Woman's Hour - Dame Emma Thompson. Brandon Lewis MP. Dame Paula Rego. Childcare.

Episode Date: June 9, 2022

Oscar-winner Dame Emma Thompson has graced our screens for four decades. As an actor, she's played all kinds of women, from her role as Elinor Dashwood in Sense and Sensibility to her heart-breaking Karen in Christmas favourite, Love Actually. But now she's taking on a different kind of acting role. Good Luck To You, Leo Grande tells the story of Nancy Stokes, a 55-year-old widow (played by Thompson) who decides to hire a significantly younger male sex worker, played by the Irish actor, Daryl McCormack. She joins Emma to talk about women's pleasure, full frontal nudity and the #MeToo movement. Abortion was decriminalised in Northern Ireland two and half years ago, following a vote by MPs in Westminster. But despite this significant intervention, abortion in the province has been called “a post-code lottery,” with some women still travelling to England to get one. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Brandon Lewis, has stepped in and last month he announced new regulations to speed things up. He's on record saying, "I'm determined to ensure that women and girls in Northern Ireland can access abortion services in the same way as those living in the rest of the UK." But what might slow down progress is the stalemate that Stormont is in once again, after elections last month, and the political tension around the Northern Ireland protocol. So, just how quickly will abortion become more available in Northern Ireland? Emma Barnett talks to Brandon Lewis.The renowned Portuguese-British artist Dame Paula Rego has died at the age of 87. Last year she had a retrospective exhibition at Tate Britain and over a six-decade career she was known for characters inspired by fiction, fairy tales and her own life, and for focussing on women's rights. Emma talks to the Director of the Tate, Maria Balshaw and the art historian Lisa Modiano.If you’re a woman and you have a baby it’s going to cost you £70,000 in lost earnings over the next decade according to new research from the Think Tank, the Social Market Foundation, which is setting up a cross party commission to tackle the spiralling costs of childcare. Emma talks to Director of the Foundation James Kirkup about its findings, and one woman working as a senior mental health nurse who says she takes home just £100 a week after childcare costs. We also get the view of the Early Years Alliance, a charity that represents child minders, nurseries and pre-schools. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Alison Carter Photo credit: Nick Wall © GoodLuckLeoLimited

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome. What a treat for you today. First of all, Dame Emma Thompson is on the programme and we go there. Well, everywhere, because of her new film, something I will get to in more detail. But in what I suspect will become an iconic scene at the end of her new film, something I will get to in more detail. But in what I suspect will become an iconic scene,

at the end of this new film, Emma Thompson, for the first time in her career, and she's 63, stands fully naked in front of the mirror, and her character, a retired and widowed religious studies teacher and mother of two, looks quietly pleased. Having started the film looking at herself in the mirror and not liking what she saw, being incredibly awkward and doing that thing that women often do, you know, repositioning a leg, sucking in the tummy, looking on the side and just generally looking worried, it's quite the transformation. And in our conversation, which I recorded yesterday,

Emma Thompson talks about whether it is possible to rewire women's brains to like what they see in the mirror, especially when naked. Now, of course, many of you will, but maybe that's changed also over the years or at different points in your life. Let me ask you, how do you feel when you look at yourself in the mirror, naked or clothed? Do you even do it? Do you like what you see? Or do you have a different response? Text me here at Women's Hour. I'm always wanting to hear what you have to say. 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or email me through the Women's Hour website. Also on today's programme, the Secretary

of State for Northern Ireland, Brandon Lewis, on wrestling control from the powers that be in Northern Ireland so that women and girls can stop having to travel to other places like England to access abortion services. We pay tribute to the renowned Portuguese-British artist Dame Paula Rigo, who died yesterday at the age of 87, who amongst many things, had a major impact with a series of paintings set in backstreet abortion clinics in Portugal. And trying to solve the perennial problem for politicians, blighting women's chances to fulfil their earning potential. All that to come.

But first, Oscar winner Dame Emma Thompson has graced our screens for four decades. And as an actor actor she's played all kinds of women from her role as Eleanor Dashwood in Sense and Sensibility to her heartbreaking Karen in Christmas favourite Love Actually. But now she's taking on a very different kind of role. Good Luck to You Leo Grand tells the story of Nancy Stokes played by Emma, a 55 year old widow who has never had an orgasm. After the death of her husband, she decides to do something about it. She decides to hire a significantly

younger sex worker, played by the Irish actor Daryl McCormack. You may know him from Peaky Blinders. The film, written by the author and comedian Katie Brand, focuses almost exclusively on these two characters in a hotel room talking and other things too and it features Emma's first ever nude scenes. I began by asking Dame Emma Thompson what drew her to the part. The unbelievable script written by my friend Katie Brand who sent it to me with one of those oh I'm not sure I sure, I don't know. Anyway, have a read of it. I had you in mind and I read it and just thought it was extraordinary. And Katie had just imagined these meetings from the moment that the first knock on the door happened

and written this incredible story, this examination of these two people who slowly uncover one another yes and and i think at the heart of it is pleasure female pleasure and what it can give to you and what it can bring to your life and and we still don't really have that and a lot of women don't prioritize that or feel it's their right to to want that and have it? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I was asked recently whether that was a generational thing. But I think, whether it is or not, it's persisted through the generations. I mean, I can remember my grandmother or my paternal grandmother saying

