Woman's Hour - Dame Elizabeth Anionwu; Jennifer Saunders; Former Afghan women's minister; Pretty privilege; Choosing to be child free

Episode Date: September 18, 2021

Britain’s first sickle cell and thalassemia nurse specialist, Prof Dame Elizabeth Anionwu revolutionised treatment of the disease. She then established the Mary Seacole Centre for Nursing Practice, to address racial inequalities in the profession. She discusses her early life in a children's home, her hugely successful career, and being honour by the singer Dua Lipa. Her memoir is called ‘Dreams From My Mother.'The Taliban announced that all women must wear the hijab and will be segregated in universities. We hear from Afghanistan's former Minister for Women's Affairs, Hasina Safi, who is now in the UK having escaped under cover in the final days of the evacuation. Two listeners Rowan and Destiny, explain, why for the sake of the planet, they are saying no to having children now.Pretty Privilege - what is it and should it be used? The model Marike Wessels, and Caterina Gentili from the Centre for Appearance Research discuss.Comedian, actor, writer, Jennifer Saunders talks facial hair, menopause, and playing the medium Madame Arcati in a threatre production of Noel Coward’s comedy Blithe Spirit. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. In a moment, the Jennifer Saunders. Also, she revolutionised NHS treatment of sickle cell disease and the singer Dua Lipa honoured her at the Brits with a mini Brit, Professor Dame Elizabeth Annie Onwu. Who would link nursing and the Brits, really? Come on. I was so honoured, hugely honoured, and particularly Dua Lipa Professor Dame Elizabeth Annie Onwu. Who would link nursing and the Brits, really? Come on.

I was so honoured, hugely honoured, and particularly Dua Lipa, because I do love her voice. We're good. And, you know, I said to my friends, yes, we're good. We're good nurses. We're good. Look at Dua Lipa, what she's done. It was wonderful. Also on the show, the former Women's Affairs Minister of Afghanistan, Hasina Safi, who escaped undercover in the final days of the evacuation and is now in the UK. Two Woman's Hour listeners tell us why at the moment

they've decided not to have children. And how pretty do you feel? And do you recognise how the way you look works to your advantage? We discuss the privilege of pretty. Now, you may know her as Adina from Ad Fab, Caroline from Jam and Jerusalem or one half of the eponymous French and Saunders but Jennifer Saunders is back treading the boards in the West End in a new incarnation as Madame Akati, a medium who presides over a seance in the Noel Coward comedy classic Blythe Spirit. She's of the great sort of tradition of English eccentric women.

And I think when Coward wrote it in the 40s, he must remember that there'd been the First World War and a lot of people's families' sons had died and people hadn't got closure. And I think a lot of people were left with just a letter saying, your son has died. And they wanted to, they wanted something, you know. And I think there were a lot of mediums and a lot of people having

silences around that time. And so it was a sort of rich, rich comedy ground for Noel Coward. And he makes the most of it. It's a glorious part. And it's a part I love mainly because it has, you can't have any vanity. And those are the best parts. You wear the worst dresses and the terrible shoes.

And I try and make my eyebrows just almost reach my hairline as I pencil them on every night. And the rest of the cast gasp as they see me because sometimes they do do go too far do you believe in the supernatural i don't know really i i think when i was younger i used to imagine i saw all sorts of things and you you know you sensed atmospheres and um possibly saw things now i i just honestly haven't got the time i you know when you walk home you go, oh gosh please don't let there be anything because I just haven't got the time. I haven't got the time to be frightened anymore. I've got to brush my eyebrows down from this experience

You've got beautiful eyebrows I'm talking as if I'm you, poofing them down. Really happy you've brought up facial hair actually an interview I was reading with you in preparation for our chat today Jennifer was when you talked about being a grandma and one of your grandchildren asked if you were growing a beard. Yes, he caught me in a bad light.

There was some light coming into a window and it suddenly highlighted quite a lot of facial hair. And he just looked at me and said, and they called me Jam Jar. And he said, Jam Jar, are you growing a beard and i thought oh no but you see that's that that's the laser sharp eyesight of a tiny person we don't have anymore if i took my glasses off i i can barely see you know i'm just a beautiful glowing face if i put my glasses on it's horrifying it's horrifying well it's just it's just good to talk about these things. Let it hang out. Talking of hanging out, you and Dawn French,

she was on the programme not long ago, making us all smile as well. And you've gone into podcasting now together. Yes, we have. We've been forced into it. Right. We were forced in by lockdown. And we found we rather enjoyed it.

We were unaware of really what it was before. But during lockdown and they said well you could podcast and we thought well let's have a go but the rumors about you writing a new sitcom together though true not true who knows you say these things there was a good idea but then you wish someone else would make it and you could just watch it um because we have to actually do something and that's what we find we're very good at talking at each other. And that's why we do Titting About, because it's basically just yakking in a way that we spend a lot of our time doing.

