Woman's Hour - Dame Tracey Emin, Doreen Soulsby, Dame Maureen Lipman, Young Adult Fiction

Episode Date: September 20, 2024

Dame Tracey Emin, one of the most famous artists and leading figures of the Young British Artists movement of the 1990s. Hers is a uniquely provocative, confessional style which confronts issues such as trauma of abortion, rape, alcoholism and sexual history. In recent years Tracey has focussed on painting and she has just published her first in-depth exploration of her painted work, simply called Paintings. It coincides with a new exhibition, I followed you to the end, at the White Cube gallery in London, which features mostly paintings that her treatment and recovery from bladder cancer.A man who raped, and stabbed a woman 60 times in Northumberland 27 years ago has been recommended for release by the parole board. Steven Ling was jailed for life in 1998 after murdering Joanne Tulip. Ms Tulip’s mother, Doreen Soulsby has condemned the decision. She shares her story with Anita.Dame Maureen Lipman proposed to her partner, David Turner, as a joke. And he said yes! The two 78-year-olds are now engaged. Dame Maureen joins Anita to tell her the story of how it happened, and why she was the one who proposed. Since this summer, Woman’s Hour has been taking a deep dive into the world of 'genre fiction', the women who write it and the women who read it. We’ve turned the pages of Romantasy; Science fiction; Historical novels; Spy and Thrillers. Today it’s the turn of YA, Young Adult fiction. To discuss the YA genre and what’s in it for women, Anita is joined by Catherine Doyle, co-author of the Twin Crowns trilogy, whose new YA novel, an epic, enemies-to-lovers fantasy, The Dagger and The Flame, is out this month; and Laura Dockrill, author of Lorali and Big Bones.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Some of you will know that we've been doing deep dives into different genres of literature and today we'll be discussing all things YA, young adults. So, take me back to your youth. Tell me about the book you read that meant the most to you and why. Tell me about your teenage self and how meaningful that book was for you.

Any Jacqueline Wilson readers out there? Did you read Angus Thong's Imperfect Snogging? How about Adrian Mole? Or were you reading the Twilight series over your daughter's shoulder? Or maybe your son's daughter. I read The Hate U Give. That was excellent. Or, like me, were you secretly reading Wuthering Heights

with a torch under the duvet? I'm already looking forward to reading your messages and learning more about you. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can contact me on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us via our website or WhatsApp or voice note us

on 03700 100 444. Also on the programme, Doreen Soulsby, whose daughter Joanne was brutally murdered in 1997. Stephen Ling was convicted of her murder and after nearly 27 years in prison,

is set to be released. Doreen will be speaking to me shortly. Also, Dame Tracey Emin will be telling us about her powerful new exhibition on at the White Cube Gallery in London and a new book simply called Paintings. Also, Maureen Lipman has proposed to her partner. We'll be congratulating her and getting the story. But how about you? Have you proposed

to your partner in later life? How did it go? Get in touch with us. The text number 84844, your thoughts and opinions. Welcome on anything you hear on the programme, as always. But to my first guest, Dame Tracey Emin is one of the country's best known artists. She was one of the leading figures of the young British artist movement of the 1990s. Her work confronts issues such as trauma of abortion, rape, alcoholism and sexual history. Her famous artworks include Everyone I've Ever Slept With, with 1963 to 1995. And she came to greater prominence in 1999 with a Turner Prize nomination for her famous piece, My Bed. In recent years, Tracy has focused on painting and she's just published her first in-depth exploration of her painting work,

simply called Paintings. It coincides with a new exhibition, I Followed You to the End, at the White Cube Gallery in London, which mostly features paintings that document her life during treatment and recovery from bladder cancer. I went to see it last night. Incredibly powerful. Dame Tracy Emin, welcome to Woman's Hour.

So nice to have you here. Morning. I want to congratulate you. I saw it last night. So powerful, so moving. It's not going to leave me for a long time and I can't wait to talk to you about it. But before we do, can I start by asking how you are? I'm okay.

No, I mean, when someone asks how you are, you're supposed to just say I'm oh yeah I'm fine or whatever but I've actually I'm actually not very well at the moment but it's not cancer so that's a really good thing but it's my not wellness has come at a really bad week I've got to say you've got a lot going on I've got a hell of a lot going on maybe that's why I'm not very well. I think a lot of us suffer from stress, internal stress and things. So maybe it's just a touch of that. I don't know. I hope so.

Yeah. Rest, rest, rest. Can we start by taking you back to the 90s? Because you said painting back then was unacceptable. And now you've released a book of paintings. What changed? No, no, no. I didn't say that.

I did not say that. You misquoted me. I don't want to do that, Tracy. Go on, what did you say? Painting was not accepted. Painting was not officially, it was like people had just completely dismissed painting in the 90s. To be a painter was exceptionally difficult, even if you were a dismissed painting in the 90s. To be a painter was exceptionally difficult,

even if you were a great painter in the 90s, like Baselitz or Kiefer or Paulurega or Marlon Dumas. But painting, and especially figurative painting, wasn't respected in the 90s. There was a whole different genre of art, different media being used, and it was incredibly difficult to be a painter and be accepted as a painter. There was a whole different genre of art, different media being used. And it was incredibly difficult to be a painter and be accepted as a painter.