that she felt sorry for men because they had to have sex, they had to do it, and that was a sad thing. So she had clearly, she told me when she was 88 she clearly had never ever had any sexual pleasure of any kind that she had endured it in a sort of what we might term Victorian Wales and that's a bit unfair because I think some of the Victorians had quite a good time but anyway only the men, obviously. But then my mum, who was Presbyterian, I think maybe had only my father was her lover. I think they had a better time because it just was slightly more acceptable. And also they worked in the theatre. So that was a it was a little bit freer and more bohemian and so the sexual pleasure was not necessarily discussed but uh sex homosexuality different kinds of sexuality were a

little bit more on display um then my generation i think were i think we were bullied actually in lots of ways all i can remember is Cosmo appearing to suggest that if you weren't permanently in a pink state of breathless ecstasy there was something wrong with you you know the orgasm was always on the front of cover of every Cosmo and I thought what is why is this so important and then my daughter's generation some of them I think actually have a good deal of leeway and elbow room and discussion about it and free amores. But not all of them. I have also had discussions with young friends of my daughter in their 20s that have revealed in their groups, you know, lots of women who haven't had orgasms haven't experienced pleasure

feel that they have to perform their pleasure feel that they can't be honest about whether they've actually enjoyed themselves or not think that somehow blokes have got to be taken care of in some way so you can't offend a chap by suggesting that whatever he's doing isn't much fun. Or say just a little bit to the left. Yeah, exactly. Well, because I think what's extraordinary about this is it's going to be, as you will have already found out, I'm sure, not uncommon that some women have not had an orgasm, as you've mentioned, whatever age. And the idea of men accepting that and not being able to,

of course, there will be some men for various reasons or conditions, but the idea that women, because, of course, you can pleasure yourself. The idea that women have not reached that point in some way in their lives. There's a sadness that you display in the film and anxiety, of course, but a sadness as well. And, of course, you mentioned religion as well there briefly, but what the message has been around masturbation and women and pleasure. I don't want to spoil anything, but that's a process, shall we say, covered in the film as well. That's also something

I'm sure you've thought about during this. Of course, of course. We have, for all sorts of peculiar, but I mean, very powerful cultural reasons, managed to place in many ways beyond the pale. One of the only things that's not only free, but really, really good for us, healthy, both emotionally and physically, really good for our bodies. These feelings, orgasm or pleasure, sexual pleasure of any kind, is actually very, very good for us. And it's peculiar because we are obsessed with other forms of pleasure. I mean, we'll take our pleasure of eating or drinking to the most insane extremes. But we're very loathe to discuss, I think, in any real honest way, and especially with the young and with our children, what and where sexual pleasure really does reside in the body

as well as in the heart and the mind. We don't talk about that. It's been so industrialised in order to sell back to us. We discover these things and then they're taken away, made into things and then sold back. And I think that's a tragedy and a great loss to us all. And I think it's also the cause of huge difficulties and problems and at the root of a great deal of violence, too. Well, another thing to pick up on, though, which doesn't seem to be getting any better is how women feel about their own bodies

and for those of us who have had the uh the chance to see the film before it's out and and see right to the end there is this scene which i think will become iconic of you standing in front of the mirror completely naked after sex not looking that upset with yourself. You know, it's safe to sort of having a bit of a look at, you know, what your body's done, where it's at. There was so much without any words that I could get from that. And I really felt what a lovely moment. How did it feel doing that? It's so interesting that you should pick up on how she's looking at herself.

Because I thought, how am I going to stand? How would Nancy, how when she's's there what's she going to do what's happened to her because the one thing she can't do is look at her body in the way that she looked at it before that is to say with judgment she's got to be at ease in some way and I worked out how I wanted to stand very relaxed with a knee crooked like the picture of Eve that Cranach did in the Adam and Eve the beautiful medieval pictures of Eve just standing there with one leg slightly bent looking very relaxed I don't think that any woman I know stands in front of a mirror well well, they don't by choice anyway, I certainly don't look at myself in the mirror, but if they do, they're constantly tucking or tweaking or it's impossible. But Nancy, through the good offices of this remarkable and compassionate and humane sex worker, Leo, has reached a different point. She's looking at her body

with a kind of wonder and an excitement because she thinks, this is mine now. I can feel that pleasure again if I want to. And I don't have to make much of an effort. I don't have to change myself. I don't have to make myself acceptable. I don't even have to find a man or a woman or another partner. I can have that pleasure it's mine now and she therefore is looking at herself with a I suppose a kind of ownership and and and an acceptance that I think is very very rare when I talk to women and as I do literally all the time um and they all say the same thing no of course no I don't like this I't like this. I don't like that. I don't like the other. No matter what their bodies are like, we're all the same.

We are all dissatisfied. And I think that's a waste of our passion, our energy, our time, our money, and our purpose in life. Have you found a way, having done that scene now, you say you don't look at yourself really in the mirror but to feel differently perhaps or change that is it is it something you think you can rewire? No I think that I was brought up with it from a very early age I think that the brainwashing started when I was very young I think that rewiring is a very good

way of putting it because I think those neural pathways have been carved far too deeply into my psyche and that they were carved very early. And if you talk to mothers now, they will tell you that most children, female children, sometimes also male children and trans children, that's a different issue probably but actually it all connects up with not being satisfied with your body and mostly to do with losing weight with being thin particularly with girl children and that's a great great worry because of all of the great dangers that are out there for women and the mental health issues surrounding these obsessions and the fact that somehow the iconography simply hasn't changed. I know there are some campaigns that are trying to change it, Dove and all of that, and even Victoria's Secret. But nonetheless, the iconography hasn't changed enough

