Woman's Hour - Dance Special

Episode Date: December 16, 2020

As we approach this year's final another chance to hear Jane Garvey celebrating all things Strictly.A dance special with chief Strictly judge Shirley Ballas, Love Island participant and professional ballroom dancer Curtis Pritchard, Professor of Dance History Theresa Buckland from Roehampton University, Sujata Banerjee, a Kathak artist and educator and Ingrid Mackinnon, a choreographer who teaches jazz, ballet, modern & African dance. We find out why dancing makes you feel good plus Curtis gives Jane a twirl round the dance floor and proves it's never too late to put on your dancing shoes.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good morning. And Joe, away you go, Jo. Right, that's Jo Stilgoe, who's our fantastic pianist this morning. We are just celebrating dance. The live Strictly shows are back, 7 o'clock, BBC One. And what we'd like from you this morning, actually, is just your dancing pictures, your dancing memories. Bung them all our way please. Social

media at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram. You can email the programme via the website. I'd like to know how you started to dance, where you've done your dancing. Did you meet your partner at a dance back in the 40s, 50s, last week, whenever it was. Let us know

and we have a really brilliant line-up of guests this morning on the programme who all want to share their joy of dance and in-dance. Shirley Ballas is here, Strictly's head judge. Great to see you, Shirley. Thank you. It's nice to be here. You are the Queen of Wallasey.

And now the Queen of Saturday Nights, which is a great place to be, isn't it? Absolutely. I'm stoked. I isn't it, actually? Absolutely. I'm stoked. I can't wait for tomorrow to start. And you're a bit nervous, aren't you? I am, actually, yeah. Always at the beginning of the series, you know,

just hoping that everybody can move along and do the right thing and get a good start, you know. So, yeah, but I'm nervous too. I'm sure everybody is that gets started. I got a bit of a tingle when I heard the music there. Did you? Well, the plain fact is, this is a high point of many people's year. You can't underestimate this.

It's TV gold. The nation genuinely does, across generations, get together on the sofa and watch you strictly on a Saturday night. Well, I think by the time we come to August, we already know we're running up to Christmas. You know, those cold nights where, like you said, the family, the children, boys, girls, mums, dads, grannies and grandpas can all sit round and enjoy this show together.

It's a phenomenon. It's just an amazing show. And dance, of course, is at the heart of it and learning to dance. And I've already said to our guest today, I can't dance. It went down like a lead balloon because apparently everybody can dance. Professor of Dance History, Teresa Buckland, is from Roehampton University. Teresa, welcome. Thank you for being here. We'll talk to you in a second. Sujata Banerjee is a CATAC artist and educator. Welcome. And you're going to tell us a little bit about your particular form of dance as well, aren't you?

Yes, I will. How closely associated is it to ballroom, if at all? It's dance as much as that. It's a dance and that's the only link. That's the only link, I would say, to deal with the bodies and move with the rhythm. So there is always a connection. Right. OK. Also here, Ingrid McKinnon, who's a choreographer. Welcome, Ingrid.

Thank you. Currently working with the RSC. I am. Doing what? I'm working as a movement director for First Encounters Merchant of Venice, which is an adapted version of Merchant of Venice to give young children aged 7 to 13 their first encounter with Shakespeare. Right, so it's a way in for kids. Yes, yeah.

And movement matters. Even in a production like that, I probably wouldn't associate The Merchant of Venice with movement. Movement matters in all productions. I think having a movement director on majority of theatre productions really adds value to the physical language of any play, which helps tell the physical story as well as the actual written story. Truly, truly valuable. Okay, well we'll talk more later in the programme. And

we've got Curtis Pritchard here, professional ballroom dancer. I have to say charming. You walked in here three minutes ago, Curtis. You've got us all in the palm of your hand. I mean, what is it about you, do you think? First of all, I want to say I feel very privileged to actually be here on a woman's hour, you know, around a table full of lovely

young ladies. She says all the right things. Well, no, it's fantastic to be here. My mother's always told me to say that. Mrs Pritchard knows her business. Right, is that the end? no no

talk about dance and everything how it's about my life how everyone was saying around the table dance to me dance is movement it's movement to music and it's a way of making your soul, your mind happy, healthy and your body

healthy and happy it's just making your soul, your mind happy, healthy, and your body healthy and happy. It's just expressing your emotions, your freedom, your enjoyment, your love, your sadness, anything through music and putting a smile on people's face. Thank you. You certainly do that this morning. Shirley Ballas there. At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram.

