Woman's Hour - Dame Emma Thompson, Binner or Flusher, Spare Rib & Virago at 50, Surgeon Ian Paterson, Dolly Alderton

Episode Date: June 11, 2022

Oscar-winner Dame Emma Thompson on women's pleasure and full frontal nudity in her latest acting role in Good Luck To You, Leo Grande. Are you a 'flusher' or a ‘binner’? New research says 2.4 million tampons are flushed down UK toilets every day leading to sewer blockages and pollution. We talk to Martha Silcott who's developed a simple product to encourage you to bin and Daisy Buchanan who says more needs to be done to make a product which flushes without causing environmental harm.In 2017 surgeon Ian Paterson was jailed for 20 years after being found guilty of 17 counts of wounding with intent. Mr Paterson was diagnosing cancer when there wasn’t any and cutting his patients open for no reason, performing unnecessary and damaging surgery. He also carried out unregulated "cleavage-sparing" mastectomies, in which breast tissue was left behind, meaning cancer returned in many of his patients. Ahead of a new ITV documentary Emma speaks to the whistleblower who raised concerns about Ian Paterson – Mr Hemant Ingle, and one of Paterson’s victims Debbie Douglas, who is still campaigning for a change in the law to prevent anything like this from happening again.50 years ago this month the first edition of the iconic feminist magazine Spare Rib was published. Also in that year - 1972 – and inspired by its founders, Rosie Boycott and Marsha Rowe, Carmen Callil founded the book publisher Virago which still gives a voice and platform to female writers today. Emma hears from the three trailblazing women. Can platonic love survive romantic love as we grow up? The writer Dolly Alderton on her new BBC TV series, an adaptation of her 2018 memoir ‘Everything I Know About Love’.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. We've collated a selection of the standout moments from the week just gone in case you missed them, because we're nice like that. In a moment, Emma Thompson gets intimate. And we ask whether you're a flusher or a binner. We're talking about sanitary products.

We hear from the whistleblower who drew the authority's attention to the activities of Ian Patterson, the now-imprisoned breast surgeon performing unnecessary operations on women and men. 50 years since both were created, we speak to the founders of the iconic feminist magazine Spare Rib and the book publisher Virago, which gives a voice and platform to female writers. And Dolly Alderton on the TV adaptation of her book,

Everything I Know About Love and the Joys of Being an Agony Ant. It's going to be a good one. First, Oscar winner Dame Emma Thompson has graced our screens for four decades. As an actor, she's played all kinds of women, from her role as Eleanor Dashwood in Sense and Sensibility to the fantastically styled Baroness in Cruella. Now she's taking on a very different kind of role. Good Luck to You, Leo Grand tells the story of Nancy Stokes,

played by Emma, a 55-year-old widow who's never had an orgasm. After the death of her husband, she decides to hire a significantly younger sex worker, played by the Irish actor Daryl McCormack. You may know him from Peaky Blinders. The film, written by author and comedian Katie Brand, focuses almost exclusively on these two characters, and it features Emma's first ever nude scenes. Emma Barnett began by asking Emma Thompson

what drew her to the part. The unbelievable script written by my friend Katie Brand who sent it to me with one of those, well I'm not sure, I don't know, anyway have a read of it, I had you in mind and I read it and just thought it was extraordinary. These two people who slowly uncover one another. At the heart of it is pleasure, female pleasure, and what it can give to you and what it can bring to your life. And we still don't really have that. And a lot of women don't prioritise that or feel it's their right to want that and have it. Oh, absolutely.

I mean, I was asked recently whether that was a generational thing whether it is or not it's it's persisted through the generations I mean I can remember my grandmother or my paternal grandmother saying that she thought she felt sorry for men because they had to have sex they had to do it and that was a sad thing so she had clearly she told me when she was 88 she clearly had never ever had any sexual pleasure of any kind that she had endured it in a sort of what we might term Victorian Wales that's a bit unfair because I think some of the Victorians had quite a good time but anyway only the men obviously but then my mum who was Presbyian, I think maybe had only my father was her lover.

I think they had a better time because it just was slightly more acceptable. And also they worked in the theatre. It was a little bit freer and more bohemian and so sexual pleasure was not necessarily discussed but sex homosexuality different kinds of sexuality were a little bit more on display then my generation I think we were bullied actually in lots of ways all I can remember is Cosmo appearing to suggest that if you weren't permanently in a pink state of breathless ecstasy there there was something wrong with you. You know, the orgasm was always on the front cover of every cosmo. And I thought, why is this so important? And then my daughter's generation, some of them, I think, actually have a good deal of leeway and elbow room and discussion about it

and freer mores, but not all of them. I have also had discussions with young friends of my daughter in their 20s that have revealed in their groups, you know, lots of women who haven't had orgasms, haven't experienced pleasure, feel that they have to perform their pleasure, feel that they can't be honest about whether they've actually enjoyed themselves or not, think that somehow blokes have got to be taken care of in some way so you can't offend a chap by suggesting that whatever he's doing isn't much fun or say just a little bit to the left yeah exactly

yeah well because i think what's extraordinary about this is it's going to be, as you will have already found out, I'm sure, not uncommon that some women have not had an orgasm, as you've mentioned, whatever age. There's a sadness that you display in the film and anxiety, of course, but a sadness as well. And of course, you mentioned religion as well there briefly. But, you know, what the message has been around masturbation and women and pleasure. I don't want to spoil anything, but, you know, that's a process, shall we say, covered in the film as well. That's also something I'm sure you've thought about during this. Of course, of course. We have, for all sorts of peculiar, but I mean, very powerful cultural reasons, managed to place in many ways beyond the pale one of the only things that's not

only free but really really good for us healthy both emotionally and physically really good for our bodies these feelings um orgasm or pleasure sexual pleasure of any kind is actually very very good for us and it's peculiar because we are obsessed with other forms of pleasure i mean we'll take our pleasure at eating or drinking to the most insane extremes um but we're very loath to discuss i think in any real honest way and especially with the young and with our children what and where sexual pleasure really does reside in the body as well as in the heart and the mind. We don't talk about that. It's been so industrialized in order to sell back to us. We discover these things and then they're taken away, made into things and then sold back.