or for long enough to really affect the young. And it is the young for whom I feel the deepest concern. I mean, it's too late for me. But I deeply resent the fact that my, my attitude to my body and my comfort in my body was taken from me. I mean, I think literally taken away from me when I was very young. And I was never able to get it back. And I worked in a profession where I was constantly told that I didn't look right, that I didn't have the right kind of body, that all of the 99 and that will continue to remain the same and in your i mean not in radio so much but certainly in television presenting you know the issues remain the same well i mean and yet here you are in your 60s standing there naked having taken this role having been offered this role written by a woman as you say casey brand and it is it's quite a

moment and um i don't wish to lower the tone is it's quite a moment and I don't wish to lower the tone maybe it's raising the tone but can we can we just take a moment to talk about pubes Emma Thompson yes let's go go on it because you know this is the thing you look at the the information that seems to be out there I mean there are various studies but you know a lot of people a lot of women get rid of them that's what they're also taught to do you are standing there um i'm sure some people you know might zoom in and have a good look around once they see a famous person naked i didn't do that but what's your view on that and how did you feel kind of preparing to be fully naked did you did you change anything did you i don't know go to go anywhere did i shave i yeah i don't know, go anywhere? Did I shave? I don't know. What was the plan?

It didn't encourage me to do that. It didn't encourage me to do that. But you're so right. I greatly regret the demise of the full bush. I think it's a great shame. It's just sad, isn't it? And men too. I mean, and that, can you imagine the pain?

So I don't know. I mean, I did once do the full thing years and years and years ago. But really, I regret it because I've never quite grown back to my liking. And but that's also getting getting old. But the whole thing of the we've got to get rid of all our hair is odd, isn't it? And probably not very healthy. I haven't shaved under my arms for a long, long time, but I do still shave my legs. I've just got into that habit. And when they grow back in my hairs, I'm not entirely comfortable. And I go, well, that's brainwashing as well. No, no, it completely is. I mean, there are a lot of taboos, I have to say, in this film.

Hearing you talk about the demise of the bush is a personal highlight now of one's career. I'm sure we'll prompt many messages from our listeners. I'm sure it will, yeah. We'll have a whole discussion. I always like to ask them what they're thinking while we're talking. But I did also want to come to something else, which I was watching it with my husband and he said,

oh God, when your character said, nothing to do with the sex, my son's a bit boring. What if you don't end up getting on with your child? This is an interesting terrain. So nothing to do with the sex or the pleasure. She feels she can be honest with this new person that she's met in her life how did you feel about that because the taboo of saying what you really think of your child to a stranger enormous i mean i think that's one of the biggest taboos that she the boundaries that she crosses is she says

now my children i i don't know if I'd known she says that she describes them as like a ball and chase a bit if I'd known I might not have had them and when he says what will you have done she said well I don't know but I could have done something else and so revealing her her irritation and her boredom but also her resentment and her jealousy I think that is a very generational thing and I know mothers of my mother's generation who didn't work and didn't do what they wanted to do because what was expected of them when they got married was to have children and because women's work was was still very much in the you really got to want to do this and you've got and and it will make you somehow

unnatural and brutal in some way and brutalize your children if you choose work ever over your children that was very much there and I think huge numbers of women suffered greatly and their children suffered as well I know many children children whose mothers should not have had children, should have done what they wanted to do, big careers in whatever. It could be, you know, big things that they wanted to do that they couldn't do because it just wasn't done or they didn't have the money. You can't look after, I mean, the aristocracy is a whole other thing,

nannies here and there. So that's a huge number and leo reacts very very powerfully to that you know i mean he finds it funny but he also is you know saddened we we expect mothers somehow to always love and find their children marvelous but it's not always the case is it and that's something we don't talk about very much at all, because it's very unpleasant to imagine that one's mother might not love one in the way that you want them to love, and also might have preferred to do something else. Yes. Well, it is a big taboo, and it's in there, amongst many other things.

Among many. It is a big taboo and it's in there amongst many other things. Well, I've caught you, Emma, if I may. You know, you have been very vociferous about some of your views over the years and you've talked very candidly and your honesty is always appreciated. And I remember you talking a few different occasions about the Me Too movement in the past. For instance, in an interview with the L.A LA Times, you said, get a grip, guys. It's not rocket science. You just behave with respect and courtesy. Now shut up and get on with it. To quote one of your remarks.

And I was just minded, of course, the fact last week Amber Heard, a jury found Amber Heard defamed her ex-husband, Johnny Depp, in a newspaper article in which she claimed she was victim of domestic abuse. Johnny Depp denied that and was awarded $15 million. And off the back of that court case, many have spoken, you know, not necessarily going into the details of the case, but about the Me Too movement being over, you know, that's the end of it now. And there's, you know, thoughts about whether women will go

back to not saying things when there are certain issues. I just wonder whether you think it has set it back and where you come out of that because of course the coverage of it's been you know back to back wall to wall. I haven't followed it there's so much going on at the moment and one of the things it's very difficult to do is judge an issue like the issues that the Me Too movement brings to the fore when you're dealing with very very very famous people. It's a whole other thing. So actually, one of the great issues to do with that case is fame and how people who are famous are treated differently and viewed differently. I would say that the Me Too movement is not going to be derailed by that.

But in order for it not to be derailed, we just have to keep on talking. We have to keep on talking and refuse to allow it to be derailed by a case where two very, very, very famous people, which has been blown out of all remote human proportion by the press and by that's something that can't be avoided. But, you know, a case where the two protagonists are that famous is not representative. And it's just very important to remember that, that this movement, which is about, it is just about human kindness and it's just so simple, really, and has been made so complicated, cannot and will not be derailed by one case.

