Woman's Hour - Daytimers - South Asian ravers from the '80s, Sabina Nessa, School absence & mental health, Folic acid & Afghan refugees

Episode Date: September 24, 2021

The 80s was the era of day time raving for thousands of British South Asian Kids from cities across the UK from Bradford to Birmingham, Manchester to London. People called them Daytimers. They were kids skipping school to go clubbing in the daytime to avoid the rules imposed on them about going out at night. Forty years later, Daytimers UK is back as a collective of British Asian DJs. Anita Rani speaks to DJ RITU, one of the pioneers of the Asian Underground music scene in the 1980s, to DJ Priya and also to Gracie T from Daytimers UK collective. We talk to Annie Gibbs who's organising a vigil for Sabina Nessa, the 28 year old who was murdered in a south-east London park last week. Many children find themselves unable to attend school due to severe anxiety, often the result of mental health issues or unmet special educational needs. However, unless parents can provide medical evidence of mental health issues, some schools mark this down as an "unauthorised absence" leaving parents open to prosecution. We discuss with Ellie Costello, Director of Square Peg; Dr Mary Bousted, Joint General-Secretary of the National Education Union; and Colette, a parent. This week the government announced that folic acid is to be added to UK flour to prevent conditions like Spina Bifida. We hear from Benedetta Pettorini is a consultant surgeon at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital in Liverpool. Nina Tame is a disability advocate and writer. And we talk to Waheda Abdul a volunteer interpreter who is working with some of the Afghan refugees living in hotels and temporary accommodation around the country after fleeing from Kabul last monthPresenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Engineer: Gayl Gordon Picture Credit: Tim Smith

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Sabina Nessa, another young woman murdered, another life taken. There's been an outpouring of both sadness and anger on social media. Well, tonight a vigil will be held for Sabina, and I'll be speaking to the organisers. I'll also be talking to a mother who was fined by a local authority for keeping her child out of school, even though he was suffering from mental health issues. Well, I'd like to hear from you this morning. Have you had to keep your child out of school

because their mental health is suffering? How are they coping? How are you coping? And more importantly, how supportive have the school been? You can get in touch with us via text 84844. You can contact us via social media at BBC Woman's Hour and email us through our website. And it's Friday, so I thought we'd go out. And you know what? We don't even have to wait for the sun to go down. I'm dancing already. Today we are reviving The Daytimer, a club in the middle of the day. They began in the 80s so Asian kids who weren't allowed out at night could still

get their kicks, have a great time, be home in time for dinner, and their parents none the wiser. Well, veteran and legend of the South Asian scene, DJ Ritu will be joining me, along with two young female DJs continuing to fly the Daytimers flag, DJ Priya and Gracie T. If you were at a Daytimer, I would love for you to send me your memories. Maybe that blast of Bangra classic Jugni, the Balisogu remix from 1991, sent you back in time. Sophia has already tweeted to say, we had lunchtime Bangra do's near Bradford College in the early 90s. Felt like it was 2am in the club until the music stopped and you left to walk out into the bright sky just in time for afternoon lectures. You can text us about day timers or about anything you hear on the programme today.

I would love to hear your thoughts. The text number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate, so please do check with your provider for any extra costs. Of course, there's always social media, at BBC Woman's Hour, and if you would like to send us an email, then contact us through our website.

Now, tonight, there'll be a vigil for Sabina Nessa, the 28-year-old primary school teacher who was murdered in southeast London this time last week. Sabina's family called her the kindest, sweetest girl. On Wednesday, her sister tweeted, My beautiful, talented and caring sister. My inspiration to always put myself first and never let anybody put me down. Never in my life did I or my sisters or mum or dad think this could happen to us. May Allah grant her Jannah. Ameen. While Sabina's colleagues said she was a kind, caring and dedicated to her pupils. Today, a 38-year-old man arrested on suspicion of murder remains in custody. Met Police have also released an image of another man they'd like to speak to.

Well, we can speak to the lead organiser of tonight's vigil, Annie Gibbs, who lives in Kidbrook, where Sabina was found. Annie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Very good morning. Tell me about the plans for tonight. What are you hoping for? Good morning. Thank you very much for sharing that about the image, because that's something that's really quite important. Burra Commander said this morning that we must keep getting that message out there for people to come forward. So this evening, we are very much focused on honouring Sabina. We are very much focused on ensuring that she is well and truly respected and that her family know absolutely that she was a wonderful person that was a part of our community and that our heart is with them so we will be meeting at seven in Pegla Square we'll be starting at seven. We believe people will be arriving beforehand.

And we will be having a very calm, peaceful visual where we will have some speakers and we will also have a lovely poem read. And then we'll invite our faith leader to lead us into a minute's silence around 8.30pm. How many people do you expect? We're expecting, the police suggested over 500. That's what we should expect this evening. It could be more.

