Woman's Hour - Dame Joan Collins, Universities and sexual misconduct, Dr Ophira Ginsburg - a feminist approach to cancer

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Dame Joan Collins has dominated the stage and screen for over seven decades, starting her career at just 17. Best known for her roles in the 1980s TV phenomenon Dynasty and Hollywood Golden Age films, she has written a new memoir Behind the Shoulder Pads: Tales I Tell My Friends. She speaks to Emma about her glittering career, sexism in Hollywood and turning 90. Students are more likely than other groups of people to be subjected to sexual assault. A study soon to be published by researchers at Oxford University has found that one in four female students at the university had experienced some sort of sexual assault in the preceding year. Now, universities are said to be spending increasingly more of their time investigating complex sexual misconduct cases. But how equipped and effective are they in investigating such cases? And why are students putting their faith in university hearings rather than going to the police?  Emma discusses with Professor Steve West, Vice Chancellor of University of West of England, Eleanor Laws KC, leading criminal barrister and Geraldine Swanton, a lawyer working with the higher and further education sector.A new report from a commission at the medical journal The Lancet looks at how cancer disproportionately impacts women. “Women, Power and Cancer” puts the case forward for an intersectional feminist approach to cancer - with the goal of transforming the ways women interact with the cancer health system. The commission has been headed up by Dr Ophira Ginsburg from the National Cancer Institute in the US.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. How's the day going so far? You know I always want to know how you are, but some of the details, please. I'm asking because one of my guests today has a morning routine that sounds dreamlike, positively filmic. She awakes at around seven, stays in bed until about now, until about 10am, after which she slips on her Marabou featherbed jacket

and calls down to whomever's in the home for scrambled eggs and caviar to be brought up to her. She then presses on with three newspapers and after breakfast lies back in bed and puts on reruns of the 80s TV classic Dynasty and sees how Alexis, the character within Dynasty, might spend her day. She should know as she played her. I'm talking about the iconic actor Dame Joan Collins. She's on Woman's Hour today and in line with her morning schedule, she's not my first guest this morning. I mean, we're talking at 10.03, but she's coming on a bit later, I hope. Your questions for Dame Joan Collins, please.

But also, what does your dream daily routine look like? She recently turned 90. You don't need to wait until then. Or maybe you are at that point and you're listening. I hope we're part of your daily dream routine, but maybe we're not. You're catching up on this later. Let me know, though, if you're listening live. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Social media, please

get in touch about that or anything else you hear today. I'm sure there'll be some things you have some views on as always at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note. We can hear your voices and sometimes also get you on the airwaves as well. I love doing that on 03700 100 444. Just watch out for those data charges or terms on our website.

But first, many students have just started university or returned for the new year. You may well have waved some of them off with something in your eye, or you may well be one of them. Good morning to all of you. The majority of those students will not have any interaction with the systems and situations we are about to discuss. But increasing numbers do because it is claimed that students are more likely than any other group of people to be subjected to sexual assault. For instance, a study soon to be published by researchers at Oxford University has found that one in four female students at the university had experienced some sort of sexual assault in the preceding year. That's just one example.

Universities are said to be spending increasingly more of their time investigating complex sexual misconduct cases. But how equipped and effective are these institutions at those investigations? And should the mostly female students be making the complaints towards their university, putting their faith in those hearings rather than going to the police and using the criminal justice system? Or to think about it another way, what should the mainly male students accused do in terms of response? It's a very difficult subject to help navigate it and give some experience of what's really happening at the moment. Professor Steve West, Vice-Chancellor

and President of the University of West of England at Bristol, Eleanor Laws, KC, a leading criminal barrister and Geraldine Swanton, a lawyer working with the higher and further education sector. Warm welcome to all of you. Professor Steve West, if I may start with you, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. How much of a concern is this for you as a vice-chancellor at your university? Well, it's a concern for all vice-chancellors, including me. What we're seeing in our universities, of course,

are large numbers of 18 to 25 year olds coming into universities to study and we have a general duty of care to make sure that the environments within which they're engaging with are safe and that our students are confident in the spaces that they are working in. Now that general duty of care of of course, is very wide-spanning, and I guess that's what we're going to be talking about today. Yes. What sort of cases in the context I'm talking about are you seeing? So we're seeing a range of cases that sort of sit together, really. There's a whole raft around bullying, harassment, antisocial behaviour, but there's also sexual misconduct and sexual harassment and domestic violence that sits in all of those.

And, of course, the line for a university is how we can support students where there are criminal activities to absolutely engage with a criminal justice system, because we're not equipped to be a criminal justice system because we're not equipped to be a criminal justice system we are an environment that is um uh setting rules and expectations around behavior so if a complainant comes to you which as i described it was largely going to be your female students as i understand it they come to you when they and and you and and those around you deem it fit for the university to look at the particular case,

where the threshold perhaps hasn't been met in her view or your view to go to the police. Let's just take that as given for a moment. What is the actual process? Do you assemble some kind of panel? What happens and how can and how do largely male students who are being accused, get treated? So the university would work with the students where we know the students. Sometimes we get anonymous speak out, speak up information. Where we know the students, then we will investigate them and try to gather information and evidence to understand the context within which a claim is being made. So interviewing and engaging with the students making the claims, and then obviously engaging and talking with the student who has been accused. If we believe,

and there are different levels of this in terms of conduct. So if we believe that this is a serious case of misconduct, then that will go to a highly trained group of individual staff that we use across the university to investigate it fully. And then we will listen to students engaging with the process that allows them to give their statements. Those statements will be checked, provide any evidence that we can gather, and then also go through a process whereby we'll question the students to understand what's going on. Are they questioned in front of each other?

