Woman's Hour - Dame Kelly Holmes, Cabinet reshuffle, Debenhams picketers

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

The four top jobs in Rishi Sunak’s new cabinet have all been filled with men. It’s the first time this has happened since 2009. To unpack what this means, Emma Barnett is joined by Baroness Kate Fall, former deputy chief of staff to the newly appointed Lord Cameron, and Executive Editor of Politico Anne McElvoy. Double Olympic champion Dame Kelly Holmes spoke publicly about her sexuality for the first time in June last year. Her new memoir, Unique, details how serving in the military in the late 1980s - when it was illegal to be gay in the military – was a major factor in contributing to her decades-long silence. Dame Kelly joins Woman’s Hour to speak about her experience and what it meant to hear the Government’s apology to LGBT veterans. In April 2020, Debenhams in Ireland closed all 11 of its stores, informing its staff they had been let go in the process. What ensued were pickets and protests across Ireland that lasted for 406 days, 24 hours a day and through all weathers. As a new film is released on the subject in the UK, Emma is joined by Carol Ann Bridgeman who worked for Debenhams for 15 years and Jane Crowe who worked there for 23 years. Karuna Nundy is an advocate at the Supreme Court in India and has been leading legal campaigns to criminalise marital rape and to legalise same-sex marriage. She was named one of Time Magazine’s 100 Most Influential People of 2022 and will be giving a speech on her career tonight at the Institute for Development Studies. She joins Emma to discuss her role in these high-profile cases.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Yesterday, as we came on air, David Cameron was confirmed as the UK's new Foreign Secretary, the start of one of the more surprising cabinet reshuffles in recent times. Everything was changing as I was talking to you and those changes kept coming throughout the day. But one fact did remain that I mentioned yesterday as it was happening. I didn't know how it was going to end up, which is for the first time in 14 years since 2009, the Prime Minister does not have a single woman around his top, top table, the big four offices of state. When I mentioned this as a possibility yesterday, while the reshuffle was live,

some of you expressed concern, distaste. Some of you bemoaned the removal of Suella Braverman as Home Secretary, the former most senior woman in government. Some of you were also positively rejoicing at her removal. But others amongst you made the point that the sex of the ministers did not matter a jot. What matters is their ability to do the job. We've approached the government this morning about the thinking behind who represents us at Rishi Sunak's cabinet table. The first meeting of

that newly assembled squad is happening this morning and I've been told a cabinet minister will be joining me tomorrow so I look forward to that. But in the meantime, throwing this open to you, the woman's our cabinet as it were, indulge me, go on. Do you feel represented by those chosen by Rishi Sunak? And do you feel the ability is there? If that's what matters to you, and that's what you were getting in touch about yesterday, where are you in terms of representation? And as some of you have said, if you are irked, if you are one of those who's irked by the number of men now making those top, top decisions in those top ministries of state. Do you feel or think perhaps that the failed premiership of Liz Truss,

lasting only 49 days, has given some cover to Rishi Sunak to bring back the old guard and the boys club, as it were? If a woman fails, is it more of a thing than when a man fails? David Cameron, of course, fell on his sword over the referendum and being on the losing side of it. But he's back. Text me here, 84844. Could a woman make a similar move?

Would they? Should they? Some of you said yesterday you wanted Theresa May back. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Email me through the website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note on 03700 100 444. Just watch those charges, all terms and conditions on our website. Also on today's programme, you are going to hear from one of our most successful

athletes, Dame Kelly Holmes, on a new first for her, and the remarkable story, and it really is, of two women who worked at Debenhams for many, many years and refused to be taken, to take, sorry, being taken, sacked by email to take that just as read.

In fact, they went the other way and launched one of the most extraordinary protests and picket lines and they protested for 406 days. We'll be hearing from those women a bit later on in the programme, so stay with us for that. But the last time the four great offices of state were held by men, the situation, you may remember, only lasted 11 months. It was some time ago, many years ago, in fact, the idea of jobs for the boys around the cabinet table. Let's get to that because some have also pointed out, I should say, that we do have a female health secretary, Victoria Atkins, but right now, the Chancellor, the Foreign Secretary, the Home Secretary and

the Prime Minister are all men, the top jobs. You are getting in touch and please do so about whether you feel represented. My first guest this morning knows all about those cabinet meetings and the newest old boy too. She is Kate Fall, now a Baroness, a title she was given because of her job as Deputy Chief of Staff for one David Cameron. Good morning, Kate. Good morning, Emma. How are you welcoming your former boss to the House of Lords? Because he's hastily had to become Lord Cameron as well as the Foreign secretary in order to be the foreign secretary because he isn't a sitting MP?

Is there a party planned? Not that I know of, but I don't think he'll be spending that much time in the House of Lords. I think he'll be spending a lot of time abroad trying to deal with some of these very difficult problems. You know, Middle East, Ukraine, Russia, rising tensions with China. There's a lot on his plate. Let's come to David Cameron in a moment, if I can. I wonder how it strikes you about no women in those top, top positions as someone who has watched power and advised power up close.

