Woman's Hour - Dame Sharon White - Chair of John Lewis, Beth Mead, Caroline and Rose Quentin

Episode Date: November 3, 2022

Dame Sharon White is the first ever female chair of John Lewis Partnership and was recently named the UK’s most influential black person in the 2023 Powerlist. She became the chair of the John Lewis Partnership in January 2020 just as the Covid pandemic hit and is responsible for turning around the fortunes of John Lewis and Waitrose in what is widely seen as the most challenging time in the company’s history. She joins Emma.The accolades just keep coming for Beth Mead, she won the Golden Boot - meaning she scored the most goals - and Player of the Tournament at the Euro's earlier this year, and last month she was runner-up in the Ballon d'Or which decides the best player in the world. Beth, who plays for Arsenal in the Women's Super League, has a new book out called Lioness: My Journey To Glory and joins Emma in the studio. Men Behaving Badly star Caroline Quentin is joined by her daughter Rose for a new touring production of the George Bernard Shaw play, Mrs Warren’s Profession. They play Mrs Warren and her daughter Vivie, who suffers a crisis of conscience when she discovers that her comfortable life has been funded by her mother’s work in the sex industry. Caroline and Rose join Emma to discuss their relationship and their first experience of working together.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We have a real treat for you today in the form of Beth Mead, one of England's football lionesses and the top scorer and player of the Euros, which England's women won so gloriously this summer. But what do you do after you and your talent have casually brought a massive trophy home and commanded an audience of more than 17 million? Let's find out, shall we?

Beth will be joining me in the studio a little later on. But before we get to sporting prowess, let's really get to it, shall we, with this question. How long could you cope working in a job with your mum? Or your daughter, if you have one. If you had to take a job with your mother? How many minutes before things turned? What would be the spark that flew the initial one? What would be the flashpoint between you? You don't have to give your real name to give some of these insights. Perhaps you've actually tried it and it didn't go very well, or maybe it's been wonderful.

The thought of it fills you with joy, hope, expectation. Tell me, what would you think about taking a job with your mum? Because, of course, the mother and daughter relationship provides a rich seam of stories and drama, and probably, because she's listening this morning, I'm not at liberty to go there about some of my best tales. But needless to say, as an only child, it's been a very loving and intense relationship with my mum. Although having said my mum will be listening, who knows, because she rang my husband in a panic yesterday, wondering if I was okay as I wasn't presenting

Woman's Hour. Except I was, and she had her radio tuned to the wrong station by accident. Mothers and daughters, perhaps you have a ringside seat as a spectator to one of these passionate relationships as a partner or maybe a son-in-law. Do tell me because I'm asking the question as actors. Caroline Quentin, she of Men Behaving Badly and Jonathan Creek fame and her daughter Rose Quentin are not only working together in a play right now, they're on tour with it

and they will also be joining me in the studio today. So I'm buckling up for your stories. Don't hold back. Could you work with your mother or your daughter? How long would it last? How long would you last? Text the programme here. Text me on 84844. Text will be charged

your standard message rate on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. Or why not send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi. But first, Dame Sharon White is the first female chair of the John Lewis Partnership and a few days ago was named the UK's most influential black person by an annual power list that aims to provide professional role models for young people of African and African Caribbean heritage. She became the chair of the John Lewis Partnership in January 2020, just as the COVID pandemic hit. A tricky time for your first big job in retail. Previously, she was the chief executive

of the media regulator Ofcom, and prior to that, she worked in the civil service, which included senior roles within the Treasury. Dame Sharon is now responsible for turning around the fortunes of John Lewis and Waitrose in what is widely seen as the most challenging time in the company's history. And with that experience of the Treasury,

it's a time where, of course, we've also had three prime ministers in quick succession and a cost-of-living crisis taking hold. It's an interesting moment to hear her response. In the first half of this year, the John Lewis partnership reported a loss of £99 million. So I began our interview by asking what she thought was affecting the bottom line. And just to say within the interview, you may hear a little bit of background noise. Having come through the tsunami of the pandemic,

the cost of living crunch has hit very hard. But one of the things we've done because we're a partnership and we're a very, very unusual business in that we're owned by our 80,000 employees, 80,000 partners, is that we took some decisions to forego profit in order to support our partners and our suppliers. So we've introduced a cost of living addition. We've got free food for our partners. So we've been able to take some decisions even though you know the cost of living crunch i mean it's hitting customers it's hitting so is that what you put down i mean if you just look at some comparisons though waitrose figures it was reported you tell me we're down five percent in the last quarter but marks and spencer's food sales went up

seven percent do you recognize that and is that and what do you put that down to because they're bucking the trend so i would i would say a couple of things so if you look at both brands they're both john lewis and waitrose and we've grown customer numbers the customer numbers are up if you compare to pre-pandemic so that's a real positive we're holding on to customers and indeed customer numbers have grown what you also see see, and inevitably, because everybody's, you know, watching the pound in their pocket or purse, is that people are just buying a little bit, a little bit less. If you look at what's happened for Waitrose, actually, we're doing pretty, as the supermarket side of our business, we're doing well and we're holding our own what you have found is that the discount is so aldi and little who were less present with the last recession in 2008

obviously people have you know have announced sort of shopping them with with bigger numbers even with the headwinds of the cost of living branch i'm pretty pretty happy and pretty satisfied with the performance of both brands but But that comparison, sorry, to Waitrose, to Marks & Spencer, why is there that disparity? Because as I say, I think, I mean, I don't know the numbers that you're looking at, but M&S obviously is both a food business and a general merchandise business. Yeah, I'm talking about the food sales going up.