No, they're not. So it's separate hearings? So separate. We do not require the students to, in terms of a face-to-face standoff, which is sometimes how it's described. We're trying to protect both the person who is accusing and the person who has been accused. It's a very difficult position, I imagine, for the university to be in. Yet it's an important part, as you say, about the role of pastoral care while you're at university because universities across the board have been criticized over the last decade or so for not doing anything and not doing enough in some cases I'm just putting that across the board I'm not talking about your specific university um do you think you talked about a highly group a highly trained group of staff to

investigate i've just written down those words yeah are they good enough are they trained enough if you are the mother of a son who's been uh dismissed for instance from university should you have faith in the university having really done its due diligence to the level that should be should be there in such an important case, important for the person who has complained for the alleged victim and important for the person who has been complained about? So dismissal of a student is a very serious position to take. And within all universities, it's not a decision that's taken lightly. And there are a number of reasons why a student might be dismissed from university or required

to withdraw from a university or may be suspended for a period from a university and there are checks and balances in all those cases including ultimately the decision sits with the vice chancellor or with a deputy vice chancellor that's delegated authority they are independent of course from the entire investigation and the first part of the process. Do you think you're up to the job? Yeah, I think I am up to the job. I think my colleagues are up to the job. We work very closely with our legal counsel. We work very closely with experts in the field. We have a trained set of staff who undertake the investigations from social work backgrounds and from legal backgrounds. And we also have a key caseworker now around sexual harassment and violence.

Pause that thought. You talk about working closely with legal counsel. It's a good time to bring in some of the legal minds we have with us this morning. Geraldine Swanton, very briefly, I'll come to you in just just a moment but very briefly back to you if I can for one more Steve West as the as a vice chancellor how many students have you dismissed in your time with these sorts of cases? Over my time bear in mind I've been a vice chancellor for 18 years and we have 35,000 students at my university. So it's quite a big place. I've probably dismissed for this purpose around three students. Three. And sometimes that's in parallel with a criminal investigation.

Right. OK, so I think it's good to just get a sense of how this has panned out so far with you and your institution, with your time there, to try and put this, it's not the only perspective, but in some perspective, about headlines that people may have seen around this. Geraldine, what is your view on the role of universities and how they're handling this, not just, of course, where Steve West works? I think it's, first of all, important to understand that what is being investigated in this context is a breach of a university's own domestic rules by, you know, a lay investigator and a lay panel and the panels made up of academics and senior administrators. It's emphatically not an investigation of an alleged commission of a criminal offence and because universities do not have the legal power nor the forensic competence to conduct criminal investigations. So within that context, I think universities are well placed to investigate a report of a breach of their own rules. Do you have any concerns about the systems being set up,

the hearings being set up? I have concerns about the increasing formality of these proceedings and in particular the recent cases which said that students, responding students, students who are accused of sexual misconduct should be legally represented. And I think the introduction of lawyers creates an overly formal, protracted process where lawyers can often conduct themselves in ways more appropriate to Crown Court proceedings, which can sometimes bewilder lay disciplinary panels. barrister representing the male responding student submitted 19 pages of questions for the reporting student amounting to highly aggressive cross-examination. Another criminal barrister asked for a five-day, and I use the term the barrister used, trial, which is impractical for a lay panel in what is essentially an investigation into a breach of domestic rules. And I think that approach will deter students from reporting alleged misconduct. It also increases the costs because panels will want to be legally advised. And it also reinforces inequality, in my view, because students from wealthy backgrounds will be able to afford lawyers, but poorer students will not.

So there's a problematic development. Which is also why it's important to hear this discussion and be part of this this morning because of how it is developing. Listening to that, Eleanor Laws Casey, a leading criminal barrister, what do you make of the criticisms there of how this is developing by, well, not a fellow barrister, but a fellow lawyer, someone in your world? Well, the reality is I come at this from a point of view of someone who attends these hearings, and they are shockingly varying in terms of how universities approach

them. And I'm also approaching this as a mother of four young adult children, females and a male, one still at university. And I can say this much from what I have seen on the inside. I would not be confident at all if one of my daughters wanted to complain about a sexual misdemeanor to one of these panels. I wouldn't be confident that they would be investigating in a way that would ensure the evidence wasn't contaminated so that if she wanted in the future to take this to the police, it wouldn't prejudice that. And I also wouldn't be confident that she would be treated with the level of expertise and with all the measures

that those who are properly trained in this area know how to deal with. But I also wouldn't be confident of my son going into one of these hearings in front of a panel who, however much it's said, are highly trained, they are not. And in front of a panel who have a vested interest, because if a vice-chancellor or chancellor isn't taking a decision, it's usually in the face of in the past having been not supportive enough of complainants or victims. And therefore, what is the easier route on a determination of fact when it's one word against the other and you are facing increasing criticisms? It is to try and get this matter dealt with as quickly as possible and to expel the mail.