Yeah, look, ideally, there would be a woman in one of those jobs. I can see what happened yesterday, though. Rishi obviously wanted to stay in his own job. Jeremy Hunt, he didn't want to move your autumn statement coming up next week and once he decided um to reach out to David Cameron and get and ask Suella to leave that was an obvious move for for Cleverley so unfortunate but I still think that it was a an extremely good reshuffle I think the Cameron uh the Cameron appointment was an excellent one. And we do have

some strong women, as you mentioned, into Vicky Akins and people like Laura Trott. But yeah, in an ideal world, it would have been good to see a woman in the top job, one of the top jobs. Do you think Liz Truss's premiership messed up those chances in any way or was in mind when Rishi Sunak takes that move and gives him some cover? I don't, but I think that you raise a good point, which is, you know, when a man messes up, people don't go and say, let's not have any men for a while. And when a woman has a high profile for like Liz Truss, there tends to be all women in politics, you know, sigh. So I do feel that's completely wrong, by the way. But I do

think there was a little bit of that around. No, but I ask as well, because I mean, and we're going to get to this, and let's start getting to this. You talk about the Cameron position being appointment rather being a good thing. I mean, it has been some years now since he had to fall on his sword and he had to resign because he lost the referendum he gave to the people. And there are, you know, sometimes reactions around whether that is right for him to be back because of that, whether he can be trusted. There have also been other stories about him in the intervening years that may give people reason to think he's not the best person to be back. And I wonder if a woman could make such a comeback after such a fall. Well, look, I mean, he left government because he argued

a different path for the referendum. But the referendum he had put to the people to make a decision about a very important issue, which is our mandate with Europe and whether we wanted to stay in. So, you know, he just, he argued a different way. I think he was... It was the prime minister. He didn't just argue a different way.

He lost. Yeah, I mean, he lost the argument and he therefore left. But that sort of mess up, that I lost the argument. Isn't that the biggest mess up you can have in recent political history? No, I don't think it is. Look, he put to the country a question, a democratic question, and the country chose to go the other way yes but but sorry just if i met if i may but by doing that you can position it how you are and i'm not going to spend long on this i promise because i recognize we've had many of these discussions but by doing that um you are effectively on the losing side of the argument the people did not back the prime minister the main point is is that he offered the country a chance to make a decision about a very, very important political issue.

He, yes, argued the other way. And when he lost that argument, he resigned. And I think that was an honourable thing to do. And I think having someone like him with huge experience on the world stage at this time when the world is in a very difficult place is a good thing. Just around that then, I mean, looking at the last time we had these four great offices of state held by men, it was a situation that didn't last very long. It was in the, just to remind people, it was after Alan Johnson replaced Jackie Smith

as Home Secretary in the dying days of Gordon Brown's Labour government. Do you think that's the same pattern here? This is the final days of an administration. Let's just throw what we can at it. No, look, I think obviously there is an election next year. So we have to wait and see how that election turns out. But at the end of the day, you've got Jeremy Hunt, who is a strong Chancellor. You've got David Cameron, I think is going to be an excellent Foreign Secretary, Rishi, the Premier, and we'll see how James Cleverley does in Home Office. We've got a big day tomorrow. So we shall see what happens.

I mean, how bad does a party have to be in terms of the options? You've got to go back three prime ministers to get your foreign secretary when you've got a stonking majority. Are there no other MPs you think who could do it? No, but there is a tradition of bringing people back. I mean, I know it's not exactly the same, but William Hagan, he did the Tory party and he came back as shadow foreign secretary and then foreign secretary. Ian Duncan Smith led the party and went on back as shadow foreign secretary and then foreign secretary in Duncan Smith led the party and and went on to have a um a top role in government later so this is and you know Peter Mandelson so I mean this isn't unprecedented no no it's not unprecedented it's just some would say

there's a lot of people there must be a lot of you know capacity or talent to do it that's just what you know some have talked. And the idea of it being the final days of administration was also something that's raised. Can I just read you a couple of messages coming in? It's good to have you on the programme. It's disappointing that there are

no women in senior roles, but Liz Truss reads this message. Nadine Dorries, Therese Coffey, Priti Patel, Suella Braverman, not a great result for women, reads this message. What's your response to that as a Conservative pair?

Well, look, I said at the beginning, I think, you know, having more women in the cabinet is a good thing, but you also, people are there on their talent and their ability. And Toella Braverman,

I think, could not stay in post. I think it was the right decision to ask her to leave. And just to say that the only letter of no confidence, I believe, that's gone in at this point as I'm talking to you for Rishi Sunak, if you like, with the 1922 committee meeting this evening, those committee of backbench Conservative MPs, which we have got more familiar with, shall we say, as the Conservative prime ministers have come thick and fast in the last few years, is a woman.

It's Andrea Jenkins. Do you feel that there is a concern? Do you have any concern looking across your party as to whether there could be a bit of a civil war brewing there? And interestingly, it's been first letters gone in from a woman. Well, look, I mean, I don't think it's brewing yet, but I think there will be a sense of, you know, there are, Suella does have her support in the party. There will be people who feel sore about her leaving. And I'm sure we will hear from her and some of her supporters over the next few weeks. Are you one of those supporters?

Is that where you come out in this party? What, in support of Suella? Yes. Are you someone who was... Absolutely not. Why not? Because I think that she uses language which is divisive and ugly. And at the end of the day, her job was...

Her own aims were to stop the boats and bring down migration. She didn't do either. She just used her maybe sometimes ugly language as a distraction, in my view. And I think that therefore competence and language, I think that she is best having left. And just finally on David Cameron, as his former deputy chief of staff, people have talked about him needing purpose, having only left office unexpectedly to him much earlier than he thought he would. And you've talked about what you feel is your confidence in what he'll be able to do. A very difficult time to take on this brief, a very important time to have somebody who is capable with the wars that are going on in the world right now. But is this about also him repairing some kind of legacy? Because he is

known, yes, there are other things he did, but he is mainly known for having to leave because he was on the wrong side of his own referendum. Well, look, I think that he's somebody who believes in public service and given the opportunity to try and do something for the country again. I mean, he wasn't going to say no. It's a huge honour for him. And I think he's extremely pleased. Thank you for talking to us this morning. Baroness Kate Fall there. We're going to talk to Anne McElvoy now, the executive editor of Politico and host of the Powerplay interview

podcast and host of a very interesting sounding programme coming up after I finish on air this morning as well on Radio 4 with a quirk of scheduling there. Anne, good morning. Morning. It's good to get a double hit of Anne McElvoy today. Yeah, double shot. Double shot. Let's do it. What was your reaction just first, if I may, on the decision around women?