Yeah, well, you know, you need to get on with it, Jennifer. Come on now. We've talked about it publicly. We did talk about it. We said, well, it would have to be something set near our homes where we both wear loose trousers and flat shoes, because that would

encourage us that would encourage us to get it done well I love what you've you've said before about female friendship and actually about you and Dawn there was one particular gig you were working on you said you were able to drive there and drive back together for an hour or so and you sometimes repeated the same conversations you'd enjoyed so much lovely that was doing Death on the Nile, the Kenneth Branagh film, that might never come out. We haven't seen it yet. And we were so glad to be in a huge movie.

And, of course, it hasn't seen the light of day yet. But we used to get in a van together and drive for an hour to the set and just talk. I mean, solidly talk all the way. And sometimes you do have those conversations, and it can be a person or an event and you say oh can we just and you start talking about it again and it's even more enjoyable the second time round just lovely a female friendship has been a massive part of your your life hasn't it I know you've got three daughters as well and now grandma but but sometimes I know you felt frustrated about how it's represented in the media. Yeah. I mean, less so now because

there's so many brilliant female writers. You've got Sharon Horgan, Aisling Bea, and you've got Motherland and you've got some brilliant female writers. And I think women write much better for women generally, because before women were always seen to be competitive somehow. And you think, I don't think I have that in my life. I don't think I'm competitive with my my girlfriends. You know, you tend to be incredibly supportive. And a lot of women spend a lot of their time with other women, you know, and I didn't think that was particularly well represented I think the other the other side of what I was thinking about before speaking to you today is when I was when I was younger I was so excited to see you and Dawn French on the television simply because you were two women talking about things that hadn't seen anyone else talk about necessarily and just in

terms of representation I know that's changed again um And I was re-watching actually just before I turned the mic, came on and the mic went live. I was re-watching that scene from The Young Ones where you're sat there and Rick Mayall, the much-loved, much-missed Rick Mayall opens your handbag and finds a tampon and uses it to stir a drink next to him. Just talking about women writing for women and sort of what you were doing and breaking new ground.

Did you know how much new ground you were breaking some of the time? I recognise that wasn't necessarily your writing there, but you were obviously writing throughout this time. I think we probably did because we knew when we mentioned certain things, you know, if we said the word clitoris or if we said your period or all that sort of stuff, we knew that there was deep intake of breath from male executives and things and around. But we just thought, well, just do it. Just do it. Because, I mean, and until someone stopped stopped us we just went on saying it and doing it I mean the one thing I realized we never knew about was the menopause because we used to say it quite a lot and imagined it was something to do with menstruation but had no idea because nobody

talked about it then you know I remember even when I did abfab and I was in my late 30s when I started abfab and Dean was 40 and she started talking about menopause because I heard it was something women talked about. But I honestly didn't really know what it was. When did you find out? When I had it? No. I was going to say, when it came and smacked you in the face. The thing probably in that time, I mean, I got a book on it to sort of look, oh, that's what menopause is, I see. And then forgot about it after I'd written the part.

But I then, I do remember thinking as it sort of cre oh that's what menopause is I see and then forgot about it when I after I'd written the part but um I then I do remember thinking as it sort of crept up as you get older um people sort of test you for osteoporosis and things like that and they oh you're in the foothills was always the comment and I thought the foothills of what what are the foothills of what is this mountain approaching and um and then because I had breast cancer I was sort of plunged into the menopause very quickly and I suddenly realized it's it nobody talks about the mental health really around it either you know and and everything you can go through and everything you do to counter it it was um it was a revelation well well maybe that's the sitcom can you do a sitcom do you think on menopause just call it menopause yes there's nothing wrong with that that's quite

a good that's quite good isn't it loose trousers yeah no hormones there we go there you go and you heard it here first when it goes on to win many BAFTAs. It was inspired by a conversation on Woman's Hour. The legend, that is, Jennifer Saunders. And Blythe Spirit is on at the Harold Pinter Theatre in London until November the 6th. Neil tweets, as a title for a sitcom about the menopause, what about menopause behaving badly? Hashtag, I'll get my coat. Yeah, you better have, Neil. And if you would like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the show,

you can email us via our website or get in touch on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, in a further rollback of women's rights in Afghanistan, this week the Taliban have announced that all women must wear hijabs and be segregated in universities. This follows no women representatives in Afghanistan's cabinet. The announcement came after a demonstration by women supportive of the Taliban at a Kabul university on Sunday. Hundreds of women, many wearing black niqabs and carrying Taliban flags, listened to speeches that praised the regime.

However, many other Afghan women are fighting back online with a social media campaign called Do Not Touch My Clothes, where they're sharing pictures of colourful traditional dress. Well, this week, Emma spoke to the former Minister for Women's Affairs, Haseena Safi, who's now with her family in a hotel in the UK, having escaped undercover in the final days of the evacuation. I really tried to stay and be patient because I came out of Kabul after 10 days of the government collapse and Taliban. But it was not possible because there was a lot of horror. There was a lot of uncertainty. There was a lot of insecurity. So that was why I decided to leave. And I'm really thankful for all my international friends, UK government, British friends, women for the solidarity, coordination and support

that today I am talking to you all. How did you leave? What was that like for you and your family? It was, to be honest, it was very, very, very difficult because I had been a refugee when I was five years old. So I never thought that I would refuge again. I came back to my country after 25 years with my two daughters. And the reason that I stayed back for 10 years after the collapse of the government was that I thought there would be an opportunity that I would stay. But I saw that day by day, it was getting uncertain, unsecure, and no guarantees. So it was one of the most difficult decisions that I had to take to be a refugee again. I can't even imagine. And the actual getting out, was that difficult or how was that for you?

