Woman's Hour - Dawn French, Claire Findlay, Second Chances, Caroline Slocock

Episode Date: April 28, 2021

Emma Barnett talks to Dawn French about her fourth novel "Because of You" which has been longlisted for the Women's Prize for Fiction and we'll find out later today if it's made the shortlist. She'll also be talking about the post-menopausal years when women often say they feel invisible, afraid of change, unemployable or just plain 'past it'. If you're an Archers listener you'll be familiar with Alice's story of having a baby as an alcoholic and the stigma and struggle she faces. Our reporter Milly Chowles had a baby last year. She’s in long -term recovery from addiction and feels she was given lots of chances to change. Her fear is that women now aren’t getting those opportunities and the impact on them, their children and society is devastating. In 2011 there were 65,520 children in care in England and at the end of March 2020 that figure was more than 80,000. Addiction is often a factor. Today, we hear a Dad's story. It's nearly 30 years since the start of the Bosnia-Hercevgovina war, a conflict that saw the worst atrocities in Europe since World War II. About 100,000 were killed and over 2 million were displaced between 1992 and 1995.Watching the coverage on the news, thousands of miles away in Fochabars in North East Scotland was Clare Findlay and her husband Andrew who ended up taking in 21 Bosnian children and four mothers into their home. Her story features in a new series ‘Saved by A Stranger which tells the story of people caught up in some of the biggest events in history. And Caroline Slocock the Director of Civil Exchange and the first woman Private Secretary at No 10 serving Margaret Thatcher talks about the current "curtaingate" row at Westminster.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Engineer: Donald MacDonald.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Earlier this month, some of you were very aggrieved when we talked about the feeling that certain women have of being invisible and irrelevant when they reach middle age and beyond. I always welcome your views. The stronger, the better, I say.

Ali was especially annoyed, writing in to say, I do wish women would stop perpetuating the myth that at a certain age, women become invisible. It's all a question of attitude. I expect Woman's Hour to challenge the notion that invisibility is our lot in life. How dare you? Woman's Hour, you should be ashamed.

Well, we do challenge it pretty regularly, but we do also have to represent those who feel that way because, you know, just because we want something to be the case, that doesn't always mean it is. And yet for increasing numbers of women, it seems Life Beyond 50 is proving very successful and fulfilling. An act of reinvention, as one of you have already called it on our messages today. Our first guest, Dawn French, can certainly relate to that,

having started a whole new career as an author in her 50s and has just been long-listed to the Women's Prize. We'll be talking to her shortly, but women now are likely to live longer not having periods than having them. Take that in. Quite mind-blowing. How do you feel that this age, if you've reached it, is treating you? If you aren't there yet, are you looking forward to it or are you dreading it? How have the adverts been in your life with the women around you?

Is it freeing? Do you feel you can now do anything, which includes, I should add, doing nothing, taking your foot off the pedal? Or are you putting it to the floor? Tell us. 84844 is the number you need to text to check for those charges. On social media, at BBC Women's Hour, or email us your views, your experiences through our website. Already many come in. I'll come to them shortly. Also on today's programme, Boris Johnson's flat. You may not give a fig, but is this just another example of what happens when men do not pay close enough attention

to their domestic life? Margaret Thatcher's former private secretary, Caroline Slowcock, joins us to talk about the so-called cash for curtains rouse, which shows no sign of dying down, especially ahead of the Prime Minister's questions session this afternoon. And the incredible story of how a woman from Scotland ended up housing 21 children and four mothers fleeing the Bosnian war. But today, if you are a woman, you are likely to live into your 80s. 100 years ago, you were lucky if you saw 60. This really means now that 50 is the new 30. But what to do with those extra couple of decades

when you're past the child-rearing if you did that and many may expect you to put your feet up, start a completely new job, perhaps? One woman who does know all about reinvention and still being relevant at any age, Dawn French. Dawn, best known for her comedy and acting, now an author who, as I say, been long listed for the Women's Prize for her book Because of You and joins us now. Good morning, Dawn. Good morning, Emma. How are you?