And I think that's a tragedy and a great loss to us all. And I think it's also the cause of huge difficulties and problems and at the root of a great deal of violence too. There is this scene, which I think will become iconic, of you standing in front of the mirror completely naked after sex, not looking that upset with yourself. You know, sort of having a bit of a look at, you know, what your body's done, where it's at. There was so much without any words that I could get from that. And I really felt what a lovely moment. How did it feel doing that? It's so interesting that you should pick up on how she's looking at herself because I thought,

how am I going to stand? How Nancy how when she's there what's she going to do what's happened to her because the one thing she can't do is look at her body in the way that she looked at it before that is to say with judgment she's got to be at ease in some way and I worked out how I wanted to stand, very relaxed and knee-crooked, like the picture of Eve that Cranach did in The Adam and Eve, the beautiful medieval pictures of Eve just standing there with one leg slightly bent, looking very relaxed. I don't think that any woman I know stands in front of a mirror. Well, they don't by choice anyway.

I certainly don't look at myself in the mirror. But if they do, they're constantly tucking or tweaking or it's impossible. But Nancy, through the good offices of this remarkable and compassionate and humane sex worker, Leo, has reached a different point. She's looking at her body with a kind of wonder and an excitement because she thinks, this is mine now. I can feel

that pleasure again if I want to. And I don't have to make much of an effort. I don't have to change myself. I don't have to make myself acceptable. I don't even have to find a man or a woman or another partner. I can have that pleasure. It's mine now. And she therefore is looking at herself with, I suppose, a kind of ownership and an acceptance that I think is very, very rare. When I talk to women, as I do literally all the time, and they all say the same thing. No, of course. No, I don't like this.

I don't like that. I don't like the other. No matter what their bodies are like, we're the same we are all dissatisfied and I think that's a waste of our passion our energy our time our money and our purpose in life. Have you found a way having done that scene now to you say you don't look at yourself really in the mirror, but to feel differently perhaps or change that, is it something you think you can rewire? No, I think that I was brought up with it from a very early age. I think that the brainwashing started when I was very young. I think that rewiring is a very good way of putting it because I think those neural pathways have been carved far too deeply

into my psyche and that they were carved very early and if you talk to mothers now they will tell you that most children with female children sometimes also male children and trans children that's a different issue probably but actually it all connects up with not being satisfied with your body and mostly to do with losing weight. I deeply resent the fact that my attitude to my body and my comfort in my body was taken from me. I mean, I think literally taken away from me when I was very young and I didn't look right, that I didn't have the right kind of body, that all of the 99% male executives would not be interested anyway in that way. So that will absolutely be persisting.

And, of course, until we get much more parity in all aspects of production, that will continue. And yet, here you are in your 60s, standing there naked, having taken this role, having been offered this role, written by a woman, as you say, Casey Brand, and it's quite a moment. And I don't wish to lower the tone, maybe it's raising the tone, but can we just take a moment to talk about pubes, Emma Thompson?

Yes. Let's go. Go pubes. Go on it. Because, you know, this is the thing. You know, a lot of people, a lot of women get rid of them. That's what they're also taught to do. You are standing there. I'm sure some people, you know, might zoom in and have a good look around once they see a famous person naked. I didn't do that. But what's your view on that? And how did you feel kind of preparing to be fully naked? Did you did you change anything? Did you go did you change anything did you I don't know go to go anywhere did I shave I yeah I don't know what was what was the plan you did do that I didn't

curse me to do that but you're so right I greatly regret the demise of the full bush um I think it's a great shame it's just sad isn't it and men too I and that, can you imagine the pain? So I don't know. I mean, I, I did once do the full thing years and years and years ago, but really I, I regret it because, um, never quite grown back to my liking and, but that's also getting, getting old, but the whole thing of we've got to get rid of all our hair is odd, isn't it? And probably not very healthy. I haven't shaved under my arms for a long, long time, but I do still shave my legs. I've just got into that habit. And when they grow back in my hairs, I'm not entirely comfortable.

And I go, well, that's brainwashing as well. No, no, it completely is. I mean, hearing you talk about the demise of the bush is a personal highlight now of one's career. I'm sure will prompt many messages from our listeners. I'm sure it will, yes. Dame Emma Thompson speaking to Emma there. And good luck to you. Leo Grand is in cinemas in the UK from the 17th of June.

And so many of you responded to that interview. Sally got in touch to say, When I married at 19, I did not achieve orgasm from normal sex, but in order not to upset my husband, I pretended to orgasm. When, a few years later, I said to my husband that I didn't think I'd had an orgasm he said of course you have she faked it that well Anushka got in touch to say Emma Thompson is so right about how difficult in brackets impossible it is to rewrite our brains I don't shave my armpits

and I definitely rock a 70s bush but I cannot get over hairy legs and shave religiously this morning I caught myself telling my daughter that she could not go to school with her hairy legs on show. She turned around and said, Mum, you've been brainwashed by the patriarchy. She is so right. Really enjoying these messages. And Karen says,

As a teenager in the 70s, I was angry about the trend, even then, of women being expected to shave their body hair. I decided to make a feature of my underarm hair and dyed it green. If you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you've heard on the programme or any item you'd like us to cover, we'd love to hear from you. You can email us by going to our website or contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, it's been described as one of the biggest medical scandals ever to have hit this

country, and the man at the centre of it became known as the butchering breast surgeon. In 2017, surgeon Ian Patterson was jailed for 20 years after being found guilty of 17 counts of wounding with intent. Mr Patterson, who was working for both the NHS and private hospitals in the West Midlands, was diagnosing cancer when there wasn't any and cutting his patients open for no reason, performing unnecessary and damaging surgery. He also carried out unregulated cleavage-sparing mastectomies in which breast tissue was left behind, meaning cancer returned in many of his female patients.