We've got a couple of messages coming in around saying some disappointment around this and then a message here actually from one of our male listeners. Steve said, good morning. Rachel Reeves, Angela Rayner, Yvette Cooper, Lisa Nandy, Emily Thornby, Jess Phillips, Stella Creasy, hopefully will soon have many fantastic female politicians sat around the cabinet table. Where do you come in on this point, Anne? Well, I think it's taken Labour quite a long time to get to that blessed place in fairness, but they have.

And they've also, one of the things you can do in opposition them is you can try people out and there's been a fair amount of change before we got to what looks like a reasonably steady state around Keir Starmer's table but you have to give credit where it's due and it's a fair point that that your caller makes there I would say on the government I agree with Kate Fall to one extent I think this was kind of emergency times call for smash glass measures. And Rishi Sunak wanted to stabilise his top team. He wasn't really in the mood to think about diversity in many forms. What I feel a bit more sore about, because I've just seen this pattern repeated, as you've probably figured out, because I've been doing on Women's Hour a few years talking about politics it just keeps happening there's a default mode Rishi Sunak is in it now and it's when things go wrong call for the grown-ups oh that turns out to

be at the top level the men and what he hasn't really attended to I think is the pipeline I'm just looking what Kemi Badenoch as Secretary of State for Business in his cabinet, who's very supportively on the behalf of Rachel McLean, who was dropped as a housing minister. I think she was thought to be a very good housing minister. You know, that's the level. It's not starry. They're not going to be the people who are often coming on shows like this, but who do a lot of the work in the background. And that's your pipeline to get to the next level. She's the 16th in 20 years as a housing minister. She was doing well. She's clearly got support from Kemi Bejanot there in the cabinet.

She's disappointed to be ousted. And I think that's where it's more like the careless dropping of women, I object to. It's interesting as well to look through how many they've been in certain roles and that turnover and what levers are being reached for. Rosemary's just texted in, he's listening in Somerset, good morning. I back Suella Braverman all the way. She is voicing the opinions of many people and hopefully will rise to the top in this government. She has the fire in her belly that is lacking at present. That is a view that's not held by everybody, but it is a view and it is

a view we heard quite a few times yesterday. And I wanted to just come back to that around that unity in the party at the moment. And what do you think about that and whether this will mean quite a significant repositioning of Rishi Sunak in what could be his final act ahead of the election? Well, I think it is. I think you're absolutely right to read it that way. I do understand what your correspondent is saying that there was fire in the belly of Suella Bradman. You could say rather too much in her use of language. It depends how you feel about that sort of thing. I think where she sort of had a point was that there was a bit of an invisibility cloak around unpleasant things that were going on at the demonstrations. And people who get very committed tend not to want to see that there may be marching alongside or somewhere alongside them. The people say very reprehensible things which can either are or can come off as anti-Semitic. So you're talking about the pro-Palestinian marches there?

Lost balance in the pro-Palestinian marches. I think a lot of people did think she had a point with that. For me, she kind of lost it when at every point she kind of dialed it up more and more, which started to look like she liked the fight and the kind of culture war more than she was trying to find the solution. And I think that is really what did for her with Rishi Sunak too. It does rebalance the cabinet much more away from that form or disposition of argument. Some people will say it's a bit wet letters. But at the same time, you know, this is a very heated period.

And sometimes the first rule of politics at the top level is do no harm. So I think for that extent, it's probably right that she went. Remember also that we've talked or touched on Liz's trust that there is a right of the party, which would like to take on Rishi Sunak probably will now do so in the event likely or otherwise of a conservative defeat but the sort of trust sites who are on the economic right and the more sort of culture where are we going this cannot go on like this kind of Suella Braverman right are not always the same people and they don't always agree particularly on economic matters. But it's not clear that they have a unified position to challenge Rishi Sunak or indeed, you know, who comes out of it a year or so down the line. Also, just to try and figure this out, because what I'm interested in, and I asked right at the beginning, and we're getting lots of response

around who do you feel represented by this cabinet? Do you feel it's there? How do you think this will play with voters finally, Anne, as we go towards an election? Because, you know, the red wall, the blue wall, there's lots of walls here. But what calculation has been made using the data that Rishi Sunak will have at his disposal as to which way this sort of move will go? He thinks that having David Cameron there will be attractive in the blue wall. There's not enough, if you like, of Rishi Sunak to go around. The top level is very thin when it comes at being able to go out, talk, campaign. He's hoping that having David Cameron, whatever you say about David Cameron,

you know, many weaknesses, many pratfalls along the way. But he still has a bit of stardust in the same way Tony Blair has. It's a warts and all, do you like and do you not like? It doesn't matter. People will turn out to see him, whether it's a broader at home. And I think Rishi Sunak thinks that will help him campaign, particularly in southern seats where he needs to stop the Labour advance and keep the Lib Dems at bay. So he thinks he's got another very big utility player that he can throw onto the electoral pitch.

Anne McElvoy, thank you so much for that. And looking forward to the programme a bit later on on Radio 4. What's that about again? Oh, it's about Italy. It's about Giorgio Meloni's Italy. There you go. Another powerful woman. The extraordinary woman is having on Italian politics. There's a powerful woman. Well, if that isn't linking up Radio 4, I don't know what is. I will have just got a nice brownie point with the people who

control this network, which are not me, but I aim to be honest and entertain and talk to my fellow presenters, and I've just done that with Anne McElvoy. Many messages coming in. If Suella Braverman is the best woman we can come up with in government, we should hide in shame. The Conservative government is totally bankrupt. We need a change.