When I left the Royal College of Art in 1989, I was a full-blown, giant, expressionist, figurative painter. I realised if I was going to have a career in art, this was not the right direction for me. It was never going to happen. And so I just sort of gave up. I thought well there's not much and I made I wrote a lot I made things I did everything I could do apart from paint basically and I still carried on drawing and then over the last years the last 20 years I really started painting again because I love it and that's what I do and and it's it's it's love of my life now it's brilliant it's fantastic to have it back in my life so I never said that definitely what I meant was it was unaccepted by the rest of the art world by art

history by what was happening socially economically even and and at that time in the 90s I mean Goldsmiths was on the rise and you had an artist like Michael Craig Martin that's got a show on at the moment who is the head of Goldsmiths you know and Michael said to people you know um a glass of water can be art it's very Duchampian so there was a big encouragement in the 90s for people to use anything but painting. And I realised that I just had to be an artist and find a way. And if it meant giving up painting, then that's what I did. And it worked out for you. And now all your paintings are in one place.

What was it like looking through them for this book? Well, first of all all the book's published by fiden and it's a massive sort of like anthology of my paintings not all of them maybe about a third it's a book of about 300 paintings and it's i think it starts off in about 1999 or something out to the present day um um it's it's quite shocking actually to flick the pages and actually see one after another in one small place uh and to see that amount of work i was i surprised myself really in what way well like when when you paint you don't you don't think about what you're doing you don't think about the time it takes you don't think about what you're doing. You don't think about the time it takes.

You don't think about the energy. You're just doing it. It's just part of you. And then when you see it all compiled into a book, say 300 works, you realize how much time and how much energy and how much, you know, sports people usually, well, I don't know, sports persons, do they know how far they've run? They know if they get a gold medal, but they don't know how far they run necessarily in a lifetime. So it's a bit similar to that.

Like actually seeing all the works together made me think about the amount of work involved. And did you reflect on that time? Yeah, some of the paintings made me feel really sad it's like looking through a diary. Which ones in particular? Well there's a number of them I think the main ones that were around 2016 when my mum died all the paintings of my mum and some of the paintings were from memory of her actually dying and remembering what she looks like when she died and and that was quite different seeing them in the context with all the other works um if you paint with emotion and feeling i'm not painting a

picture i'm painting something which is already part of me that's coming out. And there's lots of different kinds of art and reasons for making art. I would say art has many rooms, and artists take a room. The room that I take is this emotional kind of like, you know, mad room where all my energy and everything gets thrown into it. And it's like another, if I didn't paint, it's very cathartic. I think if I didn't paint, make art, I don't think I'd be here really. I think I would have definitely have died or something spontaneously combust, something like that.

It's an emotional response. But you have some artists that paint or make art that's not emotional. It might be intellectual. It might be political. There's different reasons why they make the art. It might even be for money. So you have some artists that just paint pictures for money or make art for money.

They're in another category, another world. But if you make art for an emotional response from within yourself, it's very cathartic. And what's very important about that is you don't have to be a great artist to do that. You can be sitting at home with some children's paint at the table, just painting and painting and making marks and releasing some kind of energy. And that's more what I do really I'm always say I'm bit like a cave woman painting on the walls well I certainly

felt that emotion when I stepped into the white cube yesterday I felt it instantly there were it was the charged atmosphere it felt it was it felt raw but it also felt like a raw, a woman's raw. So I want to talk about that piece. But actually, before I do, we had Tracy Chevalier, the author on a couple of weeks ago, talking about her new book. And she talked about this flow state. And she said that when she flows, she feels like her readers will flow as well.

So I feel like it's similar to what you're saying. What a great time for traces. That's what I've got to say yes absolutely all the great traces tell us about the exhibition i followed you to the end how did this come together well um i i've been working on it for about three years so a couple of years without knowing that i was working on it it's just paintings that have accumulated and then when I realized that I was definitely going to do this show and I had the titles it all started to fall into place and into shape and I followed you to the end every all my titles it's a bit like my neons they have like a double meaning um acceptance of everything you know and and that's how i feel

about art and that's i will follow art to the end to my dying days to my last moment i will always be an artist making art and then also there's like i followed you to the end like a fool i followed you to the end so and i think that refers to love and and emotion and and when things go wrong as well and so a lot of some of the work in the show is about a failed love affair and some of it is about following my mum to the end when my mum died because there's one image which is like a cross between me and my mum on a deathbed and also when I paint I never really know what I'm going to paint which is always exciting for me so I start with a giant canvas and just start painting and then it just sort of

starts to fall into shape so I'm doing a painting and I suddenly realize it's not me it's my mum so that will shift my my focus on my idea about how it's turned out or what it's not me it's my mom so that will shift my my focus on my idea about how it's turning out or what it's telling me and I always say this thing about when you go to a fortune teller you don't want to you don't want to be told what you already know you want to be told what you don't know what you need to find out what you need to investigate or you might be told what you don't want to hear which is important and it's a bit like that with my work i i i my work tells me something that that i don't know and it informs me and that helps me with my life and helps me with my living and for anybody out there that says art isn't important would it be better that I would be dead or alive? Much better that I'm alive.

