. I don't know if we've dwelled on that now. But this book is my favourite part of people's stories, if I can put it like that, because it's the hustle. It's the total hustle each time.

Every time you had to say something to somebody, you would be grumpy if you didn't get a line. All these different things that you had to say. And you also were fired quite a lot from different things. Yes, well, I did have a bad temper. And I did say what I thought. And, you know, most people say, yes, yes, that's lovely to directors. And I tend to say, what?

What are you asking me to do? You know, so, yes, I sometimes was my own worst enemy. Would you recommend that? Not just to actors though now, you know, for women listening, you're, I'm not, I think, late 80s, are we to say, your age? I'm 87. 87. I was going to say 87, but if you get it wrong, it's even worse. But as you are at this point, is there anything you would like to say to some of the younger women listening about coming up in the world and working we've been talking about it all morning yes well in in my world it isn't quite the thing of the fight with the men fight i don't mean fight with them but there has been i mean when they were talking then about um i was thinking about the garrick still being closed to women where so much work is done. I thought that was outrageous that there are still places like that.

You're talking about the male-only members club, the Garrick, yes. Yes, yes. Because people do talk and find out things by social intercourse, which I don't know what I'd say to anybody now about it because in our world you are taken on your in the acting world you're taken on the worth finally when you've made it in any way at all it's how how many bums do you put on seats and if the man's going to put a whole lot more bums on seats than me, then give him the money.

Yes. But I suppose that being outspoken will be something that people could take something from and how hard it was because you haven't held back from saying that. And I love the title, Will She Do? Well, some people ask me where it's from. It's not from anywhere. But mostly as you're an actor, if you're doing an audition piece,

they've been seeing people all day for this part. And you finish the piece. Nobody says, sometimes they're polite enough to say thank you. And then there's a little talk in the stalls and you've been on the stage. And then finally you hear a very tired stage manager who's been trying to get them to cast all day say to them well will she do and that's and in this case I felt it applied to my whole life your whole life well it's been lovely to to be able to read the book and also a real joy to talk to you Dame Eileen Atkins thank you you very much indeed. Thank you very much Emma. It's been a total pleasure.

There you go. The book is called Will She Do? Act One of a Life on Stage. And you can hear Eileen read it on BBC Sounds or parts of it I should say and that's a real treat too. Now I mentioned a change in Parliament that people may feel is long overdue. You may remember that women were behind the dossier that led to Westminster being nicknamed Pestminster in 2017. That was a redacted list of Conservative MPs accused of inappropriate behaviour in Parliament. But four years on, is it a safer place to work?

Today, MPs are going to debate new government plans that would mean members who are suspended for sexual harassment or bullying could face a by-election. Labour want the measure to apply retrospectively. You may remember this case, so it would include the Conservative MP Rob Roberts, who was suspended from Parliament for six weeks in May after an independent panel found he'd sexually harassed a former employee. He did not face a petition to trigger a by-election due to a loophole in parliamentary procedure because the panel that handed down his suspension

doesn't have those powers. To give us a bit more insight on this, BBC political correspondent Chris Mason. Chris, they're going to vote today, is that right? Yeah, within the next couple of hours, Emma, there should be a debate and a vote and it looks like this will change. As you say, there's this kind of quirk in the rules,

the way that the standing orders of Parliament work, whereby someone who was found in this instance, so taking Rob Roberts, the former Conservative MP, now sits as an independent, that he was found to have sexually harassed a member of staff. the independent panel doesn't have the power to say therefore there should be what's known as a recall petition where a constituency is asked do you want to sign a petition and if 10 percent of eligible registers voters do that triggers a by-election and therefore potentially leads to another MP being elected or maybe the MP in question being re-elected but ultimately the power is handed back to the voter. A quirk of the rules meant that this independent panel don't have that power even though the Common Standards Committee, another organisation within Parliament, does have that power if it's looking into other things for instance accusations relating to expenses. So what is likely to happen today because it does look like this will pass, is that the two things will be tied together. So in future, if someone was

found to have sexually harassed a member of staff and a similar sanction was handed down by this panel, there would be a mirroring of the sanction by the Standards Committee, which would mean there could be a recall petition sanctioned. Chris, this may be an impossible question to answer, but I know that you like to try as well, to answer as well as pose them in your many roles. The one that I wanted to ask was how big an issue is this at the moment in Westminster? I mentioned that Pestminster dossier. Of course, there were reports.