The cases of hundreds of more women Patterson performed surgery on are still being investigated. A new ITV documentary being broadcast this weekend will hear for the first time from whistleblower Mr. Hermant Ingle, who worked alongside Patterson at Solihull Hospital, as well as one of his private patients, Debbie Douglas, who's still campaigning for justice. Emma asked Mr Ingle, who started working with him in 2007, whether he had concerns early on. No, I didn't have any concerns early on.

Only thing is when I joined, the first day when we met, after our multidisciplinary team meeting, I went to introduce myself because he had not met me before. And his first comment was, we don't need you. So you can imagine as a new consultant who's newly appointed, when you get a response like that, you're taken aback. I could see that he was going to be a difficult character. But I had known that before, simply because five years before I was appointed, there was another consultant who actually left the job. And basically after six months in the job, he didn't give her any clinic, didn't give her any theatre.

And eventually when she said, look, I need something, he said, well, this is how it's going to be. It's a dog eat dog world. If you want to stay, stay, otherwise you can leave. So I knew it's not going to be easy. What did provoke your concern? He was advocating reconstruction inappropriately. And I thought this is not really right. Some of the cases you shouldn't be advising reconstruction. And to the extent that four cases where he advised reconstruction, I took them and presented in Warwick Hospital, which is nearby, and some of them are colleagues, just to make sure that I'm not making a fuss unnecessarily and in fact three of the cases they flatly refused they said this is dangerous you shouldn't be

offering reconstruction one of them there was a bit of a debate as far as I know even those three cases where Warwick said you shouldn't be operating he still went out and did the reconstruction but one of the major concern was when he asked me one day to say, can you go ahead and do a reconstruction on the lady who he'd seen privately? And he said, well, that lady has got pre-cancer. The word we use is DCIS, which is called ductal carcinoma in situ. And I thought, well, actually, the man is not too bad, even though we're fighting. He's obviously offering his theater list. You know, as a junior surgeon, as a consultant, you think, well, somebody's offering you, they're trusting your

ability. But the standard is to present the case properly, to say, this is the histology, this side we're doing it, this is the mammogram. He didn't have anything. So I said, look, can we discuss it next week? And next week also, it was the same scenario, no histology available. And I had to actually go to the immunity coordinator and say,

can you find this histology wherever it is? The shock to me was when the third time it was presented, there was no DCIS in this case. It was a completely benign histology. Why do you want me to do a mastectomy on somebody when it's a benign tissue? Where I felt really sad and anxious that he just became angry, didn't answer to me, but nobody in that MDT, where so many people,

pathologists, radiologists, breast care nurses, another colleague of mine, nobody even once then stopped him to say, Ian, why did you actually ask him to do this? That's when my tentacles were up to say, this guy will really do anything. And he still obviously doesn't like me, doesn't want me there. What sort of responses were you receiving when you did go on to raise your concerns with more senior people at Solihull Hospital, NHS Trust, and then also where he worked, the private provider, Spire Healthcare? Well, Spire Healthcare really won't come in picture at this stage. Because remember, when you're appointed a consultant surgeon, all you're looking after is making sure that you actually establish properly you do a job properly suddenly changing from a registrar becoming consultant is not easy somebody is always supervising you as your registrar when you become consultant you are now responsible so private you never even came in picture at that time private came in picture much later on but some of the cases that came across, they were alarming. Mastectomy, what we tell

patients, if you remove 95 to 97% of the breast tissue, that's what a mastectomy is, right? Now, the first case that I saw, and unfortunately, this lady has passed away. Her sister is also my patient. If I just give you briefly, this lady had a left breast cancer, and he persuaded her to have reconstruction. There were various reasons behind that. But this lady had a left breast cancer and he persuaded her to have reconstruction there were various reasons behind that but this lady had large breasts and all she wanted is bilateral mastectomy so that she didn't want to carry this breast all along he did first cancer surgery and he did a left mastectomy so first mastectomy on the left side the tissue removed was 1 kilo 74 grams that's the cancer side it's a 5.1 millimeter cancer then he left so much tissue behind that when she wasn't happy he did then second surgery and in the

second surgery he removed further 800 grams of tissue now that's 40 percent of breast tissue left behind and on the right side that i you started the operation, he removed something like 800 grams of tissue in the first operation. On the right side, in the second operation, 970 grams breast of tissue removed. And this patient was still wearing

an A-cup bra. So you can imagine that was really something I just couldn't understand. How can you describe it as a mastectomy? Have you ever understood his motivations? I'm not going to comment on that topic because obviously it will be a conjecture.

I and so many of my colleagues, we got our own idea why what was this was happening. But NHS was one motivation and private was another motivation. Let me bring in Debbie at this point. What sort of treatment did you receive from Ian Patterson? I presented to Ian Patterson with a less than two centimetre tumour and basically no spread to my lymph nodes and I went in on the Friday and on the Monday he went from telling me my lymph had to be removed to telling me my breast had to come off but he could immediately reconstruct my breast. He could give me a single mastectomy and I'd go in with two boobs and come out with two boobs and a nice flat stomach.