Waitrose on the grocery side. So Waitrose, in the first half that we've reported in terms of our custom numbers we are hanging on and we're doing we're doing well we are finding that that both um waitrose you'll see in the recent industry data by kantar m&s as well there has been a slight softening and it's broadly comparable. What's not comparable are the discounters who are basically doing, you know, significantly better than the traditional competitors. So you're not worried about this? It makes a lot of sense to you? Yeah, I mean, you know...

There's a concern, for instance, that M&S, as more of a realistic comparison, is eating your lunch, so to speak, and what you're doing isn't working. So, no, I mean, I don't recognise that at all. mean we've we've got a partnership plan which we are now in year three of and we're adapting um i think incredibly well not worried about christmas and this period coming up i mean i think you know if any anybody who says they've got a crystal ball for how people are going to be shopping over the next few months you know they're probably doing better than than me i think inevitably people are more conscious of their costs and and what's what we're doing in both brands is ensuring that whatever your budget

um so however much you've got to spend the focus on quality and value you'll get that in in space from both brands i mean it's you did take over at a terribly tough time, the beginning of 2020. And, you know, John Lewis reported its first ever annual loss. And partners, as you've referred to, staff at the company, didn't receive a bonus for the first time. They did receive last year. How's that looking for this year, are you able to say? As we said at our half year results, we had a loss in the first half,

so it'll be everything to play for in the second half. So two thirds of our profits are made in that crucial last eight weeks of the year. It's still all out there. I think we have to see how the next three months run. Because also at this time, and specifically on Women's Hour, we've talked about women working in retail and a lot of job losses and how hard that has been during the pandemic and in light of the pandemic. How many people have you had to let go?

So as you say, I mean, the pandemic was, you know, a sort of economic earthquake for every business, you know, ourselves included. And we had to take some, you know, an economic earthquake for every business you know ourself included and we had to take some you know very tough decisions we closed 16 John Lewis stores and we had about 3,000 of our partners at risk of redundancy about half of those we've been able to find new roles for but it's very difficult you, you're having to face into difficult decisions in order to ensure that... So does that mean 1,500 lost their jobs? It's about, broadly speaking, about 1,500 and we employ about 80,000 partners. You have referred to yourself as the guardian or the mother of the John Lewis partnership.

How have you coped with it personally, you know, getting rid of 1,500 people? The phrase sort of guardian or mother comes again from the fact that as chair of the business, it's not like being chair of a public company. So on the day I became chair, I sort of, you know, there's a sort of whole sort of ceremony, where you sign a sort of document, which is essentially sort of being ensuring that the partnership as an employee-owned business has got duration and longevity so it's a very specific role and I very much see my job as how do we ensure that the partnership so how do we ensure that this very almost what is almost a sort of absurd idealism of a model where you're not maximizing profit you're making only sufficient

profit in order to do good, give back to the community and so on. How does that model survive? And sometimes that means having to take, you know, very difficult decisions, even heartbreaking decisions to ensure that we still have a business that's commercially viable and profitable. And so when we've closed stores

or when we've had to restructure teams you know I've been to every store and you know we've all have three or four hours it's very emotional for them it's very emotional for me because I'm still you know I've got a great love for the partnership and I'm still sort of relatively new into the partnership and there's always a moment in all of those conversations where a partner will say, you know, often very emotionally, gosh, this is really difficult, but if this decision means that the partnership

and this very unusual model continues for a year longer or five years longer, I can accept that. And I guess that's how... Gosh, they're very good people. I'm not sure I would necessarily be able to... If you're losing your job in the middle of a pandemic... But it is the most extraordinary business. And obviously most of my career has been in the public sector,

also very values-driven jobs and very values-driven activities where you're putting customers or taxpayers or the public at heart, there is something which is, I mean, there's almost a sort of religiosity or a sense of sort of mission and commitment to the business that when you're outside it's very difficult to sort of get a sense of. You grew up with faith as a big part of your life. Has that helped you during leadership, during this difficult time?

I think the thing that's really helped me, and I would say this particularly about the partnership role, but I would say about the sort of the luck and the privilege I've had in all the jobs I've done, is that I'm doing a job that I believe in. So we've got two amazing brands and we're an amazing retailer, but we're also trying to do something which is incredibly unusual, not just in the UK,

in the world. So we're trying at scale, 80,000 people, 20 million customers, 12 billion turnover. We're trying to operate a business which is commercially successful, but whose mission is essentially to make the world a happier place. I mean, it's the most, and whether there's a sort of, almost a sort of religious sort of dimension to that, but that's an extraordinary thing to do. We don't have external shareholders, we're not maximising profit. We are forever balancing. Well, actually, should we, you know, times have been a bit tough this year, but actually people need to eat. So let's spend money ensuring that the traditional conventional PLC would have.