Now, Shirley, because you are the head judge, you were taking it. It's a difficult role, this, and it's particularly difficult, I would suggest, for a woman to take over that role. Because you really, I'm not just buttering you up, but when you came, to me, as a viewer on the sofa, you added value because I felt I learned something from your judgments. But nevertheless, some people, possibly because you're female, they're not sure they like that, are they? Well, when I first got the job, I mean, for somebody of 57 to get that job was amazing. I'd done no TV whatsoever before, but I do know my trade. I've been doing it since I was like five years old.

And I wanted to bring a technical aspect that perhaps the viewers could start to understand a little bit about what we're judging or what I was judging. You know, I didn't want it all flowery and just, oh, I love your dress. I really wanted to try. And I tried with my hands to express what was a heel and what was a toe, what was inside edge of the foot,

what was outside edge of the foot. So I was trying to develop little methods that perhaps the audience could identify with. That's my whole thing is I want to reach those people in the homes and I want them to understand why I have to send somebody home if you don't vote. And just to generally see things a little bit from the way that I see them. I do try to balance the technical aspect with the energy and the excitement of performing because that's all important for me is how you bring that love of music just like Curtis said you know that love that heart it's all important it's not just about the technique at the end of the day really I'm going to say this the technique really doesn't matter you need it it's like a little bit of a

guide but the whole body the whole process of how you're moving is majorly important and did you expect to be to be criticised a little bit? I've been criticised all my life so for me it was just the normal thing. But your credentials as you say are absolutely impeccable. Thank you. So there was no reason to criticise you and yet some people do they is it just that some people don't like to be told things by a woman who knows her business do you think? You know I don't think it's a woman or a man. I think we're in a social media era now, you know, Facebook, Twitter. I'm talking about Twitter.

Oh, you're on Twitter. You know, people just like to criticise other people. Sometimes it's hard for them to see the good or try to understand. They're already attacking or firing at you before you've even opened your mouth. So I just think it's general in all walks of life, in every job. It's not just this job. It just happens to be a high profile job. There's always chatter around Strictly and there's always a degree of

controversy. There's a lot of froth surrounding it which people enjoy, of course. But there's been an interesting discussion about same-sex partnerships coming onto the programme, I think, next series. I mean, we can't, obviously, same-sex couples have been dancing together since humans have existed but will this be a big televisual first as far as you're well I think so I mean I danced with a little girl

partner all my life up until about 12 and then in our industry in Curtis and mine industry we have same-sex couples we have two women that dance together we have two men that dance together and for me when I look at it I just look at the movement to the music and I look at the expression of two bodies and what they're trying to portray I don't judge whether it's two men two women a man or a woman if you go on to stage for example men have been dancing together since the existence of time and so have women so what's so different about that in our industry so it would be a first I think it would be very welcoming and I for one of them look forward to seeing how that goes down just technically in terms of

choreography if we're used to seeing women dancing with men certain things are are possible merely because the men tend to be taller and stronger. So isn't there a difference then when you get, say, two women dancing together? No difference at all. Not in terms of what's technically possible? Not at all, because a heel is a heel and a toe is a toe. And also, I didn't have that tall man. I danced with two men that were five foot six.

So people come in all shapes and sizes and everybody can dance. And like I say, we have a guide and a technique book it's a guide not a gospel and it shares with you what kind of foot placements you have to make heels toes so it doesn't really make any difference at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and I should have been prepared for this but the Morris dancers have been in touch it's a great way to make fabulous friends, stay fit, have fun and keep your brain active. Learning the precision steps required for these dances. Curtis, could your future lie down the line in Morris dancing? Well, I mean, the future is an unwritten path, which nobody knows. So we'll just have to wait and see on behalf of that.

Dancing is my passion. I love it. All styles of dancing. There is many styles which I have not yet tried. I would love to try. There's the diplomatic service. Good wait for you as well, actually. This listener says, I teach movement and dance to staff working with the under sixes. Dance is a unifying experience. Music is

a language we all speak. To understand your body in the truest form and to express your feelings through movement balances you. And from Julia, I started balance again after a ballet again. I'm sorry. After 20 years of hating aerobics classes. And I got my grade eight earlier this year at the age of 41. Congratulations. Well done. That is that must have been really, really hard work.

