Woman's Hour - Dame Elizabeth Anionwu; Alison Goldsworthy; Linda Edwards; Ministerial reshuffle

Episode Date: September 16, 2021

With a career spanning five decades, Britain’s first sickle cell and thalassemia nurse specialist, Prof Dame Elizabeth Anionwu revolutionised treatment of the disease. As an academic, she became a professor and dean of the nursing school at the University of West London, then established the Mary Seacole Centre for Nursing Practice, to address racial inequalities in the profession. When she retired she campaigned for a statue in honour of the pioneering Jamaican nurse, Mary Seacole. She speaks to Emma about her memoir ‘Dreams From My Mother’ - a story of childhood, race, identity, family, hope and overcoming her upbringing which was marked by racism and abuse.Alison Goldsworthy was deputy chair of the Liberal Democrats Federal Executive while the party was in coalition government. Active in politics for a long time, she left the party in 2014. In 2013, she and others made public sexual harassment allegations against a senior colleague, allegations he has always strongly denied. Alison's book Poles Apart has just been published – she joins Emma to talk about what she learnt from that experience.Nobody likes paying parking fines, but would you go through a 5 year battle to beat one? Linda Edwards from Greater Manchester did just that - all over a £1 parking ticket she couldn’t pay because the machine was broken. She joins Emma to explain why she stuck with it.Yesterday's reshuffle worked out pretty well for women in the Conservative party. Priti Patel stays in post, Liz Truss has been promoted to Foreign Secretary while retaining her Women and Equalities brief, and Nadine Dorries has been promoted to Culture Secretary. Women now occupy half of the great offices of state for the second time - the first being when Theresa May made Amber Rudd Home Secretary in 2016. But does any of that actually matter? Emma is joined to discuss by Sebastian Payne, author of Broken Heartlands: A Journey Through Labour’s Lost England and Whitehall editor for the Financial Times, and Camilla Tominey, Associate Editor at the Telegraph.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. Of course, we'll be covering the reshuffle, which saw the Prime Minister appoint the first female Conservative Foreign Secretary. The first woman to hold the post was, of course, Labour's Margaret Beckett. But this reshuffle of the Cabinet also saw two of the top four offices of state return to being held by women, with Liz Truss as the new Foreign Secretary, replacing Dominic Raab,

and Priti Patel continuing as Home Secretary, with, of course, Boris Johnson as Prime Minister and Rishi Sunak as Chancellor, making up the other two. This was only previously the case once before when Theresa May was Prime Minister and Amber Rudd Home Secretary. More women are expected to be put in post today in lower ministerial roles. But why is the Prime Minister making the bets he's making? And how might it affect you?

All that to come. And we should say, in an unexpected move, in case you're wondering who's still the Minister for Women and Equalities, despite her promotion, Liz Truss will continue to do that alongside her major new role in the Foreign Office. But talking of powerful women and women who won't let it go with a bit between their teeth today, you're going to meet Linda on the programme. Linda Edwards from Greater Manchester, who spent the last five years battling a parking fine over a £1 ticket. Immediately, tell me the truth. Are you rolling your eyes or is she your new hero? Let me have

yours. What have you been able not to let go? All in the name of fairness, no matter how petty, no matter how many times people in your household may have said, just let it go. How dogged have you been and why? What were you fighting? Why did it matter so much that you're prepared to put in hours of work, paperwork, emails, phone calls, rather than do what many of us do, which is give up or pay up or just put it down to experience? However petty, I am here this morning to hear your tales of tenacity. You can text me at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

Social media, I'm at BBC Woman's Hour. Or email me through our website to tell me those tales and the tale of Linda Edwards coming up shortly. But my first guest this morning has changed thousands of people's lives. Celebrated by pop stars and politicians, no mean feat, she revolutionised the NHS treatment of sickle cell disease and became Britain's first sickle cell and thalassemia nurse specialist. Professor Dame Elizabeth Anionwu also established the Mary Seacole Centre for Nursing Practice to address racial inequalities in the profession. Since retiring in 2007, she's received a damehood and successfully campaigned for a statue in honour

of the pioneering Jamaican nurse Mary Seacole. And what a statue it is, if you've seen it. I've sat beneath it and it's quite something. But her childhood was far from straightforward, and her memoir, Dreams from My Mother, is out now. Professor Dame Elizabeth, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you so much for being with us today. And I wondered, actually, before we came to your story and your life's work, nursing and care are on our minds more than ever before. And you will have heard in the news bulletins, and I'm sure be aware that today is the deadline for all those carers in care homes to have their first jab. So they don't lose their job because they have to have the first in time for the second for the deadline for all carers to be vaccinated.

What do you make of the fact that people we're hearing from in that profession, in that industry are saying there are just some people they can't convince? Those individuals are similar to other individuals in general society. When nurses are no different, healthcare support workers are no different. And some will have these strongly held beliefs, for whatever reason, that they do not want to have the vaccination. Are you uncomfortable about compulsory vaccination? You know, it's 50-50. I suppose the human side of me, the liberal side of me, honestly, it should not be compulsory.

However, I'm very anxious for those involved with the care of vulnerable individuals who are putting those at risk. That's my personal view. And I think unless there's medical reasons, I think staff should be vaccinated. Some of the hesitancy has been put down to a lack of trust in authority, a lack of trust in the NHS, and some of that hesitancy has been reported

in ethnic minority communities. And I know, of course, a large part of your work has been convincing people to have faith, to have trust, albeit in different circumstances. How do you do you have any tips around getting people to have faith in authority? Well, I think there's a lot of evidence now in terms of the lack of trust in regards the vaccination amongst certain ethnic minority individuals. And that is to build up the trust to communicate respectfully, not arrogantly, not talking down to people, having an understanding of the history of why certain individuals and groups mistrust, for example, the NHS. There's actually reasons for it. Don't dismiss it.