Because we saw scenes with the Taliban surrounding the airport. It was a horror. It was a horror. I had almost support every day after 15 August till 25 August that I left from my international friends. Even the horror rate was that high that even I could not go down the block. So when we decided it was around 4 or three in the afternoon and we left home in the evening when family members even were lashed, so we decided not to leave. But then through the coordination of other friends who had been at the same situation, they encouraged and they said there is another way from where we can go. And then there was a canal through which we passed. That was the canal that the day we passed, the day after that, it was that horrific attack where 170 people lost their lives. So it was one of the horrifying, the most horrifying nightmare I had observed, I had seen

in my 46 years of life. I'm so sorry. How have you been processing that? How are you, are you even thinking about that at the moment? Well, I cannot stop thinking about it because there are many, many, many, many there back home. And at the first, every night I would be dreaming for four or five times whenever I would close my eyes. So I never wanted to sleep. I just wanted to make myself busy with writing or reading or something, because it is even something which I cannot imagine. Like it was when you see on the top of your head like guns, fire, and you really don't know what will happen after 10 seconds.

So it's really horrifying, uncertainty and insecurity. And you also said that a couple of your family members were lashed. What does that mean? Because when people were standing outside the gate, so it was a group of people, and then they were lashing, Taliban were lashing them too. So they were horrifying them. That is why when I saw that they were lashed twice, then I decided that it doesn't matter. Even if we die, we will have to leave that place. So there were many people. It's very difficult when you say it, but it's horrific when you are in that situation and when you feel it. Because on the top of your head, at the bottom of your feet, you see gun, you see fire. So it's very very very difficult.

Why did you come to the UK? Was that a particular decision or was that where you could get to? As I said that most of the international partners attempted me from day one and I did not decide to leave. I had been in communication with my British friends because we had been working from many years before me being the minister. We were working on Security Council Resolution 1325. And UK had, like other international partners, while they were developing NAB 1325, they had put apart for the Afghan women, in Afghanistan women. So basically, to be honest, the coordination of that brought me here because my British friends were very much in contact with me.

Each second, each hour, they would message me, how are you, are you safe, why are you not planning to leave, what is the situation, so that is the reason and the other thing is based on the work experience that I had with my partners here, the understanding, so that is why I decided to come here. How do you feel about trying to build a life here in Britain? Well, for the first, to be honest, at the first week, it was just I wanted to make myself accept that I was alive. I could breathe. I could think. I was trying to collect myself back, and presently I have overcome it with the loneliness, with the cries, with the griefs that I had, with the yellings that I had inside

my room. I tried to collect, and definitely life has been a challenge for women around the world, but specifically for Afghan women and those women who had been in conflict like us. No one is going to plan for us. So it is us who have to plan for ourselves. And it is us who have to stand back and fight for what we are aiming as women, as Afghan women to plan for the future. And how, I was going to say, I mean, perhaps that question is, you know, I recognise it's far too early for you at this stage as you get to grips with your reality at the moment. But as the former women's minister, how do you feel about the women and girls and their lives,

those who are still there? I mean, some of whom obviously want very much to be there, but not under necessarily the rule that they've got. I'm in contact with all of them. First of all, there is a big threat for most of them who have been very vocal and who have been in public. Protection-wise, they are insecure. And the second thing is definitely there is a big gap by abolishing the women ministry, because it had been an address, not only that, but a connection with the NGOs. As a women activist, I have worked from grassroots to the cabinet member. It will be a very, very big gap by abolishing the women ministry, the address of women.

There is a lot of insecurity, there is a lot of uncertainty, and there is a lot of hopelessness within the women at this present situation. When you hear the latest around all women must wear hijab, will be segregated in universities, that there are no women around that cabinet table that you sat at as the minister for women. How does that make you feel? Very disappointing, very unrealistic, and very, very challenging for those who still want to work because hijab has a specific definition for everyone. Hijab in the specific definition for everyone. Hijab in the relation with God is your personal relation.

It's up to you how you connect, how you define, how you act. So that is why the hijab which we are observing in the last three days has never been a part of Afghanistan Afghan women culture. So this is a total unacceptable agenda or issue for the women of Afghanistan. I have been a minister, but before that I have traveled to every district and province and villages of Afghanistan. You will see women wearing big chadars the way I am wearing now, but in the villages no one wears hijab. No one wears even burqas. They are very open with each other.

They work in the agriculture. They have nurseries. They participate. They contribute. So this is a total disappointment. This is a total concrete obstacle for those women who still take the courage to move forward. Afghanistan's former Minister for Women's Affairs, Hasina Safi, speaking to Emma. Now, are you familiar with the phrase pretty privilege? Well, a new trend on TikTok is seeing young women sharing stories about when they first realised good looks can get you far in life.