Another one here saying, please stop referring to her as Suella. It's pure sexism. I'm not sure I did, but I apologise if I did. I have been using her surname. Perhaps we did in conversation. That does happen. But yes, I take that point. You wouldn't keep referring to David Cameron as David from Joe. Well, he likes Dave, doesn't he? Lord Cameron now, as it will be.

I back Suella all the way. He reads another one here. And Leslie says in York, hello. Please stop banging on about why no women are at the top of government. As in all walks of life, jobs should be filled by who is best, not chosen by their gender. Well, that is something we're debating, Leslie, and you're very clear on one side. I want to say we're banging on about it. We're observing the reality of a cabinet and the makeup of it.

And we look forward to hopefully talking to a cabinet secretary tomorrow, a secretary of State, that will be part of the programme, I hope, tomorrow morning from the government. Keep your messages coming in. But let's talk to somebody else who actually has been having some impact with the government very recently, but also someone you will know for her prowess in athletics, the Olympic champion Dame Kelly Holmes, who last Friday was on the red carpet, which no big deal

for one of this country's most decorated athletes, having won seven gold, eight silver, four bronze Olympic, Commonwealth and European medals throughout her athletic career. Except this red carpet appearance came with a bit of a difference. It was the first time she'd done something like that with her girlfriend, Lou Cullen, by her side. Kelly Holmes first spoke publicly about her sexuality only in June of last year. She talked so movingly. I remember reading this and watching the subsequent documentary of crying with relief that she could now be openly gay. She's put some of those feelings and some more stories in a book called Unique, which tells her experience of serving before she was in athletics in that world, in the army in the late 80s where it was

illegal to be gay in the armed forces of position until very recent indeed and the olympic champion then went on to testify as part of the lgbt veterans independent review which made 49 recommendations to the government we've covered this story on the program before the first of which was an apology from the prime minister of the day, and that was Rishi Sunak, issued in July last year. And she also encouraged LGBT veterans to take part in the review. Dame Kelly Holmes, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me on. Lovely to have you. You've been busy, as ever.

Not a woman to stay still. That red carpet moment, may we start there? Yes, if we must. But it was a moment, I imagine imagine for you uh on this on this journey that you've been on to to be more yourself publicly um yeah yeah to obviously I've been to many red carpets in my time as I'm sure you've been and yeah it was just nice to be able to take my partner and to not feel embarrassed or worried and here to actually be in a photo it's probably like a couple of times we've done that very, very recently.

But yeah, it was a nice moment. I bet. And, you know, when I talked about the fact that I feel like it was longer ago that you talked openly about your sexuality because I remember it so well. But it's also pretty recent for you that you have been talking like this. How are you finding it? And now you've got the book oh well um yeah so last year I did my documentary Kelly Holmes being me and that was only June 2022 and now I've written my book now the thing is why I've written the book really is to is to document almost like that journey the motive journey behind me coming out because I actually did my autobiography back in 2005 with another chapter, I think, in 2008.

But there's been such this gap, which I've done a lot. But I think even in that other autobiography... Which you mustn't have mentioned any of this, really. No, no, no. Oh, gosh, no. So the thing is in that other autobiography, of course, I talked about my life and my athletics career and everything that built up to becoming that double Olympic champion. And then I opened up about having the mental health problems, which nobody in the public eye was talking openly about mental health. And I remember when that first book come out, it came in a paper the next day.

Oh, you know, then it was not talked about at all again. And then it was only in 2017 that we started picking up that narrative now the thing is my life has been full of a lot of mental health problems because of one the absolute die-hard focus i had as an athlete to become the person i wanted to be because it gave me validation and an identity and purpose. But also because of the fact that I was suppressing who I was as a person, when you're looking behind your back, when you're worried what people might say, when you think you might get judged or you've got caught out, you're just holding that back. And that caused me a life of mental health problems. And 34 years of living in fear because I served in the military also

didn't help. No, because your job is tied to that as well. Your ability to have your security and have your position. Yeah. So a couple of things. The reason why I only came out last year is I lived with this whole trauma in my mindset of fear. And the fear was basically stood to the fact that I served in the military for nearly 10 years. And during that time, I realized that I was gay. I mean, I didn't when I joined, I joined as a teenager, people were exploring their sexuality. And basically, there was a law in place for anyone in the LGBT community, so against homosexuality. And I was fearful of losing my career, because I loved my career. And the whole point was, is that fear really ingrained so much anxiety. And like, I was so scared of what the repercussions were of losing my job that I had to keep it in.

At the same time, I then became a world-class athlete. No one talked about being gay. I had no role modeling in sport. So again, I didn't tell anyone. Then I become a celebrated athlete, you know, put on the pedestal, two gold medals in 2004. No one else had done it. And then I thought, oh my my god what if someone outs me someone that knew me in the army someone that I'd been out with that fear then carried on what I'm

19 years retired now so it took 18 years of that worry of somebody outing me for me to then do what I did last year and yeah it's been a roller coaster ride I'm not gonna lie are you are you you can't be over it, but are you in a, where are you up to with that? Because that's going to take a long time to unpick in some ways or not. Yeah. So obviously having the freedom to come out. So when I say this, what people, again, I hope could understand.