And that's how he used to talk. He basically said, if you do what I say, it's curable. So I had every faith in him and went along and was only to find out years down the line that I was over-operated on. And that was the issue? Because what was true and what was not true? So what was true is I had cancer. A lot of people didn't have cancer. The people that talked to me didn't have cancer. The people that were in court, the 10 people in court didn't have cancer.

But you did? I did, but I did not need to have an immediate reconstruction and my breast removed. And it was a very debilitating operation. I was cut from hip to hip. I was removed on my lymph nodes. I was given chemo. I was overscanned under Patterson. He would get you in this culture of fear and always on the edge where you need a scan.

You know, people worry anyway when they've got cancer or they've had cancer that potentially could come back. And what he was doing was he was keeping in this loop of fear. And what happened to people like me and many thousands of patients, you know, you're talking about 11,000 patients had to be written to that saw Patterson. He would then have you back. One example is that I he scanned me using a PET scan technique which is quite invasive and he said to me you have a nodule of dubious suspicion on your right lung and immediately I thought oh my god my dad died of cancer I've got cancer and it was always this kind of cat and mouse game almost with him saying, you're cured, I've done everything for you, and then saying, oh, but you need this scan.

So the mental anguish really that he caused patients can't be underestimated. You know, when he came into me telling me that he told them, for example, that cancer was like ants spreading around their body and, you know, they had phobias about ants. There was so much trauma caused by this man. It's unfathomable. Well, I'm very sorry for what happened to you. And I think we must say that. But also, I'm very aware of the fact that you've been involved with persuading people to come forward once it started to come to light that there was issues.

And as you say, and as I mentioned at the beginning, there are more women in particular, as well as men, we should say, who are still being contacted and are unaware of whether something happened to them that shouldn't. And I have to say, we've just received the most extraordinary message, Debbie, if I can read it to you, from a listener who said, I've tuned in this morning to discover that you are doing an article on Ian Patterson. I'm in shock as I received the news last week that my operation performed by Ian Patterson was totally unnecessary as none of the diagnostic tests revealed that any

surgery was necessary. I'm sure that many more cases will continue to appear and it is horrific that this went on with no questions being raised. The scale of lies and deceit is horrific. There's no name on that message, but that just came in as we were talking, Debbie. That's honestly typical. I belonged to various support groups. I was part of a Solihull Breast Friends cancer charity

straight after my diagnosis almost. And I fundraised for them, became part of the committee. So I was in a position to hear so many stories. We were being recalled and we were told it was just fatty tissue. But I knew in my own case and then in others talking to others that it was more than that. I also knew that people were having unnecessary general surgery. Your campaigning led to a full government inquiry. We have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care who say, and I'll let you come back in on this in just a moment, but the statement says patients of Ian Paterson were undoubtedly failed by the system

that should have protected them. We apologise to all of those who suffered unnecessarily from his horrific malpractice. The Health and Social Care Secretary has been clear that the system must never let patients down like this again. We have accepted the majority of recommendations Let me just read a couple more statements. A spokesperson for University Hospitals Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust which merged with the Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust in 2018 say the trust wholly condemns Patterson's actions and the inaction culture poor governance surrounding decisions made by Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust during that time. Too many patients received horrendous treatment at the hands of Paterson, and we have endeavoured and continue to do our utmost to support them in extremely distressing circumstances.

And I mentioned a private health provider, Spire Healthcare earlier. There's a statement here which says, We apologise for the significant distress and harm suffered by patients who were treated by Ian Paterson in our hospitals. Spire has changed radically since 2011. Our culture, management and standards have been overhauled

with safety and quality sitting at the heart of everything we do. Systems are in place which enable us to identify consultants whose practice could give rise to concern and we are able to take action quickly to respond to those. Debbie Douglas, to come back to you, I know that you have stayed with what's happened to that government inquiry in terms of the findings. Are you satisfied? The government inquiry, the recommendations are great, but they're not implemented. Those inquiry recommendations came out in 2020. I have regular meetings with the Department of

Health, usually every six weeks, I would say. However, the pace of this change is totally inadequate one of the recommendations of the government throughout or they didn't accept I would say is that surgeons who harm patients should be suspended immediately now it talks in the report about proven or shown to have harmed patients so we're not talking about a witch hunt where we're getting rid of consultants. But in Patterson's case, in 1994, he cut through three vital organs in a lady, I shan't name, but she almost bled to death. And the point of that, in 1994, he was shown to lie about the reason for that injury and what happened to her. He basically said it was an equipment malfunction. So that shows then his traits. Debbie Douglas and Mr Hemant Ingle and you can watch Bodies of Evidence, The Butcher Surgeon on ITV on Sunday evening at

20 past 10. Now serious question for 51% of the population. Are you a flusher or a binner? We're talking about getting rid of tampons and towels. What makes you decide whether to flip that bin lid or just drop and flush? We got thinking about this question on the show because some new research has come out, which says 2.4 million tampons are flushed down UK toilets every day. This leads to sewer blockages and damage to rivers and waterways. This research was published by the PHS group, which is a sanitary bin provider, probably in their best interest to promote bin use. But they say four million tampons are flushed down toilets every day.

