Woman's Hour - Dame Melinda Simmons, British Ambassador to Ukraine, Fully female clergy, Twin sisters on pregnancy & miscarriage; Quilting

Episode Date: February 24, 2023

It is a year since Russian forces invaded Ukraine. The war has severely impacted social cohesion, community security and the resilience of local communities, especially women and girls. Approximately 5.4 million people have been displaced inside Ukraine, and 8 million people have registered as refugees across Europe. Woman’s Hour speaks to the UK ambassador to Ukraine, Dame Melinda Simmons her only UK interview on this first anniversary.Leicester Cathedral is celebrating having a fully female clergy team in what it believes might be a first for England. Hayley Hassall speaks to one of the team of 5, the canon pastor Reverend Canon Alison Adams at Leicester Cathedral. What do you do when something amazing happens to you whilst someone you love is going through something terrible?…a sibling, a best friend…or even a twin. That is what happened to twin sisters Chloe and Lydia. When Chloe was days away from giving birth, Lydia experienced her second miscarriage and it tested their bond to the limit. They join Hayley to share their story. Do you sew or quilt? ‘The New Bend’ is the name of an exhibition running at the Hauser and Wirth gallery in Somerset until 8 May. It showcases the work of 12 contemporary artists and quilters whose work pays homage to the enduring legacy of the women of the Gee’s Bend Alabama quilters, who were quilting as early as the 19th century in the Alabama Black Belt in America. Hayley is joined by Ferren Gipson - art historian, textile artist and author of ‘Women’s Work: From Feminine Arts to Feminist Art’ to discuss quilting and reclaiming the idea of ‘women’s work’ within the history of art.Presented by Hayley Hassall Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engineer: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the programme. It's a year since Russian forces invaded Ukraine and you'll be hearing across the BBC and other outlets today just what that year has been like for many Ukrainians who have been displaced, families have been torn apart and those who are grieving the loss of loved ones. But here on Woman's Hour, we want to take a moment

to delve into the effects this war has had on the women of Ukraine, those who are now refugees or those who have marched on the front lines as part of the Ukraine Armed Forces that is made up of 22% of women, and those women who are helping support the war effort from a national level, like my guest, Dame Melinda Simmons, who is the UK's ambassador to Ukraine and who will be giving Woman's Hour, her only UK interview on this anniversary. I'll be talking to her in just a moment. But yesterday we talked about siblings and many of you contacted the programme with stories of amazing support and comfort that you just couldn't get from anyone else but your brother or sister. But what do you do when something amazing happens to you

whilst your closest ally is going through something terrible? When my next guest, Chloe, was days away from giving birth, her twin sister had a miscarriage. And they'll be joining me today to talk about how that tested their bond to the absolute limit. And as Woman's Hour is all about hearing your stories, I'd love you to join in this conversation. If you've had to cope with something tragic whilst witnessing the joy of your nearest and dearest, maybe like my guests, you've had to support your friend through their pregnancy while you were unable to conceive, or maybe you've had to support your friend through their pregnancy while you were unable to conceive.

Or maybe you've had to attend the wedding of a friend after you've just gone through a breakup. Or were you the one wracked with guilt for celebrating when you knew that your sibling or your friend was hurting inside? Well, you can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And terms and conditions can be found on our website. And here

on Woman's Hour we often battle against the idea of women's work as a classification but today I'll be joined by an art historian and textile artist who is going to tell me all about the work of quilting and how historically it has been seen as woman's art but is now making a resurgence in feminist circles. But first to our top story today. The Russian invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, has created Europe's largest refugee crisis since World War II. The war has severely impacted on social cohesion, community security and the resilience of local communities, especially women and girls.

Approximately 4.5 million people have been displaced inside Ukraine, with 8 million people registered as refugees across Europe. Now, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights recently verified more than 7,000 civilian deaths, but they say that the real numbers could be much higher. Now, currently best in Kiev, Dame Melinda Simmons has been the British ambassador for Ukraine since September 2019. She joins me now. Welcome, Madam Ambassador. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for having me this morning. Now, before I start, I just wanted to play you a clip from Woman's Hour almost a year ago now,

when just two weeks before you had had to temporarily leave Ukraine. just wanted to play you a clip from Woman's Hour almost a year ago now, when just two weeks before you had had to temporarily leave Ukraine. I wanted to play you this clip because the description of what you saw on your journey that day is extremely powerful. Here it is. Well, I think all of us who had to make the very tough decision to move from Lviv to the Polish border couldn't be otherwise than than um speechlessly shocked really because you never expect nobody expects not Ukrainians or us or anyone to be part of such a human exodus out of a country that has lived peacefully to another country in such a uh in such a kind of basic sort of wartime way. We passed thousands of people,

many of whom had left their cars because the queues were so long and were walking and it was bitterly cold. And of course, this is the case with many borders. It's quite exposed. And so people were wrapping things around them that they had in their backpacks. And we were watching this long, long line of people

make their way to the border. And it was incredibly hard to process. We spent some time talking about it together as a group after we crossed the border because we felt the need to put words to what we had seen and most of us talked of it as things that we remembered reading about or hearing about from World War II, that the extent of that exodus, that was the clearest picture we could come up with. So Dame Melinda, such a powerful image there. And I think you went on to say you held hands with your colleague and you actually cried seeing that. What does it feel like almost a year to be reminded of those first days of the war?

Thank you for asking. It's genuinely really horrible to think back to this time last year. It was such a traumatic time for everybody. For me, for my staff, those of us who were evacuated, and particularly my Ukrainian colleagues who found themselves fleeing. Actually, this morning, I had a really lovely session with my staff in which we encouraged each other to talk about what we were reflecting on today. And most of us talked about how hard it was to think of that time. But we also talked about the strength that we took from it, how we coped, what we had learned. And most importantly of all, how differently we all felt now that we were back. And I've characterized this myself as this time last year being consumed with uncertainty.