Well, I'm very well. All the better for talking to you. And I know a little bit of a nerve wracking day for you because you're waiting to see if you make the short list. But congratulations for making the long list in your second career, if I can call it that. Yes, I suppose it is my second career. That's true. Although I suppose I think that having a skill in one area doesn't preclude you necessarily from having a skill in another area. And in fact, in my first career, I think that I did a lot of writing. So it's only natural that I would have gone on to write a bit more. And as soon as I found out how much I loved writing, which I discovered when I wrote an autobiography back in 2008,

I thought, oh, actually, I really love this. So I thought I was quite a collaborative person. I've always worked with other people. And when I sat down to write on my own, I really enjoyed the control of it. So writing for me has been a fantastic liberation. Was it nerve wracking anyway, though, to start as a novelist in your 50s? You know, I didn't even think of it as that. And I think if you give yourselves the kind of hurdles of worrying about how you might be perceived

or what this job is and are you up to it, I try to make myself not available to that kind of fug of surrender to your own insecurity, if you like. So if I thought, oh, can I be a novelist? No, novelists are people like Jane Austen and Henry James, and I'm not as good as that. And if I constantly measured myself by comparison to others, I wouldn't do anything in life.

So what I thought was, oh, I'd like to write something. Let's see if I can. And the only way to get experience with writing is to write. And no doubt you get a little bit better each time. And I think this fantastic honour of being long listed for the Women's Prize is a little bit of proof to me that perhaps if you continue and you don't give up, perhaps you do get a little bit better each time. Keep on keeping on. But how did you feel about approaching your 50s and beyond? You're in your 60s now. Had you been looking forward to it? Had you been dreading it? What did the adverts in your life be like? Well, of course, when I was a child, I remember thinking that people who were 40 just might as well die.

Because what was the point of them? You know, when you're a child, you think somebody who's 40 and above is just ancient and pointless. And of course, as you grow into your 40s, you're just starting to get to know yourself. And now that I'm 63 now and I feel grateful to be 63 I have many friends who didn't make it into their 60s so I'm very glad to be here and to be um you know alive and kicking and doing everything I want to do and getting to know myself more I spent a lot of my life up till now sort of people pleasing and trying to work out what's required of me by others. And I'm settling into my skin now and I'm in my stride and I kind of take some ownership,

I guess, of the person I genuinely am. So I'm OK with that. We are getting so many messages just to give you a flavour. As an older woman, I find that it matters less the older you get. I did the London Marathon in 2017. My granddaughter keeps me up to date with technology. I'm currently learning chess. What age gap, says Barbara. Another one here. I'm 50.

I'm loving that sense of feeling, being more at peace with myself, what you're talking about, Dawn. What I love, what I don't love. I do not feel the need to justify myself or my opinions or decisions. It's true that my body is playing up a bit, but I'm even more accepting of all my bits. I look in the mirror and I smile. When I was younger, I avoided looking in the mirror. Sad, but true. You're nodding along with that, I can see on Zoom.

It's all about acceptance, I think, including I'm accepting my rather annoying arthritic knee. Even that I'm accepting. You're welcoming. Yes. Well, I sort sort of I understand the limitations and weirdly like any boundaries once you understand them you have the freedom inside it if you like you know you I'm not going to run a marathon I know that I'm not going to win strictly I know that which is why I'm not going on strictly because I can't win it. But I know that there are many other things I can do. And I can enjoy, for instance, the fact that I am working out finally,

that I'm a kind of functioning introvert, that I really enjoy being quiet. I can do all the other stuff. I can be loud and I can do the jazz hands and have some fun. I love all that too. But I mainly love being quiet. And so I take ownership of that now. It's interesting to say that. And I think, you know, again, that goes with the theme of honesty and feeling good in yourself and knowing what you want to do. We are getting some messages though, for instance, Karen says being invisible

is really difficult to take. And another anonymous message, I think you are invisible as you get older. It's not about being worried about being viewed as attractive, like gorgeous youngsters all around us. It's literally about being viewed as irrelevant or less than. It's about being barged into on the pavement or overlooked for opportunities of promotion at work. It's the association of age with slowing, lessening, losing value and worth, becoming invisible is the right

word. So, you know, I live, I've got Ali's words ringing in my ear, one of our listeners I read at the beginning there, but there are some women who do feel that. Yeah, there definitely are. And we definitely live in a society that could decide that you are invisible and tries to make you such but you know we like I say we can drown in that sea um uh or we can be the red dots in the blue sea you know we we need to make sure that we are noticeable and it doesn't have to do with being attractive it has to do with offering your skills in an interesting way and maybe trying to rethink how the focus can be pulled to the things that you do the best. I think that's what it's about.