That's really the few points I would like to make. Yes. And those reasons, of course, you were on the front line of getting people to try and trust doctors and nurses with your work on sickle cell. Well, with others, I think what helped was we were seen as part of the community, particularly as black health professionals. Didn't happen straight away, but we worked in the community with groups, with individuals, answering their questions, not taking it personally when they challenged us as part of what they saw as a racist system at times. Don't take it personally. Listen to it and answer the questions respectfully.

How did you get involved with the work on sickle cell in the first place? I call it three Ps. Professional as a health visitor, because I came across families with the condition in the early 70s and had never been taught anything about it. So that's professional. Personal, I found my father literally at the age of 25 and discovered I had a cousin with the illness. And politically, well, politically, I think that's pretty straightforward. Things weren't, there wasn't sufficient, it wasn't really on the agenda of the NHS.

And the groups of us decided, hold on, it needs to be on it and much higher on the agenda as well. So politically with a small P, as it were, and then sometimes with a bigger P. We should say, if people don't know, sickle cell disease, most people affected are of African or African Caribbean origin, although the sickle cell gene is found in all ethnic groups. When you say that you found your father, it's fair to say you didn't know much about your own Nigerian heritage on your father's side for a long time. You're absolutely right. I was my parents weren't married. They were I was the outcome of their affair at Cambridge University just after the Second World War. Nobody ever mentioned my father. I grew up in a children's home until the age of nine.

My mother never, ever rejected me, by the way. But, you know, nobody spoke about it. And yet I was the only black child in the family. And I couldn't really ask anybody why. Your mother was white, we should say. My mother was white of Irish heritage, yes. And I want to come back to that story in just a moment. But sticking with your work on Sickle cell here, and you talk about it being a gradual process, going to people, convincing them and trying to take their needs seriously in a system that wasn't catering for them. Where did you go? How did you get to people? Did you go to where they were? Did you go to community halls? How did you how did you get your message out there? Well, my background is nursing and health visiting, and it was the health visiting experience that helped me enormously because that involves going into people's homes. You need to be very respectful to for people to allow you into their homes. And I think that was that was a huge advantage in talking to people in their homes about sickle cell, but also being invited by community groups to talk to them about it. And, you know, media as well.

Yeah, it was a range of formats in a way. And, you know, although it was very serious and hard work, it was great fun as well, because to see the delight on people's eyes when they started to understand this condition that impacted their family was fantastic. Because you were taking it seriously in a system that hadn't yet. I think that's the most important point that there were those of us within the NHS that were making it clear that the NHS had to take this condition seriously and that impacted very positively within the community. Was it difficult raising awareness of what was a relatively unknown illness?

It wasn't in terms of the connections with the black media in particular. I'd like to flag up, for example, Alex Paschal, BBC Radio London, his wonderful programme Black Londoners, was very, very influential in disseminating information. And then, you know, there's a sort of bandwagon effect that you're probably more familiar with, Emma, than I am. But I noticed it then. Once one program picks it up, another one gets on the line to you. And so it really took off then. And just going back then to your personal story, if you like, going on in the backdrop here and finding out more about your own Nigerian heritage on your father's side, did that make the work have more meaning in any way or become more powerful to you,

having somebody, especially in your family, that you hadn't known with sickle cell? Yes, first of all, it also made me more confident. I knew who I was. I knew the jigsaw of my identity was complete. And, you know, you do need to be quite confident to go out and talk to people who might be a bit wary about the topic that you're speaking about, which was my experience in some instances. And yes, and to find that I had a cousin with the illness really brought it home to me in a huge way. And just I had an entree also into the Nigerian communities in London as well because of my family connections. Yes. And you mentioned there and you're very clear in the book as well. You know, your mother didn't give you up. This is an important distinction for you to make.

But you were in a children's home. How did that come about? It came about because my... In a convent, I should say, excuse me. Well, it was a children's home run by Catholic nuns in Birmingham. You're quite right, it was a convent. It was because my mother couldn't, didn't have the resources. We have to remember it was 1947.

I'm now 74. So, you know, We have to remember it was 1947. I'm now 74. So, you know, we have to remember the context of that period. It was a huge embarrassment scandal that my mother did become pregnant. And so the Catholic Church, though, really rallied around my family. It wasn't the Philomena type story of neglect. And so I stayed in the children's home until the age of nine, which is when my mother was able to bring me home to her and her stepfather and a half-brother that I had at the time. And it still, though, at times, I imagine, wasn't easy in that convent and was strict and came with its own challenges,

even if it rallied round? Yes. Overall, I was quite happy there. I did Irish dancing, Emma, just picture that. I actually did win medals. Do you still remember it? Are you any good? Oh, I was brilliant at it. Excuse me, I did win medals. Listen, and I'm very proud of my Irish as well as my Nigerian heritage. And it was the Irish culture that influenced me from very early childhood into teenage years.

Yes. So, you know, there were some horrible aspects for those of us that wet the bed. They used to make us wear our urine soaked bed sheet over our little bodies, stand on the chair. Really cruel treatment. So, yes, there were some downsides, I have to say. But overall, overall, it was a happy experience. And you mentioned just before that you being the only black girl was a big part of it, but not spoken about necessarily. And how did you yourself get to grips with your own identity

without much information then? Do you know, I received a photograph of me, age seven, in the children's home. I'd never had a photograph of myself. And it really brought it home to me, this little black child amongst all the white children and the two white nuns. Well, you know, I washed my face 10 times as a child in the convent. Now, I think that just tells you everything. I wanted to be white like my friends, because at times it was brought to my notice negatively that I was different. We all, I think most of us, want to be like our friends.

And also because nobody ever spoke about the fact that I was brown-skinned. I mean, it's really weird. You know your skin colour is brown. Nobody talks about it at all. I can't imagine that, that that just wasn't even part of the conversation for you. But how do you feel with those memories of you washing your face?

