Woman's Hour - Dame Jenni Murray remembered, Elizabeth Moss and Kate Mara, Jane McDonald

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

We start today's programme with the sad news that Dame Jenni Murray has died. For 33 years she brought her sharp intellect, wit and passion for women's stories to generations of listeners, having conversations with some of the most famous women on the planet from Margaret Thatcher to Nicole Kidman. And yet it was her intuition for understanding women's lives - the struggles and the opportunities - and her openness about the challenges in her own life that endeared her to so many. To help us remember her, Kylie Pentelow is joined by former Woman's Hour editor Jill Burridge, who worked closely with her for many years.Emmy award-winner Elisabeth Moss, best known for Mad Men and The Handmaid’s Tale, and Kate Mara from House of Cards and The Martian join Kylie in the Woman's Hour studio. Playing best friends – they discuss their new drama series, Imperfect Women.Experts at the British Pharmacological Society (BPS) are highlighting the urgent need for clearer, evidence-based guidance on the use of medicines during pregnancy and breastfeeding. They want to draw attention to what they say are significant evidence gaps, inconsistent advice for patients, and the longstanding exclusion of pregnant and breastfeeding women from clinical trials. Kylie speaks to Dr Emma Magavern, a clinical lecturer in Clinical Pharmacology at Queen Mary University and a fellow of the BPS, and Nikki Wilson, CEO of The Maternal Mental Health Alliance, who decided to go onto antidepressants when pregnant with her second child.Singer and showbiz legend Jane McDonald talks about her new album, Living the Dream.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower. Well, we've got six new episodes for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion

without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome to the program. Thank you for your company this morning. We'll remember Dame Jenny Murray,

presenter of this program for 33 years, whose death was announced last Friday. Her warm voice, incisive interviews, and unwavering commitment to women's stories have left a lasting mark on listeners across the country. Today we'll pay tribute to the remarkable broadcasting legacy she leaves behind by revisiting some of her most memorable moments.

And we'd love to hear from you with your memories of Jenny. You can get in touch in the usual ways. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, and you can email us through our website. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 037100-400-444.

Also on the programme today, the quandary for pregnant women, around taking certain medications while they're carrying their baby. Medical experts want clearer evidence-based guidance, and we'll talk to one woman facing this choice. Plus, not one, but two Hollywood actors will join me in the studio, Elizabeth Moss, who you'll know from The Handmaid's Tale, and Kate Mara, best known for playing the journalist in House of Cards,

will be talking about their new series, where they play great friends, but of course, not all is what it seems. And singer Jane MacDonald will be here to perform a song from her new album. So we have plenty coming up for you this morning. But of course we start today with the sad news that Dame Jenny Murray has died. From 1987 to 2020, she was the presenter of this programme. And throughout those 33 years, she brought her sharp intellect, wit and passion for women's stories to generations of listeners. She had conversations with some of the people.

most famous women on the planet, from Margaret Thatcher to Angsang Suu Kyi to Angelina Jolie and Nicole Kibman. And yet, it was her intuition for understanding women's lives, the struggles and the opportunities, and Jenny's openness about the challenges in her own life that endeared her to so many. Well, to help us remember Jenny this morning, I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by former Woman's Hour editor, Jill Burridge, who worked closely with Jenny for me. many years. Good morning to you, Jel. Hello there, Kylie. Thank you so much for coming in today. So you were editor here from 2002 to 2011. You were Jenny's boss, but also she was someone you regarded as a friend. So I wonder if you could tell us about Jenny as a person and what she was

like to work with. She was a professional through and through, and it just showed in the way she came in and prepared the program every day. She read her briefs, if it involved going to the theatre. She saw the play or she saw the film. She read the books and she digested them in a way and then thought very carefully about the way she was going to shape an interview and tell the story. And she used to come in very early in the morning and she'd sit in her office which was quite darkened with an Anglepoise lamp on her desk. And producers would go in and sit with her if they'd produce that item and they would brief her. but they didn't speak unless she spoke to them. And she shaped the interview, formed a question line.

She did write all her questions in a book. But that didn't mean that she stuck rigidly to the way she'd planned because her great gift was listening to what people said. So if somebody said something that she thought was really pertinent, off she went and picked that up and geared the whole interview that way. She was just so professional from start to finish. But she had this, and I have to say with producers,

you know, you had to sit, because I did produce before I edited the programme. And you had to sit while you were briefing her. You didn't talk to her unless she talked to you. And if you didn't know something, the best thing to do was to own up and say, I'll go away and check that fact. because if you tried to pretend that you did know, she would have you for breakfast.

You've said for her that the personal is political. It was why she chose to share her breast cancer story on air back in 2006. So why was it important to her to do that? And was she unusual in doing that at that time? She was. I think so. But she always regarded life as copy. That was the other thing that she always said. And there wasn't any hesitation when she got that diagnosis.