From relationships to work and even within the legal system, the association between beauty and talent, social success and health is a real thing. So how much of a role do we all play in the power of pretty privilege? And who defines what we see as pretty? Well, Marika Vessels is a model living in London and Katrina Gentile is Research Fellow at the Centre for Appearance Research in Bristol. I started by asking Katrina what we mean by pretty privilege. Having pretty privilege means embodying a certain set of physical characteristics that allow you to not be discriminated because of your appearance. This means looking thin, for example, looking white, looking transgender, looking heterosexual,

looking muscular, looking young is a huge one, so on and so forth. I've got no chance then. Thin, white, muscular, young. What evidence or research is there into how this is actually a real thing? So we know that kids as young as four are invested in appearance standards. So this is quite shocking, but it brings to light how much our society is based on appearance and looks. Because we know that from a report from Mental Health Foundation from 2019, that 79% of kids between 11 and 16 think that their look is very important, and 52% of them often worry about their look. This tells us that everybody knows deep down that their appearance is going to shape the way they navigate society. And then looking at like specific

examples, for example, in the workplace, we got data from even back to 2008 about the fact that the way a candidate presents themselves in an interview and whether they meet those society standards will highly impact their success into getting a job. And this is particularly true for women. And then something really interesting is that some mixed method studies found that although women in the workplace are highly encouraged to meet the society standards of so-called beauty, they also receive objectifying comments once they meet those standards. So since pretty privilege comes from oppression, you can't really win. It's not a game that can be won. Yeah. And, you know, some of the messages that we're getting kind of basically are examples of

that. Someone has said pretty privilege has worked in both ways in my experience and is dependent on context and those perceiving and in control of the advantage. Good looks are immediately disarming and do affect response. But I found that despite empathy and intelligence, good looks often engender a negative response for no other reason than a form of power play. I'm going to bring in Marika. Marika, you're a model. Much of your career has been defined by your looks. How much do you think about pretty privilege?

Do you wake up in the morning and think, gosh, I'm beautiful? You are beautiful. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're both beautiful. i just say yes i agree um i think pretty privilege in my industry is so significant because it plays such a major part of one's role within the industry where you constantly get judged on the way that you appear um i think there's such a big factor placed on how you are perceived from only an outer perspective. And I think it's so important that who you are as a person inside

should be known as well. And it shouldn't just be based on the way that you look. Yes, it's a very important part of our job. And it's my responsibility to look good to be healthy and give that image out um within the you know in the market um so yes i think it's it's very important and what i'm interested in and what it's like for you outside of work just like going about your business i was having this conversation with mates the other day actually i've got an absolute stunner of a friend. She's Danish. There you go. That says it all.

And I just looked at her and I just thought, what is it like? What must it be like navigating life looking like you? Just doors open, heads turn when she walks into the room. Do you notice it? Definitely. I definitely notice it, but I'd never take advantage of it. I think it becomes something that's almost normal, and it has been for quite a few years.

When I was really young and when I started within the industry, you don't necessarily notice it because you're very insecure, and the constant judgment that you get as well of people, like, you know, judging you on how you look, it actually does the opposite, where you then become insecure, and then you don't necessarily notice the positive effects where people actually appreciate the way that you look, it actually does the opposite, where you then become insecure and then you don't necessarily notice the positive effects where people actually appreciate the way that you look. So now on my daily life, I'm totally aware of it, yes,

but I just take it very easy. This is really playing out on social media though, isn't it? Yes. Yes. I mean, you obviously, Marika, you know because social media is where you it yes um yes uh katherine i mean you obviously marika you know because social media is where you're kind of getting lots of attention and katarina this is um this is where women young is generally women men as well is it the same for men you tell me is it the same for men that it's playing out as an advantage on social media and how is it working

on social media it's a very interesting point so from a research point of view, we have way more data on women rather than on men when it comes to appearance and body image research. However, we know that, for example, again, in cases where someone is accused of violence against women, for example, good looks and i you know and i say good looks to to to mean like uh meeting certain certain societal standards uh do lead to an easier forgiveness because we are conditioned to think that looking good uh is being good like in in ancient greece there was an expression that said which means a beautiful and. And so this association in our mind is really, really strong. And this definitely play a role for all genders. But of course, when we look at appearance and pretty privilege, it's important to have an intersectional lens and judge and evaluate the appearance discrimination from this point of view from a social justice point

of view and we know that women are way more affected by objectification and this is true you know this since like 1996 even from the 70s is an important theory called body objectification theory that literally lays out all these mechanisms of how women's body are objectified how this objectification gets internalized. And so then we become invested in appearance and we think that appearance is the best card that we hold. And that in a way is true because we get compliments or criticism about our looks at all times as women.

But again, privilege is temporary. And it starts from such a young age doesn't it you're as a little girl you exactly you you know whether you feel as pretty as the other girl in class exactly and research confirms that you know whether you fit in for your looks or not and you know that that is going to be very important in that in the environment you're in but it's important to distinguish pretty privilege from body image issues and I think this is something that is often um not understood especially you know in social media and I think this is also why pretty privilege is such a hot topic and can upset many people who might have pretty privilege but also feel very insecure about their bodies um is using your

pretty privilege Marike for to your own advantage a bad? Do you think it's anti-feminist? No, I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I think if you are very confident in yourself and you have good looks, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. And you can still be a feminist using your advantage because you're beautiful. Well, yes. I guess, you know, there's always going to be many different opinions coming from all different, you know, types of people.