And I was certainly afraid. All of us were afraid at that time. It was so impossible to tell what might happen, particularly to Kiev, to the capital. And this time we think of ourselves as people who are determined, who feel like we're making a real contribution. And that's not just actually staff at the British Embassy in Kiev. That's people all over the recently de-occupied free places. Of course, Kyiv classifies itself as being de-occupied, Russians having tried to get into Kyiv, people going about their work and opening up businesses and finding ways to contribute to the economy and build their lives. All of that is characterized as a positive way

to contribute towards the defense of Ukraine. So how I feel now is really different from how I felt a year ago. That difference I can tell in a lot of the things you tweet about and a lot of the interviews you've done. And that travel from fear to determination, I mean, you've mentioned that you are now the eyes and ears of Ukraine so that we and the rest of the world can really understand what it's like that.

But that must be incredibly difficult position for you when you took this job you never imagined you'd be in the middle of a war zone what how is daily life for you now and and and how are you and your colleagues coping with that well actually that you know the ambassador job is always busy so it being busy isn't different the difference um leading an embassy through wartime is that the job stops being a job and it becomes a life because war isn't a five day a week thing. And Russians don't stop shelling Kiev at the weekend so they can go and have a rest. So the uncertainty about how your daily life is going to be is a 24-7 thing. And also talking with ministers, with officials,

or frankly, with survivors or witnesses or activists or people delivering humanitarian aid is also a round the clock thing. So I think the biggest difference for me in terms of the work I do is, of course, it's all geared towards the UK effort to support Ukraine to defend itself, but it's relentless. And the pressure of keeping your resilience going through that relentlessness where you may not get the chance for the downtime. And of course, I'm separated from my family because they can't live with me here while this war is going on. Those probably are my main sources of pressure. And of course, 90% of those who have fled the fighting are women and children.

What is daily life like for those women who have stayed? I know you go out and meet them often. How are they coping? Well, of course, if they're in places like Kiev or Lviv, largely if they're in the west of Ukraine, they may have more carer responsibilities. And certainly for many of them whose partners have been mobilised, they're now the main person in the household keeping things together. That's like your daily life, but amplified with more uncertainty about your family. If you're in a recently deoccupied place in Ukraine,

if, for example, you're in Sumy or Kharkiv or even Kherson, which is currently being shelled relentlessly, then it's more about survival because there's so much less available to you, less in terms of products that you can buy and obviously less in terms of work that would generate products that you can buy, and obviously less in terms of work that would generate income. If you are a woman who's living inside an occupied part of Ukraine, from all that I'm able to hear, because of course, I can't go into Russian occupied parts of Ukraine, it is a nightmare, a nightmare that will only be told through

survivor testimony after those places are deoccupied. And of course, you mentioned the fact that there's no work, there's no supplies, but what about the healthcare for women? I think it's something like 265,000 Ukrainian women were pregnant as the war broke out. And obviously, hospitals have been damaged along the way. What access to health support remains for women in Ukraine? Well, it's important to remember that Ukraine is the second largest country in Europe with a population of 40 million people. So wherever they were displaced, whether they left for Poland or they were displaced elsewhere in the country, the scale of of the need in terms of how you had to look after women who are pregnant has just risen exponentially.

So that even for a functioning government, which we have to remember Ukraine has with its departments functioning and its ministers turning up for work and its officials doing everything they can, this is overwhelming for anyone. So of course, this is an area that has needed international support. And it's one of the areas that we've prioritised for our humanitarian support. The UK has always been really active here in helping women and girls. And healthcare is one of the areas where we've been active through the UN, dignity kits to help them keep clean, for example, and working with local clinics and centres to enable access. But I think the secondary thing that maybe we don't see so much is the effect of the stress on women who are pregnant. So we do hear stories, inevitably horrible stories of

women finding themselves giving birth in shelters, for example, bomb shelters. But the other statistic that is distressing that the Department of Health has been talking about recently is the increasing numbers of women giving birth prematurely. And those premature births are, of course, due to the heightened stress of being displaced, of not having your family around you, of maybe not coming from your flat anymore because it's been bombed, and the effect that has on your physical health and your ability to be able to care for your child. So it isn't even just the fundamental things of being able to take care of yourself medically, and where I said the international community in the UK is helping, it's also about this longer term trauma that we have to keep our eye on and extend our support to as the war goes on. It's pretty distressing.

It is extremely sort of difficult to hear as well. And I want to move on to one of the most disturbing events of this war. You tweeted last April that rape is a weapon of war and there have been what has been referred to as an alarming increase in gender-based violence and transactional sex for food and survival. I'm just going to read one of your tweets. You said, Rape is a weapon of war, though we don't yet know the full extent of its use in Ukraine. It's already clear it was part of Russian arsenal. Women raped in front of their kids, girls in front of their families.

As a deliberate act of subjugation, rape is a war crime. Now, it's very difficult for me to read that, and it must be horrendous for you to be made aware of, but I know it's a big concern for you. It's also an issue I've been passionate about for most of my career. So I've done a lot of work. The UK has been a leader on preventing sexual violence, ran that conference 10 years ago, another one last year,

to keep the issue of sexual violence in war on the agenda. And it's been heartbreaking to be in a country where the sheer scale of it, it's still unknown of course because there are still occupied parts of Ukraine, that it's really clear how rape is being used as part of this hybrid war to subjugate people. And I put that tweet out after the liberation of places like Butcher and Bravary, where we saw all of us have now seen all visitors to Ukraine have gone to these places and seen what Russian troops have done there. But the invisible thing, so they have seen mass executions and murder of people, shooting people in their cars as they try to escape. It's appalling stuff.