It must be such a, I don't know how to even process that. I get asked a lot about my life, basically, how come you've survived and done so well despite the difficult beginnings. But I do give that anecdote about washing my face because I think, and I think I know it brings home so vividly to people, how a child can feel different, other, an outsider. And if it helps, you know, to stop or reduce the number of children who feel like that, I'm very happy to repeat that anecdote.

And share it, and that's the reason why. It was also, though, while you were growing up, I believe you came into contact with someone you didn't realise was a nurse at first, but were and they were they were wonderful and was tell us about that that person that woman and and why that started your your perhaps your thought process on being a nurse yes it was whilst I was in the children's home run by the sisters of Nazareth and one of the nuns I realized was also something called a nurse. I had very bad eczema and I used to dread if I didn't see this particular nun.

I used to call her the white nun. All the nuns were white. They were mainly Irish as well. But she wore a white habit and she would use humor to distract me while she was changing the dressings because it could be extremely painful. And I would burst out laughing because she would use a word like bottom. You know, I was in a Catholic, very Catholic environment. Nuns didn't use words like that.

And, you know, it worked every time. And I thought I wanted to be like this. I wanted to be like this nun. I didn't want to be a nun, Emma, but I was very happy to be a nurse. A nurse nun? Just a nurse. Okay, just to be clear, just to be a nun Emma but I was very happy to be a nurse. A nurse nun? Just a nurse. Okay just to be clear just to be clear and you were I have to say after many rejections eventually accepted as a student nurse at Paddington General Hospital. How did those initial rejections begin perhaps without you realising or maybe you did, to form your view about institutional prejudice?

I didn't realise it was possibly to do with race. It was when the Medical Office of Health, I was then a 16-year-old school nurse assistant in the Midlands, and this guy saw something in me. And I'd never seen him get angry. He was fuming with these schools of nursing. And I thought, oh, interesting, interesting. Something he's not happy about, the fact that they haven't acknowledged my application.

I was, you know, I had 7.0 levels. I was very well qualified. Anyway, so that, yes, was my first experience of discrimination. But I don't think I realised it might be to do with race at that point, though. But you do go on, of course, fast forwarding many years to see how race and difference had been part of the treatment and some prejudice within the NHS itself where you don't want to believe those things are there. That's right. That's right. It was a gradual realisation. And it really came to the fore when I was a health visitor and I saw the lack of even interest in issues like sickle cell anemia. President Obama's memoirs, Dreams from My Father, where he talks about, I think it's a sort of belly full of anger that sort of propelled him into action. That's exactly what happened to me. It's this anger that gave me the energy. That energy could have been used negatively, but thankfully, instinctively, I used it positively positively working with others to develop sickle cell services, for example. I have to say a message has come in from a retired health visitor called Vivian who says, please, could you give a very short definition of sickle cell for listeners?

It's an inherited blood disorder of the red blood cells, which, as you've already acknowledged, is mainly found in tropical areas. And it has to come down from both parents who are usually silent, healthy carriers. And the child starts to get problems after the age of six months usually, and it's severe pains, susceptibility to infections and blockages in various parts of the organ that can lead to something like stroke in young children. Fortunately, life expectation is much, much better, thank goodness. Well, no small part to your work and your colleagues' part to make this as a key part of how we look after people and treat people and recognise as such.

As I mentioned, you've continued campaigning. That statue is just phenomenal of Mary Seacott. Yes, I have to say, I've had my sandwich beneath it a few times uh as i actually had my son in that hospital uh that it's beside at st thomas acknowledge martin jennings the sculptor it's absolutely beautiful if people could look it up or go see it it's an extraordinary one and so you kept campaigning you kept fighting and i suppose when you when you look back at this and you've just been thinking again about your whole story the book's called dreams from my mother I mean I did mention from politicians to pop stars you have been fated now I mean Dua Lipa the pop star singled you out didn't she at the Brit Awards and a name checked

you what was that like well I wasn't actually watching Emma it was a friend that rang me and said congratulations Elizabeth I said, what? Oh, Elizabeth, aren't you watching? For goodness sake, get that television on a watch. It was unbelievable. And I actually did get, I can show you, I got this. I got a mini Brit. You got a mini Brit because they were able to, that was the year they were able to give one to someone else, weren't they? That's right. And they could choose who they gave it to. Now, who would link nursing and the Brits, really? Come on. I was so honoured, hugely honoured, and particularly Dua Lipa,

because I do love her voice. We're good. And, you know, I said to my friends, yes, we're good. We're good nurses. We're good. Look at Dua Lipa, what she's done. It was wonderful. If I may, Queen Elizabeth, I've just had a really great idea. You could do some Irish dancing, perhaps, in the back of one of her next music videos. How about that?

Emma, just text her, please, and suggest that. Oh, if only I had that power. I'll try. We'll try. It's good that you're up for it, though. It's really good that you're up for it. Professor Dame Elizabeth Annie Onwood, thank you so much for talking to us this morning. Thank you.

A real pleasure. And just to say, she was holding up a lovely small statuette of one of the Britta Woods there in silver as we're talking over Zoom. And I can see her in vision, but I'm aware we are on the radio. So I wish to describe these things. Let me tell you about the next woman, because I did say you're going to meet Linda Edwards from Greater Manchester. Nobody likes paying parking fines, but would you go through a five-year battle to beat one? It seems some of you would, because I've been saying,

what have you fought? However small, however petty it could seem to someone else, or however important it seemed to you, what have you gone into battle for? Linda did that all over a £1 parking ticket she couldn't pay because the machine was broken. A message here just come in that I wanted to share here. I've been fighting a speeding fine on a badly signed road. Totally wrong. 18 months so far. Losing the will bring on though, excuse me, losing will bring £650 cost.

This person is not losing the will. Linda, you didn't lose the will either. You've kept going. And some resolution. Linda, let's start, though, with where it began. Good morning. Good morning. How did you get the parking ticket in the first place? Oh, went out.