Do you think that comes across to customers, though? Because I was going through the service, you know, people talking about on message boards, the customer service, which is going to what stands you out against the Amazons, because you still have department stores. You're one of the last department stores standing even though you've had to reduce the footprint and it's not good what some are reporting so it's just so service as you say is is right it's right at the heart of the partnership and so as I say I'm not saying we're perfect and as I say that focus on the customer whether you're shopping with us in store whether you're shopping with us in store whether you're shopping with us online is something we're all obsessed about and it's teams are forever in store talking to

customers i'm in store um every week every friday either in a john lewis or waitress store talking to partners listening to their issues talking to customers so this is something which is you know it's at the heart of the brand. You don't accept that the quality of the customer service has gone down with the job losses and the current climate? No I don't when I think about how partners are going the extra mile in the difficult circumstances that we all know with the pandemic and you know obviously Waitrose open for all that time John Lewis open closed open closed with lockdowns that focus on the customer has been absolutely critical I think it's something that runs through every single partner in the business how many department stores are left John Lewis so we have 34 we had 50 at the start of the pandemic. And do you think the department store is dead? No I don't no I don't I think yes there are improvements but I am

unbelievably proud. You are looking at now and one part of your business the social conscience sort of part of it is set out an initiative to help people who've grown up in care to find meaningful work. How many people are you hoping to help? How are you hoping to help them? So I would first of all say that the social conscious isn't a part of the business. It's the whole purpose of the business is about how do we operate in a way that's going to be great for our customers, but also great for our communities and so for us the question is in 2022 what what can we do that's impactful for society actually links with a partnership which is all about helping people but also is an area where people have been neglected and from a very sort of disadvantaged background so these these are care leavers? So these are young people who have come from the care system.

So they may have been in foster care. They may have been in residential care. These are young people who have had their most disrupted and their most disadvantaged lives. And where the partnership, and we hope in time other businesses too can really step in with worthwhile work and great jobs and opportunities but also the opportunities to progress. And how many people are you hoping to help who are leaving care do you know? As I say in time hundreds at the moment we are I, you'll understand the young people come from incredibly complex and difficult backgrounds.

So at the moment, we have about 20, 25 young people who are either in work with a partnership or we're training and developing. But we're working with charities, we're working with local authorities, Manchester, Essex County's council, really to ensure that there's a sort of kind of rounded and holistic support so that when they come to us and come to our other employers, they're with us for a goodly time. How does it compare, retail, to your previous life, running Ofcom, being a civil service? I mean, it's really interesting. I mean, for me, I've come into

retail because I've come into the John Lewis partnership and I wouldn't have joined any other retailer. So that's why it doesn't feel as foreign in a way? No, it doesn't. It doesn't. And interestingly, the culture is incredibly familiar. What do you want from the Prime Minister and the Chancellor in their financial update statement? I can't quite remember the name. I think a period of stability and security, I think, would be very much welcome. Any specifics on your shopping list, as it were? I mean, I think, you know, if you look at the last few weeks, I think the best thing for businesses and the best thing for customers is less unpredictability.

So I think a fiscal statement, an autumn statement, whatever they're calling, which gets the public finances on track the markets are confident and and it means businesses like mine can can invest confidently would be very welcome but i suppose it's just we've already had a warning from the treasury an unnamed source telling the bbc uh this week it's going to be rough and higher higher tax rates however that's going to come you know the concern for you i suppose in these last weeks of the year year is people will feel they can't spend as much if they're going to have to have broader shoulders to pay for the black hole. But I think there's a bigger picture here. So for me, it's less about what happens on individual measures. It's more that the financial markets are confident because what we've seen over the last few weeks, which has been

volatility, a lack of stability, and because of that, mortgage rates rising, the costs for business of investment rising, actually getting the public finances on track in a period of stability just gives a much calmer environment for businesses like my own to take the right decisions. As a senior female leader, what did you make of our third female prime minister? I mean, as you know, as a former public servant, I'm not going to get drawn into the politics. Former is a key word there. Yeah, former public servant. I mean, all I would say is that, you know, the most important thing now for whether it's me personally

or the business is that we've got a period of stability. So I very much, very much welcome. But you don't have a personal take on that short-lived premiership of our third female leader that you want to share? No, for me, it's not about gender.

It's about the impact for people, for businesses. No, no, of course. It's part of who she is and what the moment was. Even I remember people getting in touch, listeners getting in touch who weren't particularly supportive of her, but they were excited to see another woman in Downing street uh and see what she could do with it and then there's there's disappointment or whatever the word will be and and that may be others views for me when i look back on the last six weeks i see people's mortgage costs have risen i've seen the cost of investment have risen so it it's less about the gender or the colour

of the Prime Minister. The thing that matters most to me is that we've got the right approach that's going to mean that people... So that's what you're waiting to hear? It really is the most... No, of course. And people... The big imperative. Our listeners have only been in touch yesterday to talk about the impacts of trustonomics, as it's called and and what's happened since i i think it's also just with your experience i was interested to know did you know it could go that wrong that fast i mean it's interesting i guess i was you know a bit surprised by how quickly and how significantly the financial markets uh reacted i mean it's, I have to say it's a long time since I've been in the Treasury. But, you know, if you're borrowing more money,

you've got to make sure that the people that you're borrowing from are confident that you can pay back. So I have to say I'm, you know, I'm feeling more comfortable and more confident that we've got an economic plan and a fiscal plan that's going to give more stability, but also mean for ordinary customers and people a bit less worried, hopefully, about their bills going out. It's interesting to hear you were also surprised

by the speed of the response with your experience. How's Christmas looking in your house? Are you ready? Gosh. You were very prepared i i sort of veered between buying baubles in october and you know lastminute.com so the good thing is my waitrose delivery slot actually for myself and my dad have been booked other supermarkets are available which is um which is fantastic you're on that okay and because of

course we'll get ready very soon for the john Lewis Christmas advert. Yes, so watch this space. Anything you can... I can't. You'd have to shoot me or my team would shoot me. I'm not going to do that. It's going to be very interesting. I'm not going to do that. We've wanted to welcome you to the programme for a while. Let's not end it like that. Dame Sharon White, thank you for your time.