But the invisible side of this, and why I put my tweet out, was what happened to people who were trapped, who couldn't escape. And that included widespread sexual violence. It's incredibly important to me personally, but it's certainly an important part of UK policy that we talk about this. And we support it. And it's one of the areas that we are giving our support to and one of the areas that first lady of ukraine has stepped up to to speak about and give some championship to because this is a country among many countries where people don't talk about this kind of thing it's quite taboo women don't talk about sexual violence they didn't use to talk about domestic violence very much so you've got you've got a journey really to enable women to feel

that if this has happened to them, they can acknowledge it as a thing that has happened to them. You talk about raising awareness about it, but how are the authorities attempting to combat the violence against women? It's actually, I think they're doing a pretty good job. Again, they've got an issue of scale, like all parts of government do. But you have the Ministry of Social Policy making sure that their law enforcement and their social services are appropriately trained, and the Ministry of Interior working together with them to make sure that services are integrated, which means that if you're a woman to whom something like this has happened, there is a place that you can go to where you can speak to social services, to healthcare, you can give your

story to a lawyer and have it recorded, and that goes to the Director of Public Prosecutions. You can work out what care that you need and get it. You can speak to police about security in your area. You can stay at a shelter. This was already evolving before the war. So actually, this is something that Ukraine knows how to do, but it is the scale of it that is the challenge to try to make that available to that many more women. And again, funding shelters and this sort of care and funding for the reporting of crimes is another area that the UK is active in here. And I know that women are playing an active part in the war effort as well. While registering for military service is compulsory

for men, women can choose to volunteer, can't they? And in fact, aren't they making 22% up of Ukraine's armed forces? So what role are women playing on the front line? Well, so they are fighting now. So in the early years of women joining up, they tended to be assigned to administrative roles, but now they are able to take combat roles and they are doing that. And I'm sorry to say that women are also dying on the battlefield alongside men. And that's it's all incredibly hard. But that, too, is incredibly hard. They face some administrative issues that we've also given given publicity to to make sure that they're not forgotten.

For example, making sure they have access to the right size uniform is a thing. The right size medical care, which, of course, has to be bespoke for women. And that has been a journey, but a journey which the Ministry of Defence here is making good progress on. But it's important to remember that there are so many different ways to be defending your country. You can be fighting on the front line, but there are also a rising number here of women deminers. This is on its way to being the most mined country in the world. The landmass of mines in this country is equivalent to the size of Britain at this stage. The challenge is enormous. So you need women as well as men stepping up to help clean areas of

land so that people can work and so that fights can proceed. And that is one example of many areas where women are stepping up and choosing those sorts of areas of work. A, so they have work and B, so that they can contribute. And this sort of gender equality is something I know you're really passionate about. It's been really high on your agenda with your work in Ukraine. What do you see as the impact of women's involvement in the war long term? Because some are saying that many women involved in this war will chip away at traditional sexist attitudes and it will perhaps create a more equal society afterwards. What do you make of that? I think it's perfectly possible. One thing that I do think has happened here is that,

as in probably situations of war elsewhere, it throws up many different kinds of hero. So people have many more pictures of what constitutes bravery in their country. So, of course, there is frontline bravery and military bravery, but there's also community bravery, and there is family bravery, and people are talking about this at all different levels. It's also becoming clear how many women have been agile in setting up businesses and moving them online so that they can trade, they can make stuff and sell it. And this too is being recognised. So I definitely think that has a long trail after the war ends.

The question I have, and the area where we're all going to have to get involved is, what happens after Ukraine wins this, which I firmly believe they can and will, and you've got over 300,000 troops who are not all going to be required to fight, even as Ukraine will need stronger security in coming years, those men, many of those men will come back and want to do jobs so then what happens to the skills that the women have accumulated in that time who have had to be running those doing those jobs and running their communities and if ukraine gets this right in their recovery and reconstruction and they factor in the whole of the country then they can power their country through to a position where it can rebuild but there is a real risk, and particularly in a country like Ukraine that can be quite patriarchal, that they forget that. If they forget that, then you lose

a generation of acquired skills that women have brought to bear during this time. It's good to hear of you talking about the hope for the future, and it must be something that keeps people going, actually. But if we can reflect on the last year, because last time you spoke to Women's Hour, you just had to leave Ukraine. You're now back in Kiev. And I wondered, you talked earlier about initially having that fear, but now having that sort of acceptance in a way. Just earlier this week, you tweeted that sirens were sounding in Kiev and there's been a lot of those in the last few days. So you've had to move away from the windows, pick up a book and carry on. It sounds so matter of fact, it's commonplace, which is sad in itself, but it sounds like the fear is lesson two. How is it for you and your team there at the moment? Yes, I think all of us are in a place where

we are alive to it. We often talk with each other actually about how sirens can make your hands shake. They can make your heartbeat faster. They heartbeat faster, they can actually sounds that aren't sirens that you think might be like just the sound of a motorbike or something on the road can make you start as if as if something is happening. But none of us talk about it as an active fear. All of and all of us talk about not being complacent, nobody ignores an air raid siren. But we factor it in to to the daily work work and we are deliberate in in carrying on in keeping calm and carrying on and if we have to continue our work away from windows then that's what we do i've lost count of the number of times i have moved my laptop down into the basement of