Dame Laura Cox, for instance, led a report into bullying and harassment of House of Commons staff in Westminster. I mentioned that Pestminster dossier. Of course, there were reports. Dame Laura Cox, for instance, led a report into bullying and harassment of House of Commons staff in 2018. But a lot of this obviously goes on behind closed doors. It does. I think you're right. It is an impossible question to answer, but it's a fair question

because ultimately it's why does this actually, you know, how much does this actually matter? I think there's been a big cultural change within Parliament about people's willingness to talk about it. Perhaps not as big a cultural change as some would like to see happen. And as a result of all of those headlines and the investigation that our colleagues on News Night did, there has been these new systems put in place. Right at the heart of this, Emma, which makes it different, I think, from other places where there is an employee employer relationship is the weird quirk at Westminster where as an MP who actually is your

employer because you're elected on a party ticket almost always and it's the colour of your result which almost always determines whether or not you win and yet once you are elected it is your seat as an individual rather than your party's seat. So in this instance with Rob Roberts, he was suspended by the Conservative Party. The whip was removed. But that means he's still an MP, he's an independent MP. So how do you have a system which ensures that the real employer, which is you or me as a voter in a constituency, gets a say,

hence this desire to change the rules. Speaking to people around Parliament, I think there are some people who are still concerned, but there is a hope that, as I say, with these new procedures to try and offer some sort of recourse when allegations are made, that that A, means that people have a process to follow, and then B, more broadly, the hoped for kind of cultural shift, which so many people want to see in so many walks of life.

Yes, well, another piece to what we've been talking about today, about our working lives and the culture around them. Chris Mason, thank you very much for putting us in the picture about that vote that's about to happen in a couple of hours' time in the comments. Well, throughout the programme, work and how women work has been a theme lovely message here in my 50s my manager put me forward to do a part-time university course his belief in me led me to retrain and change my career when i was 58 years old brilliant there no idea what you went on to do no idea who you are no name attached to it but thank you very much for that message and it's a

lovely one too and it chimes with many of the others we've been hearing about today. Well, now I'm joined by the composer, Charlotte Bray, who's written a new song cycle. I'll find out what that is in a moment called Crossing Fault Lines, believed to be the first of its kind to address the topic of women in the modern workplace. The song cycle explores the themes of mentorship, discrimination and ambition. Of course, Dolly Parton targeted that, I suppose, in 9 till 5. The piece was commissioned as part of a new recital programme, Dream, Risk, Sing, which is designed to elevate women's voices and an initiative conceived to express women's stories through song.

And the programme is run by musicians and performers, Samantha Crawford and Lana Bode, who will be performing for us very shortly. But first, let me talk to you, Charlotte. Charlotte, Song Cycle. Yes, Song Cycle is a collection of songs, I guess, put together usually by theme. And that's how we can understand that.

I just want to always make sure I understand what I'm at least talking about. And you think this may be, tell us what you've written or how it's come together, the first around women in the modern workplace sure um samantha and lana um approached me to ask if i'd be interested to be to write some new songs to go in this program that you explained um because they wanted to put together a project um a concert program as well as a CD that represents a woman's life and all the aspects and richness of that and they recognize that there's a huge gap in that there aren't really any contemporary songs in the kind of classical repertoire that actually talk about women at work. So that's we're talking mainly about, you would say, in the classical space?

Exactly, classical and contemporary in art music, I guess you could call it. And the text for the composition, tell us about that, because you've worked with a writer. Yes, exactly. The writer, Nikki Joukowska, is a writer who I knew before. I had set some of her poetry about seven years ago in a different song cycle. Then I took her existing poetry, but she very much got involved and came to the concert.