And the reason why I wrote the book wasn't just about me saying me, it's about how I can message things to people. So the is that you know I'm 39 plus 14 I don't like the aging bit um I don't feel I ever lived my life just being me you know happy and the fact is that I feel that there's a lot of people I lived through society and generation where it was very taboo we had section 28 where it was against the law in the in you know the UK to be gay let alone the army ban that only got lifted in 2000 and I feel that a lot of people have lived in society in generations where they conformed to what that went because they didn't know any different it wasn't talked about now people are realizing that life is for them to live not for living for other people and like me it's like hold on I want to be me I want to be able to not have a conference watch

every word that I say to someone go out for a coffee and a lunch with people that I've known for years because I don't mind how if they ask me about my relationships I never did that and so what happened was in lockdown I mean so many many people dealt with lockdown in so many ways, didn't we? You know, some had a lovely summer holiday. It was beautiful during that time. And I originally did. And then I went through some really, really dark days. And that led me to choose to live or to not. And I decided that the only way to really feel me was to be able to publicly announce that I'm a gay woman because I am in the public eye.

But do it in a way that told the background to the trauma of not doing it and how fear can be so debilitating. What was it about lockdown that made you face that? So, well, firstly, my mum passed away in 2017. And I'm sure there's listeners that dealt with bereavement so bad. And it literally destroyed me. My mum passing away, like, tore a piece of my heart. It's never been fixed. And I remember her always wanting me just to be me, to say, like, live your life, you know.

And on the day of her funeral, I had my first undercut, because I thought, I she can't live, I've got to live, but I didn't know how to articulate what was inside. So anyway, lockdown come, I submersed myself into work, because I started having this narrative of, like, I just want to breathe, I just want to feel free. And I got the first bout of COVID. I'm laying on my sofa for three weeks. And I kept watching, you know, the terrible news that we were seeing. I'm thinking, when I die, all my friends and family, who I'm very lucky, I must say, who have supported me all the way, I thought to myself, they can talk to people about me and say, oh, wasn't it a shame she couldn't live her life? And I thought, that's my right. I suddenly got this real sense of complete breathlessness,

of anxiety, of thinking, I've got to do something about this. Anyway, I put myself into work. I'm on the screen. I'm a motivational speaker. I do all this talk. I do mental health awareness. And I remember this one morning, picked up my laptop, and I was meant to do a mental health talk.

And I had to tell them. And I suddenly went, I'm not in a good good place I don't know if I can do this I was filling up welling up and I had 500 people on the screen you know and I'm thinking I put the laptop down and I took 10 months off of my professional work because I had burnout because I'd suppressed these feelings the narrative was so strong I had to do it anyway I got to a point very quickly one night I saw I became a self-harmer in 2003 because of the trauma that I was feeling from my affidavit career that identity I put myself in I didn't self-harm the last day I did was the day my mother died I then had this urge to go downstairs and to do more than just that and this one night I held myself back terrified of seeing my almost my spirit doing

whatever and it made me start to shake myself to I have to speak to someone professional I've got to get help and I've got to sort of change the way I'm doing it and not be afraid and that change has allowed me to talk authentically and open to hopefully to not be scared of what people think of me anymore I'm never ever going to be scared what people think of me because it's your problem not mine if you judge me if you cheered me on running around that track with two gold medals of Great Britain stand on that rostrum in the National Anthem playing, and I made you proud, me telling you you're gay, shouldn't change that.

But now I can talk and hopefully help others with my work. Thank you for being so honest because lockdown, you know, and we should say, you know, a lot of people are still really restricted if they're immunocompromised, and I never want to forget them. But the lockdown that we went through as a nation, where it was at that point, you know, so many people, restricted if they're immunocompromised and but the but but and I never want to forget them but the the lockdown that we went through as as a nation where it was at that point you know so many people I do think had to confront things that you can run away from when you've got loads of

stuff in the diary lots of things on it was a reckoning and I think when we look back on that as well as trying to digest the impact on children and all sorts of other areas of life that were so disrupted as well as of, the loss of life. I do think that'll be one of the things because it's a bit of a theme and a trend, Kelly, when I talk to people. But just because you talked about your mum there and you do talk about the loss of her in this book, in your writing very powerfully. Did she know you were gay? Yeah.

Yeah, she did. Yes, very much so. And she always wanted me to live my life. She always used to say because she's, you know, the people that are close to you see the tears and everything and the worry about who you are. And, you know, she was always worried about me because in my public demeanor, I'm very, you know, I am a powerful woman. I'm never going to put myself down again like I did before I am a powerful woman but that does not mean you can have those personal kind of uh issues inside you no but we know that right yeah no but I asked because it must be strange for you to be doing now what you couldn't do when she was here you know I wonder what her reaction would be that you are that you are doing this do you think about that for sure and I think you know people have lost somebody that's really had that affinity I wonder what her reaction would be that you are doing this. Do you think about that? For sure.

And I think, you know, people have lost somebody that's really had that affinity and closeness. They see signs like I put butterflies in mine and I know she is with me. I know it. And that gives me that sense of, I don't know, like I said about not being able to breathe. I just know she'd be so happy and proud of me and that's one thing that drives me.

But I think the other drive is that I know that my words have made a lot of difference to people, other people, veterans who I was part of the review and pushing to get veterans to come forward to tell you how it was for them to be mistreated with the world that they lived in. Because it's so recent as well, you know, that the ban was lifted. You know, I talked to two women who were brilliant the other day who had a terrible time in the military. They've actually now backed together in a relationship together.

It was the loveliest conversation. But it is just so recent. Yeah, so recent. I mean, so we had the Prime Minister today. An apology. An apology...in Parliament, and, you know, he's quote, for the horrific historical treatment of LGBT people who served in the military, you know, under the ban.

And he had mentioned today, on behalf of the British state, I apologise. Now, what that does is, of course, give some people that validation and that feeling of pride that I actually did serve and it's got recognised. But it didn't take away the hurt of all of those years of people that lost their jobs, their medals, their livelihoods, their careers. However, the 49 recommendations that have been put in place for that review, of course, are now sitting with the ministers, they need to move forward because mod is ready to action this between the services

but you know some of them have been coming back medals berets some were some you know veterans were parading at the remembrance sunday which is a mass you know massive for so many people to feel oh my gosh i've got me back again yeah i mean i bet you never thought you'd see that in some ways no i mean i think i did one last year but it was very quiet but this year it was you know kind of made a thing that they could be there and proud and recognized in their service because these are service people that join like I did because of their absolute want to be a soldier and some had fought in the front line etc etc and because of their sexuality were deemed to not be good enough to be soldier. But anyway, the recommendations are a really great step forward for that change.