But we are encouraging people that, you know, aren't local to us to 100% stand in solidarity with us from their home um i've had message from somebody who said that you know she will do a buddhist ritual you know in solidarity so for us the focus is not so much about it being candles or anything it's just we want to recognize and honor that she was a human being that existed in our community and she needs to be honoured. And her name remembered, Sabina. And her name remembered. And we just want people to just, if you are standing with us

and you're not with us in person, just say her name. Please just keep saying her name. Well, on the programme yesterday, Annie, we spoke to the Policing Minister, Kit Malthouse, who highlighted the number of women. We highlighted the number of women in the UK who have been killed this year alone by men, 106. Staggering.

It is staggering. Will you be remembering them as well? 100%. One of our organis organizers and part of our kid group community Emma um she's purchased um purple ribbons so we will be wearing purple ribbons in solidarity um against all violence that's you know against women um and it's also a royal color so you know we want to ensure that that message is loud and clear, that our women are royalty.

And we will also be handing them out. So people that come tonight, those that have enough, we've got enough to give to, will get a ripple when they arrive, a purple ribbon. So that's Emma Maloney. We put that forward. I mean, you know mean there's so many conversations taking place about this on social media

and the ripple effects are being felt across the country but it must be so important for the local community to be able to stand together in solidarity at the moment 100% I mean we could become divided and actually we have remained united and that's

something that's so so important especially for me to make sure that that message is very clear is that we're such a loving community and we don't experience this kind of thing in our community you know just to give you an idea of the type of people that live here you know there are people here that when I'm sick I'm a single mum will make sure my child is fed or make sure I've got medicine you know um so that's the that's the type of community that we live in so I'm proud that we have all remained united um and we all will continue to work together and also the external support that we've had from within the borough um it's just been absolutely just amazing um so we're just so grateful um for everybody to to want to be one heart with us i mean i know we're not in the same tight lockdown

situation compared to when sarah everard's vigil was held in March. But have the police told you how they intend to approach policing tonight? They're not policing. They will be with us because what a lot of people don't realise is that the police that are here are people that are here often with us in our community. So they are standing with us. So they're not policing. And we as the community are

leading um the vigil ourselves alongside the um the state management team at berkeley homes um they will be supporting us with marshalling and i will be there marshalling as well um so you know um it's it's not not about policing at all tonight. Tonight, it really is just about us being one. And the police are with us. They've been incredible. Like I've, you know, the borough commander, I've spoken to him several times this week, even this morning.

And what have those conversations been about? So those have really been about just checking and making sure that, you know, I've got the right level of support emotionally, that I've got, you know, the right level of support for, you know, delivering regards to like safety. They assisted us with getting the PA system from a local group, you know, just being really supportive, listening also to our concerns, because naturally people are going to have concerns because this hasn't happened to our community. And they have been quite swift in responding to some of these concerns. So, yeah, they've been brilliant, really, really brilliant.

Now, Annie, I'm sure you're aware there's been lots of conversations, certainly earlier in the week, about why certain parts of the media have been slow to cover sabina's murder compared to sarah everard so i'd like to know what you think about that sure i mean that's the reason why i took to twitter initially because i just could not understand why i live in this community and nobody really knows about it so if nobody really knows about it you know how are we going to get that message out there that we need to get information to find this person um so that was a disappointment to me um but I think since a lot of those conversations are being had I think there's definitely traction has built up and we are starting to get closer aren't we to that justice we've now got the suspects so you know we can be grateful that

people have picked up on this and are coming forward um so it's not for me it's not about you know blaming or saying people are doing things wrong we've we've identified there's an issue and we've reacted and responded to it and let's just hope that this will be a key example moving forward you know that anything that um happens within our community um that everyone is equally um respected and wanting to get justice for um and when i say our community, I mean our black and Asian community. And I just have to be completely real with that. I think you should. This is Women's Hour.

We should be able to have very real conversations. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, hopefully this is a real example that is going to create some change. Yeah. The vigil's taking place tonight, but for people listening who can't make it, real example that is going to create some change. The vigil's taking place tonight, but for people listening who can't make it, what can they do? Because there is a lot of outpouring of both sadness and anger and people feel they might feel they want to do something.

So what can they do if they can't make it this evening? If they can't make it this evening, we encourage you to stand in solidarity with us from your home and you create that safe space for yourself to honour her, if that means lighting a candle and viewing the live stream, because I've been informed that there will be some live streaming. Or if you want to go out with your local community I know there are people I know in Scotland at Gemma Gould I've seen a lovely message that she's created a local community visual as well so just do what your heart feels that you can do to stand in solidarity

with us and just keep saying her name, Sabina Nisar. Annie, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. It's my pleasure. Thank you so much. Now this week, the government announced that folic acid is to be added to UK flour to prevent conditions such as spina bifida in babies. Women are advised that getting enough folic acid around conception and during pregnancy

can lower the chance of babies being born with spina bifida or other neural tube disabilities. Well, Benedetta Petterini is a consultant surgeon at Alder Hay Children's Hospital in Liverpool and Nina Tame is a disability advocate and writer. And they both join me now to discuss this news and their reactions to it. Benedetta, I'm going to come to you first, if I may. Why are pregnant women encouraged to take folic acid? What difference does it make? Hi, thank you very much. Right, it is now a long time that we know that implementation with folic acid reduces the incidence of what we call neural tube defects. So what happens in the first month of embryology of

the fetus, the brain and spine is formed like a plaque and within a month the plaque closes forming a tube and the lack of folic acid could potentially represent a risk for disclosure not to happen properly. So that leads to embryology problems leading to severe malformations such as open spina bifida, what is called myelomeningocele, or a very severe malformation of the brain called anencephaly, so lack of formation of the brain, which are very complex and severe malformations. And there is enough evidence and science behind the use of folic acid and its ability to reduce this incidence. And this is done elsewhere in other countries, isn't it?