And art keeps me alive all the time. Keeps my brain alive, keeps my heart alive, keeps my soul alive and keeps me living. And if that happens to just one person, that's me, imagine how it affects so many other people. And at the moment, I keep saying to people that they have to understand how important art is. The world we're living in at the moment is such a mess. It's so greedy. It's so damaging. It's so harmful. Nobody's putting the brakes on with anything. by man which is art or man or woman can exist let's celebrate that let's triumph that let's push that because all the good things that we push in the world will ultimately push out the bad it

has to happen but there just isn't enough good and art is one of these things that we create as human beings which should be celebrated and rejoiced in like sort of, almost like how people would celebrate the ancient gods, you know. We need to have things in life that we make, that we believe in, good things, not bad things. We're with you, Tracey. We're with you all the way. And, you know, I know that from what you're saying, you've always needed art to survive. It's obvious.

I just wonder how much it helped you through your cancer recovery the last few years creating that work and what what is it that we I mean I've been to see it and it's all there I mean the body the bed let's discuss the importance of the bed because we're back in your bed and a lot of those paintings um you know how how has painting helped you well my my surgeon was at white cube the other night and he said to me tracy how did you do this because they're really really physical they're huge there's a massive sculpture yeah and and the most amazing thing is when i because i'm i'm even though i'm out you know i'm out in remission i'm out of the cancer after having you know half my body parts removed it's like I'm never going to walk again properly I'm never

going to do this again properly I'm 61 anyway you know and when I'm painting it just feels like nothing ever happened to me nothing I'm just there in that moment you know and I always say it's like those people that you know have have have terrible strokes or something and then you put them in front of the piano and they're just playing you know the most fantastic bark or whatever they're just completely like the most they forget everything bad that ever happened or they forget that they can't play the piano and me it's like that when I'm painting I'm just in my world in my element I'm so happy and that's what happens to me and I think I think that can happen to a lot of other people and this is what I'm saying art is really positive art is a really fantastic thing it's not just

about something you hang on the wall it's not a trophy it's not just an expensive thing it's something that has been made by a human being with feelings in that resonates that you can feel and that's why you felt something going to my show, because you felt what I was feeling, it come through the work. And as an artist, when you reach that stage with your work and you know that's happening, it's alchemic, it's magical, it's spellbound, and it's like I know I've reached a level with my work that is really true, and that only comes through the hard work so to go back to what

you said about the father book my paintings that is also what I was thinking when I was looking through it oh my god what a lot of hard work yeah so nothing comes from nothing nothing absolutely uh as mentioned the bed we're back to the bed the bed features a lot you know the bed is about recovery safe space sex you're in you're sitting on your bed right now i am yeah i spend a lot of time in bed because um i don't have much energy and all my energy i have i have to um save it and use it for special occasions for special things save it up you know like this week i was saving up all my energy but um for my opening and everything and um and people don't really understand it's like my doctor says make brilliant like if you're

in an air crash and you survived you wouldn't just get up and walk away and like I've survived one of the worst cancers ever that most people don't survive from and if they do survive from it they only live at maximum another five years I'm in year four now I've got another year to go to get past that really dangerous phase and I'm doing it and I'm doing it the best I possibly can and since the cancer and the most amazing thing that's happened a lot of people say this when they've had this life and death thing is that every day that i live now is is a real day a whole day a true day and i really make the most of it so even if i'm spending the day in bed resting i'm doing an interview yes absolutely we are delighted that

you're doing it my time yeah um also you've set up the tracy emin foundation um because you're looking towards legacy now so tell us a bit about that. Well, when I had six months to live, I thought, oh, Christ. Like you mentioned me being like a great 1990s YBA. Well, that wouldn't be enough for my deathbed, I promise you. I'd have to do a little bit more than that. So I set up this foundation, started setting up the foundation, and then I started getting better and better and better.

So I thought, well, it doesn't matter. I'll carry on with the foundation. And now I've set up an art school. I've set up the studios. I've set up like flats for creative, homes for creative young people, good rents and stuff I've done. I'm doing all of this stuff to make creativity and art especially good in Margate so that's been like a wonderful thing and I'm not dead so I'm actually enjoying every single moment of it as well I never thought I'd get so much out of something like that

because it's hard that is hard work yeah because it's having a real job which I've never had in my life because you're an artist I've always been an artist always just been doing exactly what I want to do so I'm very very happy yeah you know you know your art gives us so much you know you know what you're doing it's proper purpose work as well and like I said legacy it's always a joy talking to you Tracey uh thank you Tracey Emin and your exhibition I fold you to the end is on from now until the 10th of november at the white cube in bermondsey thank you so much and tracy emin paintings is also available now we just had a message a shout out to tracy good morning women's hour as one artist tucked away in cloudy norfolk to an outstanding artist on your program this

morning i'd like to say hi to tracy and big up us women artists. Yes, big up to all of you. The text number, if you would like to get in touch, is 84844. Now, last week, the Parole Board recommended that a man who raped and stabbed a woman 60 times in Northumberland 27 years ago should be released. The Ministry of Justice is currently examining if there are grounds to appeal the Parole Board's decision. Stephen Ling was jailed for life and he admitted murdering 29-year-old Joanne Tulip on Christmas Day in 1997. He was sentenced to a minimum of 18 years and has so far served an additional nine years in prison, having never met the release test. A Parole Board recommendation to transfer him to an open prison was also overruled in the interest of public protection.

At Stephen Ling's parole hearing this July, two psychologists gave evidence, with one of them saying that he is no longer of the risk level that requires him to be kept behind bars. But Joanne's mother, Doreen Soulsby, says she believes Stephen Ling still presents a danger to women and that his release would be a betrayal. Doreen, thank you for joining us to speak to us this morning.

