Woman's Hour - Dawn French, Laura Linney, Israel-Gaza conflict, Unconventional living

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

Nearly 350,000 people have been displaced in Gaza, since Israel launched retaliatory air strikes and created a blockade of the area. In Gaza's hospitals, where thousands of people are being treated, power is running out. Women and children are chief among those affected. Emma speaks to Lyse Doucet, the BBC’s Chief International Correspondent, Najla Shawa, a humanitarian worker who lives in the west side of Gaza City with her family and Adele Raemer, a grandmother in Israel. Emmy winning actor, Laura Linney, joins Emma Barnett to discuss her new film, The Miracle Club, in which she stars alongside other film icons, Maggie Smith and Kathy Bates. Emma asks her how much she misses playing Wendy Byrde in the much-acclaimed long-running TV series Ozark.'My Boyfriend Lives with with My Husband,' was the intriguing headline of an article in the Guardian newspaper recently; While Caroline and the children she shares with her husband Niel live in Cheltenham, Niel is living with Caroline's boyfriend in Scotland. Both Caroline and Niel describe their unconventional family living arrangements to Emma and explain how it came about and why it works for them. Dawn French has been making people laugh as a writer, comedian and actor, for more than 30 years. Her celebrated shows include French and Saunders, The Vicar of Dibley, and Jam and Jerusalem. She joins Emma to discuss her new book about the hilarious gaffes that she made in life, as part of her one-woman mission to celebrate what it means to be gloriously, messily human, rather than striving for Instagram-style-perfection. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Steve Greenwood

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. As Israel's siege of Gaza continues, the Israeli government has said it will not end until Israeli hostages who were seized at the weekend by Hamas are released. That means no electricity, no water and no fuel. On today's Woman's Hour, we are continuing to focus on the impact on women caught up in this conflict. Shortly, you will hear from the BBC's chief international correspondent, Lise Doucette.

Yesterday, we heard from Adele Rehmer, an Israeli woman, about trying to survive a Hamas attack on her home in her kibbutz and how she nearly lost her grandchildren. She has now fled her home. Today we will hear from a Palestinian woman in Gaza, Najla Shawar, who is trying to stay safe in her home with her two young daughters and the neighbours who have lost their homes and are now sheltering with them. The overall death toll now stands at over 2,000, at around 1,200 Israelis and a similar number in Gaza. The numbers, as you understand, are changing. We'll keep you up to date throughout the programme

as things do change. You can text the programme here on anything you hear on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Or get in touch via the Woman's Hour website. You can email or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Also on today's programme, the Emmy award-winning actor Laura Linney, you may know her from Ozark, Love Actually or The Big C,

has now teamed up with Dame Maggie Smith and Kathy Bates for her new film. She'll be here shortly. The comedian, writer and all-round joy Dawn French is also coming by the Women's Hour studio today. And you're going to hear about an unusual living arrangement with your ex. Could it be the future?

All that to come. But first, nearly 350,000 people have been displaced in Gaza since Israel launched retaliatory airstrikes and created a blockade of the area. In Gaza, hospitals where thousands of people are being treated, power is running out. Women and children are chief amongst those affected, of course. Israel's energy minister said this morning that no electricity, water or fuel will be switched back on until the more than 150 hostages kidnapped by Hamas in the attacks last Saturday have been freed. Israeli women and children were among those snatched from their homes last weekend. Today in Israel, families living in the north of the country have been told to stay close to bomb shelters for fear of possible attacks coming from the border with Lebanon.

Lise Doucette is the BBC's chief international correspondent. Lise, good morning. Well, it's not a good morning, but it's good to join you, Emma. Tell us about, first of all, I mentioned around the latest around the details of Gaza and what the Israeli government has said. Can you bring us up to speed on that? Yes, we'll rejoin you and your many women's hour listeners from the town of Surat. When it comes to this never-ending Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Surat is sadly very iconic. At one point, this small, what's called a development town in southern Israel,

at one point it's only a what's called a development town in southern Israel, at one point, it's only a mile from the Gaza Strip. Every time there is a flare-up, it is the people of this community who suffer the most. The rockets which land here, the Hamas fighters who come here, they always bear the brunt of the suffering. And so, too, this time. And, you know, you might, you can see behind me the pretty boulevards actually strot means boulevards in arabic the boulevards with with pine trees and but just beyond this is gaza and you may hear during our conversation the thud of of of israeli bombardment that is now going on night and day. You may hear the crack of artillery.

There again, you hear the booms and the booms never stop. And the booms are just the signal of something terrible happening in the Gaza Strip. But also this is about the time, Emma, where the rockets start landing almost on schedule. We saw yesterday in this area, we were on the edge of the closed military zone yesterday, and there was a rain of rockets. You could see them streaking across this blue Israeli sky into Israel, hitting towns and lights across this area. And the Iron Dome, Israel's much-vaunted air defence system, went into action. And aid agencies have been calling for a humanitarian corridor

to talk about Gaza, specifically to let civilians, including women and children, leave. Do we have a latest on that? Every war of our time is also a deepening humanitarian crisis. And it is so much so in this kind of a crisis where the bombardment, Israel says it is targeting Hamas infrastructure, Hamas leaders. But in a strip of land that is, we've said it so often, one of the most densely populated places on earth, civilians are suffering. It is a terrifying time. It is the toughest of time