this house and carried on my work or i've moved from sleeping in my bedroom to sleeping in a teeny room next door that's got no windows it's just just become a thing. I never, ever want it to feel normal, but I never, never want to let it overwhelm me. Also this week, Putin made his annual speech and President Biden arrived as well. How significant a visit was that? Massively significant. I think that all foreign visits to Ukraine are significant. So when our prime minister, when Rishi Sunak came here, was a fantastic moment. And when President Biden came here, Ukrainians really took heart, not least because in contrast, of course, to the UK, this was the first visit by a U.S. president in many years. President Biden had been before, but when he when he had the foreign affairs brief, not as president. So a president of the United States coming to Ukraine was taken as such a message of hope for their future,

a message of confidence in Ukraine that Ukraine could be stood by and was capable of winning and would have US backing, or in the case of when our prime minister came, UK backing, or the backing of the EU or of any foreign leaders who have come, this is part of what keeps Ukrainian morale high, that they see and feel and hear that support from ally countries. And the UK have led this in a way. I remember Boris Johnson being the first world leader to visit Ukraine after the conflict. But do you think that the international community is doing enough to support Ukraine? I think that, and certainly this is the case for the UK, we work really closely alongside the Ukrainian authorities. We speak with them about the course of this

invasion, which of course isn't a linear thing, it's twists and turns, it goes backwards and forwards, it ebbs and flows. And I know that our ministers have conversations whereby they calibrate what they're providing according to what the Ukrainians are asking for. The international community has come together in a way that it has never come together before, politically, but also around the supply of weapons. So the Ukrainians make that ask, and then the international community has to work out who's got it, how they can supply it, and then they get on and do that. So the UK may, well, you know that we have supplied weapons. We have also worked with others to source weapons and parts for weapons and transport for weapons. It is a fantastic common effort, but it is led by what the Ukrainians ask for.

And that is great support. But realistically, I mean, I don't know whether you can answer this question, but in your opinion, do you think there's any chance of peace in the next six months or even in the next year? What is the mood like there? And what is the hope for the future? The thing for Ukraine is they have this now quite often used phrase, if Russia stops fighting, you know, the war stops and they go home. If Ukraine stops fighting, they lose their country. So this isn't a question of whether it takes internationally provided weaponry or not for Ukrainians to keep fighting. Ukrainians will keep fighting, and they will keep running their communities and doing what they can to shore up their economy and working by candlelight in the evening, because they've got no choice. So they'll

continue to do that. And what President Zelensky has said more than once is, if they're not provided with the right or enough capacity to do that, they'll continue going. But it may take them longer to get there. Dame Melinda Simmons, thank you. Thank you for your interview. Thank you for your time and thank you for what you're doing. I think the people of Ukraine and those like yourself working tirelessly through this war are all in our hearts, not just today, but especially today. So thank you for taking the time to come and talk to us on Woman's Hour. Thanks so much. Now this morning marks a landmark moment for the Church of England. Leicester Cathedral is celebrating having a fully female clergy team in what it believes might be a first for England. The team consists of five women,

including the Reverend Canon Karen Rooms, the Canon Reverend Canon Emma Davis, the Canon Pastor Reverend Canon Alison Adams and curates Reverend Manuela Schmookey and Julia Bradshaw. Well, joining me now is the Canon Pastor Reverend Canon Alison Adams at Leicester Cathedral. Alison, thank you so much for coming to speak to us today. A pleasure. Now, I know you grew up in the 1960s when you said there were no female role models in the church. And so it was never a career you expected, I believe. So what changed that? What changed that was when the vote went through, when I realised that it was a possibility. There were female role models, but it was very hierarchical

when I was growing up. So I grew up in a church where there were youngsters and there was a lot going on. And I had two very dear friends. We did a lot of youth stuff together. They went on to be ordained and I didn't because they were male and I was female. What changed, as I say, was that was the vote went through and it was a real light bulb moment for me and I realized that you know that was where my life was heading should have been heading and yeah the rest is history really because you were a teacher at the time weren't you so it was a proper a proper change it was a proper change yes and I think I'm like quite a lot of women who went off and did other exciting things, possibly knowingly, possibly not knowingly. I think it's quite interesting that we we're in a position now where young women, young adult women are in a church where the leadership is a mix of male and female and diverse beyond that.

And they can see that and therefore they can enter into the church workplace more easily, perhaps, than people like myself did. Some of our senior women have come from really, really interesting careers outside. And that's good, too, as indeed it is with men. Now, I know that you are now in a team of five women leading Leicester Cathedral. What has brought this about? What brought this about was when Karen became the acting dean, when the dean moved on to be dean of Canterbury, Karen became acting dean and we looked at ourselves and we said, oh, we're all women. So it was another one of those light bulb moments when you suddenly, it happened and you realised

there was, well, we're here, we've got to this place. How did it feel at that moment? It felt exciting. It felt good. I mean, Leicester does have a history in that leicester was the first cathedral to have a woman um at the running the cathedral that was the now bishop of bristol before who took took the role up in the year 2000 so we do have a history yeah i believe it was the first to admit girls into a choir as well exactly we were the first to have a complete girls choir not just admit girls but actually have a girls choir. And we have a very integrated and very lovely system of choir now, which is entirely mixed. Girls choir, boys, mixed, you know, everything in different combinations, which is as it should be.

So how well represented are women in leadership roles throughout the Church of England then? Well, we're nowhere near 50% in terms of women in ministry roles yet. In this, on our patch, we're about 30, we're about a third women in ministry roles and very much less in leadership roles. So it is about leadership, really. I think women can come into ministry, as I said, and the pathway is there. But it is much more difficult for them. And I think we need to be as a church more intentional about helping women into leadership roles. Yeah, there's still a lot more way to go, isn't there? Yeah, well, I think we, I mean, the church faces,

same as many a workplace, faces issues around work patterns, childcare, all of that sort of thing. Right. Sexism, you know, casual sexism, all that sort of thing is there in the church church as indeed it is in many institutions and workplaces we're no different so there is a need to address culture um and i do rejoice at our male colleagues who who you know really do um support and champion this you need people who aren't just women championing yeah changes really just want

to pick up on that sexism you talk about that because it is a culture that as you say still exists in in what way have you experienced that and has that held you back in the past well I never expected to be in church leadership ever um when I was ord, I've been ordained 25 years. When I was ordained, I felt I had to be very much the pseudo male in order to elbow my way into the room. So you kind of took on a male persona? I think I probably did. Yes, I did, to be quite honest. And you'd have to ask my younger colleagues how it feels to them. But it's, yeah, it's the same kind of sexism that you can get in many an established structure, isn't it? Is that left out of things, overlooked, not listened to, not promoted?