Thank you very much indeed. Dame Sharon White, the first female chair of the John Lewis partnership, trying at the moment to run that at the most difficult time, the most challenging time in the company's history. Many messages coming in. I promise to come to them. They're absolutely glorious, hilarious, and some of them quite shocking in equal measure about relationships between mothers and daughters.

All of that to come with some of my next guests. But to stay with the news and to bring your attention to something I'm sure some of you have seen, if not many of you, a young girl being held at the Manston Migrant Processing Centre in Kent threw a message in a bottle over its fence yesterday saying pregnant women and sick people there need help. The letter, written in broken English,

said 50 families had been held at the Manston unit for more than 30 days. It described conditions as like a prison. The Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, is visiting the site in Dover this morning. The most senior woman in government has been criticised for the overcrowding there, and the Home Office is now facing a judicial review into its handling of the small boat migrant crisis. What do we know then about conditions for women and children being held in the Manston Processing Centre right now, And what might the future hold for them? Well,

joining me now the BBC's Sean Dilley. Sean, this is quite a moment this letter to be thrown over. I mean, it strikes anyone looking at this that what we're hearing is reports of a humanitarian crisis on UK soil from people in particularly vulnerable positions. We hear from the young woman who threw the bottle to journalists stories of how they would like to be let out to speak but they're not being allowed. They've not given access to telephones claiming that 50 people, 50 families had been there for 30 days. Now, it's rather important to say that people are only supposed to be there for 24 hours while their asylum applications are processed. We've heard other stories claiming humanitarian suffering, people sharing mattresses on floors with 150 other people in the same room. We've heard of overcrowding. Now, this would but particularly obviously mothers and children we've heard stories of how people are not being

allowed to leave the facility and we've heard stories when even when people are being removed and packed onto coaches to London to stay with families and friends how some people have been told they've been they claim they've been told they're going into hotels only to find that they arrive at Victoria Coach Station on Tuesday night, for instance, to find that there is no hotel and nobody knows where they're supposed to be going. And some details in this letter, there's around the food, making people feel unwell,

talking about a pregnant woman in particular and a lack of aid or medical assistance, a child with Down syndrome not feeling well and being ignored, a description of comparing it to prison. And I wonder from that detail and from what we learn, as you say, it's different to how it's meant to be. Do we know the numbers of people there? Do we also know the numbers of women? We've got an idea on numbers generally. We haven't got a breakdown in terms of women or how many people are there today. But to give you a bit

of context, the maximum capacity for this former military site is supposed to be 1600 migrants. Now when people are being processed in 24 hours, those numbers, they make sense. But what we're hearing are from the local MP is that just a few days ago, that capacity had reached 4,000. If you can imagine 4,000 people in a space for 1,600, they're pretty dynamic. And we certainly know that women and children are among this group. Now, by the government's own concession, I mean, they say that migrants are having their basic needs met. We're obviously hearing contradictory accounts of that. But by the government's own concession here, they say they hope to get to a point where people are being held legally within the law,

which obviously at the moment, clearly, is the case that they're not being. Yeah, and I suppose the insight into this is quite new and how we're finding out information. I mentioned that the Home Secretary is expected there today. What do we know about that and the response so far and what could be likely to change? At the moment, we know that the Home Secretary is under an awful lot of pressure about overcrowding, generally because she and her recent predecessors were very aware of their legal obligations. We know that Grant Shapps during his very brief tenure as Home Secretary had started to make some moves. There's been controversy in terms of whether people are

going to hotels and what the cost is to the taxpayer. So we can expect the Home Secretary to recognise that there is certainly, if nothing else, a situation where there is a perception of a humanitarian situation. She will seek to reassure people that basic needs will be met. And she can expect an awful lot of scrutiny, not just from people on the ground, but opposition parties as well. And just going back to the original reason we were talking and specifically on Women's Hour,'s letter that's come over. I mean, are we expecting more contacts, but it's a very unconventional means of addressing journalists. The letter was addressed to journalists and officials to throw it over a fence. Indeed, the letter itself saying that they would like to come out and speak to people.

Remember, this is not a detention centre. This is a processing centre. Conditions have been described by other immigrants who are supposed to be processed within 24 hours, but claim they are there for days and weeks on end. That conditions are like a detention centre, that it's like prison conditions inside. And certainly in terms of the letter in a bottle, I want you to just hold on that thought of a letter being thrown in a bottle to journalists in the United Kingdom. Claims of disabled children not having their basic needs met. BBC's Sean Dilley, thank you very much for putting us in the picture. And there's a photo of that letter, which is available to see online on the BBC News website and elsewhere.

But we give you an insight into what was said there. You have been getting in touch, mainly by text and email this morning, talking about the idea of working with your mother or with your daughter. And I'll tell you why we're talking about that at the moment. I'll certainly introduce you to the two guests who are living that reality in just a minute. But I wanted to give you a flavour of some of these messages. And a particularly good one, someone listening, which I love to hear this from Andalusia. Helen Louise says, I worked with my mother in our hotel slash pub business

for several years. We were well known for our explosive relationship. So one day, after gutting a couple dozen of fish, she was covered in blood. I went out and I went to the bar and I was covered too

where a few regulars were having a pint. Still holding my knife, I said, she went too far this time. Their faces. No mothers were hurt in this instant. Honest.

Hope says, I cannot work with my mother for more than 10 minutes because of her inconsequential withering, wittering, light whistling and pointless questions. She was successful in a professional job before retirement and is still relied upon by local organisations and her friends to organise and lead. But when she's with me, she changes.