It was May 2016. Just went out, took mum out for a meal with some friends, met up, and went to the, you know, parked up, went to the machine. There's a small group of people already assembled by the machine. And it was apparent something was wrong. And we established that the machine was was broken. So we had a look around initially to see if there was somewhere else I could park. There wasn't. It was all double yellow lines in and around the area. I had a look around initially to see if there was somewhere else I could park. There wasn't. It was all double yellow lines in and around the area.

So I went back to the board and there it was, the helpline. So we duly contacted the helpline and we told that a man would come out and repair it. So we sort of had a little chat between ourselves. Where were we? we were all in going to the same restaurant which was which was convenient so we said right anybody keep an eye out anybody sees this man will run out get a ticket right all of a sudden there were within about 40 minutes later there was um a furore in the restaurant. People were standing up. Arms were being waved. I thought, what's going on? Oh, gosh, the chap's here.

I rushed out to find this chap putting a ticket on my car. And so I just turned around and said, oh, has the machine been repaired? He said, I don't know. I'm just issuing tickets. I said, well, this is actually broken he said you'll just have to appeal it with the um with the company which i did you did and and and you've had to keep going go on a full explanation with the one pound check it was actually returned with a notice to then pay for it because it was a hundred pound fine reduced to 60 if you paid within 14 days.

But then, you know, they returned the check and said, you've got to pay a hundred pounds. So they completely ignored everything I said and continued to do so for five and a half years. So the machine was broken, five and a half years. I mean, the machine was broken and you got a ticket anyway, told to appeal it, you appeal it with the money that you would have owed if it had been fixed or able to be issuing tickets. And is there any point at this point, just before we carry on with what happened, that you thought, I'll just pay the £100.

I know it's wrong, but I'll just pay it. At that point, no. Because they hadn't even addressed anything in the letter. So it wasn't as though I had an explanation or, you know, well, I'm sorry, blah, blah, blah, or whatever. There was nothing at all, just complete, you know, completely ignored everything I said and continued with this harassment and bombarding me with letters and demands.

And just to be clear, when you say harassment, you're talking about letters and these letters keep coming. Yes. Okay. Sorry, yes. No, no. So that's all right. So you keep going with this. And if you could summarise what has happened over the five and a half years in terms of what has this kept? Is it been a war of letters or have you had to go anywhere and defend yourself? What's happened in that respect?

Well, what happened? There'd be sort of lengthy periods, say six months, where you think, oh, gosh, maybe it's gone away. And inevitably there will be another letter on the mat. It would be just being sent on to another debt collection agency and you know during this time five and a half years life goes on I've had I've had to cope with three bereavements one of which was my mum and um you know we've had the pandemic and it was just so uncalled for and I thought no I'm not I am I'm I am absolutely adamant I was not going to pay. It was their duty to provide a machine, a mechanism for which I could pay.

They didn't. So where was I wrong? You are, to many of our listeners, a woman after their own heart. And you're a complete hero for Keep Doing This because you've also, should say you've been vindicated indeed i was the the um the judge actually when i went into court said she'd never seen a case like this ever really um yeah and um and in fact she was she was sick and tired unquote of this company being brought in front of her. So I'm pleased that, you know, I did actually defend this case the way that I have. And I know a lot of people say, oh, I would have left it. But sometimes you do have to stand up for things that are right,

because if not, then these companies will continue and browbeat and bully people. Well, I should say, I suppose before Excel Parking Services, which ran that car park in Bury New Road in Manchester, there'd been a clear breach of the terms and conditions of parking as no pay and display ticket had been purchased. However, the judge decided the call made by Mrs Edwards to our helpline represented an intention to pay once the machine had been repaired.

I suppose the issue here is also the lack of kind of humanity at times in these moments, isn't it? There you are trying to do the right thing. And some have described it as system says no, right? That's right. And I mean, I don't know how many other ways I could have paid. And it's really, it was just greed. They weren't interested in me. There was no respect shown, no explanation. It was just they wanted the money and that was it.

And you prepared for the court case yourself, I understand. Did all the prep. But I have to say, Emma, my husband is a lawyer. So I was very lucky to have someone who could overlook the process. Was he joined in, you know, the outrage as much as you? Or at times was he like, Linda, just give it a rest. Come on. Did he ever say, come on? We both went through sort of periods where I'd say, shall we just leave it?

And then he'd say, Linda, we've got this far. Right, OK. And he'd say, Linda, I think we should pay it. And I'd say, oh, my. It was like this. So because on the day, Emma, I was very nervous. Were you? Oh, gosh.

Because most people don't get that sort of reckoning or that moment. I'm seeing some of these messages come in. And there's huge amounts of stress. You can laugh about it now, can't you? or that moment. I'm seeing some of these messages come in. And there's huge amounts of stress. You know, we can sort of like, you can laugh about it now, can't you? Because you came out of it with your side of it vindicated, as it were. But the stress kind of leading up to it can be enormous.

And I imagine you were very nervous. I was. And when I, I mean, everybody says, oh, you must have been thrilled at the result, which obviously I was. But it did take a couple of days to sort of get myself together. I came out of the courtroom feeling a little numb because you sort of wind yourself up a little bit. And then I thought, why did I do this?

Why did it? And then I'm glad that I did. I'm glad because I hope it's a message to other companies to please be sympathetic to people. And nobody wants a parking ticket. But please at least provide the facility in order to, you know, to pay at least, please. Can you believe five and a half years of your life has been punctuated with these sorts of battles? Over one pound parking ticket. And actually, the judge actually pointed out,

because there were photographs of the car in the car park, in actual fact, the first hour was free. Oh, wow. I was within that one hour. So it wasn't really... It was quite extraordinary. There you go. It is quite extraordinary.

We've got messages coming in that I will just come to. I've just got to ask, you've been back to that restaurant recently? Have you parked outside lately? Yes. Well, gosh, no. Well, yes, I have. And I've parked quite a distance away.