What was that like for you? Or for others that you know of even, that are also going through those struggles, who perhaps aren't where you are now? I think it's about not being listened to at times. I think it's assumptions about competence, assumptions about perceived gender behaviour, or not, as the case may be. And it's about language sometimes, too. I don't like being called dear, for instance, which can still happen, sadly. Within what is essentially your workplace, you can often be called dear.

Yes, exactly. That would infuriate me too i'm glad to hear it and i know this is something you feel quite passionately about you you say you now want to help other women realize their potential how are you planning to do that well i think every time we can highlight something like this every time we can highlight something like this, every time, about celebrating that, not putting down the fact that it's a woman and not a man or not a person of any other gender diversity. But I think we do have to be intentional um and i think we have to look at how we make it easier for women particularly young women with children um particularly women who who perhaps feel themselves to be um less able to enter ministry, to be positive towards them. And that is not denigrating the current ministry of men in any way, shape or form.

And are women applying for ministerial roles? Is that happening? Are there women out there who need help to reach that stage? Oh, there are women applying for ministerial roles. It's just, it's a slow climb. It's not there yet. I know you're currently recruiting for the Dean of Leicester. Now, the first woman to hold the role as Dean of Leicester was 2002. And the current acting Dean is the Reverend Karen Rooms, of course. Have there been women who have held this role since? And would you be open to a woman next?

We would certainly be open to a woman next? We would certainly be open to a woman next. We would be open to the right person of whatever gender and whatever cultural background. It is about picking the right person for this role at this moment in time. So, no, the person that followed Viv was a man and that was fine too. And we've had a grand time. He's gone on to Canterbury. We are up to whoever God calls to that position in this place. And the fact there's five of you now must be a really trailblazing moment for other women who are coming into church and into the cathedral to be able to see that. I mean, I can't believe it's taken so long for this to be the

first time it's happened, but there we are. How do you think it will impact women who are coming and being part of the congregation? Not even part, you know, they don't even want to be a minister themselves, but they just want to come and enjoy the service. Well, there is good, good research from the United States. And anecdotally, I think we know it as well, that when women are leading churches, young women are far more likely to engage with their spirituality and perhaps go into ministry, perhaps not. And it certainly doesn't impact negatively on young men at all so it is a positive that's great thank you so much alison it's been lovely to have you on the program and good luck with the job and good luck with working together you're talking to someone who's on an all

women's team here today so um you're in you're in a good place but thank you for joining us well the spokesperson for the church of england of England has told us that the national ministry team for the Church of England has long worked to encourage women to consider vocations to ordained ministry. We know that we still have some way to go, but we thank God for the witness and work of those women we see bringing their gifts and experiences to serve God and the church. Now lots of you have been getting in touch about a situation you've been in, a relationship you've been in where you've been through a tricky time when someone perhaps is celebrating themselves. Here we have a message that says, I had a stillbirth in June and had a nine hour labour to deliver her. Then my sister gave birth in September to a baby girl. I couldn't acknowledge the baby at all. It was the manifestation of what I'd lost. I found it very difficult and so did my

sister another one here says I became pregnant pregnant quickly after getting married whilst my sister had been trying to start her family for some time already and was undergoing difficult and expensive treatment happily she went on to have three children but I remember that time as being very upsetting for us both and I can read many more but please keep those coming in because we will be speaking to twin sisters Lydia and Chloe shortly about their experience of that. But first of all did you get married when you were 16 or 17? Was it a success or a decision you came to regret? Are you still in that relationship or did it end quickly? We're asking this because on Monday the Marriage and Civil Partnership, the minimum age act comes into effect. The Act will raise the age of marriage and civil partnership to 18 in England and Wales,

which means 16 to 17 year olds will no longer be able to marry or enter a civil partnership under any circumstances, including with parental consent. So we want to know your experience and hear your stories. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Or on social media, it's BBC Women's Hour. And you can still email us through our website as well. So were you one of those 16 and 17 year olds who got married? We'd love

to know how it's turned out. Now on the programme yesterday, we were discussing the important relationship between siblings, especially when you are both going through difficult times. But what do you do when something amazing happens to you, while someone you love is going through something terrible? A sibling, a best friend, or even a twin? This is what happened to my next guests, their twin sisters, Chloe and Lydia. When Chloe was days away from giving birth, Lydia experienced her second miscarriage, and it tested their bond to the limit. They join

me now to tell me their story. Chloe and Lydia Hamilton welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi. Hi Lydia I'm going to start with you. Why did you decide that you wanted to share your experience? I know it was Chloe who wrote the article but Lydia it was you who wanted to tell your story. Can you talk me through that decision and why you came to that moment? Yeah, definitely. I think having gone through pregnancy loss twice, I both times felt like there wasn't loads of, I suppose, loads of support out there for people that were going through something similar, particularly in the circumstances that we were in with a twin or someone who was very close to us going through the the thing that was sort of being taken away from you um and I felt like it was something that needed to be spoken about and and shared on a on a um on a sort of you know wider platform than just me telling my friends and stuff um and I knew

that Chloe had such an you know she was someone who could write that story from the heart and and really do it justice so I sort of approached her and we kind of discussed how it might look and how it might work and um you know we were very careful to make sure that it was a story told I suppose in our words so Chloe used um a lot of the uh texts and uh whatsapp messages from that time rather than actually interviewing me. And I think it really captured the feelings that we went through in that moment. And I hoped it would, I suppose, raise awareness to something that is so challenging and unfortunately so common. And Lydia, that must have been so difficult for you to talk about it, but also to go through.