And the hearings, I'm afraid my experience is not that there is any aggressive cross-examination. And that yet again misunderstands the role of lawyers in this area. Because a trained adjudicator, whether it be a judge or a district judge in the youth court, would know that with a vulnerable witness, all that lawyers could and should do is identify the most they can do. No one's suggesting you go in and submit anyone to difficult cross-examination at a university tribunal. But you have to be aware that these are serious sexual allegations. And whilst we're couching this as these are sexual misdemeanors and harassment, I deal with cases where the young male is facing allegations of rape or multiple rapes and that if this were to reach the Crown Court, which it should if it's correct and if it's true, then it should be properly investigated

and indeed aired in front of a jury. And the potential consequences are double figures in prison for these young men. So it is wrong to say, well, a procedure that was set up to deal with cheating and things of similar nature should be dealing with serious sexual offences. I'm going to let Steve West come back to some of those because there's specific criticisms of university there. But can I come back just to the one thing that you could reply on because it's your profession, which Geraldine raised? You said, of course, those in your profession wouldn't go and shouldn't go to a hearing like

this and cross-examine in an inappropriate way. I'm paraphrasing what you just said, but not everybody will behave correctly as a lawyer, dare I say. Well, the reality is that because these proceedings, whatever Professor West says, it is his obligation as a chancellor to ensure that there is fairness, natural justice. And there's a recent case that made it quite clear that universities should do that. And if that is the case, then you should have someone who is trained chairing this panel. Anyone who's trained will know that I can't speak for other lawyers, but it's not my experience in the criminal courts. Cross-examination and challenges to witnesses are designed to assist the person making a determination. That's in an ideal world

with a good chair and a trained chair. And you're actually saying these situations don't necessarily have any of the right people at quite the right level to do this. To have it both ways, though, your point is if somebody doesn't want to take it to the police, Eleanor, and they want to take it to the university, do you think, a final thought from you before I put this back, but then I'll come back to you again, do you think that lawyers should be in the room? Well, I think, can I start with this? I think that the first duty upon a university should be to encourage the complainant to go to the police. Secondly, I do think it's not what I think. These are in the university's general guidance in a serious sexual offence, which is a sexual misdemean, which constitutes a rape, the student, every student, not just those that can afford it, that's the scandal. Every single student, whether they be the complainant

or whether they be the accused, should have legal representation. OK, there's a lot there. Professor Steve West, it is not fit for purpose. This should be going to the police if it's reaching a threshold that has just been described. And the highly trained people that you speak of are not trained enough, says a leading criminal barrister. So with due respect, I absolutely agree in terms of encouraging students, often female, but not necessarily always, where we can support that student to go through the criminal justice system,

to go to the police, then we will do so and we should do so. The question, and there is a serious question here, is why are students and why are females in particular not keen to go to the police and why does the criminal justice system fail in that respect? There's a whole raft of questions that flow from that. Going back to Geraldine's point, the university is operating within the terms of reference for a university. In other words, we have our code of conducts and our expectations on students that they sign when they enter the university. And in effect, what we're doing is testing the level of probability that something has gone wrong in terms of not just sexual misconduct, but all sorts of misconduct. And we're then making a judgment. It's the balance of probability. It is not the same level that you would see in the criminal justice system.

And I do believe that we do that within the parameters expected of a university. If we're going in another direction, then I would love to be able to engage with how does the criminal justice system work to encourage young people to come forward when something has happened and then to be treated appropriately and supported through the criminal justice system. OK, but just so, I will come back to the criminal justice system in a moment, because I know that there's statistics around the rate of conviction versus what actually gets to court. That is an important distinction we've talked about on this programme many, many times. But effectively, to summarise, as a vice-chancellor, Steve West, you're standing by the systems and the process you have with what actually comes through to your attention in cases of this nature. Eleanor, you've just heard the response

of what Steve has said. Has any of it convinced you? Not at all. It's shocking to me that those who are making these decisions haven't actually taken the time and trouble to understand how police and the courts deal with vulnerable witnesses and deal with taking accounts. And secondly, how it is that effective cross-examination, which actually most of the time in these hearings could and should, as when I've seen good practice,

be conducted by the chair with written questions, usually only about 10 to 15, because that is what happens in the Crown Court. So if you are making determinations of fact, even on the balance of probabilities, what you're saying is you're effectively, in the cases of a rape allegation, you don't use the word rape, but you are effectively saying, I think you're probably someone who's committed a sexual misd word rape, but you are effectively saying, I think you're probably someone who's committed a sexual misdemeanor. So you've got to go. Now you are condemning that young person. Only three people in this particular instance. Were you surprised

to hear that figure, Eleanor? Really surprised. So if the universities think that they've got a better way of dealing with this than the police and the criminal courts. It's pretty shocking that only three students, when one in four say that they, females say they've been. That was at Oxford University, to be fair, but this is a different university. I was giving an example. Well, it's pretty standard that these allegations are being made increasingly. So you think that figure is too low? Well, it is. And you talk about statistics, can I say, and this should be reassuring, and this is the problem with statistics. Once a case, a rape case gets to the Crown Court, the conviction rate is 75%. It's got to get there first, though. It's got to get there first, but it's 75%, which actually, even the police and criminal justice system has a better record than the university we just heard of.