for people whose lives are already tough even before this crisis erupted. So the calls for a humanitarian corridor, a safe passage, grow ever louder. But the way, in the midst of this intensifying war, it's not even safe for the aid workers who live in Gaza with their families to leave their homes. You mentioned Najla Sharma. She works for Oxfam, an international aid agency. She's sheltering with her two young daughters, with other families, trying to stay safe. The U.S. Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken, has just arrived in Israel. He will join the chorus of voices who are saying, yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but we must remember the rules of war. Even in war, there are rules. You cannot

target civilians. We must do everything possible to ease the suffering. We have to open an airport or possibly through Egypt, which controls the one crossing, land crossing out of Gaza, which isn't controlled by Israel. So Emma, the efforts are intensifying, but so too is the war. And there are these two clocks running. And the war clock is the much louder clock. It's tick-tocking very loudly. I mentioned about families in the north of Israel being told to stay close to bomb shelters. And there's also a striking image, just because you're talking about what you've seen in wars, and you sadly have, but it's part of your job, been to the scene of many wars. Now, there's also a striking image of a Ukrainian rabbi who has tweeted two pictures

of his grandchildren sheltering from rockets. The first is from Russian attacks in Ukraine, and then having relocated his family to Israel, now from Hamas rockets in Israel. What is the latest on the rockets and potentially attacks in the north? This has been the fear from the start in a very fearful time that there would be two fronts, as they call it, not just here in the south on the Gaza border, but also in the north on the Lebanese border, which does flare up, which has had its own conflagrations. There's also the northern border with Syria. There were rockets fired from Syria yesterday. There was also attacks yesterday on the Lebanon-Israel border. Israel attacked an observation

point inside the Lebanese border. They were also, missiles were fired from inside by Hezbollah, the most powerful military and political force in Lebanon. We understand that there's no sign that they want to get involved in this conflict in an all-out way. But once Israel begins, and most people believe it's a question of time not whether it will happen if there is a full frontal major assault on the gaza strip then all bets are off that hezbollah may feel that it's spawner bound to also put pressure something could happen on the syrian border it it will become a a kind of conflict whose consequences and dimensions simply cannot be imagined at this time. Lise Doucette, thank you very much for talking to us and putting us in the picture where you are, the BBC's chief international correspondent in Israel. Just before coming on air, I spoke to

Najla Shawa, who you heard Lise refer to there, a humanitarian worker who lives in the west side of Gaza City with her family. Currently, 12 more people have come to stay with her in the last few days. And I asked Bai how things are for her. And she's talking, I should say, in a personal capacity for her and her family at the moment. Things change every minute. We woke up at 5 a.m. on a massive explosion. All of us were just running in the corridors to meet each other.

We were all falling asleep and also the kids. And yeah, we were just trying to find out if it's very close or where is it. So yeah, we started following the news and then we started being awake since then. In my house, I live with my husband and my two daughters. They're six and nine. And an older lady, she's like a relative. And also I have another 12 people in total coming over to our house who are friends, who left an area that was severely destroyed or damaged.

They had their homes damaged and the area is not very livable. So they've been there, they've been here since that's the third day and the fourth day actually. And so, yeah, it's a big group. We're managing, we managed some breakfast this morning. We all helped each other, et cetera, and then managed the kids, you know, what they needed to do, running some, you know, essential kind of normal home, what you do in a normal home. However, with a totally different setup, of course, we have mattresses on the floor on one side and then you have some rooms that we cannot stay in you have two rooms without glass now in front of me where

i'm sitting with no grass because of the bombing across the street um yeah like um i mean now there's relative calm i'm happy i should say that I'm only hearing drones as we are speaking now, while there was some bombing to al-Shatak camp, which is not totally far from where I am, where there was a bombing on a house and several other locations. We try to keep ourselves mentally sane as much as possible, which is a challenge because sometimes it's simply the fear at night is indescribable. Like the fear of that night, for example, when we had to evacuate and leave the house, the screaming in the street of the families across our street, the building in front of me just now was threatened to be bombed. And we didn't get a call.

We just knew from the neighbours because they were leaving. Where did you go? We went to a restaurant actually. First we just wanted to drive away from the road so that was like at 1.30am and the kids

were asleep and just trying to move them to the car not finding their slippers they went barefoot, trying to carry last minute, you know, a purse or passport, documents, whatever, case or bag that we prepared. It was total panic.

It was like really a horrific moment that I don't think I will ever forget. We drove away and then our neighbor told us that let's go all together to that restaurant that they own. Because we had no idea where to go. The situation is so miserable. It's so risky. I don't know how to describe it. I've been in Gaza. I mean, all my life I'm born and raised here.

I mean, I'm from here, but and I witnessed all kinds of things. That moment of what we're living now is that in case we want to go, we don't know where to go. Everyone I know has left their home. Everyone, everyone. Like I'm not exaggerating. Everyone I know has either left their home, their another house or taking shelter or moving from one place, coming back to their home. You've obviously had, as you say, people come to live with you now. Are you also prepared to leave your home? Have you made those preparations? Yeah, of course. Unfortunately, I have a different set of preparations.

So one is the small purse with the bag with the documents and passport. Another bigger suitcase with more kind of essential stuff, especially for the kids, like essential clothing, etc. And what they did, they came with lots of different pieces. They were just running from their home actually they were the area was bombed while they were leaving they were actually running in the street the little boy when he came to our house i've never met him i know one of one of the relatives only he he started crying once he saw me and i hugged him and that's the first time i

meet him i mean that was such a moment you know know, I was like, come, you're home, you're fine, you're safe, we're going to be okay. And then he started crying. He told me the bombs were in the street. I felt the heat and the air pressuring in my face. I was running. So, I mean, dealing with such moments, I mean, it also teaches you a lot about appreciating safety and peace a lot more. We are treating this as a really like emergency situation. Like even if we have food, we don't know when are we going to replenish. Mostly is canned food, of course, and things that we're just improv an emergency situation, but about your ability to cope with this psychologically at the moment, how you are in that place today as we talk? You know, you try not to think about it for the moment.