Talking about strange paths that life leads you down. You met your new partner, Shirley Shirley at Jack and the Beanstalk I did now you you were playing mother nature well I got that role and I'd never done any actressing I this shows people out there that you really truly can do whatever you put your mind to by the way so Craig suggested I had this go at you know panto yeah acting singing the dancing part was easy. And so I decided to try it. Now, that was absolutely terrifying, the most terrifying thing I ever did in my whole life,

but I gave it a go. And yes, I met Danny Taylor there. He was playing Fleshcreep, the villain, while I was playing Mother Nature, the fairy, who narrated the show. Fleshcreep and Mother Nature. Yes, Fleshcreep and Mother Nature. So did you get together during the production

or at the after show party on the final night? No, he was coming out of a long term relationship he has an eight year old son and we became good friends first which is always a good thing when you get older that's a good thing and it was about March we got together and were kind of inseparable

he's just the most amazing person I ever met in my entire life I just want to say that. Sounds a keeper. Can he dance? He can move. He's on stage. He's in Blood Brothers, plays Sammy, puts on Macbeth and everything at the Epstein Theatre in Liverpool.

And that production just got taken to Singapore. Singer-songwriter. So, yes, he's got some rhythm. Can he ballroom dance? No. So, will we be learning from the beginning? Yes, we'll be going to the Starlight Ballroom with Ken and we will be learning the basic steps from the beginning

and I can't think of anything more fun. I could teach him, but I don't want to. So everybody out there can move and try. Go to the local dance studio. I'll be taking him. OK, well, I almost believe you. By the way, if you've not seen Blood Brothers, shame on you. Go and see it.

Oh, it's amazing. My favourite musical. Teresa, you're here not seen Blood Brothers, shame on you. Go and see it. Oh, it's amazing. My favourite musical. Teresa, you're here really to talk about the history of dance. Why? I mean, big question this, but why do people dance? It is a big question. But people are wired to dance. It's like we make music, we also dance.

And that's across the world. And there are different cultures, and they may have very different styles of dancing. And that's the wonderful thing is that dance comes in myriad forms, just like people do. And there's a dance form out there for you, whether it's hip hop or Morris dancing or catac or bachnatium. There's something out there for you. It also is a powerful tool because dancing's been banned. Indeed.

And we shouldn't forget it's been banned in England. Yes. In the Puritan period, of course, dancing was banned. All pleasurable things were banned. But, of course, it's bound up with the body and also with notions of gender as well so that the idea of people enjoying themselves together might lead to illicit activities.

So it's a way of controlling society. And we see it across the world today. Even today, yeah, the Taliban. Yes, the Taliban, absolutely. The Taliban dancing, yeah. I want to bring Jo Stilgo, our pianist, back in because Jo is now going to... We are going to ask, and it's a big ask, Sujata Vanagi to tell us a little bit about the history of Katak in about two minutes.

But if you can, Sujata. Okay, sure. Katak means a storyteller. Literally, the word means storyteller. So through the dance, you tell stories, but the stories are not necessarily always narrative based. It could be simple rhythms, movement of two little animals or two different people who has two different personalities. So like stories are also like little, little concepts also. So it started maybe about a thousand years back as storytelling art form, when the storytellers would tell the stories about gods and goddesses in the temple courtyard,

and other people would come and they would sometimes sing and dance and express, tell the stories. But then gradually they started traveling and different things. They realized they have to bring in the dance. Then the Mughals came and they were great patrons of the dance, like I finish and then somebody say, wow, wow, like great. You know, it's like, so those kind of moments came at that time. And they would be, they would have been rewarded straight away with, you know, money or jewels and stuff like that. And women and men danced together or were they involved in the same dances?

Initially, men danced. The storytellers were only men. Even my teacher, who is one of the legendary, from whose family the dance comes, in their family, women never danced. They all knew everything. Even he learned a great deal, he says, from his mother, but women didn't dance.

I don't know why. And so it sort of grew, but when it came to the Mughal court, then it was mainly the men, and then the women started coming, and that's how it kind of moved on. For people who genuinely still can't quite get it, I'm going to ask Jo,

you talk to Jo now and see if you can ask Jo to give a bit of rhythm, give us a taste of what we're talking about here. Okay, so if I... You're ready, Jo? I'm ready. This is my first ever attempt at Kathak on a piano on Women's Hour. Keep expectations low and I think we'll be right. It's only beat and rhythm. Everything is bound to the beat.