It's high, certainly, but the problem is getting there. And that was even an issue that was apologised for by this government. And there has been many attempts to improve that. Professor Steve West, I'm sorry, I will bring in Geraldine again in just a moment. But it's not good enough at three three is the point from the argument here so well this is i think um where the kc actually is misrepresenting what we have said what we're dealing with are a small number of students who don't believe that they can go through the criminal justice system where they can we'll support them all the way through, so the courts will hear this. Let me just be clear. In 2022-23, we had 30 people come forward in terms of harassment,

23 sexual misconduct, and 11 sexual harassment. So these are relatively small numbers, and they're investigated. At the extreme end, we will support those students through the criminal justice system. So what we're dealing with are a different sort of student that doesn't want to go through the criminal justice system. And in terms of whether people are the right people to be hearing these, again, the KC is sort of assuming she understands what we do. It is chaired by a lawyer. It is chaired by someone who is well trained. And it is chaired in a way that allows the investigation to flow without aggressive cross-examination. And if we do have a barrister in, they assume the role of friend of the student. So do you welcome, may I just at this point, can I just ask, because it's important to hear from you as a vice chancellor, do you welcome students, if they can, bringing lawyers?

No, because if they're there as acting as a friend, they are not the lawyer wearing the lawyer's hat and the barrister's hat. They are there to support the student. They are not there to question either parties. And the difficulty we have when a situation arises where you have someone coming in, assuming that they are operating in a court of law, there is an imbalance, a really significant imbalance. And I don't think that helps either the student, either sets of students. We're simply not set up to run it as a court of law. Geraldine Swanson, that was a point you were making, but having also heard what Eleanor Laws has to say on this, what do you make of that?

Well, I just want to challenge one thing Eleanor said. She seems to suggest that universities have chosen to act as some kind of proxy criminal justice system. They don't actually have a choice. There was guidance for the sector and some case law several years ago that said, you know, if you have a blanket policy of not investigating sexual misconduct, that could amount to indirect discrimination. Guidance issued by the sector in 2016 said universities had a responsibility to investigate conduct that would otherwise amount to a criminal offence. Prior to that, universities could quite happily have said to a reporting student, sorry, we do not investigate these matters. That is exclusively the responsibility of the police. That era has now gone. Universities have to investigate. And I think creating an overly formalised, almost litigious adversarial process doesn't serve either the reporting or the responding student. you have a union rep. I would like to see properly trained students' union advocates supporting their students, both students responding

and reporting students to take out this excessive legalised formality. So that would be your addition to how things may develop. Let me put those points to Eleanor. Can I just say this? Then the point is made, whether or not the universities have had a choice in this is in fact irrelevant. They are now having to do it. And if, for example, they were having to investigate a murder case in some dystopian universe where there were so many murder charges that people weren't going to the police. We would seriously struggle with this. But can I just say overly formal is a persuasive word to try and suggest that lawyers are coming in and turning this into a battleground. What lawyers, if they read their own guidance, if universities read their own guidance, and some hearings are very fair to both parties,

and that's what should happen they should move forward and not stay with the same procedures that they had to deal with cheating and such like because the reality is if you are talking about imbalance on the one hand you have a university panel which we've just heard it's not my experience, but a highly trained, legally trained, certainly chair that have in fact consulted lawyers in terms of their procedures and in terms of what they say proves a sexual misdemeanor. about serious criminal offences without any advice. And the reality is neither the student or the parent know that in fact what is necessarily going to happen is notes are being taken of exactly what's being said, which could be used in future against him when he could face a sentence of imprisonment of about six years.

So there is a formality and a seriousness about this, which cannot be avoided. Eleanor, time is slightly against me, but to ask, because you said it's not been your experience, without getting into any of the details or names of that case, if we can, but what has happened in a case which hasn't gone like that? Can you give us a gist of what you're legally able to say? I have so many examples. But in a nutshell, I've had a chair who reluctantly allowed me to be there, reluctantly allowed me to submit five questions. Which side of this were you on? I was representing the male who was sitting there like a rabbit in the headlights, facing an allegation which had a number of problems with it, which they failed to see. They didn't actually ask any questions of the complainant. I asked if he would ask five. I didn't want to ask them myself. I could

put it in a neutral way. And the personal abuse that I got simply for submitting those questions was extraordinarily and quite frightening to the student. If I hadn't been there, no doubt he would have been asked a number of questions and the same result. Did the complainant, who I'm presuming is a woman in this case, a female student, did she have any representation? She wasn't there. She wasn't, sorry, within the process, even if she wasn't there.