Linda Edwards, it's good to talk to you. Thank you very much. Maybe a bit more time on your hands now. You're not fighting this particular battle, but I'm sure you're a woman who will keep fighting wherever you find a bit of injustice, however small or large. I just wanted to read this message from Kate.

He says, I spent 10 months fighting a bill from a car company when I returned my PCP car at the end of the contract. As an older single woman, it was clear that the assessor thought he could take me for a ride and when I said his report didn't take account of the motor trade wear and tear standards, he told me that they were obsolete and it was his computer

that made the decision. At that point, I knew I had to challenge both his report and attitude and after 10 months of wrangling, I took it to the ombudsman and won, including getting compensation for my effort. A job well done. Another one here, I'm incredibly tenacious. I'm currently fighting for my autistic. A job well done. Another one here. I'm incredibly tenacious.

I'm currently fighting for my autistic teenager who's experienced discrimination at school. I also recently complained to my energy supplier for a terrible experience when they fitted a new boiler. I kept complaining for two years and I eventually got £1,200 back. I also helped a friend appeal her disability benefit cut and this was restored to her.

I am like a dog with a bone. Justice is really important to me and whatever it is, I'll fight till I get it. I'm autistic and I think that's also partly why I'm like this, says Viv, who's listening in Hampshire. Good morning to you. More about road signs and being tenacious there. And also I've spent 12 months chasing an airline for falsely labelling a bag of mixed nuts, macadamia and other nuts, when there were no macadamia nuts in the bag. After six letters, they sent me a big box of macadamia nuts. And then I realised I really don't like them.

There you go. There you go. Well, you're getting in touch with us about this and your fights and how tenacious you are. You know I love listening and hearing from you here at women's art the floor is open on something else and i wondered if you fancied helping with this or helping someone else and but first of all to you who may have the problem if you have an issue in your life at the moment perhaps you've already turned to family and friends perhaps you can't we wanted to see if we could help maybe it's about a relationship that's coming to an end maybe it's a work problem. Maybe it's something with a friend.

Whatever it is, we do want to help. Are you interested in sharing your problem on air with me? There are lots of wise women and men who listen to this programme, but we know that we can share some wisdom. So we thought if you have an issue, please get in touch with us. If you feel comfortable doing so, we'd love to hear hear from you i'd love to hear what it is and then we would like to match you with someone who can help so tell us 84844 is the number you need to text you will be charged at your standard message rate share your problem on social media at bbc women's hour or email me the issue through

our website you don't have to give your real name and if you don't feel comfortable necessarily coming on air although that would be great if you do come on air we don't have to give your real name. And if you don't feel comfortable necessarily coming on air, although that would be great. If you do come on air, we don't have to give your name or I can just say the problem that you have sent in. But we wanted to try and share

a bit of wisdom and use all of the knowledge that you have, all of our listeners have and put it together to some good use. And I would love to be the sort of conduit of that if I can. So if you'll take that leap of faith with us,

please do. We can have some really interesting discussions if you'll take that leap of faith with us, please do. We can have some really interesting discussions if it's something that you really just don't know where to turn and we will await, the whole team will await your messages and what those problems are. So first off with the problems and then we will put out to try and get some solutions for you. But Alison Goldsworthy, let me tell you about her. She was a senior figure behind the scenes in the Liberal Democrats while the party was in coalition government. The reason you may have heard her name is because back in 2013, she and other women made public sexual harassment allegations against Chris Renard, the then chief executive of the Liberal Democrats, now Lord

Renard. He's always strongly denied these allegations. A police inquiry was dropped due to insufficient evidence. An internal investigation found that it was unlikely that it could be established beyond reasonable doubt that he had intended to act in an indecent and sexually inappropriate way. In a statement at the time through his lawyer, Lord Renard said he may well have encroached upon personal space and apologised for any such intrusion that would have been inadvertent. Well, Alison Goldsworthy, who very rarely speaks publicly since her experience, is here today to talk about what happens after you speak out and how that's informed her research into tribal mentality. She's got a new book out called Polls Apart. And I started by asking her

how life has been since she went public. I'd love to tell a great positive story about how things turned out. You know, the costs to me, emotionally, financially, employment wise, were really much greater than the benefits. And my life probably would have been easier if I just kept quiet. My conscience couldn't cope with it. But I think that would have been easier if I just kept quiet. My conscience couldn't have coped with it. But I think that would have been the easy route. And I can understand why women or why victims, why they don't speak out, because I'm not entirely certain that has changed for people. What do you mean that your life has been difficult?

Could you give us some examples? Yeah, so things like, you know, professionally, I had to change jobs. I had to sell my business. It was when I was single, initially, it was it was really hard dating in this kind of thing. When do you mention to somebody that this is on the first date on the third, I'm really lucky I have a wonderful husband who's been incredibly supportive. But you don't go home and want to talk to him at the end of the day about how was this? It's not, you know, fun, fun dinnertime chat. And and and and even then you know you you look for future jobs down the line and it is as you say what people find when they google you and they probably wonder when did they mention it in the

interview process are they sowing seeds of doubt about your integrity despite the fact you know I like to think I've got bucket loads of it but but I can also see why people would have doubt because of the way the story played out and the ongoing seeds of doubt. I mean, that's the thing there, isn't it? That actually, and I'm sure perhaps you could say more about this with your former colleagues. This may have also been a part of it, that by speaking whatever the circumstance whatever the outcome you can then be seen actually as disloyal yeah that's exactly what happened is you know and it took me into some of the work that I look at now is that the group I was in so the Lib Dem group party they didn't like being attacked and so quite a few people banded together and and defended that group before actually thinking maybe I was completely credible