Absolutely, yes. In the States, it's been several decades now that food implementation has been considered the most successful option. A different option supplement is dietary changes and the food implementation and this have been always considered the main options to implement folic acid for women trying to get pregnant. I'm going to bring Nina in. Now, Nina, you as someone with spina bifida, what's your reaction to this news? Hi, thanks for having me on. I think firstly, I have no issue with, you know, the flower being fortified with, you know, with sort of people being encouraged to take folic

acid. My issue is with the language and the discourse that's always used around spina bifida. So this week, for example, you know, I've heard it referred to as devastating, as life-threatening, as, you know, this lifelong impairment, and it's always cloaked in so much tragedy and fear. And so for me, I'm an adult with spina bifida. I'm a full-time wheelchair user. I'm also a mum of four children, one who happens to with spina bifida. I'm a full time wheelchair user. I'm also a mum of four children, one who happens to have spina bifida as well. I've got a job that I love, friends that I adore, a partner that I still really fancy. And we've been together for 10 years. You know, it's a good it's a good life.

And I think adults with spina bifida are erased from these conversations you know within the community that I work in there are many adults with spina bifida leading really really good lives and I think what's often missed in these kind of conversations is that folic acid doesn't prevent all types of spina bifida so when I had my son the very first thing the doctor said to me when he came to see us the next day before he'd even said hello was did you you take folic acid? Now, had I been somebody that hadn't, or maybe somebody who'd taken it after I'd conceived, I would have been left with so much kind of guilt. And it was only sort of six months later when we went to see my son's specialist at Great Ormond Street that he said to us, well, your type of spina bifida and your son's type of spina bifida isn't affected by folic acid and I've had so many parents message me to tell me

how guilty they've been made to feel that this is somehow kind of their fault and I just think that spina bifida isn't necessarily a death sentence it doesn't have all disability is wrapped up in tragedy and how we talk about it like it's this terrible thing where actually for me and a lot of the people and the other adults that I talk to my spina bifida my medical impairment it doesn't actually cause me that much challenges what calls me causes me the most challenges is you know lack of adequate health care it's lack of access to work to education you, for me popping to the shops to get a loaf of bread. It's all the weird attitudes. And I think that there's never kind of any room in these conversations around spina bifida for neutrality

to see it that, you know, walking doesn't necessarily equal happiness. And I feel a lot of parents are kind of robbed of the chance to enjoy their pregnancies because there's so much fear put around it. I'm going to bring you back in there Benedetta what about this idea that it was going to lead to a lot of mums feeling guilty if they're asked whether they took the folic acid? Yeah well absolutely right the folic acid only prevents a particular types of spina bifida only the open kind of spina bifida, only the open kind of spina bifida. Any other kind of, which we call spina bifida occulta, don't have anything to do with folic acid.

So I agree that communication, folic and spina bifida, needs to be described better and be more in detail with what we're talking about. Now, there is also, on the other hand, a big variability of conditions related in particular to the myelomeningocele. And the variability is predominantly around the functional and anatomical outcome. In up to 15 patients with myelomeningocele, this condition is life-threatening because it's not a spinal malformation only, it is a central nervous system malformation. So malformation of the brain as well and cerebellum. So I do a lot of fetal consultations to mums that are pregnant and want to know everything about

and make a very informed decision and actually to be prepared to face what they're going to face later on. And the discussion is up to 15% you can have a very bad outcome. 85% very variable outcome, including wheelchair-bound. I have a lot of children who are actually able to walk. So the problem is that we can't predict what kind of functional outcome every single case of open spinal bifida will have. Nina, how were you treated during your pregnancy once you found out that your son also has the condition? So we found out in my 20 week scan, we were told that, you know, he might not be able to walk, he might not have, you know, he might have continence issues,

he might have cognitive impairment issues, we don't know the severity. And we were offered a termination of the pregnancy, which for somebody who has spina bifida and, you know, I don't see my spot. I don't see that I live a fulfilling life despite my spina bifida. It affects, you know, it's who I am and I wouldn't be me without it. So I think, you know, me and my partner were just like, no, of course we don't want to terminate. You know, this is a very wanted baby. And again, every single parent that I've spoke to has had exactly the same story that they were taught you know they were delivered the news at the 20-week scan they were not told you know they