Morning. What's been the impact of this news on you? It's just knocked me for six, me and my family, and not only them but friends, everybody I know has been shocked that such a serious and dangerous offender has been released directly into the community. And of course, we are going to request reconsideration of the decision by the Parole Board,

which we're preparing at the moment. Hopefully, the Secretary of State, Lord Chancellor, will challenge that decision by the Parole Board. I can only hope because he shouldn't. He should never be released, bearing in mind what he did. It was so disturbing and just shocking. What concerns you the most if he is released? Oh, the safety for women.

Because he's been in prison from the age of 23 and he's only 49 now. So he's never socialised, obviously, with women all that time. And his... How can I put it his appetite will be um i would say sky high um we you know socialize with women again we contacted the ministry of justice for an update and this is what they said to us they said our thoughts are with the family and friends of joanne tulip at this difficult time the lord chancellor's first priority is keeping

the public safe she's asked officials to scrutinize whether the decision should be returned to the parole board to reconsider they have until the end of the month uh to decide you described his potential release as a betrayal who is it a betrayal of um A betrayal of we as a family and Joanne, you know, what she suffered. This guy is very dangerous. And just by what he's done, he hasn't changed in prison. He's still got the same feelings in prison as he had 27 years ago and my fear is he's going to go out there and the danger is as we talked at the hearing as was talked at the hearing because we saw the interview of the um psychologists and the

prison offender manager and the community offender manager um stephen ling didn't appear on camera or we couldn't hear him and it was supposed to be a public hearing never mind um the things we heard um they were they were actually saying you know he would be high risk to strange adult females i.e people he doesn't know like joanne she didn't know him um and i just can't understand how they can release such a dangerous man knowing all that yeah and the parole board said that stephen ling's release would be subject to a set of licensed conditions to replicate conditions which would have been included in a sexual harm prevention order i know you know all these i mean these include

enhanced supervision and monitoring being subject to gps tracking for 12 months restrictions on the use of electronic technology and exclusion zones to avoid contact with your family yeah multi-agency um monitoring well all these multi-agencies are under-resourced and under-staffed and I've got no faith in them being able to do a proper monitoring job because of that. We did, Doreen, reach out to the parole board. I just need to say what the spokesperson said to us. They said parole board decisions are solely focused on what risk a prisoner could present to the public if released and whether that risk is manageable in the community. A panel will carefully examine a huge range of evidence and reports in the lead up to an oral hearing.

Evidence from witnesses such as probation officers, psychiatrists and psychologists, officials supervising the offender in prison as well as victim personal statements may be given at the hearing. It's standard for the prisoner and witnesses to be questioned at length during the hearing, which for this case took two days. Protecting the public, they say, is our priority, number one priority. And that was from the parole board. And as you know, their recommendation for Stephen Ling's release is now with the Ministry of Justice. Another element of this is that even though Stephen Ling admitted to rape and was charged, the rape charge was left

to lie on the file. So he was never convicted of rape. Yeah, that was because the judge at the time at the trial, because the murder was a greater and more serious offence, he decided that the rape shouldn't go to trial because it would be an abuse of court process and it would upset the family. And we weren't even asked. Of course I would have wanted to go through to trial. So the bottom line to that is he's not a convicted sex offender in this horrendous um offense that he committed so now

you've got a man who's you know he's not a convicted sex offender he could be released he could be living next door to you and you wouldn't know he was a sex offender when he's not sort of a proper sex offender if you get what i mean he's not convicted so he's not a sex offender he's not on the sex offenders register it's absolutely bizarre how are you feeling today how are you feeling having to talk very angry very angry about the whole thing and frustrated because it's very hard to try um to i don't know get, get our points over to the parole board? Because, you see, I think the psychologists believe everything he said in the hearing.

And how do we know that he's being honest? And, you know, they say they're confident he can manage himself when he's released, if he's released, manage himself and diary when he gets these feelings. And but left to his own devices, I very much doubt it. He's supposed to be going to abstain from alcohol. As you know, the Lord is with the Lord chancellor now and they have yeah they haven't they haven't they have a month yet to decide i think it's really important um during um that we actually talk about joanne talk about your daughter yeah yeah we're not going to go into details of the attack because it's too it's too graphic to mention but i'd really like to know how you remember joanne joanne well i, I remember, well, it's two pictures.

The picture of Joanne as a very happy, smiling girl, all the time smiling, full of fun, bubbly, blown. She was a hairdresser, full of chatter, just loved life and she wanted to travel and um she was difficult to live with but she was just a happy girl and after she passed you find out things from friends of hers of how caring she was like she used to put notes through a friend's doors if she hadn't seen them for a while saying how are you haven't seen you for a while you know um and she had she had me when she was um murdered she was just coming out of ME, so she wasn't strong, so she wasn't working. And birthday presents, she never missed a birthday. She didn't have much money because she was on benefits, being on sick.

But she still insisted on buying birthday presents. She was just very caring, and I miss the mother-daughter chat, you know. She was always on the phone, always. Hello, you know, what are you doing? Well, just about every day. Is there a particular happy memory that you go back to? It's funny this um she because she lived with me for a while before she moved into her flat and um she just used to be going off somewhere and she wouldn't tell me where she was going and of course there wasn't mobile phones then and but she kept a diary a very detailed diary

and i used to kid her on that, I've got friends everywhere, Joanne. I know where you've been. I know where you go. Well, I used to look at her diary and know where she'd been. And I used to say when she came, I know where you've been. I've got friends everywhere, you know, Joanne. Reading her diary. Did she know you were reading her diary? No, she didn't. No, she didn't. But she was always happy, loved being with her friends, loved parties and just loved life, you know.