I remember the phone call and she told me the news. And she said right from the start, I want to go public. And the response from listeners was overwhelming. And that was at a time 2006. You know, before the internet hadn't really sort of got going in the way it has now. There was no social media, obviously. But the reaction from listeners was truly amazing. And she was quite bold over,

also very supported by it. And she was incredibly brave and positive about the whole procedure and took time off, but she really wanted to come back because work was her therapy. And she always saw the programme's relationship with listeners as it's lifeblood, didn't she? Why? Because our listeners are the essential part of the programme. And even in the days before the internet, when we used to depend on, on listeners to write to us, you know, snail mail. And you didn't get the reaction so quickly.

But of course, as soon as the internet came in and the feedback was immediate with emails and things, we were able to pick up on what listeners said. A lot of stories came that way. A lot of contacts came that way. And so they are the lifeblood of the programme. And, you know, I remember Jenny loving a series that we did for the 60th birthday anniversary of Woman's Hour. Woman's Hour saved my life.

And loads of listeners got in touch and told Jenny their story about what they had heard on Woman's Hour that caused them to take a life-changing decision. Well, of course, we have had so many comments about Jenny's passing. I just want to read a few of them out and I'll try to get to as many as I can during the program

but of course there are so many. So I want to say thank you already if you have got in touch. Linda says this news hit me hard. Jenny didn't know me, but she was part of my life. My thoughts go out to all her family and friends for there are sad loss. Vivian says, so sad. Missed your voice, your calm, intelligent, insightful presence on women's out throughout my life. I cried when you broadcast your last program.

You were part of the fabric of my days. I think it's important to say that her style to many listeners was very important and her approach to guests was unique, wasn't it, particularly at that time? She was intimate. I think that's why, you know, and those emails from listeners just reflect it all, don't they really? And the tone of her interviewing style, you sat at home and she was with you as a person, as a friend, as a colleague, but also as a very sharp interviewer. Let's hear some now.

Let's listen first to a clip of Jenny talking about one of her more memorable interviews when she talked to Hillary Clinton in 2014. Hillary Clinton was late, not her fault, somebody underestimating London traffic. She was supposed to be the first item in the programme. So instead, we very luckily had Shirley Williams, who was also in the running order. It's always been an absolute delight to interview. Shirley, what was your reaction when you heard your mother was to be honoured in this way?

Oh, I was bowled over. And then somebody said in my headphones, she's here, she's here, Clinton's here. And in she came, I thanked Shirley and her friend. Baroness Williams, Shirley Williams, and Helga-Rubon. And they were just getting up. And here he came and sat next to me, you know, at the time, the most famous woman in the world. and as I was introducing her, she suddenly started waggling a handbag

across the desk in front of me, which I thought was very strange. And I said, and this was all live, and she's just passed Shirley Williams' handbag over the table so that she doesn't leave it behind. Thank you very much, Hillary Rodham Clinton. Welcome to Women's Hour. And suddenly, this immensely powerful, frightening woman

was no longer powerful or frightening. She was just one of us. She'd sat down, but, oh my goodness, that woman's left her hand. back behind. She can't go without it. And then she gave me a wonderful, wonderful interview. I was really impressed by her, even when I asked her how she had coped with a man who had humiliated her consistently throughout their marriage. What is it about Bill that has enabled you to forgive his infidelity? Forgiveness is a choice. And I fully respect those who,

who don't make that choice for whatever reason in their personal or their professional lives. But for me, it was absolutely the right choice. She said, you know, Bill and I met when we were students. We began a conversation. And I like to say we started a conversation there in law school that we have never stopped. It kind of indicated that, yeah, the sex had been embarrassing and hurtful, and she had worked very hard to forgive him. but actually it was their intellectual relationship that mattered most.

Jill, it really sums up there that Jenny wasn't afraid to ask that question, or she? No, not at all. No. In fact, she looked for that opportunity in an interview. You know, she would have a gentler discussion and an introduction, and then she would be working her way towards that sharp question that put somebody on the spot. but it was the question that everybody wanted to ask and probably didn't dare to, you know. But I love as well the way that, you know, those instances about live broadcasting

with Shirley Williams leaving her handbag in the studio. I do remember that and we couldn't make out what an earth was going on. And that, you know, it thaws the whole atmosphere in the studio changes because it's relaxed. It's on air, live happening now. And it's almost brave, isn't it, to be able to acknowledge something like that? One of our listeners Elizabeth has messaged in talking about Jenny's interview technique.

She said she was fearless at asking awkward questions of those in power and empathetic to those with problems. Her voice was calm but firm. And that's it, isn't it? She was equally able to show warmth. So here she is talking to Judy Dench about her husband, Michael Williams, after his death in 2001. But without Michael, where's the bedrock of your confidence now? I don't know. You find it from somewhere?

Yes, I find it from... Well, I find it from my daughter and I find it from the people I work with. But she also wasn't afraid to push a guest to some more uncomfortable places too, like when she interviewed her at Weena Curry in 2002. One listener actually described Jenny as a fair interviewer

who managed to tease out a bit more story from her guest than they may have planned on. So this could be a very good example of that. I called the first debate on women's health ever in the House of Commons. I'm not disputing any of that. But what I'm disputing is how supportive to women you can call yourself when you have put Norma Majes' private life into the public sphere as you have. And frankly, she must be terribly embarrassed and humiliated.