And certainly that's what we should strive for. Well, also others making the point invisibility in that sense of the opposite sex certainly can be very liberating as well, which is not even having to think about that side of things. Also people's relationships and how they change. A message here saying good for Dawn French at 56. My foot is firmly on the pedal. Last year I left my husband after 20 years because the marriage was stale. My self-employed business is continuing to flourish. I do get annoyed by the media showing

capital letters, middle-aged women as in constant cougars. When for me, this is simply not the case. I've lost a lot of weight, I'm on HRT, and I'm blessed with good health and starting a new relationship is going to take some time, but she's feeling liberated by having a different relationship perhaps on the horizon. Yeah, well, you know, listen, I'm an example of there's always another chapter. There's always another chapter. And I'm prepared to write new chapters, you know, when I get to 100, and I'm prepared to write new chapters you know when I get to 100 if I'm lucky enough to live that long well we have got a lot of suggestions also coming in about what this period of life should be called uh do you have one I mean some saying third act some saying I don't

necessarily need a name for this have you ever thought about that Dawn French gosh I haven't um yeah maybe we should think about what it is. I've always been confused about what middle age is. Does it mean you're in the middle of your life? And that's sort of pre-deciding how long you're going to live. Yes, it is, isn't it? And then when does it finish? When does middle age finish?

You know, I don't really know. I just call it juicy. Juicy. We're in a juicy age. Yeah. Yeah. It's just thinking about your previous career. It's been a very, very hard time for the arts in the last 12 months and now counting. I know that you were part of a silent protest when the theatres went dark, as it were. I mean, what is your view on on the kind of resurgence and how are you feeling about that side of things? I'm sure you talk to plenty of your friends who've been affected well I went through a genuine grief

about what happened in the arts I mean filming did open up your tv opened up but we're not there with theatre yet we will be and we've got to be sensible about it but but it is possible now to test within five minutes you know and if if tests can be offered alongside your ticket for you to go and see anything in a group in a theatre you would be able to sit uh shoulder to shoulder with somebody and know for those 24 hours that all of you are clear of corona and you know there's got to be there's got to be light at the end of the tunnel there is i mean plays are being um produced um and they're in development and they are in rehearsal so we will be opening up again soon and thank god i didn't i i have been a bit surprised by how dismissed the arts have been by this

government i've been shocked and saddened by that i mean you know of course we all had to stand back at the beginning so frontline workers could get on, we all had to stand back at the beginning. So frontline workers could get on with what they had to do. But to regard the arts as something frothy or a diversion or a luxury, I don't think that's the case. Not with the amount of money the arts bring in and not with the amount of jobs. I mean, of course, some of those funds have been made available. There was a big package, which, you, which theatre producers have been very grateful for and have got.

But I suppose, are you talking about the fact that it perhaps came later than other support packages? Yes, it came later. And I watched, especially younger colleagues of mine, really lose hope and leave.

So we have lost a whole swathe of people to other careers. Because if you look at dancers, singers, these are people who have to keep going you you don't suddenly return to dance a year later if you haven't been able to flex those muscles in the meantime um just to say a couple of suggestions have come in around that just wanted to get to your attention shanae says maybe we should call uh this act that we're talking about

of life later on the resurrection and we've. And we've got another one here. Do not want it to be called middle-aged. And another one, late adolescence is a suggestion from Sally, which I'm sure you'd like. With the sound of your laughter, I do just have to ask you before our time is up together. Earlier this week, Dawn French, Brian Tolver, the chairman of Handforth Parish Council,

whose Zoom meeting went viral after it descended into chaos. He's resigned. He's the one that told the standing clerk, Jackie Weaver, she had no authority here. We know Jackie's a regular listener to Woman's Hour. How are you feeling about him standing down, Dawn? It's correct. It's the right thing, Emma. Are you speaking as the vicar of Dibley now? Well, you know, I did think, you know, parish councils, there's nothing more true. It's as if the vicar of Dibley was a documentary, for God's sake. And you have no authority here, Emma Barnett. No authority.

I've never thought I have, but, you know, it's good to have it confirmed by you, Dawn Fretch. Thank you very much for talking to us in your late adolescence or the resurrection, as we're calling it. There we go. Dawn French, waiting to find out. She'll make the shortlist for the Women's Prize and we'll, of course, let you know about that. Keep your messages coming in. They're cheering us and somebody else said Dawn French on Women's Day this morning is giving me life. That message coming in very, very clearly. 84844 to join in.