So if you give me just four. One, two, three, four. One. Any tune you can play. Three, four. One, two. Three. Four. Fantastic Thank you very much Fantastic And is that something you can learn at any age? Could it be something you can take up? And do you need to be fit?

No I'm trained as a sports scientist We always say fit for what? And do you need to be fit? No. I'm trained as a sports scientist. We always say, fit for what? If you were running a marathon, your fitness is for it. If you're doing kathaki, your fitness is for it. Yes. You don't need a split.

Speaking of which, Roger tweets to say, I'm 71. Why do I dance? For me, it keeps me young. It's like making love with clothes on. What a way of explaining it. He says, it's safe to connect and it helps him stay young. Roger, keep dancing. And this is great, actually, from Natalie.

I've got the rewarding job of teaching. Oh, it's just dipped down my screen. Hang on, that's live radio for you. You pay your licence fee for this. I'm going to go back. Natalie says, I have the rewarding job of teaching dance to people with Parkinson's

in Halifax. We all love the class as it connects us and it lifts our spirits. It's so important. Keep that... That sounds fantastic work, Natalie. Keep that up.

And it does make a massive difference. I've actually done it with dementia before. Yes, have you? And honestly, it's incredible. The transformation of the music and the steps. keep that up and it does make a massive difference I've actually done it with Dementia before and honestly it's incredible like the transformation of the music and the steps

like I did it with them and they were in where they were for a reason and once I started playing the music I dressed old fashioned I played 50s

and 60s music and when I say danced it was step to the side step to the side under the arm and it brought a lively atmosphere to the to the whole encounter they were eating better sleeping better they were singing they remembered all the words to the songs they picked up the dances like that it was incredible yeah

um ingrid i want you to do the same it's because jata set a high standard there but can you do the same with joe still go on the piano and just maybe talk him through a piece of music that you if you were because you teach essentially jazz how would you do the same with Joe Stilgo on the piano and just maybe talk him through a piece of music that you, if you were, because you teach essentially jazz. How would you describe the music, the dance you do teach? Yeah, my first love is jazz dance. Right. Now they call, I like to call it contemporary jazz now because I like to add a lot of contemporary movement, which is steeped in African contemporary dance, modern dance, ballet. And tap essentially brings the rhythm also from jazz dance initially.

So jazz would be my first love. So I'd love if Joe played something jazzy. Okay, count me in. A one, a two, a one, two, three, four. So I'll give you something for the dancers out there that are listening. Go on. That might be familiar with these steps. We're going to go a step, touch, here we go.

A step, touch, step, touch, a kickball change, a kickball change, a step, touch, a step, touch, a kickball change, a kickball change, a step, touch, touch, a pivot, turn, a pivot, turn, a pose. A five, six, seven, and a step, touch, a step, touch, a kickball change, and a da, da, da. That would be a jazz class. Yeah.

That's incredible. Thanks, Jeff. Woo. It's dancing now. I was watching you doing a jazz class on YouTube last night, actually. And frankly, you look as though you're enjoying it as much as they are.

Oh, totally. I have to tone it down. Really? Because I wear myself out. But I think that's the whole thing, though, about when you teach people you love dance, you have a passion for it it and the beauty of delivering and offering that passion to others is such a gift you know to be in your body to

have a skill that you've been working I've been working on this my whole entire life I started dancing when I was three and it's such a gift to be able to share that with others and bring joy out in their bodies and it's not we were talking earlier it's not necessarily about the coordination or the aesthetic of dance. I mean, that's a completely different conversation, I think. I think everyone, when you think of dance, we think of the world ballet, and we think of principal dancers up there in these incredible attitude, arabesque lines on point, hitting extreme, extreme positions. And actually, the essence of dance is in all of us. You just watch a baby move to music

and it's been there in our bodies, in our DNA from when we're born. And I think if we can always remember it and always keep it in our spirit, I think our world would be a better place. I was fortunate enough a couple of weeks ago to see a Matthew Bourne production

of Romeo and Juliet at Sadler's Wells, which, I mean, it's not cheap to go to things like that. I'm conscious of that. This was a production set in a mental institution. It was never made explicitly clear. I was completely transported.