So both sides had legal representation in the end, in a system that's not in a court. What was the upshot? He was excluded. And in fact, it's going to appeal as we speak because there were a number of problems. Appeal within the university. It's been appealed in the university

and it's now gone to the Independent Office of Adjudication. We have some questions, as you imagine, coming in. What qualifies these institutions to carry out these investigations, reads one. British universities seem to make up their own rules and then apply with no transparency. Having seen the lack of transparency, lack of communication and support and heavy-handed way that universities can act, if my son were accused of a serious sexual assault,

I would insist that he had legal support to go through a university-led investigation. Universities have no competence to handle these complaints internally. And so it goes on on those messages. I'm going to say thank you very much to Eleanor Laws, leading criminal barristers. A lot more to talk about, I can feel. But that's all we've got time for on this particular subject. Geraldine Swanson, thank you to you. Can I just give the final word to Professor Steve West on that particular message? What would you like to say to those who are listening to this who may come away feeling reassured but may also come away with more questions than answers? Well I think there are more questions still to be

answered. I think if we want to change the system we have to go back and engage in a much wider debate around what are the expectations of a university and how can a university be run if there is an expectation that we're actually running a criminal justice system. I don't think that's appropriate. Thank you for your time this morning. We have some statements to share. The Universities UK which is the voice of 142 universities across the UK said each incident of sexual violence on campus is one too many as part of their duty of care to students universities take reports of harassment violence or abuse very seriously and are committed to becoming safer places to live work and study. The University UK's changing the culture framework provides a series of recommendations for how universities can tackle sexual violence and other forms of harassment.

University UK's also produced follow-up guidance including a toolkit for senior leaders of best practice and practical steps to tackle sexual misconduct and harassment and we encourage our members to work with local partners including police, to tackle sexual violence and encourage reporting. A spokesperson for the Office for Students said, The Office of Students is currently reviewing responses to its consultation on regulating sexual misconduct in universities and colleges in England. We propose a set of steps that universities and colleges

would need to take to address and tackle sexual misconduct and appropriately support students affected by these serious issues. Thank you to all involved in that discussion. Now I have to say while you've been getting in touch about that you've also been getting in touch about my next guest a woman who doesn't really need much of an introduction but I did give her quite a large one this morning in terms of her daily routine. Let me tell you who's just walked into the studio, Dame Joan Collins, an actor who has dominated the stage and screen for over seven decades. Since starting her film career, aged just 17, she starred in countless iconic movies. Some of you might know her from the golden age of Hollywood cinema or the 80s TV phenomenon

Dynasty. And in recent years, she's found a whole new generation of fans for her role in the series American Horror Story. Having turned 90, she's written a new memoir, Behind the Shoulder Pads, Tales I Tell My Friends, and will be embarking on a nationwide tour to share memories from her career. Perhaps some of you will meet her on the road. Dame Joan Collins, welcome to the Woman's Hour studio.

Good morning. Hello, Emma. How are you? I'm all the better for seeing you. Oh, well, that's good. How old are you, by the way? 38. Oh, you look very good on it. I'm not sure. Do you like people talking about your age?

Well, it's something to celebrate, I hope. Oh, I don't know. No? I think it's just a number. Okay. Just a number. We'll go with that. Yeah.

I was really taken with what I read was your daily routine in a newspaper about what time you wake up and the eggs and the newspapers. So we've been asking our listeners. Are you talking about Celia Walden's piece? In the Daily Telegraph. That was tongue in cheek. I know, but it sounded great. She made it up.

It sounded like it was from you. I know. In fact, I'm kind of annoyed with her because she's a friend. And to say that, that I put on that and have eggs with caviar on, it was a joke. It was a joke. But it was a very bad joke, I think, because Emma, you took it seriously. I thought the Marabou featherbed jacket sounded fabulous. Do you not have one? Of course not. I mean, really? You look extremely glamorous on the front of this book and in person and i was

imagining it oh thank you well no it's not it's absolutely not true and i was going to call but i've been quite busy getting ready to do this tour and with my book behind the shoulder pads coming out tomorrow in the stores you know um there's been a lot going on so i haven't quite had a chance to say what are you writing? Well listen you've had a lot written about you over the years and what did seem to be true maybe not is that you like to read five newspapers a day and three in the morning and you like to be well informed. Two in the morning. Two? I'm going to get my facts straight okay let's proceed but it is part of some of what you've talked about is of course what it has been like to be you, to present as you, to the glamour of your life.

And a lot of women getting in touch to talk about that. And one of the questions was, what's it like being Joan Collins? It's like just being another person called Joan Collins. There is no big deal about being me. I mean, I am a very down to earth person. I had a great upbringing. I had perfect mother and father, strict father, loving mother. I was brought up to respect my elders and to take care of myself and to not expect anybody else to do things for you. I was brought up to eat properly, to exercise, to take care of myself, and to be a good person. And I think that that has held me up during these, you know,

70 years of working in cinema and theatre and TV. And I feel very strongly that one's upbringing is incredibly important. And that is why I'm feeling very sad for all those poor children who are poor. When I say poor, I don't mean poor. I mean, unfortunate children who were not able to go to school during the COVID epidemic, who were kept out of school because they have missed several years of the most important years of their lives, you know, I think. You're not someone who likes to talk politics though, are you? Well, that's not politics. Well, no, because a natural question after that, and I'm in the business of questions, is what do you want to do to see done about that? Did

you think lockdown was right? Oh, I don't think lockdown. I think that lockdown was totally overdone. I was very unhappy during lockdown, as were all my friends, as were my family. And I think that some of the countries that did not do it, like Sweden, for example, and I think that Florida, Florida and America, the state did not do it. And I didn't quite see the point. I think it was overkill. That's my opinion. It is your opinion, for which you are known for and here to share. Well, I think anybody with an ounce of intelligence has an opinion, don't they, Emma?