I think that's an issue that she needs to take up with her husband. And he did not end the affair. I did. Clearly, an example of her very sharp interviewing style. She interviewed Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher several times too. There was one time a reviewer described it as the only time ever my radio had frozen over. So let's hear Jenny Murray remembering one of those occasions. There was one occasion after she had been deposed where she came into the studio rather than me having to go to Downing Street, which is what we usually did.

And I had a question that I wanted to ask her about how her gender constantly being referred to had affected her. You did also have people like Francois Mitterrand wax lyrical about your, I think he called them Marilyn Monroe Lips, and Alan Clark, who I know is a great friend of yours, about your ankles when he was sitting behind you in the House of Commons. He mentions it in his diaries. Did you play on that? Did you flirt if you had to? I didn't even know. I didn't even know they had made these comments.

How should I? And she just sat there opposite me, looking at me if I was completely off my head. What on earth was I talking about? That nightmare moment where an interviewer has to rapidly get on to the next question because the interviewer is just not responding. And that baffled me for a long time until I realized much later that Bernard, her wonderful press secretary, Tuffield, woman had probably never put that kind of story in front of her.

So when I told her about it, it was the first time she'd heard it. Oh, an amazing interview, that one, wasn't it, Jill? We've had so many comments, too, about the fact that she had a great sense of humour. Somebody said a charming and wickedly funny lady. Was that a side of you that you saw too? Side of her, sorry. Yes, she loved doing the lighter items on the programme as well, because that's the sort of key to women's hour that you can, you know,

serious politics, moving interviews to something much lighter in texture. I remember once we did a discussion about dirty sheets because I'd got teenage children. I happened to admit in a post-program meeting that I didn't bother to change the sheets at the weekends because the house would be full of teenagers staying over. And Jenny said, oh, that's disgusting. So an interview, a discussion ensued, you know, with people. people who, about changing sheets and it was just, it was just really funny and enlightening.

You know, she could do that. Obviously, we're talking about her impactful, impressive career, but her sons were her proudest achievement. Can you tell us a bit about her family? They were. She loved them. And I would just like to pay, send my condonances to all the family because this news has hit everybody in broadcasting house extremely hard because it was, you know,

came out of the blue, totally unexpected. And to hear her voice, it's very, very moving. So I can only imagine what they are going through as a family. Jenny was so proud of her sons. She wrote a book about raising boys. And that was one of her key things. And she was so proud of Ed, who is a vet, and Charlie a professional photographer.

And they were her, you know, supporters, her... side of her life, if you like. And she loved them very dearly. What do you see as Jenny's legacy for Women's Hour? I think if I had to sum it up really quickly, I think I'd say that she empowered women by giving them a voice because the programme, and she was very conscious of the history of the program, right from 1946.

and even though at the start it did sort of focus on domestic life, but that was the existence for women then. They very quickly learned to tackle those subjects, which other programmes regarded as a taboo, the personal side, what I used to call the plumbing side of women's lives. And Jenny thoroughly embraced all that agenda and enabled women to have their sense, at a time when they did not.

And you only have to look back over the last few decades to realise the impact that the changes have made for women in society in this country and abroad. It's been wonderful to talk to you. Jill Burrage, thank you so much. I just want to take a couple of minutes just to read a few listener comments. But I do just want to read this one here. from Mel B, former Spice Girl, of course.

She said Jenny was the first patron of women's aid. I followed in her footsteps, RIP, lovely lady. She says, I remember talking about leads, fish and chips and scraps with you. You loved scraps just like me. Little things like that.

Stay with you, she says. This is such a big loss. A woman who paved the way for so many others in the media. A strong feminist voice. Really, really sad of this. And a few more listeners. comments now. Sue says this is really sad news. I spent many hours as a young mother at home with two

small children listening to the voice of Jenny Murray on Women's Hour almost every day morning. She was a brilliant interviewer. And Jane says so very sad to hear this news. She was a legend, kept me company, kept me informed, challenged me during my maternity leave and beyond. Thank you so much again for your comments. Please do keep them coming in 84844. We also would like to share a message of gratitude from the Women's Hour team. The colleagues who worked alongside her and experienced the very best of her magnificent journalism and tireless passion for women. Thank you, Jenny. So as I said, do please keep those comments coming in on 84844 or also you can get in touch,

0300-100-444. Now, just coming into the studio, I am joined by acting raw. Royalty, Golden Globe and Emmy Award-winning Elizabeth Moss, best known for Mad Men and the Hammaid's Tale, and also Kate Mara from House of Cards and the Martian. They're here to tell me about their new drama, Imperfect Women, that's just started on Apple TV. Now, in the series, they're joined by Kerry Washington, and they play three best friends. It examines a crime that shatters their lives and friendships, and they are both here to tell me what happens when these friendships. start to unravel. Lovely to see you both.

Welcome to you both to Women's Hour. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Elizabeth, can I start with you? So you were an executive producer on this series alongside Kerry Washington. But you actually initially read the book, didn't you? Which also called Imperfect Women by Araminta Hall.