But why do some women still feel uncomfortable using sanitary bins? Martha Silcott is an entrepreneur who's developed a simple product to encourage you to bin tampons and towels. And Daisy Buchanan is an author and journalist and is a binner. I began by asking Martha what she made of the findings. I'm not surprised by this figure. I can even add to the woes of that figure by saying that 1.5 million pads are also flushed. We must talk about the education. What do you do when you need to bin them and get rid of them? Because the packaging isn't really that clear. And we need to have this

conversation nice and early at schools, at home, and help to break down the taboo because it's the taboo around periods that is still making this behaviour happen in 2022. Why do you think women don't know that they shouldn't be flushing? Why hasn't the message got out there? Because when you start your period, you only have this conversation, it seems, once. So you might start your period at 10 years old, 11 years old, and your mom or your friend or your sister, whoever has that conversation with you, they will tell you to do whatever they do. So they will say, oh, it's fine to flush your tampons or pads down the toilet don't worry it's hygienic and if they're a binner they'll say you know don't ever do that wrap it up in toilet roll put it in the bin but you never seem to have that conversation again and this is where the taboo

kicks in it's really difficult to then educate and change habits once you're set in your habit, which starts so early. I mean, flushers and binners coexist, but they actually don't even realise that each other exists because everybody thinks that everyone does what they do. And the research suggested that two out of every five people know they shouldn't flush sanitary products down the toilet, but they do it anyway. Can you explain what the thought process is behind the guilty flusher? We find that flushers are either gobsmacked or they're guilty. And most flushers, to be fair, are gobsmacked flushers. They genuinely have never thought about what happens when you flush something down the toilet. And they certainly aren't aware of the environmental damage that this causes. When you flush something down

the toilet, it goes into the sewer, if you're lucky. And the sewers are designed to overflow into rivers to help control flooding generally. So this is how a lot of items get into the rivers, which then lead to the ocean. So it's this lack of education, which kind of helps if you like that flushing behavior to continue. Binners are kind of outraged that flushes exist and yet flushes on the whole don't realize they're doing anything wrong. You mentioned the guilty flushes. I was quite surprised at how high that was if I'm honest but they do exist because they just can't cope with the binning process. They don't enjoy doing the loo roll wrap. They find it off-putting or unhygienic and they just prefer to just flush it down the toilet and forget it's even happened. Exactly. So we sort of need to kind of make the

system easier. The idea that we are still figuring out how to dispose of sanitary towels when we know that they are so damaging for the environment i'm sure most women don't want to flush them down the toilet of course they don't if you know it's going to be damaging you'd be much more convenient for us to be able to dispose of them properly if it was convenient that's what we need to get to the bottom i'm going to bring lots of people are getting in touch with it about this very impressed with how open and honest everyone's being emma says i'm a a binner. Dog poo bag in bathroom at home. Get rid of it all in one go.

It's the home, not the public clues, I think is the issue. And that she's right, isn't she? It is the homes that is the issue, Martha. I don't think it's the homes that is the sole issue. I think that it's quite evenly split between what flushers do and where they flush. If you have large families with multiple people on their period at the same time, the bin can get full really quickly because it's usually in the

bathroom, you have a really small bin. Maybe just even shame, you know, not wanting anyone else in the household to know that you're on your period. In some circumstances, it will be shame. And that's just terrible that we still have shame linked directly with periods. But in other cases, I think there's a difference between shame and privacy. Just because you want to keep your period private and don't want to make an official announcement by having blood-soaked items in the bin doesn't mean to say you're necessarily ashamed of your period.

I think there's a difference. I'm going to bring Daisy Buchanan in on this. She's an author and a journalist, and I believe you're a binner, Daisy. I am a reformed binner. Reformed. And I say, we need to change the system. I think we also need to change the system. My mum told me not to flush. I didn't really like the process of binning as a sort of a self-conscious awkward teenager and

I was like well I don't understand why you wouldn't flush these because we flush loo roll and it seems like a product that's in that family and one very expensive visit from a plumber later and I will now bin forever but I do believe that sanitary wear is not really fit for purpose as it stands I applaud applaud, you know, Martha and the brilliant people, you know, mainly, you know, women and people who have periods making these sort of major changes in this industry. But also, I don't think that the way that sanitary wear is designed is effective. And I know it's probably very expensive, very complicated, and I'm not entirely sure sort of how the science would work but I would make biodegradable sanitary wear it should be redesigned so that we can

flush it I mean I think our the priorities here in terms of periods and education are about eradicating shame also eradicating period poverty so that everyone who menstruates can do so safely you know I do I really really resent the fact that it's one of the many environmental issues that is sort of you know laid at the feet of women like here's another thing for you to feel guilty about and anxious about and worry about like yes of course let's eradicate all the shame um around periods and any anxiety that we have but also I think that we shouldn't feel bad about feeling bad about anything and it's become another thing to to worry about in terms of education that if you do have issues or concerns around having a bin of used sanitary wear in your bathroom and

also as you know when we're out and about often the disposal facilities aren't always clean or clear or available I think in terms of education the shame is the wrong way around the best thing we can do is start to understand why some of us want to flush yes absolutely exactly what we're doing oh sorry yes you want to come in there Martha you know when I first started Fabulous Bag, I felt like a lone voice shouting about periods. It wasn't really out there. And it's been amazing, the change that has happened in a relatively super short time. If you think of the decades of zero change now, girls starting their period. It's not just about tampons and pads. It's about reusable pads. It's about menstrual cups. It's about period knickers. So we are now in a phase of diversification of the options, most of which have a huge environmentally positive impact. It's going to take a while, but at least that's happening now. I think, Daisy, your mum might have been ahead of the game.

Do you think, Martha, there's a generational difference between flushers and binners? There is absolutely a generational difference. My generation, probably anyone over about 30 now would be more likely to flush than the youngsters of today. And I think that the last five years of getting rid of the tampon tax, the word tampon being said out loud in House of Parliament, just little things like that, and the explosion of organic period products and alternatives and reusables and social media, and that generation being much more comfortable to share personal information online. I think all of this is helping to break down the taboo. We still have a huge way to go. You know, there's lots of small things that we all can do to really speed that up.