I'm really, really sorry for your loss it must have been an incredibly difficult time um but talk to me about that and how having your sister pregnant at the time really conflicted with that yeah definitely I think the first time um was I say the first time was the hardest because it was an it was unknown territory and it was difficult it was difficult to have navigate our relationship through something that neither of us had been through an experience before and not only that but I think for friends and family trying to work out how to support both of us Chloe in the early stages of her pregnancy and me going through my recent loss um you know I know that was challenging for them and then the second time we almost felt you know when I fell pregnant the second time that, goodness, this wouldn't happen again.

This was our moment. This was going to be great. And I think there was Chloe talked about in her piece, in her in her article that there was, you know, a few weeks, a month or so where we both thought, God, this is this is great. You know, this weight had been lifted from her shoulders and then it came crashing down again and um yeah there really are you know no words to explain that feeling um but i think you know and you know chloe i'm sure would agree i hope would agree that actually i think it brought us closer together we've always been incredibly close as sisters and now i feel even closer because we have this real shared understanding of what each other's been through um you know and i felt guilty because because I wanted Chloe and I wanted my friends and family to celebrate such an exciting time. But it was bookended by, you know, one of the most difficult experiences of my life.

So, yeah, it was very, very conflicting and incredibly difficult. You said something that really struck me. You said not only had you lost a baby, you felt you'd lost your sister in that time. But I'm so pleased to hear that you've you've got your relationship back and you're you're back together stronger chloe could i come to you and are you able to tell me about your experiences because you were obviously going through a wonderful celebration a time of joy in your life when lydia faced such sadness chloe you there we may have lost Chloe for a moment but but but Lydia we've got you um yeah you well they do say that twins have that special connection when you know

what each other's thinking so maybe I can just ask you all the questions for now but how difficult was it for you to deal with your own grief whilst also feeling happy for your sister because Chloe was going through this amazing moment she was pregnant she was obviously for you to deal with your own grief whilst also feeling happy for your sister because Chloe was going through this amazing moment she was pregnant she was obviously expecting your your nephew as you now know Fabian so how how was it for you to deal with grief whilst also feeling a kind of happiness yeah it was it was it was a really strange feeling and there was moments where I felt just pure joy especially once I'd met Fabian and he was here because he was you know he was completely innocent I mean we all were but he really had no idea I suppose about the heartache that had gone before him so actually and I think Chloe speaks

in the article that when as soon as he was born I found the whole thing a little bit easier because he was there and he was you know such an amazing he's such an amazing child and I love that relationship that we have and it's incredibly special one as a twin auntie I think it's a really special relationship we're very similar we look similar we have the same um sort of personality me and this you know 15 month old it's quite nice to know that you know we are that close um but I think it was I had sort of there was times where I had to put my sort of own feelings aside and be there to support Chloe and be happy for Chloe um even though I know deep down I was really struggling so I had an amazing support network around me and my husband

was incredibly supportive knowing that you know he was he got me kind of um I suppose the the raw Lydia in those moments whereas on the surface maybe maybe to my friends and family, I was trying to be more positive. So I think just having the friends and family around you is incredibly helpful. Gosh, that must have been so difficult for you. I know that Chloe wrote in her article, actually, if jealousy is felt easily by twins, so is grief. Yeah. There must have been moments when you felt jealous, but there must have been moments when Chloe felt your grief too.

Could you feel those opposite feelings and experiences from opposite directions? I know it's a really tricky question to ask, but in a way you're feeling both emotions, aren't you? Yeah, 100%. And then you feel guilt as well for um the grief and not being able to support Chloe and definitely in those with the first pregnancy uh the first miscarriage in Chloe's pregnancy initially it was hard because it was I mean it was within a matter of of weeks that I was

that you know that it was all happening and um I found it so hard to feel happy for Chloe's news but I also think because I'd gone through this loss Chloe was incredibly anxious in the first few weeks and months of her pregnancy having experienced someone close to her go through a miscarriage and I felt like I couldn't support her through that because when she wanted reassurance I couldn't give that to her because my experience had been lost so I felt then guilt that I couldn't be the sister that I would have wanted to be in those days and likewise in the second the second miscarriage when I went into the hospital to see Chloe after having Fabian I was still miscarrying so just physically I felt very distant from her and I felt like I needed her when

Fabian needed her and that was incredibly hard um and I felt guilty for feeling like that as well so there's a whole load of emotions guilt guilt, grief, but also happiness for Chloe. It's a real cocktail of emotions that it's very hard to unpack. But yeah, I think it's made both of us stronger for it. Gosh, it sounds incredibly hard. I think we may have Chloe on the line now. Chloe, are you there? No, we can't hear you, Chloe sorry are you have you pressed the old unmute button don't worry not at all we'll hopefully hear from you a bit later Chloe um but Lydia how did your different experiences change your relationship because I know you've said you're stronger now but you must have had to go through some times when you felt very distant um how did you manage

to build a strong relationship and for anyone there's lots of people texting about this actually saying that they've gone through similar things how do you not fall apart yeah I think that it's a really good question I think it's you know just in terms of practical advice of how to kind of withstand something like this um you know I think we had to be very open with each other about what was too much and what was too difficult so definitely in those in those early days of um you know the first when Chloe found out that she was pregnant and I just miscarried and then the second time when I miscarried and Chloe was about to give birth and when she just when she did give birth I had to sort of be really open and say you you know, on a family chat, if it's, there's too much chat around pregnancy or birth or the baby,