She talks about nothing nonstop, asks questions that she asks all the time, never listens to the answers. When slightly out of range, she starts sighing. She whistles and gives a running commentary on what she's doing. And then she asks me how to do the simplest of tasks, such as cutting up potatoes. She can't seem to calm down so we can just enjoy being together. And this is the best bit, the last bit of this message from Hope. It's probably my fault. And if that doesn't sum up the guilt, the love, the passion, the intensity of mothers and daughters, I don't know what will.

And so it goes on. I have to say, there are lots of examples of people saying that they've worked with their mum for years, and it's been brilliant, and they've had success. And I will come to them, just one here saying, I think our success has been down to the fact we have similar outlooks and approaches to business, and that she leaves the tech stuff to me, and I leave sorting the admin to her. She can be really annoying. Her ability not to double book herself drives me crackers, but she's going to retire soon. and while I feel really pleased for her, I'm going to miss working with her.

The laughter you can hear is Caroline Quentin, of course of Men Behaving Badly fame and many others, and her daughter, Rose Quentin, who are not only appearing in a play together, George Bernard Shaw's Mrs Warren's Profession, playing the fictional mother and daughter duo

of Mrs Kitty Warren and her daughter Vivi. Vivi, I'll tell you a bit more about her in a minute but they're also on tour so we need to get into that a little bit. Vivi is a Cambridge graduate with ambitions to become a lawyer but suffers a crisis of conscience when she realises her education and entry into what they call respectable society

have been funded by her mother's work in the sex industry let's hear a clip here's vivi trying to work out what her mother actually does for a living do you know who you are speaking to miss no who are you what are you you little imp everybody knows my reputation my social standing and the profession I intend to pursue. I know nothing about you. What is that way of life which you invite me to share with you and Sir George Croft's prey? Take care. While I shall do something I shall be sorry for after and you too.

Caroline, Rose, good morning. Hi, hello. I'm so thrilled to hear about the whistling. You whistle when you're out of earshot? I'm so thrilled to hear about the whistling you whistle when you're out of earshot I really love the idea that when your daughter's trying to work you're like and just sighing

really unhelpfully in the background I may start doing that rehearsal today if that's alright is that ok Rosie that's fine Rosie we've given you some ideas this is not going to be good we will come to the play but I have to say, I'll start with you, Caroline, so I'll finish.

It struck a real chord, this. I mean, the idea of working, let's come first, with your daughter. We'll ask about working with your mother in a minute. But how have you found it? How are you finding it? I was never concerned about it remotely, and I'm still not, actually. We like each other hugely but we're quite good at giving each other our own space

and I think I think how are you 23 or something I should know that I know yeah exactly who am I and I think I was nervous about it but then the minute we got into the rehearsal room

I suddenly realised that of course I'm working with a professional person and that's all there is to it that said I know that I'm still quite mumsy and I do keep saying things like I think at this point my character would do this stop biting your nails

it's hard not to be mother and actor I bet i do think you need a right of reply here rose how is it from your point of view i've stopped biting my nails um yeah like you say we are mother and daughter and there's it's been great for that because there's a shorthand to intimacy because you know nine does that turn you don't know the actor you're working with before. But we do, so that's not a worry. We really trust each other in the room. We know how each other work. Do you argue when you're not working together?

Do you have that sort of relationship? Do things fly or spark? We disagree. I mean, we do disagree. It's not a volatile relationship, I wouldn't say. Not like Kitty and Vivi Warren are at each other's throats. Yeah. Which, personally, we're not in real life. But I mean, we have our moments. Like most parental relationships, you sometimes disagree about things. Are you sharing digs on the road? Are you doing that? No. I wanted to. Hang hang on let's get into that

just for a moment again you wanted to I said should we share digs and she went don't be ridiculous I went absolutely not why don't you want to live with your mother while you work with her I love her but when you're when you're working with someone every day and you will I we shouted each other every night I hate her in the play. I don't know if I'll go, you're here again, are you? I think it would be important to have space, don't you? Because then when we see each other, we're like, oh, hello. We'll see each other in the day if we're, you know.

We're loving seeing each other every morning. I have to say, to look across the rehearsal room and see one of the people you love most in the entire universe right opposite you is just the best thing that's ever happened to me. I said that to Sam to um my husband and Rose's father this morning I just said it's I see her every morning it's so lovely and it and it's um it's a it's a gift actually of a gig for us really there are as I

say many who feel the same about that yeah and doing that although some of the best comedies coming in if there are different views I mean there, there's one here. No way would I work with my daughter. She's bossy, thinks she knows everything and doesn't listen. She silenced me years ago. We get on if I don't speak, which would be difficult in your line of work. Indeed. So there's a whole thing here that's just come in as well.

I just want to say I'm horrified to hear that last message about the mother who won't stop talking and whistling. The writer's not my daughter, but has described me perfectly. I now feel so sorry for my three daughters. I'm going to try harder, says Meg. That's very sweet, Meg. Bless your heart. It's a conversation going on here.

Isn't it? It's brilliant. Which is always what I hope for on the radio. I genuinely do. And so it carries on. I'll come back to those. But you do play Kitty Warren. I play Kitty, the mother. Yeah.

And do you relate to her in any way? Yes, worryingly. I really do, actually. It's an extraordinary bit of, I don't know, people may or may not know George Bernard Shaw's writing, but it is revolutionary. It was written well over 100 years ago. It's about sex workers. It's about morality. It's about society. It's about judgment. it's about hypocrisy, it's about the church. It's also a comedy, rather brilliantly and a huge tragedy at the same time. I mean, I don't know George Bernard Shaw's work, I'm ashamed to say, but

if this is a starting point, I'm going to find out more because the writing is extraordinarily detailed. And what do you relate to about the character? Well, about the character, I think, unfortunately, I relate to quite a lot of the negativity. I mean, she's a monstrous person. And I find it incredibly easy to touch the monster in myself.