But you know that I guess we have a certain level of learning that helps and there is some certain level of learning that doesn't help sometimes. Sometimes you're oversensitive because you're tired and you had so much of it. But again, I managed to kind of step back. Okay, it's going to be over some way or another. We are all together supporting each other. And we definitely feel very privileged compared to others who lost totally their homes and lost their family members. I know people personally, many people who lost their homes and I can't imagine having everything

that belongs to me everything in a house and that's gone and managing the stress with the kids I think is the priority as a mother and so really my psychological situation is uh yeah it's important I try to rest as much as possible etc etc. But talking to them, explaining to them is very hard. There are reports of readiness now on the Israeli side for ground troops to potentially come into Gaza. I don't know what you may have heard about that and how that has come across to you, but when thinking about the psychological side of this, as well as the sort of physical side of this and how one tries to prepare the practical side of this, what do you want to say about that? For some reason, we are trying not to process that. It's like when we hear it, it just kind of

reflects, you know, as if we don't want to hear it. Honestly, now when we hear it, it just kind of reflects, you know, as if we don't want to hear it. Honestly, now when I hear it from you, it's like, I don't want to think about it. How to be prepared? I mean, how would we prepare? I mean, we're just normal people who are civilians in our homes and we have an army with tanks that we have seen very well before. And we can imagine what it could look like. Can I ask as well, and I recognise the situation is changing very regularly, just finally, if there was a humanitarian corridor, if there was a way to leave, would you take that? Would you do that?

No, most likely not. What is the reason for that decision? Because I don't want to be a refugee in the Sinai Desert. Many people, many friends are waiting, desperate to leave, at least for a break. And if I have the right to leave for a break and come back home as anyone would, then yeah, for sure, that's what I desperately need with my kids,

to have a break. So you do it in that circumstance, you would do it in that way? Yeah, but not in the sense that I'm running away. I hope I won't need it. I'm saying that because I'm now in a good position. Maybe I tomorrow will be different. Najla Shawa, who I spoke to you just before coming on air this morning. On yesterday's

programme, you may have been with me for that. If you weren't, you can catch up to the full interview on BBC Sounds. But we did hear from Adele Raymer. And you can hear a bit of this interview now, a grandmother in Israel about what happened to her and her family as Hamas attacked her home and Kibbutz along the border with Gaza. My grandchildren on Kibbutz Nirim were in the house with their father. My daughter and son are separated. So they were in the safe room with their father. And he heard the terrorists inside his house. He told the children, go under the blanket, open the safe room door, went out, closed it behind him, and shot the terrorists that were in his house. They were a meter away from him. And he saw the others running out. He tried to call the

others. He realized that there were too many other armed terrorists nearby. So he turned around and went back into the safe room and was with them. I almost lost three of my grandchildren on Saturday. That close. We were that close. They tried to infiltrate my house also. The slots on my window were broken for some reason. Dumb luck or divine intention, they turned away. But we all lost so many people or almost lost so many people. And this can never, never happen again, no matter what it takes. I will never apologize for my army now to do anything it needs to, to keep up safe. I'm the first person that says things need to be dealt with through diplomacy. I'm the first person that all these

years I've said, this can't be solved by weapons. This has to be solved through diplomatic means. My DNA changed on Saturday. Our DNA changed of this whole country. Our DNA changed on Saturday. The Jewish people are about doing good, about helping the world, about improving the world. But our DNA has been forever altered. Adele Rehmer, a grandmother in Israel, talking about what happened in her kibbutz and having had to flee her home.

You can hear that full interview on BBC Sounds. You can search for Wednesday's Woman's Hour. And of course, to keep up with the latest developments on this conflict, as things are rapidly changing, as you can hear, do go to the live page on the BBC News website. Now, you will have undoubtedly come across my next guests on many occasions, whether that's film or TV or her great love, I believe, on stage. I am talking about the Emmy Award winner, Laura Linney, who's just joined me in the studio. We have watched her inhabit a wide range of characters. You may have been lucky enough to see her on stage in the UK in London in 2018

when she took on the role of Lucy Barton in a one-woman play and then went to Broadway, winning her a clutch of awards. Laura Linney is with me here in the UK in the studio. Good morning. Good morning. Welcome. And we're talking first and foremost, if we can, about your latest film, The Miracle Club, and you're with Dame Maggie Smith and Kathy Bates. What a trio of women. It's nice company to be in. Absolutely. Can you tell us a bit about this, what your role is and what drew you to it? Absolutely. Absolutely. is a very sweet, small movie that originated in Ireland.

It's about an intergenerational group of friends who have grown up together. They were extremely close at one point, and then there was a big break in the friendships and the relationships, and it's sort of a... There's unfinished business to be taken care of between these four women. And you see that resolution or the journey of that relationship evolve over the course of the movie. And there is a journey.

Yes, there is. There's a pilgrimage. There is an emotional journey. There's a spiritual journey. There's a physical journey. Yes. Where do your characters go? We go from Ireland to Lourdes.