Now cash for curtains, says the Mirror. I can't afford it. Boris's cry to aid, says the Mail. And the PM urged to come clean about cash for number 10 revamp is how the Guardian has it. Boris Johnson across the front pages of the newspapers again this morning facing growing criticism over allegations that he was loaned £58,000 from Conservative Party funds while being seen to personally foot the bill for the renovations of his Downing Street residence, said to include gold wallpaper. Reports have alleged that the refurbishment was initially paid for by a donation from the Tory peer and donor Lord Brownlow to Conservative campaign headquarters, which then loaned the money to Boris Johnson. Number 10 has insisted that Conservative party funds are not being used to pay for the Downing Street flat. Is this just another example of what happens when men do not pay close enough attention to their domestic life? Would this have happened to a female Prime Minister? Will this? I'm joined

by someone who should know or certainly have a view. Caroline Slocock, Director of Civil Exchange, was the first female private secretary at Number 10 and private secretary to Margaret Thatcher and John Major. Good morning, Caroline. Morning. What is your views on this story, which doesn't seem like it's dying down? Well, I think it's incredibly important that prime ministers and indeed any ministers are not in a situation where they may be seen to be being bought in inverted commas by donations, which gives them some kind of private gain. And that's one of the reasons why the, well, it is the reason why the number 10 flat is maintained at public expense so that you don't get into that issue. Checkers is a trust, but it's not a trust in which people put donations. So I think it does matter. And I think the appearance of things matters as well.

And I've just been looking back, actually, at the archives, as it were, of Margaret Thatcher. And in 2011, the papers were released about the refurbishment of the flat in 1979 when she became prime minister and um she was shocked uh by how much money was spent from the public purse um to give her uh the flat that she deserved there was six 464 was spent on linen and 209 pounds on crockery and she she you know was exasperated she thought this was way too much she said we don't need all that linen uh we're only using one bedroom and i'll pay for my own my own ironing board and you know it's just a kind of different time isn't it you know it's such a sort of different attitude you know i think she was worried um you know she was worried about being frugal she thought it was important to be frugal but she was also worried about the

appearance of things and i think boris should be worried about spending just so much money, even if some of it is eventually coming out of his own purse, on temporary accommodation. I mean, I think, you know, prime ministers, you know, they have checkers. They also have the whole of number 10. One of the things that Margaret Thatcher did was she refurbished the public rooms of Number 10, the state rooms where she entertains heads of state and so forth. But she was also able to use those rooms herself for receptions, for parties and so forth. So they're not short of grand accommodation, Prime Ministers.

I suppose I was trying to imagine if somebody in her role would have ever done this. She was, of course, a particular character at a particular time. But when I asked at the beginning of the programme, we've already had some responses, you know, is this just another example of what happens when men do not pay close enough attention to their domestic life? You know, in terms of what Boris Johnson has done here, and as I say, Number 10 insisting that Conservative Party funds are not being used to pay for the Downing Street flat. Questions are going to continue to the prime minister direct today at the dispatch box.

Do you think this is one of those examples? Because, you know, Margaret Thatcher, was it the case that Dennis Thatcher was doing all of this in the background, sorting it all out? No, I mean, I think she had her eye on every ball, including, you know, what went in the fridge for the supper at the end of the day. She was the ultimate multitasker. And so, you know, the fact that she actually challenged some of the very small figures that were spent on the flat shows that she had an eye for that detail. You know, there may be a gender issue here, but I think there is also an issue of propriety. And Margaret Thatcher is a deeply controversial figure. And a lot of people will say a lot of negative things about her,

and probably rightly so. But one of the things that they would never challenge, I think, is her probity and her integrity. And I do think there has been a decline in standards, including amongst some prime ministers and ex-prime ministers, over the three decades that have passed. Do you think the public care, though? I mean, there's been a case made, for instance, by Charles Walker, a Conservative MP, talking to Newsnight the other evening saying, well, if it's not coming out of the taxpayers' purse, which this isn't, I mean, this has gone beyond the 30,000 that the Prime Ministers are

given to furnish their residents, perhaps the public won't care. The public are concerned, as it keeps being the line coming out of Cabinet, about coronavirus and how the government's handling that. I think the public are paying attention. Certainly, if you look at some of the tabloid newspapers, they are clearly paying attention and uh in my view rightly so because you know this is you know this is important to who is bankrolling the prime minister is a very important thing but i think there's also another angle here which others will recognize you know the kitchen that margaret thatcher had was pretty much the same kitchen that i had as a child in my very frugal upbringing. Those sort of white laminate, very cheap sort of fittings.