That was Martha Silcott and Daisy Buchanan. And Lauren wrote in to say, thanks for talking about this today. my workplace hasn't provided any bins so this is a good reminder to bring this up with them again we have no choice but to flush or take our tampons out of the bathroom into the kitchen bin and bernadette intentional binner occasional flusher got in touch to say as the daughter of a plumber wouldn't have dared do anything else however struggled greatly when visiting people who had no bins in their bathroom and sometimes had no option giving rise to feeling of guilt. Education and open discussion is key to change on this. And also, a bin with a lid on it in your bathroom really helps. Remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am

during the week. All you have to do is subscribe to the Daily Podcast. It's absolutely free and you can find it on the Woman's Hour website. Now, 50 years ago this month, the first edition of the iconic feminist magazine Spare Rib was published. It set out to offer an alternative to existing women's magazines at a time when the women's liberation movement was challenging women's secondary place in society. Also in that year, 1972, and inspired by the magazine's founders, Rosie Boycott and Marsha Rowe, Carmen Kalil founded Virago, the book publisher which gives a voice and platform to female writers that continues and flourishes today. This week, a party was held at the British Library in celebration. Emma spoke to all three founders and began by asking Rosie what made her and Marsha come together

to start Spare Rib. Well, both Marsha and I were working for underground newspapers. I was working for something called Friends, F-R-E-N-D-Z. I'll have you know, a very important distinction. Marsha was on the much more famous Oz. Oz had indeed just been through the Oz trial. And we all started to realize, Marsha in particular, because she was the first person to set up group meetings. But we had also done a women's issue at Friends that being in the underground press was meant to be a wonderful alternative life for all

where we'd all be free and happy. But in fact, what it meant for women was that we still did the typing, still made the coffee with the added bonus of being expected to be sexually available 24-7 for basically anyone. So for the blokes, it was a fabulous deal. And for the women, you suddenly realized you were in yet another different kind of trap. And I think it's fair to say that when we met, the great thing about the first meetings, which Marsha will tell you about,

was that we realised our worries and concerns were not just our own. These were common. The thing was nobody talked about them. Marsha, how did those meetings come about? Tell us about them. Apparently, it was the galvanisation of the women's movement into sort of very slow awareness of yes we should do something and that the underground press was male dominated so I was

living with Louise Furrier who was partner with the Oz editor and I rang everyone and they all came round that night and we didn't in fact talk about work what we talked about was our private lives and how the sexual independence and sexual freedom of the 60s had left us in a really difficult you know position women had had children they'd had to give them up there were issues like abortion or you know health and I mean at the end of it it seemed so sort of scary to be talking about these things everyone left and Louise and I just sat there looking at each other and thought no one you know, health. And I mean, at the end of it, it seemed so sort of scary to be talking about these things. Everyone left. And Louise and I just sat there

looking at each other and thought no one will ever speak to us again. And then you put it down in ink on paper. Carmen Khalil, thank you for being with us. At this time, I believe you were helping with some of the publicity for Spare Rib.

Yes, in return for them doing an advertisement for my book publicity company, because I'd left publishing at that time because I couldn't stand working for lazy men anymore, really. That was some of it. And I put in an ad that said, anything outrageous suitably publicised. So I did that. They put my ad in and I did the publicity for them.

And then a couple of weeks after I saw the first issue, I thought, well, if they can do that for magazines, I can do that for books. And that's how it started. Just to go back then to the magazine content for a moment and Carmen, I'll come back to you. Who were you aiming it at, Marsha? Women all around the country. Women's liberation movement at the time

was very much ridiculed and misunderstood in the national press. The women's movement was tiny, just a few hundred women. And when I'd worked on Oz magazine in Australia back in the early 60s, reading it for the first time opened my eyes that there was a new world from this very conformist, fairly racist Sydney as it was then. And I thought, well, a magazine just is out there on the newsstands for any woman, no matter what small village or isolated place that she would live in.

And what you were writing, Rosie, what you were publishing was different to the fair at the time as well, wasn't it? Yes, the magazine market, I mean, this is before you have digital publishing. So it was very, very dominated with woman and Woman and Woman's Own, who between them, I think, sold four million copies a week. I mean, it was something quite extraordinary, the dominance. And every short story would end with the woman walking to the altar.

And that was the kind of common thread that life would be happy ever after because you'd landed your man. And a white wedding, of course. Of course, a white wedding. I mean, the whole nine yards. But that was what went through all the editorial and all the fiction. And so in the initial stages, we did.

I mean, if you look at the very early Spare Ribs, we did want to get away from being an underground newspaper, which, of course, if you remember them, they were very colourful. They had crazy cartoons. They were quite chaotic. So Spare Ribs was beautifully designed by a woman called Kate Hepburn. Beautiful tight face. In comparison to the underground, it was quite serious.

And we did have articles in like spare parts, how to change tyres, how to put out your shelves. We had things about how to make your own cosmetics, how to avoid the fashion trap. We had fiction. We had a men's column for a while. That got dropped, didn't it? It did get dropped. All of these things did. And we had cooking, you know, make your own picnics. But all those things got dropped. But we thought when Marsha said just now, this would be something that would be for

women everywhere. We tried in a small way to model ourselves on the kind of fare that women were used to, but give it a feminist, you can do it. I mean, I do think it's a good idea. Everyone should be able to put up a shelf regardless. That was how it came out. And we had pictures of women on the cover. Again, they weren't made up. They weren't stylised. They definitely weren't wearing a white dress and getting married. Carmen, for you and book publishing,

do you think if you hadn't published the women that you were publishing, I know you also did a classic series, do you think they would never have been found? I think certainly the classics would not have been found because they'd been around forever but I'd have to be rather tedious about book publishing to explain why that happened because if you think about the paperback revolution, it started by Alan Lane and also I worked with all the paperback publishers of my generation, the great ones, but they were all men and they hadn't read the books I had read, my mother had read, and I knew those books existed.