And she was loving life that night when she was murdered beforehand with a group of friends in the pub in the village where she was murdered beforehand with a group of friends in the pub in the village where she was murdered. How do you cope with Christmas as a family? Oh, well, we don't. My husband and I, he's not Joanne's father, that finished a while ago. We've been married 30 years now and seven years on even before that. We go away in December.

I can't bear the Christmas hype because Christmas to me is just happy memories. And this thing keeps getting closer and closer. Because Joanne was murdered on Christmas Eve. So we go away at the beginning of December. I mean, the hype started now. So we go away at the beginning of December because by then this hype is everywhere. You can't get away from it.

Somewhere where the people that live in that particular country maybe can't even afford Christmas and are struggling to live, you know. But we always have to come back for christmas eve um because i like to go down to be with joanne at her grave um and on christmas day and i feel if i'm not there i'm letting her down. And on Christmas Day, we don't have Christmas anymore. My husband and I, it's 27 years now, and I still can't bring myself to share Christmas with our son and his family. So my husband and I, we just stay in after we've been to Joanne's grave. And we don't have Christmas food. We don't send cards. We don't do presents to anybody. And we might get an

Indian takeaway delivered or something. Anything to keep away from Christmas. And once that day's over, I can relax a bit more. I just hate it. I hate Christmas. What's driving you to keep doing this work? How are you coping? Well, I want justice for Joanne. I don't think this guy should ever be released. I think he's a real danger to women. Having been in prison all those years,

I'm sure that the first thing on his mind will be to socialise with women again. I just fear for the safety of my family, the women in my family, because the exclusion zones are ridiculous.

I mean, like a 10-mile radius. Because we don't know where he's going to end up living. But I have a feeling it'll be back up here up in Northumberland somewhere. Doreen, I want to thank you for taking the time out to speak to us this morning. That's okay. Thank you for having me. Thank you, Doreen. That's Doreen Soulsby. And if you've been affected by anything in this interview, we have got support links on our website. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex

stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now. The text number is 84844. We started the program with Dame Tracey Emin. Lots of you getting in touch about that conversation. I've just listened to Dame Tracey Emin and it was the single most wonderful, inspiring and

truthful interview I've listened to. Lucy Tweedy, who's an artist in Devon, wasn't it just, have stopped everything to listen to Dame Tracy I'm so so moved by her thoughts and the place of that art has in her life in our lives she's a true icon as someone else has said I could listen to Tracy for hours so inspiring so strong and so happy talking about art and another one here saying hello all you lovely people at woman's hour hello to you listening to tracy emin has brought me to tears and given me so much hope i've just

been diagnosed with colon cancer i'm waiting to hear how far it's spread on my treatment pathway additionally i'm waiting to hear if i have belharzia and if the cancer is related to it waiting um is so hard hearing tracy talk about how she manages her day gives me so much hope and inspiration. So thank you so much. Thank you all, especially Tracy. 84844 is the number to text. Now I'd like to wish my next guest a huge congratulations. She is also an icon, an actress, comedian, writer, showing no sign of stopping at the age of 78. We don't want her to. And now she's engaged. Dame Maureen Lipman. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Congratulations.

Hello, Anita. What an amazing programme you're hosting today. I'm very, yeah, it's extraordinary. It's really extraordinary. It really is. And you're giving people lots of time. So don't worry if you don't want to talk to me for very long. I completely understand.

Can I tell you how this happened? I read the news yesterday and said, we need to congratulate Maureen. Can you tell us the story? How did this proposal come about? It wasn't planned, was it? Well, it's all come from a diary I wrote for the Spectator magazine, having gone to a Spectator party and saying, boy, have I had a week.

I'll write it. So I did. And it's been picked up alarmingly. The fact is, David Turner and I met, what, 16, 17 months ago. And in fact, his son and my son used to write together and marriage has come up the m word it has come up but you know at this age and plasma is the last thing on my mind frankly I'm between here and Corrie Coronation Street I don't know I've got a flat there I'm living here I don't know where I am so so we sort of shoved it under the carpet and we went to Edinburgh to see some shows and came back on the train.

And you know how you sort of knee to knee on a train. And he he he David lost his wife not that long ago from dementia. She sounds like she was the most incredible woman. And she had this for five years obviously i lost jack 20 years ago um and i was i had a wonderful partner guida who died during covid so um you know i didn't ever want to get engaged i've never been engaged jack and i didn't get engaged you know we're grown- grown-ups. So, anyway, we're on the train, and he happened to mention that in the Jewish calendar,

because he's more religious than me, he just happened to mention that it is Tuberav. Oh, I said, what's that? He said, it's a minor festival, but it's a joyous day when, you know, things happen, and it's one of those, like a leap year. It's like when women can ask men to marry them, that sort of thing. And I just couldn't resist, you know, the sort of juxtaposition of the gag.

And I didn't really take it that seriously. But what I did was I just slid under the table. And once I'd got my knee on the floor, I said, go on then. He said, what? I said, will you marry me? And he was so excited and happy. And then I couldn't get up.

Couldn't get back in my seat because I was too old. And that's it. Do you think he dropped a massive hint, Maureen, that you weren't? No. He's very like Jack Anguid in that way. He's not a manipulative person at all. I mean, look, three of the nicest men in the world have been through my life and all I've got to do is just keep living and not be mean.