And, you know, she liked to be photographed in that kitchen because it showed that she had a common touch. And I think what's happened over, you know, over the decades is the sort of captains of industry and some of the senior figures have got better and better paid. And that kind of chasm between how we live and how the rest of them live is very great and you know I can't imagine spending £30,000 per annum furnishing my house. I also think a John Lewis kitchen or John Lewis furnishings are one rather lovely things to have and I think a lot of people feel that those are quite aspirational so I think the kind of story of you know spending a lot of money on very temporary furnishings for the number 11 flat will cut through I think on many different levels yes and I suppose what you're saying there as well is it's for the prime minister to perhaps have a handle on that detail because of you know

how it looks and how it chimes with people especially coming out of a pandemic with the year that they've had but but also that's the sort of detail he should be across as also as perhaps as a modern man yeah i think so and it all tells a story doesn't it and it's not just the flat it's the what is it two and a half million spent on the number 10 briefing room which isn't now going to be used for daily briefings. You know, I mean, he should have an eye and he should have had an eye on those public sector contracts, many of which the National Audit Office have said were a waste of money. But also he should have an eye of what's going on in his domestic sphere

because how people live speaks to the sort of person that they are. And isn't the woman's job in this instance as the other half, perhaps? I think the prime minister, you know, needs to, yeah, I don't think it's, it's definitely not a woman's job. It shouldn't just be left to the, you know, to the little woman at home, especially when you're prime minister. You know, most modern couples take intense interest together on how they furnish

their their flat or their house caroline slowcock thank you for talking to us director of civil exchange the first female private secretary before that at number 10 and was private secretary to margaret thatcher and john major now the third installment in our series second chances the reporter millie charles had a baby last year She's in long-term recovery from addiction and feels she was given lots of second chances. Her fear is that now women in similar situations are not getting those opportunities and the impact on them, their children and society as a whole is devastating. Ten years ago there were 65,520 children in care in England. You'd hope that number would be going down but at the end of March last year, it was more than 80,000. Addiction is often a factor.

Today, a dad's story. An actor has voiced his words. You'll hear from Millie Chow's first. A listener wrote into Woman's Hour a few months ago in response to an item about mothers with drug problems having children removed from their care. Her question was, what about the children? What's this doing to them? She told us about her son who had to go to court to get custody of her granddaughter and she was angry. We contacted her son and when we

spoke, I asked him how he ended up having custody. How were things with the mother, his ex-partner? I had a good relationship with the mother and we spoke about things a lot and I was always led to believe that she had mental health issues and then after about well I suppose about a year prior to me sort of stepping in and stuff things started to go downhill again there were issues around her hygiene and stuff and my daughter wasn't being bathed and things and the school were raising lots of issues they called the police a few times concerned about the health of the mother when she arrived to pick the daughter up um there were numerous complaints being put in by the neighbors and stuff

and then and then my daughter started coming to me that she was scared to go home that she didn't want to be there that her mother was locking herself away in a room and there were lots of people coming in and out the house. And her mum was erratic. She would shout at her constantly and my daughter wouldn't know what was going on and things. So prior to me going around and informing the mother that I would be going to court to try to safeguard my daughter, I'd obviously been going around and talking to the mother and and I was trying to say to her look just just let me look after my daughter you know you can see her whenever you want so I mean for years I've been trying to do it in a dignified way but then yeah with all of these concerns I just said I said no I'm gonna have to go through the courts and then

yeah basically I went through the courts and the courts basically said that my daughters live with me now. So what was actually going on with your daughter's mother? Well it became apparent that she'd been using heroin and it got to the extent where she was locking her bedroom door and mainlining and this had been going on for basically the five years prior where she'd been saying heroin wasn't involved and yeah it was it was just a much bigger issue than anyone ever expected really. And how did you feel during that time I can imagine it just must have been really terrifying and heart-wrenching. It was yeah I mean I felt guilty and I felt scared, I felt lonely and slightly paranoid as well about what people would think and that, you know,

and you're constantly questioning yourself, you know, did I do that right and should I have done that? And it's just, yeah, it's just really hard, yeah. When you were going through the court process, do you feel like it was fair to you and to your daughter's mum? I felt the court did its job well, but where I felt unsupported and failed was around social services. How so? There'd been a backlog of years and years of concerns and reports put in around my daughter from the schools and from neighbours and all of that.