were told that they're not necessarily um you know the doctors didn't know how severe it would be and they were immediately offered determination and we were offered determination I think at subsequently another three appointments um I think the abortion rate for spina bifida is something like 85% of parents who get the diagnosis choose to have a termination. And that also, you know, I feel it's not an informed choice. We were never sort of said, hey, this is what it could be. Why don't you go away and talk to another adult with spina bifida? And, you know, so you can make this real informed choice. What does that do for you and for your son who both live as you say you live very fulfilling lives with with the condition when you hear figures like that or you know the conversation

we're having what what does it make you feel? It just makes me feel sad because I think for not just Spina Bifida for all the people within the community that I you know I mean you know for all disabled people our lives are always painted as tragic as, you know, my wheelchair, I don't see as a sad thing, like, my wheelchair gives me freedom, it gives me joy. And I just, I think for a lot of us, you know, we're underestimated, it seemed that we have these awful, terrible lives when actually, we don't, you know, of course, there's times when my spina bifida presents challenges to me but as i said earlier the societal challenges are so much bigger and i often wonder the kind of money and everything that's put into these campaigns around prevention and folic acid

and all of this spina bifida always exist and i just you know i'd love to see some of that energy and money and everything else put into supporting the adults who are here and living with Spina Bifida now, who would be living much better lives if the services, you know, in this country were better for them. Benedetta, do you think there's enough support for parents? Well, I work in a standalone children's hospital and I think I can proudly say we do offer, I think, a great amount of support to our children. On the other hand, I do know that the transition from the paediatric care to the adult care, in particular in the community, is very challenging. There is a massive difference in the kind of effort and resources from children when I think it's amazing. I think the NHS provides an amazing care but as I said the transition to the adult I think needs to be reviewed and urgently. This doesn't

mean that implementing a vitamin and undo our best to prevent this malformation shouldn't be done. But I agree that the same amount of effort should be put in better community care. And Nina, I just want to ask you what your reaction is to the Heidi Crowther case. Heidi Crowther has Down syndrome. She took a case to the High Court yesterday over the right to have an abortion right up to birth. But she didn't win the case what what do you make of that? I think it's really sad um I always start these conversations with saying I'm very pro-choice and you know I had an abortion myself in my sort of early 20s because I wasn't ready to be a parent um but I think you know I think it should be the same for people with Down syndrome for people with spina bifida for these conditions it should be the same cut-off point as a, you know, I think it should be the same for people with Down syndrome, for people with spina bifida, for these conditions.

It should be the same cut off point as a child, you know, without this condition. Yeah, I think it was I felt really I really felt for them as well as they put so much of themselves into it. And it just must have been devastating, you know, basically saying a life like yours isn't worth living. And that is just so far from the truth. And I just think it's really sad. It will be a subject matter we will be coming back to, no doubt, on Woman's Hour. Nina and Bernadette, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. 84844 is the number to text now. 15,000 people were evacuated by the RAF from Afghanistan a month ago, and they're now living in temporary accommodation and hotels up and down the UK. One person who's been working as a

volunteer interpreter with some of the women and families who've escaped is Wahida Abdul. She herself was a refugee who came to the UK 25 years ago and she joins us now. Wahida, welcome to Woman's Hour. Why did you want to help? How did you get involved? Basically, I got involved through the school. My son goes to a church school and one of the workers there, the teachers, they were looking for interpreters on that day because a lot of people came to Hilton Hotel. They were allocated there. And when they were allocated there, they had no clue. Obviously, like everybody else, when you come into this country, you don't know what's what.

So a lot of them didn't speak a lot of English. So the teachers from the school called me and said to me, do you know what, we need interpreters. Are you available? So I went in and I interpreted for some of the families there. And how were they feeling when you spoke to them? They were relieved in a way, because obviously it's quite difficult. The communication barrier is quite a difficult one if you don't understand um what's you know somebody's saying and you know the the interactions and stuff like that so that's I think that's very very important so when they knew that I spoke the language they were a bit more comfortable and they can express

you know the women um were able to express themselves um and um uh getting to know them. You know, one of the families, they were apart for 20 years. So they had like eight kids, which is a lot. But, you know, it was amazing to know the background of how they came about. And share some of those stories with us. What were their main concerns? What were they talking to you about? Basically, the accommodation, where they're going to be placed, because obviously they're concerned about some of the families

that are very, very big. They're not one or two people. They're very large families. They've got a lot of kids. And a lot of them, they were worried about where they were going to be placed and whether they were going to be together um and you know the the i think the financial side as well because you know they don't know the language they don't know if they can find work and stuff like that yeah so their main concerns are accommodation and finance where will they live i mean there's some reports that they might be having they might

have to stay in temporary accommodation for every year because the count there are no spaces or homes in local councils aren't offering up places are these the sorts of conversations that they are having um not at the moment at the moment i think the one of the main concerns for them is to get the essentials that they need for instance the right clothing, because a lot of them, I know a lot of people have been very, very generous. And I might want to do my part and thank them for, you know, donating and being so thoughtful. There's so many donations coming in. But it's obviously because they've come from an Islamic country, they would want something that is appropriate to their needs. And a lot of them were complaining that they don't have no sleeves.