That was originally set in the UK, adapted to be set in America. What attracted you to it in the first place when you read it? It's a brilliant. book that I truly fell in love with. I bought it at the airport because I loved the cover and the title. I'm very deep that way. And Eremant is just an incredible writer and we're actually developing a couple of other things

with her that hopefully are actually definitely at least one of them is going to stay in the UK because I really would love to work here more. But anyway, it was really the structure of the book that starts with Carrie's character, Eleanor and then goes to Kate's character, Nancy, and then mine. And it's very unique and just so much fun, the structure that Aramenta came up with. And so it was really that that, you know, there was also a lot of fun, delicious, juicy stuff in the book and the show. But it was really the structure that took me. I'm not going to give away any spoilers here.

I intended to watch a couple of episodes and ended up watching six. So I think that probably tells you something about how much I liked it. Exactly. Thank you. Kate, can you tell us a bit about the storyline without any spoilers, of course. Yeah, well, the show starts off one of the three friends. My character, Nancy, has been killed. And the show sort of follows, everyone's trying to figure out what happened to Nancy.

And like Elizabeth said, it follows the three different women's perspectives of what happened, what happened in their lives, what happened in their friendships, and then ultimately what happened that night. So there's lots of twists and turns. And I do think that like, you know, when I read the, when I first read the book, my ideas of what was, of what happened to Nancy kept changing with each chapter, with each woman's perspective. And I think for sure, the show also gives that feeling for the audience as well. So tell us about Nancy then. And we'll good to play? Yeah, the role was really, really fun to play, mostly because I get to work alongside you know, Elizabeth Moss and Carrie Washington and the rest of the cast. Corey Stoll is in it as well

and Joel Kinnaman and it's just like a really wonderful cast. And yeah, the role, so the role of Nancy is she from the outside is very much living this ideal life. She's in this like gorgeous house. She has, you know, she's married into a very rich family. She has a daughter. It looks from the outside like her life is very much fulfilled. And, you know, as the show goes on, you sort of get to learn about what her past was and why she's running from it. It is really interesting that say that that each episode kind of my direction of where I was thinking, particularly about each character was changing.

Elizabeth, you play Mary. Her life is very, very different, isn't it? And they've been friends for 25 years, but isn't it interesting how their lives have gone these different ways? Yeah, I think it's very true to life. And that part's probably the most relatable part. I hope that none of the other parts are relatable to you and your friends, or anyone's friends.

But that is the thing that I think I related to very much. I have three best friends and one of them actually lives here in the UK. And your lives go in different directions. And hopefully you stay in touch. And usually if they're your best friend, you do. But sometimes you don't even talk every day. And sometimes, you know, you end up doing different things than when you were 20. But you, if it really is a true best friend, you know how it is.

You can not have seen them for months. And then it just pick up right where you left off. It's beautiful. And these three friends have that. But Mary's life, yes, ends up being very different from nancies and Eleanor's and more of a homemaker, a mom, a wife, and that's her job. It's everything. And taking care of her family is everything.

And I have a lot of admiration for that. I think that's just the hardest job in the world. You've recently had a child. Yes. And she has three. So, yeah. So, and Carrie has three as well. So it's something that, yeah, I have so much admiration for how hard, not just moms, but dads too.

Did you manage to have lots of time to work on that chemistry between the three of you before you started filming? We have had much more time now to work on it, right? We've seen the most of each other probably like promoting this show. We know each other so much better now because of the press tour. It's been awesome. Because when we were working on the show, obviously the hours are pretty insane. and then everyone wants to rush home to be with their families. So there was no time.

We were just really lucky. We had really instant natural chemistry that you just, you either have it or you don't. I think, you know, you follow someone's career and, you know, I watched Kate for years, watched Carrie for years. And also like observed from afar how they handle their personal lives. You know, I know her husband. Like it's, you know, you get an idea of a person's priorities. And so it wasn't too much. of a leap to think, oh, I'm going to get along with this person. You know, I knew we were like-minded

in some ways. So, and same with Carrie. That's an interesting one in terms of looking at personal lives, because I wonder, you know, living your lives in the way that you do, how do you manage that making sure that you do have that personal life? Well, honestly, part of is I didn't know a lot about their personal lives. And that is where I come from as well. Attractive. Right. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. But they don't broadcast that whole side of their life. Exactly. That's what I mean. Yeah.

Where it's like I actually, even though I knew Jamie a little bit, like I didn't know, you know, all the kids' names and ages. And, you know, it was. And same with Carrie. Like, and that to me is sort of how I choose to be as well and will be in the future with my child. So I think that's what I mean. Like you see how somebody conducts their professional and personal life. And I knew like, okay. Yeah, I admire that.

I can, you know, that's somebody I would be friends with. Is that important to you, Kate, to keep that. that personal life very personal. Well, I think it's definitely important. It's also so much more difficult now than ever before because of social media and all that stuff. But yeah, I think it's important. It's also really useful as an actor.

If people don't know anything about your personal life, it's much easier for an audience to get lost in whatever character you're playing, you know? We're very similar that way. Yeah. In that thinking, yeah, for sure. Can I go right back, Elizabeth, to the, West Wing. Yes, you may.