They go to take the water at Lourdes in search of miracles yes and and that that again is is quite a journey um to reflect you know for a lot of people it's a very big moment and it's also you know miracles take many shapes and forms and um you know I think everyone is in need of a miracle here and there, particularly these days. So it's in that way, it does make you sort of stop and think about what our resources are outside, inside, within ourselves, from other people, our communities. Why did you want to do this particular role? What drew you to it? Oh, well, I wanted to work with Maggie Smith. There you go, job done. Interview finished.

No, no, I'm joking. And Kathy Bates had always been a huge idol of mine as well. So, and I loved the script. And I'd always wanted to go to Ireland. So it was a whole combination of things. But, you know, really it's Maggie. They say don't meet your heroes

or possibly well with them. I adore her. I adore her. She confirmed everything I know to be true about good work. She's just it incarnate. She has a mind like a diamond. And I loved every second of being around her. It was a real privilege. I mentioned you love your stage work as well. I do. Yes. So I'm sure you had a lot to discuss. We did and it's actually how I met her originally

was I was here doing Lucy Barton which was a one woman show that I did at the Bridge and she came to opening night and I saw her there. Thank God I didn't know she was going to be there. Always good. You know, good Lord. My teeth almost fell out of my mouth when I saw her

for the first time. I almost ran. I actually almost, my instinct was to leave the building. It was to turn around and run. Well, with a one-woman cast, that might be quite nerve-wracking for your team. But she was incredibly kind and we struck up a friendship from that. And then she decided to do a one-woman show as well.

And so we talked a lot about what it is to do a one-woman show, what it takes, what's the pitfalls, the advantages, the disadvantages. So we started a sort of professional conversation there. And then luckily, we were able to do this movie together and we became quite friendly. What did you learn by being on your own on the stage? Because we have seen more and more women doing this now, you know, not just in comedy, which is where we're perhaps used to the idea of one person on stage stand up. But, you know, what do you make of that? Well, even though that there's one person, you need a tremendous team around you and you need language to express that is worthy of people's attention.

I mean, really, it's the writing more than anything. And then you have to get out of the way. So even though it is just one person, it is not about you at all. You have to really just step aside. It's a strange sort of way to look at it. But, you know, the material has to carry you through. I mean, there would be times where I'd be like, Oh, my God, I've been talking for an hour and a half. Like, I have got to be quiet. Like, shut up. I couldn't believe people would want to – I don't talk that much. Well, I talk for a living and people would love me to shut up.

Especially my family when I go home. I know. But I would have moments where I'm like, dear God, I'm still talking. I have not stopped talking. But that's why you need the script to be absolutely brilliant. That's true. And you need a great director and you need designers

and you need an audience that is willing to participate. But I learned a lot. Coming back to the Miracle Club, without giving things away, the return of your character isn't welcomed by everybody at first. And again, I don't want to give things away,

but the way in which your character had left their lives was under a cloud. It's quite a specific cloud to women as well and how shame and all of that works together. What can you say about that and what were you bringing to that? Well, I think when people lose family, whether that is voluntary or involuntary, I think their lives are erratically changed. And I think it forces an evolution that can take you to surprising places. So her return to her, you know, where she was born,

the people who she grew up with, the air that she was accustomed to breathing, after being in the United States for 40 some odd years to return after that is, you know, you realize how much you've changed and how much is still exactly the same. Yeah. And how do you reconcile those two things? And there's obviously the themes of parenting there as well around how you reconcile with your parent or also their friends and the society, the community that you grew up in.

That's right. You came to parenting a little bit later in your life and you've spoken about and what you said publicly about that is, you know, a sense of grounding happened for you. Well, yes, it was something I didn't expect to happen. I didn't think it would happen for me. And so I was very overjoyed when it did. Parenting is not right for everyone. It was something that I certainly did want to do. So and there is within the movie, there are themes of parenting and mothering. And what is it to be a mother? What is it to receive the complicated love that a mother can give a daughter? And then the surrogate parents who are there. The women who you grow up around who you might not be biologically related to but are logically related to, who have had an enormous influence on your life whether you like it or not so and then how when you age how how sort of like a kaleidoscope your view of of everything just shifts and can shift very quickly and how you recognize weaknesses and frailties

and human flaws in people that you did not see when you were younger. And see your parents and their friends, perhaps, as people. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And I think you can be a little more forgiving of them and a little more forgiving of yourself as well. Hopefully. I did watch an interview with you a while ago, where I think you said your son hadn't quite understood what you did for a living, but you seem to have lots of friends on the street. Yes, that's right. That's how I explain it. Yes. Has he got more used to that yet? A little bit. I mean, he's still a little perplexed.

And that's just fine. It's lovely to see you smile because forever in my mind, you know, when you are an actor, you stay in certain people's minds for certain things. And no, I just with love, actually. What slot do I? No, no, it's just the role in Love Actually. You had that huge crush on your co-worker, Carl, and then struggled to develop a relationship because of your responsibilities and love for your brother.

And I'm sorry to take you back to this, but how nice it is to see you smile. Because I, you know, what was so good about that film with so many different plots is you always felt like it was a short story and you were always trying to finish it. Yes, yes. It gave you a lot of room to fill in the blanks there. That's part of why that movie is so successful, I think. Do people come up to you, whatever the role, and sort of, you know, talk to you as the character or try and finish off certain things? No, except for some things.

I'm actually not at liberty to talk about a lot of the work that I've done because of the strike that's going on. So I'm really not. You're talking about the riotous strike. And the SAG strike. And the SAG strike. I'm not at liberty to discuss any of my past work. Okay. At the moment.