and what I was saying was reasonable. And they just sort of cast you out and viewed me as a traitor. And that's pretty tricky, to be honest with you. I know. I was going to say, I know before you did decide to speak out, and the first time you did so was on Channel 4 News, you thought twice, if not more, about doing so. Why was that? Was it because you had a fear of some of this stuff or other reasons? Yeah, partly of some of this stuff. You know, I'm a comms professional. I wasn't naive to what might happen, but basically the worst case scenario played out every single time. But also, I you know I wanted to think I had some power in this situation that maybe I could persuade people to change things or I could do it quietly

and the answer was was I couldn't and all it left me feeling like was like a failure for a very very long time you know um I failed to get you know Chris thrown out of the lords I failed in many cases for people to believe me or too many people to believe what had happened. And I failed, if I'm really honest, to bring about much change. And people like to tell me that that's different and that I'm wrong. And I really wish they were correct,

but I just think maybe they aren't. I look at how many other cases and how many other people go through what I went through and I can't help but feel really bad about it actually. You mentioned Chris there whenever you mentioned Chris just to remind our listeners that you are talking about Lord Renard, Chris Renard and of course he's always strongly denied these allegations and I wanted to to say when you say about getting him thrown out you know there are other things that people could say that you did achieve or perhaps people like yourself have achieved.

But it actually sounds like you don't feel that. No, with a bit more distance, I can feel it a bit. But I certainly for a long time, I just thought people would look at me and say, well, she spoke out helping to bring about this change and she didn't bring about the change so she fell um and you know like that continues to be one of my overwhelming feelings about it and I speak to I speak very rarely in public about this case but I speak to a lot of other women who are thinking about speaking out and I tell them that you know that they shouldn't hope for to win or to bring about the change they want but they should just make decisions that mean that they can live with themselves and be proud of themselves in 10 years time because that was a big part of it wasn't it for you when you did eventually talk out

yeah it was so that you could be at peace with you. Yeah, I was really worried about it happening to other people, you know, and it felt like the only route I could go down was to talk to the media and all credit to Kathy Newman, who was superb and thoughtful and and caring in a way that that many people were not actually about me and uh you know that I've never regretted that decision because not doing so I couldn't live with myself but I don't feel it was a success and I think that's a story we don't hear very often that side of things because then the natural question after that is would you tell other people to do it um like I say I tell other people to make decisions that they can live with themselves for and where they can be proud of yourself I am proud of myself for what I did you know and I can feel that um but I'm I I'm just yeah I wouldn't want anyone to think they could go into it plain sailing and that they'd come out unscathed because you you don't and and you talk about the the handling of the allegations by the

press and you choosing not to talk out very often about this since and and part of that is because of how certain journalists and the media have approached you yeah so there was a long time where people chased me for this story and I wouldn't cooperate with it, you know. And if I think some things have changed, maybe that has a little now. So Cathy, as I mentioned, was fantastic. But there were journalists who, you know, would turn up at my mum's house and for context, you know, my mum was very sick at one point.

You know, she had a brain tumour. And so, you know, I don't just care about I'm quite protective about her. Not that she always appreciates it. And someone phoned her in front of me and asked, I just asked her if I asked me if I've been sexually assaulted. And she had no idea about what went on. And then when I, you know, fairly apoplectic, as you might imagine, they phoned me and left a message saying that they were digging through my sexual history and that they were planning to run a story about that. You know, I know that it would be hard to make that in the public interest,

but someone might take the risk. And to go from there. And it was as if I should somehow be ashamed of the fact that, you know, I might have both had sex and enjoyed it once or twice with someone who had not sexually assaulted me. And that definitely kept me quiet and made me worried about speaking out. I think Me Too might have helped some journalists realise that's a really dreadful way to get a story and a really terrible way to bring about change. You mentioned Cathy Newman a couple of times there.

Just to say, of course, for people who do not know, she's one of the presenters of Channel 4 News, where you did take the story and felt that you could. But that culture that you talk about, I think it's also important to explain that even if you're aware of how that may have worked as a comms professional, someone working in communications, if you are somebody who's thinking of going down this route,

that is part of and can be part of the bigger weather, if you like, of what happens to you. Yeah. And like I say, I do quite a lot of behind the scenes support to other people who are speaking out. And that's very often the support I give them is about that and how to handle the press and what to do because no one comes along and acts, you know, as your advisor or says, well, maybe you need to get legal advice on that, or that's really not okay, or someone's printed something that's an error, you know, you need to phone the news desk in the middle of the night and get that taken down and an apology put in for you. And that's your right to expect that. And I guess I was quite lucky when I spoke out that I knew how to navigate that bit of the world. And I had pretty excellent employers who supported me with what I did, even though it

might have been uncomfortable for them, they supported me. And do you have a job now? What is your job now? I know we're going to talk about your recent work, and that's come to a book in terms of its fruition but what is your role now yeah so I decided it was pretty impossible for me to work in in comms and in politics in the UK at least you're not healthy for me so I went out to Stanford and did a mid-career master's there and while I was there set up their first course on political depolarization um there's no doubt that what happened with Chris um allied to that. And I ended up setting up an NGO that works on how to build bridges between people who might disagree, which has become extremely current and wrote a

book which is out this week called Polls Apart, which, you know, really includes tested tangible solutions on how people can bridge divides and maybe not end up as attached to their tribe and unable to see truth as I experienced. I know you've got some very fascinating examples in there of how polarisation, certainly in people's political views, is coming into all parts of life that you might not think. And I want to come to those in a moment. But how do you think polarisation played a part in women speaking out potentially, and has played a part more generally, not to do with necessarily your case, but what you've seen about how that affects people coming forward? Yeah, well, there is definitely something about that, that people are very hesitant to wound their own tribe, you know, and it's a very obvious label. If you join a political group that can be part of it, it's actually a friendship group, sometimes people date or marry or where they work, all of that kind of thing. It's a really