And social services have basically done nothing. And for years and years and years, because social services had fobbed me off, saying there was nothing I could do, I felt like there was nothing I could do. But part of me thinks that I might have stepped up a couple of years before it got really bad. But because of the way social services was coming across I thought I was powerless. You must have felt powerless I can imagine that feeling of seeing that something's really not right and seeing that your daughter's in distress you know I'm a new mum myself and you know I obviously know that lurch of the heart that you get when a child's not okay. Yeah, I felt massively powerless.

And I remember one day I turned up there, I think it was my daughter's Christmas concert in school, and I picked my daughter up from the house, so I knocked on the door. And her mother was meant to be coming with me, but there was no answer. So I just looked through the letterbox, and I could see my daughter sobbing on the stairs. She was probably about five years old at that time. Luckily, the door was open, so I went in, I grabbed her and gave her a hug and stuff.

And I opened the living room door and it was just this array of passed out people, you know, residues of a party just all around them. And I remember just thinking, oh my God. But I also felt powerless towards the mother because you know I don't want the mother to be in this mess. Maybe it's because of my own history but I don't like people being around my son if they've had so much as a glass of wine let alone seeing your child in such distress and surrounded by people using drugs.

I wonder if I'd be able to still be so balanced and compassionate towards the mother. Even with my own experience, I can see how very hard that is. There's a huge amount of hardship and scarring that she has been through in her lifetime. And if I remove my daughter from that, you know, you could look at the mother and understand why she's fallen down this path I can understand why lots of people fall down this path I wouldn't wish any of this on anybody but then I felt powerless about myself as well because I felt like some decisions I had to make and they weren't my personal decisions so a lot of my independence has disappeared because there's so much involvement from other people in terms of family support and

stuff and I'm so thankful to my family for being there but as an adult and a grown-up you want to live and be independent yourself and stand on your own feet when you were talking about you know that powerlessness i remember being in a rehab once and they did this exercise with the group and obviously we were all kind of addicts very newly clean and they were like what are the feelings that you think of when you think of being in addiction and and we all came up with things like you said like powerlessness terror isolation despair desperation and said well the family and the people around you And we all came up with things, like you said, like powerlessness, terror, isolation, despair, desperation. And said, well, the family and the people around you are also going through that. They don't have that heavy duty anesthetic.

They have to experience it all. Yeah, right. And I suppose that's the choice everyone has, though, isn't it? It's like whether you can deal with things without the anesthetic or you turn to an anesthetic. But, you know, whether that's to an anaesthetic but you know whether that's heroin or or prescribed medication or you know so when you got custody of your daughter you've obviously said you know how hard you tried to kind of support without taking this kind of harder intervention did you also try to keep your daughter's mum as part of her life?

When we were going through the court stages, she was going to a contact centre and having sessions with the mother. But, you know, basically none of those sessions went on time and to schedule and a couple of them she didn't turn up to at all. So we used to just sit there for an hour. And I was just looking at my daughter getting more and more anxious and struggling with it you know is mum gonna turn up all those questions going through my daughter's head am I worth enough am I important enough for my mother to fix herself so we went went through that lot and then and then when the mother stopped turning up to court basically I said to the court look I fully support contact if things are going positively.

But what I'm asking the court to do is to not lock me into turning up every two weeks to somewhere that the mother's not going to turn up to because my daughter's suffering from that. But, you know, I've always wanted is to have a mother, but a good mother that's going to be responsible and isn't going to put her in danger, isn't going to involve her with the life that surrounds heroin, I suppose. And phone calls just stopped between mother and daughter. And I never said they should stop. They just stopped. And then the mother disappeared for nearly two years. I've done that to my family too, just disappeared. In my mind if I wasn't in contact they wouldn't worry about me. I didn't want them to see me in the state I was in so I told myself I'd sort