But in normal times, I imagine people, you know, say whatever they want to in terms of who you've lived on in there, you know, have things that they sort of project because of that. That's right. I think people can come with a preconceived notion of who you are. Yes. Well, I'm very happy that working with a hero, Maggie Smith turned out exactly as it should be. I remember a while ago in a conversation I had on her with another actor who was saying, you know, just to have a cup of tea with her would be great. Yes, absolutely. And let me explain while I have the opportunity. I think it's important for you all to understand that the reason I'm able to talk about this particular film is because my union, the SAG union, SAG-AFTRA, has granted the Miracle

Club what's called an interim agreement, which you may have heard that term bandied about a bit. And what that means is that it's not a pass. It's not an exemption. It means that these smaller companies, Embankment and Zephyr, have agreed to the stipulations that SAG is asking for within the contract. So they have agreed to what the larger companies are saying no to. That is helpful context. So that is why I'm able to talk about The Miracle Club. It is why I'm able to talk about those films that are granted an interim agreement. So for your listeners, if you see someone

representing a film or a television show, and you're like, why are they talking if their union is on strike, and they're so adamant about being on strike? It's because these agreements are in place. And it is an agreement. It is not a pass. It is an agreement. Well, thank you for coming to talk. My pleasure. As part of the Miracle Club. What a club it is with the women who are part of it and giving us some of that context. And it's lovely to see here in the UK. I hope you have a good time while you're here.

I always love being here. I love it. Thank you so much. Laura Linney there. And the new film, as I say, is called The Miracle Club. Now, we spotted an intriguing headline in the papers recently. My boyfriend lives with my husband and yes it turned out to be accurate not quite the whole story. Caroline and the children we caught up with the the people that this story was about live in Cheltenham while Neil her ex and the father of their children and Ian her new boyfriend currently live together in Scotland. Caroline and Neil joined me recently to explain the reasons

behind their unconventional set-up, and Caroline started by explaining why she originally set out to pick someone who was going to be a good ex. My parents made a complete dog's breakfast out of their divorce. I remember thinking, God, this is awful. And up until I met Neil, I didn't have a great experience with romantic partners. And I just couldn't envisage having any of them in my life

beyond the sort of immediate future. So when it got to the stage where I was thinking about the fact that I wanted to have children, I was in my sort of late 20s. And I thought, I've got to get a handle on this and at that point I was a pretty established estate agent and I'd seen you know people that had bought houses a couple of years ago were then selling their houses having split up and it just seemed to be rife so I thought I'm just I'm going to take charge of this and I'm going to pick somebody that's going to be a good

ex because the odds are he's going to become an ex. Neil, are you overawed by the romance of this genesis of thought? It is touching, yes. I mean, it's moving me to unknown planes of romanticism. Were you thinking Caroline would be a decent ex as well when you started that? Yeah, no choice. No, I mean, being a man and being me,

I wasn't thinking at the time that far ahead um i was just thinking about where we were going to go on the friday night and what pizza we're going to order the typical sort of man stuff of the 90s there was a tricky start at the beginning is that right neil well i think we had we'd been forced apart so but we got good at being apart yeah yeah my work had made had forced me to come back to london um so i had no choice. We did that. Literally, as soon as we got off the plane from our honeymoon and he's got the home office set up and that was the plan.

You know, we'd moved out of London and here we are. And then they were like, OK, you need to report back to London. So from the get-go, we were separated. And it was like that. And we got into a rhythm, didn't we? And when we had our first son, it was like that and we got into a rhythm didn't we and when we had our first son it was fine and the problems really came from when he came home and I remember being on maternity leave with our second son and I was like god he's everywhere why is he here and I was used to my own

space at that point I was used to doing everything I wanted to do and we were you feeling the same yeah we were we were definitely on two different paths and we we could see each other's path if you know what i mean but we were going to the same place but for a different route and it was killing us pretending that we were happy yeah and that was some extra energy you didn't yet yeah yeah and i always say to people we we were never happier than when we admitted we weren't happy so this is what we're getting to which is you know what people may be able to relate to or maybe, I don't know, you'll inspire somebody listening to this. What did you come up with that was your workable solution?

Well, we came clean to one another and our boys knew about it and we agreed what we were going to do. Well, in practical terms, what we did was we did what we assumed we were supposed to do, which is physically supposed to separate because that's what everyone says you were going to do? Well, in practical terms, what we did was we did what we assumed we were supposed to do, which is physically supposed to separate. Because that's what everyone says you're supposed to do. That's what their norm is. So we initially, do you remember, we rented that flat. But

it was like a rubbish flat because it was all we could afford. And then it was a case of, well, I don't want to go there. But the idea was to ship ourselves off on an alternate week basis so we wouldn't have to uproot the children. So we tried that for a bit. And I think I maybe spent one night there. I spent about three.

And it was like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to be in a house without my children. So we just, neither of us ever used it. So we gave notice on it almost immediately. And that was a huge waste of money. But we thought, we still need privacy. So let's think of our other options. So then we were like, right, let's each of of us take turns we live in the cotswolds so

there's loads of nice hotels around for what it cost us to rent a flat we had it would spend less than that with like less than half of that and each of us could take turns spending the night in a hotel on a weekend just to get a bit of space and a bit of respite only that that got old really fast because then you're just in a hotel room looking at the walls thinking i miss my kids i don't want to be here so then it was coming together in the kitchen one day and it was just like this is ridiculous like all of this essentially for the privilege of being able to date without an audience that's what it came down did you have a conversation you said, let's move back in together and we can be with other people?