And that's not going to happen, actually. It simply won't happen. Dame Emma Thompson there. And, of course, what prompted that whole conversation is her appearance in a new film Good Luck to You, Leo Grand which is in cinemas in the UK from the 17th of June

at the start of that conversation I asked you about an iconic scene in the film what I think will become iconic certainly is her standing, Emma Thompson as her character Nancy in front of a full length mirror naked and how her reactions change from the beginning of the film to the end and whether you do that how you feel

you are being very generous indeed and getting in touch to tell me I hate looking at myself in the mirror I've always thought throughout my life as soon as I realized I was ugly I now don't even own a full-length mirror another one as I've got older'm 42 now, I've definitely learned to love my body more and embrace my many curves and flaws in quotation marks. I'm now pregnant and I'm frankly in wonder at my changing body and the amazing things it's doing to grow my baby. Women's bodies are wonderful

and I wish we could all learn to accept ourselves as we are rather than trying to conform to what we think we should be. That's from Isabel listening. Good morning to you. Emma, just listening to Woman's Hour, my body's in better shape now. I'm 66. I've had two children.

I've got better love life now and sex. It's amazing, says Susie. It's making me look forward to 66. I'm 43 and I can look at myself in the mirror, but not without my eyes filling up. I've gained a bit of weight in the last couple of years and I have been very poorly with anorexia as a teen, and being able to look at myself and be fine with what I see,

well, it's incredible. And sometimes it's overwhelming, knowing how the mind can recover from being in such a dark place. When I look in the mirror, I see a woman, reads this message, who's survived several operations and has the scars to show for it. I have no breasts, so two curving scars instead. And lower down, I had a total hysterectomy,

so another smiley scar, as you put it. I'm 68, says Lynn, and would show my scars to anyone having to go through such operations who might be curious and for whom this would help. But Emma is very brave, letting the general public see her naked. Lynn listening in Scotland. And so they carry on.

Brilliant messages coming in. How you feel, what you look at. I mean, there's just another brilliant one here from Kay. She's listening in Hackney in London. Good morning to you. I love this. I used to look in the mirror and see myself. Then I started to see my mum and now I see my grandmother.

It always feels like she's saying hello and I like it. I like it too. That's a beautiful description. Thank you. Keep them coming in on 84844. Now abortion was decriminalised in Northern Ireland two and a half years ago following a vote by MPs in Westminster. I'm sure you may remember. But despite this significant intervention, abortion in Northern Ireland has been called a postcode lottery with some women still travelling to England and elsewhere to access those services. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Brandon Lewis, has stepped in and last month he announced new regulations to speed things up.

He's on record saying, I'm determined to ensure that women and girls in Northern Ireland can access abortion services in the same way as those living in the rest of the UK. But what might slow down progress is the stalemate that Stormont is in once again after elections last month, the political tension around the Northern Ireland Protocol, and how the government in Westminster is handling it, all of which I put to Brandon Lewis. So how quickly will abortion become more available in Northern Ireland? I spoke to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland just before I came on air this morning, and I began by asking him whether women and girls from Northern

Ireland still travelling to England to have abortions should be doing so. No. Why are they? Well, the current situation is not acceptable. So health is devolved in Northern Ireland. And sadly, the Northern Ireland Executive has not commissioned these services. The Department of Health here has not commissioned them. And we've been working with them over the last year or so. There is a legal duty now in the UK government following the 2019 Act. But we've been working with the Department of Health here. They've not supplied that so far.

And that's why over the last few weeks, we've taken some further action to be able to make sure we can get these services provided because we've said, look, as much as this is a devolved area and somebody believes in devolution, I'd like to see this delivered locally. But ultimately, we have a, not just a legal duty,

but a moral duty to make sure women and girls here in Northern Ireland can access good quality healthcare in the same way that people across the UK can. What do you suspect is going on? I know there's been a pandemic, but 2019 is certainly some time. Oh, yes. And look, the pandemic is no excuse for the failure to provide services here. This has just been a refusal by the executive in Northern Ireland and the parties here in Northern Ireland to provide these services to women and girls.

There's no two ways about it. Because I think some of the ministers involved in this fundamentally want to end abortion, don't want to have access for women and girls. And I have to say, it's not just about abortion. For me, this is about access to good quality health care to make sure that people who need support get the right quality support. And not just the health support purely in the abortion services, but the whole support package that goes around that. Because obviously for some people where they need an abortion and need that medical care care they also need the support because of the situation they may be going through so i think it's fundamentally wrong that that's not been provided we've got a statement i should say from the northern ireland health minister robin swan yesterday it reads the secretary of

state's written statement and talking about yourself and new regulations are being given careful consideration by my department i I'm awaiting further legal advice, including with regard to a Northern Ireland Minister of Health's legal responsibilities under the Northern Ireland Ministerial Code. I'm trying to diagnose what that actually means. I mean, you're just not being listened to, are you? No, I think the Department of Health, I'm afraid the Minister for Health here,

is just fundamentally doesn't want to provide these services. That's quite clear. He's had plenty of time to do it, you know, a couple of years in reality. So what we've done now is, and there's been an excuse used here as well locally over the last six months or so, which is that the executive needs to come together

and they couldn't get, it's not to do with the executive not functioning, because before there was no First Minister, they were making arguments that the executive couldn't discuss this cross community and various different things when actually this is a department of health issue so what we've done i took some powers uh a few weeks ago outline we're going to take two powers one is i've taken away i'm taking away the need for the executive here to make this decision so the department of health can do it so i don't know why he needs further legal advice but you know that's i think that's just an excuse to not take action at the moment.