myself out first but the weeks turned to months and before I knew it a year had passed. I deluded myself that I wasn't hurting them if they didn't know how bad things were, but of course I know now that it just caused more terror and pain for them. These are the lies you can tell yourself when you need to. How did the daughter react when her mum went off the radar? She had mood swings and anger problems from it. She expressed an awful lot of anger towards female role models,

particularly my new partner and also to my mother. problems from it. She expressed an awful lot of anger towards female role models, particularly my new partner and also to my mother. And I think it caused a lot of trust issues when it came to females because obviously her mother had told her, you know, she loves her to bits and all this and she's always going to be there and then all of a sudden she was gone. My daughter used to have behavioural outbreaks in school and well I mean that was part of the problems basically the kids in school sort of found out how to push her buttons and then they pick on her and cause her to snap and then she'd get in trouble in school and then she didn't have any friends because of that so since being away from that environment my daughter's made friends

she's calmed down her anger management is so much better. She takes pride in her work. Sitting in a contact centre like that just sounds like an impossible situation. You're kind of damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. Yeah, that's generally how you feel about every single decision. And there's always somebody out there that thinks you should have done something different. You just reminded me of my own mum. Obviously I'm well now and have been for a while. But, you know, during my addiction, her attempts to help me, people telling her, no, you shouldn't help her. And, oh, you shouldn't help her in that way. And, you know, she just never knew if she did

the right thing. And, you know, those questions that stayed with her. I just think that is the curse of parenthood, isn't it? You love your child, you want to do the right thing for them. How can you know what the right thing is? Because there isn't one right thing, I guess. Yeah, you just brought something up. So throughout all of this, my daughter's understanding is, but mum's ill, so why can't we go and help her and rescue her? But trying to explain to a child that you can't necessarily rescue somebody

and you know if they want help then of course we'll help but you can't chase them around and and I certainly can't go dropping you off so that you can fix her for the years prior to me getting custody my daughter saw herself as the person that fixed her mum she used to tell me you know mummy's crying mummy's hiding I used to hug her, you know, mummy's crying, mummy's hiding. I used to hug her and make her feel better. Who's going to do that now? It just sounds like so much on such young shoulders. I don't know if I should say this, but I mean, the situation my daughter is going through

is basically abandonment. And people have said, you know, this is basically just put your daughter in a state of limbo and and in a way it would have been better if the worst had happened because at least there would have been an end and there wouldn't have been all of these questions and yeah I mean I can't lie I sat and when when I felt sad and that's crossed my mind I hate myself for that. Members of my own family expressed that to me when I was in the cycle of relapse.

At least if I died, they could have some closure and move on. For them, it was like living with an open wound that never heals. And I feel like all of my want for the mother to get better is for the benefit of my daughter. But all of my anxiety, you know, the idea that she's going to get a little bit better and then fall backwards, that's the worst thought in the world because all you can see is more trauma for my daughter.

That hope can just be so painful, that kind of glimmer of hope, I suppose, because it keeps the door open, doesn't it? Yeah, and I'm talking to you now and stuff and I don't feel worthy of talking to you how come yeah I've had my own issues I I haven't fallen into heroin all that sort of stuff like but you know there's there's been periods of my life where I've certainly I've drunk too much and I've behaved badly. I've lost friends through my anger. And when I was 18, my dad sort of topped himself and, you know, that sent me on a wobbly and stuff. So I don't feel I can sit on the moral high ground because I could have fallen into this trap. To me, that just says that you've got insight and empathy.

You know, we could all go to bad places. You're just telling your story and I know that you just want what's best for your daughter so how do you see the future for your daughter and and her relationship with her mother and you I guess I've got to be honest I'm petrified about the future so when was the last time your daughter did have contact with her mum I started emailing again January 7th, but recently my daughter's turned around,

she's disengaged from that, and I'm not sure whether she's testing her mum to see if she'll continue emailing. And what I want to believe is that the mother's genuine in what she's saying, that, you know, she's off heroin, she's on the mend, that things are going to get better and brighter, and, yeah, you know, in the distant future she'll potentially be going to see her mum and stuff and having a life with her again in some sort of way.