No, we operated, I remember having this conversation on a don't ask, don't talk about it basis because it was still too weird to talk about either of us dating. That just reminded me of the see it, say it, sort it from the train station. Sorry. We were both like, because I knew he was dating, he knew I was dating, but i was dating but it was still

early days to be talking about did the people you knew that the people you were dating did they know you lived with your ex yeah yeah yeah oh they did not like it yeah people don't like it i think both of us i think we both independently adopted the same approach which is you need to know this before we go to date too you need to know this and this isn't going to change if you're not okay with this that's fine but it was brilliant for weeding out the weirdos that would never have got on board with our vibe anyway so it just we made a really conscious decision didn't we right at the start our egos are irrelevant here the important thing is our children they have to come first wherever else is going on with us

that can wait and we don't need to talk about this we nobody's met anyone that we need to concern ourselves at that stage just before we get to ian the other major character in your play that is your life uh the rom-com here um did your children know you were dating other people oh yeah they don't know if we discussed dating. They were still quite young. But they knew we weren't together as a couple. They knew we were a mum and dad team forever, but that we weren't together couple-wise. So let's talk about Ian.

Karen, you met someone, Ian. I did. And you drove Neil to a pub to meet him. Is that right? Was that a fun night? It started off awkward. Yeah. And then we ended up just laughing.

Well, I remember when I first told Neil about this and I sort of sat him down and said, look, I've got some news and he looked all serious. And I said, I think I've met someone that might be special. I think this one might stick. I've explained our situation. He was immensely jealous because he would have loved to have done something like that

when he and his wife split up, but that was not on the cards card she didn't want to go down and he has kids as well he has kids as well so i said but i'm you know this is early enough for me to give you the reins on this one because you're my best friend i know that you want what's best for me and i know that you want what's best for the boys and this guy's going to be spending time with our boys so you've got to clear him you know i'm sending you in you are my spy you are my my soldier go and check him out and see if he's somebody that i can trust and if you say that this is a non-starter he's gone but if you like him that's a lot of power that's a lot of power but he's a pincer movement he was never going to put his own happiness above mine. I knew he was... But you also, at this point,

have to be okay with your boys being around somebody, don't you? And that's what I think some men may struggle with. To be fair, I do joke still sometimes about being replaced, but I don't genuinely feel it. I like to wind people up by taking the mickey sometimes. But when I met him, I thought, okay, he's different. I don't get half of what he's talking about you know he seems unusual but i got a vibe straight away that he was a decent guy you know he was somebody that wouldn't go out of his way to either hurt caroline and he

certainly wouldn't enter his head to on purpose do something mean to my children so i thought okay that and i got that and i stand by that still to this day yeah i mean people listening to this who have been forced to be in the situation that you're in because they can't afford to do anything else. They also don't have a house where perhaps there's another bedroom, you know, just aware of all of that. But if I can, certainly for time purposes or as much as I'm enjoying talking to both of you,

there is quite a lot to get to because I know you also locked down as a bubble during lockdown and we kind of worked together and got to know each other. But if I can fast forward to where we seem to have got to now, where is who's living where? I've got a bit confused. So Caroline still lives in Cheltenham with our children.

I relocated up to Scotland to train as a teacher and I'm renting a room in Ian's brother's house and Ian lives there with his son, his youngest son. So that sounds a lot weirder than it is. But it's factually accurate. I love a fact. I'm a woman who loves a fact. So Ian moved, took his kids,

went to go and live with his brother who needed some daily help and all of his family up there anyway. So the plan was at that stage, we're all going to go. Sounds like everyone's moved away from you. It's like, what did I say? So the plan was we were all going to go.

But our eldest was in the middle of his GCSEs at that stage. Neil had just finished his degree and he was like, right, what am I going to do with it? So you're going to train as a teacher. So the plan was we're all going to move to Scotland when our eldest had done his GCSEs. And everyone was on board with that. Ian was already up there. Neil was like, well, I'll go up there and train because I can teach down here with the Scottish version but I can't teach up there with an English one and if we're gonna end up there anyway then we may as well do it now so it was all it was a good plan it was a great plan

and we're all going to cash out our own houses and buy a big house together and we're going to live on a mad commune and I had all these ideas and then of course our eldest did his GCSEs and immediately went I don't want to go I want want to do my A-levels here. So it did rather mean that Neil is up there living with Ian and I'm down here with my boys. And it's all gone a bit wrong, but that's still the plan. So everyone is kind of muddling through. Ian was not impressed that he got Neil instead of me. Neil is not impressed that he's up there without the children.

And the children aren't impressed that the garden needs mowing and there's nobody there to do it because I'm sure not going to do it. So, you know, we're all making. It was the first thing I did when I got back. So the latest plan is you will be at some point coming together in Scotland. Yeah, it might not work for everybody, but it's something we have been working at for over a decade now. This cooperation and it works for us. And do you have a partner? Yes, I do.

And where are they? She's in Cheltenham. On it goes. Well, it's good to talk to both of you. All the best. Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

I had to keep up with that one. There's a lot of detail. And that was Caroline and Neil if you have separated tried a different way of setting yourself up as a family or living perhaps you've not really got any choice in that but you've found a different way through it would be very interesting to hear from you

do get in touch in all the usual ways 84844 that's the number to text or email me through the Woman's Hour website but my next guest has just come in and she has been making people laugh for more than 30 years. As a writer, comedian and actor, Dawn French barely needs an introduction because, but I'll do it. You'll know her work from French and Saunders to The Vicar of Dibley and beyond. She's also written brilliant novels and conducted sellout tours. And her current stage

show is wonderfully called Dawn French is a huge twat and a new book on the same theme the twat files a life of mistakes no regrets dawn first of all welcome back to women's hour it's lovely to be together and thank you for getting me special dispensation to say that word yes i'm just delighted that you have it's such a lovely word to say isn't it i mean it just feels so lovely in your mouth it's got a kind of plosive energy. And it means you have to, in the middle of it, do the ah, but you have to sort of smile. You have to have a good glottal stop. You definitely do. And you know, the reason why I felt completely entitled to use this word is because it's a word my mum would happily call us.