Which I loved. I mean, I still think it's probably the best political drama ever made. It's so good. I can say that it is, and I think so too, because I'm very, not very responsible for that show. You know, I'm not putting myself on the back at all. It was a reoccurring character. It had nothing to do with it. So I agree.

What was it like being part of that? Oh, it was such a gift, honestly. I was 17 to 23 when I did it. I literally did my last episode on West Wing. at the beginning of April and shot the Mad Men pilot at the end of April. Oh, wow. Yeah. I know.

What a run. I know. It's so cool. I'm very, very fortunate. So the coolest thing was the people I got to work with, you know, which looking back even now at the time I appreciated it, but now I'm like, oh, my God, I'm 17. And I was with Bradley Whitford, Martin Sheen, Richard Schiff, Allison Janney, John Spencer.

Like, I was with these actors that are just some of the best that we have. Learning from them, I guess. Learning from them and not just on camera, but off camera. And that is where I learned how to be on set. That is where I learned how you're supposed to behave, how you're supposed to treat other people, how you're supposed to collaborate with the crew. Martin Sheen would literally treat the gentleman who was holding the door open for him, like the background actor who was there.

He would treat him exactly the same way as he would treat the other lead actor in the scene or the director or John Wells, the producer. Like, it was just, and that I was like, that's how you're supposed to be. And then Brad would just be like doing stupid stuff on the, you know, like making jokes and being hilarious and then doing a really, really good job as soon as the camera was rolling. Everyone knew their lines. Like, it just was, I was like, oh, this is how it's supposed to be. So it was an incredible learning experience. You, of course, played June Osborne, known as Offred in Handmaid's Tale, dramatized from Margaret Atwood's novel.

many of our listeners will have of course seen you in that, read that book. What was it like portraying her? Because, I mean, it was, you know, that is a full on role to play. Yeah. Again, it was a very life-changing experience personally and professionally for me. Nine years spent during that. And I learned how to be a producer. I learned how to be a director.

I really learned how to lead a show. It was my first time being number one on the call sheet. Like, you know, so it was really a big life-changing experience as well. I find her very inspiring. I find her just so cool and strong and complicated. And I've always been kind of inspired by June. So again, just a gift to get to portray somebody who's, you know, I look up to. Same, by the way.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. She's amazing. I know. Again, I can say that because it's not me. It's this character that was so beautifully written by Bruce in his writer's room. And Kate, you played Zoe Barnes in. House of Cards.

What was that like? What did you learn from that role? Well, it was a really fulfilling experience, mostly because David Fincher started off that show directing it. And so, you know, getting to work with him was like just a dream. And then a lot of our other, all of our other directors were really fantastic on that show as well. And I mean, I'm still friends. Actually, it's funny because Corey Stoll was in House of Cards as well. We had no scenes together, but he's obviously in imperfect women.

So that's kind of wild for us to be working together now all these years later. But I've stayed friends with Michael Kelly on House of Cards over the years and Fincher. And it was just a really, it was a very special experience, really challenging because David's very, he's just very unique in the way he works and very demanding and all of those things, but so fulfilling. I mean, that puts streaming on the map, too. We've never talked about this. But I remember at the time, that was like the pinnacle.

House of Cards was like what we all on television looked up to. You know, there'd be no, I think, quality of streaming without that show and what it did. I could talk to you both all day, but we've only got a couple of minutes left. I just want to ask you both kind of what's ahead for you. Your sister is Rooney Mara, and I believe you're going to be working with her on something. We did, actually. We filmed a movie together right before we filmed Imperfect Women called Bucking Fastered. That's a Werner Herzog directed film.

So we'll see when that comes out. I'm not totally sure yet, but hopefully soon. And Kate, Elizabeth, what are you planning to work on next? I'm starting a show this summer for Hulu called Conno. Inviction, which is David Shore, who did House and Good Doctor. And, yeah, I have no language about it yet. We're literally at the very, very beginning of it. So I have no idea how to talk about it to promote it.

I'm like, I don't know what I say. Sold. We're in. We're watching. Well, if you're in it, I'll watch it. Yeah, it's fine. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming in both of you, Elizabeth Moss and Kate Mara.

And just to say that it is out now, isn't it, on Apple TV, Imperfect Women? Thank you so much for your time here on Women's Hour. Thank you. I do just want to get a few more comments in if we can. Obviously, we've been talking about the death of Dame Jenny Murray, presenter, of course, of this program for 33 years. Brenda says a masterclass in presenting and interviewing. I remember hearing her once in the earlier days of the women's movement,

telling us all to go and talk with our grandmothers, aunties, moms and other older women and making sure we heard their stories before they were lost forever because the importance of their everyday experiences was starting to be recognized. What a great comment. Brenda, thank you so much. And Jaws has got in touch saying that she grew up listening to Jenny and continued to do so throughout my adult life. I admired her greatly and loved her calm voice and brilliant interviewing style.

Thank you once again for all your comments. For years, I've sounded like a broken room. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, for many women, knowing which medicines are safe to take during pregnancy or while breastfeeding has long been a source of confusion and concern. Experts at the British Pharmacological Society are highlighting the urgent need for clearer evidence-based guidance on the use of medicines during this period of women's lives.