One of the things that gave me encouragement, frankly, was that not all the bodies on stage looked stereotypically like ballet dancers. And I'm trying very hard not to be in any way offensive here or make a sweeping generalisation but people looked incredibly fit and clearly immensely able to dance

but they weren't off-puttingly dancer-like. Does any of that make any sense? It does and I think there's a lovely shift happening in our dance culture in which the dancers on stage are reflecting the diversity of people in real life and there's a real also push towards um health in dance as opposed to um looking a certain way and is that much needed by the way it's so much needed yeah so that

dancers have much more longevity now dancers are now dancing into their 40s 50s 60s and beyond um because of that push so it's great um I'm going to read some great stories that have come in. Beyond for me. Beyond. Keep going, girl. Keep going. Yes, do not give up. This is from Sylvia. I met my husband in 1973 at a ski club dance.

A ski club dance, sorry. Even though he was in crutches, he'd broken his Achilles tendon, he asked me to dance about, which I was thrilled about because I thought he must love dancing as I do. At the end of the evening, he told me that he challenged himself to dance as he wanted to

meet me but he didn't really like dancing at all. He has hardly ever asked me to dance since but we have been married now for 45 years. Liz is in Geneva but says please give a shout out to Scottish country dancing. It's great fun and keeps your brain

fit as well as your legs. There's a group in every major city in Europe and all over the world, and it's not just the Scots who do it. Teresa, you looked particularly enthusiastic about it. Yes, I mean, we have at the University of Roehampton, we have international students, and the Chinese students have gone to Scottish country dancing and have made really good friends there.

Going dancing is such a sociable activity. You meet new ways of moving, new ways of listening and new ways of relating to people. It's so important to try different forms of dance, I think. Do you notice people on the fringes of events like that who suddenly find themselves involved in a way they might not have expected? Does that happen? Do people's minds just switch when they realise that actually perhaps if they are like me and regard themselves as somewhat hopeless,

that something might just set them off and perhaps they can lose themselves in the music? Yes, and I think when you see people enjoying themselves you want to join in and be a part of it. You want to but I was trying to explain earlier that I don't think I've ever and I think this is generalisation again possibly, quite a British thing I can never totally

lose myself in it because I'm thinking self-consciously that everybody's looking at me they're not are they? No, and there's a long... Unfortunately. There is a reason why... Emotion and talking, darling.

That's okay. That's your inhibition. But there is a historical reason why you should feel like that. Because the British prided themselves, particularly in the 19th century, on containing all their emotions and the men especially that the idea that you mustn't make an exhibition of yourself and unless you were good at something you didn't put yourself out there on the dance floor because men hated being ridiculed you

see so that sort of seeped in from the upper classes into the grammar schools, and it's been quite pervasive. And it's affected women as well, I have to say, this idea that you contain yourself, you don't make an exhibition of yourself. I have to say that that is a generational thing. Oh, sorry, Jane. Because it's all changing now. I know. From the same.

So it's changing now because I think, especially with the introduction of a lot of African source dancing, where we see some superb dancers, and when it's tied to popular music as well, I think there's a big shift now about men dancing and the shame that used to be attached to you know certainly my father's generation and indeed my own generation the fear of dancing and being made to look stupid yeah oh heaven forbid um natalie says i've got an all-female kaylee band called the beau dillies

the fun the laughter and the connection people share it a kaylee is unbeatable um and joe says i met my husband at salsa lessons. Two years later, we got married. 13 years on, we've got a nine-year-old and a seven-year-old. When I was pregnant with my first child, when I used to walk up to the steps to the salsa lessons, she used to start kicking in time to the beats in the music. I remember actually my oldest daughter reacted violently

and with extreme pleasure to Mamma Mia long before she was actually born. But I went to the stage show and she went berserk with what I think was genuine enjoyment. The whole business of what was the line that Ginger Rogers said? She did everything that Fred Astaire did. Backwards in heels. Backwards in heels. Yeah.

Now that is that still the case that more is required of the female partner in a dance? Well, competitive dancers, for sure, wear the high heels, three inch, three and a half inches sometimes. And you do have to adjust your balance. And it's harder than dancing in a flat shoe. I mean, take that over to you, Curtis. What's your feeling? No, that is very true.

I do agree with that. And I've actually done a show called Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. So I've danced in six inch heels before and danced in flat shoes they didn't know that yeah and uh it makes a massive difference you're telling me so i do have a lot of respect for the women dancers because they do have to mold their body and shape and and they have to have extreme strength and conditioning throughout the whole body to maintain that position for a long period to Now, to interrupt you there, but if you go to the ladies on Strictly, for example, most of those ladies have never, ever worn a heel that high and had to move in a short space of time.