And I think the way that one responds to that is actually also what's really important. I mean, something that jumped out to me instantly, Katrina, is when you said what we define as pretty, thin, cis, muscular, young, white. You know, that instantly is alarm bells. And I'm sure lots of women of colour listening know that, you know, we've known it, we all know it. And that already your race will put you on a different level to everybody else. Yeah, exactly. And that's a serious concern. And we're talking about this as kind of something quite lighthearted, but this is serious stuff. It is definitely serious stuff. Pre privilege is linked to appearance-based discrimination,

and appearance-based discrimination encompasses so many identities. And research confirms that. Before, we briefly mentioned how appearance and meeting those societal beauty standards can bring advantage to the workplace, to being hired. Well, data from 2017 shows that the appearance privilege does intersect with race. And in fact, when looking at unemployed women and men living in larger bodies, when looking at the people who had experienced eight to seven times higher discrimination in the workplace, those were people who also received racial discrimination. So this is a bit of a complex sentence to say that the data confirms that these things overlap and they go together.

And lots of you got in touch to comment on this subject of pretty privilege. Here, an anonymous email says, I've always said that if I was to be born again, being pretty would be my first wish. I've seen how men react to a pretty face and I've always wanted to be that woman, shallow but true. Claudia says, I believe that this is a sensitive subject which affects all women and how they are judged.

Doors are opened for pretty women undoubtedly, but they're opened by men and not necessarily the doors that women would choose to have opening. Good looks, whilst a gift in this visually obsessed world, can be a barrier. Angela Merkel didn't give too much priority to her fashion sense, hair or makeup, for a reason. And if you'd like to partake and tell us what you think,

then do get in touch with the programme, email us or contact us via social media. Now, she's changed thousands of people's lives. Celebrated by pop stars and politicians, which is no mean feat, she revolutionised NHS treatments of sickle cell disease and became Britain's first sickle cell and thalassemia nurse specialist. Professor Dame Elizabeth Anionwu also established the Mary Seacole Centre for Nursing Practice to address racial inequalities in the profession. Since retiring in 2007, she's received a damehood and successfully

campaigned for a statue in honour of the pioneering Jamaican nurse Mary Seacole. But her childhood was far from straightforward, and her memoir Dreams from My Mother is out now. Yesterday was the deadline for all those carers in care homes to have their first jab so they don't lose their job. Emma began by asking, was she comfortable with compulsory vaccinations? I suppose the human side of me, the liberal side of me, honestly, it should not be compulsory. However, I'm very anxious for those involved with the care

of vulnerable individuals who are putting those at risk. That's my personal view. And I think unless there's medical reasons, I think staff should should be vaccinated. Some of the hesitancy has been put down to a lack of trust in authority, a lack of trust in the NHS. And some of that hesitancy has been reported in ethnic minority communities. And I know, of course, a large part of your work has been convincing people to have faith, to have trust, albeit in different circumstances. Do you have any tips around getting people to have faith in authority? a lot of evidence now in terms of the lack of trust in regards the vaccination amongst certain ethnic minority individuals. And that is to build up the trust to communicate respectfully, not arrogantly, not talking down to people, having an understanding of the history of why certain

individuals and groups mistrust, for example, the NHS, there's actually reasons for it. Don't dismiss it. That's really the few points I would like to make. Yes. And those reasons, of course, you were on the front line of getting people to try and trust doctors and nurses with your work on sickle cell. Well, with others, I think what helped was we were seen as part of the community, particularly as black health professionals. It didn't happen straight away, but we worked in the community with groups, with individuals,

answering their questions, not taking it personally when they challenged us as part of what they saw as a racist system at times. Don't take it personally. Listen to it and answer the questions respectfully. How did you get involved with the work on sickle cell in the first place? I call it three Ps. Professional as a health visitor, because I came across families with the condition in the early 70s and had never been taught anything about it. So that's professional. Personal, I found my father literally at the age of 25

and discovered I had a cousin with the illness. And politically, well, politically, I think that's pretty straightforward. It wasn't really on the agenda of the NHS. And the groups of us decided, hold on, it needs to be on it and much higher on the agenda as well. We should say, if people don't know, sickle cell disease, most people affected are of African or African Caribbean origin, although the sickle cell gene is found in all ethnic groups. When you say that you found your father, it's fair to say you didn't know much about your own Nigerian

heritage on your father's side for a long time. You're absolutely right. My parents weren't married. I was the outcome of their affair at Cambridge University just after the Second World War. Nobody ever mentioned my father. I grew up in a children's home until the age of nine. My mother never, ever rejected me, by the way. But nobody spoke about it. And yet I was the only black child in the family. And I couldn't really ask anybody why. Your mother was white, we should say. My mother was white of Irish heritage, yes. And I want to come back to that story in just a moment.