The tops are too short. The jeans are too tight and stuff like that. So, you know, it's it's I think that's what they're worried about, what they're wearing. And I think they did mention that they don't think that the hotel has any laundry facilities. So they needed more donation of clothes so that they can go day by day. It's really hard to imagine, isn't it? I mean, not for you, Wahida, because you've lived it. You were nine years old when you went left Afghanistan. Just what that must be like to have to leave your country, leave your family,

leave your friends, leave your home and just land in a foreign country. I mean, they must be absolutely terrified and also deeply worried about what's happening back home in Afghanistan. Yeah, I mean, I've got a lot of family there, to be honest with you. And the stories that I'm hearing is quite frightening um but um i think it is quite scary here as well to for somebody to come in into the country new um and not know the language not know what is what and you know it's it's very very difficult i'm sure that you know um all the all the families are feeling a bit uncomfortable at the moment. I think it takes a bit of time. It's going to take about six months until they get used to the language

and settling here and things. What stories are you hearing? Well, there was a pregnant lady. She was very worried about her parents because she'd come here with her husband. Her husband had visited because somebody had passed away and he brought them here. But she told me the stories of where, when she was,

I don't know if you saw on the news, where they were standing on the dirt, in the water, when they were, you know, the soldiers were trying to collect the families and allocate the families into the airplane. That, for me, I think that was terrifying. And she also said, she did mention that she had been sleeping on the floor with her kids for two days.

So it's quite upsetting to hear that, to be honest with you, that they didn't have anywhere to sleep but on the floor and also that they had to stand there and wait for their soldiers to call them out. And she was worried about her family's back home and she's scared about their well-being. And what advice are you able to give them from your own experience? What do you say to them? To be honest with you, I think for me, when I first came here, it took quite, I did feel kind of depressed because I was away from where I was used to. It was very upsetting for me. But I say to them, all I could say for them is it's going to take time. You are going to feel it's OK to feel like this, but it's going to take time. You're just going to, you know, you're going to overcome time you are going to feel it's okay to feel like this but it's going to take time you're just gonna you know you're going to overcome these feelings it's not it's not an easy

thing you know being away from family being away from you know the the atmosphere that you're used to so um it will it will take time that's what i've i've been um saying to them well he did thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. You're welcome. Now, as children have been returning to school across the country, many find themselves unable to attend due to severe school-based anxiety, often the result of mental health issues or unmet special educational needs. However, unless parents can provide medical evidence of mental health issues, some schools mark this down as an unauthorised absence, leaving parents open to prosecution unless they force their children to attend school.

However, obtaining medical evidence from CAMHS, Children and Adolescent Mental Health Services, or an educational health and care plan can be a long and difficult process. Somebody who's lived through the experience of this is Colette. And Colette joins us now. Good morning, Colette. Let's talk about your son. He was struggling with severe school anxiety when he started secondary school. So what happened? Well, basically, he started at the high school, a mainstream one. Within six weeks, he was starting with the school refusal.

So the headaches, the feeling sick, that I'm too tired to go. Just the general not wanting to be in school. So what did you do? What did I do? I tried to get him into school. The attendance officer was coming round to try and talk him into school. For a few weeks, when they did come around, he sort of like became obedient and got dressed

and then went into school. Because he masks so well in school, he sort of like goes under the radar. He is diagnosed with ADHD and autism, so things do affect him differently to to normal kids um we just went to hell and back because as soon as he started on the school refusal and the teachers making him go into school um he became violent his behavior was exceptionally challenging at home he was attacking me he was pushing walls walls. He was smashing tellies.

But the teachers didn't see that the anxiety was manifesting as violence. They just saw him as a kid that was, you know, coping. And you were eventually prosecuted by local authorities. What happened? How long had he been out of school? how long had you been out of school how long have you been out of school i would i would say it was a few months that i'd been out of school and i got fined and then how much how much were you fined

oh it was one of the 60 pound if you pay within so many or 120 right um and then after that I got issued with um well it was effectively an attendance contract to basically say that we will prosecute you again if you don't get him to come in 100 during the next I think it was about two. And I mean, that was just a non-starter because it wasn't going to happen. Having said that, I did end up going to court about it. I gave my own evidence. And it was the first time that I felt that I was actually listened to or understood was by the magistrate, which seeing that we've been dealing with cans and school and I'd actually asked for help from social services and they'd all just turned against me

and what toll did all of this experience take on you oh gosh I'm still recovering and we're talking three years ago now that all this was going on and I can't work I'm a qualified social worker I can't work and it just emotionally broke me and financially broke me as well because I was having to see solicitors and it's yeah it just absolutely broke me and what about your son now is he in a more suitable educational environment is he doing okay my son's absolutely doing brilliantly now and he he had a year of me unschooling him so I deregistered him from school at the beginning of year nine so we got school off our back we got everybody off our back um and it took a year to get his sleep pattern back to normal because he'd gone nocturnal and to actually start socializing i mean