So I know that it's sort of allowable. It's an admonishment, but it's a it's an admonishment but it's a hug i was about to say because for some people it depends maybe where you live in the country and also you know what your association is with it but what was your what was the context of your mum calling you this well if you've done something a bit wrong that is utterly forgivable you would be called that word in my household and you never would take any offense yeah and I can't believe that anybody does take offense so I'm you know I had to own this you know listen I'm 66 now and when I first suggested that this was the name of my tour and also the name of the book you know promoters and

marketers saying oh no no you're already you're you know discounting ticket sales and we won't the algorithms online and all that. Did you actually have a chat about the algorithmic value of that? Honestly, it was just ridiculous. And there's a moment when I just go, look, I'm stepping into my 66 year old skin here. I'm going to say, I like this word. Anybody who knows me will enjoy this and will enjoy this show, will enjoy this book. Come on in those who are OK with it.

Stay away those who are not. And I find it a friendly, inclusive sort of word. But there are a lot, I mean, you know, without swearing a lot, which I'm not going to do. You know, I'm from the West Country. We swear at each other all the time as a friendship. As a good morning. Yes.

It's on your necklace as well, I suppose. It's on my necklace. I'm a Dame, T-W-A-T. That has been given to me by my crew on the show. Has it? Excellent. OK, well, you walked in this morning and I said good morning to you. It's the first thing I noticed was the twatter on your neck. But I'll probably get in trouble for saying it again.

Thank you. Who knows? You can see the pleasure of saying it over and over again. If it's just to make Dawn French laugh and I can do that. And you have, thank you. And it's usually the other way around, it's a very nice thing. But I know, and we've spoken before,

but I know part of what you're doing with this, with the book, with the tour, is actually talking about things that have gone wrong, things that you then can laugh at, and how important that is, especially with women sometimes, to be able to own those things that, you know, everyone has those moments they think back to,

or even something that just happened five minutes earlier, and they're feeling awful about it. Awful. Now, it's okay to feel awful at the time when you make these stupid mistakes, when you commit whatever faux pas it is. We're all eejits, all of us. And in that moment, you can have your embarrassment, you can have your humiliation. My point is that you don't learn from anything unless you wrangle the power of it back to yourself and retell the story. And we all know, don't we, that we love to tell these stories to each other, especially if you're with a trusted friend.

You will admit your own shortcomings. You will admit the stupid thing you did that morning. And it's the most delightful thing to hear. And when somebody is telling you something dreadful they did, they're trusting that you won't judge them. So it's a bit of an unzipping and an exchange. And honestly, when I set out to, well, A, write the tour, and then B, write the book, because I realised the tour was only a small part of this tsunami of stupidity and idiocy that I've lived through in my life, especially in my work life, actually. I thought, well, I'm doing this for fun.

What I didn't know that it's a sort of it's a it's almost like a sort of social right. It's it's almost a kind of basic human need to tell to exchange stories of our idiocy so that we can understand each other and better love each other and there aren't um humble brags as well you know those stories which genuinely are a calf or genuinely are a moment that you know really made you feel a bit different inside or whatever. Because in the world that we live in of presenting our best selves. Yes. And social media and all of this. I mean, and obviously the title does that for people.

I should say, you know, some people, as you have alluded to, will find that word offensive. And as you say, that won't be for them. But what you're trying to do is bring people together underneath this. And I just need to talk to you about you wanting to be in a pony club. Should we talk about this? Yes. I mean, you know, this sort of twattery-turry started very early in my life.

I mean, my family is known for making lots of mistakes. We get things a little bit wrong, you know. We come to things late. We do it a bit wrong. And I love that. I love that about us. But one of the things we got quite wrong when I was quite young was that, I mean, I went to boarding school because my dad was in the RAF. So I went to a public school, which I never would have gone to in my class, I guess.

But the RAF paid for this. So I was at this school with girls who had ponies and the girls who had the ponies were in part of Pony Club. And these were rules I had never heard of. The kind of jodhpurs you wear, the kind of tie, the special kind of, well, the whole outfit and especially the pony, which is very expensive, which suits you, which is right for your height, your weight, everything else. This is everything I desired, but didn't know the intricate rules of. So my dad was given or he was offered a pony in exchange for a debt on a car or something. And my dad thought, oh, yeah, Dawn wants a pony. I for a debt on a car or something and my dad thought oh yeah dawn wants a pony uh i'll take this home and this was a funny old nag of a horse uh that had a an um disease called sweet itch which meant that every march this horse lost her whole mane and tail and just had pussy scabs lovely love this is not the pony I was imagining. But I love this pony very much.

And I took part in Gymkhana's again. And there's a word, you know, you don't know. Such a great word, Gymkhana. I didn't know it either till I read Equus at university. Somebody said what it was. Exactly. But there are, again, these hallowed rules in certain classes. Jennifer knows all about this. Jennifer had perfect, lovely ponies. Jennifer Saunders. Her mother knew about horses and what to buy her because the right pony for the right kid is rare as hen's teeth.