But sticking with your work on sickle cell here and you talk about it being a gradual process, going to people, convincing them and trying to take their needs seriously in a system that wasn't catering for them. Where did you go? How did you get to people? Did you go to where they were? Did you go to community halls? How did you how did you get your message out there? Well, my background is nursing and health visiting, and it was the health visiting experience that helped me enormously because that involves going into people's homes. You need to be very respectful to for people to allow you into their homes. And I think that was that was a huge advantage in talking to people in their homes about sickle cell, but also going into being invited by community groups to talk to them about it. And you know, media as well. And you know, although it's very serious and hard work, it was great fun as well.

Because to see the delight on people's eyes when they started to understand this condition that impacted their family was fantastic. Because you were taking it seriously in a system that hadn't yet. That's the most important point, that there were those of us within the NHS that were making it clear that the NHS had to take this condition seriously. And that impacted very positively within the community. And just going back then to your personal story, if you like, going on in the backdrop here and finding out more about your own Nigerian heritage on your father's side. Did that make the work have more meaning in any way or become more powerful to you, having somebody, especially in your family, that you hadn't known with sickle cell?

Yes, first of all, it also made me more confident. I knew who I was. I knew the jigsaw of my identity was complete. And you mention there, and you're very clear in the book as well, your mother didn't give you up. This is an important distinction for you to make. But you were in a children's home. How did that come about? It came about because my... In a convent, I should say, excuse me. Well, it was a children's home run by Catholic nuns in Birmingham. You're quite right. It was a convent. It was because my mother didn't have the resources. We have to remember it was

1947. I'm now 74. So, you know, we have to remember the context of that period. It was a huge embarrassment scandal that my mother did become pregnant. And so the Catholic Church, though, really rallied around my family. It wasn't the Philomena type story of neglect. And so I stayed in the children's home until the age of nine, which is when my mother was able to bring me home to her and her stepfather and a half brother that I had at the time. And it still, though, at times, I imagine, wasn't easy in that convent and was strict and came with its own challenges, even if it rallied round.

Yes. Overall, I was quite happy there. I did Irish dancing, Emma. Just picture that. I actually did win medals. Do you still remember it? Are you any good? Oh, I was brilliant at it. Excuse me, I did win medals. Listen, and I'm very proud of my Irish as well as my Nigerian heritage. There were some horrible aspects for those of us that wet the bed they used to make us um wear our urine soaked bed sheet over our little bodies stand on

the chair really cruel treatment so yes there were some downsides I have to say but overall it it was a happy experience and you mentioned just before um you being the only black girl was a big part of it, but not spoken of myself. And it really brought it home to me, this little black child amongst all the white children and the two white nuns. Well, you know, I washed my face 10 times as a child in the convent. Now, I think that just tells you everything. I wanted to be white like my friends, because at times it was brought to my notice negatively that I was different. We all, I think most of us want to be like our friends because at times it was brought to my notice negatively uh that that I was different we all I think most of us want to be like our friends and uh and also because nobody ever spoke about the fact that I was brown-skinned I mean it's really weird you know your skin color is brown

nobody talks about it at all I say I can't imagine that that that just wasn't even part of the conversation for you. But how do you feel with those memories of you washing your face? It must be such a, I don't know how to even process that. I think I know it brings home so vividly to people how a child can feel different, other, an outsider. And if it helps to stop or reduce the number of children who feel like that, I'm very happy to repeat that anecdote. It was also, though, while you were growing up that I believe you came into contact with someone you didn't realise was a nurse at first, but they were and they were wonderful. And tell us about that person, that woman, and why that started your perhaps your thought process on being a nurse.

Yes, it was whilst I was in the children's home run by the Sisters of Nazareth. And one of the nuns I realised was also something called a nurse. I had very bad eczema and I used to dread if I didn't see this particular nun. I used to call her the white nun. All the nuns were white. They were mainly Irish as well. But she wore a white habit and she would use humour to distract me while she was changing the dressings because it could be extremely painful. And I would burst out laughing because

she would use a word like bottom. I was in a Catholic, very Catholic environment. Nuns didn't use words like that. And, you know, it worked every time. And I thought I wanted to be like this nun. I didn't want to be a nun, Emma, but I was very happy to be a nurse. A nurse nun. Just a nurse. Okay, just to be clear, just to be clear. And you were, I have to say,

after many rejections, eventually accepted as a student nurse at Paddington General Hospital. How did those initial rejections begin, perhaps without you realising, or maybe you did realise, to form your view about institutional prejudice? I didn't realise it was possibly to do with race. It was when the Medical Office of Health, I was then 16-year-old school nurse assistant in the Midlands,

and this guy saw something in me. And I'd never seen him get angry. He was fuming with these schools of nursing. And I thought, oh, interesting, interesting. He's not happy about the fact that they haven't acknowledged my application. I was, you know, I had 7.0 levels. I was very well qualified. Anyway, so that, yes, was my first experience of discrimination. But I don't think I realised it might be to do with race at that point, though. But you do go on, of course, fast forwarding many years to see how race and difference had been part of the treatment and some prejudice within the NHS itself, where you don't want to

believe those things are there. That's right. It was a gradual realisation. And it really came to the fore when I was a health visitor and I saw the lack of even interest in issues like sickle cell anemia. And I got very angry about it. And it was only actually when I read President Obama's memoirs, Dreams from My Father, where he talks about, I think it's a sort of belly full of anger that sort of propelled him into action. That's exactly what happened to me. It's this anger that gave me the energy.