The second power that we're taking is the power for me as Secretary of State to legally be able to commission services directly in the way that I could if I was a Northern Ireland Assembly member and minister. So that will allow us to do it. At the same time, I've put together now a team at the NIO, the Northern Ireland Office, of experts in how to commission services and what they should be, because obviously this is a medical thing. It's not something my department do. So we've brought in some experts who do know what that is so that we can directly commission services.

So the Department of Health don't take this forward. How quickly could you do it? I've said that I think they've had more than long enough now. So while I'm putting that team together, while they're working out exactly what we need to do to commission the correct services, I'll give the Department of Health a few more weeks to do that. But I do mean literally a couple of weeks. And then we in the Northern Ireland office as UK government, we will commission these services. Now, I can't give you a fixed time frame of how quickly they'll come through because I need to let the team who are the experts in this work out what we need to commission and then to actually commission it but we will be

looking to move as quickly as we can I've seen even just in the last few weeks I've met some ladies who have been through the most dreadful abhorrent situations that cannot continue I think it's morally bankrupt to not make sure that people here in Northern Ireland have access to these services so regardless of devolution you will be able to wrestle control through the powers that you have and within weeks, you hope, have these services commissioned? Within weeks, we will

take the ability to deliver those services. I can't commit to how quickly the services themselves will be in place because obviously we've got to actually commission them and get them up and running. But roughly... As quickly as we can can within months as opposed to another year oh yes oh no yeah absolutely i'll be very yeah i'll be i will be looking to move on this really really in this area of health care and medicine time is of the essence if you are absolutely

seeking this sort of help because i was trying to understand if you are uh in a situation where you do need an abortion and you're not able to access one, if you would be able to, you know, women will be making the decision about whether they have to make a journey or not. And they're probably going to listen to this and think, well, how long is it going to be till I have that service? But you're saying you can't quite say yet. Correct. And I wish I could, but obviously I've got to make sure that the experts, the medical experts, are able to commission the correct services. As I say, I want to move really quickly on this.

I met people just a few weeks ago, actually, who have been through the situation of needing to get that early intervention. And actually, the way the system was working here, even where they could get some level of service a while ago, the way the system worked here meant by the time they got a response, they were already past the point where early intervention technically could have helped them. So that kind of situation cannot continue. It's not fair on the people who need these services. And in case funding is used as an excuse, are you going to change how it's funded?

You've previously insisted Stormont has the funding to do it. But what about Westminster coughing up the cash? Is that another block potentially? Well, the money to put together the commission of services is something we're doing through the Northern Ireland office. But the commission of the services themselves, absolutely Stormont has the money to do this. And let me be really clear about this. Not only have I this year secured for Stormont's executive the biggest funding settlement they've had since devolution began. We've gotten that extra money after a couple of years running of underspent. You know, hundreds of millions of pounds a year here in Northern Ireland are underspent.

So there is surpluses every year. So the departments and Stormont itself absolutely has the money to deliver these services. No question about that. This has just been a lack of desire to actually get the job done. And that isn't good enough. At the same time, you've got to be thinking about the Northern Ireland Protocol. Legislation which would effectively override the Brexit agreement is due very shortly. Reports saying on Monday. Is that right?

We've said in a statement just a couple of weeks ago that the Foreign Secretary made to Parliament that if we were unable to, which we have been so far, unable to get a negotiated position with the EU, that we would take action to legislate. As I say, the Foreign Secretary outlined that a short while ago. We will be looking to lay legislation to resolve the issues with the protocol. This is about fixing the problem so that people across and businesses across Northern Ireland can get access to the products they need. There's not a single... That's your view on it. Of course, the protocol as it is.

That's your view on it. Of course, some are incredibly uncomfortable about the idea of overriding an international treaty and provoking feelings of lack of trust and all of that. Is it on Monday that that's happening? Well, I'm not going to set out timeframes at the moment. We are looking to introduce legislation. We think we do need to do that fairly swiftly because we're not seeing any flexibility from the EU about the implementation processes. We will do this within the law. We're also very clear, and I think one of the things that gets forgotten here, all the political parties in Northern Ireland agree that the protocol

isn't working in its current format. And remember, the protocol is not even fully implemented yet. It is causing substantial problems for a range of sectors and businesses, and people in Northern Ireland are not able to access products from the rest of the United Kingdom in the way they should be able to do. And we need to resolve that. We need to do that in a way that actually still respects the European single market. But most importantly for us is about protecting the Belfast Good Friday Agreement

in all three of its strands. Well, we knew about that when your government wrote this original agreement and certainly co-signed it. Are you convinced? Well, hold on a minute. Let me just make a point. Well, no, no. The Good Friday Agreement isn't new. That's my point. No, it's not. But what's important and what's changed is the way the EU has sought to implement. So when the protocol was agreed, there were certain areas that were not resolved. That's why we had grace periods. They're still running. We haven't resolved those issues with the EU yet. So there's a point where if they don't agree, we've got to resolve them.