And for so many people who have suffered a life of mental health problems. Kelly, can I just ask while I have you and there are some lovely messages coming in. You know, a woman has said, my heart is breaking to hear Kelly Holmes talk about her struggle, the fear and shame about her sexuality, how terrible that she and many others would judge for being themselves. She's an inspiration. Please pass on my absolute admiration for her. And that ends with a couple of kisses from one of our listeners. Oh, thank you. No, no.

Well up. But, you know, it will touch a lot of people. But it's striking to me. It's not perfect yet. But in women's sport, of which there have been so many advances, what could change or what might need to happen for men to be also open in men's sport? Yeah, it's a shame, isn't it? Because as we've moved on, like you say, women's sport is massive now. You know, I think the Lionesses had a great deal in that the last couple of years because they're authentically themselves, no matter where they're from or what they do and who they are, which is lovely. But in men's sports, of course, there's always still going to be that sort of matriarchal behaviour of that fear of what the, again, bullying, bigotry, judgement will be if a male athlete's announcing. Now, of course, there's been some fantastic guys

that have come out over the years, but very, very, very few. And I think the problem is, is what we have to realise, and those that are competing in sport, is that men suffer with mental health problems a huge amount. I mean, there is a mass amount of mental health problems for men. Now, the problem is, is because they don't have yet the freedom, the platform, feel that confidence in just saying how they feel and what is stopping them talking about it. So the thing is in sport, it's about power.

It's about excellence. It's about, you know, I've got to be part of a team. Now that doesn't mean that you should then suppress your feelings in that because being somebody from the community, let's say, doesn't stop you being a fantastic sports person because what that takes. Yeah, but you know, and you know exactly what that says but you know making that jump is just huge and and I mean it's huge and so that's it isn't it it's it's massive it is that thing it's the fear of the unknown like and I can definitely sit here and say the fear that I had for 34 years was not worth the fear after I got that point. When the day I was able to

actually publicly, very hard and took a lot of time to get the words out my mouth, say I was gay, the relief was enormous. It didn't just change because of course, you can't just change a narrative overnight. You can't not be scared overnight. But through this year, I can say to people, what it allows you to do is to live your life and be you. And everyone deserves to be that. Dame Kelly Holmes, always good to talk to you. Thank you very much for coming on. The book's called Unique, and I think we can agree you are. So we'll just go with that.

And it's a good title. All the best. Thank you so much. Many more messages coming in on that. and also a couple coming in on politics. I thought it was interesting to pick this one up because it's just come before me, but also the word machos in it. We were just talking about macho sports, sportsmen and the idea of that. My thoughts on the last two female Home Secretaries. We're talking Suella Braverman, but then Priti Patel before.

And of course, before that was Theresa May, and you've had Amber Rudd. There's been a lot of women in that post. They're doing women in politics a disservice. But I think you're talking about Priti Patel and Suella Braverman. Why do they have to be more macho than their male counterparts? Come on, women, we're better than that.

Where is the calm voice of reason in a male-dominated environment? There are so many better ways to make a point than outladding the lads, reads that message. So thank you very much for that. just to say um dame kelly was talking about the government there and the response to the lifting of the ban of the armed forces and to be gay in the armed forces government spokesperson said we are proud of our lgbt veterans and grateful for their service and in defense of our nation the treatment of lgbt serving personnel pre-, because it was 2000 when it was lifted eventually, was wholly unacceptable and does not reflect today's

armed forces. We have accepted in principle the vast majority of that report. We were talking about recommendations, the 49. Many of the recommendations are complex. It is vital the government carefully considers its delivery to ensure the best outcomes for those affected. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now to my next guests. I promised you a remarkable story. They are two former shop workers from

Ireland who did something incredible. And remember, the majority of retail workers are still women. When they were suddenly let go from their jobs, horrible news delivered via email, they took on not just their employer, Debenhams, but the police, the liquidators and the courts in order to get what they felt they deserved. In April 2020, not long after the pandemic began, taking your mind back

there again, Debenhams in Ireland closed all 11 of its stores, informing staff they'd been let go in the process. What ensued were pickets and protests by the workers and their families across Ireland that lasted 406 days, 24 hours a day, through all weathers. The dispute was over redundancy pay and the 700-odd staff, the vast majority of whom were women, felt that they were due more than statutory entitlements. The women disrupted trucks, got detained by the police and even occupied the buildings. And the story is the subject of a new film, appropriately called 406 Days, which has its UK premiere later this week. Let's talk now to Carol-Anne Bridgman and Jane Crow. Carol-Anne worked at

Debenhams for 15 years, Jane for 23. Good morning to both of you. Hi, good morning. Thank you so much for being with us. Jane, if I could start with you, just let's go back to finding out you'd lost your job with someone, you know, with an employer you'd been with for more than two decades. Yeah. What was that like? Oh, well, we received received the email it was all sorts went around your head but first of all it wasn't even addressed here it was just a generic email that everybody got and the first thing like I was a single parent um with a mortgage just paying bills by myself and like no other income. I was like, oh my God, how am I going to pay the mortgage? How am I going to keep a roof over my head now with

my job gone and COVID here for God knows how long? How am I going to survive? Yes, and people will be able to relate to that because that was, you know, something that was starting to become a bit of a pattern at that particular point in the pandemic, but also not very personalised at all. You know, nobody getting in touch with you for all that service. Caroline, let me say hello to you. The particular concern was also the redundancy being offered, wasn't it? Well, at the start of the negotiations, it was unclear whether they would pay a redundancy payment to us. So there was only talk of the statutory, but we had a union agreement with the company that we would get two plus two.