And particularly, dare I say it, Rosamund Lehmann's The Weather in the Streets, because every single friend I had who ever got pregnant had to get a second-hand copy of The Weather in the Streets because it was about an abortion. And that particular book went up and down all around my circle of friends who got themselves into tricky situations before the abortion laws changed. So I knew about books that they didn't know about. So that part of the list I don't think would have happened.

The other part, I think, is the concentration on women's writing and the concentration on their thinking. And also, I think, more important than all those things was the essential concern that I always had to work for writers, because it's only writers who change the way we think and can help us achieve social change. We're getting a lot of messages come in, Carmen, from our listeners about that label difficult woman. I know you may be quite familiar with it. It may have been, I don't know, dangled in your direction. I'm not so sure I didn't originate it. I think I did. Carmen, have you got any advice, maybe even especially for our younger listeners,

of which we have many, about how you do deal with that or own it if you are occasionally described like that or maybe very often? Could we delete occasionally? To be absolutely honest, I think that I look forward to a generation where people like me aren't told they're difficult. They can be told they're eccentric and bad-tempered, but difficult, difficult, difficult, difficult. That is still going on. And of the many chores I would pass on to the next generation, I think we should start a complete column called Difficult Men in every

single newspaper in the world. We could actually start with Boris Erzov yesterday, couldn't we? Difficult men. But it's difficult women that you get laboured with and you just have to put up with it. I just think all women should be difficult women, because if you're not a difficult woman, that means you're putting up with the status quo. And quite frankly, women are still not equal. We don't have childcare. I see it in one of my jobs, I chair Feeding Britain. Women are the ones who go without meals, who are scrounging around looking for food, who are bearing the brunt end of this. And quite frankly, if we're not difficult, we won't get change. So bring on the difficult women.

I want to be a difficult woman for the rest of my life. Well, also, I mean, you are in the, I should say, you're a cross-branch peer in the House of Lords. You're close to the seat of power in politics and holding to account in a different way. But when Spare Rib did come out, I mean, you were written about at the time. I was looking through what some of the other magazines and newspapers said.

I mean, it was extraordinary, some of it, wasn't it, Rosie? Well, I feel that it was very patronising on the whole. It's quite sexualising. Sexualising and patronising. And I think the patronising is a very interesting thing. And I look back on 50 years later, and that's because men didn't take women seriously and they never thought women would mean what happened to us

would mean they had to change their life and if you trace it through you get to now the hatred the incels all those things because while being a woman has become extraordinarily different and wider being a man is still a very narrow concept and we're paying the price of that in a lot of very unpleasant stuff. Marsha did you want to add anything to that? Well, I would say that the first Women's National Conference that Rosie and I went to, they took a vote not to speak to the media because it was so hostile to the women's movement. And when you look back, the very first issue had pieces that really resonate right through to today. We had a feature, for instance, on a women's group in Chiswick.

They'd set up a house. They'd got it from the council for a peppercorn rent, they fixed it up themselves, and what did they find? They found women coming into the house escaping violence at home. And this was a really secret thing then, and if anyone talked about it in public, women were blamed. Then later on, maybe around 1976, women started talking about being frightened of walking in the streets. So we had Reclaim the Night marked us all around the country. And then also women

started taking self-defence casts. So I mean, actually, each feature in that early Spare Rib, you could see a thread continuing. That was Marsha Rowe, Rosie Boycott and Carmen Kalil. And Kat got in touch to say, I subscribed to Spare Rib from 1976 when I was 15, growing up in a small town. I had to order it to our only WH Smiths and collect it from a filing cabinet in stores as it wasn't stocked.

And Sue says, I have very happy memories of buying Spare Rib and feeling very radical. But more than anything, I met my now late partner via their columns. A friend and I set up a group to discuss labelling Don't worry, Suze. There might not be a spare rib, but there's still a woman's hour. Now, it's always a bit of a moment when a popular book comes to screen.

That's happened with an adaptation of Dolly Alderton's memoir Everything I Know About Love, a seven-part TV series for BBC One. Set in a 2012 London house share, it tells the story of four women as they begin working and their adult life, a deep dive into bad dates, heartaches and humiliations. The show's central love story is actually between childhood best friends Maggie and Birdie, but can platonic love survive romantic love as we grow up? Emma spoke to the writer and Sunday Times agony aunt Dolly Alderton last week,

just before the show's premiere, and started by asking her about the story, and now the TV adaptation of her memoir. It's the love story of two best female friends told with the same lens as you would tell traditionally a romantic comedy between men and women and it's also a raucous girl gang show about a group of four friends who moved to London at the same time and move into a house share and it's also a coming of age friends who moved to London at the same time and move into a house share. And it's also a coming of age story about our protagonist, about your 20s and working out what kind of woman you want to be. Why did you centre it around female friendship?