Now, they want to draw attention to what they say are significant evidence gaps, inconsistent advice for patients, and the long-standing exclusion of pregnant and breastfeeding women from clinical trials. Well, to talk about this, I'm joined now by Dr. Emma McAvan, who's fellow of the British Pharmacological Society and a clinical lecturer in clinical pharmacology at Queen Mary University. And also Nikki Wilson, the CEO of the Maternal Mental Health Alliance, who decided to go onto antidepressants when pregnant with her second child. Emma, if I can start with you, just tell us why is the British Pharmacological Society, BPS calling for that clearer evidence-based guidance in this area.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to be here today and for the interest in this work from the British Pharmacological Society. So we know that four out of every five women do indeed take medication during pregnancy, but as you mentioned historically, women who are pregnant or breastfeeding have been excluded from clinical research and that is the way that we generate an evidence space to understand how safe and effective medicine is during these periods. So this leads to inconsistent evidence and evidence gaps, and the result of that can be mixed messages and unclear communication and difficulty for women in accessing the information they need to make informed decisions about what is right for them and their babies during pregnancy

and breastfeeding. So we would like to highlight awareness around the issue and see some changes to fill in these evidence gaps and support and empower women to make these nuanced choices about what is right for them and their babies. More than 80% of women in the UK take at least one medication during pregnancy or breastfeeding. If there is limited data on safety and efficacy, what can be the consequences? So I think the really important thing to highlight is that communication can be very unclear year because when anyone takes a medication, and this is true also of pregnant and breastfeeding women, there's always a risk benefit ratio. So there must be a risk to the woman and therefore

her baby if they have a medical condition which requires treatment. And that needs to be carefully weighed up against any potential risk or benefit of taking a medication. Now, because of uncertainties in evidence base, that risk benefit balance can be unclearly communicated. And sometimes an emphasis on any risk perceived to be associated with the medication can really drive that conversation to the exclusion of the incredibly important point of the risk of not taking medication of an untreated health problem to mom and baby. We should say any individual should of course speak to their GP or midwife about their own healthcare needs. Nikki, I want to bring in you here because you had this happen, didn't you?

and you decided to go on antidepressants while you were pregnant. Can you tell me if you're happy to do so, just show how that came about? Yeah, of course. Thank you. So I first started taking antidepressant about six months after my first son was born. And even at that time, that was a very difficult decision in that postpartum period. But I was trying all the everythings to get better. I was having therapy. I was using a lot of mindfulness techniques. But at that time, though, I didn't know. I was suffering from PTSD and there was a lot of symptoms that I just couldn't shake. So going on the antidepressants was actually quite a pivotal part of helping me to begin to get better. So when we made the, it was a hard decision to go for another baby because I've been so unwell. But we came to that decision, I came off the medication. And when I reflect now on why I came off it, I imagine, I remember feeling relatively well, mentally well, but equally very influenced by probably what is a societal narrative that tells us, you know, it's best not to be on any type of medication when you're pregnant, particularly in that first trimester.

So when I fell pregnant with my second son, I quite quickly, within a matter of weeks, began to realize that mentally I was not okay. I can feel my mental health spiraling. This is quite common with trauma. A lot of kind of re-experiencing the panic attacks kind of coming back, for example. So I was in this even more difficult, I would say, gut-wrenching kind of state of trying to decide what to do because I was in my first trimester. So I did reach out and asked for advice, not from specialist healthcare professionals like a psychiatrist, for example, that this is through a GP and a midwife. And the information I was given,

it didn't lack compassion. It lacked clarity. It lacked consistency. So I was told generally, what are often called SSRIs are considered safe. However, it's also not, if you can avoid going on them in your first trimester, it's better.

And if you do go on them, we will have to monitor your son for withdrawal symptoms when he's born. However, anecdotally, I've actually, I remember the midwife saying to me, I've actually never seen any baby show any withdrawal symptoms. So then it was kind of thrown back to me, so you decide. So what I faced is unfortunately what thousands of women and birthing people face in these type of difficult moments, whereas having to really weigh up what I knew to be the benefits to my mental health.

against a very uncertain set of information. And you've discovered, of course, with your work within the Maternal Mental Mental Health Alliance that you're not alone in this. No, absolutely. So I hear today I'm passionately representing not just my own story, but the story of thousands of women and birthing people. And probably one of the most significant things we could talk about

is really the shame and the stigma that is coming from lots of different places and spaces, but one of the reasons that that exists is because we don't have the evidence base we need. And also, importantly, our healthcare professionals are not aware of the evidence base, which for SSRIs, for example, is quite reassuring in terms of its safety during pregnancy and postpartum.

So, Emma, you want this broader knowledge for medical professionals, but also in the BPS statement, as you mentioned, there is mention of pregnant women taking part in clinical trials. What circumstances do you foresee that happening in? Because there will be listeners remembering what happened with thalidomide, marketed as a sedative and treatment for morning sickness, back in the late 50s and early 60s, but of course we know that there were some very serious effects from women taking that.