he doesn't like socializing at the best of times but i took him to zoos i took him to places like that because i know he's interested in animals um and at the beginning of year 10 he started at a what i would describe as an outdoor college um just doing a foundation course he he loved it up there there was only about six people in the class um never more than 40 on site at a time um and he's just thriving from there he's now working on a farm when he's not at college he's doing his animal studies level two he's just yeah it's amazing what the right environment has done for him amazing to hear that actually colette thank you very much for sharing that experience with us well also to discuss this are ellie costello director of square peg a campaign group that

raises awareness of children struggling with barriers to attendance, and Dr. Mary Boustead, the Joint General Secretary for the National Education Union. Good morning to you both. Mary, I'm going to come to you first. Colette's experience just sounds absolutely horrific. Should attendance be a criminal justice issue? No. In the vast majority of cases, no, it shouldn't. I mean, there are times,

but I think they are very few and far between, where parents are not ensuring that their children get to school and children have a right to be educated and educating is really important. And there the state does need to step in because children have a right to be educated and educating is really important and there the state does need to step in because you know children have a right to be educated and to develop the skills and the knowledge and to be in a safe place and the socialization that school brings but the vast majority of times when children are not at any school instead of a fine and a criminal justice system, there needs to be a conversation between the school and the parents about what the problem is. And schools are getting better at having those conversations and getting this good practice, which I think needs to be shared more widely.

Messages are already coming in. 84844 is the number to text. We've got one here saying saying my children's father died suddenly when our youngest was nine so a couple of years before my youngest daughter started high school during the last few years she struggled increasingly and terribly during covid lockdown self-harm isolation eating disorder and behavioral changes the school response was really patchy but then improved during the second lockdown individual teachers however can be either wonderful or shocking. Keep your messages coming in. I'm going to bring in Ellie. Ellie, why are some children not attending school?

Just explain what's happening. I think what we've got is a bit of a public health crisis on our hands because we have children who are struggling to access the education system broadly. We've got an agenda that is rooted in behaviorism control zero tolerance the sanction and endorsement of restraint in schools that was a question was raised in parliament just last week around the rising numbers of children with mental health which went to the vicky ford before the shuffle and um and the response was yes it's a problem but you know there are measures to um manage behavior and this includes the use of physical

restraint exclusion and isolation so if you've got this pressure cooker environment, couple that with massive high focus on a certain type of attainment and success. The Mind Report talked about seven in 10 children are struggling to attend due to academic pressure, bullying. It's a massively tight system that our children are actually holding a mirror up to us. And what we are seeing is we frame the stress responses in three ways. So a flight response is exclusion is a truancy. Sorry. A fight response is exclusion and flop drop is the largest number by far collapsed. Those children who have been coping for so long and they are actually

in a state of collapse it's a mental illness it's not that they won't go to school it's that they can't and the system isn't flexible enough to respond to them. And what do parents have to do to prove that their child is suffering with some kind of mental health issue? There's a real tension in the system. So we've got attendance guidance and designated safeguarding leads. And there are all of these tensions within the system where school must be seen to safeguard. Number one, as Mary said, there is the duty of care there. But often the onus is placed in doubting the family. And far too often, schools are not recognising mental health as being an authentic and truthful reason for non-attendance. There's no parity of esteem between mental health being a disability in which it is.

And there's huge amounts of discrimination because we have so much behaviourism rooted through this child is just being lazy, mum doesn't really care. It's just absolutely not true and the numbers speak to them for themselves. We've got almost a million children marked as persistently absent and these aren't the same as the children in the excluded figures. We absolutely need to talk about and really start analysing the gaps in the data because far too many children are marked as we don't actually know or refuse to authorise. Mary, that's a huge figure, a million children. What needs to happen to change this? I think a lot of things need to happen. I'd agree with a lot of what's been said. The problem for many schools is that because of the funding cuts in schools,

because of the delays to children and adolescent mental health services, I mean, since the lockdown, the waiting lists have gone up by about 200,000 children waiting. You're often waiting for months and months and months. You have to be really severely mentally ill to get an appointment. So there's real delay in diagnosis of what the problem is. So what support do schools and teachers need? Because obviously this is on the increase,

the levels of mental health problems, as we've just heard from Ellie, and they're only going in one direction. What needs to happen to help schools? Well, we need we need schools to be better funded so that schools can employ family ladies and officers they can employ counsellors they can employ specialist help it's a very big ask to ask teachers who are teaching full-time to also be mental health experts it's not realistic Although teachers and support staff and leaders, I think in most cases, do all they can to support children who are finding access to school difficult.

They really do all they can. But there aren't enough resources. I would also say that a lot of what's been said about the pressure cooker environment of schools, that is a real problem. That's absolutely right. But I would I would also say finally we've got the largest class sizes in Europe we've got some of those private schools in Europe we need to have we need to have smaller class sizes and we do need to look at how we can fund schools so that they can support children and families who are finding it difficult to be there much better we're also calling for a mental health authorization code for illness so that we're starting to track the numbers of children unable to attend and that schools are able to authorize absence because at the moment there's a lot of confusion that they can't for mental health

well mary bostead ali costello and collect thank you all three of you for speaking to me this morning um and i know we'll be coming back to this on woman's hour if you want to share your experience then please do get in touch with us. We'd love to hear from you if this is something you're experiencing or going through right now. 84844 is the number to text or if you want to send us an email, then go to our website. And we do have a statement from the government. A government spokesperson said education remains a national priority and being in school is vital both for young people's education and for their mental health. Where a pupil does not attend, the school, family and local authorities

should work together to agree a plan to ensure the pupil can return to regular attendance. As usual, headteachers can grant leaves of absence for pupils in exceptional circumstances. We're investing £79 million to expand children's mental health services and through our long-term plan, an additional 345,000 children will be able to access NHS funded support by 2024. But like I said, we would like to hear from you right now, though. I'm going to take you back 40 years to the 80s. Remember them? MTV had just landed.