important part of people's identity. And it can be tremendously difficult to feel like you're harming that. And more than that, it can be really difficult for your own tribe to believe that. And there's some great research that's been done now that shows, it's in the States, it shows that Democrats are much less likely to believe sexual assault allegations against Democrats and Republicans are against Republicans. And you could even see that to pick another case in the UK with Charlie Elphick, who was found guilty and actually has been released from prison, I think, today or yesterday of some sexual assault charges and how people from his own side briefed against the victims who were speaking out much more so than people from Labour or from the Lib Dems or SNP who were much more inclined to believe them and that's consistent against against all parties and how people behave so those dynamics do really affect how sexual assault cases can come out. And I worry that in the longer term, you know, what effect might that have in juries if we become increasingly polarised

and they were to see someone who they thought might be a Remainer or a Lever or the opposite side to them coming out and putting an allegation against one of their own track? That could be quite dangerous. Or a mask wearer or a not mask wearer or someone who's jabbed or not jabbed. Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, the legal system's done actually quite a lot to give them their credit in the UK about trying to de-bias juries and think about it in terms of race and gender,

not always successfully, but the will is there. But this is a very nascent area of research. Like, is it something that people should be really concerned about? And evidence from the US, which is not always the same as the UK, is that it's certainly something that we should be thinking very deeply about as as polarisation worsens. And there's another example about how it can affect in a medical setting. You've looked at that. Yeah, so conflicts can extend into when polarisation can become extreme, it can really affect how the advice that doctors will offer to somebody.

So if they think somebody is likely to be a Republican, they'll be less likely to offer them an abortion, which is a politically charged issue. If they think that somebody is a Democrat, then they might be more likely to offer them some stuff around cannabis, which is legal in many US states, as treatment to rectify the symptoms that they may be having. So, like, actually, I don't think your perceived political allegiance to what someone thinks you are should affect the choices that you are offered as a pregnant woman or as someone who might need medical help. And that's when polarisation becomes extremely dangerous. That was Alison Goldsworthy. Lord Renard, we should say, has always strongly denied allegations of sexual harassment. And Alison Goldsworthy's book is called Polls Apart. Well, the newspapers are calling it ruthless, a cull, a day of unexpected political brutality.

But yesterday's cabinet reshuffle has worked out pretty well for women in the Conservative Party. Priti Patel, the Home Secretary, stays in post. Liz Truss has been promoted to Foreign Secretary while retaining her Women and Equalities brief. And Nadine Dorries has been promoted to Culture Secretary. Anne-Marie Trevelyan, who was on yesterday, has moved from Energy Minister to Secretary of State for International Trade. This now means these moves that women now occupy half of the great four offices of state for the second time, the first being when Theresa May made Amber Rudd Home Secretary in 2016.

But does any of that actually matter? I'm joined now by Sebastian Payne, author of the new book Broken Heartlands, a journey through Labour's lost England and Whitehall editor for the Financial Times and Camilla Tomini, associate editor at The Telegraph. Camilla, Sebastian, welcome. Let me start with you, Camilla. What is your take in terms of the women being put into these poll positions?

Is it something to do with the Conservative base or is it just something we shouldn't really make note of? Well, I think the retention of Priti Patel as Home Secretary and the promotion of Liz Truss as Foreign Secretary probably does play to the Conservative heartlands because they're both considered very much dyed-in-the-wool Tories. And it comes at a time where Boris Johnson has been criticised for being un-Conservative because of his health and social care levy that many see as a tax rise and therefore rather more Labour-lite than playing

to the Tory shires. So that's significant. You could argue from a female perspective, however, that, you know, if women inequalities is such an important issue to the Prime Minister, he should give that ministry to a completely separate person, rather than kind of throwing it in with mistrust his lot, when presumably, after having spent the pandemic signing post Brexit trade deals, she's going to be on this massive global charm offensive out of the country for many months a year and therefore perhaps not able to concentrate

particularly hard on that aspect of February. Yes, there's always been that concern. It's been a secondary position as well, regardless of sort of who else has been doing what. I know that Theresa May had it when she was coming through and so did Amber Rudd. She had it at the same time, I believe, as Home Secretary. In terms of, Sebastian, to bring you into this, what do these women speak to or what do they say to those so-called Red Wall voters that I know you've been looking at?

I think the appointment of Nadine Dorries is particularly interesting on that question, Emma, because Nadine Dorries was a surprise appointment. You know, she was 64. She's been in politics quite a long time, a very long serving ally of Boris Johnson. But as Camilla said, she's a very true conservative. She has very traditional conservative views on the role of the family and I think on the role of social issues, on cultural issues. She famously voted against same-sex marriage, but then obviously I think she apologised that for a later date. But I think when the government's looking at which parts of the country it's speaking to, many of those parts of England that voted Tory for the first time that

I visited in my book, they will see their worldview and their social view more represented by Nadine Dorries than some of the more urbane members of the cabinet, say Chancellor Rishi Sunak. And we should mention Liz Truss with that too. You know, she was a comprehensive school girl from Yorkshire who's now risen to become foreign secretary at the age of 46. So as well as an equality thing, there's a social mobility lesson to that too. I believe also taken to Greenham as a child, Camilla. And just coming back to very left-wing roots with her parents what's another biographical detail Camilla are these the best people for the job are they viewed as the best women in the party well I think the cabinet as a whole has been criticized by the backbenchers for

being supine and lacking experience and you know it's a reshuffle in the sense that he's got the same team players he's just merely moved them to different positions, rather than this idea that was kind of being rumoured earlier in the week, that he might promote some people from the backbenches, promote some of the newer MPs that are coming up and rising through the ranks, not least in some of these red wall areas. Also, where are the so-called grey hairs? You know, there has been the likes of talk of David Davis, IDS and others. You know, where are they? Why aren't they adding their wisdom to the pot at a time when the prime minister is under increasing pressure? Not least when we go into a winter period where he's not going to be facing problems in hospitals, as we've heard in some of the press conferences earlier this week, but also economic problems.