But, yeah, I'm worried about the mental health and the psychological effects that this is going to have on my daughter. So, yeah, I'm scared. You can catch up on all our stories in this series by searching for Woman's Hour Second Chances on BBC Sounds. Now to the incredible story of a woman watching the news and deciding to help in an extraordinary way. It's nearly 30 years since the start of the Bosnian War, a conflict that saw the worst atrocities in Europe since World War II. About 100,000 were killed and over 2 million displaced between 1992 and 1995. Watching the coverage, thousands of miles away in north-east Scotland, Claire Findlay and her husband Andrew felt moved to do something. This resulted in them finding 21 Bosnian children and

four mothers on their doorstep. She features in a new BBC TV series called Saved by a Stranger. And Claire joins me now. Claire, many will watch and listen to the news, but few end up doing anything. What moved you to try to help? To be absolutely honest, can you hear me? We can, we can. Yeah, all right. No, to be honest, I think it was just that we were very shocked by what was going on, in which we associated those kinds of things with what had happened when we were all babies. And I was 50 that year, and I thought I was old. But I thought to foster a couple of children would be a good offer to take two Bosnian children for three months. But how did you end up with 21 children and four mothers in a coach?

As we see in this programme, I've had the pleasure of seeing it, outside your home. Well, it was easy enough. We had a phone call out of the blue from the people who organised these trips for the children out of Bosnia. And they said, we've got a terrible emergency. There's a little plane on the airport in Tarmac in Split, and they're not allowed to land at Gatwick with their cargo of 21 children and four mothers, unless they've got an address to go to. A bit surprised I was, because I couldn't think why they didn't already have one. But when they pushed me, I said, look, okay, they can come for a few days, we'll sort it out, and it won't be that difficult. We lived in a house and I thought well you know 21 children isn't that much more than five

and I was quite used to most mothers know what it's like to have it's a lifetime sentence I can tell you I'm now nearly 80 but it is something that you either do it or you don't do it and I did but I'm just loving that well 21 is not that many more than five. I should say you did have the help of neighbours who came and donated. And tell us a bit about that. And I mean, just how did you actually sort of get everybody to eat and sleep? Well, first of all, somebody arrived on the doorstep who was out of a job. He was a chef and he came and said he'd cook for the time that the children were there, which we thought would be a couple of days.

And he did. He donned his white coat, went to the kitchen. Lots of other people got involved because the media had been told by the charity about this thing and that they were coming to our house. So basically, the people who came and helped, this is one of the reasons I agreed to do the programme, because it actually was a lovely chance to say thank you. Yes, it took two of us. There were hundreds and hundreds of people whose names I never knew. I could never write letters to them when the whole thing was over.

It took quite a long time for it to be over. But by that time, I didn't know who had done what. It was just a wonderful time. And you found out that 13 of them were not orphans, as you'd expected, with the remarkable help of a local schoolgirl, which this shows, this program is

involved in tracking down who could speak their language and help try and trace their families and and that was a really big turning point absolutely huge because it also it changed the whole situation from being a temporary one as when this girl came the foremothers told in graphic detail the ghastly things that they had seen, witnessed, and the children had all seen these things too, which they never should have done. And to be quite honest, I was just so thrilled that they were here and safe. And when it turned out that actually their mothers were alive, I thought, well, that's absolutely amazing. But I said to the social services people, look, you can't whisk them. They're not orphans anymore.

They can stay here. There are four mothers who know their mothers and they'll get those mothers back. But they can't be whisked off to foster parents who don't know them and they couldn't speak to each other. So we decided they must stay until their seven mothers arrived. And they did. Which, again, is another remarkable part of this. And you stay close to a lot of these people haven't you and and they've settled some of them in scotland most of them are about well over half of them are in elgin and yes i see them when i go up there

uh we've kept in very close touch because they became literally part of our family a very extended family but in a very special way, because through their eyes and their talking, we experienced what they'd been through. And it was a very, very shocking time. Just to bring our conversation full circle on women's identity, if you heard the start of our programme, we've been talking about, you know, life beyond, I suppose, 50, beyond that middle age. And I love what you just said that I thought I was old at 50. And then I had 21 children turn up. Now I'm verging on 80. And I love what you just said there. I thought I was old at 50 and then I had 21 children turn up. Now I'm verging on 80. And you know what?

I'm not scared about it anymore. I love being where I am. I've got a lovely family and my other Bosnians who are part of my family. We keep in touch all the time. Well, thank you very much for giving us a snippet

into what is an amazing story you can see in full on this new BBC TV series, Saved by a Stranger. Claire Findlay there talking to us about all her ages and what she got up to with quite extraordinary results. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.