There were other areas where the protocol itself was quite vague around how you implement. And the way the EU have chosen to implement it has meant that, for example, the Jewish community technically can't even practice their religion. We cannot allow that situation to continue. Well, I could talk about that more length, but I don't have that time, I suppose, at the moment, because I'm trying to understand as you're across all of this and you're trying to deal with various aspects here. Are you convinced all those 148 MPs in your own party who voted against Boris Johnson this week are going to back that legislation whenever you do lay it, as expected on Monday? Well, yes, I hope all colleagues and I hope colleagues across the House of Parties will want to resolve this issue to make sure that people, residents of the United Kingdom, the residents of Northern Ireland, can have access to products and have the same tax benefits

as people across the UK. When the Chancellor recently set new tax levels to help people with a cost of living, we couldn't apply that in Northern Ireland because of the protocol. We need to resolve that. Yeah, but if you have this issue in your own party, and of course, there's the Prime Minister going out making big announcements about housing today. There's a huge push by your leader to get his party on side behind him. Is that not a worry as you bring forward what is to some controversial legislation, I suppose? Well, two things I'll say to that. One is, speaking to colleagues across our party over the last few weeks,

I think all colleagues want to see a resolution to the Northern Ireland Protocol. I think when they see the proposals we're looking to put forward, I would hope and I would expect colleagues to support them. They're sensible proposals. Theresa May doesn't like the idea of it does she well let's wait till we see the actual the details behind the legislation and i would hope colleagues will support that to resolve these issues for the people of northern ireland i think that is ultimately the key thing and it is quite look there is no getting away from reality this is a difficult

area and i think it is important that you know we've got to be we've got to own the reality that sometimes in government we have to make difficult decisions we make we have to make those difficult decisions to resolve substantial issues that are affecting detrimentally people in the uk and we owe it to our citizens to resolve those problems front page of the daily mail today uh liz trust the foreign secretary ousting a conservative peer as a foreign office advisor uh baroness helena morrissey pro brexit of course a former banker she She said Boris Johnson, very talented. He's just in the wrong job. What do you make of that?

I know Helen. I've dealt with Helen in the past. I've got a lot of time and respect for Helen. But this is one of those areas where we disagree. And the beauty of the Conservative Party is we're a very big, wide-open tent. That means at times we're happy to screen some things. Wide open.

But that's one of the strengths of our party. I've been chair of the Conservative Party, so I know the beauty and the strength of our party is having all of these different ideas and thoughts and people from different parts of the party. When we come together, we are powerful, we are strong, we deliver for people across the country. That's what we'll focus on doing. Look, I disagree with Helen on this. I think the Prime Minister is the right man in the job. I think he'll lead us into the next general election. As I've said before, I'm confident we will win that one. Very confident indeed.

Brandon, you've got a lot to get on with. Brandon Lewis, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. You're welcome. Thank you. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Now, the renowned Portuguese-British artist Dame Paula Rego died yesterday at the age of 87. And last year, she had a retrospective exhibition at the Tate Britain. You may have seen it. I certainly did. And over a six-decade career, she was known for characters inspired by

fiction, fairy tales, and her own life, and for focusing on women's rights. I'm joined now by the Tate's director, Maria Bullshaw, and the art historian, Lisa Modiano. Maria, I'll come to you first. Your thoughts this morning as people remember her and perhaps with specifically a view on how she reflected women's lives in her creations. I think we're all feeling desperately sad that Paula has passed, but also I think still incredibly inspired by all that she achieved across these decades. For many women, and especially, I think, women artists, she was perhaps the first and greatest example that many of us looked to. Her presence from the 50s onwards, making extraordinary paintings and drawings of women's lives, both domestically and in the world, meant that she was one of the very few role models and kind of renegade aspirational figures that we could all look to

through the 70s, 80s and into the 90s. And she has always, in her her work touched on those intimate, personal and political issues that absolutely define women's existence, but until recently, only very rarely expressed in our art and in our public discourse. I want to come to a particular series in a moment with regards, and it's also linked, of course, to our previous discussion about access to abortion. But did you meet her? Have you spoken with her? What was she like as a person? I mean, everybody that's met her absolutely, I think, adored her and was utterly bewitched by her, I think would be a very good word. She came to the opening of her exhibition at Tate Britain. She told us that for her, that was

the lifetime achievement. It was the absolute goal for her. She wanted to be alongside her peer artists, who, of course, until recent decades, were mostly men. And she always believed that she should be in the National Gallery for British Art. And so she was able to be there on the opening night of her exhibition. She worked with Elena Kripa, our curator, very closely, supported by her children, Vicky Cass and Nick in particular, who helped her realise the exhibition. And she was there surrounded by people that she had known, people that she had depicted in her paintings down the decades, and she was delighted. And even more recently, I saw her work at the heart of the Venice Biennale in the central room

in the central pavilion in Venice her son Nick was there and that placement of her work if you like at the centre of our art culture is absolutely what her work deserves and what her achievements should have been recognised by. Well, I mentioned about a particular series she's famous for, 10 large paintings set in backstreet abortion clinics in Portugal, which were a protest, a direct protest at the cruelty, as she saw it, of anti-abortion laws. The art historian Lisa Modiano is with us. Can you give us a bit of context? She started painting these in 1998, the year of a referendum on abortion in Portugal. Yes. So in 1998, a referendum was proposed in Portugal in order to put an end to the estimated 20,000 to 50,000 illegal abortions in the country, which were posing huge risks to women's physical

and mental well-being. But of course it was rejected. And so a month later, Paolo Rego starts working on this series of pastels, which is now known as her abortion series. And they depict women having backstreet abortions. And I think they're undeniably quite crude and shocking in some ways. I think there's been very few works in the history of art that depict abortion quite so graphically. But that was what Paula Rego was, you know, known for, her ability to depict these sometimes uncomfortable and taboo scenarios with this incredible sensibility. And I think these pastels are very much an example of that, because they're showing women, you know, squatting,

they're in the fetal position they're open leg they're surrounded by household objects which are highlighting uh the lack of medical equipment um and they kind of really show the reality of the situation um so they're yeah they're brutally honest depictions of actual abortion but at the same time um she depicts the women in a way where they're not meant to be pitied uh they're meant to be respected. And they're kind of this compelling request to respect a woman's right to choose. Maria, there's some description there from Lisa, but I remember seeing these in the retrospective

at the Tate last year, you know, along this wall. And, you know, regardless of sort of where you come at this from in terms of rights for abortion, access to abortion, you know, these backstreet abortions were happening. She painted what she knew, actually. We'll hear a clip of her in a moment. And they were really arresting to be able to see like that, aren't they, Maria?