But it's a colossal undertaking. Oh, blisters on their feet, sore feet, it throws your weight in a different position, you get backache, all sorts of pains until you get used to these shoes. It's quite interesting, really, isn't it, the ladies' Latin shoe? I'm trying to think back over the years as strictly um and who's won whether they've been females or males

i actually can't remember what they when you've had both males oh yeah yeah but i just wonder who because genuinely when you think about it it is a bigger ask of the female celebrities there is no doubt about it well i think the men have a little hard work here and there but they're just guiding and leading you know but ladies they have to twist turn spin jump all sorts of things in these heels so i'd say it's a little bit more difficult for the women i don't know how you feel curtis around a table of women i'm going to agree no no no i do i do think different roles different roles the men's role is also difficult yeah because the men

we do have to and for somebody that's never danced before we do have to lead the woman and supposedly try and keep that frame and we have to support the woman

I always got told a man's job is to make the woman look good whilst dancing that's our job a little bit too to show the lady off

and she can do all of the intricate movements and all of the like you said spins the lifts get thrown around the back bends and the can do all of the intricate movements and all of the, like you said, spins, the lifts, get thrown around, the backbends

and the men can stand there a little bit more. So I am going to agree with you and it is a little bit hard for the women. Don't do too much standing around on Strictly Men,

that's all I'm saying. Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that with a pinch of salt. Just a quick word from Sujata on Katak. Flat shoes? Is it flat shoes

for everybody? Bare feet. Bare feet. Most natural. Right, okay. This is, you know, like the rhythm Flat shoes? Is it flat shoes for everybody? Bare feet. Bare feet. Most natural. Right. This is like the rhythm I was chanting out. All the sounds has to come out through your feet, the stamping of the feet. Sometimes the whole sole of the foot or the side or the heels

or a combination tapping in the heel and the side and how you hear the sound and how you interpret it through using the feet and how you're controlling it it's so it's bare feet and very technical feet and really very aware of each part of the foot like if I place my toe in this way what sound because we also wear ankle bells like several yeah several ankle bells right um but the idea of doing it in heels would be it's unthinkable no no no no it's okay you know it's an interesting statistic in our industry there's been many many ladies from way back when that have all had knee surgeries and i wonder whether that's to do with the fact that it started some people way back with lorraine andaird, used to be four-inch heels.

Then it went to three-inch heels, three-and-a-half-inch heels. Just wonder whether that had something to do with the fact that your knees, in your industry, do people have bad knees when they get older? Yes, I think the bad knees everybody has is badly designed knees anyway. But the knees, that impact is there but because um the the natural stance and then if you're bare feet and you're stamping it's slightly less stress on the knee but i can imagine if you're going up on your toes yes and it's the body weight shifted more to the front so the knee has the full pressure of the of the weight and um so definitely the it would the knee um the heels would have i

would say something to do with the knee pain and unless the the big cooling down happening or uh properly conditioned particularly for that kind of work so curtis um you are about to get the opportunity of a lifetime oh i, I'm very interested right now. I've had a lot of them recently, actually. I want you to attempt to teach me to do a couple of extremely simple dance steps. Absolutely. All health and safety has been taken care of here. We've got a sensible surface.

I'm not in the most sensible of shoes, but they're not my highest either. And I'm going to hand over to everybody else while I slip over with you to the mat. We're going to do a basic cha-cha. Oh, it just couldn't be any more basic. It's got to be the most basic cha-cha-cha. It will be very basic, so don't you worry at all. Alright, let's go over there. Shirley, I would like you to slip into commentator

mode if that's alright, but anybody else can also interject with their own words of wisdom. Okay. Well, interject with their own words of wisdom. Okay. Right. Well, I'll give you words of wisdom now. Make sure you enjoy it with that young man. Every second of it, darling. The hope's coming off now.

How tall are you, Curtis? His jacket's going off now. Six foot three. Six foot three. He's almost touching his head on the ceiling. There we go. Right. Four basics, four New Yorks.

Four basics and four New Yorks is about what he's going to dance. I'm going to show the lady steps and then I will dance with you. So what we are going to start with is moving backwards on the right leg. Me? Yes. So Curtis is showing this young lady how to transfer her weight. He's doing it very well. Right leg comes in.