We watched Madonna's Like a Prayer video on repeat. Still brilliant to this day. Dance music was making its way to our shores and into the clubs. And if you're a girl from a South Asian family, getting out to a club at night wasn't that straightforward. But kids will always find a way to party and to swerve the small issue of having to tell your parents what you're up to.

The Daytimer was born, a club in the day. British South Asian kids from across the country, from Bradford to Birmingham, Manchester to London, were bunking off school or college to go rave it up and still be home in time for Ruddy. They were jumping around to bangra bangers like this. Actually that is Gracie T's Boiler Room Mix Gracie T is from the new wave of Daytimers UK Collective, well the Daytimer lasted for around 20 years and then they disappeared Gracie T is from the new wave of Daytimers UK collective.

Well, the Daytimer lasted for around 20 years and then they disappeared. But now they are back. Daytimers UK is a new music collective made up of British South Asian DJs taking inspiration from the daytime raves of the 80s and 90s. They're reviving the way South Asian heritage and culture are displayed in public life. Well, I'm joined now by DJ Rithu, one of the pioneers of the scene and Gracie T from the New Daytimers UK Collective. A very good morning to you both. Rithu, I'm going to come to you first. Daytime raves, right? Let's explain to people who have no idea what they were, what was going on? Well, they were incredible places to be in. They started, as you said, Anita, in the 1980s. They happened all over the UK. in broad daylight and then you'd go indoors to one of these raves where there might be anything between hundreds to thousands of young Asian people and it was just like being in a nightclub and people were dancing to the sounds of the of the Bhangra bands that were huge at the time. Yeah, absolutely amazing. I played at one of those raves at the Hammersmith Palais. Oh, yeah, look, lots of people are messaging in on Twitter, actually.

Someone's just said, I used to bunk off school to go to the Hammersmith Palais. Someone else has said, yep, in Leicester. No, Leicester Square, Equinox. What's her name? Am, she was 16. And someone else has said, we'd go to Wolverhampton, Birmingham City Centre, West Bromwich it was the 90s in those days, all the

Bangor groups would perform in person blooming great, people are having a great time reminiscing, a real moment in South Asian youth culture Definitely definitely and let's not forget how the day timers came about in the

80s a lot of venues didn't see Asian promoters as being a viable prospect. And so consequently, the only slots that were offered to these promoters were a daytime option, usually a weekday option and not primetime weekends either. And then what happened in the 90s was the day timers became night timers. And that was like what the music scene moved on, did it? The music scene moved on. I think we were regarded as commercially viable. And one of the first regular clubs to open in the 90s was in fact in September 1993. And it was Bombay Jungle at the Wag Club in Wardour Street. It was a huge two floor venue.

There was 700 South Asian kids packed inside and another 700 outside that couldn't get in. And when you were in the building, I mean, it was just hot, sweaty, euphoric clubbers, hands in the air, absolutely amazing. And the music policy was not just Bhangra. It was Bhangra, it was hip-hop, it was raga, swing, R&B and jungle. And then what happened to them? Where did they disappear to? What happened? Well, the night time clubs continued.

Nothing really ever disappeared. But I think what did happen was when we look at perhaps after we get into the 2000s, I think media interest started to wane. There was actually two types or more than two types, maybe, of nighttime activity as far as the British Asian music scene was concerned. You had the Bhangra clubs and you also had the Asian underground ones, which kicked off mostly around the east end of London. There were events being run by sound systems like Joy and State of Bengal in community centres in East London. And then you had the first regular night, which began at the Blue Note in Hoxton, which at that time was called the Bass Club. And that was on Tuesday nights. And it was from 1992, run by the Joy Sound System.

Brilliant. Stepping into my era now, loving this. We're getting a really good history lesson of sort of South Asian youth culture in the UK. And then let's bring it up to the modern day. I'm going to bring in two young female DJs, DJ Priya and Gracie T, who have formed the new collective called Daytimers UK. Morning to both of you. Let me bring you into this discussion. Gracie, let me come to you first. Why did you set up Daytimers?