And I've struggled with it, actually, because, you know, I grew up with quite a volatile mother who was, I think, bipolar, and we used to call it manic depression. And she was a very volatile woman. And Kitty is... I recognise so much of that. And I recognise a lot of Kitty's... Kitty grew up in intense poverty with a lot of abuse

and poor treatment and her mother was volatile and I think... I recognise a lot of her anger, her rage, her sense of injustice and her sense of wanting to do the best for her children and

actually getting it wrong a bit, which hopefully I don't recognise that part of it. But you don't know if you're getting it right or wrong, do you? We don't know. Again, on messages coming in, lots of guilt on both sides about relationships and how it works. You play the daughter, Vivi, who's polar opposite in character. How would you describe her?

Is she opposite? Well in some ways. On the surface when you first meet her you think oh she's self-possessed confident no-nonsense sort of young woman who wants to go do math which is and law which is hilarious for someone like me that can't struggles with math but I think ultimately there's a lot of damage from that because she's been sort of neglected her whole life she's been in foster homes she's been to boarding school and has never had parental guidance or love or nurturing so she's quite damaged in that way so she's turned to academia um for that but you see her like her work and throw herself into her work like Kitty does. And she doesn't know what it is her mum does, but they are both very work centric, money centric.

And you do see a point where her anger comes out and you see they are the same. They're made from the same stuff. Yes. And so there is that connection as well. Yeah. Did you want to go into acting because of your mum? You know know we've also got messages about people following in their mom's footsteps yeah um how did that come about for you it's sort of I suppose like anything if you see your parent doing or parents you know

doing something you sort of have a natural draw to it you know I was always on set or I was in a rehearsal room or you know watching her so it was a natural thing it was like a like being a nurse like being a teacher you see your parent do something you you know but I did fall in love with it I really fell in love with it and always kind of did and mum was like please is there anything else you want to do you know literally anything else and I was like no and then do you know what? I never felt that really, though. No. I didn't actually.

I mean, because you are good at lots of things. I mean, you are good at lots and lots of things. I mean, you're a great musician. But my mother named it when we saw you in your first school play and Rose walked on and got a laugh. And there was a look on her face and my mother turned to me and went, oh, God, we've got another one. But I also also imagine you know

it must be and i know you've said this yourself in a in a recent interview you said it's hurtful when people especially my friends think i've only had opportunities because of who mum is it must be hard and tricky from that point of view about you know accusations of nepotism and now you're in a play together yeah massively so it's sort of that thing of we know another daughter. I resent it. I resent it because I think I know lots of doctors whose children are doctors. I know lots of dentists whose children are dentists. I know that Buster Keaton was in a vaudeville act

with his parents and no one ever said, why is that four-year-old on stage with you? And basically, we're continuity of that. We're vaudevillians. We are just travelling players. you know we're just a we're we're continuity of that we're vaudevillians we are you know just um traveling players and and there's no reason why my daughter shouldn't do what i do my son i have to tell you has no interest in it at all and is studying politics and religion at leeds so he will not be following in so you know it's not necessarily a given it's if you have a desire

for it and if you are good at it and I'm very proud to say she's really good at it yeah well I think that's the fact that you feel though that you have to sometimes say that is part of it isn't it yeah frustration it's a tyranny and I think it's leveled at women more than it is at men that's another do you I 100% do you don't hear it you do not hear it about uh male actors who are sons of acting parents. It's levelled at one point. It's more a dynasty, perhaps, at that point. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Indeed, indeed.

All right, I'm sitting with the dynasty. Let's go with that. You are. I was thinking of you saying, being on many sets, men behaving badly. Was that too long ago? That's where they were. Oh, yes, OK. No, she wasn't born. At the beginning. I didn't know if by the end there was a...

No, you were born after... I met Sam on set of the last ever series. So you weren't born until Jonathan Creek, actually. That was your first set. That was the environment of which to become perhaps inspired. But it's interesting because you, you know, thinking about men behaving badly, do you think it would pass muster today?

No, I don't. I think I think quite right. I think it would probably it would probably work if there were two women living in a flat together and the men were sort of subsidiary characters. I don't think it would work as the way it worked then. But it must have been a great laugh. It was a great laugh. It was a great laugh. And the cast, I believe, is still you're still friends.

We still knock about together. Well, you know, I mean, life is very busy and we don't see as much of each other as we used to. You know, we've all got busy things busy things but no we're all still friends did you lament that it couldn't quite be like that today you know we've talked about changes in comedy and people being concerned about you can't say certain things you know that's a big yeah i'm not sure about the tyranny of sort of um of of um of of politics in comedy. I'm not sure about it. It's not, listen, it's not my world anymore.

But I think we should have, we should be grown up enough to be able to voice anything and everyone should have a voice in it. And we should also sometimes hear things that make us uncomfortable. And maybe that's not quite where we are at times. Talking about being uncomfortable, Jean says, working together with her daughter,

we would be lucky to last a day. My daughter would strop off and I would be left in tears wondering what I'd done wrong. Just another reason. It's OK. It's OK. There's some good things here. I loved working with my mum as a newly qualified teacher reads this message. She was a brilliant mentor an inspiring teacher I definitely grew in confidence

under her guidance I also loved working with my grandmother as my boss whilst working as uh for doing Welsh as an adult's tutor both my mother and grandmother have an inspiring work ethic and I love them that message so there you go We have to leave it in a good thing. Yeah. Because you two seem to still be intact. We're all right. We'll call you at the end of the tour. Yeah, I want to hear it all.