Absolutely. I mean, the thing that is most characteristic, I think, of Paula's work is it hits you in the stomach and the heart, as well as posing political and intellectual questions that you answer, but that need to be answered. And I think the frankness of her portrayal of women in the most vulnerable situation speaks across the decades. Of course, we saw them last year as we were hearing in the US about, again, the challenges that are being posed to a woman's right to choose.

And so they are works that speak to the need for women's agency and the need for women's control of their own bodies. And the focus on the woman's body in all sorts of scenarios runs throughout Paula's work. And so I think they are works that don't only speak of the political moment that created them, which of course was so significant and forceful, but also speak to the challenges that women face across the generations. Dame Paula Rego had her own experiences of abortion. Here she is talking in the BBC documentary,

Paula Rego's Secrets and Stories. I had lots of abortions. Not just me, but every girl in... Mr Slade had them. And because in those days there wasn't any contraception or anything. And they didn't care, you know. The men didn't care.

So we just got knocked up. Did she draw and use her experience, Maria? A lot of her work, of course, has a kind of magical realism to it, I suppose, if you describe it like that. But was she very informed by her own experience? I mean, absolutely. And you see her paintings experiences become the theme for much of her work. So there was another extraordinary room in Tate's exhibition about her own experience of therapy and so her depicted on on the couch and in multiple different and and settings and I think that the magical realist element goes with that always being connected to and and based on women's and her experience of the world so of, of course, she draws on Snow White,

but she's informed by the Disney depiction of that fairy tale, which she herself was visually so drawn to. And when she's talking about fairy tales, she's talking about the myths and structures and the power play that so often define how women are seen culturally. Well, with regards to power, Lisa, final word to you, if I can, as an art historian, how impactful going back to the abortion series was that, do you think, in perhaps changing some minds in Portugal, because then there was another referendum?

Yeah, so they had a huge impact. The pastels, along with a series of etchings, were disseminated widely and they were shown in various newspapers around the country. And they have been credited with having swayed public opinion in Portugal. So they led to a second, well, they partially led to a second referendum in 2007, which finally legalised abortion. And I think Paula Rigo was very kind of calculated and smart in the way she drew these, because she also decided to not show the women naked, which I think was an important detail. She kind of made it clear that if she had chosen to show the women unclothed,

then less people would have engaged with the works, which were already quite graphic and hard to look at. And I'm sure some people, of course, depending on where they came at this debate, also profoundly disagreed and they had an impact as well because she wasn't afraid of, I suppose, provoking the other side of whatever she was standing on as well. But you're right to say that in terms of describing them,

that they're clothed and I understand they're actually printed in papers and, you know, lots of access before, I suppose, everyone was on their phones or social media was granted to those images. Lisa Modiano, art historian, thank you. And Tate director there, Maria Bolshaw, thank you to you. Let's just come to a problem, which I suppose in some ways could be described as a perennial, but also is on the political agenda for a range of reasons, not least a recent piece of research. Because if you're a woman and you are to have a baby, you're going to miss out on nearly £70,000 in wages over the next 10 years. That's according to new research from the cross-party think tank, the Social Market Foundation. It also found women on lower incomes face the biggest losses in earnings in their child's early years. Meanwhile, the charity Pregnant and Screwed surveyed 20,000 women this year,

and 43% of mothers told them that the cost of childcare had made them consider leaving their job, while 40% said that they had had to work fewer hours than they would like because of child care costs well the social market foundation has launched this cross-party commission off the back of that research to look into the costs of child care and what can be done let me talk first to its director james kirkup james good morning for a woman who who gave birth to a child 10 years ago what is the impact financially well um when we go back and look at this long-term survey data yeah that woman uh will have seen over the next nine ten years her cumulative earnings on average will be 66 and a half thousand pounds less than they would have been if she had not had a child and we do that by essentially comparing groups of

like for like women one of whom has a child and one doesn't so um and and that's a combination of uh it's a combination of reduced reduced hours uh because you know women you know these women work work less but also it's a it's missing out on uh on wage progression it's missing out on wage progression. It's missing out on promotion. It's not being able to do work that pays more per hour as well. Is there comparative data just because of how things have started to slightly change with men taking a greater role where men are part of this, part of family building? Is there any comparative data about impact there? We don't have exact like-for-like data, but broadly speaking, what happens when men have children, they work a little bit more and their earnings actually go up,

which, again, we don't know exactly why that is. It's partly because the household costs go up, and therefore that gives them a direct incentive to work more. There's some anecdotal evidence that says, actually, if you have in some workplaces, you have a child, you're recognised as a more senior and established figure. And therefore, you will more likely get promoted. But yeah, so that's at the point of childbirth. There's a big divergence of working experience. It comes from women and men. And with the impact on the earning potential then going back to women, is it the cost of childcare or is it women working fewer hours because of that?

How do those all play into this? We're still researching this. It's a bit of both. I mean, it's the cost of childcare in some cases means that it is just not economically viable to do an extra hour of work because the cost of the child care you have to pay for will absorb all the extra wages you get from work but also there's a flexibility point i mean the reason we started this commission for a number of reasons um it was i remember a couple of years ago pre-pandemic talking to a big employer in the retail sector who said we've got a lot of women on the shop floor who we'd like to promote. We would like to promote them to shift supervisors and floor managers and store managers.