Because if you had just seen the cover of the book or maybe the advertising for this, you might think, oh, the writer is trying to tell me, you know, another tale here about somebody who's single trying to find their loved one. Well, do you know what, the memoir that I wrote ended up being this kind of ode to female friendship, which I'd never set out to do. I thought I was writing about my dating adventures. And then I got to the final chapter of the memoir. And I looked back and I was like, what is this book about? What am I trying to say here? And there was only one thing that was constant in every chapter of my 20s. And in chapter of the book and it was this ensemble of women that were around me that were there for the high days and the low days who I'd lived with and worked out womanhood with so it kind of accidentally became this huge love story

about my friends it was a story about falling in love but it was about falling in love with these this gang of girls so and it felt like I was gonna say the right direction the right direction for it but is there is it based because there's one girl in particular birdie in in the book in the now tv adaptation is that person real are they in your life or are they an amalgam birdie is loosely based on the girl i call folly who is folly my best friend in real life who write the book and maggie the protagonist is loosely based on me and And then two other characters, Nell and Amara, are an amalgamation and an imagination of two other girls. What do the real versions of these people make of themselves? Have they been able to see a preview,

especially of the TV side of things, not just the writing side? No. I mean, Farley's coming to the premiere with me tonight, so let's hope she doesn't have a problem with it. That friendship, weley's coming to the premiere with me tonight. So let's hope she doesn't have a problem with it. That friendship. Yep, that friendship. We'll see how sturdy it goes. We'll see. Nothing to test it like this sort of thing. How worried were you? I know you've been very involved with the production of the TV side of things,

but how worried were you about that going from the page to the screen? Because how you imagine something and the inferences and the influences are subtly different and those nuances. Yes, what I learned about taking something from a script to screen is that there is always going to be a gap between what you imagined exactly and what ends up being on screen. And a lot of the time that's because of budget, that's because of health and safety. Sexy things like that. Lots of practical reasons that's because of budget that's because of health and safety that's because sexy things like that lots of practical reasons that martin scorsese never talks about in interviews making a tv show is so different to writing a book it's not even it takes a village it takes a county it takes a country to make a tv show do you like the tv show you've made yes i do is it any good emma you can't ask me that yeah i can i'm a woman you know what we're like i'll basically just sit here and say it's rubbish it's good it's good i do really like it because there could be a

gap couldn't there there could be a gap between you know what you wrote as you say and what you what you get and how you feel about it and i think it's important to to ask you know what you wrote as you say and what you what you get and how you feel about it and I think it's important to to ask you know because also you you obviously the book did very well was well received a warm reception and then you're going to get tv reviews you're going to get the the critics with their take how are you how are you doing about that do you know what I feel okay because it's such a collaborative effort basically what, what I'm saying is, if it gets panned, it's not just my fault. It's all of our fault.

So that feels good. Yeah, well, listen, I'm sure we're not going to be in that space. But, you know, again, you're releasing something very personal, aren't you? And you really wanted to have, and you have had, an impact on how those love stories are told. I wonder, because you released this book, 28, and you're had an impact on how those love stories are told. I wonder, because you released this book, 28, and you're now 33. Is that right? Yes. Yeah.

And has it changed again, what you feel and think about love and friendship in that time? Totally. I wrote that book when I was 28. And I was very certain about love and friendship then, particularly friendship. The end of the book is a very certain young woman being very certain about this manifesto of friendship, which is friendship should take precedent above every relationship in your life. And I now look back on that as like an incredibly sweet, naive way of looking at things now that I'm in this decade of life where there are all these other obstacles in the way of hanging out with your friend on a Wednesday night so yeah I think that that definitely the idea of friendship and love I think is in flux for your whole life isn't it it is and I think you know of course it's not just if you get a significant other that you then

maybe have to you know prioritize differently it's then what your friends are doing as well like you say you know you might not get shacked up or get in a situation with someone else, but there's lots of changes that feel like loss, don't they, as you get older? Totally. That's such a good way of putting it. The thing is, is with everything you acquire in your own life, it can potentially be, render a loss in your friendship.

You know, when someone gets a huge promotion and they're at the office twice as much when someone gets one baby two babies three babies when someone has an ill parent they have to look after you know the easiest place for collateral damage is friendship that's the easiest place to kind of cut the hours and the hours will be cut there's just no way of avoiding that so the the question and the quest I think for the rest of our lives if you if you are committed to this this importance of friendship then I think it's about how do you retain that closeness without it being as many contact hours yeah I like I like that contact hours in the office of friendship don't cut those

hours working from home with friends uh you do also say everything i know about love um but also parties jobs dates life you also work as an agony aunt uh how how's your advice giving across across those areas how are you finding that position and you do that for the sunday times yeah i do you know i'm i'm confident emma in saying that i am the most fabulous advice giver. And I never take any of the advice I'm handing out. And that's, I think, what is, that's why I think an imperfect agony aunt is a really important thing. Because when I'm writing those replies to people every week, so often I'm not just replying to those people.

I'm writing it to myself. It is the way that I process problems and I process my own anxieties. When I'm telling someone in a very didactic way how they should solve something or the decisions they should make, it is often me speaking in frustration to myself. And that's what I love.

It's therapy for myself as I hope it is for other people. The most common question that you get as an agony aunt, is there one that comes up again and again and again? Emma, it's so depressing. The inbox every week is the same questions and it's always about useless men. And it always makes me feel so depressed about being heterosexual. It's always, I think my boyfriend's cheating. A boy has ghosted me. There's also actually in all seriousness, there's a lot of biological anxiety from women in their early 30s. I get a lot. That's the most constant email I think is women petrified they're not going to meet someone and have kids with someone. Which again is linked, I suppose, to relationship concerns as well. Exactly. Exactly. I said to my editor the other day, it would be so fabulous if one week I got an email from a woman saying, dear Dolly, I've just been offered a job at NASA,

and I don't know whether to take it or not. That was Dolly Alderton talking about her new BBC TV series, Everything I Know About Love, showing on BBC One and available on iPlayer. And you can read an article all about female friendship on our website. And of course, go to our website if you'd like to email us about anything you might want us to discuss on the show. That's it from me. Have a great rest of your weekend. Join Emma on Monday. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.