I still think there's something in you you didn't want to share, Diggs. Anyway, Mrs Warren's profession opens at the Theatre Royal Bath from 9th November and before dates in Richmond, Chichester, Guildford, Cheltenham and Truro. Good luck to you both. Thanks, darling.

Both on and off set. Thank you. We will see. There you go. And just in case you want a bit more inspiration, my daughter applied for a job in the same office as me, albeit on a different section, eight years ago when she was 17

and wanted to drop out of college. We are still there. Love it. We shamelessly talk shop at family events. Our employer has invested in her training. She calls me mummy with her tongue firmly in her cheat when in the office and some grown men follow suit, says Rosemary.

My mum's slapdashing would come up against my perfectionism in an instant, but I could work with my mum forever nonetheless, says Anna. And so it carries on and some brilliant tales another one here saying my mum's my easiest client we produced a kid's music book together i did the illustration and design and unlike my other clients she was actually delighted with what i produced and asked for virtually no changes now let me tell you who's just walked into the studio my next guest

is someone who possibly had you jumping on and off your sofa earlier this summer if you were supporting the England Lionesses in the Euros and were part of the 17.4 million people watching. If you were supporting any other team, you probably weren't her biggest fan. But I bet you marvelled at her skill. I'm talking about Beth Mead. Not only the Euros Golden Boot winner, meaning she scored most goals overall, but also awarded Player of the Tournament. And the accolades just keep on coming.

Named England's Women's Player of the Year last month, runner-up in the Ballon d'Or, which decides rather the best player in the world. Bethy plays for Arsenal in the Women's Super League, has a new book out called, you guessed it, Lioness. Good morning. Good morning. You've walked in, you've run in. I've run in, yeah.

That energy. Nice and active. I can feel it already. How does it feel at the moment for you? I know you've carried on playing very much. You've got a big career going on. But after that, how do you deal with it? Yeah, even listening to you list them things off is, yeah,

still quite surreal and weird. But it's took some adapting since. Honestly, this summer was incredible the support that obviously we got behind us um from England from the UK from worldwide was incredible and you just feel like you're thriving from it and we did something special but obviously we did that on a football pitch but much much more than just football yeah and has your life changed a little bit a little bit yeah um walking down the street has not been the same as it used to be um getting a little bit more attention um tried to go on holiday a lot of people knew me in Greece and that was weird for me. But yeah, it's been amazing. I mean, I kind of love that side of the game

and interacting with fans and people in general. But yeah, it was a little bit of adapting to get used to that kind of lifestyle. In your book, you go back to the early years and many girls now looking to follow in your footsteps. Their parents also, some of them have been in touch this morning to thank you and your teammates for the inspiration. did you get into football my mum actually helped me get into football um like you said quite active when i walked in the room but i was quite an active child um had a lot of energy and loved sport in general um my mum took me to a saturday morning session

in our local village and kind of was like take her get rid of a bit of energy and he was the guy who was obviously with all the boys at the time and he was kind of like oh it's quite rough well she'll be okay my mum's like just throw her in she'll be fine came back an hour later and he was kind of like she can play football and she's rougher than most of the boys so it was something that when I played I walked on the pitch and everything else just disappeared. I love doing what I do and, yeah, credit to my mum and obviously my dad and things. They supported me so well in doing what I do

and getting to me where I am today. But, yeah, my mum kind of kick-started that journey. And there were, though, some parents tutting, saying things like, look at this little girl. Were you reacting to that? Did you notice it? I think for me at the time I got on the football pitch it was my safe place

didn't hear a word just played football but my dad always told me if you hear anything or anything said let your football do the talking don't say anything back and it was the best advice

he could have given to me. I think I got taunted every time I came on the pitch by the boys that we played against and their parents. But by the end of that game, I had got a lot of respect from them because I was playing football just like their son and doing it pretty well. I mean, you did your first trial for England at 12 years old.

It's a career you have to stop thinking about when you're very young. Have you got advice for anyone who wants to do it? For me, at the moment, I think football has got so many pressures. It gets so complicated to a certain extent. And my biggest advice is, I mean, obviously working hard, big, big one, but play the game for why you started playing the game, for the love of the game. And I think I kind of lost that a little bit in the sense of

got too involved in the outside noise instead of actually getting on a pitch, being happy and enjoying think I kind of lost that a little bit in the sense of got too involved in the outside noise instead of actually getting on a pitch being happy and enjoying what I do well and I know that people around you have been very important as well especially when you're away from home for long periods and very much in people's minds will be Serena Vigan the English the England coach you know what did she do for you and how did that relationship work yeah serena's been incredible from the moment she got here in september last year um she's honestly got an aura around her that just makes you feel comfortable and calm and she did that throughout the full tournament with us with such a pressure uh moments that we were still so so calm with her

and i felt that looking at her on TV. I just wanted to know her. Honestly. She's great. The highest pressure moments is she's so chill with her arms crossed or something. It was honestly incredible. She needs to teach us. She's not pacing in a waistcoat.

No, literally no. No Gareth Southgate at all. But yeah, she was amazing. The environment and culture she brought into the group from day one and the confidence she gave the group and myself individually to, again, enjoy my football and do what we're good at. I think sometimes you just forget about that and put your pressures on yourself.