That energy could have been used negatively, but thankfully, instinctively, I used it positively, working with others to develop sickle cell services, for example. I did mention from politicians to pop stars, you have been feted now. I mean, Dua Lipa, the pop star, singled you out, didn't she, at the Brit Awards and name checked you. What was that like? Well, I wasn't actually watching, Emma. It was a friend that rang me and said, congratulations, Elizabeth. I said, what? Oh, Elizabeth, aren't actually watching, Emma. It was a friend that rang me and said, congratulations, Elizabeth. I said, what? Oh, Elizabeth, aren't you watching?

For goodness sake, get that television on and watch. It was unbelievable. And I actually got a mini Brit. You got a mini Brit because that was the year they were able to give one to someone else, weren't they? That's right. And they could choose who they gave it to. Now, who would link nursing and the Brits, really?

Come on. I was so honoured, hugely honoured, and particularly Dua Lipa, because I do love her voice. We're good. And, you know, I said to my friends, yes, we're good. We're good nurses. We're good. Look of you got in touch about this interview, such as Tina, who tweeted, Elizabeth is an exceptional woman suffering early childhood hardship and racism, challenging these experiences to change injustice in our society. Modest and so generous of spirit. Such an inspiration. Now, we've had a number of you get in touch recently asking us to discuss the active choices women, mostly in their 20s and 30s, make not to have children. There's also a global report out this week which shows most young people are worried about climate change and four in 10 are so anxious they're hesitant about having children. Here's a flavour of what you've already been saying about considering being child free. Aynakan on Instagram said, I'm 37 and undecided. The feeling of underlying disappointment from my family is unreal.

Anna emailed in to say, There are several factors. Not only is it the single most environmentally damaging act that you can perpetrate as an individual. But the way that nature is being destroyed by humanity and the vast devastation that is coming with climate change is something I would not inflict on anyone. Thank you for talking about this sensitive and important topic, which is so overlooked. We wanted to hear more about what's behind these decisions. So Emma spoke to a couple of listeners earlier in the week, Rowan and Destiny. She spoke to Rowan first. They basically fall into two categories. One is my happiness and the other is a child's happiness. And at the moment, I just don't think that a person born now would come out of their life being happier than they would be unhappy. It feels the world in itself is burning and we're constantly being told about climate change and, you know, even on the show about rape convictions, sexual assault, domestic violence.

And just the idea of bringing someone into that, knowing that they, even if none of that happens, will inherently suffer, feels like an incredibly selfish act on my part because my body wants a baby, essentially. Because when you wrote to us, you made it clear you would like to have children, but you don't feel you can do it in good conscience. Yeah, so I would. I'd love to have kids. I'd love to have a big family. And, you know, that image that we're given.

But actually the reality of it, I think I would just constantly be anxious about their welfare welfare about the world I think my happiness would really suffer I've not I'm yet to meet a woman who hadn't struggled through motherhood and but that sorry that's that's for a whole other range of reasons not necessarily those I mean you can have the existential element and I'm not downplaying that that's why I want to hear from you. But as well documented on this programme, there's a whole other range of reasons why you may struggle with motherhood.

Of course, but for me personally, I'm not sure I want to put myself through that or risk that for myself. And how old are you at the moment? I'm 29. Are you in a relationship? Have you expressed this to those around you? Yeah, so I'm not in a relationship at the moment. I was last year. I was in a very long term relationship last year and we were actually trying for a baby at that point. And then one thing led to another and we broke up very amicably. And I couldn't be more grateful. And I'm sure he feels the same way that I didn't get pregnant, have this person in a in either a relationship that wasn't working or suddenly I was a single

mum and they weren't in their child's life as often just the thought of that how easy life can change really really brought home to me for me how hard being a mother would be and how unfair it would be on that child to because I wanted a child now they have to live they have to go through life and everything it throws at you you don't seem to be alone in this especially with that global report that I I just mentioned let's go back to destiny here where she is with this I can totally relate the anxiety is rising pressures are also rising I don't think I've ever um you know experienced a time where someone isn't asked, well, when are they having children? When are they getting married? And, you know, I got married in

the pandemic last year. And it was only then that I actually saw the impact of kind of having your own family and raising your own family and also the mental health side of it as well because like Rowan said it is a very big challenge and it is hard and I speak to mothers around me I do have friends my age who are mothers. You're how old? I'm 27. Okay sorry so carry on just it's good for us to you know with the the the average age of women having children in this country now being around 30 or so, it's interesting to put you in that. Yeah, well, I think that's really interesting because, you know, getting married for me

was something that I was really excited about. And, you know, it's a big thing in my culture. But the only thing is when we do get married, there is that expectation, whether it's unknown, whether it's subconscious or, you know, just said outright to have children and to start a family marriage and you know I'm learning more about myself about my husband and just seeing how I fit into this world what I can bring to this world like Rowan it is something that I would want my child to be able to um you know experience in it in the fullness of it rather than kind of just trying to make ends meet or that kind of thing and also um you know from a from a climate and environmental perspective it is very interesting that you know you said that it's the single most damaging thing that we could do I definitely