I would need to step away. And I would advise anyone going through something similar, know your own limits and know what, what protects your own heart, because it's more important to do that. You'll be stronger on the, on the other side, if you do do that, rather than putting yourself in a situation where you're going to find it hard so I would step away I would um you know I would um go make a cup of tea for everyone whilst they queued over over Fabian or I would mute a couple of uh Facebook Facebook chats or WhatsApp chats just so I could kind of have my own time to breathe and process um and actually I think one of the things I've really wanted to do in the two years having been through this, it's two years last week since the first miscarriage, but I really wanted to try

and, you know, support other people going through it and offer advice that I can do. And, you know, friends and family who maybe go through something similar, I've always tried to be an ear to help them and give them advice. So knowing your limits is really important. Knowing when to step away is really important. Yeah. And it's funny you chat about the whole family actually because um what about your other family members I imagine your parents who are now grandparents of also grieving with you at the same time so how have they dealt with the situation yeah they've been incredible um I think all the family have been amazing and um you know I think it was incredibly difficult for my mum um who you know was celebrating having her first grandchild but also

grieving the loss of two other grandchildren that she never got to meet and you know I think we've we've we've worked out sort of how and how and when we talk about it and work with it but it was you know I can't I can't imagine how hard that would have been for her and she's been an incredible support throughout the the whole experience and journey so um yeah there's actually I reached out to a couple of charities whilst I was going through it and there's a charity called Petals and they actually also offer um support for grandparents which I think is incredibly important and maybe not often thought about um so she also reached out to sort of grandparents um going through bereavement to sort of grandparents um going through bereavement through a pregnancy loss um on a facebook group and i think that was a huge

support for her as well which is great that's great petals are a fantastic charity actually to help with that and i believe chloe is on the line now chloe are you there i'm here wonderful to hear you lydia's done a very good job of saying your side of the story but i know you originally wrote this article it was difficult for you going through your pregnancy while your sister was was was grieving and and I think it's not it's not an uncommon situation actually we've had lots of people contacting the program talking about their situations um but I know um a friend of mine of mine wasn't able to speak to me at all while I was pregnant because she'd suffered the loss of a child and I know a friend who had to move house when me at all while I was pregnant because she'd suffered the loss of a child.

And I know a friend who had to move house when she found out her neighbour was pregnant because she just couldn't face seeing them every day when she had miscarried. It is great that you've opened up and talked about it because so many people must be in a similar situation. Why was it you felt you had to write about it, Chloe? Well, firstly, I probably saw the tech issue. I think actually Livia sharing her story first

was really important in a way because it is her story ultimately. I felt like I was the medium through which she did that, but ultimately it was her tale. But I think it was important for our relationship really to be as open with each

other as possible. We always have been, but actually when I was writing it, it sort of forced us in a way to lay all of these feelings there and maybe even to say things to each other that we hadn't said before you know I didn't know that Lydia was still bleeding when she came to the hospital to see Fabian that was something that we discussed so it was sort of forced us in a way to be so open with each other which I think was really important um I feel really reluctant to say that it was difficult for me because I don't feel like I have a right to that difficulty that Lydia's experienced um but actually it was there were elements that were and are and continue to

be hard um you know having a baby is a huge deal having a baby is a difficult thing um i think sometimes i feel like i need to be enjoying and making the most of every single moment um no matter how difficult because i'm so lucky to be here but the reality is that you know you know sleep at night is difficult you know the loss of freedom sometimes is difficult um you know occasionally i'll look at lydia's freedom at the moment and think oh do you know what I'd really like to have a night's sleep or go out with a friend without having to find a baby sister. So yeah, I think I'm really reluctant

to say it was hard for me because of course in comparison it wasn't. No, it's difficult for both of you and I'm getting lots of texts that I just want to read a couple to you because people are feeling the same. This one says, I had an incredibly blessed healthy pregnancy last year but my sister lost two babies at the

same time the guilt I carry for this is something I don't feel I can express to anyone and another one it was incredibly painful to endure a fairly late miscarriage of a baby that was due on the same day as my best friends so very challenging to watch her pregnancy advancing day by day as I mourned the loss of mine I don't know whether you two have any advice for people who are feeling the same thing that you've been through. Lydia? Yeah, I think my advice is to be really open with your friend or your sibling who is going through something like that. So from my perspective, I needed to say to friends who maybe were announcing pregnancies or going through a pregnancy at the time I was going through these losses you know I might feel a little bit distant right now and that's what

I'm going to have to do to preserve our friendship it's and actually you know good I have some incredible friends loads of incredible friends and they all really respected that and knew that if I needed to step away and be a little bit distant it wasn't through um any fault of their own it was just what we needed to do to help for me to help myself get through the situation um and I always say for anyone who's maybe um experienced a girl you know found out they're pregnant and they know that their friend or sibling has experienced losses is a really important way I think to to approach that conversation with them and I always say you know why not tell them in person because their reaction might not be how you expect it to be and actually texting someone to say I've

got this news to share with you and this is the um you know and I understand this might be difficult for you is is actually one of the best things that you can do letting someone process that news in their own time and deal with it how they need to deal with it is one of the the best the kindest things that you can do and it might feel um you know it might feel kind of rude to text someone that but it gives them that time and space to reflect yeah exactly thank you so much for that advice it's been lovely to speak to you both lydia and chloe thank you so much for coming on the program now the new bend is the name of an exhibition running at the Hauser and Wirth Gallery in Somerset. It showcases the work of 12 contemporary artists and quilters whose work pays homage to the enduring legacy of the women of the Gee's Bend, Alabama quilters

who were quilting as early as the 19th century in the Alabama black belt in America. Well, joining me now is Farrin Gibson, an art historian and textile artist whose work features in this exhibition. Farrin, you've got some of your work in the studio now. It's beautiful. The colours are so vibrant. It's amazing. Talk to me through what this represents.