You actually forget why you began doing what you're doing. And the relationships off the pitch are also very important. You talk very openly in the book about your relationship with fellow Arsenal player Vivianne Miedema and Viv and Wright. I would love to help bridge the gap between men and women's football when it comes to the perception and acceptance of homosexuality. Why do you think it's so different for men and women in the game? I mean, we've kind of made it the norm from day one. We haven't felt the need to come out and give a statement of who we're with and what we're doing. We've just of made it the norm from day one. We haven't felt the need to come out and give a statement of who we're with and what we're doing.

We've just classed it as normal life. If I want to put a picture on my Instagram with Viv, I do, but I don't caption it, this is my girlfriend, this is what we're doing, blah, blah, blah. Whereas, obviously, in the men's game, they kind of feel or have to make a statement of that situation. And for me, it's been a culture. That culture needs to shift.

Obviously, we're in the 21st century, and at the end of the day, you fall in love with who you fall in love with. It doesn't matter of who they are. And for me, I think that's the kind of perception that we need to get across to that. Is it a generation thing? Is it a culture thing in the game?

But I would love to help try and bridge that gap to make it just an arm. Well, it's nice because when you went to the Ballon d'Or awards ceremony earlier this month, a caption of a photo of both of you, you were referred to as her guest, despite coming as runner-up. Yeah, that was a fun one. We joke about it. Obviously, she posted it on social media. But yeah, I come runner-up in the Ballon d'Or and got called Lids guest. So yeah, we made a good laugh about that one.

It's good to keep your feet on the ground, isn't it? Oh, it humbled me instantly. But also, we've been talking this morning about working with your mum. What's it like playing with your partner, honestly? Yeah, it's interesting sometimes. I think you get the balance of understanding each other's lifestyle. You know what you're going through. You know what your daily schedule looks like,

how your body physically feels, how mentally it can be challenging. But, yeah, it's hard to sometimes get home and switch off if one of you are a little bit annoyed about a session or a game or say I've played well and she didn't and I'm in a high and she's low. Then that's sometimes difficult. You're not doing, like, a victory lap around her? Oh, yeah, around the room. She's sat on the sofa and I'm wh a high and she's low, then that's sometimes difficult. You're not doing like a victory lap around her? Oh, yeah, around the room. She's sat on the sofa and I'm whizzing round.

God, she'd kill me, I think. Listen, you're just Viv's guest. Well, exactly. I need to sit down and just do as I'm told. Remember that position. You know, a serious point that is in people's minds, though, I did want to ask you about, which is the Men's World Cup being held in Qatar,

a country where homosexuality can be punishable by death. That's coming up very shortly. It's been criticised by LGBT groups. For instance, on the politics side, the Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer, said he won't be attending due to the country's record on human rights. Do you think it should be going ahead? For me, from the minute it was announced,

I thought, I mean, it's not the best idea I think obviously they're um the way they think and how they go is complete opposite to what I believe and respect and although I'm cheering for the boys who were going to play football there I still don't think it's the right place but unfortunately money talks and the situation even of the stadiums being built and the amount of people that have passed because of that um it's I mean it's not an ideal situation it's not something that I will be backing or promoting at all um but unfortunately it is going ahead and yeah um just disappointing, I guess, in that sense of made compulsory part of girls' PE for at least two hours per week.

Where are we up to with that? Because both of them have had a stab at being Prime Minister now. We've got Rishi in, of course. Yes. Obviously, we're on a great platform to kind of want to demand that. And for us, I think it wasn't a lot to demand two hours of PE per week shouldn't be but we did have a meeting with Liz Truss obviously that's maybe been thrown back a little bit since obviously Rishi's come in but hopefully we can have

conversations with him and the education secretary and kind of figure something out but big credit to a lot of Wubun Moy who's my Arsenal teammate who's kind of pushing behind out. But big credit to Lotta Wubben-Moy, who's my Arsenal teammate, who's kind of pushing behind the scenes and we're kind of supporting her with that. But we're a little bit in between things at the moment, so we haven't got that definitive answer. What was that meeting like with Liz? I mean, you know, she was in for such a short time. A whirlwind, just I think like how it was.

But yeah, she came to see us on the pitch one day and then obviously Lotta and Leah Williamson the captain had a separate meeting with her behind closed doors

so yeah it went well she was on board but obviously we'll see how it goes from there do you relive

winning do you relive that moment from this summer that moment is there a moment you go back to you know how your mind takes you back to great moments.

What's the bit for you? I think, I mean, the main one was the final whistle went, we'd won. And every possible emotion came out of you. It was a weight lifted off your shoulder. We'd actually gone and done it. The happiness, the tears, the sacrifice, every single emotion burst out your body and honestly it was incredible just being on that pitch

and hearing the crowd roar in England, the home of England at Wembley, like you'll never ever recreate that feeling ever again but my favourite feeling was literally seeing my mum, dad and brother and giving them the world's biggest hug after we'd won it. That must have been amazing. Honestly, everything came out. I think we literally, all four of us just stood and cried

and just tried to soak it all in, but incredible. What did you do that minute? I can't remember. What was your response? Did you run very far? Like, when it went, when you heard the whistle? Oh, I sprinted to the middle of the pitch to all the girls and jumped on everybody.

Put close by. I didn't... To be fair, honestly sprinted to the middle of the pitch to all the girls and jumped on everybody. Put close by. I didn't, to be fair, all of us didn't know what to do. We didn't know what to do when the whistle went. We just ran around like loonies. Well, I think that's a completely fair response. And it's what we were doing. I had to do it quite quietly because my son was asleep and we were away and I was just absolutely

biting the pillow with happiness. Lioness, My Journey to Glory by Beth Mead is out to buy on November the 10th. Beth, it's lovely to have had you in the studio and to talk through so much of your career and some of your memories. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.