think there are anxieties around it but what what I do think about the anxieties is that, you know, if I feel called to have a child, you know, in the future, in my 30s, late 30s, whatever, I would never feel so afraid. Because, I don't know, I just trust and I do have a hope that what's meant to be will be. And living a sustainable life is important to me now and that's why when I would raise my children I would also try to raise them in the most sustainable way as well. Does your husband want children? Yeah so he does and we speak about this often you know it would be lovely to to kind of raise children but I think we're both at the stage now where, you know, we're really excited about our careers and kind of just being married. And again, I didn't think I could be at a place now where I'm so excited of, you know, starting my own business and just coming to

myself. So I think waiting until whenever is fine for us both. Okay, so what you've both got in common is that you are open to it and it almost sounds like you need to get to a different point. I don't want to paraphrase either of you and I'll come back to you, Rowan, in just a moment. You know, you want to get to a different point or be able to feel okay about it

if something else either changes in you or around you. Just to come back to something you said there, Destiny, there's a message, I didn't say, I was quoting Anna on email who said, it's the single most environmentally damaging act you can perpetrate as an individual. What I questioned there, and it was in light of a conversation, I don't know if you heard it last week on the programme, I had Professor Tim Dyson on to talk about the effects of population on the planet. 8 billion people, obviously an issue. But he said, seeing as we are where we are,

if women and men want a baby or two, then it won't make much difference. So he was putting it in the context of what it will actually do. And if you like, the order of what needs to change before, which will make major change, which is why I was quibbling that point. Rowan, what do you make of that, though?

Because that's what someone who's an expert in population had to say. Does that convince you in any way? It's great that one or two children won't affect the environment, but I'm not so concerned about that. It's more that particular child's experience in life. So I just don't believe that they would be particularly happy with the world around them constantly feeling like every everything is going wrong whether it is or not you know whether that's just how we're feeling at the moment but it just feels there's constant anxiety around climate

change there's constant anxiety around social media. How would you navigate that? I'd like that all of that anxiety is on me at the moment. And I don't want to put that onto a person who hasn't, I know this sounds strange, but hasn't expressly consented to being alive. It's all my selfish need to bring them into the world. And it just doesn't seem particularly fair on them. There's a message here from Sarah, who says a few years ago, I heard listeners on the radio say they were choosing not to have children for reasons like climate change and those those concerns. I distinctly remember rolling my eyes and scoffing at the thought that that could be even be a consideration and there will be some people of course doing that at the moment there'll be others really thinking I've had these thoughts maybe I haven't felt I could share them. A few

years later she says as my friends started to have children, I feel no desire to have them myself and to do it myself. I watch the news. I find the climate change story so depressing. Why would I choose to bring a child into the world where there is instability and no plan to start managing it that will make a difference? I would now say that that is my core reason for not having children. That's quite a change isn't it Rome? Yeah and I have had a similar journey I wouldn't say that I've rolled my eyes at

it it's always been a concern but now now that I'm in my late 20s and it's a real option for me I'm in a like I could bring a child into the world now and it would be financially fine, my life would be all right. But I feel like climate change is the big overarching thing in all of our lives. And I've got a million other reasons not to have children. But that's, of course, a significant one. And as I've got older, as I've been able to actively think about it and look at the different arguments, my conclusion is that it's just unkind to everyone involved to have children destiny do you think you're going to come out

uh in a place i mean rowan at the moment certainly sounds like she's she's definitely not there yeah where do you think you're going to come out on this i i definitely feel like i'm more open to the the idea of having children um it's more of a case or it's less of a case of of fear for me um when I think about having children I don't just think how cute it is on Instagram to you know have have mummy and daughter pictures or something like that it's really I'm thinking more forward about schooling, about, you know, good access to clean air and green spaces and quality of food. And all that plays a part. And so I think that's why it would be much, much later on, where me and my husband have come to an agreement that actually we can provide in our what's in our control these certain aspects to

be able to raise a child. Emma speaking to listeners Destiny and Rowan. Well Judith emailed in to say women's reluctance to have children because of the state of the planet reminds me that this is not new. I remember as a teenager and in my 20s many women talked about not having children because of the nuclear war threat hanging over us and before the pill this was a very serious decision in relationships. Robert writes in to say to all those considering not having children like Rowan and Destiny you are the people the world needs to be having children. We should have more faith that you would raise children to be more mindful of all the issues being spoken about. It's you and your children that can really make a difference. There are far too many children born to parents that are unaware or indifferent to all of this.

And if there is anything you think we should be discussing and want to talk to us about on air, then do get in touch with us. We would love to hear from you. You can contact us via our website or on Twitter or Instagram. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. That's it for me. I hope you've enjoyed the programme. Do join Emma again from Monday at BBC Woman's Hour. That's it for me. I hope you've enjoyed the programme. Do join Emma again from Monday at two minutes past 10. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.