What is it all about? Yeah, this is a textile work I've created. I've been working on a kind of series of works I call culminations um where I'm experimenting with materials and um kind of the idea of oh could a could a quilt be painterly and um so doing a lot of investigating a lot of failing in that process well it looks wonderful I wouldn't say there's any failure yeah oh I feel happy with where it is now yeah it's experimentation and it's originated from your interest in the

G's Bend Alabama quilters who who were they can you explain who they are and what they're about well so my connection to the G's Bend quilters is the show that's going on at House of Irwin Somerset right now which is called the new bend it's curated by Legacy Russell and she's basically gotten together this group of 12 artists whose work in some way engages with the legacy or the practice of quilting or the Gee's Bin Quilters. I'm sorry to say I've never heard of them before. Are they quite a small group? Where do they come from? Kind of small. Yeah. So they come from a place that's called Gee's Bin in Alabama. It's really the town of Boykin. And they descend from a group of people who were brought to the area

by a plantation owner in like 1816. He established this plantation and brought these enslaved people there. And generations of people began to, women particularly, make quilts and pass down this skill for quite functional reasons to start with, you know, to keep warm and make using scraps and materials that were available to them. But they have such an incredible aesthetic, really abstract, gorgeous works that are quite unique. Yeah, it's beautiful. But tell me about your personal relationship to quilting, because I believe your grandmother and her mother as well were both quilters. Yes.

Tell me about that. How did you discover that and how did you get into it? Well, it's kind of a thing you grow up with, or I say you, but like my experience, I grew up with it, saw the quilts and didn't necessarily think that much about them. And then I wrote the book Women's Work, which talks about textile and ceramic artists. And it gave me a whole new appreciation for these mediums, how difficult they are, how special they are, and how these can become kind of heirloom goods, but also kind of beautiful art objects. And as I was writing the book, I felt a real, I don't know, drive, this pull to engage with the medium myself, especially as so many women artists who've worked in these mediums

have learned their skills from women in their families or their connections to women in their communities. And is it always women? Talk me through how that sort of group of women work together. So the Gee's Bin Quilters, so it's kind of a collective. They still work today, descended from the same generations of people. And sometimes they get together and help each other out. I know with my grandmothers, it might be that one woman makes a quilt top and then they layer the sandwich together,

the quilt sandwich. So the top, the batting in the middle and the bottom, and then maybe a group of women get together and help stitch it all together. So you can see the stitching on my quilt. Yeah, really clearly. I did that myself, but sometimes groups will get together like a production line yeah well yeah it helps the work go a lot faster because you can

imagine with a big with a big quilt it would take ages to hand quilt of course and i understand since you've started quilting your son has taken an interest and you've sort of shown him a bit about it do you think you may pass it pass it on to a new generation and a male at that yeah yeah anyone can quilt absolutely um he's seven so I worry a little bit about the needles he does ask yeah well he does ask he's like oh mom I want to quilt and I I want to teach him definitely yeah and how long does it take you to take because as you say it's usually a whole sort of group tribe of people so how long does it take you personally to invest well it can be really different you know uh quilting uh historically

it can be a collective thing to do but also very individual um it depends on how complex the pattern is on the top how many how you're gathering materials there's a lot of steps to it washing the materials ironing them cutting the of steps to it, washing the materials, ironing them, cutting the little pieces, sewing it together. So it can really vary in the length. And I know that you released a book called Women's Work from Feminine Arts to Feminist Art. Yes. What do you mean by that title? It got me quite intrigued because quilting is traditionally a women's work, but seeing it as a feminist art, how does that come into play?

Well, the book covers a lot of different types of textile work weaving as well and um soft sculpture ceramics things like that um basically there's been this kind of historical attitude that um certain kinds of art forms were the work that women did or domestic pursuits and that it was for some reason separate to fine art in quotations, which is nonsense, of course. And so, especially in the 20th century, we can see so many incredible women artists who use these mediums specifically

to engage with and challenge that idea. But they're also talking about personal identity and love and nature and so many topics so it's a signpost for them really isn't it yeah yeah thank you for and your work is beautiful and i know that it's going to be at the new bend exhibition created by legacy russell and it's open at hauser and worth somerset until the 8th of may so make sure you take a look at that thank you so much for coming on the program and thank you for joining in the discussions today it's been lovely to have your comments i just want to read a few more here about

people coping with things while life is tricky. Interesting to hear the twins talking about going through difficult times. Well my identical twin has cerebral palsy so we do this on a permanent basis. Watching my twin struggle is very difficult and for her watching me have an easier life is very difficult. Well that's all

from the programme today but we will be back with Weekend's Woman's Hour tomorrow. Introducing Gaslight. I think there's something peculiar about this house. A new drama from BBC Radio 4. The gaslight's over there above the fireplace. Yes. I wonder if Mummy might be trying to get in touch.

Is the light playing tricks on you? Or is it just your mind? What if we both sold this place and you got a job in one of those little colleges that would be pleased to have you? You don't really believe that, do you? I'm trying to be kind. Like you were with the dog. How much do we really know about the person we love? Is there something I should know about, Jack?

No. I didn't put a foot wrong. Quite a bit younger than you appear to be on screen. And you look like you've been crying. You can't talk to me like that. I don't even know who you are. Available on BBC Sounds. started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.