We just take the step backwards. Take a step back on his right foot. Dropping the heel down. Now we replace the weight forward. Now he's going to replace the weight all the step back on his right foot dropping the heel down and now we replace the weight all the way forward onto his left foot bringing our right foot together now we're going to go side close side to the right just basically now side step to the right on his right foot so if we just go backwards on your right now so back replace weight forward a little go now. Back, replace the weight forward. A little go. And now we're just going to go side, close side. So right leg to the side.

Side, together, side. And she just completed that beautifully. And now you're going to take this leg forwards. She's going to go forward now on her left. And then back on her right. And three small steps to the side to complete the cha-cha-cha. I honestly think I'm a long way from perfection here. No, darling, you're not.

Give it a go, darling, give it a go. So in hold. So I'm going to place my hand here on you. So he's just got this lovely hold, left to right hand hold. So the man's left arm, lady's right hand. He's put his right arm around her body. Yes, count me in, Curtis. And she's placed her left arm beautifully on his shoulder.

They want some music now. Maybe not music just yet. Okay, one go without music. They're going to have one go without music here. So she looks a little nervous. The head is a little bit tilted there. She needs to get that posture a little bit. Side, close, side, forward.

Oh, but she completed the step. Never use the same foot twice, darling. Of course. One more time. It's a wisdom. So think of dancing as like walking. It literally is. Left, right, left, right, left. Always change weight right to the left and here we go darling quite passionate in that embrace I think Banish is actually playing a part here

one two cha-cha one two and three and cha-cha one forward step cha-cha one and two and three and cha-cha we've got some body parts that are moving that I'm not familiar with. It's not far off at all. She had to go, we're going to give her a round of applause for that.

Thank you. I think her favourite part was being in his arms. There you go. You're right now, Shirley. How do you get up her arms like that? So if we just had about five more minutes, she would have had that perfectly, I promise you. I think that's five more years.

Let's have an appreciation now for those people on Strictly that only have about three or four days to get a whole dance or two dances together to put out to the general public, a 15 million audience every Saturday evening. Glitz, glamour, choreography. The lot. The lot.

Dancers are athletes. And do you watch as you watch them change their attitude but their bodies change as well don't they Well some of them start out exactly how you started this morning Absolutely I've seen it They start out like that

and by day two like you said that's just in a few seconds you have a few more minutes and then you have six hours in a day or twelve hours or however long you rehearse. By the end of the week, you'll be surprised what the body can do. You really can't. It's just moulding their muscles. I'm actually quite tired after doing that.

I'm putting a name forward for Strictly. No, absolutely no. There is a limit to what I could endure. Do you, I don't know, do you think Ingrid, that programmes like Strictly have actually changed the nation's attitude to dance? I think definitely. It has, yeah.

Yeah, definitely, for the positive. I think it helps dispel the myth, you know. I think we see people start from the beginning, like as you were just now, who possibly have had no experience. And then we see the growth and development. And we see that actually with a little bit of hard work, with the right guidance and the right teacher and the right inspiration and positive environment you can be moving and dancing and living your best life yeah you know on stage okay yeah being too nervous you know plucking up that courage to get out there and think okay let me try this no i mean i i know annika rice i've interviewed annika rice and she is't it? I mean, and she's every reason to be nervous, isn't she?

But what a fantastic challenge. And I know particularly a lot of women around that age, as I am, will be rooting for her because we want to see someone who can, who's going on that dancing journey. God, I'm sounding like I am on Strictly. I need to be on Strictly. But the shoe, you've totally put me off with the three and a half inch heels. There is just

no we can always put you in flats darling where there's a will there's a way we can move around it yeah okay thank you you are very reassuring curtis did you actually you started dancing when you're on the world was that right i did i was seven seven years old for ballroom and latin but two when i did ballet and tap right because my mother said i just didn't stand still the music could go on and so she thought what shall I put her in so she put me in ballet and tap yeah like you said from a very small age when the baby comes out the womb you put music on it's moving all its limbs and you know it's there it is there yeah and what about you Sujata do you remember the do you consciously remember the first time you danced or even heard music that made you want to dance? I don't think I was a baby like this was ready to dance right from the beginning. I was more

active and climbing trees and stuff like that. I grew up in India. We lived in a very beautiful place where there are lots of trees. And I found that very interesting, finding a way of climbing to the top branch and so on. But my mother thought for the similar reason that she has a way of climbing to the top branch and so on. But my mother thought, for the similar reason, that she has a lot of energy and she's very brave, she thought, and put her in dancing. So she did. So I was like about six years old when I started dancing. And Curtis, I know that your family is absolutely steeped in ballroom, isn't it?