You know, inflation's just gone up to another recent historic high. But again, there's this kind of overwhelming sense that even in the absence of Dominic Cummings, there is this kind of central command and control structure at number 10. And at the end of the day, if we use the analogy of it being like a football team where people have been put in different positions, there's still this sense that Boris Johnson wants to remain the only star striker up front. And all just ahead, of course, of the Conservative Party conference, where he can reveal these people, whether they'll be at their most loyal, but there'll be some other disgruntled people out in the cold. Sebastian, you were talking about Nadine Dorries and how she plays in particular. Liz trusts the second woman to hold the office of Foreign Secretary, of course, Margaret Beckett being the first. What do you think she'll bring to the role?

Well, I think, first of all, she's very enthusiastic in the trade sector. She became the most popular member of the government among conservative grassroots, thanks to her very savvy media profile, her love of Instagram. And also, conservatives love people who seem to get things done. And that's really what she's done by signing all these post-Brexit trade deals, although some people will quibble about the economic worth of them with regards to Brexit. But there's no doubt about it. She's been very enthusiastic and shares that boosterism that Boris Johnson also has. She's obviously going to be globetrotting more so than Dominic

Raab has been able to due to the coronavirus pandemic. I think your question about how much time she can devote to the equalities brief is a very interesting one, though, because prime ministers often appoint people to the foreign office. They want to get out of the country and not be doing too much leadership plotting. But I think she has a very particular view on equalities. And she started off life as a Liberal Democrat, as you mentioned, campaigning Green and Common.

But now she's a libertarian conservative. Very different to, say, Nadine Dor. But now she's a libertarian conservative. Very different to say Nadine Dorries, who's known as a social conservative. Liz Truss is intensely relaxed on social issues and how people want to live their lives. And I imagine that, as she described in an interview, she has a very particular view of equality and how to achieve that.

She sees it about empowering individuals, not using the state to address some of the longstanding inequalities. So I think she's in a much more prominent role now. And it's going to be interesting to see how that pans out over the next couple of years when many of the issues about women in parliament, women in politics, women in senior roles will become more prominent and how she tackles the campaign for the state to do more. I mean, Camilla, she's effectively the country's chief feminist, chief women's equality fighter. Is that a role you see for Liz Truss being

something that she will focus on, despite your concerns perhaps about where she'll be in the world? Well, I think certainly. The thing about Liz Truss, to be fair to her, is that she knows what she believes and she isn't afraid to express an opinion. And I think in this slightly sort of wishy-washy era where people are uncertain whether the Prime Minister is a libertarian or not and indeed is a conservative or not when it comes to some of his fiscal policies of late we've then got Liz Truss who sort of like does what it says on the tin I remember we hosted something at the Telegraph before the leadership race where we got a number of different candidates in Rob, Matt Hancock and Truss, James Cleverley and Tr Trust played the best with the Telegraph

stroke Tory graph as we nicknamed audience. And that's because she speaks to conservatives directly. So yes, I think she's an asset. The point Seb makes about keeping her out of the country, though, is a relevant one. You know, we would imagine that somebody like Trust is somebody who would be the one to voice a bit of dissent about some of these recent policies at the Cabinet table. And actually, maybe Boris Johnson doesn't necessarily want to be hearing that in his ear would be the one to voice a bit of dissent about some of these recent policies at the cabinet table and actually maybe Boris Johnson doesn't necessarily want to be hearing that in his ear every week so if she's halfway across the globe that may be no bad thing. Sebastian just a word on Priti Patel of course remaining in post again with your work looking at those red wall voters

is what is the strategy there because there has been obviously concern about her not hitting some of her own targets with what that brief demands. Yes, well, Priti Patel was rumoured to move and she didn't yesterday. And I think there's two reasons for that. First of all, she again is pretty popular and the Tory party always tends to have a figure in the cabinet who is tough on law and order. If you think of the role Norman Tebbit played under Margaret Thatcher's premiership, then Priti Patel does a very similar thing and speaks to a particular part of the country,

which includes many of those towns of northern England that want to see very tough measures on law and order. The thing with Miss Patel, though, is that Boris Johnson is very excised about the small boats crisis we've seen over the summer of those dinghies coming across the channel. And I think that there was talk that he wanted someone to go into that department and get a grip. There was talk Michael Gove might do that. But ultimately, he's decided he wants to keep Priti Patel there. I think he probably likes the idea of having a half-female balance in the top offices of state. He knows she's popular. And we should also forget as well, there were some very serious bullying allegations against Ms. Patel, which she strongly denies with regards to civil servants in her office. And Boris Johnson staked his reputation on keeping her in that role, even though his own independent

advisor advised she had broken the ministerial code. So once you've rallied behind someone, it's very hard to then not stick behind them, which is, I think, why he kept it in that role. But come the next reshuffle, I don't know, we don't want to think about that quite yet. I'd be quite surprised if she's still there after that. Always a political journalist thinking to the next reshuffle. Sebastian Payne, thank you very much. Your book called Broken Heartlands, A Journey Through Labour's Lost England. Camilla Tominey,

Associate Editor at The Telegraph. Thank you to you. Camilla, just a final, very quick word. Do you think the Conservative Party conference will go ahead in person? Concerns about COP26, super spreader events?

I know. Well, I think a lot of the planning has already been put into place. So I can't imagine unless there is some horrific spike in Manchester, that it won't go ahead. Well, more drama to unfold.

Perhaps we'll talk again then. Thank you very much to both of you. Thank you for your company today. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, this is Jane Garvey.

I'm with my broadcasting friend, Fee Glover. Come in, Fee. Oh, thank you, darling, thank you. How are you? All right. We do a podcast together called Fortunately. It has been surprisingly successful and you'd be, honestly, you'd be really quite quite choked with emotion to discover that other people have found us. Some of them have quite enjoyed it. Other people like carping. We welcome all comers. We don't care who you are, where you are, what you do or what you think as long as you're prepared to join with us in well what do we do fee we kind of unravel we unburden we unload what do we do we're a self-help group

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I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.