It seems to be. We can hear more and more of them these days. Yeah, well, that's good. I'm sure a lot of people won't agree with me, but you know something, that's too bad. Well, lots of teachers who which you're talking about you know felt that they were very grateful to to perhaps not be as exposed during that time but we we will carry on because something else that has been in the news and i'm sure you'll have a view on especially because what you've written about in your book is uh the allegations

against russell brand and that speaks to the entertainment industry. It speaks, all of which I should say, he has denied allegations of sexual misconduct, sexual assault, and rape as well. There is now a Met police investigation. Again, I will say he's denied all of those allegations. But it has brought to mind questions of power and consent between men and women, and certainly in the entertainment industry. What has been your reading of this in the last few days? Well, in my book, I talk about how I, as a very young girl, and even an older girl in my 20s, 30s, even 40s, was sexually harassed, if you will, by men in power,

whether they be actors that I was working with or directors who were directing me in a film or the heads of studios or producers. Men had felt that they had a divine right to take their pick of young, nubile actresses. And of course, there were plenty of those. And when I rebelled against this, which I did at a very early age because my father, who was an agent, was very, very smart in warning me of all the pitfalls and warning me about these men, you know, because they've existed from time immemorial. So it did not necessarily affect me, although it did upset me sometimes, of course.

And I did, unfortunately and stupidly, get raped when I was 18. And that was, well, I was also drugged and raped. And I write about that in my book. It was an unfortunate, very unfortunate incident. And it was unfortunately something that it seems to me is happening to a lot of young women and women and even men today. What was that like to write about? Cathartic. It's something that I pushed to the back of my mind because I have an attitude that if something bad happens to you, you think about it, you get it out of your system, you talk to your friends or your family, whomever, and then you bury it, you get rid of it, and you do not let it fester inside you. And so, unfortunately,

with this particular incident, I married the man because he happened to be my favourite movie star, my favourite English movie star. Did you manage to not let it fester as you say? I'm also struck by the word you used, I stupidly was raped. You know, that sounds like you're talking about how you feel about yourself at that time. I was 18 going on 11. I knew nothing about the world. I knew nothing about men. I'd never seen a naked man. I didn't know there was such a thing as rape. We didn't talk about it. Daddy, my father, just talked about men making passes, which I understood. And, well, I'm very descriptive about it in the book.

I won't go into it here. But, you know, I was taken to a place by him that I thought was a club. And he gave me a drink, and the drink was spiked. And, you know, that was taken to a place by him that I thought was a club and he gave me a drink and the drink was spiked. And, you know, that was it. But the thing that was interesting about this was I felt guilt about it. And because he then was incredibly regretful and charming and lovely after that, and eventually wanted to marry me about less than a year later. And I did because it had been drummed into me, you know, if you do the deed, you have to get married. I mean, it's such an old-fashioned concept, and I'm sure that young women of today will, you know, throw up their hands in horror and think of how ridiculous.

But, you know, we're talking about the 1950s, which was a long time ago, but even so it's really the modern age, as it were. It's not Victorian or Edwardian. No, no, but I think they'll also throw their hands up and want to maybe put their arms around you because it's a very hard thing for you to share. Yes, I know, exactly. No, it's done. It's done. I've written

about it and I can talk about it. And if I do talk about it, I hope that it can be of some help to any women who have had this horrific experience. But quite frankly, since I was drugged, I wasn't aware of what was going on. Just because it's about talking about your industry, the entertainment industry, a new independent standards body, the Creative Industry Independent Standards Authority, give it its full name, is being set up in the UK. It was already happening. But in light of the Russell Brand allegations, everyone has signed up to it and it's coming into fruition a bit.

It's been a bit hastened in its fruition. It's being set up so that concerns over behaviour within film, TV and theatre industries can be reported and investigated. Dame Joan Collins, what do you make of that? I think that's a great idea. And I hope that a lot of people will sign up for it. But by the way, I think that since you're not going to bring it up, I should bring it up. You know, I'm going on tour with... I was going to bring it up. Oh, you were? Oh, I didn't know that. Are you doing my questions now? I promise I'll get there. Okay.

But what were you going to say about going on tour? About what? What were you going to say about going on tour? Were you hoping to talk about... No, I was just going to say, well, yeah, that's why I'm here. Well, you're also here because you've written a book with stories in and talking about that and some of those stories, especially the ones which perhaps speak to listeners on Woman's Hour, is what we are hoping to go through. Your tour, I'm sure, will be a great time and place

for people to talk about some of those stories with you. Well, I will be talking about it. And I will also be answering questions about anything in my life, actually. And well, that's what I'm hoping to do here. And I think, you know, people watching reruns of your work, for instance, Light Dynasty, they still always perhaps want to hear a little bit about that. Do you like talking about that time of your life? Well, yes, of course. How do you look back on it now? Do you look back on it differently? Very fondly.