And, you know, it's easy to be mean to a nice person so I'm just on my best behavior and everybody seems really pleased and then a world which contains things like what I've just listened to today um it's a bit good news yeah I'm panicking slightly but then you know what sort of reaction did you get from your friends and family? What happened? So you've proposed, he said yes, you're on the train, knee to knee. Well, the thing is that I thought if I wrote about this week in which I got my car stolen, had an angiogram and ended up eating a pancake in a warm seat in the middle of Hampstead in a car. Just your average week then?

Yeah, I just thought it would be, you know, it would be funny and it is funny. And I didn't really, I'm very naive. I didn't think the world would, not the world, this sceptred island would be quite as excited. But we do need some nice news. And, oh gosh, last night we, you know, it's lovely. People keep coming up and ringing and, yeah we got to do it now and tell us about the policeman because he said your car your car had been stolen when it was returned on the same day just that you know i was a bit breathless i had this test to sign i was going to have a stent but i didn't need a stent but while i was in there

some someone because someone nicked my car and it's like a 12 you know it's it's it's an old honda jazz in bright orange you would want it except me and so um i gave up on it and then i was going we we decided to tell everybody individually i've got two kids he's got three kids all married with families and a brother and a brother-in-law and we decided to but it took a it you know we were going off and it was jack's birthday so we had a cake we're going off to wheeling to my son's when the phone rang and they said yeah my late husband jack was celebrating his birthday and um and the met rang and it was this lovely, adorable policeman, Simon Hussein, who turned out to have a Jewish mother, worked that one out,

and he said, we've got your car. So we turned around. Of course, the thing is, my natural negligence in that I did not fill up the car, because I like to get it right, because I hate filling up cars. So because there was no petrol in it, they hot rodded it taken it and it ran out of petrol five minutes from my house so i just waited with the policeman and they put the jump jump leads into my car and people were going past and shouting oh that's what the meth are doing now is this service in celebrities right so it was um uh you know then we went to tell everybody and everybody had a different reaction.

And we ended up starving in the high street, having a rubber cheese pancake, as you do. As you do. And since then, it's just, you know. I know it's early days. Do you think either of you will change your name? Will you change yours? Will he change his? Well, his original name is, I love it. His name is, original name was Truskaloski. And I think Moe Truskaloski on a marquee in the importance of being earnest.

Moe, roll up, roll up. I think that would be great. I've never really enjoyed my name, but I was just too lazy to do anything about changing it. I did uh toy with it you're you're Maureen Lipman you'll be more day Maureen Lipman we've had a couple of messages in actually Maureen I proposed to my partner of 10 years on top of the Empire State Building we were married in Las Vegas a few days later that's from Sue you could have a Vegas wedding we've got some ideas here um uh you covered how I met my partner on a bus back in 2021 for

your Valentine's Day Women's Hour show today you asked about proposals I did I did and later now she said well busman proposed to me on his 60th birthday in April almost five years after meeting me on the 55 bus when he was 55 and we will wed on our 55 day next year 5525 there you that. Wow. Not at all contrived. When's the big day going to be? I don't know. I don't know. And I am having a slight sort of panicky dream.

Look, as far as I'm concerned, we are married. So everything else is a party. And thank God for letting this happen. Wonderful. It is wonderful news um and we are delighted for you i wish it for everybody who's who's on their own i wish life was that simple but uh ruler my friend ruler lens could tell me that when she uh was with dennis water and the late dennis water and her mother who was, introduced him as, and this is my daughter's fiasco. That's what I'm using at the moment. Wonderful. Well, enjoy your fiasco.

That's what life's all about. Dame Maureen Lipman, always a pleasure. Thank you. Great news. Thank you. 84844 writes, I started the program by asking you about the book that defined your youth and you've got in touch you never fail i remember reading judy blooms forever over and over again a heartfelt book about the journey into a first teenage and sexual relationship

completely changed my world view who can forget r, the name Michael gave to his penis? Another one here. Don't make me giggle, Laura.Croll. I'm just going to introduce her. Let's get on with it and we'll come back to some of your messages. Since the summer, Women's Hour have been taking a deep dive into the world of genre fiction, the women who write it and the women who read it. We've turned the pages of romance science fiction historical novels crime spies and thrillers and today it's the turn of ya young adult fiction now despite the name apparently it isn't just teens reading it according to a survey this year by the publisher harper collins older readers are increasingly picking it up due to behavioral changes described as emerging adulthood or delaying adult life. Interesting. Well, to discuss the YA genre and what's in it for women,

I'm joined from Galway Island by Catherine Doyle. Morning, Catherine. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's an absolute joy. Co-author of the Twin Crowns Romanticy Trilogy, her new YA novel, An Epic Enemies to Lovers Fantasy, The Dagger and the Flame is out this month. Looking forward to that. And you heard a giggling Laura Dockrell, author of Laura Lee, about

a mermaid who rejects her life and the laugh out loud big bones with me in the studio. Welcome both of you. Hi. Hi. So nice to be here. Hi Kat. Hi Laura. Laura, I'm going to come to you first. If it isn't, it's not just teenagers reading it. Well, let's start by defining the genre.