And they often tell us, I can't do that. I can't because my current shift on the tills means I can clock off at 2 o'clock and go and collect the kids. But if I become a shift manager, I've got to be in the shop until 5. And I can't do that because there's no one else to look after the kids. So it's a combination of just the sheer cost of childcare but also not having a flexible appropriate childcare that will support we are working you're working mothers in the sort of higher earning jobs that they might well like to do elsewhere james stay with us for now because i want to bring into this ellie gibbs a senior

mental health nurse working for the NHS with two children aged one and three Ellie thank you for for using some of your precious energy to talk to us this morning a lot going on but um what about the impact of child care costs on on your earnings at the moment well um I had to change my job initially because I was working full-time over shifts, but I couldn't get a childcare placement that would cover those hours. So then I had to go, if I wanted to stay three days a week, I'd have to then drop to nine to five. And then you also lose your unsocial hour pay when you're a nurse. And we have to stretch our childcare over two facilities as well um and when I worked out the amount I would be taking as a wage and the amount that would go out now I've had two children I'm taking home

100 pounds a week in and I just that's all that's left that's all that's left um and already with the first child it was over the amount we pay for our mortgage um so I had to think really hard about whether it was worth continuing and And where have you come out on on that? I think for our family and for me I really want to keep working I want to be a nurse I want my boys to see me have a career and they thrive in the childcare that they're in yes so it's needed but if the cost of living goes up anymore, we would have to reconsider. And if I was on my own, it would be impossible. I know you do have a partner. Has he or they, tell me more, have they suffered any earning issues since you guys have decided to have a family?

They haven't. I mean, we did discuss it about whether he would drop his hours or not. And I did want to look after the children, too, but he hasn't, no. But you're going to keep going for now. I mean, of course, there's also that argument. I don't know what you think of this about. This is a very specific period, I suppose, where childcare is needed in a certain way. And soonish will be school. I don't know how you're thinking of planning about that. Yeah, I mean, you kind of think it is a short period of my life and I want to be there for this special kind of, you know, magical period up to the age of four.

But after that, I've got to think about how am I going to cover the hours from 3pm to 5pm. School hours still don't really quite work with work. No, and even if I was doing the longer hours, like we're having to try and find childcare that goes to 8pm, it still doesn't work. Ellie, thank you very much for that. Shannon Pice is also on the line

from the Early Years Alliance, a charity which represents nurseries, preschools and childminders. We're talking about also the government response here. I mean, Boris Johnson in a question and session with Mumsnet was talking about trying to help people making, trying to make this work at the moment. And the government is to consult on the idea of getting the costs of childcare down. One way to increase the ratio of how many two-year-olds, for instance, a carer can look after from four to five. What do

you make of that, Shannon? I think it's one of those policies that is designed to create positive headlines as opposed to positive change. We conducted a survey a few weeks ago of about 9,000 nurseries, preschools and childminders and they found that just two percent of respondents felt that that policy change would lead to lower costs for parents partly because a huge majority of providers would not relax their ratios because they don't feel that it would benefit children and it would be detrimental to quality partly because the minority that said they might would put the money that they would receive from that into paying back loans into giving staff wage increases and into resources and equipment for the setting i think that anybody

that knows anything about the earlier sector would know that this policy is not going to create any kind of benefit for parents whatsoever and I genuinely do believe that it is for politicians to come onto shows like this and be questioned by you and say what are you doing and they can say we're slashing red tape and when prices don't go down for parents and I have a three-year-old at nursery so I identify everything that Ellie was just saying then the blame goes on to providers they will say well we made this change they're clearly not passing what what is the way to to bring the costs down absolutely investing in the sector so we have the what's called the free child care offer we don't tend to use to say that because we don't think it's free and we think it's more than child care it's early education we have the 15 hour offer uh for two

year olds and all three and four year olds andolds and we have the 30-hour offer for three and four-year-olds working families. The government has underfunded those offers for several years. We conducted a freedom of information investigation a few years ago. It took us about two and a half years to get the government to provide us information on the funding for those policies. We have black and white documents which say

it costs two billion a year extra to fully fund these offers it's unaffordable so what we're going to do is we're going to invest about 300 million a year and we will accept and this is in black and white that prices will rise for parents so this is a policy decision this isn't an accident so it's just this mystery as to why child care costs and early education costs are so high so the way the the way to save money for parents is to invest, is to spend more, for the government to spend more. But of course, that then will have to come from somewhere else. Shannon, we'll talk again.

We've talked before from the Early Years Alliance, a charity which represents nurseries, preschools and childminders. A Department for Education spokesperson said, and of course, we'll get a minister on to talk about this, I hope, the Education Secretary has been clear that supporting families with access to childcare and early education is a priority for him.

Talk about Nadeem Zohawi. We're working with colleagues across government to look for ways to improve cost, choice and availability of childcare places. We've spent more than three and a half billion in each of the last three years to deliver free childcare offers, including 30 hours per week for working parents, which is supporting thousands of families. But you heard, of course,

also what Shannon had to say there. Thank you very much to Ellie Gibbs, a senior mental health nurse trying to make this all work at the moment with two children aged one and three, and to James Kirkup, the director of the Social Market Foundation for some of that data. Now also, we'll talk again, I'm sure, as that commission gets off the ground. And a message here. I'm 87, I live on my own, and I love my body. Perhaps it helps that I'm partially sighted. Going back to our original discussion.

Thank you for your company. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.