I mean, I loved playing Alexis Carrington Colby Dexter. I thought she was a great character and I enjoyed the rapport I had with so many of the actors. I mean, I thought it was, we'd been watching a few episodes because we got a box set and I hadn't seen a lot of them, you know, because I was travelling when they came out. So I missed a great many of them. But, you know, I enjoyed it.

Are you watching them for the first time then, some of them? Yeah, I'm watching it for the first time after 30-something years. You're watching some of Dynasty for the first time. I can't quite imagine that. It's true. And so is Percy, my husband. Really? Yeah.

And what do you make of your performance? I thought I was fabulous. Thank you. Well, so did millions of others. But it's always funny to see yourself and reflect. Yeah. No, I was quite, yeah, I think a lot of stuff went over the top, particularly the hats. And I think that the sad part of it is that they made a big mistake in doing a spinoff called The Colbys in which they took John Forsythe, Linda Evans and several of the others to be in a spin-off to try and make it better than Dynasty and what they did was that they sort of ruined Dynasty in a way. I wouldn't go into the Colbys,

I refused. I said I'm not, I'm going to be loyal to one show, I'm not going to go and, you know, disintegrate our show. No, well I think a lot of diehard fans would respect you, I'm sure did for that move just about your message around number and age we've got quite a few messages along that saying I'm with the legend Dame Joan Collins I turned 50 yesterday it is just a number says Diana

who's listening in North London but age was in the newspapers the other day with Angela Rippon on Strictly Come Dancing the oldest contestant apparently. Again, a fact I've been given at the age of 78, putting her leg by her ear. I don't know if you saw this. Oh, I saw it, yeah.

Well, I'm a huge fan of Strictly. I thought it was amazing. I saw her do it on the Eric Morecambe and Moyes show ages ago. Good for her. Strictly for you? Are you kidding? No. No way. I don't have Dame Joan Collins in the studio. I've been asked to do it several, no, there's no way. I have several friends

who went on things like that, like George Hamilton. He's still got the broken knee from it. Yes, there can be injuries. And there's another message here, which says, I want to say a huge thank you to Dame Joan. When I turned 18, that was some time ago, I'm 32 now, she sent me a signed photo wishing me a happy 18th. I have treasured it ever since. So there you go. I do have a question. She says, Joan is a British icon and famed for portraying very strong women.

I wondered, how does Joan handle the mantle of being a British icon? And what does she think Alexis would be doing now in the times we live in, in the times of the a British icon? And what does she think Alexis would be doing now in the times we live in, in the times of the Me Too allegations? She'd be running the country. Oh, she was a very strong woman. She had, you know, we're talking about the 80s now, which to, I mean, I'm sure of your younger listeners would think, you know, that's almost like talking about the 18th century. But people gave me a lot of shtick because I was playing a very empowered woman, a woman who wanted power, a woman who outdid men at the top of the heap, a woman who didn't care what people thought about her,

but at the same time dressed extremely glamorously and had an active love life. And many, many, many people thought it was hateful and didn't like it at all. And, of course, now young women are all, you know, going along the empowerment route and good for them. Well, before you leave us, I do have to ask you about your wit and humour, a lot of which is in this book, Behind the Shoulder Pads. Famously when asked, and you'll tell me if this is accurate, where if the 32-year age gap between you and your husband Percy worried you, you said, if he dies, he dies. What is the secret, Joan Collins, to a good quip?

A good quip? Yeah. You write them down first? You plan them? Are dies, he dies. What is the secret, Joan Collins, to a good quip? A good quip? Yeah. You write them down first? You plan them? Are you kidding? No, of course not. I think that you have to have a fast reflex in the mind, which I think I have.

And I did think about that one for a bit because I knew I was going to get asked a lot of questions about that. And I thought it was quite good. But we have been married now for 21 years and we are extremely happy, as everybody knows. And, you know, for those who said, oh, it'll never last, boo to you. The book is called Behind the Shoulder Pads. You can go and see Dame Joan Collins, as she's mentioned, on a tour around the country. But thank you for making a stop here at Woman's Hour.

Thank you. Thank you very much, Emma. Nice to see you. It's very nice to see you and have this conversation. Keep your messages coming in. I'm sure some of them will be for the legend that is Dame Joan Collins. But let me tell you about a new report that's out today in The Lancet, arguing for a feminist approach to cancer, aptly named Women, Power and Cancer. Let's talk to the woman behind the commission, in charge of the commission that's issued this,

Dr. Afira Ginsberg from the National Cancer Institute in America. Good morning. Good morning. What is a feminist, intersectional feminist approach to cancer? First, thanks so much for having me on the show feminist, intersectional feminist approach to cancer? First, thanks so much for having me on the show. An intersectional feminist approach to cancer means that we're looking really at the power dynamics that influence a woman's opportunities to prevent getting cancer, to understand her risks, to make decisions about her own health care as it relates to cancer prevention, screening and treatment, and also as it relates to women as providers of care. There's so much here to unpack. It's hard to know where to start.