And I did not have the right pony. But anyway, I took part in a Gymkhana in the Royal Cornwall show. But my dad, along with the pony, came some old tack. So we did have a saddle and we did have a bridle, but the saddle didn't have a girth that goes underneath that attaches my dad made one out of an old tire and as I was taking part in the gym corner bearing in mind I was in my dad's gardening jacket and in in some old trousers and wellington boots this is all wrong the outfit is wrong but as I was riding the pony really galloping galloping trying to keep up with the posh girls, the saddle just started to move.

It moved because the girth was not correct and it moved. And there was this awful moment where I was genuinely riding a pony upside down with the pony's legs bashing into my head. I did eventually dismount in a cumbersome, clumsy way and just left the arena and walked my pony home in shame. But you see, there's a moment that could have stunted me for a long time. It could have been, and it was very embarrassing and humiliating at the time. I was aware that I was just not keeping the rules, the secret rules. I was aware of that. But now when I think about it, I love that little Dawn trying to ride that pony.

I love that little pony. I love that incident. So if you can wrangle the power of the mistake, of the unfortunate moment back to yourself and retell it, there's such a liberation in it and joy and joy. I mean, girth to jim carna there's there's so many beautiful words associated exactly as we come back to words like to that but what a mental image i mean it sounds like a scene from french and saunders yeah yeah well we did do sketches in french and saunders about ponies because jennifer and i both had these very opposite experiences so we knew what it was like to Well, I think we did one sketch where the whole sketch is about trying to catch them.

You know, nevermind riding them, you're trying to catch them. They won't be caught, which is often what happened with horses. And so we just jumped over the jumps ourselves. You know, that was the sketch. And it was just exactly the experience both Fatty and I had had as kids, you know.

Well, we'll go with that. There's a lot of people getting in touch today and they agree with you about the words as well that you're talking about. And that's what their mum or their family used to call them and relating to that. You do also in the book talk about the end of French and Saunders, a particular sketch that precipitated that.

It was a blip. I must point that out. It's not, I mean, it's been made a big thing of. But I suppose why on Woman's Hour I wanted to get to it was it kind of spoke to how you felt about yourself and how you felt about your looks and whether, you know, I know maybe it wasn't the biggest thing, but it spoke to this bigger thing about how you felt about whether you were the butt of the joke or not. Yes, that's exactly it. It's who's in charge of the joke is what happens. And it was our fault that I wasn't in charge of it at that moment. So we're talking about a sketch to do with Anastasia, the singer, where you were hoping that the idea was that you were hoping that you could perform on top of the pots.

Yeah. We wrote the silly sketch, which Jennifer and I had often talked about, how, you know, if you're in your car or if you're in the loo, you can sound like this wonderful singer. Wouldn't it be amazing if the singer came in and said, you're amazing. Join me on stage. It's like all your fantasies. Tap on the shoulder.

Absolutely. And so we did that. And we did. I did go on stage with her. And I absolutely love her. And we went on stage and we performed in front of an actual Top of the Pops audience who were looking at me in such a strange way. And I think the costume designer had decided to go with a particular era of Anastasia's outfits, a cowgirl sort of look, which on me at that time, five stone heavier, looked very weird. It was the wrong choice. Everything was just a bit wrong

that day. And I just felt out of control of it. And it was an odd thing because I'd often been, I'd often looked ugly. In many sketches, I love that. That isn't the problem at all. You know, that's almost our meat and potatoes. I've never been scared of that. I never was worried about what size I was. I would always manage to do whatever joke I wanted to do and be in charge of it. But on that particular day, and it was the only time it happened in all those years, I just felt humiliated. And I think lots of other things were going on at the same time. I think I was tired and I just got in my car on the way home and I thought, oh, I think that's done. But actually, there is a time when certain things are done. I think Jen and I might have been talking as well about what more sketches can we do?

We don't want to keep repeating ourselves. Let's move on to pastures new together and separately. So it was the right time. It was the right time. But it was a curious moment when I felt that I was the butt of the joke rather than in control of the joke. And also because you've been so liberated, I mean, there's that idea sometimes of getting ahead of the joke, you know, and how you present yourself as a woman. But you have been so liberated at the same time.

Yeah. It must have been a very curious feeling. Yeah, it was. And to this day, I don't quite understand it. I just know that sort of things conspired to make me make that decision that day. And Jennifer has never argued it. She said, OK, fine.

And that friendship as well. I mean, it's a real love. It's a real love. It's love. You know, we fell in love at college and we are friends, very close friends. We've been through everything together, births and deaths and parents and, you know, infertility and divorce. And, you know, we've been there for each other through all of it.

So you've got to remember that doing French and Saunders was a bit sort of cherry on the cake. That was a chance for us to show off together and be in the dressing up box at work. Well, Dawn, people will be coming to see you. Show off, if you like, as it were. In Dawn French is a huge twat. The twat files is the name of the book.

The Life of Mistakes, No Regrets. Delighted to have you on Women's Health today. Thank you so much. Come back again soon. Thank you as ever for your company. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. Hello, it's Amol. And I'm Nick and we're launching the Today podcast from Radio 4. Come in. What is it, Nick? Well, every week we're going to take a big subject we want to spend more time on because I don't know about you, when I present the Today programme,

I'm always thinking of things I wish I'd asked, I wish I'd heard. And this is going to give us the time to do that, to get more analysis, more insight, sometimes more gossip.

Same goes for me. I'm looking forward to this. Episodes will drop every Thursday. It's called the Today Podcast and you can listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.