Your dad, he was a judge, was he? My dad was an ex-champion in his time. And then he went on to judging and then had kids, me and AJ. And we were always around the dancing. So we were always involved in it and loved to watch. I mean, we spent his money in the arcades at Blackpool when we were about four. It wasn't so much watching the dancing. But we were around the environment.

And then we decided to give it a go and just fell in love with it, really. So there was never any pressure on you not to dance. But let's be honest, a lot of lads grow up in households where an interesting dance would be, completely wrongly, by the way, but would be frowned upon. Originally, Dad didn't want us to dance, actually, because he knew that it would sort of ruin his career a little bit.

Because he can't judge when you're dancing. Yes. So therefore, it puts him out of work. Oh it has to be fair pretty much point but they put all of their money into me and AJ but yeah I understand there's a lot of places and households and schools which don't really focus on dancing and I think dancing well for me I can only speak for myself dancing taught me so much respect it taught me how to treat not just a woman, how to treat people in general. I had to take on a lot of skills and a lot of time out of school, a lot of time out of the public life and stuff. And I had to focus and dedicate myself and I had to really want what I

wanted. And it taught me a lot of respect on how to lead a lady into the room and that can be the same as leading a man into the room but it's all about respecting your partner, leading your partner showing her or him in the direction so it teaches you that aspect of respect and equality. I mean equally there is no way that you you've got to be super fit, you can't do this

half-heartedly. You build that you build it, it's a built thing yes yeah So Jarta Gordon what were you going to say? No I'm just saying do this half-heartedly. You build that. It's a built thing. So Jyota, go on, what were you going to say? I'm just saying that over the time, it happens, you get fit for whatever you are doing and you realise that if you had a long holiday or whatever, you're a little out of breath in something

you realise, oh my god, I have to start doing something about it. But that's your work, so that this is your work, doesn't matter where you go. Like you want to deliver what you are, how you are used to. Yeah. Okay. And deliver is the word, isn't it? Deliver. Yeah. And then also you set your own expectation and say, this is how I do it.

And then I have to be fit enough to be able to do that. If I'm not, then, I mean, if something to be able to do that if I'm not then I mean if something happens that's beyond my control that's a that's a different thing otherwise it's like I have to like either I do it the way I like it of course I'd like to yeah yeah I have to get very fit after the summer yes well we all feel a bit like that. Teresa, quick word from you. But let's not forget the recreational dancer. Yes, sure. The once a week, just going and enjoying, or the you know, dancing at a

wedding or a birthday party. You're still a dancer. Or just being me in the kitchen with my 70s disco classic playlist. We are all dancers. A glass of cava down, then I'll be there. A bit of ABBA. Yvonne Elliman is my go-to.

If I can't have you... Oh. You must know. Everybody must know that. Yes, indeed. Saturday Night Fever. Thank you. That's it.

OK. Everyone can do it. Perhaps, actually, we'll go out on that. Can you play that, please, Jo? Oh, why don't you... Sorry. Yvonne Elliman. If I can't have you, then we'll all have a dance.

Yay! Can we do a little hustle? I've been doing that with my actors at the RSC. Okay, the hustle. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, just that. Just a little... Yeah, that's great. Okay, Joe. I don't want no money baby, give up you all alone Apparently I've got to dance, here we go. Right. And look here, we've got more low end, a little bit of a disco, then a little bit of a new kitchen, and then a little side tap, side tap. Clap your hands. And then a twirl, got a little bit of break dancing going on from the very gorgeous Curtis,

very talented young man there. Oh, we've got a bit of a gallop going on there, yeah, love that. Papers flying all over the place. Transported, Jane. Oh, dear, that was like my next hen night, that was. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jo. Thank you all for being absolutely brilliant this morning.

Really appreciate it. Tomorrow, Andrea Catherwood is here. She'll talk to the documentary filmmaker Franny Armstrong, who's dedicated her life to bringing climate issues to the big screen. And she's made it to this year's Woman's Hour Power List Our Planet. We'll also look at employment for women with disabilities. That's Woman's Hour with Andrea tomorrow morning, just after 10. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.