It is, but it's headlines today, or one of the headlines is that such an approach could save 800,000 lives a year. That is something we've really got to try and understand. And you want to try and make change. Can you give us some tangible examples of how a woman, let's say here in the UK, but I know you've looked around the world, how her path should or could change when potentially facing this? So the 800,000 number comes from a study that we also published in the Lancet Global Health today in conjunction with the Lancet report. And that refers to the number of women's lives that could be saved from a premature death under the age of 70 if every woman everywhere had access to the optimal care.

And so we did that by looking at the best performing countries in terms of survival. We worked with an organization, it doesn't matter today, but the OECD, and we looked at how the best performers were doing. Right. And so this was an opportunity to take a deeper dive also into the numbers of cancers that could be prevented in the first place and women's lives that could be saved, 1.3 million saved to premature death if all women also had access to prevention and early detection. So what does that mean in terms of a woman in the UK, for example? Imagine a woman who might be structurally marginalized because of issues regarding poverty, race, ethnicity, her migration status. Perhaps she's living in a situation where there's intimate partner violence, and this can directly impact her opportunity, even with a public health system like the NHS, to actually get to care in a timely fashion and make it through her treatment pathway.

Stigma is also a major issue. And we cover this in the commission report in some cultures more than others. But this is in every country. Yes. And I know it differs. But when you talk about a feminist approach, you know, there'll be those listening who perhaps have got men in their lives who've got cancer or had cancer. And they'll be thinking, is this a different way of treating women or how does that work I just want to try and explain that because you're actually talking about how the systems are set up that's right so I'll start by saying this many people have asked us as we were putting this

commission together why women why not men Why not men? Don't men have a higher risk of cancer than women? And the truth is, yes, but. So men have just a bit more cases of cancer than women. About 48% of all new cases diagnosed every year globally happen in women and about 44% of deaths. But when we actually look at women under the age of 50, we see that two in three cases are occurring in women. And what does that mean for the women who leave behind children? We know that the global estimates in 2020 show us that about a million children in 2020 alone lost their mothers to cancer. So what does that mean for the economy and for society? So again, I'm looking at the top level approach. Let's think about the men in our

lives. Men are not the enemy, right? Feminism is really, as somebody once said, the radical notion that women are people, right? And intersectionality means that women in all their diversities, whether that's in terms of sexual orientation and gender identity or all the other things I mentioned. So we're hoping that this report will help ultimately people, regardless of gender, access better care, more respectful care, and they will better understand the causes of cancer for people of all genders by taking this approach. But it is called women, power, and cancer, you know, unequivocally. And I suppose what's driving that question is understanding why you chose to talk about a feminist approach. So again, feminism is really about looking at things from the perspective of equality and equity. And although one example I can give you is, you just had an excellent segment about sexual harassment and assault on this show. We haven't said enough about the degree to which cancer care providers, whether they're

professionals, nurses, physicians, community health workers, nurses, et cetera, also face a huge degree of sexual harassment, gender-based violence as well. It's not that men don't suffer these things, but we know that this happens much more in women. This can impact not only the agency women have to make decisions for themselves regarding health, but it also impacts on women's opportunities to reach their professional goals. If women are more in leadership positions, they're more likely to ask these kinds of questions, study them, and inform policy that can help everyone.

So this is also about those who work in the treatment side of things and their lives and how they're impacted by women. How are you, I mean, I'm just thinking, you know, when you do something global, I've never written a global report, I've never tried to do anything like this. So, you know, huge congratulations to you and your colleagues. But when you're trying to drill down then into making changes, which is what you want with publishing something like this and heading up a commission, I'm thinking locally now in the UK about an NHS where we've had a great deal of strikes. A lot has been talked about staff morale and also what's happened to patients who have not been able to get their cancer

treatment or certain appointments or diagnosis. I mean, I'm sure that could be argued because the NHS has continued to provide a level of service. It's sometimes called a Christmas Day level of service. So there's a provision there. But just putting that aside, you can see what I'm saying, where it's health service under pressure. And you are saying what to those people and how can you change it? Well, when it comes to the public health infrastructure, I would say in every country, we need to do better. We need to better fund our public health systems to address the cancer, really the cancer epidemic, which is a global problem and a problem in every country. So that in a way is a related issue. When you think about the importance of primary care in most situations,

most countries, there's a lot that can and should be done and is done at the primary care level to help women and men and children, for that matter, reach the higher levels of care to recognise cancer at the earliest stages, for example. If we continue to underfund primary care, which in many places is primarily supported by women, actually, we'll go a long way. There you go. Well, I'm going to have to leave you on that thought due to my time nearly being up. Dr. Ifeira Ginsberg, thank you. And huge thanks to all of you. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Nick Robinson. I want to tell you about my Radio 4 podcast, Political Thinking. It is about why people think the things they think. What is it in their lives, their backgrounds, that explains who they are and what they believe? My mum was a very community-minded person. That's what brought politics to life for me, actually. These are conversations, not newsy interrogations. Lucky, ruthless, probably a bit of

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