So what circumstances do you foresee, briefly, if you can, of women being involved in clinical trials, pregnant women? Yes, of course. Firstly, it was so wonderful to hear Nikki's story, and thank you for sharing that because I feel that that so beautifully highlights the importance of this area in a way that a professional statement never could. With regard to clinical trials and participation of pregnant and breastfeeding women, absolutely that the lack of this clear evidence base comes from a lack of inclusion of pregnant and breastfeeding women in clinical trials. And if you think that that is the basis for our gold standard evidence on how safe and effective a medicine is, then we can say that clinical trials about 30% include women and about 1% include pregnant women. So that's obviously a very big discrepancy.

You're asking about safety, which is an incredibly important point to address. The first thing I would say is that there's lots of areas of clinical research that would be done in this area that are either observational. so they make use of choices women are already making to take medicine or not and look at the outcomes to generate further evidence. Those mathematical modeling studies. And one aspect, of course, is clinical studies. So clinical trials have incredibly strict governance processes in place from the healthcare authorities and ethical bodies

responsible for monitoring, approving, and overseeing these studies. And the guiding principle is safety, safety, safety. safety and everything is designed around safety. And a huge amount of evidence must always be generated to show that a medicine is safe as far as we can possibly tell before it would ever be offered to anyone in a trial setting. That said, of course, people have concerns and you highlighted thalidomide. So the thalidomide tragedy, of course, did not take place in the setting of research. So that's an example of what can happen when there isn't research, governance in place, unfortunately.

And there's a consensus that actually the scale of that tragedy could never have taken place if actually there had been an evidence-based generated with research. So very important then that this is looked at in the future. Thank you both of you for coming in and speaking to us. I just want to read a couple of comments statements actually that we've had. An NHS spokesperson said women may need to take medication for a range of different physical and mental health problems during pregnancy. Important to speak to your pharmacist, midwife or GP,

who will be able to provide you with the best treatment options to support your health based on the most up-to-date clinical guidance. One from the Medicines and Health Care Regulatory Agency, they told Women's Hour, the MHRA recognises the importance of including pregnant and breastfeeding women in clinical trials of new medicines, as they're historically underrepresented in such studies. The new international guideline proposed in consultation

highlights that in principle, pregnant and breastfeeding individuals should be eligible for inclusion in clinical trials of medicines that may be appropriate for their medical condition. Feedback on this consultation is currently being reviewed and considered. That's the statement there from the MHRA. I should also just say that if you've been affected by anything you've heard in that discussion, you can go to the BBC Actionline page

where you can find links to support. And NHS England also suggests bumps as a resource for pregnant women, so you can find that out too. Now, from cruise ship singer to national treasure, Jane McDonald has been a constant presence in British show business for nearly three decades. She first shot to fame on the 1990s, docus soap, The Cruise, brilliant watch, quickly becoming a household name as viewers became invested in both her career and her romantic life. Now, in 1998, she made music history when her debut album went straight to number one, making her the first artist ever to top the UK charts without prior release.

Well, since then, she's released 10 albums, performed at the Palladium and in Vegas, and returned to cruising, presenting a huge number of travel documentaries. She's back with a new album now, her 11th and a major arena tour. Oh, my goodness, Jane. I don't know what else to say. That is a lot. Oh, I'm busy. I'm very, very busy. But it keeps me out of trouble.

You're thankful, though, for being busy, I guess. Oh, my goodness me. Who would have ever thought it? You see, when you've sort of come into this industry, everybody says, oh, it's about five. minutes of fame. That's it. So you've got. So I've been running with this ball for nearly three decades now. But I've realised that. I work well under stress. I work well we know sleep. I work well, you know, with a really bad diet. So it works for me. And I love what I do. And I'm grateful that I am still here. It's like you say, I'm very grateful. And I think that's something that I'll always be. And that's the fans.

So God love them. I said to you just before in the green room, you look great. What's your secret? And you said to me, work. Work. Yeah, that's it. I don't know why. And Sue Raving. Obviously, she does my hair and make up at half past six this morning in the dark.

So, you know, hats off to her for doing that. So tell us about this new album then. I went to Nashville to do it. And you can actually watch the Nashville TV show because we filmed it for Channel 5. That's out on the 8th of April and the 9th of April. So we did it behind the scenes and all about Nashville. But I was writing. the album with Chris Eaton, A.J. Brown, Sean Barry and Wayne Pollock. And I thought to myself, this has got a bit of a country, twang. So I just said out the blue, should we go to Nashville? And they all looked at me as if I'd just, you know, come from another planet. And we said, come on, let's go. And we did. And oh my goodness, I just cannot tell you how the response has been. It's been out a couple of days now, Kylie. And, and, and, you. And, you.

the response from the fans has been far more than I could have ever imagined. Well, I'm very happy to say that you're going to perform something from it, aren't you? Beautiful Soul. Can you tell us what that's about? The Beautiful Soul is, it was difficult for me to write, and I'm so grateful to Chris Eaton and A.J. Brown, who helped me sort of write a tribute to my other half, who sadly passed away. But, you know, today, this is going to be for Jenny. because she was a beautiful soul and a Barnes-Las. So I feel like I'm meant to be here today

to pay this tribute to Jenny. Yeah, because you're from not far away. Exactly. I live seven miles away. So it just feels right. Sorry, I got a bit. It feels right to dedicate it to Jenny today. That's beautiful of you. Thank you so much.