What is it? So YA does essentially just mean young adult. And the clue is really in the name. It's kind of made for that middle gap between Tracy Beaker, if your favourite book is Tracy Beaker like mine is, and then adult, adult fiction. But really, it's the most exciting genre because it's always changing and I think what's so elastic about it is that the readers in the community are kind of shaping it

as it goes so it's really alive in that bacterial way where it's always moving and the readers kind of get a real say on what they like but as the audiences are a lot of the time adults and I think that's partly because of the fantasy the the escape and the nostalgia, really. And Kat, let's talk about the sub-genres. Laura's mentioned a couple there that exist within it. Romantasy is massive, isn't it? That's you. Tell us all about it.

Tell us about some of the layers you can get in. You are the Romantasy girl. I love that. Yeah, Romantasy is kind of the new hot ticket if you will in YA and that's really a combination of romance and fantasy so you know your classic enemies to lovers soulmates love triangles those kind of um evergreen themes and they're usually then set in a world that's more fantastical than this one so no no taxes, no mortgage. You were looking at places that have magic or witches or dragons or just small sprinklings or, you know,

sometimes it can be a completely other world. And as Laura was saying, it provides, I think, not only kind of epic, swoony romance, which I think is always enjoyable to read and to write, but also an escape maybe from the everyday trials and tribulations, if you will, of either homework, school time or just adulthood in general. I've got a message in. We get quite a few messages. 84844, by the way, is the text number.

You've got about 10 minutes. Get your messages in. I'm going to read one out from Joe who said, I'm a middle-aged partner in a law firm. YA remains my go-to genre of choice. I can't afford to get bogged down in self-indulgence. It cracks on with some great plots and characters. Yes, maybe a little predictable in places, but that's quite comforting in a difficult world.

They're both nodding. Laura, what do you think about Joe's message? Definitely the comfort is always, you know, I feel like there's these kind of moments where a book, you know, series like Twilight or Hunger Games will kind of happen. And they really are a moment. And it's just amazing. Even, you know, they kind of go global hits in that way. But you've suddenly got this time where maybe all of the family are engaging in something together at once.

So it can bring a sense of comfort. Everyone's piled up on the sofa, maybe reading the same book. And that is just such a huge sense of togetherness that I think YA really encapsulates. And I think with all the kind of competition we've got with, you know, whether it's TikTok or social media, you know, TV, Netflix, it's just so nice to have something that literature is always thriving, bringing everybody together

and having that other sense of touchstone point for a family. It's really important. Kat, I mean, I remember a time when people used to say that film and tv were a threat to books but as Laura's just mentioned them there let's bring them in tiktok book talk social media in general how are these changing things for YA? I think book talk has been amazing for YA because what it's doing is it's creating communities around books and book genres particularly in young adult fiction. So people are gathering in these online realms to share their love of a certain book or a certain genre.

And I think that's only increasing the interest in reading in general, which is always a good thing. And I do think, you know, as with anything, a good story is evergreen and it's not going to go out of style anytime soon. But I think TikTok is probably one of the most exciting platforms for readers, you know, not necessarily for authors or maybe less so for authors. But certainly as a reader, I get, I'd say, 80 to 90 percent of my recommendations, my YA recommendations from TikTok. They saw me coming. I'm very easily marketed to. But Kat's right. The community is so strong in the YA world isn't it like you go to an event it's inclusive it's diverse everybody supports people and as we say that it's just a real they have a say in what the the landscape of like is as like in the genre so it's just so exciting

you are doing such a good job of bigging up YA that I reckon people who've never picked up a young adult book in their lives this weekend there's going to be a rush on on books who's writing them is it is it more women behind them um i think i'm not sure it probably statistically is if i had to guess laura i don't know if you'd agree i'd say this it is more women i do think um i remember i was about 15 or 16 when twilight came out so you can imagine it was mass hysteria in my school. But that really marked Twilight and Hunger Game, a kind of a new era of these kind of female-led sort of YA stories that have just gone from strength to strength and have been, you know, becoming more and more exciting as time goes on.

But I would guess, but I don't have the stats. I don't know if Laura has stats on that. I have no stats. We're writing them. I have no stats. We're writing them. I have no stats. But I would say ask your librarian, you know, if you want to get stuck in. And I mean, the reason why I am excited about it is I visit a lot of schools and seeing there's so much young talent out there. And that's what I really want to see, you know, publishers listening to the young people that are actually writing these stories, bringing them into the classroom.

But it lives outside the page, you know, whether that's in your own community, open mics or taking it to social media, but giving that talent a pen in the young people's hands. We've talked a bit about the sub-genres, but are there common themes that we can pick out even within the sub-genres that reoccur? I think what we're looking at really in YA

is that first flush of maturity, first love, bloss maturity first love blossoming friendships blossoming lifelong friendships it's really about growing up and growing into who you are and I think why so many adults like to read it is because we can all remember those experiences they're touchstones for us as well it's that sort of sense of possibility and hope and as one of your listeners said it's like the stakes are, but usually you're guaranteed a satisfying ending or a satisfying conclusion, which is, I think, really comforting, especially in such an uncertain world that we're living in now. Yeah, they're all coming of age books, aren't they? I mean, it's so difficult.