And we've had a working relationship since. And then you set her words to music. Is that? Exactly. Yeah. What's that process like? Well, actually, this was incredibly collaborative in this instance, because after I was invited to take didn't quite have the right feeling that we wanted to present in the cycle. We very much want this to be a positive and inspiring thing rather than an angry response to discrimination or to any of the issues. And the themes, mentorship, discrimination and ambition, we're going to hear a part of this or part of it. I will introduce that in just a moment. But tell us a bit about, for instance,

some of the ideas that you're trying to put across with those ideas. Sure. So the whole project had very specific ideas, like you say, about what we wanted in the poetry. So we very closely collaborated with Nikki Joukowska. And the first one, which is about mentorship, really is, yeah, woman on woman mentorship and really support in the workplace and giving a lot. And then letting setting setting the woman free, if you like, to then go off on her journey, ending in there's a crowd in the margins waiting for you. So it's really. So I can understand how that could be hopeful.

If you're going to do one about discrimination, how do you keep the tone positive on that? That is it's a much kind of darker song. It has this constant repetitive piano bass going that kind of represents that endlessness, the momentum pushing through. And what, should we actually hear a bit of this and then perhaps talk again off the back of it? Because I think it's always lovely.

We have two of you in the studio, I should say, Samantha Crawford on soprano, as a soprano, I should say, and Lana Bode on piano. Let's hear some of Crossing Fault Lines. Try as I might, I cannot please her. The clown laughs his tears into my lap. She turns my hand-bitten pages, brings a phrase with her inky pen. That must be blue is always blue. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Who will be first to slake his thirst? Stockroom, tea room, or where they keep the... Thank you very much. There you were listening to Lana Vode on piano,

Samantha Crawford singing there, soprano. Charlotte, this is your composition, of course, in collaboration with a writer. What were we listening to there? That was two extracts. The first one from In the Margins, which is the first song about mentorship. And the second was the extract from the second song, Like a Drum, which is about discrimination. Like you say, a darker twist.

A darker twist, exactly. It's necessary, I guess, writing about these issues. And what are you hoping men and women will take away from this? I hope that by writing this piece and by the whole project Dream Wrists Sing, that it brings light to the fact that there isn't song repertoire about this and and that it will reach um a wider audience and that it will hopefully inspire more to become part of the song

repertoire why previously was a song only written about love and perhaps about womanhood um this is so important so vital yes and because i suppose some a lot of this area will need updating generally but are you worried women will be left out of it and women's experience um yeah uh in a way yeah i think it's um um yeah it needs to be said definitely and where and where can people hear this is it coming at a particular festival or how can people access the music yes tomorrow evening at oxford leader festival um in the jacqueline dupre building um it also a live stream so via the oxford leader website uh one can buy tickets um either for in person or live stream well thank you very much for giving us a flavor today on women's hour it's certainly different and it's certainly people

won't have heard it before because it's so fresh and new but also as you say perhaps it's also been neglected as a terrain for writing about and writing for charlotte bray thank you very much to you messages coming in and speaking proper just off the back of our conversation my conversation with Dame Eileen Atkins Dr Elizabeth Burns listening to your discussion with the fab

Dame Eileen Atkins today inspirational but totally disagree about speaking proper to get on I've kept my Geordie birth voice

and had a successful teaching slash academic career we need social equality it's not social mobility moving on to our point, though, about what happens when perhaps you're very different to your parents and carry on. Another one here, John says, my brother used to say Shakespeare is boss, but in our circles,

he encountered merriment rather than encouragement. Nevertheless, he had over 500 at his funeral with people on the streets outside talking about, I suppose, the different appreciations of different culture and art forms, which has also been a bit of a theme today. And I suppose with Eileen, to your point, Elizabeth, it was a very different time in the world she was trying to get into. But accents and where they get you or where they don't, that's a whole other discussion, which perhaps I look forward to having with you on another day on another Woman's Hour. Thank you for your company. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. That's the moment it hit me. I'm like, oh my gosh,

I think I'm in a cult. I used to think to myself, these people are mad, but until I realised that I'm mad as well. I'm Paris Lees, and this is The Flipside. In each episode, I tell two stories from opposite sides of the coin and use science to ask questions about elements of the human experience that we sometimes take for granted. I know that we're genetically related but in my mind I don't have the feeling

that we are necessarily kin. My dad said, you know that we love you and I am your father, but... Subscribe to The Flipside with me, Paris Lees, on BBC Sounds. somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.