Well, if you're able, I'm going to ask you to sing it for us. Oh, no pressure. Now, please, Jane. I'll let you go and set it. up. Thank you. So this is Jane McDonald's singing Beautiful Soul. It's from her new album, which is out now, Living the Dream. Jane, that was so beautiful. Thank you so much for performing that. I didn't realize I was going to be so emotional thinking about it. I could hear it in your voice. I mean, well done. How do you manage to perform songs? Well, I usually can form it a lot better.

Well, I thought it was absolutely stunning, Jane. when it's very personal to you, very painful. How do you perform? Well, that's the first time I've sang it without being in a recording studio. So I've never sang it live and I've never sang it, you know, in this environment. And, you know, it's coming up to Ed's passing as well in a couple of days. So it just sort of hit me there and then hearing the beautiful stories about Jenny. And that's what's really done it for me today.

It's not just about me. It's about everybody's beautiful soul. And that's the beauty of music. It can touch so many different people. And people take it for their song, for their loved one. And that's how I get through it on a stage. I'm just the channel. So although we write the songs and we perform them for you,

they are personal to you. And that's what I do. And that's how I get through it. And everyone, on connects, don't they, to songs in different ways, and that's the beauty of it. You've been in the business, as we were saying, 27 years. What do you put that longevity down to? Work.

I never stop. I just never stop. But how do you decide what projects are going to take on? Because you must get offered things and think, no, that's not for me. Gut feeling. Right. And I've always had it. Thankfully for me, it didn't happen to me until I was in my 30s.

So I'd already done the club circuit. I'd already worked the cruise ships. And I was very much a boss and my own manager then. So when I got all the, you know, when I got into the public eye, all of a sudden, all that control was gone from me. And then everything fell apart. And I honestly think failure is the thing that makes your success. Because when you lose everything and, I mean, I lost everything,

the record deal, I lost the, the television deal. I lost my husband. I lost the manager. And I sat there and I thought, how hard can this be? So I read all the books, all about the music industry,

and I learned it inside out. I learned to be a lawyer. I learned to be a manager. I learned to be everything that I needed to be, a producer, a recording artist. I have my own label. I have my production company.

And I do it all myself. And I think that's why I'm here 27 years afterwards. I mean, that's pretty inspirational that, isn't it? So the album is called Living the Dream. What are you hoping then for this next chapter in your life? Well, there is a song called The Next Chapter. And I want to say to people out there, life does go on, you know,

and it's up to you what you do with it. I'm very much a half-glassful type of person. And I am living the dream. I have a fantastic job. I have great friends around me who I'm very grateful for and just surround yourself with people who don't drain you, fill you up

and I've learnt that and that comes with age and I'm really pleased to be getting older and finally enjoying with gusto, everything that I do and it's wonderful I'm in a place now where I've never been

and it's the most amazing exhilarating place I've ever been right now. I don't think I have ever been as happy as I am right now. It's so lovely to hear and it's wonderful to have you here in the studio, Jane. Thank you so much. I really

appreciate you coming in and Jane's album Living the Dream is out now and as Jane was mentioning her Nashville documentary will be broadcast on Channel 5 bit later this spring and she'll be on tour around the UK from August and I can tell you that that performance was beautiful to hear. Thank you so much.

I just want to take a few minutes if I can to read a few more comments that we've had, of course, about Dame Jenny Murray. This one here says she was the best. She challenged power of any description. She had a great voice, tender and caring with anyone experiencing problems, laser-focused with the powerful. Angie said, Jenny held from Barnsley like me and was always proud of her Yorkshire roots, as Barnsley was of her great broadcaster. And one from Carol here. Carol says, beautiful speaking voice and a perfect interviewer and such a warm natural way with her, never forgotten.

Thank you so much for all your comments today. We have been absolutely overwhelmed by them. So I do apologise if I haven't been able to read them all out. But we have read them all and really appreciate them. Thank you so much. Just time to let you know that I'll be back tomorrow. I'll be talking to MP Nas Shah. Now, she was 20 when her mother was convicted of the murder of her abuser and campaigned for her release.

She joins us to talk about her new memoir, which is called Honoured Survival Strength and My Path to Politics. So do join me, if you can, tomorrow for that. But for now, thank you very much indeed for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Jamie Bartlett. And for BBC Radio 4, I'll be looking at how fakery took over. over the world. No, no, hang on, hang on, sorry. You're not Jamie Bartlett, I'm Jamie Bartlett.

Oh, really? Well, who am I then? I'm afraid you're not real pal. You're just an imitation chapboard I created to help me make this series on modern fakery and why it's everywhere. Sounds good. What's going to be in it? Well, there's a lot. 1980s professional wrestling, dodgy academics, AI psychosis, COVID vaccine, skeptics. What's it called? Everything is fake. and nobody cares with me, Jamie Bartlett. And me, Jimmy Botlett. Listen first on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record.

I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. could definitely just a story.

From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.