So that would be two weeks statutory and two weeks enhanced. But it kind of became clear very earlier on that they would not be paying the enhanced agreement. So I think that's why we had to act as fast as what we did. And what did you do, Jane? You started getting organised,

didn't you, in a picket outside the 11 stores. Is that right? We did. All the shop stewards in the 11 stores, we put a WhatsApp group together and started organising

ourselves just almost immediately. We said this can't happen, how can they get away with this? In total it was 1500 people that were let go the majority of which were 90% were women

and no one seemed to be minding that it was happening and but we minded because you know we were the breadwinners in our homes and looking after our children and whatever but we just we just couldn't let it go because nobody was COVID nobody wanted to know anything we couldn't go and fight it anywhere so we took it upon ourselves to do protests in the middle of um covid outside our stores and that's just where it all started then really and it carried on i mean caroline you're there in all weathers you keep going what was it like i understand you also um even occupied a building yes um it was i mean from the start it was i mean obviously new to each and every one of us so we learned as it went on but we started um exchanging information between the pickets of

the better clothing that we can wear people started putting up shacks and tents and stuff like that just to protect us against the elements. Family members helped out by coming down in cars, keeping us company. It was very, very difficult. We had to try and keep our morale up and the morale up on the pickets and the whole lot. So the elements did have a huge influence on the way we were picketing. But we persevered, thankfully.

And I mean, all those that attended the picket were amazing, absolutely brilliant. But it was tough. It was very, very tough on the pickets for the 406 days. It's a long one. It's a really long one to make yourself heard and to keep going. And I know, Jane, for you, were you detained by the police at one point? Yes, I occupied my store in Dublin and we were detained. We were taken out in the back of guard vans, police vans, and we were brought down and processed, there were six of us that had occupied and we were put into individual police

cells, our laces our jewellery, anything like that were taken off us so we couldn't harm ourselves and yeah we were processed like criminals yeah. Is that a first for you Jane? I'm not getting a criminal vibe but you know you never know i've never even had a parking ticket so i mean you know we could

hopefully have a bit of a bit of a smile at some point in this conversation because it's i mean it's pretty badass what you were doing well i mean yeah i've never thought I'd do anything like that. You know, never involved. Oh, my God. When we look back on it and we just say to each other, because we're all still in contact, you know, all the staff, and say, my God, did we really do that? Like, do you remember that day we done this or whatever?

And you're like, well, we just say to ourselves down, you know, we would do it all again. To for you know. We would do it all again. To follow our rights, we would do it all again, to achieve what we did achieve. We didn't get what we wanted, but we did achieve a lot around us. Yeah, I mean, where we're up to, I believe, and you tell me, is you brought your complaint to the Workplace Relations Commission over the manner in which you were made redundant.

You won, but the liquidators, in this case KPMG, is appealing the decision to the Labour Court. This case is going to be heard in February next year. Jane, how does it feel still not having an answer on that front? Oh, it's so destroying because all we were looking for was, you know, the extra payment from the company was 13 million. That would have covered everybody's second lot of redundancy money that we were promised.

But the case that we won now, it's only 2 million. So it's a drop in the ocean for the likes of KPMG, who are worldwide liquidators. And they felt the need to appeal that, that they didn't want to give it to us, you know. And it's probably costing them that in legal fees alone to take this case against us, rather than just let us have the two million.

So it is soul destroying, but we keep turning up and keep standing our ground. I like the way you say that. It is soul destroying, but we keep turning up and we keep standing our ground I like the way you say that, it is soul destroying but we keep turning up such an understated way of putting that I should say we contacted KPMG Ireland, the appointed liquidators

they did not want to comment, no comment was given Debenhams is now an online store only and owned by Boohoo we contacted Boohoo and no statement was also given saying this predated its ownership of Debenhams. Caroline, what would you say to those listening who say you didn't have to use these tactics? Maybe you could have got to where you've got to in the same way. You didn't need to do more than 400 days on the picket line occupying, you know, taking up police time. What would you say? I would say that from the outset, I mean, from the time we received a generic email onwards,

we were treated so badly. We were treated, we were, it was discussed that we were only women, we were being left, led up the garden path by different people. We had to do this. We had to do this because the workers' rights and legislation in Ireland does not protect the workers. It does not protect anyone in any job. And when it comes to a redundancy situation, the workers are the last on the predators list. So therefore, I mean, we might have been women but we were we were strong women that took a stand and that decided to fight for our rights which then became even bigger than what we had anticipated because they covered the rights of the workers rights for everyone um and i think people really do need to stay take a stand for what they believe in and what they're entitled to,

because we did have a union agreement that we would get two plus two. And at the end of the day, it turned out to be worthless. I mean, it was just a piece of paper and it was completely disregarded. So people really do need to take a stand. Yes. And I think, you know, hearing about how people have done it and where they've got to is something in itself. Do you still work in retail?

No. Both of you in unison there. OK. Yes. I suppose I took it as an opportunity and I went back to education. So I am now in a third year of a four year degree course.

So I am very happy with my choice and what this has led me to do. I've learned so much and I've grown so much from partaking in the strike. I mean, it threw us into areas that we had never, ever looked at before or we were never interested in or involved in. So it has given us, I mean, huge opportunities as well for personal growth and development and everything else and skills that we can carry with us. So there was that element to it as well. Carol Ann Bridgman, thank you very much. Jane, thank you to you.