How did this all come about? Hi, thanks so much for having us. So it's lovely to hear from Ritu about the history of it, because obviously we're here in the present day trying to create a resurgence uh so Daytimers was set up about a year ago now um Propat and Sherwin they reached out to a group of us um who were all kind of finding ways to reconnect with our culture so we're all involved with music already and a lot of us were in very kind of white male spheres in our different cities and we decided you know we need to create this space again for South Asian artists whether that

be music or art or fashion we need to create that space for ourselves again specifically people who identify as female or non-binary or trans we need to create that new space again for them it came at a time that I was fairly established in Sheffield and music and it gave me joy to just talk with other brown people about something that I loved so much. But Priya how about you what inspired you to get into DJing it was someone in the family wasn't it? Yeah, so growing up, my auntie was actually a DJ, one of my biggest inspirations. To be honest, I never actually thought I would become a DJ or planned on DJing and I kind of fell into it. Literally, you know, social media, I saw an advert on Facebook. It really was like the butterfly effect I clicked on it and

here I am I love it and what is that feeling like because I've seen I've been following you guys from the very beginning and I've seen the energy and the vibe you create in those rooms and like you say all those and it's not just brown kids it's kids from all backgrounds but lots of Asian faces in one room what does that feel like when like you say Gracie when you've just been growing up in very white environments to all of a sudden be surrounded by kids room. What does that feel like? Like you say, Gracie, when you've just been growing up in very white environments to all of a sudden be surrounded by kids like you,

what does that do? Yeah, for me, because I'm mixed race and I'm from like a very small town in the Northeast, that's never been something that I've grown up around. So for me, like Boiler Room, being there with Pri was just,

I just felt elated. It was just amazing. Like at the end of it, we all went to the green room, cut a cake and just cried because it was just so lovely. I love that. We cut a cake. That's my kind of night out. Cup of tea and a slice of cake.

And no, Rithi, you're smiling away. Is this bringing back memories? Well, I don't remember us ever cutting a cake and having a cup of tea. Yeah, we consumed lots of other things, to be honest. But I do absolutely relate to that sense of feeling like you found your tribe and finding comfort zones and places where we can be who we are in a really, you know, in a really nice way. I've dedicated an entire chapter to it in my book. I think I'm allowed to mention my book once in my career on Woman's Hour. Rithu, where are the women in this scene? I know we're talking to you, which is brilliant.

And I know, you know, it's really important to the Daytimers Collective now to sort of mention the people who came before. But where are the women? Surely there were sort of mention the people who came before but where are the women surely there were lots of I know there were lots of women involved well as women we were in a minority uh on the British Asian music scene um but um those of us that were there uh I think were incredibly influential um We played an enormous role in shaping the development of the scene and sustaining it, I think, and also making it the success that it was. I mean, this was one of the most vibrant music scenes to come out of British music history ever.

And yet, why does it still feel so niche? You know, it's not talked about. It's not really people don't know about it. Why is it not sort of seen right up there as any other youth movement in the UK? I think we were too busy making history and not saying that we were making history. We were too busy doing

and we were challenging a. We were too busy doing and we were challenging a lot of the status quo, politically, socially, the stereotypes around us as South Asian people and the second generation or so in the diaspora. So we were kind of busy. I think the media perceived us as they perceived us and they perceive us now as they perceive us. And at that time, we were also very, very dependent on press coverage. This is pre-social media times. You know, we relied on journalists and photographers and so on to tell our stories and to explain what we were doing. And some of that was accurate and some of it was not so. And then they lost interest.

Not now, though, because the Daytimers UK collective are back and they're being very noisy about it. Your boiler room set was brilliant, both of you. Do you know what really stands out for me as well? I'm looking at your Instagram account. This popped up and I noticed this, is how you are creating, you have a mission, a dance floor safer space mission. Tell us about that, Gracie.

Yeah, so with our safe space policy, Priya's really involved with this as well we we looked at the way the music scene is functioning at the moment and it's still kind of full of the same same heads running things gatekeeping everything you know it's not just who's playing the nights it's people at the nights and i think as female identifying d, we don't always feel safe on a night out. I don't always feel safe at a gig. And through Daytimers, we've suddenly had kind of the platform and the resources to change that and create the safe space that we want to see all over the music industry, not just at Daytimers events.

I know, it's absolutely brilliant reading through the basically things like just very polite. If you want to walk past somebody, you know, say excuse me or just tap them on the shoulder. Very different experience when I was going out clubbing. Priya, there's an iconic photograph that we've put on all our social media here at Woman's Hour of DJ Radical Sister Rani Kaur. And that photograph really inspired you guys, didn't it? And that photograph is from the 80s. Yeah, definitely. really inspired you guys didn't it and that photograph is from the 80s yeah definitely so just to see history being captured like that and to know that we can even recreate little moments you know obviously Gracie's Boiler Room Show she's playing in a Lenga I'm playing in my um well I'm

not playing but it feels like I did to honest, but everybody was in their cultural clothes. And I never ever thought I would ever have that, you know, being able to go to a show, feeling safe in my own clothes, surrounded by people that I care about. It's been absolutely incredible. And that is also a photo that I have seen before. It's so iconic. You know, my musty has shown you that photo before. So to know that me and my friends, we all are inspired by the same photo. It's just such a lovely feeling. I'll never be able to describe how amazing it is. Oh, it's been such a pleasure talking to all three of you, Ritu, Gracie T and Priya. Thank you very much. And thank you for listening. Have a lovely weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.