It doesn't matter who you are. Just navigating being a teenager and becoming a young adult is so tough. Whereas Maureen says, I wrote this on my hand. Yeah. Keep living and not be mean. Can I just say, I wrote the same thing down. Did you? I wrote it on my hand. I've also got Maureen on my hand yeah keep living and not be mean can i just say i wrote the same thing did you i wrote it on my hand i've also got maureen on my hand now did you yeah i wrote the don't be mean to nice people i mean not that i am but you know but just don't mean

and yes how funny that we both are writing well it's the title of my new book now excellent now unless i get in there first sorry Laura. Sorry, where were we? Coming of age, I think you were saying. Yes. I'm going to read a couple more messages out because quite a few are coming in. Anita, as a child born in the early 70s and a teenager of the 80s,

the books that made a lasting impression on me were the Kevin and Sadie books by Joan Lingard. They brilliantly portrayed the cross-community conflicts in Belfast, totally relatable and heartbreaking. So they also go to quite difficult spaces as well. Oh, big time. It's definitely a place to spar or punch out any big themes,

politically, emotionally, what you've got going on at home. So that's why I think young people especially need these books because they can see themselves in their pages where they might otherwise not. Kat, let's talk about your process a bit because you co-write with your sister-in-law. How does that work? Yes, that's right. I've written the Twin Crowns trilogy with my sister-in-law, which is now complete. It was a lot of fun, you know, getting to, I suppose, spitball ideas off each other. And then when the books come out, speaking of community, Katie and I would throw a coronation ball every year as the launch and we would get about 150 to 200 readers from all around not just the UK some would fly in from Europe and they would don their most beautiful ball gowns

and some of them their dads would make shields and swords for them or they'd come with knights and it was just this incredible celebration of sisterhood around a story about sisterhood, you know, princesses separated at birth, and then written by sisters. So it was a lot of sisterhood. But I think it's one of the most positive things about young adult fiction in today's world, especially in conjunction with social media, is that these communities form around the love of a book. And it's so nice to see that in practice. And in reality, it's really uplifting as an author and as a reader. Very empowering, very wholesome. But what's the process? Do you sit together?

Well, we wrote it actually, we wrote the first one in COVID. So I live in Ireland, and she lives in London. So it was like a very long five hour Zoom meeting of brainstorming. And then I would write, because it's about twin sisters separated at birth, I would write one twin's narrative, and she would write the others. And then I would write, because it's about twin sisters separated at birth, I would write one twin's narrative and she would write the others. And then we would send chapters to each other every time we completed a chapter. So it was quite intricate editorially. The publicity and marketing part of it is always more fun because you get to be together. Yeah. And throw big parties and wear ball gowns and have shields. I think we do this with all the genres. We'd love to get you both to recommend

some books because there were probably people who, as I said, will want to read something maybe this weekend. So what books would you recommend? In fact, what did you read when you were young and give us a recommendation? Well, for me, I absolutely, right now, I love Divine Rivals by Rebecca Ross. It's about two rival journalists in the same sort of newspaper who are writing during a war and they hate each other during the day, but at night through magical means they become pen pals and they fall in love without realising that they are the enemies that they see each other during the day.

I love enemies to lovers. My favourite thing to write, favourite thing to read. And then growing up I loved Lainey Taylor, Daughter of Smoke and Bone that trilogy is just has my heart even now how about you Laura um I mean you reminded me of Flowers in the Attic not that I'm recommending that to anyone it's a bit too saucy but um I have to say if you're just starting out you've got to read Noughts and Crosses by Mallory Blackman she's the queen queen of YA. Yeah, we are nodding away. Is the thing now for books to be picked up by TV and film companies? Well, hopefully.

I think there's a huge interest, yeah, in kind of YA adaptations. I mean, as an author, for me, I mean, it's obviously the dream to see your work come to life, but it's kind of out of our hands to a certain extent yeah how does it happen I guess you've got agents and your own wizards pulling strings in the background Laura I think it's a bit of that and it's funny because everyone wants to write a YA once it explodes everyone goes oh YA is really taking off but by the time the vampires are past or the zombies or whatever's next, the tooth fairies, it's been and gone, you know, and there's a new trend. So write what you want to write, I would say to anybody. What's your predictions? Where's it heading next?

I'm hoping some short stories happen. You know, the graphic novels really taken off. That's what's so cool about it. Maybe some poetry. So breaking a form and seeing some sort of new things on the page. I think that would be really cool. Yeah, that would be good. How about you, Kat?

What do you think? Yeah, I like the sound of that, actually, Laura. I'm going to hop on that answer. Something a bit different. I always love romance as well. So if we could keep it a little bit in romance just to satisfy me. Going from enemies to lovers, maybe? To soulmates.

I don't know. I'm just hoping. I've loved speaking to both of you. Laura Dockrell, author of Lorelei and author Catherine Doyle, whose new YA novel, The Dagger and the Flame, is out this month. Thank you, both of you. I'm going to end with a couple of your tweets coming in. My favourite YA book is The Black Riders by Violet Needham.

To this day, I can still feel the pure escapism I had when I was reading it in the hallway of my parents' house, sitting with my back against the radiator. And another one here saying, from Michelle in Devon, listening to Tracey Emin's words about how art saved her sitting with my back against the radiator. And another one here saying, from Michelle in Devon, saying listening to Tracey Emin's words about how art saved her and helped her in her cancer recovery resonates so clearly with me. Every day I draw or paint, it allows a blissful release. Do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Imagine a scrap of data that could help rescue a man lost at sea. That far north, most people aren't found. This is a race against the clock. Or expose staggering financial fraud. All the Swiss banks, the British banks, the French banks. What I was looking at was a horror show. Or uncover a medical breakthrough.

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