Jane Crowe there. It's good to have you on the programme this morning. Let's just go to now a different sort of fight, but another woman who is trying to change the world around us in a different part of the world, a lawyer and feminist activist who's played a pivotal role in many high-profile cases

in India. Karuna Nandy is an advocate at the Indian Supreme Court and has been leading legal campaigns to criminalise marital rape and to legalise same-sex marriage. Even in this country, you might be surprised at how late we reach these points ourselves. Marital rape was only made illegal in the 90s and same-sex marriage was only legalised in 2014 and then 2020 in Northern Ireland. Karuna was named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential of 2022. And tonight is delivering the Institute for Development Studies annual lecture

entitled Gender, Justice and Joy. Legal travels through the patriarchy, suppressed speech and corporate crime. My goodness, what a title. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. You speak about, and I like learning new words. Our listeners might know this about me. You speak about heteropatriarchy. What is that and how does that fit into your fight?

So the patriarchy is a system of power that privileges masculinity, a particular type of masculinity, right? The word doesn't demonize men. It says that there's an idea of manhood that dominates all of us, including men. So similarly, the idea of the heteropatriarchy says that there's a particular type of male heterodominance, right, that affects all of us. Now, why do I think that the queer movements and the women's movements are inextricably intertwined? It's because, and they have been actually in India, and that's been a real contribution to the global women's movement, I think. And that's because the queer movements show us that we needn't be boxed into ideas of what men and women should do, that sexuality is a spectrum, that gender is a spectrum.

And if you feel like a they today, a they or them today, and if you feel like a woman tomorrow, that's fine. You don't have to be defined by all of these labels and that you can just be who you are. You know, someone very inspiringly, the Olympic athlete spoke earlier. And I think what I learned from her, what I took away from her experience is that she felt so small and she felt, you know, silenced by these labels that were placed on her. Once you take them off, then you don't have to replace it with a different label. silenced by these labels that were placed on her. Once you take them off, then you don't have to replace it with a different label. Yes, I mean, I'm thinking about your country and the rights that aren't there and the rights that you want there and the changes that you want.

I mean, many people will, of course, remember the violent murder and gang rape of a young woman on a bus in Delhi in 2012. It was a case that sent shockwaves throughout the world. I wondered if we could talk about what has happened in light of that and how the feminist movement in India has responded and any progress. So there have been significant legal changes since then. Now we are a yes means yes jurisdiction. We're not a no means no jurisdiction. What does that mean? That when there is any sexual interaction, that a woman must affirmatively and unequivocally say a yes and not be on the defensive.

And the onus is not on the woman to say a no, right? Now that yes could be through words or gestures. It could be implicit or explicit, but it must be clear. That's big progress. In addition, there are peculiarly South Asian crimes. Things like, of course, things that happen here as well, but things that happen in a very peculiar way in South Asia. So now we have stalking is a crime. Acid attacks are dealt with much more strictly. Disrobing, which is a caste crime, is dealt with.

We also have a law that says that if a police officer fails to register a caste crime, is dealt with. We also have a law that says that if a police officer fails to register a sex crime, then that police officer, him or herself, can be prosecuted for not registering the crime, criminally prosecuted. Now, this provision was there earlier, but it was, you had to get state government approval and that was like waiting for Godot, that never came. So that's also significant progress.

And the criminalisation of marital rape? law. So we brought a case in 2015 in the high court. And I argued it personally for six years. And we got a split verdict. But interestingly, the day that it came out, it cited, it went back to a man called Lord Matthew Hale. And Lord Matthew Hale was the man whose mind the marital rape exception came out of. It wasn't while he was on the bench. It was while he was writing a book. He was an Englishman. The same week, the Dobbs versus Jackson decision in the United States, which said that abortion was not a fundamental right. That decision came out and the Alito decision cited Matthew Hale eight times. So what's fascinating is that we have still around the world failed to decolonize the law. And we have failed to also, while in the limited efforts that we have had to decolonize the law,

failed to emerge into a new construct that is not sexist, that isn't racist, that isn't casteist. And I think that in the conversations, for instance, here, you know, from outside looking in, around Soheila Bravman, around Preeti Patel, we forget that the race and gender of these people are cover for extremely racist and sexist policies. And, you know, honestly, it's shocking to see the sort of thing going on in a country that used to be a colonial power, rather than not just the discourse, but policies. I mean, that's your view.

Of course, we've had many other views talking to the opposite effect about Suella Braverman, as you've brought that back to her and brings me back to our beginning discussion. Karuna Nandy, thank you. But a fascinating point about decolonising the law in India. It'll be good to talk to you again. We have had a response from the government, as I mentioned at the start of the programme. Tomorrow, I'm hoping,

I've been told by the government, I'll be joined by a Secretary of State. So we hope to hear from them. And we've been talking about the lack of women in the top four cabinet posts. They said they offered a choice of female minister today, a new junior minister to talk about this, or a male cabinet secretary of state tomorrow, which we've opted for.

So we look forward to that. And they added, conservatives don't believe in tick box diversity, which is why we've ended up with an impressively diverse cabinet and have had three female leaders of our party. We're focused on delivering for the public, not personalities. We leave that sort of nonsense to the Labour Party, which has failed on both counts. Look forward to that interview tomorrow and future interviews with the Labour Party. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Sean Keaveney and I'm back with a new series of Your Place or Mine from BBC Radio 4, the travel show that's going nowhere. I'm a proper hornbird, me, but each show sees another remarkable guest try to persuade me off my sofa and into the big wide world. And it is warm. It is warm, but you just don't wear a lot of clothes and you just find a banana tree that's wafting. Happy days. But will I make it out of the front door?

Lots of smiles from people. I don't know if you're against that. Find out by listening to Your Place or Mine with Sean Keaveney on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.